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gregoryfl
05-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Eph 2:1 You were made alive when you were dead in trespasses and sins,

Notice that we were dead in two things, trespasses AND sins. There is a difference between the two.

Trespasses have to do with specific acts of sin, while sin (not sins, but sin) has to do with a state of being. In other words, trespasses are always about what a person does, while sin is about what a person is. Let me make one point of clarification though. There are actions that can be done that are called sins, but I am referring to sin itself, as a principle.

Under the law covenant, there was the sacrifice for sin, and the sacrifice for trespasses. While they seemed to be the same, they were not. Sins and trespasses are basically the same, but sin is not the same as either of them. Sin is the root law or principle, or state of existence, behind those acts that are called sins or trespasses.

With that in mind, here is what scripture says about the relationship between sin and our flesh, which needed to be dealt with by the sacrifice for sin. Paul described it this way:

Rom 7:17,18 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing.

All who have ever lived have lived in sinful flesh, flesh in which sin dwells. It is not alive however, until the law brings sin and temptation together in intercourse thus birthing the act of sin. This state of existence included Jesus himself, for it is said of him:

Rom 8:3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin...

2Co 5:21 For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The reason Jesus is said to have dwelt in the likeness of sinful flesh is because he never sinned. Because of that, he knew no sin. Yet, he was made to be sin for us. Why? Because by him being born of a woman, under law, and thus being shaped in iniquity, conceived in sin, thus dwelling in a sinful body, he could then condemn that sin by never giving into its desires. He lived under the law, which gave sin power in his body. The law brought the sin in his members and the temptations he faced together, but he never allowed the two to consummate. He was kept by the power of his Father dwelling in him so that sin never got one chance to be birthed in him. By him going all the way to his physical death without sinning, he was able to condemn sin in that very body of sin he lived in. In other words, he found sin guilty of killing an innocent man, one who had never sinned!

This may sound like blasphemy to speak of Jesus actually having sin in his body, but the problem is in identifying what one has with who they are. Dwelling in sinful bodies, being born in sin, does not make us sinners, anymore than me wearing a police uniform makes me a police officer. Living in bodies with sin in its members merely sets up impossible odds for anyone who is empty of Life, the Life of the one who made us to dwell in. Like Paul, we were all "alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and [we] died." Rom 7:9

Now though, we are apart from law, dead to it, so that, filled with the fullness of God in Christ, we are alive, never to die. This all came about because Christ took that sinful body of his outside the camp, in which dwelt the beginning of that new creation of which we are a part of, and sacrificed it, and us in him, as sin. That body of sin is no more. His body is now one of immortality, glory, power, and spiritual.

Nowhere in scripture is it said that Christ was our trespass offering. Rather, he is only spoken of as our sin offering. Here is one such instance:

Heb 13:11,12 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside of the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate.

This is a direct fulfillment of the type, spoken of here:

Lev 4:21 He shall carry forth the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull. It is the sin offering for the assembly.

The reason it was to be outside the camp was because it was a repulsive sacrifice, unlike some of the others, such as a simple burnt offering given on occasion which were sweet smelling sacrifices to him. The offering for sin symbolized the rejection of that sin on the one bearing the sin. Sin was thus condemned and consumed.

Why is this distinction important? Christ could not be a sacrifice of trespasses because he never sinned. He did however dwell in a body of sin, which is why he could be our sacrifice for sin.

How then were our trespasses dealt with? He dealt with the root, the source, sin itself, which dwells in our bodies. He destroyed sin's power by killing us so that rather than being dead in sins, we are now dead to sin. Every act that could flow out of that root has been dealt with totally, with finality. Paul speaks about it this way:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up through our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.

Notice that he was not delivered up for his own trespasses, but ours. Nowhere does scripture say he was made to be a transgressor. He could not be, for he never sinned. He is spoken of as being made sin however. This, as I have shared above, was the condition he was born in, although most confuse the issue by saying he was made sin only on the cross. Not so. They are confusing the difference between sin and trespass. Our trespasses, our acts of sin, were borne by him on the cross. This is how he dealt with what we do. But he went further than that, for trespasses and sins are merely the symptom of a greater problem, sin itself. Therefore he himself was made sin when he was conceived in his mothers womb "brought forth in iniquity. In sin [his] mother conceived [him]. Ps 51:5 It was in this state of who he was that he dealt with who we were, for we, in him, died that day with him and thus all of the old Adam died that day, and sin itself dealt with.

We today, who have Christ in us, are in the same place Christ was while he was on earth, as Paul said in Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

That is reality. His body was subject to the same frailty, futility, and decay that ours is. As a flesh and blood human, he could not, in that state, inherit the kingdom of God anymore than we can in ours. He is no longer in such a body, having put on the dwelling of God himself after his body was raised from the dead.

The truth of the matter is, nothing good dwells in our fleshly body. It is indeed dead because of sin. Sin dwells there, dead though it may be, being separated from law. This is why we do not evaluate anyone according to the flesh, nor do we judge based on the flesh, that which is outward. It is a bogus evaluation because it is based on who we used to be. And by the way, when I say anyone, I am speaking of everyone you come into contact with, not just believers. God is at peace, and conciliated with every person, whether they believe it or not.

That is also why we do not find our identity in the flesh. Please understand that neither did Christ when he was on earth. He always identified himself with reality, who he truly was, as the joining of God and man together. That is God's calling for us as well, to speak of what is true with ourselves and each other. Not only that, but we also do not evaluate Christ by his flesh either. We often fail to think of that, but it is what Paul said. Gone are the days of looking at the gospels and making judgments about our Lord based on his human life in the flesh. He is who he is now, and that is how we see him and relate to him.

In saying "It is finished," he truly could say that, having condemned sin itself, and all which spring from it's law, in his body. Thus we all died to both sin AND transgression, which we were in at one time, freed to be placed in another, namely, Christ.

gregoryfl
05-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Picture a tree:

If the tree is rotten, or bad, that can be likened to Sin. That speaks of the condition of the tree.

A tree produces 2 things, foliage and fruit.

The fruit of the tree can be likened to sins. They are what the tree produces. A rotten tree produces bad fruit.

The foliage can be likened to trespasses. They, like fruit, are what the tree produces, but there is an obvious difference between a leaf and a fruit.

All foliage is fruit, but not all fruit is foliage.

Same with sins and trespasses.

Sins come from sin. They are what sin produces.

Trespasses also come from sin. They, like sins, are what sin produces, but there is an obvious difference between trespasses and sins.

All trespass are sins, but not sins are trespasses.

gregoryfl
05-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘If anyone sins unintentionally, in any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done, and does any one of them: if the anointed priest sins so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer for his sin, which he has sinned, a young bull without blemish to Yahweh for a sin offering. He shall bring the bull to the door of the Tent of Meeting before Yahweh; and he shall lay his hand on the head of the bull, and kill the bull before Yahweh. The anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull, and bring it to the Tent of Meeting. The priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before Yahweh, before the veil of the sanctuary. The priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense before Yahweh, which is in the Tent of Meeting; and he shall pour out all of rest of the blood of the bull at the base of the altar of burnt offering, which is at the door of the Tent of Meeting. He shall take all the fat of the bull of the sin offering off of it; the fat that covers the innards, and all the fat that is on the innards, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the loins, and the cover on the liver, with the kidneys, he shall take away, as it is taken off of the bull of the sacrifice of peace offerings. The priest shall burn them on the altar of burnt offering. The bull’s skin, all its flesh, with its head, and with its legs, its innards, and its dung, even the whole bull shall he carry forth outside the camp to a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn it on wood with fire. Where the ashes are poured out it shall be burned.

“‘If the whole congregation of Israel sins, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done, and are guilty; when the sin in which they have sinned is known, then the assembly shall offer a young bull for a sin offering, and bring it before the Tent of Meeting. The elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before Yahweh; and the bull shall be killed before Yahweh. The anointed priest shall bring of the blood of the bull to the Tent of Meeting: and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before Yahweh, before the veil. He shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is before Yahweh, that is in the Tent of Meeting; and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering, which is at the door of the Tent of Meeting. All its fat he shall take from it, and burn it on the altar. Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. He shall carry forth the bull outside the camp, and burn it as he burned the first bull. It is the sin offering for the assembly.

“‘When a ruler sins, and unwittingly does any one of all the things which Yahweh his God has commanded not to be done, and is guilty; if his sin, in which he has sinned, is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish. He shall lay his hand on the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before Yahweh. It is a sin offering. The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering. He shall pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering. All its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and he will be forgiven.

“‘If anyone of the common people sins unwittingly, in doing any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done, and is guilty; if his sin, which he has sinned, is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has sinned. He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering. The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. All its fat he shall take away, like the fat is taken away from off of the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasant aroma to Yahweh; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

“‘If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish. He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering, and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering. The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. All its fat he shall take away, like the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them on the altar, on the offerings of Yahweh made by fire; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin that he has sinned, and he will be forgiven. -Lev 4

In this chapter Moses writes concerning the sin offering. Notice the following:

‘If anyone sins unintentionally, in any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done, and does any one of them:... “‘If the whole congregation of Israel sins, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done,... “‘When a ruler sins, and unwittingly does any one of all the things which Yahweh his God has commanded not to be done,... “‘If anyone of the common people sins unwittingly, in doing any of the things which Yahweh has commanded not to be done,

1) No specific acts of sin are mentioned. He just speaks of sin in general, any of the ones that are broken. Notice also that these are sins of which the person was not aware of committing. The reason sins are not named is because the sin offering is concerned with the ROOT of the problem, the condition of the person.

He shall bring the bull to the door of the Tent of Meeting before Yahweh; and he shall lay his hand on the head of the bull, and kill the bull before Yahweh.

2) The priest lays his hands on the animal. The practice of laying on of hands is symbolic of transference. In this case, it is transferring the sin of the person or persons onto the sacrifice.

The anointed priest shall take some of the [1] blood of the bull, and bring it to the Tent of Meeting. The priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before Yahweh, before the veil of the sanctuary. The priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of sweet incense before Yahweh, which is in the Tent of Meeting; and he shall pour out all of rest of the blood of the bull at the base of the altar of burnt offering, which is at the door of the Tent of Meeting. He shall take all the [2] fat of the bull of the sin offering off of it; the fat that covers the innards, and all the fat that is on the innards, and the [3] two kidneys, and the fat that is on them, which is by the loins, and the fatty cover on the liver, with the kidneys, he shall take away, as it is taken off of the bull of the sacrifice of peace offerings. The priest shall burn them on the altar of burnt offering.

3) After it is killed, there are 3 things that are removed and presented before the Lord. Father just showed me this morning how this is significant in our understanding of how God looks at us.

The first thing that is removed is the blood, which is presented in 3 ways before the Lord, before the veil, on the altar of sweet incense, and at the base of the altar of burnt offering. Blood represents life, as scripture speaks of the soul, or life, of a person being in the blood.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with its life, its blood, you shall not eat.

This 3-fold presenting of the life of the sacrifice speaks of the totality of who we truly are being presented before the Lord and him being pleased with it.

The second thing that is removed is all the fat. Fat in scripture speaks of the best parts of something. Here is an example:

Gen 45:18 Take your father and your households, and come to me, and I will give you the good of the land of Egypt, and you will eat the fat of the land.’

This fat is dealt with the same way as the final thing removed.

and the two kidneys,

Kidneys are the deepest organs in the body. They represent our inner self, who we truly are. The kidneys, along with the fat, are consumed on the altar of burnt offering within the camp of the Lord. The heart is not removed because it is dealt with in the blood which it pumps. Thus we see that who we truly are, spoken of as blood, fat, and kidneys, is presented wholly before the Lord. This takes place before the final part of the sacrifice, which deals with the following:

The bull’s skin, all its flesh, with its head, and with its legs, its innards, and its dung, even the whole bull shall he carry forth outside the camp to a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn it on wood with fire. Where the ashes are poured out it shall be burned.

What a revelation! The flesh, which includes inner and outer parts, is the part where sin is dealt with. Notice though that even though the blood, kidneys and fat have been removed already, the WHOLE bull is still spoken of as being carried outside the camp to be burned. Does any of this sound familiar?

1Co 5:5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Rom 7:17,18, 25 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good. So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, the sin’s law.

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.”

Rev 14:19,20 The messenger thrust his sickle into the land, and gathered the grapes of the land, and threw them into the great winepress of the wrath of the Mighty One The winepress was trampled outside of the city, and blood came out from the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, as far as one thousand six hundred stadia.

1Co 3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss. However he himself will be delivered, but as through fire.

While these are speaking of slightly different things, they do have a commonality:

The chaff is part of the wheat, but not the wheat itself. The wineskin is part of the grape, but not the grape itself. The work of man is part of the man, but not the man himself. The flesh is part of man, but not the man himself. These verses more clearly define to me exactly what it is that is burned up by fire.

God is after the blood, fat, kidneys, heart, wheat, juice of the grape, the spirit, all different ways of saying he is after who we truly are. Every part of man, spoken of as the flesh, chaff, wineskin which is not of God is done away with, destroyed.

This has already been accomplished by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Now as we each live our lives, that which has been finished is being revealed in us.

Time for a break, will continue later...

gregoryfl
05-03-2009, 08:26 AM
On second thought, I won't. This is yet another dead thread. :lol: I guess I will stick to eschatology.:pop2:

joel
05-03-2009, 12:03 PM
Why stop the thread? It is a very important subject, and one that causes a deeper reflection before responding. Don't give up on it so soon.

Joel

joel
05-03-2009, 07:13 PM
It is helpful realize that there is a difference between sin, sins, and trespass.

Have you also considered that there is also offense which is yet another distinction?

Joel

gregoryfl
05-03-2009, 09:22 PM
It is helpful realize that there is a difference between sin, sins, and trespass.

Have you also considered that there is also offense which is yet another distinction?

Joel

I have not considered that, no. The articles I wrote were based on the law of sin and trespass offerings, and also Paul's statement that we were dead in trespasses and sins.

What is it distinctively about offenses that you see concerning this?

Ron

And as far as me not continuing on, I did not mean to convey that I was stopping the thread, but merely not adding more to it. I know that message boards usually have a particular core interest, each their own. From my observations it appears that, apart from the obvious discussion of the Bible Wheel, the core interest on this board is eschatology. In looking at those threads which have pages and pages, predominantly it is those threads having to do with that subject. I know this may sound weird, but for me to post something and not get any discussion going on it is similar in feeling to being in the presence of a group of people, and bringing up a subject which nobody comments on. In other words, I don't just share things to merely see myself type something, but I desire discussion, like one would in person. So, I was just saying that rather than continue trying to put other topics on this board, maybe I should just stick to the core interest of this board, and speak about eschatology.

joel
05-04-2009, 04:55 AM
I fully understand, Ron, and agree with your assessment that much discussed on this board concerns "end times", "last days".

In addition, of course, the technical details of the Wheel are of great interest.

A Biblical Studies issue does not seem to have such appeal. The input is limited which seems to indicate a lack of interest in that particular subject. But, of course, we have no way of knowing how many are actually viewing and not participating, but, who are benefiting just the same.

As to the subject of sin, at first glace, sin, trespass, trespasses, offenses......all seem to describe the same thing. When you look closer at the words, and distinguish the differences, new light comes forth.

In the Greek, the nouns for sin are "hamartia", "hamartema", whereas the verb is "hamartano" (Strong's 266, 265, 264). The primary meaning of the word is to "miss", or, to be without a "share in". It comes from a base word "meros" which is a part, a part due, or assigned to one.

When we hear "sin" we think it is "evil" (which it very well may be.....) but, the context may be more suitable to a "missing", or, "a missing out of" (a loss). If you aim the arrow at the bulls-eye and fail to hit it, you sin. Which helps us understand that when you try for God's righteous standard and fail to hit it, you sin by failing.

"Hamartano" (Strong's #264) is also shown as "trespass" in KJV, whereas, "paraptoma" (Strong's 3900) is also shown as "trespass" in some cases which causes confusion. The noun "paraptoma" is a "beside-fall" rather than a "miss". It comes from a word "parapipto" (Strong's 3895) which is to "slip aside" or "fall aside". The words have a more personal connection in that they imply a relationship........i.e.....walking down the path with someone and they fall aside.......you are now walking alone.

A third word, "parabasis" (Strong's #3847) is also translated in KJV as "trespasses". It is more specifically a "side-stepping" of the law. It describes why the law was added.......so that there would be more side-steps! (Gal. 3:19).

Joel

gregoryfl
05-04-2009, 01:10 PM
Thanks Joel.

What i really got out of this study more than anything is a new appreciation for the way in which Jesus dealt, not only with what we do, but also with who we are, and how that is pictured in those various sacrifices. I especially have a new appreciation with what I have heard Richard and others say who lean toward annihilation as the final state of those who do not believe, in that the Bible does speak about the wicked being destroyed, or burned up, cut off, etc. Having seen the sin and trespass offering, the specifics of it, I now see even more clearly what I have been trying to share before, which is the fact that when scripture speaks of the wicked being burned up, it is actually speaking about that part of man which is flesh, expressed in his wicked actions and thoughts, not the man himself. Truly all have been redeemed, and in time will see that for themselves.

Ron

joel
05-04-2009, 03:39 PM
Thanks Joel.

What i really got out of this study more than anything is a new appreciation for the way in which Jesus dealt, not only with what we do, but also with who we are, and how that is pictured in those various sacrifices. I especially have a new appreciation with what I have heard Richard and others say who lean toward annihilation as the final state of those who do not believe, in that the Bible does speak about the wicked being destroyed, or burned up, cut off, etc. Having seen the sin and trespass offering, the specifics of it, I now see even more clearly what I have been trying to share before, which is the fact that when scripture speaks of the wicked being burned up, it is actually speaking about that part of man which is flesh, expressed in his wicked actions and thoughts, not the man himself. Truly all have been redeemed, and in time will see that for themselves.

Ron

Very meaningful. Thanks for your insight. Joel

Rose
05-04-2009, 05:50 PM
Thanks Joel.

What i really got out of this study more than anything is a new appreciation for the way in which Jesus dealt, not only with what we do, but also with who we are, and how that is pictured in those various sacrifices. I especially have a new appreciation with what I have heard Richard and others say who lean toward annihilation as the final state of those who do not believe, in that the Bible does speak about the wicked being destroyed, or burned up, cut off, etc. Having seen the sin and trespass offering, the specifics of it, I now see even more clearly what I have been trying to share before, which is the fact that when scripture speaks of the wicked being burned up, it is actually speaking about that part of man which is flesh, expressed in his wicked actions and thoughts, not the man himself. Truly all have been redeemed, and in time will see that for themselves.

Ron

Hi Ron

Instead of annihilation, I lean toward the ultimate salvation of all....when after this life all are able to see clearly the light of truth and enter in through the gates to partake of the living water.

It is hard in this life to see through the clouds of sin and all the other obstacles that block our vision of the truth, but when this fleshly body is shed I can't imagine anyone not receiving Gods offer for ALL who are thirsty to come and partake of the water of life freely.
Rev. 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God Bless

Rose

gregoryfl
05-04-2009, 06:05 PM
Thank you Rose,

I knew that you saw the salvation of all, as your other posts so amply demonstrate. Perhaps your husband has come to see the same, of that I am not sure. As I remember from previous posts, he was looking into the possibility of it, but was still leaning toward the total annihilation of the wicked as a more consistent statement, from what I gathered of his posts.

It is for those who are still considering the issues herein that I am presenting what I see as ample empirical evidence of how those things which may be hard to fit together actually do.

Ron