The First Prime: 1 or 2?

[RAMcGough]

But I will remain open to all possibilities, keeping in mind Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

That is not a right translation, Richard

It even is misleading

(what else to be expected from KJV?)

Greek
ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα

ῥῆμα = spoken word
https://biblehub.com/greek/4487.htm

notably present in LXX Deuteronomy 8:8, cited in Matthew 4:4
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν, Γέγραπται, Οὐκ ἐπ' ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ' ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος θεοῦ


and it occurs also right in the next verse Luke 1:38
εἶπεν δὲ Μαριάμ, Ἰδοὺ ἡ δούλη κυρίου· γένοιτό μοι κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου. καὶ ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτῆς ὁ ἄγγελος.

same in Luke 2:29 in the speech of Simeon - "the one who hears"
Νῦν ἀπολύεις τὸν δοῦλόν σου, δέσποτα, κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου ἐν εἰρήνῃ·

I disagree Geert. Have you forgotten that rema and davar can both be used to mean "thing" or "the matter at hand"?

This is common knowledge. Here's how Grok explains it:

The Greek word ῥῆμα (rhēma, or "rema") in Luke 1:37 carries a rich, dual meaning: it denotes a spoken utterance or declaration, but also extends to the "thing," "matter," or "event" that the word describes. In the verse—"For no rhēma from God will be impossible" (or "nothing will be impossible with God")—it refers to God's promise or decree to Mary about the virgin birth, emphasizing that divine speech is not abstract but performative and reliable, becoming the tangible reality it announces. This usage echoes the Septuagint (LXX), where rhēma frequently translates the Hebrew דָּבָר (davar) in passages like Genesis 18:14 ("Is any davar too hard for the LORD?"), rendered in the LXX as "mē adunatēsei para tō theō rhēma." Luke deliberately echoes this phrasing to parallel Mary's miraculous conception with Sarah's, highlighting God's power over any "matter" or "thing at hand" He declares.

Both rhēma and davar share this semantic breadth because, in biblical thought, words—especially God's—are inseparable from action and outcome. Davar in Hebrew means both "word" (speech, command, promise) and "thing/matter/affair/event" (the concrete reality or issue involved), as seen in verses like Isaiah 55:11 where God's davar accomplishes its purpose without failing. The LXX translators chose rhēma for davar in many such contexts, carrying this Hebrew worldview into Greek: divine speech shapes and embodies the "thing at hand." Thus, Luke 1:37 reassures that no divine rhēma/davar—no promise, no matter—lies beyond God's ability to fulfill, blending verbal assurance with substantive certainty.

[Geert van den Bos]

But I will remain open to all possibilities, keeping in mind Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

That is not a right translation, Richard

It even is misleading

(what else to be expected from KJV?)

Greek
ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα

ῥῆμα = spoken word
https://biblehub.com/greek/4487.htm

notably present in LXX Deuteronomy 8:8, cited in Matthew 4:4
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν, Γέγραπται, Οὐκ ἐπ' ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ' ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος θεοῦ


and it occurs also right in the next verse Luke 1:38
εἶπεν δὲ Μαριάμ, Ἰδοὺ ἡ δούλη κυρίου· γένοιτό μοι κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου. καὶ ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτῆς ὁ ἄγγελος.

same in Luke 2:29 in the speech of Simeon - "the one who hears"
Νῦν ἀπολύεις τὸν δοῦλόν σου, δέσποτα, κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου ἐν εἰρήνῃ·

I disagree Geert. Have you forgotten that rema and davar can both be used to mean "thing" or "the matter at hand"?

This is common knowledge. Here's how Grok explains it:

The Greek word ῥῆμα (rhēma, or "rema") in Luke 1:37 carries a rich, dual meaning: it denotes a spoken utterance or declaration, but also extends to the "thing," "matter," or "event" that the word describes. In the verse—"For no rhēma from God will be impossible" (or "nothing will be impossible with God")—it refers to God's promise or decree to Mary about the virgin birth, emphasizing that divine speech is not abstract but performative and reliable, becoming the tangible reality it announces. This usage echoes the Septuagint (LXX), where rhēma frequently translates the Hebrew דָּבָר (davar) in passages like Genesis 18:14 ("Is any davar too hard for the LORD?"), rendered in the LXX as "mē adunatēsei para tō theō rhēma." Luke deliberately echoes this phrasing to parallel Mary's miraculous conception with Sarah's, highlighting God's power over any "matter" or "thing at hand" He declares.

Both rhēma and davar share this semantic breadth because, in biblical thought, words—especially God's—are inseparable from action and outcome. Davar in Hebrew means both "word" (speech, command, promise) and "thing/matter/affair/event" (the concrete reality or issue involved), as seen in verses like Isaiah 55:11 where God's davar accomplishes its purpose without failing. The LXX translators chose rhēma for davar in many such contexts, carrying this Hebrew worldview into Greek: divine speech shapes and embodies the "thing at hand." Thus, Luke 1:37 reassures that no divine rhēma/davar—no promise, no matter—lies beyond God's ability to fulfill, blending verbal assurance with substantive certainty.

ok I see

Luke 1:37 is after Genesis 18:14, which might be an eye-opener (I did never think about)

But you did use it in another sense

I see deep beauty in the unified algebraic/geometric structure of the verse. The "pi coincidences" don't add anything to those patterns for me. They are curious, but not enlightening. And they seem outside the realm of choice, even for God (though that's not certain since God could scan all possible universes which is totally beyond our ability to even imagine).

But I will remain open to all possibilities, keeping in mind Luke 1:37 "For with God nothing shall be impossible."

[girardlys]

Of interest might be that the name of the second letter, "beit", with which the Torah begins, does mean "house" - and might allude to "house of the Lord"

Psalms 27:4,
One [thing] I ask of the Lord, that I seek-that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to see the pleasantness of the Lord and to visit His Temple every morning.

the Lord, "hashem" the four letter name, by whom the sixth and the seventh day ae united

https://biblehub.com/topical/t/the_sign ... _house.htm

a house ("beit") has an inside and an outside with an intermediate door ("dalet")

and a roof , Hebrew "gag"

Rabbi Tovia Singer has to say important things about that i.c.w. the (impending) war with Iran and the wars of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7pDeCQdmmE

The meaning of the letter "hey" (that was added to "shishi" in Genesis 1:31) is said to be "roofwindow" i.e. an opening in the roof

like the written letter "hey" is distinct from the written letter "chet" by it's little opening "under the roof"

opening like a needle's eye

yes that's true, and will be soon "uncovered":
about verse 403, genesis 17:5...
I already told you to used my numbers but it will take the needed time to understand my formulation:

about 1847: https://bijbelcode.nl/Wortel_5_en_phi.htm and genesis 17:5
what can I add:
1847-264-320-330-418-112=403 where 3139 (std_hebrew gematria of gen_17:5) stand for also 2701+438 (verse value of genesis 1:1 +438: house of yhwh= בית יהוה).

Point of interest "house of yhwh" in mispar shemi equal 882...

- the second set of numbers is 86+401+395=882 in genesis verse 1:1 in std_gem_hebrew

About my own study and the used of the series of 10 names blocks i give you in my post, we can said:

you can read it here, about gematria related to genesis and our names, on academia.edu website:

https://www.academia.edu/164881697/Gema ... _numerated

extract of this document:
as we know, 469th PALINDROME = 37073
Standard Gematria Genesis 1:1 = 37 × 73

If we always start from a principle of light that comprises this central point of creation and its numerical equivalent equal to 56+109, the value of its name as nekudah emtzait= 165. Where 109 can stand also for the value of : עגול = circle.

Then we will continue our demonstration with this number 56 at the head of all beginnings and as we can divide this set of numbers from the first equation:
- the first set of numbers is 1116 because 913+203=1116
- the second set of numbers is 86+401+395=882
- the third set of numbers is 407+296=703

We can also through addition or subtraction of these groups of numbers from the first equation say that:
(1116) - (882) + (703) = 937 (703) + (882) - (1116) = 469

By applying the values of these three equations, we can say that since 1998 is 1116+882, we indeed find in the structure of the words without dividing any of these words but by subtracting or adding them to the first equation:

1116 (1172 - 56) +882=1998
469 = 41+43+61+67+71+89+97 = center of the star that recomposes prime numbers.

Similarly, since the complement of 1998 to reach 2701 is 703, then if we subtract 703 from the second equation and add 56 from the beginning of the third equation, we indeed have:

1529+56-703=882

I would add here also without dwelling on it:
56+112+418+296=882
as well as:
330+264+109=703

If we take the grand total of the second equation, namely 1529, and subtract from the formula (1116) - (882) + (703) = 937, as well as 197, just as a moment ago we subtracted 56 (namely the first word of the third equation. Here it is the same thing; we remove 197 as a value "set apart").

Namely:
1529-937-197=395.
which is the value of the fifth word of the first equation (genesis 1:1).

We will add here that 937 is also the addition of the second word of the second equation (264) plus the first, second, and last word of the third equation (56+112+505); we can also replace 56+264 with 320 from the second equation.
Namely:
264+56+112+505=937

The justification for the use of the numbers 469 and 937 can be made as follows:
We could see just before how the word of value 395 was formed; we could also see that the three central words of the first verse (86+401+395=882)
(296 + 407) - (395 + 401 + 86) + (203 + 913) = 937
703-882+1116 = 937

Well, always to validate the use of the second and third equations that the first justifies, we will obtain the value of "and the earth":
882-56-112-418=296.

[Geert van den Bos]

ok I see

Luke 1:37 is after Genesis 18:14, which might be an eye-opener (I did never think about)

Sarah became pregnant as result of Abraham's namechange -- he did get in his name the same letter that was also added tot "shishi" in Genesis 1:31 because which Genesis 2:4 could read: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, with the letter "hey" they were created ("b'hibaram") on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven

Genesis 17:5,
And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Genesis 17:15-16,
And God said to Abraham, "Your wife Sarai-you shall not call her name Sarai, for Sarah is her name.
And I will bless her, and I will give you a son from her, and I will bless her, and she will become [a mother of] nations; kings of nations will be from her.

[RAMcGough]

Sarah became pregnant as result of Abraham's namechange -- he did get in his name the same letter that was also added tot "shishi" in Genesis 1:31 because which Genesis 2:4 could read: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, with the letter "hey" they were created ("b'hibaram") on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven

Genesis 17:5,
And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Genesis 17:15-16,
And God said to Abraham, "Your wife Sarai-you shall not call her name Sarai, for Sarah is her name.
And I will bless her, and I will give you a son from her, and I will bless her, and she will become [a mother of] nations; kings of nations will be from her.

Sarah got pregnant because God willed it. Scripture does not say that changing Abram's name "caused" anything. Would I be wrong to say your idea is just a metaphysical speculation?

[Megiddo]

My own research also demonstrates conclusively that P(1) = 2. For example, the Triple Repdigits form a logical set of palindromic numbers tied to 37 (the key Genesis 1:1 prime): 

111 / (1 + 1 + 1) = 37 
222 / (2 + 2 + 2) = 37 
333 / (3 + 3 + 3) = 37 
444 / (4 + 4 + 4) = 37 
555 / (5 + 5 + 5) = 37 
666 / (6 + 6 + 6) = 37 
777 / (7 + 7 + 7) = 37 
888 / (8 + 8 + 8) = 37 
999 / (9 + 9 + 9) = 37 

P(111) = 607 
P(222) = 1399 
P(333) = 2239 
P(444) = 3119 
P(555) = 4019 
P(666) = 4973 
P(777) = 5903 
P(888) = 6907 
P(999) = 7907 

Total sum = 37073 

Triple Repdigit sum = 4995 

37073 - 4995 = 373 × 86 

"LOGOS" (SG) = 373 
"THE LOGOS" (SG) = P(86) 

"ELOHIM" (SH) = 86 

Notice that the Triple Repdigits themselves are SELF-REFLECTIVE (i.e. their mirrors yield the same value). This same prime indexing code applied to the Genesis 1:1 word values reveals the very same mirroring pattern of 37/73: 

P(913) = 7127 
P(203) = 1237 
P(86) = 443 
P(401) = 2749 
P(395) = 2711 
P(407) = 2797 
P(296) = 1949 

Total sum = P(2161) 

2161 + 1612 = 3773 

Genesis 1:1 (SH) = 2701 = 37 × 73 

2701 + 1072 = 3773 

There's also the phenomenon of semiprime encoding, which also depends on 2 being the first prime (since the entire order of semiprimes would be turned upside down if 1 were counted among the primes): 

"Jesus Christ" (SG) = 2368 

2368 + SP(37) + SP(73) = 37 × 73 

2368 + (115 + 218) = 37 × 73 

Fascinating and important material, Leo, and as you say, it all depends on 2 being the first prime, including 443 (To Logos) being the 86th prime. Interestingly, 373 (Logos) is the 74th, which is 37 x 2.

Indeed! It's all dependent on 2 being the first prime. There's also a Triune aspect to the entire family of numbers (a nice reflection of the Triune God, who is the ultimate source of mathematics):

1) Unity
2) Primes
3) Composites

[Megiddo]

Hi Richard, 

I would say that it shows there are deeper layers to the Genesis 1:1 code and its mirrored prime factors of 37/73. I think it also points to the divine omniscience of the encoder.

When you say "pi coincidences", I assume you mean this: 

Pi position of 111 = 153 
Pi position of 222 = 1735 
Pi position of 333 = 1698 
Pi position of 444 = 2707 
Pi position of 555 = 177 
Pi position of 666 = 2440 
Pi position of 777 = 1589 
Pi position of 888 = 4751 
Pi position of 999 = 762 

Total Pi sum = 16012 

16012 + 21061 = 37073 

This is different from the prime code I showed earlier and yet it points back again to the large value 37073, which highlights the mirrored prime factors of Genesis 1:1. When I showed all this to Vernon Jenkins and Peter Bluer, they were both stunned. In fact, Peter called it the best evidence he'd ever seen and calls it "a thunderbolt from heaven" in his updated book: 

1) The mirrored primes 37 and 73 have mirrored prime orders, who squares are also mirrors 
2) G 1:1 = 2701 = 37 × 73 and 2701 + 1072 = 3773 
3) The Triple Repdigits are palindromic and forms a logical set of multiples of 37 
4) The primes indexed to those Triple Repdigits = 37073 
5) The pi positions of those very same Triple Repdigits yield a mirror sum of 37073 
6) The primes indexed to the 7 word values of G 1:1 = P(2161) and 2161 + 1612 = 3773
7) The number 2161 is itself the exact average value between the sum of the mirrors 1 through 37 (1279) and the sum of the mirrors 1 through 73 (3043) 

The entire convergence is derived from the prime factors of Genesis 1:1 (and its principle of mirror symmetry), which opens a sacred text that proclaims the omniscient God, who would surely know all the infinite positions of the entire infinity of numbers, simultaneously. All knowledge is equally and simultaneously known to an omniscient God.

Yes, God logically can't change the order of the primes or the order of the digits in pi (they are where they are by necessity), but he can certainly choose a set of values that form alignments across different key sequences. We see the same phenomenon occurring with geometric alignments, in that the Biblical numbers were chosen even though the geometric pairings are what they are by necessity. 


I'm glad you mentioned the Genesis 1:1 split of (1998 + T37) = T73, as it too is encoded in the Triple Repdigits. We know that composite numbers are naturally related to prime numbers (the latter being the very building blocks of the former). Therefore, we have the following, with 1998 being a product of 37 and the 37th COMPOSITE NUMBER and being chosen by the divine encoder to form the first semantic division in Genesis 1:1 (i.e. the composite ordering is what it is by necessity but the number 1998 itself was chosen): 

The nth composite number = CN 

CN(81) = 111 and CN(111) = 146 
CN(174) = 222 and CN(222) = 284 
CN(265) = 333 and CN(333) = 414 
CN(357) = 444 and CN(444) = 545 
CN(453) = 555 and CN(555) = 679 
CN(544) = 666 and CN(666) = 806 
CN(639) = 777 and CN(777) = 936 
CN(733) = 888 and CN(888) = 1068 
CN(830) = 999 and CN(999) = 1196 

Sum of COMPOSITE ORDERS of Triple Repdigits = 4076 
Sum of COMPOSITE NUMBERS indexed to Triple Repdigits = 6074 

6074 - 4076 = 1998 

The 37th COMPOSITE NUMBER = 54 

54 × 37 = 1998 

"In the beginning God created the heavens" (SH) = 1998


I would add that the geometry of Genesis 1:1 is also encoded with prime/composite indexing. For example, the very first Hebrew word in the Bible = 913 and this forms the 25 odd layers of Hexagon 1801 (i.e. the Hexagon that pairs with T73): 

1) 25
2) 27
3) 29
4) 31
5) 33
6) 35
7) 37
8) 39
9) 41
10) 43
11) 45
12) 47
13) 49
14) 47
15) 45
16) 43
17) 41
18) 39
19) 37
20) 35
21) 33
22) 31
23) 29
24) 27
25) 25 

Total sum = 913 

The FIRST word of Genesis 1:1 = 913

This odd layered Hexagon pairs with T73 

The total value of Genesis 1:1 = T73 


The sum of the 24 even layers of this same Hexagon = 888 = Jesus: 

1) 26
2) 28
3) 30
4) 32
5) 34
6) 36
7) 38
8) 40
9) 42
10) 44
11) 46
12) 48
13) 48
14) 46
15) 44
16) 42
17) 40
18) 38
19) 36
20) 34
21) 32
22) 30
23) 28
24) 26

Total sum = 888 

"Jesus" (SG) = 888

The exact average of these 24 layers = 37 


We see how the Triangle derived from Genesis 1:1 (T73) accommodates the FIRST word of Genesis 1:1 as an odd layered Hexagon, which then reveals 888 counters in its even layers (forming Hexagon 1801). This is where prime/composite indexing comes in: 

The composite index of 888 = 733 
The 888th composite number = 1068 

733 + 1068 = Hexagon 1801 

Therefore, the Genesis 1:1 Hexagon is itself the sum of the composite index of 888 and the 888th composite number, in addition to having 888 counters in its even layers (with the first word of Genesis 1:1 itself forming the odd layers). This now becomes a "prime pointer" to the 391st prime: 

(733 + 1068) + 888 = P(391) 

"Jesus" (SH) = 391 

Not only does the "composite identity" of 888 (Jesus SG = 888) point to the 391st prime (Jesus SH = 391), this is tied to the Genesis 1:1 Hexagon, which itself reveals 888 and the first Hebrew word in Genesis 1:1 as odd/even layers. 



2368 created the universe, 

Leo

[Geert van den Bos]

Sarah got pregnant because God willed it. Scripture does not say that changing Abram's name "caused" anything. Would I be wrong to say your idea is just a metaphysical speculation?

Rashi on Genesis 15:5
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cd ... rashi/true
And He took him outside. According to its simple meaning: He took him out of his tent, outdoors, to see the stars. But according to its midrashic interpretation, He said to him, “Go out of your astrology,” for you have seen in the signs of the zodiac that you are not destined to have a son. Indeed, Abram will have no son, but Abraham will have a son. Similarly, Sarai will not give birth, but Sarah will give birth. I will give you another name, and your destiny will change (Ned. 32a, Gen. Rabbah 44:10). Another explanation: He took him out of the terrestrial sphere and lifted him above the stars. This explains the expression of הַבָּטָה, looking down from above (Gen. Rabbah 44:12).

Luke 1:37 in fact declares the fact that Elisabeth in her old age became pregnant from her husband who also with an old man

Luke 1 https://biblehub.com/esv/luke/1.htm
5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah,a of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. 7But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were advanced in years.
(...)
18And Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”

“How shall I know this?" Κατὰ τί γνώσομαι τοῦτο;
Same question wa asked by Abram, Genesis 15:8, בַּמָּ֥ה אֵדַ֖ע LXX κατὰ τί γνώσομαι ὅτι κληρονομήσω αὐτήν;

Luke 1
34And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
35And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be borne will be called holy—the Son of God.
36And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For nothing will be impossible with God.” ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα.



You did rip the phrase out of context; like many other (evangelical) Christians did do, (to prove their right)

[Geert van den Bos]

ὅτι οὐκ ἀδυνατήσει παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ πᾶν ῥῆμα.

ἀδυνατέω
https://biblehub.com/greek/101.htm

ἀδύνατος
https://biblehub.com/greek/102.htm

δυνατός
https://biblehub.com/greek/1415.htm

δύναμαι
https://biblehub.com/greek/1410.htm

δύναμις
https://biblehub.com/greek/1411.htm

Luke 1
34 εἶπεν δὲ Μαριὰμ πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον, Πῶς ἔσται τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω;
35 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν αὐτῇ, Πνεῦμα ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ, καὶ δύναμις ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι· διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται, υἱὸς θεοῦ.


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1903 ... 17819.html

[RAMcGough]

δύναμις ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι

ἐπισκιάζω overshadow
https://biblehub.com/greek/1982.htm


σκιά shadow
https://biblehub.com/greek/4639.htm

Mark 4:30-32 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV
Καὶ ἔλεγεν, Πῶς ὁμοιώσωμεν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἢ ἐν τίνι αὐτὴν παραβολῇ θῶμεν; ὡς κόκκῳ σινάπεως, ὃς ὅταν σπαρῇ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, μικρότερον ὂν πάντων τῶν σπερμάτων τῶν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ ὅταν σπαρῇ, ἀναβαίνει καὶ γίνεται μεῖζον πάντων τῶν λαχάνων καὶ ποιεῖ κλάδους μεγάλους, ὥστε δύνασθαι ὑπὸ τὴν σκιὰν αὐτοῦ τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ κατασκηνοῦν.

I thought the mustardseed to be the letter "yud" = middle letter of Genesis 1:1 depicted as triangular form



"He made darkness His hiding place"

Geert,

It seems like you are wandering very far from the topic of this thread. Please start a new thread with the new topic you have introduced. This thread is to discuss patterns based on prime indexes, and reasons to take the first prime as 1 or 2.

Thanks!