Daniel 2 - Nebuchadnezzar's dream

[gilgal]

I want to dig deeper into this subject.

I want to know the different points of view on the image that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed about and especially the last part where iron is mixed with clay.

Here's the entire chapter and I will deal with parts of it during the discussion.


Daniel 2
1 And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
3 And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.
4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.
5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.
6 But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.
7 They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.
8 The king answered and said, I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.
9 But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, there is but one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.
10 The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.
11 And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.
12 For this cause the king was angry and very furious, and commanded to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.
13 And the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to be slain.
14 Then Daniel answered with counsel and wisdom to Arioch the captain of the king's guard, which was gone forth to slay the wise men of Babylon:
15 He answered and said to Arioch the king's captain, Why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel.
16 Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation.
17 Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions:
18 That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.
25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.
26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
48 Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.
49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

[gilgal]

The popular interpretation is that the ten toes represent the 10 European nations in the last days. This can be easily debunked since the European Union is more than 10 nations.

The 10 toes are 10 kings partly strong and partly weak. Another possibility is the division of the world into 10 geographical regions ruled by a king or minister partly strong and partly weak.

Another possibility is the ten kings are historical figures. Some say they are 10 Caesars but I disagree. Why and how then the dragon having ten horns waited Jesus to be born and to devour the child?

I decided to do research on the history of the Roman Empire but got very little info.

Decemviri (singular decemvir) is a Latin term meaning "Ten Men" which designates any such commission in the Roman Republic (cf. Triumviri, Three Men). Different types of decemvirate include the writing of laws with consular imperium (legibus scribundis consulari imperio), the judging of litigation (stlitibus iudicandis), the making of sacrifices (sacris faciundis), and the distribution of public lands (agris dandis adsignandis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decemviri
That still doesn't prove much. The Decemviri existed in 400BC.

But read this passage:

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

It was at the time of the Roman empire when Jesus was preaching the kingdom of God and repentance. In other words isn't he setting up his kingdom?

And don't his teachings break apart anything that offend in other kingdoms/political systems?

[gilgal]

On the Roman Empire Arnold Fruchtenbaum wrote:


Looking at Roman history, it is known that Rome went through five
types ofgovernments before it developed into the first stage ofthe
Empire of Imperialism. They are as follows:

The Tarquin Kings 754-510 B.C. - The First Head
The Counsulors 510-494 B.C. - The Second Head
The Plebians or Dictators 494-390 B.C. - The Third Head
The Republicans or Decimvers 390-59 B.C. - The Fourth Head (Oligarchy of Ten)
The Triumvirate 59-27 B.C. - The Fifth Head


These represent the five heads, which are fallen, and were a part of
history by the time that John wrote his book. Before the Fourth Gentile
Empire of Imperialism developed, these five types of governments
preceded it. The sixth head was the one that was then present, which
began in the year 27 B.C. and will continue into the middle of the
Tribulation Period. So the sixth head is the first four stages of the
Fourth Gentile Empire of Imperialism.
page 22 (http://templewatch.com/wp-content/uploads/time-of-the-gentiles_arnold-fruchtenbaum.pdf)


I'm more tempted to think that the oligarchy of ten are the 10 horns and 10 toes. But I don't even know WHO are the ten. Any ideas?

[basilfo]

Hi Gilgal,
This chapter, this dream, is so terribly interpreted these days IMO. The first major flaw is seeing 5 kingdoms vs. the 4 which are in the text if you read carefully. The iron and clay are never referred to as ANOTHER kingdom, just further descriptions of the 4th. Which makes sense from a preterist perspective, and the text itself, describing the continuous flow of kingdoms overtaking each other ending with the Roman Empire of Christ's time ... not some re-newed empire today.

I defy anyone to show which verse in Dan 2 begins the description of a 5th kingdom. It's just not there. Futurist need a 5th because the 4th ended long ago.

Dave

[gilgal]

Hi Gilgal,
This chapter, this dream, is so terribly interpreted these days IMO. The first major flaw is seeing 5 kingdoms vs. the 4 which are in the text if you read carefully. The iron and clay are never referred to as ANOTHER kingdom, just further descriptions of the 4th. Which makes sense from a preterist perspective, and the text itself, describing the continuous flow of kingdoms overtaking each other ending with the Roman Empire of Christ's time ... not some re-newed empire today.

I defy anyone to show which verse in Dan 2 begins the description of a 5th kingdom. It's just not there. Futurist need a 5th because the 4th ended long ago.

Dave
Can you give the reasons to believe that the ten toes are a thing of the past?

Some are tempted to think that the two arms represent the Medes and the Persians. And the Roman Empire at the time of Diocletian was divided in two which is interpreted as the two legs of iron. But the Macedonian Empire was divided in four after Alexander the great. Why didn't the waist of the image split in four? On the other hand the ten toes represent the ten kings.

[CWH]

The popular interpretation is that the ten toes represent the 10 European nations in the last days. This can be easily debunked since the European Union is more than 10 nations.

The 10 toes are 10 kings partly strong and partly weak. Another possibility is the division of the world into 10 geographical regions ruled by a king or minister partly strong and partly weak.

Another possibility is the ten kings are historical figures. Some say they are 10 Caesars but I disagree. Why and how then the dragon having ten horns waited Jesus to be born and to devour the child?



Hi gilgal,

We are coming close to it, We need to understand that there are 3 different entities:
1) the hugh red dragon with the 10 horns, 7 heads and 7 crowns. To me this is the Arab League who is forever trying to annihilate Israel.
2) the beast rising out from the sea (Mediteranean Sea) with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 crowns. I believe this to be the European Union but I currently do not have strong proof. Currently there are 27 nations forming the EU which corresponds to the sum of 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 crowns.
3) the second beast with 2 horns. I believe this to be China. The 2 horns are Macau and HongKong which joined China in 1997 and 1999 but are rather autonomous and "independent".

The dragon will give its authority to the 1st beast and the 1st beast to the 2nd beast. In other words, there will be alliance between the Arab League and the EU and later with China That alliance of EU + Arab League + China will make them the most powerful and economic super giant that the world will ever know. Much more powerful than the US. No wonder it is mentioned in Revelation 13: 4, "Who is like the Beast? Who can fight against the Beast?". The alliance will then be able to control the world economically, militarily and politically (and also oil); some sort of a world government. Currently, the EU forms about 30% of the world's economy and China will be the world's largest economy in this century. See the impact? What happen to the US then, I do not know. Note also that China has the largest militia men in the world, 3 million.

Many Blessings.

[basilfo]

Can you give the reasons to believe that the ten toes are a thing of the past?

Some are tempted to think that the two arms represent the Medes and the Persians. And the Roman Empire at the time of Diocletian was divided in two which is interpreted as the two legs of iron. But the Macedonian Empire was divided in four after Alexander the great. Why didn't the waist of the image split in four? On the other hand the ten toes represent the ten kings.

Hi Gilgal,
Because the toes are not a separate kingdom. They are part of the 4th. Also because the statue is depicting the same thing as the 4 beasts given in Dan 7. Again, there is no 5th kingdom in either chapter. So the 4th is the last, and that is clearly the Roman Empire - NOT the EU. The Roman Empire persecuted the early church viciously, but was "crushed" by Christ's Kingdom just as Dan 2 said it would. There has not been another fully dominant world empire since the Roman Empire.

Dan 2:44 also says "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom..." Combine that with the message of Christ and His apostles that the Kingdom was "at hand", and there is no reason to delay it's arrival 2000 yrs out into the future. Christ is not in a holding pattern. He reigns today, death is conquered .... ("O death, where is thy sting!")

Peace to you,
Dave

[gilgal]

Hi Gilgal,
Because the toes are not a separate kingdom. They are part of the 4th. Also because the statue is depicting the same thing as the 4 beasts given in Dan 7. Again, there is no 5th kingdom in either chapter. So the 4th is the last, and that is clearly the Roman Empire - NOT the EU. The Roman Empire persecuted the early church viciously, but was "crushed" by Christ's Kingdom just as Dan 2 said it would. There has not been another fully dominant world empire since the Roman Empire.

Dan 2:44 also says "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom..." Combine that with the message of Christ and His apostles that the Kingdom was "at hand", and there is no reason to delay it's arrival 2000 yrs out into the future. Christ is not in a holding pattern. He reigns today, death is conquered .... ("O death, where is thy sting!")

Peace to you,
Dave

What exactly was it that the prophets longed to see but the believers saw it in the apostle's time? I guess Christ and his teachings?

One thing, the stone knocked out the entire image, not just the legs.

It would be nice to identify who the 10 kings were.

[CWH]

Hi,

I would like to highlight certain issues (see those in red bold below):
There may be 4 kingdoms, however there are 5 body parts (head, breast and arms, belly and thighs, legs, feet) and 5 materials (gold, silver, brass, iron, clay). Why?... the reason is there are 4 kingdoms but the last kingdom i.e. the fourth kingdom is an extended kingdom of the modern Revived Roman Empire which is the EU. This is explained in this website:
http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture_RRE.htm
It states:
[Roman Empire]
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

[Revived Roman Empire of the end-times]
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The 10 kings(heads) are the 10 member nations of the Western European Union. They are also member nations of the 27 nations that formed the European Union. Please refer to this website : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union
It states:
The Western European Union has 10 member countries, 6 associate member countries, 5 observer countries and 7 associate partner countries. On 14 June 2001, Solana stated that there was no foreseeable reason to change the status of the non member countries in the organisation.
Member countries: (modified Brussels Treaty - 1954)
All of them being members of both NATO and the European Union. These are the only nations that have full voting rights.
▪ United Kingdom
▪ France
▪ Germany
▪ Italy
▪ Belgium
▪ Netherlands
▪ Luxembourg
▪ Portugal (27 March 1990)
▪ Spain (27 March 1990)
▪ Greece (1995)

The 10 Western European Union nation members are the 10 heads of the Beast that arise from the sea.
Please also refer to my thread "the twelve stars and the EU" in Bible Studies for details on the EU (Beast with 10 crowns, 10 heads, 7 horns) and the 22 nation members of the Arab League which is the hugh red dragon with 10 crowns, 7 heads and 7 horns.

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

To complicate things, it says ten kings not 10 kingdoms. Should it be literally interpreted as Kings? or Ministers? Governors?...

It's also interesting to see that it was during the Roman Empire's existence that Jesus Christ was born.

I'm not 100% sure whether this prophecy's entirely history or yet to be fulfilled partly in the near future.

The Roman empire split in two under Diocletian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

- Diocletian splits imperial administration between east and west

The eastern empire survived until the Muslims and Turks took over. The governing body fled to Russia. Czar means Caesar.

The western empire disintegrated fast but was revived as the Holy Roman Empire during the Middle Ages. The Popes and Emperors co-ruled. The title Kaiser also means Caesar.

From this I see that the hope of putting an empire together hasn't died out.

[basilfo]

Hi again Gilgal,
glad to discuss this with you.

Don't see in Dan 2's interp anything about 10 toes = 10 kings or kingdoms. Did I miss it?

Notice that the stone crushes ALL the kingdoms (metals) at once when it strikes the statue. All these kingdoms did not exist at the same time, so this must be a crushing in a non-literal sense. To me, this was Christ's kingdom that was ushered in in the 1st century. His arrival and Parousia taught in the Scriptures to be "at hand", "near", "at the door", "things that must shortly take place", etc.

That perfect kingdom (always taught as a spiritual kingdom, not of this world) did in fact surpass the 4 mighty human world empires which existed up until that time - Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and the most terrible of all (Dan 7) the Roman. His Kingdom is far superior to anything man has crafted - as impressive as those world empires may have been. Christ is truly the King of Kings - no contest. If His kingdom was not set up then, was John the Baptist crying wolf?? ("Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!")
To be accurate by futurist's standards, he should have said: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is coming in a few thousand years!!

The interp by Daniel shows those kingdoms flowed continuously one taking over the previous. Well, after the Roman, there really have not been, nor can there again be "world empires" under which all civilized people in the known world were subject. The phony thought that the EU constitutes this 5th final, fictitious kingdom (iron/clay) is really a joke. It bares no resemblance whatsoever to those world empires - who dominated in military might, territory, governance, and wealth. It's more like a clumsy big "wannabe" country, arguably ranked in the top 5 superpowers of the world today (and in decline I might add).

Yes, the Roman empire continued on a bit after the Stone crushed, but only by man's standards. After Christ's kingdom was unveiled by the spread of the Gospel to all the world in the 1st century, they were insignificant ...

like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


Peace to you,
Dave

[gilgal]

Hi again Gilgal,
glad to discuss this with you.

Don't see in Dan 2's interp anything about 10 toes = 10 kings or kingdoms. Did I miss it?


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Notice that the stone crushes ALL the kingdoms (metals) at once when it strikes the statue. All these kingdoms did not exist at the same time, so this must be a crushing in a non-literal sense. To me, this was Christ's kingdom that was ushered in in the 1st century. His arrival and Parousia taught in the Scriptures to be "at hand", "near", "at the door", "things that must shortly take place", etc.

That perfect kingdom (always taught as a spiritual kingdom, not of this world) did in fact surpass the 4 mighty human world empires which existed up until that time - Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and the most terrible of all (Dan 7) the Roman. His Kingdom is far superior to anything man has crafted - as impressive as those world empires may have been. Christ is truly the King of Kings - no contest. If His kingdom was not set up then, was John the Baptist crying wolf?? ("Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!")
To be accurate by futurist's standards, he should have said: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is coming in a few thousand years!!

The interp by Daniel shows those kingdoms flowed continuously one taking over the previous. Well, after the Roman, there really have not been, nor can there again be "world empires" under which all civilized people in the known world were subject. The phony thought that the EU constitutes this 5th final, fictitious kingdom (iron/clay) is really a joke. It bares no resemblance whatsoever to those world empires - who dominated in military might, territory, governance, and wealth. It's more like a clumsy big "wannabe" country, arguably ranked in the top 5 superpowers of the world today (and in decline I might add).

Yes, the Roman empire continued on a bit after the Stone crushed, but only by man's standards. After Christ's kingdom was unveiled by the spread of the Gospel to all the world in the 1st century, they were insignificant ...

like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Peace to you,
Dave
There is a kingdom which God and his Christ rule presently. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". But in Revelation 11 it says:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The 5th Kingdom is Christ's Kingdom. It's the stone cut without hands (what does that mean anyways?).

It's hard to associate the dream if we still can't analyze it. Both futurists and preterists haven't fully understood.

The head of gold is Babylon since Daniel associates it to Nebuchadnezzar. Nothing else.

I suppose gold is referring to the value.

Then silver, meaning inferior to gold is the Medo-Persian empire. I believe the first king Darius was a Mede. But the successive kings were Persians.

Then the Macedonian Empire, brass.

Then Rome. But when it comes to the ten toes, these are ten kings as mentioned in verse 44. Fruchtenbaum wrote that at one time there was an Oligarchy of ten (see previous postings) or this might be 10 regional rulers in the future.

But can anyone research and see who were these oligarchy of ten in history and how much influence they've had?

[CWH]

Hi again Gilgal,
glad to discuss this with you.

Don't see in Dan 2's interp anything about 10 toes = 10 kings or kingdoms. Did I miss it?

Notice that the stone crushes ALL the kingdoms (metals) at once when it strikes the statue. All these kingdoms did not exist at the same time, so this must be a crushing in a non-literal sense. To me, this was Christ's kingdom that was ushered in in the 1st century. His arrival and Parousia taught in the Scriptures to be "at hand", "near", "at the door", "things that must shortly take place", etc.

That perfect kingdom (always taught as a spiritual kingdom, not of this world) did in fact surpass the 4 mighty human world empires which existed up until that time - Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and the most terrible of all (Dan 7) the Roman. His Kingdom is far superior to anything man has crafted - as impressive as those world empires may have been. Christ is truly the King of Kings - no contest. If His kingdom was not set up then, was John the Baptist crying wolf?? ("Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!")
To be accurate by futurist's standards, he should have said: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is coming in a few thousand years!!

The interp by Daniel shows those kingdoms flowed continuously one taking over the previous. Well, after the Roman, there really have not been, nor can there again be "world empires" under which all civilized people in the known world were subject. The phony thought that the EU constitutes this 5th final, fictitious kingdom (iron/clay) is really a joke. It bares no resemblance whatsoever to those world empires - who dominated in military might, territory, governance, and wealth. It's more like a clumsy big "wannabe" country, arguably ranked in the top 5 superpowers of the world today (and in decline I might add).

Yes, the Roman empire continued on a bit after the Stone crushed, but only by man's standards. After Christ's kingdom was unveiled by the spread of the Gospel to all the world in the 1st century, they were insignificant ...

like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


Peace to you,
Dave

Hi Dave and Gilgal,

I see kings synonymous with kingdoms and nations. Do we not call USA, America which comes from Amerigo Vespuci? or use the capital's name, Washington to mean USA which comes from a general called Washington? What I am trying to say here is that countries and places could be synonymous with great people. Therefore kings are synonymous with the nations that they ruled for they represent the nations. Is'nt Israel named after Jacob who was re-named as Israel? In fact many countries and places are named after kings and great people:
http://sarathc.com/?p=327

"A day to the Lord is but a thousand years" (2 Peter : 8).

The EU is a joke according to Dave but the coincidences are undeniable and simply awesome....can you explain? -
1) EU rise up from the Mediteranean nations (sea) = the beast that rise up from the sea.
2) EU flag has 12 stars in a circle like a crown representing the 12 tribes of Israel and standing on the moon (Muslim nations of North Africa and the Middle East)
3) The 10 Western European nations = 10 horns or crowns of the Beast that rise up from the sea.
4) The EU comprise of 27 nations = the Beast that rise up from the sea with 10 horns, 10 crowns and 7 heads (10 + 10 +7).

The Arab League is the hugh red dragon with 7 heads, 7 crowns and 10 horns representing the 7 founding nations, the 7 monarchy nations and the 10 minor participating nations of the Arab League. The Arab League nations attacked Israel the moment Israel became independent in 1948 = the dragon that stood in front of the woman in order to eat her child as soon as it was born (Revelation 13:4).

The second Beast that came out of the earth (Asia) with 2 horns is China with Macau and Hong Kong.

Awesome co-incidences...or divine revelations?

Peace and many blessings to both of you.:)

[basilfo]

Hi Cheow,
Although I agree kings and kingdoms can be synonomous in certain Scripture, you still haven't connected 10 toes with 10 kingdoms (or kings) from the text. It's just speculation which shouldn't be confused with sound interpretation based on hermeneutics and exegesis.

First problem is the timing is all wrong for today's EU. 2nd is - as I mentioned - the EU is not at all like the 4 kingdoms which dominated the entire inhabited world of their time. All the countries of the EU are not mediteranean, as you say, so that "coincidence" is not valid.

The Child in Rev 13 is Christ. So I'm lost on your comparison of the Arabs attacking modern day Israel in 1948. Revelation has nothing to do with modern day Israel. Read Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and Rev all in context and you will see. Today's country of Israel has nothing to do with Christ (and only geographical connection to the nation of Israel of the Old Covenant).

I would recommend looking to Scripture vs. today's geography and nations if you want to truly understand the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Listen to the angel who spoke to John on Patmos telling him of the "things which must shortly take place......for the time is near." Don't listen to the headline readers who have been proven false "prophets" over and over again.

The apostles taught that THEY were in the last days, and these phonies also say WE are now in the last days - just in the last few years or so. Cheow, who are you going to believe?? Both cannot be right. An event cannot be immenent for 2000 yrs. If it's immenent today, by definition, it was not immenent then when the apostles said it was. That's a problem - think about it.

Peace to you,
Dave

[basilfo]

Hi Gilgal,
I don't see the kings of verse 44 as referring to the 10 toes. I see it as referring to the leaders of the 4 kingdoms mentioned as gold, silver, brass, and iron/clay. Verse 44 is starting a new thought of Christ's kingdom, not still talking about the toes, as I read the text.

44 is also the marker that tells you the timing of God's kingdom - in the days of THESE kings (those empires). We don't have that anymore. Which matches up perfectly with "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." If you delay verse 44, then you have to make John the Baptist's words jibberjabber.

I agree the final kingdom (the stone) is Christ's kingdom. Cut without hands means it is not like manmade stones (the previous inferior manmade kingdoms). It is of God. His is so superior, it crushes them and leaves them as dust in the wind. It's not based on man's values (power, riches, might, force, etc.), but on love, grace, righeousness, holiness, etc.

I don't have it all figured out Gilgal. But the preterist view can be easily integrated with the rest of eschatological Scripture (Daniel and Matt 24 and all the apostolic teaching on the Parousia and end of the age), unlike the futurist view.

Dave

[gilgal]

Hi Dave and Gilgal,

I see kings synonymous with kingdoms and nations. Do we not call USA, America which comes from Amerigo Vespuci? or use the capital's name, Washington to mean USA which comes from a general called Washington? What I am trying to say here is that countries and places could be synonymous with great people. Therefore kings are synonymous with the nations that they ruled for they represent the nations. Is'nt Israel named after Jacob who was re-named as Israel? In fact many countries and places are named after kings and great people:
http://sarathc.com/?p=327

"A day to the Lord is but a thousand years" (2 Peter : 8).

The EU is a joke according to Dave but the coincidences are undeniable and simply awesome....can you explain? -
1) EU rise up from the Mediteranean nations (sea) = the beast that rise up from the sea.
2) EU flag has 12 stars in a circle like a crown representing the 12 tribes of Israel and standing on the moon (Muslim nations of North Africa and the Middle East)
3) The 10 Western European nations = 10 horns or crowns of the Beast that rise up from the sea.
4) The EU comprise of 27 nations = the Beast that rise up from the sea with 10 horns, 10 crowns and 7 heads (10 + 10 +7).

The Arab League is the hugh red dragon with 7 heads, 7 crowns and 10 horns representing the 7 founding nations, the 7 monarchy nations and the 10 minor participating nations of the Arab League. The Arab League nations attacked Israel the moment Israel became independent in 1948 = the dragon that stood in front of the woman in order to eat her child as soon as it was born (Revelation 13:4).

The second Beast that came out of the earth (Asia) with 2 horns is China with Macau and Hong Kong.

Awesome co-incidences...or divine revelations?

Peace and many blessings to both of you.:)
I'm going to try to read and answer the postings one by one.
There's is some rich symbolism when we look at things like the EU flag. I think EU has some 27 members, right? But the flag has 12 stars. But does the star-crowned woman in Revelation 12 match word for word the EU? or earthly Israel? or Heavenly Israel since John saw the sign in heaven? or is it simply a sign in the constellations? Because even though John saw the woman in heaven she gave birth to Christ and then she was given wings to flee in the desert. It doesn't make a lot of sense. She's in heaven, or her sign is in heaven, then she on earth and a pair of wings are given to her.

Keep in mind that Satan and the world duplicates God's promises, signs, wonders...only for his own benefit. So maybe the 12-star EU flag is a mockery to the heavenly Jerusalem. It seems to me that the answer to Revelation 12's woman is actually the heavenly Jerusalem. Not all the saints are in heaven yet!

The following image is Zeus in the form of the bull and Europa riding him on water. This resembles to Revelation 17 except that the bull here has only one head and 2 horns. But the woman is almost naked like a harlot.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/larrymyth/images/meleager/M-Europa-Coypel.jpg
Here's a more descriptive image on the stamp where the harlot and the bull are riding on 7 mountain-like waves in the sea:
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Gods/Myth/Europe.jpg

[gilgal]

Hi Gilgal,
I don't see the kings of verse 44 as referring to the 10 toes. I see it as referring to the leaders of the 4 kingdoms mentioned as gold, silver, brass, and iron/clay. Verse 44 is starting a new thought of Christ's kingdom, not still talking about the toes, as I read the text.

44 is also the marker that tells you the timing of God's kingdom - in the days of THESE kings (those empires). We don't have that anymore. Which matches up perfectly with "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." If you delay verse 44, then you have to make John the Baptist's words jibberjabber.

Well, if you look at it that way...in the days of these kings...it's still not a short period of time:
Babylon 70 years;
Medo-Persia about 2 centuries (?);
Greece about 2 centuries(?);
Rome a few centuries depending the east and the west.

Christ was born while the Roman Empire was starting!!! Maybe 60 years into existence ...well it existed as a nation or (Etruscan) culture before.

We still don't know what the ten toes are!



I agree the final kingdom (the stone) is Christ's kingdom. Cut without hands means it is not like manmade stones (the previous inferior manmade kingdoms). It is of God. His is so superior, it crushes them and leaves them as dust in the wind. It's not based on man's values (power, riches, might, force, etc.), but on love, grace, righeousness, holiness, etc.

Christ came and taught the truth in a way that was never revealed before by the Law and Prophets. God spoke to prophets by dreams and visions. But Christ, more like Moses spoke plainly.


I don't have it all figured out Gilgal. But the preterist view can be easily integrated with the rest of eschatological Scripture (Daniel and Matt 24 and all the apostolic teaching on the Parousia and end of the age), unlike the futurist view.
Dave
One thing though. Matthew 24 talks about the trumpet blowing and the angels gathering the elect from the four winds of heaven. I haven't seen that happen yet.

[CWH]

Hi gilgal,



One thing though. Matthew 24 talks about the trumpet blowing and the angels gathering the elect from the four winds of heaven. I haven't seen that happen yet.

Preterist will say that the verse above is symbolic whereas Futurist will say that these events are yet to come. Seems like all future events to full preterist are considered as symbolic because it does not fit into their ideology.

In regards to the origin of the 12 stars on the flag of EU, the story sounds like God inspired. Below is the excerpt from wikipedia on the history of the EU flag:

The circle of stars bears a striking similarity to the twelve-star halo of the Virgin Mary seen in Roman Catholic art. The flag's designer, Arsène Heitz, has acknowledged that the Book of Revelation (which is where the twelve-star halo of the Virgin Mary was first mentioned) helped to inspire him.[14] Revelation 12:1 is cited to explain the symbolism: "A great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (a crown of stars can be interpreted as a "Crown of Immortality"). It has been noted that the date the flag was adopted, 8 December 1955, coincided with the Catholic Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a feast decreed in 1854 by Pope Pius IX.[15]

Blessing Madonna, stained glass window in Strasbourg Cathedral featuring the twelve stars.[16]
Others have traced the origin of the flag of Europe to the time of the Second World War. Paul Lévy, a Belgian of Jewish descent, vowed that he if he should survive the war, he would convert to Christianity. He duly survived and became a Catholic. When the Council of Europe was established, Lévy became its Chief of its Department of Culture. In 1952, when the idea of a European flag was being discussed, Lévy backed the flag of the Pan Europe Movement. However, the cross element in its design was rejected by the Socialists and Turks as too Christian. It is claimed that one day, Lévy passed a statue of the Virgin Mary with a halo of stars and was struck by the way the stars, reflecting the sun, glowed against the blue of the sky. Lévy later visited Count Benvenuti, a Venetian Christian democrat and then Secretary General of the Council of Europe, and suggested that he should propose twelve golden stars on a blue ground as motif for the flag of Europe.[17] However, the idea of the flag's design came from Arsène Heitz, not Lévy, and Lévy has stated that he was only informed of the connection to the Book of Revelation after it was chosen.[18] Official authorities of the European Union disregard the biblical interpretation as myth.[19]

Despite the formal rejection of biblical references, on 21 October 1956 the Council of Europe presented the city of Strasbourg, its official seat, with a stained glass window for Strasbourg Cathedral by the Parisian master Max Ingrand. It shows a blessing Madonna underneath a circle of 12 stars on dark blue ground.[15] The overall design of the Madonna is inspired by the banner of the cathedral's Congrégation Mariale des Hommes, and the twelve stars are found on the statue venerated by this congregation inside the cathedral (twelve is also the number of members of the congregation's council).



Peace and many blessings.

[CWH]

[QUOTE=gilgal;12457]I'm going to try to read and answer the postings one by one.
There's is some rich symbolism when we look at things like the EU flag. I think EU has some 27 members, right? But the flag has 12 stars. But does the star-crowned woman in Revelation 12 match word for word the EU? or earthly Israel? or Heavenly Israel since John saw the sign in heaven? or is it simply a sign in the constellations? Because even though John saw the woman in heaven she gave birth to Christ and then she was given wings to flee in the desert. It doesn't make a lot of sense. She's in heaven, or her sign is in heaven, then she on earth and a pair of wings are given to her.

Keep in mind that Satan and the world duplicates God's promises, signs, wonders...only for his own benefit. So maybe the 12-star EU flag is a mockery to the heavenly Jerusalem. It seems to me that the answer to Revelation 12's woman is actually the heavenly Jerusalem. Not all the saints are in heaven yet!

Hi gilgal,

I used to think that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel or Virgin Mary, but now I think it may not be. The reason is because Revelation is talking about future events, if not why call the book Revelation. Revelation was written probably in the AD 60s or 90s, why would it want to talk about past events about Mary and the birth of Jesus, the Roman Empire, besides, when did Mary fled to the desert and taken care of for 1260 days. I just wonder what so mysterious, great and wondrous about Mary and the birth of Jesus when it was already well known? What so wondrous, great and mysterious is this woman (if this woman is Virgin Mary or Israel) whose dress was the sun with the moon under her feet and 12 stars on her head? What so mysterious and wondrous about the hugh red dragon with 10 horns and 7 heads and 7 crowns if it is referring to the Roman Empire? Mysterious means something secret... is Virgin Mary or Israel or the Roman Empire which we all know much about , something mysterious?..or is Revelation talking about something else which are secrets that will happen in the future? Think about it.....
Revelation 12
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another wondrous sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.



Many Blessings.

[gilgal]

[QUOTE=gilgal;12457]I'm going to try to read and answer the postings one by one.
There's is some rich symbolism when we look at things like the EU flag. I think EU has some 27 members, right? But the flag has 12 stars. But does the star-crowned woman in Revelation 12 match word for word the EU? or earthly Israel? or Heavenly Israel since John saw the sign in heaven? or is it simply a sign in the constellations? Because even though John saw the woman in heaven she gave birth to Christ and then she was given wings to flee in the desert. It doesn't make a lot of sense. She's in heaven, or her sign is in heaven, then she on earth and a pair of wings are given to her.

Keep in mind that Satan and the world duplicates God's promises, signs, wonders...only for his own benefit. So maybe the 12-star EU flag is a mockery to the heavenly Jerusalem. It seems to me that the answer to Revelation 12's woman is actually the heavenly Jerusalem. Not all the saints are in heaven yet!

Hi gilgal,

I used to think that the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel or Virgin Mary, but now I think it may not be. The reason is because Revelation is talking about future events, if not why call the book Revelation. Revelation was written probably in the AD 60s or 90s, why would it want to talk about past events about Mary and the birth of Jesus, the Roman Empire, besides, when did Mary fled to the desert and taken care of for 1260 days. I just wonder what so mysterious, great and wondrous about Mary and the birth of Jesus when it was already well known? What so wondrous, great and mysterious is this woman (if this woman is Virgin Mary or Israel) whose dress was the sun with the moon under her feet and 12 stars on her head? What so mysterious and wondrous about the hugh red dragon with 10 horns and 7 heads and 7 crowns if it is referring to the Roman Empire? Mysterious means something secret... is Virgin Mary or Israel or the Roman Empire which we all know much about , something mysterious?..or is Revelation talking about something else which are secrets that will happen in the future? Think about it.....
Revelation 12
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another wondrous sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.



Many Blessings.
I think the woman in Revelation 12 is the heavenly Jerusalem. I could be wrong but Jesus is born of her and then it mentions the remnant of her seed
which keep the commandments of God.

But the birth of Jesus is a thing of the past. I think this is where Revelation backtracks to the past.

The strange thing is that the dragon willing to devour the child had ten horns. WHO ARE THESE TEN HORNS!?! Jesus the Lamb had 7 horns:


Revelation 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


Analyzing the horns of an animal. It's their weapon of combat. Can anyone add to this?

Coming back to Daniel 2, the iron is also mentioned in Daniel 7:


Daniel 7
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

For some reason it has the characteristics of the 3rd metal, brass as well.

[CWH]

Hi gllgal,

I have just reply to your thread in Inner Wheels about the same issues. Please refer.

BTW, Revelation is supposed to reveal about events in the future that we or the Christian since the 1st century did not know. I do agree with you that there may be side-track to the past in verse 5 which every Christian since the 1st century knew that it refers to Christ:

5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The dragon that was willing to devour the child the moment it was born; the child could refer to Christianity as Christ is the founder of Christianity. The next verse in verse 5 side-tracks to the past event about the birth of Jesus. The rest of the verse after verse 5 is rather mysterious, when did Virgin Mary fled to the desert to be taken care of for 1,260 days? and when did the dragon ran after the woman with a flood and the earth swallowed the flood? The flood probably means the dragon armies and the earth that swallowed the flood probably means God's armies.

Regarding horns, my interpretation is that horns are attached to the animal and is used to help the animal defend herself, therefore horns assist the animal in defence, in other words horns are nations or leaders of nations that support and assist the beast to defend himself.

Many Blessings.

[Silence]

Hello All,
I have a slightly different take on several aspects of what is being discussed in this thread. One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the clay is distinct from the metals. Heat melts metal but hardens clay. Up to this point, the image has been all metal. Why would a kingdom of iron mix itself with clay?
I believe the gold, silver, brass, and iron are symbolic of the spiritual powers that were behind the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Clay is often used in scripture to describe mankind. I believe the attempt to mix iron with clay hearkens back to what happened in Genesis 6 with the sons of elohim taking wives from among men and bearing the "mighty men of old". The motivation for doing this goes back even further to Genesis 1:2, where the world had become "empty and void" as a result of Lucifer's attempt to usurp God's authority. Lucifer made a mess of the earth and could not fix it. God then began to re-create and change things into a new system. I believe this is where Lucifer becomes satan "the accuser" as he accuses God of not allowing him enough time to fix the mess he had made. God set man up as the instrument to be used in finishing the transformation He had begun in Genesis 1:3. God put him in the garden to tend and to "keep" it. The word 'keep' means to hedge about with thorns, and implies that there was something the garden needed to be protected from. (the next time it is used in scripture is when Cain asks God "Am I my brother's 'keeper'?".) Man was also told to fill the earth and subdue it. This implies there was something in the earth that was not subdued as yet and man was to expand his influence throughout the earth.
Lucifer/satan has not given up on proving that he can rule the earth his own way, but the only way he can do it is through man. That is what was behind Genesis 6, and the meaning behind Daniel 2:43 where "they" mingle themselves with the seed of men. In order for "they" to mingle with the seed of men, "they" must be something other than the seed of men. There has to be a difference between the two classes. And in this case the difference is not slight, it is the difference between metal and clay.

The mention of brass and iron together again later in the book of Daniel is interesting because not only is it seen in Daniel 7, but it is found in chapter 4 also. When Nebuchadnezzar loses his kingdom for 7 years, the symbolic "stump" that is left to him is bound with a band of iron and brass. I wonder if this is symbolic of "western" dominance (Greece and Rome). I know the Medo/Persian empire came in between Babylon and Greece, but this empire gets the distinction of being "inferior" in Daniel 2, and so could be left out. It is also interesting that gold and silver are very often paired together in scripture as are brass and iron. I don't recall ever seeing gold and iron paired together, or silver and brass.

[gilgal]

Hi gllgal,

I have just reply to your thread in Inner Wheels about the same issues. Please refer.

BTW, Revelation is supposed to reveal about events in the future that we or the Christian since the 1st century did not know. I do agree with you that there may be side-track to the past in verse 5 which every Christian since the 1st century knew that it refers to Christ:

5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The dragon that was willing to devour the child the moment it was born; the child could refer to Christianity as Christ is the founder of Christianity. The next verse in verse 5 side-tracks to the past event about the birth of Jesus. The rest of the verse after verse 5 is rather mysterious, when did Virgin Mary fled to the desert to be taken care of for 1,260 days? and when did the dragon ran after the woman with a flood and the earth swallowed the flood? The flood probably means the dragon armies and the earth that swallowed the flood probably means God's armies.

Regarding horns, my interpretation is that horns are attached to the animal and is used to help the animal defend herself, therefore horns assist the animal in defence, in other words horns are nations or leaders of nations that support and assist the beast to defend himself.

Many Blessings.

Horns are not limited to nations. I think they're powerful men that are able to attack. The water coming out of the mouth I believe is the propaganda set against Christians. I don't know enough about Christian history but when Christians were persecuted they fled to the caves. Could that be synonymous to this chapter?

[gilgal]

Hello All,
I have a slightly different take on several aspects of what is being discussed in this thread. One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the clay is distinct from the metals. Heat melts metal but hardens clay. Up to this point, the image has been all metal. Why would a kingdom of iron mix itself with clay?
I believe the gold, silver, brass, and iron are symbolic of the spiritual powers that were behind the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Clay is often used in scripture to describe mankind. I believe the attempt to mix iron with clay hearkens back to what happened in Genesis 6 with the sons of elohim taking wives from among men and bearing the "mighty men of old". The motivation for doing this goes back even further to Genesis 1:2, where the world had become "empty and void" as a result of Lucifer's attempt to usurp God's authority. Lucifer made a mess of the earth and could not fix it. God then began to re-create and change things into a new system. I believe this is where Lucifer becomes satan "the accuser" as he accuses God of not allowing him enough time to fix the mess he had made. God set man up as the instrument to be used in finishing the transformation He had begun in Genesis 1:3. God put him in the garden to tend and to "keep" it. The word 'keep' means to hedge about with thorns, and implies that there was something the garden needed to be protected from. (the next time it is used in scripture is when Cain asks God "Am I my brother's 'keeper'?".) Man was also told to fill the earth and subdue it. This implies there was something in the earth that was not subdued as yet and man was to expand his influence throughout the earth.
Lucifer/satan has not given up on proving that he can rule the earth his own way, but the only way he can do it is through man. That is what was behind Genesis 6, and the meaning behind Daniel 2:43 where "they" mingle themselves with the seed of men. In order for "they" to mingle with the seed of men, "they" must be something other than the seed of men. There has to be a difference between the two classes. And in this case the difference is not slight, it is the difference between metal and clay.

The mention of brass and iron together again later in the book of Daniel is interesting because not only is it seen in Daniel 7, but it is found in chapter 4 also. When Nebuchadnezzar loses his kingdom for 7 years, the symbolic "stump" that is left to him is bound with a band of iron and brass. I wonder if this is symbolic of "western" dominance (Greece and Rome). I know the Medo/Persian empire came in between Babylon and Greece, but this empire gets the distinction of being "inferior" in Daniel 2, and so could be left out. It is also interesting that gold and silver are very often paired together in scripture as are brass and iron. I don't recall ever seeing gold and iron paired together, or silver and brass.

There is however the combination of brass and iron in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
But, looking at the use of these two together I wonder why? It's true that The Romans used the Greek language primarily. But why didn't Daniel 7 use gold on the flying lion or silver on the bear...?

I'm doing this to make iron sharpen iron!:D

[CWH]

Hi,

In regards to the 5 materials described in Daniel 2, there may be a link to the atomic number of the elements; with the heavier ones first and the lightest last. I am not sure of the significance but looking at the Periodic table of elements and the 5 materials used to describe these kingdoms in chronological order, we have:
Gold = 79 (Persia)
Silver = 47 (Medes)
Copper/Zinc (Brass) = 29/30 (Greece)
Iron = 26 (Roman)
Clay (AlSiO3) i.e. Aluminium, Silicon, Oxygen = 13/14/8 (Iron + Clay = ? EU)

I need to understand from the numerology viewpoints, perhaps we can get some leads; any insight into the numbers?

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

Hi,

I am a little confused here; some Bible versions say bronze and not brass, which is which?:

Daniel 7
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;


There is a big difference between brass and bronze. Brass is Copper + Zinc (atomic number = 29 + 30) and Bronze is Copper + Tin (atomic number = 29 + 50). Brass was less well known during Daniel's time compared to bronze. Bronze is known to be used in making weapons in the ancient times, not so with brass.

If it is Bronze (atomic number 29 + 50 = 79) then Bronze is = Gold (atomic number 79). Does that mean the third beast (the Greek empire under Alexander) and the fourth beast with its nail of ?bronze(Roman Empire) was as powerful as the Persian/Mede empire under Nebuchadnezzar (Gold)?

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

Hi,

Further to my above post, I believe the idea of Gold medal, Silver medal and Bronze medal for the winners in the Olympics came from Daniel 2:
31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.

The Gold medal is given to the best performer in the Olympic games, the silver for the second best and bronze medal for the runner up. Such arrangement is analogous to the Babylonian Empire scoring a gold, the Persian/Mede Empire scoring a silver and the Greek scoring a bronze in terms of power or majesty of the empires. Iron and Clay have no placings in the Olympics but there are attempts to change the type of medals in the future Olympics yet Iron and Clay was thought to represent the Roman Empire which was said to be greatest empire of all! Certainly, Iron is the hardest of all but not majestic.

Originally Posted by Silence
Hello All,
I have a slightly different take on several aspects of what is being discussed in this thread. One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the clay is distinct from the metals. Heat melts metal but hardens clay. Up to this point, the image has been all metal. Why would a kingdom of iron mix itself with clay?
I believe the gold, silver, brass, and iron are symbolic of the spiritual powers that were behind the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Clay is often used in scripture to describe mankind. I believe the attempt to mix iron with clay hearkens back to what happened in Genesis 6 with the sons of elohim taking wives from among men and bearing the "mighty men of old".

it is also interesting to note that the gold-silver-bronze medals in Olympics have connection with Greek mythology of the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age. It also mentioned we are currently in the Iron Age. This raise 2 possibilities:
1. We are living in the Iron Age as mentioned in Daniel 2 :31, "legs of iron and feet partly iron, partly clay". The 4th kingdom may refer to the present.
2. The 4 kingdoms of gold, silver, bronze, iron is related to Greek mythology.

PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_medal

Excerpts:
Medals have historically been given as prizes in various types of competitive activities, especially athletics.

Traditionally, medals are made of the following metals:

Gold (or another yellow metal, e.g. brass)
Silver (or another grey metal, e.g. steel)
Bronze
These metals designate the first three Ages of Man in Greek mythology: the Golden Age, when men lived among the gods; the Silver age, where youth lasted a hundred years; and the Bronze Age, the era of heroes. (The current age is called the Iron Age.) Note that the metals are progressively more prone to corrosion.

This standard was adopted at the 1904 Summer Olympics. At the 1896 event, silver was awarded to winners and bronze to runners-up, while at 1900 other prizes were given, not medals.



Many Blessings:)

[CWH]

Hi,

As I researched further into the Ages of Man, more surprises turn out. It seems the metals - gold, silver, bronze, iron are found in many mythologies beside Greek including Roman, Aztec, Hindus and they talked about the different ages of mankind. It even have a reference to Daniel 2. It is interesting and worthwhile to read this article found in wikipedia and I am beginning to believe that the gold, silver, bronze and iron kingdoms of Daniel 2 have some connections with the mythologies described. It even have some linkage to the description of the Patriarch Age of Genesis whereby people live several hundred years and the age after the Great Flood whereby people live a few hundred years to perhaps the present Age which is described as the Iron Age:

PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man

Many Blessings.

[CWH]

Hi,

This is now confirmed, the Brass mentioned in Daniel 2 and 7 is Bronze. Lets not be confused. This is explained in wikipedia on Brass:

Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin.[2] Despite this distinction, some types of brasses are called bronzes.....The many references to 'brass' appearing throughout the King James Bible are thought to signify another bronze alloy, or copper, rather than the strict modern definition of 'brass'.[3]

Daniel 7
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;


Many Blessings.

[CWH]

Hello All,
I have a slightly different take on several aspects of what is being discussed in this thread. One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the clay is distinct from the metals. Heat melts metal but hardens clay. Up to this point, the image has been all metal. Why would a kingdom of iron mix itself with clay?
I believe the gold, silver, brass, and iron are symbolic of the spiritual powers that were behind the Babylonian, Medo/Persian, Greek and Roman empires. Clay is often used in scripture to describe mankind. I believe the attempt to mix iron with clay hearkens back to what happened in Genesis 6 with the sons of elohim taking wives from among men and bearing the "mighty men of old". The motivation for doing this goes back even further to Genesis 1:2, where the world had become "empty and void" as a result of Lucifer's attempt to usurp God's authority. Lucifer made a mess of the earth and could not fix it. God then began to re-create and change things into a new system. I believe this is where Lucifer becomes satan "the accuser" as he accuses God of not allowing him enough time to fix the mess he had made. God set man up as the instrument to be used in finishing the transformation He had begun in Genesis 1:3. God put him in the garden to tend and to "keep" it. The word 'keep' means to hedge about with thorns, and implies that there was something the garden needed to be protected from. (the next time it is used in scripture is when Cain asks God "Am I my brother's 'keeper'?".) Man was also told to fill the earth and subdue it. This implies there was something in the earth that was not subdued as yet and man was to expand his influence throughout the earth.
Lucifer/satan has not given up on proving that he can rule the earth his own way, but the only way he can do it is through man. That is what was behind Genesis 6, and the meaning behind Daniel 2:43 where "they" mingle themselves with the seed of men. In order for "they" to mingle with the seed of men, "they" must be something other than the seed of men. There has to be a difference between the two classes. And in this case the difference is not slight, it is the difference between metal and clay.

The mention of brass and iron together again later in the book of Daniel is interesting because not only is it seen in Daniel 7, but it is found in chapter 4 also. When Nebuchadnezzar loses his kingdom for 7 years, the symbolic "stump" that is left to him is bound with a band of iron and brass. I wonder if this is symbolic of "western" dominance (Greece and Rome). I know the Medo/Persian empire came in between Babylon and Greece, but this empire gets the distinction of being "inferior" in Daniel 2, and so could be left out. It is also interesting that gold and silver are very often paired together in scripture as are brass and iron. I don't recall ever seeing gold and iron paired together, or silver and brass.

Hi Silence,

I would like to answer the question you posted "One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the clay is distinct from the metals. Heat melts metal but hardens clay. Up to this point, the image has been all metal. Why would a kingdom of iron mix itself with clay?"
Yes, there are 4 metals i.e. gold, silver, bronze and iron. We knew from history that these 4 metals were the kingdoms of the Babylonian(gold), Medes(silver), Greek(bronze) and Roman(iron) empires.

Then,there is a non-metal ,clay (which is the 5th kingdom) which is comprized chemically of Aluminium, Silicon and Oxygen. These elements Aluminium, Silicon, and Oxygen can be classified as Metal, Non-metal and Gas. These elements are used extensively in industries...military, electronics etc. Clay is also an important material in buildings. Clay therefore suggests that this 5th kingdom of iron mixed with clay is a combination of several nations of different economic, industrial and military strength. Since iron is suggestive of the Roman Empire and clay is suggestive of different nations with different economic, industrial and military strength, is indicative of a Revived Roman Empire which I personally believe is the European Union. The EU currently is comprized of 27 European nations of different ecominic, military and industrial strength. Yet if combined together, they will become the biggest economic superpower in terms of GDP and world trade; bigger than the USA.Their industrial power if combined is also the greatest in the world. Their military strength i.e. land, sea and air if combined is also among the largest and most powerful in the world. Their nuclear capability if combined is also quite formidable, the fourth largest in the world.

God Blessed.