The Horses and Chariots of Zechariah

[CWH]

Hi,

I would like to discuss about the 4 horses and chariots of Zechariah 6. Some people link the 4 horses of Zechariah with the 4 horsemen of Revelation. I am not sure. Note also the coincidence of the chapters; Zechariah Chapter 6 and Revelation Chapter 6.

Zechariah 6:
1 I looked up again—and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze! 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?"
5 The angel answered me, "These are the four spirits [a] of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, [b] and the one with the dappled horses toward the south."

Horses were used in wars so were chariots and they spell troubles and sufferings. It is stated in verse 5 that the chariots pulled by the horses are the spirits of heaven.

Colors of horses may mean the following:
1.) White symbolizes purity

2.) Red symbolizes the shedding of blood

3.) Black symbolizes starvation

4.) Dappled symbolizes death

We are also told that the
1) black horse chariot going towards the north country (causing starvation?)
2) white horse chariot towards the west (causing purity?)
3) dappled horse chariot towards the south (causing death?)
However there is no mention of the chariot with the red horse (supposedly going east causing bloodshed)

We were also told in the susequence verse that the black horse chariot went to the north country were given rest to the Spirit. Does that mean caused starvation to the north country to the satisfaction of God? Anything from the historical point of views i.e. starvation in the north, purity in the west, death in the south and bloodshed in the east?

7 When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth. And he said, "Go throughout the earth!" So they went throughout the earth.

8 Then he called to me, "Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit [c] rest in the land of the north."

Many blessings.

[Victor]

Hi,

I would like to discuss about the 4 horses and chariots of Zechariah 6. Some people link the 4 horses of Zechariah with the 4 horsemen of Revelation. I am not sure. Note also the coincidence of the chapters; Zechariah Chapter 6 and Revelation Chapter 6.


It is a great coincidence indeed. But it goes even beyond that. Note that the visions span the exact same verses: Zechariah 6:1-8 and Revelation 6:1-8.

The Number 6 is connected to horses, horsemen and chariots in the Bible. The first appearance of a number in association with them is in Exodus 14:17.

Exo 14:7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
And there is even more than that...

[CWH]

It is a great coincidence indeed. But it goes even beyond that. Note that the visions span the exact same verses: Zechariah 6:1-8 and Revelation 6:1-8.

The Number 6 is connected to horses, horsemen and chariots in the Bible. The first appearance of a number in association with them is in Exodus 14:17.

Exo 14:7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
And there is even more than that...


Hi Victor,

Please explain "there is even more than that....". I am keen to know as I am beginning to see some connections with the 4 horsemen in Revelation. Why hang us in suspension?

Many Blessings

[Victor]

Hi Victor,

Please explain "there is even more than that....". I am keen to know as I am beginning to see some connections with the 4 horsemen in Revelation. Why hang us in suspension?

Many Blessings

Hi Cheow, it is just that there is a lot to say and no corresponding amount of time to say it all.

In this specific context, I'm saying that there's a lot that links the theme of "Horses" to the Number Six in the structure of the Bible.

For example, there is a striking appearance of "spiritual horses" in 2 Kings 6! The Sixth Epistle is the one to the Phillipians, and their city was named after the father of Alexander the Great, Phillipi, whose name means "friend of horses"!

And there is an important "Phillip" in the Bible, who first appears in Acts 6! His name appears together with other appointed ministers, and some of their names have meanings connected to "crown" (Stephen) and "victory/conquering" (Nicanor and Nicolas) which are the same Greek words used in the description of the first horsemen in Revelation 6. (Acts 6:5)

On the Bible Wheel you'll find that the Epistle to the Phillipians is aligned with the Book of Hosea, which is the Sixth Book of the Prophets. And the early part of the prophecy of Hosea states:

Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
Note that there are six elements that could have been means of salvation to the Israelites (the Lord, bow, sword, battle, horses, horsemen), but only one does really save: "the Lord their God"! It is like the proverb says:

Pro 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.
The Hebrew word "safety" here is the one commonly translated as "salvation", just as in Hosea! And "Hosea" also means "salvation"!

God does not save with horses and horsemen, but through himself in the form of man. His Incarnation has much to do with the Number 6, for 6 is the Number of Man (and in the Sixth Epistle we have a summary of the Doctrine of Incarnation - Phillipians 2).

And of course God used in the past horses of flesh to bring desolation and judgment, as in the case of the Babylon of old:

Jer 50:42 They shall hold the bow and the lance: they are cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, every one put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon.
The bolded words are unique to Jeremiah 50 and Hosea. Jeremiah 50 corresponds to Book 50, Phillipians. We thus have a KeyLink between Jeremiah 50 and Hosea.

The structure of the Bible is totally interconnected.

[CWH]

Thanks Victor,

Appreciate your inputs. Very insightful. I never know there are so many connections. It will take me some time to digest.

Many Blessings to you.:yo:

[CWH]

Hi,


Zechariah 6:
1 I looked up again—and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze! 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?"
5 The angel answered me, "These are the four spirits [a] of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, [b] and the one with the dappled horses toward the south."

Horses were used in wars so were chariots and they spell troubles and sufferings. It is stated in verse 5 that the chariots pulled by the horses are the spirits of heaven.

Colors of horses may mean the following:
1.) White symbolizes purity

2.) Red symbolizes the shedding of blood

3.) Black symbolizes starvation

4.) Dappled symbolizes death

We are also told that the
1) black horse chariot going towards the north country (causing starvation?)
2) white horse chariot towards the west (causing purity?)
3) dappled horse chariot towards the south (causing death?)
However there is no mention of the chariot with the red horse (supposedly going east causing bloodshed).


Hi,

Just realizes that if you combine the 1st alphabet of all the 4 horses of Zechariah going in the 4 directions of North, West, South, East, it gives the word "NEWS". It is news that the 4 horses are going in all 4 directions throughout the world causing various disasters. This is including the white horse spreading purity yet causing destruction and sufferings. The white horse of Zechariah is also the white horse in the 1st seal of Revelation which is interpreted as spreading Christianity (i.e. the Good NEWS) throughout the world (world = in the 4 directions NEWS). Furthermore, the white horse of Zechariah is the west wind i.e from the West (Europe).

This may be considered as co-incidence or word-play, but who confused the languages of the world? God of course. Therefore whether word/word play or not there may be divine meanings in words.

Many Blessings.

[Victor]

Very nice acronym! NEWS >> North, East, West, South. News spreads to all directions!

This reminds me of the following passage:

Isa 52:7,10 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!"
The LORD will lay bare his holy arm
in the sight of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation of our God.

[CWH]

The 4 colored horses of Zechariah are well connected with the 4 horsemen of Revelation. I have found a new revelation linking the 4 horsemen of Revelation 6 and the 4 colored horses of Zechariah:

Zechariah 6:
1 I looked up again—and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze! 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?"
5 The angel answered me, "These are the four spirits [a] of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south."

[B]Revelation 6:
1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages,[b] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

1st seal - the whitehorseman represents the powers of Europe from the Roman Empire to the colonial powers that helped the spread of the gospels throughout the whole world.

Zechariah 6: the white horses toward the West (west of Israel) i.e. Europe


2nd seal: the red horseman represents the rise of communism which created civil wars among many nations and killed at least 200 million people. Notable communist countries are in the East of Israel....China, North Korea, Mongolia, Indochina.

Zechariah 6: (not mentioned but obviously the red horse going toward the East of Israel with the black horse to the north, the white horse to the west and dappled horse to the south).


3rd seal - the black horse represents a black wheat rust (ug99) that caused world famine by attacking wheat and barley. Currently this black wheat rust has spread northwards to Iran and is poised to go into Pakistan, India, the Steppes of Russia, China i.e. toward the north/northeast of Israel.

Zechariah 6: the black horse going toward the north country


4th seal - The pale horse represent war/wars that caused famine, plague, diseases and by means of wild animals that killed a fourth of the earth.... ? nuclear war?

Zechariah 6: the dappled horse going toward the south.....? The Arab League and the African nations? i.e. countries south of Israel..

**Note the co-incidence of Revelation 6 and Zechariah 6.

The four colored horses have been assigned to go throughout the earth. Since all prophecy is written from the perspective of Jerusalem, the horses where assigned in relation to Jerusalem.
1. White - the West
********** 2. Red - the East
********************** 3. Black - the North
********************************** 4. Pale - the South

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz234/cheowweehock/Cheow/1c01a668.jpg

Please see also my thread on the 1st to the 4th seals of Revelation:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=918

Many Blessings to all.

[Mad Mick]

Revelation has been my passion for twenty years, its the one book I've read the most so I hope to steer you all in the right direction in the name of Jesus, who is the Word not just the author.

Cheow as far as the 1st horseman is concerned I totally agree, the four are of Satan's Division, they are his counterfeit/counter attack who are his representatives mimicking but really mocking the 4 Seraphim. Yes they stood before the throne as did Satan as well as the rest he deceived. In Rev. 19:20, 20:10 and 20:14 it says 1.Beast 2.False Prophet 3.Satan 4.Death 5.Hades. all get thrown into the lake of fire.

Now bear with me Hades was following Death. You have to understand that all matter is layered and that everything that can be described has a ruling spirit eg. Wisdom, Patience, Tree, Stone, Deception, Sun, Atom etc. everything.

Death is both the description of what happens when a spirit is separated from its host region/matter within a specific dimension and the name given to the spirit whose Satanic Divisional role at this time is to claim those he has deceived. We wrongly state when a saint dies that death has taken them.

Hades too is a Spirit in control of the region of hell, you'll notice that these two work as a pair as do the Beast and False Prophet, countering useful tactics utilized in heaven, much as Jesus directed the saints.

People get confused in revelation because of the complex layering but this year I hope to get a start on a narrative which should put a lot of misconception aside. We need to understand how God used the Babylonians to serve his purpose, yet they too were judged never to return!

Now it's interesting to note that there are 5 entities that are mentioned who are thrown into the lake. These are the 5 major power points of the Pentagrammatical Hierarchy of which Satan is at the Head. Next are his three main Generals, White, Red and Black. Like Davids Mighty men there were the 3, then the 30, but 37 in all with David 38.

Satan mimics this order, where the 3 are included in the 33 Degrees. The Qur'an gives part of this order away by claiming that there are eight spirits surrounding God and 19 guarding Hell. Where as it is clear that the order surrounding God is 4 then 24 with the 7 standing before him. No the eight are Satan and his 7, the 19 are Satan and 18 head Demons who were separated from heaven written in the book of Enoch! These 19 together are spiritually tied to the 19 year moon phase where the 5, 8 and 13 with Venus are Satan's counter use of God's creative order.

We have to verify everything through the understanding of these counter spirits which cannot be haphazardly misrepresented without a consequence, so please everyone in the future understand that number or colour alone can mean anything. Especially this misconception that these horsemen are not in opposition to God. Yes God is using them in as much as he used the evil of the Babylonians or Satan himself.

As far as I am concerned Cheow your diligence in revealing these relationships is exceptional please don't hesitate to drop me a note on any issue regarding Prophecy, Science or the Occult.
Mick

PS. Don't be fooled about pre trib. rapture.
1 Cor. 15:51 and Rev. 20:4 pretty much sums it up. These Pussy Christians are leading a lot of people astray which can only mean when the crunch comes many wont be prepared.

Men whom I respect like Chuck Missler and Greg Laurie are of this group, yet even they state you are not doing any harm or blaspheming in any way by expecting the rapture after the tribulation. I still find it alarming though that so many well known personalities are being so light hearted about this subject.

The left behind series and the like has been mainly at fault for this, which in the end means that many who are unprepared will more than likely take the mark or go through a greater anguish/trial than necessary.

[CWH]

Thanks Mick for your commendations:yo:

Me too Revelation has been my passion for many years and it's nothing more worth rewarding when the revelations slowing emerge before the eyes... the "Aha" feelings. I am not sure if the 4 horsemen were Satan's divisions but what I do know is that from seal 1 to seal 7 are events that bring about many death and hardships and seal 1 to seal 4 seems to be human progress related as the horsemen means man-driven disasters. I am particularly interested in seal 3 and seal 4 which seem to indicate coming major events.

Many Blessings to you.

[Mad Mick]

Cheow, the few things we can all agree on through this exercise, as a general consensus are these,

1. The fourth Horseman, Death gets thrown in the Lake of fire.
Which in the future may sway the consensus to believe as we do that all four are sided with Satan or will face judgment.

2. There is definite symbolic similarity between The Four Seraphim and the four Horsemen.
As a result of this thread, I'll be definitely looking for more anti-groups (meaning counter groups opposing the heavenly order) of fours linked with the Horsemen.

One other point of interest is the fact that:-
1. In 7:1-3 an Angel holding the seal of the living God, commands these 4 not to harm anyone until the 144,000 are sealed for their identification and protection.

2. Rev. 9:14 says release the 4 Angels that were bound

Qu.1: Are these 2 groups of 4 Angels one and the same?

There is a strong case that these 4 Angels in 9:14 are sided with Satan due to 4 points:-
1. They were bound
2. They were released
3. The Term Angel, is at times referred to Demons
4. They will kill a third of mankind
This third is significant to Satan's rebellion where a third of the stars (Angels) followed him. It seems that this corruption may carry on throughout creation, which could then imply they are permitted to affect only that which has sided or been corrupted with them, or the territory they may possess.

5. Demons can't hurt anyone unless God allows it. Main example is in the Book of Job, where Satan cannot hurt Job until God allows him to. ie. Could these Angels of 7:1-3 be Demons?

Qu.2: Cheow I was wondering what your view may be at the present under the light of this point. Do you think any of these Angels from these 2 verses are actually Demons?

(NB: Where a lot of commentators tend to lose themselves and contradict their own conjectures is when they forget that this entire saga from Creation to Tribulation or war is completely orchestrated by God. It is One sided. Unlike our misguided beliefs that if this happened or that happened maybe the outcome of war would have been different. Sure to us it seems like we do as we please, yet those forces in control of us seem to fight with God as the umpire who chooses to what extent of destruction shall take place. To me it's like the ultimate Olympic Games of War where both winners and losers could still either die or survive in the struggle, an ironic bitter/sweet taste of victory. As I hate war, this concept leaves me with a feeling of an uneasy fascination.)

Correction Note 1:- If the above is correct then my assumption to link these 4 wind Angels with the Seraphim in the united (same pole) group of 24 (which I conjectured in your previous "4 corners, winds" Thread) would therefore be incorrect. Lets wait and see how this pans out.

Finally:- This may now allude to a another order.
1. Highlighting the 4 Seraphim with 4 Whirling Wheels as a group of 8 and
2. The 4 Horseman NEWS with the 4 Corner/Wind Angels or the 9:14 Angels as the Anti/Counter group of 8.

Correction Note 2:- This may imply that the information in the Qur'an stipulating 8 Angels surrounding the throne of God may be technically correct, regardless of the fact whether the wheels are still beside the Seraphim or have unified with them.

I believe there may be any number of complete numerical groups linked to specific numbers of association which count the heavenly order prior to the rebellion,

For instance:

Inner circle (Just a crude example)

8 4 Seraphim and 4 Whirling Wheels (+ve)
8 7 Spirits and 1 Arch Angel (Michael) (+ve)

8 4 Horsemen and 4 Crnr/Wind Angels (-ve)
24 Sub Total

3 God, Jesus, Holy Spirit (+ve)

4 Satan, Beast, FalseProphet, Hell (-ve)

31 Total

Different numerical patterns would appear depending on criteria for the grouping ie. Inclusion of entities like heaven and hell, or only including created entities, or just the Angelic order etc.

I'm sure as time progresses as you mentioned we shall inch closer to the overall identification and symbiotic (if I may use the term) union between the Word, Wheel, Gematria and Geometric Organized Dimension.

No doubt you can see why my interests to this site are so intertwined.
Triple Blessing to you Cheow!
Mick

[CWH]

Hi Mick,

Thanks for the plausible idea of the 4 Horsemen being the 4 Generals of Satan. It is a new concept to me. But the main reason why I do not think the 4 horsemen of Revelation are the 4 generals of Satan is because the one who was worthy to open the seven seals was Jesus. I don't make much sense for Jesus to unleash the 4 Generals of Satan:

Revelation 5:"Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."


The seals are probably important major world events that will materialized from AD 70 onwards.

The 4 Seraphims certainly are connected to the 4 Horsemen.

2. There is definite symbolic similarity between The Four Seraphim and the four Horsemen.


As a result of this thread, I'll be definitely looking for more anti-groups (meaning counter groups opposing the heavenly order) of fours linked with the Horsemen.

One other point of interest is the fact that:-
1. In 7:1-3 an Angel holding the seal of the living God, commands these 4 not to harm anyone until the 144,000 are sealed for their identification and protection.

2. Rev. 9:14 says release the 4 Angels that were bound

Qu.1: Are these 2 groups of 4 Angels one and the same?


I believe the 2 groups of Angels are the same because they are both holding the 4 corners /winds of the earth and awaiting the command from God at the appropriate time to unleash their powers.

Triple Blessings to you too.

[Mad Mick]

Cheow, the term Seal is well rooted in history as a metaphor for finality. eg. "His fate is sealed," or "Death has sealed her for his own."

Literally the seal is the mark of authority, Jesus could not have been crucified in that Roman Province without the seal (issued to Pilot by the Emperor) stamped on the proclamation, issuing the penalty of death.

Now here is the other use for the seal. When a letter in confidentiality or secrecy is sent to another, the seal is placed so that it is only opened by the person for whom it is intended. God placed 7 seals on this proclamation in Heaven.

As we know Jesus alone was worthy to open the seals for he purchased the rights to mens souls, by living a life free of sin, then dying on the Cross, shedding his blood, in exchange for the sins of those who wish to be with him. God set an impossible task for Man, that we may recognize the worth of redemption for just one soul!

Now God is impartial, he gave everyone freedom of choice. God directs the time when Jesus is to open the seals to the proclamation. Now get this, the proclamation gives authority from GOD for the Angels to Seal those who are protected or purchased by Christ and for the Demons to Seal those whom they have purchased or deceived.

There are two kinds of seal here. One seal is to be opened that brings forth judgment, the other seal is to be placed on an individual that determines their own fate, ie. Deliverance or Damnation.

Remember Demons cannot do a single thing on Earth without Gods authority, he is Supreme. With one word he can wipe out all creation, from Heaven to Hell. This proclamation sets the rules of how this war of tribulation is to be carried out. Demons could not oppose this even if every Angel in Heaven were to change sides and try to help them.

Therefore as the Seals are opened by Jesus, the proclamation is being carried out one by one. Part of what happens is that in Rev. 7:3 an order is given that no harm shall be carried out until a Seal is placed on the servants of God.

In Rev. 13:16 is the well known, "He also forced everyone . . . . to receive a Mark . . ," Here the servants of Satan are forcing people to take his Seal, first by controlling all commerce with this Mark/Seal then later we find any who refuse will be punished by death. So we have 6 groups of people during this time:-

1. 144,000 Gods Seal, these have not been defiled by women, more than likely are children and the odd celibate virgin monk.

2. Satan's Seal, those who were saved but did not remain faithful and received "The Mark." Instant damnation whether you follow Jesus or not.
(I was told that the word Mark in Greek may also mean incision, which seems to verify the electronic chip theory).

3. Those who are unsaved and receive the Mark

4. Those who are saved, remain faithful and are Killed/Martyred for refusing the Mark

5. Those who are unsaved yet manage to avoid the Mark

6. Those who are saved, remain faithful, recieve Gods protection and manage to avoid the Mark, this final group as well as the first are those who will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and not see death (ie. Raptured).

It is a great honour to be deemed worthy for rapture. Only two men were recorded in the Bible, Enoch and Elijah who were taken to heaven without going through death. Their lives were great testimonies to the Lord, not easily achieved. They payed a high price for that honour, which couldn't be bought with Silver or Gold, only through great sufferance and Love for the Lord, could have such a thing come about . . . . . like the Great Tribulation. Those who believe in Pre Tribulation rapture do not take this into consideration. It is just wishful thinking that will unfortunately leave many unprepared.

Finally, this last point just to reiterate my reasoning regarding the 4 Horsemen as Satans Generals:-
1. We need to remember that at least one of these Horsemen is the Spirit called Death. He is one of the 5 mentioned (Satan included), who is thrown into the Lake of Fire. We need to understand that this Tribulation has been a long time coming and when Jesus opens the seals he is allowing the spirits and souls of this planet to separate good with good and evil with evil.

2. When hosts from heaven carry out Gods will he SENDS them and they GO. The Seraphim are commanding "Come!" to the Horsemen. For them to come they would have to be in Hell to travel TOWARDS them in Heaven to reach their designated positions on the Earth. Get it?

3. The third and final Key point is that from my recollection, wherever groups of 4 entities are mentioned in the bible, they are bound in Unity, basically they are on the same side. Geometrically 4 represents the tetrahedron, the most stable shape, where each corner is the same distance from each other. This signifies both equality and unity with one another. When we see the Horsemens agenda they do not oppose one another, which further solidifies this unity.

It seems the more I look into it the more this point proves to be correct.

PS. I need to put a letter together for an old friend (Chuck Missler) with my strong case for Post Tribulation Rapture, as you may already know he's a very Pro Pre Trib. kind of guy! If I'm to submit anything to him knowing how thorough his team can be, I'll need all the constructive criticism I can get, so I'll be posting a rough draft soon.

Since I've come to this site there's been so much to comment on, there was no need of me to bother with starting any new thread, but I think this issue on Rapture would prove to be quite popular and I'm surprised I haven't come across it anywhere, does anyone recall a thread already going, with this subject already covered, apart from what I've already posted?
Mick

[CWH]

Thanks Mick for your insight. Sounds reasonable although I am still not very convinced.

Where do you get the idea that the 4 Horsemen will go into the lake of fire? Where is the verse which says so.

If the 4 Horsemen of seal 1 to 4 of Revelation are Satan's generals, what about seals 5 to 7, are they also Satan's doing?

Many Blessings.

[Mad Mick]

G'Day Cheow, Rev. 20:14 Death and Hades get thrown in the lake.

Hey man, your brains must have really got fried for you to have missed this Quote previously! You're normally on the ball.

I've been reading some of the chat in the eschatology section, wanting to get better acquainted with this site and it's viewers and couldn't help but notice that you've been getting grilled over there!

When you've got solid points, stick to them and keep your message short.
You should never have to quote the whole verse. Also when you do have a win, Lodge it in your personal reasoning for whatever file, quote the scripture then a very brief point, enough for you to remember, that way by the end of all this time you've been defending your case, you'll end up with a powerful summary which you'll always be able to use in future debates, without having to read through the piles of posts.

Plus your point of view will get better and harder to refute which in time will really start to fry the opposing views of the other people. This is when "Iron begins to sharpen Iron,"

PS. I think it's time I come over there and help balance the equation. But I don't want to get sidetracked into some argument on belief. I've wasted enough man hours on a dead end with UG in the guest forum.

"Remember we're here for the fruit, not frustration!
People gain wisdom over time not torture!"

I can't help but notice your trying to sway their beliefs. No offense, I know it's good reasoning practice and all, but it just feels like your trying to witness to the saved. It's like listening to a Protestant argue with a Catholic. Neither get nowhere in a hurry.

Fewer words, get further faster!

Read Prov. 26:4-5 A very important scripture. We can't fight fire with fire, otherwise we'll burn someone! (ie. Ron Ben Yaakov)
Mick

[CWH]

Hi Mick,

Thanks for your advice. I don't see myself as a "beating boy" in this forum, neither am I trying to convert preterists,; in fact, I think they are trying to convert me. Fat Hope!. I guess I have already been over-cooked and hardened.

Before I joined this forum, I knew very little about preterism and their strange beliefs but now I am an expert. I am not really interested in challenging their beliefs but rather to put and share my ideas across and to learn and understand from the preterist's point of views. I am not here to say who is right or who is wrong but rather that all eschatological positions have its merits and may be right in certain aspects in their own biblical interpretations. I am open to all biblical interpretations as part of the process of learning, understanding and discovering the scriptures although I belong to the futurist's group.

BTW, I don't believe the 7 seals are Satan's doing but they were/are world events concerning or affecting Christianity and Christians starting from the time when Jesus died on the cross. It is the death of Christ on the cross that made Jesus the only one worthy to open the seven seals. The destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70 officially launched the 1st seal.

Many Blessings to you.

[Mad Mick]

Good, I feel I'm getting to know you much better after that.
No, I too don't believe Satans responsibe or plays a part in all the seals, as you read on it becomes pretty obvious. Regarding the first seal I'm putting together something which covers this in detail, I'll send you a line when it's done. It'll get posted in the eschatology section (where else, hey!). I'm just taking my time to put forward a worthy script.
c u soon.
Mick