The 1st to the 4th Seals of Revelation [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

CWH

04-29-2009, 08:51 PM

Hi,

In order to get some inspirations, I would like to present the 1st to the 4th seals of Revelation (Chapter 6) and its interpretations based on what was mentioned in BibleWheel and my own modern (futurist) interpretations. The 1st to the 4th seals are more mysterious and difficult and are subjected to many interpretations whereas the 5th to the 7th seals will not be discussed here as they are considered more straightforward (except for seal 7 which is very complex). The keywords to its modern interpretations are highlighted for the 1st to the 4th seals. To start, let's look at what others comment about the 4 living creatures from a website :
http://www.lynellen.com/write/rev4.html
Excerpts:

Perhaps the lion living creature is still the first creature mentioned, and thus related to the first seal. This would relate the symbolism of royalty attached to the lion to the symbolism of the white horse being the conquering world leader, the antiChrist. This could be further supported the fact that the antiChrist is a persecutor, and persecutors were described as lions in Psalm 22:13. The world empire established by Satan is described as a lion in Daniel 7:1- 4. The Devil himself is symbolized as a roaring lion in I Peter 5:8, and the antiChrist is also symbolized as a lion in Revelation 13:2.
The calf would correspond to the second seal and the red horse. This connects two different blood symbols: the red horse of war and wanton bloodshed, and the sacrificial, redeeming blood of the calf or bull of the sin offering. The bull is also the symbol of evil men (Psalm 22:12) and the symbol of mighty men ( Psalm 69:30), both of which relate to the judgement of peace being taken from the earth and men slaying one another. Finally, the bull could be figurative of the Lord's sacrifice (Isaiah 34:6,7).
The living creature like a man is connected to the black horse's judgement of the third seal. Of all God's creations, only man has intelligence for agriculture and a market economy. In the third seal judgement, these two gifts are useless for there is a severe famine and the economy is suffering from extreme inflation.
Lastly, the eagle corresponds to the fourth seal which brings the pale horse of death and hades. There is an obvious correlation between death and the carrion bird of prey. But death and hades are given only limited power, leaving room for God to care for His own, just as He did with eagle's wings in Exodus 19:4 and Revelation 12:14.

Interpretation of the 1st to 4th seals of Revelation 6 from Biblewheel:
First Seal ~ White Horse conquering
Matt 24:5 ~ False Christs

Second Seal ~ War
Matt 24:6-7 ~ Wars and rumors of wars

Third Seal ~ Famine
Matt 24:7 ~ And there shall be famines

Fourth Seal ~ Death
Matt 24:7 ~ and pestilences

My modern interpretations of the 1st to the 4th seals of Revelation 6

1st Living Creature - the lion.
1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
My interpretations:
the lion: Many colonial powers' emblems, coat of arms, flags, have the pictures of lion. National animal symbols of Britain and Netherlands are the lion. Lion symbolizes power and royalty. PS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbol
Come : hinting Commonwealth of Nations (association of former British colonies)? French Community (association of former French colonies)?
white : White men (European) colonial powers.
bow : Bow is used to shoot arrows therefore bow without arrows is suggestive of modern day rifle with bullets (i.e. arrows) kept in the magazine attached to the rifle and therefore unnoticeable.
crown : suggests leading colonial administrative power such as the British Crown which administered the British Empire.
PS http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/crowned-lion.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/british-overseas-territories
conqueror : suggests major military power. Britain was a leading colonial naval power.
conquest : colonization? victories in colonizing the nations?

2nd Living Creatures - the ox.
*3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
My interpretations:
the ox: China turned communist in 1949 which is the year of the ox (according to Chinese zodiac). Ox symbolizes strength. Many communist and former communist nations have the ox, buffalo or bovine animals as their national symbols:
Vietnam - water buffalo
Cambodia - the kouprey
Moldova - the auroch
Poland and Belarus - the Wisent (bison)
PS : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_(zodiac)
Come : hinting Communism
red : refers to the Reds i.e. Communist Russia and China
power : suggest powerful military might
men slay each other : suggests civil war or war among own people e.g. Communist Chinese with Nationalist Chinese, North Korean with South Korean, North Vietnamese with South Vietnamese, Khmer Rouge killing own Cambodians, Russian Revolution etc.
large sword : suggests large "lance-shape" killing machine such as nuclear missile? Russia spied on US to get nuclear bomb technology and passed it to China.

3rd Living creature - face of a Man.
*5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
My interpretations:
[B]face of man : suggests man-made events. Man symbolizes intelligence, knowledge, technology.
Come : hinting Commodities? Commerce? Common Market i.e. the European Economic Community?
black : suggests black stem rust of wheat (Puccinia Graminis) PS : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_rust
scales : suggests famine, rationing, trading
wheat : concerning wheat. Current man-made genetically modified wheat resulted in very resistant strain of black stem rust such as ug99 which will cause major world wheat failure. Since wheat is a highly demanded food crop compared to barley, its inflationary price is 3 times that of barley.
wages : means inflation; may also suggests present financial crisis
barley : concerning barley. Current man-made genetically modified barley resulted in very resistant strain of black stem rust such as ug99 which will cause major world barley failure.
oil and wine : black stem rust (P. graminis) is deadly to wheat and barley thus causing major crop failures. It does not damage olive trees and grape vines at all and thus does not affect the production of olive oil and wine. Olive oil and wine is the equivalent of modern day petroleum and ethanol.
Note** What the verses mean is that the coming black stem rust will seriously affect the world's production of wheat and barley thus causing high inflation of both crops. However, it does not affect much the production or price of oil (petroleum) and ethanol. Note also that global warming (which is man-made) may help contribute to the spread and development of the black stem rust (black may also mean fossil-fuel burning which produces black carbon).

4th Living Creature - the eagle.
*7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
My interpretations:
the eagle : symbolizes carrion flesh i.e. death at massive proportions. Many nations have eagle as their national emblems, flags, seals; notably USA, USSR, Germany, France etc. Not sure if these nations contributed to the wars, famine, plague etc. PS : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbol
Come : hinting Combat? Communicable diseases?
pale : suggests death. May also suggests a pale smoggy world due to massive air pollution due to global warming, fossil-fuel burning, volcanic eruptions, forest fires etc. These are contributing factors to the famines and plagues.
Death and Hades : suggest terrible massive deaths.
kill by sword, famine, plague and by the wild beast : suggests horrible unprecedented disasters due to wars, famine, diseases and ?wild beasts or by means of wild beasts as vectors in the spread of diseases?
Note* the 4th seal is the worst of all the other 3 seals as it contains all the elements of the other 3 seals. The beginning of the 4th seal is the beginning of birth pangs (i.e. sorrows). Note also that opportunistic false prophets will increase when people realize that the end of the world is imminent. Serious warnings about false prophets are mentioned 4 times in Matthew 24.
I would also like to stress that the famine of the 4th seal is caused by drought and is different from the famine in the 3rd seal which is caused by a fungus. The war in the 4th seal is different from the wars in the 1st or 2nd seals. The war could be a war among religions or wars due to food or water shortages. All these are caused by climate change due to global warming. Something tells me it doesn't make sense for the 4th seal to be repeating the events of seal 1, 2, and 3 unless the events are different.

Many Blessings.

Rose

04-30-2009, 10:48 PM

Hi Cheow,

I will start with the 1st Seal, listing the unique qualities it possesses that set it apart from the other 3 Seals.
Rev. 6:1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise (phone) of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
1.) Only after the 1st Seal is opened does it mention a voice like the sound of thunder, which is always associated with Gods voice.

2.) All aspects of the rider of the White horse are positive.

3.) The "bow" that he holds in his hand is found only once in the N.T. and is the same Greek word that the Septuagint translates as "Covenant Bow" when referring to the rainbow that was Gods sign of His promise.
Gen. 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

4.) The Greek word for the crown that is given the rider of the White horse is the same word "stephano" that is used in reference to the crown of thorns that was given Jesus.
John 19:2 And the soldiers platted a crown [stephanos] of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,

All these qualities I have listed, (including the fact that the first Cherubim who announced the opening of the Seal is the one with the face of a lion) point towards the White horseman being none other than Christ Himself.

If we start with the symbolism of the 1st Cherubim "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" announcing the 1st horse (who is White of course) whose horseman holds the "Covenant bow" in his hand, while wearing a "Crown of thorns" and going forth to conquer (sin)....it sure makes me think of Christ.

God Bless

Rose

CWH

05-01-2009, 05:44 AM

Hi Rose,

Before we start discussing about the 1st seal, we need to have some clear understanding and agreements:
1. I based my interpretation on futurist ideas and events from AD 1500 onwards; I understand you based on biblical events and events in the 1st century AD. Let's respect each other's views.
2. The author of Revelation saw the seals in visions in around AD 70 and have no knowledge about modern equipments and events. He will try to describe events in the visions based on his understanding and vocabulary of his time e.g. a airplane to a primitive person could be described as a silver bird. We need to put ourselves in the shoes of the author of Revelation.
3. Your viewpoints are based on biblical events and verse associations whereas my viewpoints are based on historical and modern events and words associations.
4. All events from seal 1 to 7 of Revelation always described events with large loss of lives.
5. Try to take the keywords in the seals as literally as possible.
6. There is no right or wrong, we are here to get some inspirations to the interpretation and understanding of the Scriptures.

The white horseman of Revelation 6 is not Christ. The white horseman in Revelation 19 is Christ. Let's compare:
I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.

White horse rider of Revelation 6:
1. Held a bow
2. Given a crown
3. Conqueror bent on conquest

Whitehorse rider of Revelation 19:
1. Did not held a bow but have a sharp sword from his mouth
2. Has many crowns on his head
3. Judges and make wars
4. Named Faithful and True
5. Strike down nations
7. Eyes like blazing fire
8. Dressed in robe dipped in blood, name is word of God
9. Name no one knows but himself

With so much difference, does it looks like the white horseman of Revelation 6 is the same as the white horseman of Revelation 19? I would like to quote one website:
http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/99991.qna/category/nt/page/questions/site/iiim

"The context of Revelation does not seem to suggest that the white horseman is either antichrist or Jesus. Rather, the context of the horsemen seems to indicate that each one represents a typical form of covenant judgment."

This goes to show that there are many interpretations of the white horseman of Revelation 6 with none of them seems convincing. Mine is just an alternative interpretation which to most will seemed equally unconvincing no matter how hard I try; it's difficult to change people's mindset.

http://www.eurekacouncil.com.au/5-Australia-History/images/543px-Light_horse_walers.jpg

Does the picture above picture looks like a horseman carrying a bow without arrows to one living in the 1st century when in fact he is carrying a rifle strapped over his back. The horseman with a rifle immediately reminds me of a conquistador. Conquistador means conqueror in Spanish and the Spanish conquistadors eventually conquered Mexico and many parts of South America (bent on conquests). It goes the same with all the colonial powers of that time e.g. Britain, France, Netherlands as they struggle and compete to colonize all nations of the world (conqueror bent on conquest). As Britain was the greatest colonial power of that time controlling a quarter of the world, the words "conqueror bent on conquering" therefore refers to Great Britain. The first living creature who is in charge of the 1st seal is represented by the lion. Lion is a symbol of royalty and power and is the emblem of the Coat of Arms and the British Crown which administered all the British colonies.

The "Come!" may be clue to its interpretation. Any word or pronunciation starting with "Com" is clue to its interpretation and it is applicable to any of the European colonist language; be it in Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish, French or English. It therefore may mean Commonwealth of Nations or the French Community (Communaute Francais).

The 7 seals of Revelation are not about good or bad but about events in the modern world starting from the colonisation era of AD 1500 onwards to the future that caused much hardship and loss of lives.

All aspects of the rider of the White horse are positive? Not really so; are killings and deaths, ambitions of conquests positive?
My view of the events of the 1st seal of Revelation is the European colonial powers colonizing nations during the 15th century till the 20th century. Colonization is both good and bad. Good because it helps to spread Christianity, developed and modernized the colonies. Bad because it stripped the natives of their land, properties, way of life, their rights and subjugate them under the colonial masters. Many lives were lost fighting for the land not only among the colonists and the natives but also between colonial powers e.g. wars not only with Red Indians, but also wars between British, Spaniard and French colonial powers during much of American history. The colonial era ended with the end of World War 2 with much loss of lives (WW2 can be considered as a major war among the Allied and Axis colonial powers of that time).Then comes wars of independence as the natives of several nations fight with their colonial masters for independence such as France and Algeria in 1954 etc. All these resulted in tremendous loss of lives.

Many Blessings.

Richard Amiel McGough

05-01-2009, 09:23 AM

2. The author of Revelation saw the seals in visions in around AD 70 and have no knowledge about modern equipments and events. He will try to describe events in the visions based on his understanding and vocabulary of his time e.g. a airplane to a primitive person could be described as a silver bird. We need to put ourselves in the shoes of the author of Revelation.

Hi Cheow,

In my understanding, the "author of Revelation" is God Himself. It seems like you are saying that the Book of Revelation is not the Word of God, but rather, the very flawed "word of John" who used his very limited human knowledge in a weak attempt to describe things that he did not understand. Do you not believe that the specific words of the Bible are the very words that God inspired?

Many blessings,

Richard

Rose

05-01-2009, 09:31 AM

CWH

05-01-2009, 11:46 AM

Hi Richard,

Of course, I believe the Book of Revelation is God-inspired. What I mean is that John the author of Revelation needs to use simple terms so that the readers will understand. Even if John were to understand what a rifle is through divine means and he wrote the word "rifle", nobody living before the 16th century would understand him. It would be more confusing if he were to describe rifle as "a long rod that shoot small arrows". Therefore, the simplest term without causing confusion is to write a "bow". Such simple terms are used throughout the Bible such as "evil spirit" that caused illness which we know in modern time as germs; evil = bad, spirit = unseen being.

Hi Rose,

I have read several commentaries and they gave different views in regards to the white horseman of Revelation. Richard for one will say that the white horseman of Revelation is the False prophets:

First Seal ~ White Horse conquering
Matt 24:5 ~ False Christs

Second Seal ~ War
Matt 24:6-7 ~ Wars and rumors of wars

Third Seal ~ Famine
Matt 24:7 ~ And there shall be famines

Fourth Seal ~ Death
Matt 24:7 ~ and pestilences

Fifth Seal ~ Martyrs
Matt 24:9 ~ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you

Sixth Seal ~ Judgment on Jerusalem begins
Matt 24:15 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation ...

Furthermore, to put Christ as the horseman conquering sin in the 1st seal disrupts the sequence of the 1st seal to the 6th seal as described by Richard. It would be more appropriate to put Christ as the horseman conquering sin in the 6th seal.

Many Blessings and peace.:)

Rose

05-01-2009, 02:19 PM

Hi Rose,

I have read several commentaries and they gave different views in regards to the white horseman of Revelation. Richard for one will say that the white horseman of Revelation is the False prophets:

First Seal ~ White Horse conquering
Matt 24:5 ~ False Christs

Second Seal ~ War
Matt 24:6-7 ~ Wars and rumors of wars

Third Seal ~ Famine
Matt 24:7 ~ And there shall be famines

Fourth Seal ~ Death
Matt 24:7 ~ and pestilences

Fifth Seal ~ Martyrs
Matt 24:9 ~ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you

Sixth Seal ~ Judgment on Jerusalem begins
Matt 24:15 ~ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation ...

Furthermore, to put Christ as the horseman conquering sin in the 1st seal disrupts the sequence of the 1st seal to the 6th seal as described by Richard. It would be more appropriate to put Christ as the horseman conquering sin in the 6th seal.

Many Blessings and peace.:)

All I'm doing is pointing out what's there.....I know it doesn't seem to fit with the sequence of connections in the Olivet Discourse (which I also see as a very significant), but that doesn't make it any less valid! :)

God Bless

Rose

TheForgiven

05-01-2009, 08:05 PM

Greetings everyone. Interesting discussion you guys have going on.

In the past, I too noticed that the Olivet Discourse matched the seven seals. I think we all agree on the meaning of seals 2 - 7. It's the first seal, number 1, that tends to be debated. I must admit that I'm torn between the two ideas that you two have presented.

Like brother Cheowee, I ordinarily believe that the white horse may have meant to be understood as a false Messiah, or false prophet. At the same time, I see a strong connection with sister Rose's brilliant comparison of the word "crown" or "bow".

What helps substantiate her presentation is the fact that Revelation is primarily about Christ, and his battle against the enemies; specifically, the Harlot at the Beast. If we examine the seven seals closely, who is it that sends the horses? It's the Messiah (Jesus) because He was found worthy to open the scrolls. Thus, I believe Rose may be correct. For it's He who is the first seal to go out and conquer, and the following horses are those who obey His commands; indirectly of course.

I think I'll position myself on the side-lines for this discussion. I do not have enough information to go either way. :lol:

Keep it up guys. This is going pretty good.

Joseph:thumb:

CWH

05-01-2009, 09:47 PM

Hi Joseph,

Yes, I agree with what Richard summarized in seal 2 to seal 6 of Revelation but not some of the details. As for seal one as False prophet, I do not agree. I may agree if the False prophet was teaching false ideas about atheism or evolution.

I would like to point out that the white horseman in Revelation 19 is Christ conquering sin (no doubt about it) and it is rightly put in the 7th seal. It doesn't seems right to have 2 seals, the 1st and the 7th seal, talking about the same event. I do understand that the 7th seal also talk about other things beside Christ conquering sin. Therefore, seal 1 of Revelation cannot be talking about Christ conquering sin.

I would like to point my suspicion about the rider and the horse. This is my deduction: The rider and horse must work together: the rider to direct where he wants the horse to go and the horse to bring the rider to his destination. The rider must take good care of the horse to ensure that the horse is fit to work and not the other way round. The rider and horse depend on each other to ensure the task is done. This brings to mind that the rider and horse represent a system. The rider must manage the system well in order for it to work. The rider and horse should not be taken as individual entity but as a whole entity. In other words, the rider in seal 1 cannot be an individual person and therefore cannot be Christ, or anti-christ or false prophet neither can the horse be an individual thing. A whole entity would include things like Famine, Wars, Death etc.

I am still trying to find out what does the horse represents....a system? an organization?

Many Blessings:).

Rose

05-02-2009, 09:25 AM

TheForgiven

05-02-2009, 02:18 PM

I noticed something that may prove sister Rose's connection. Let's review the passage and its comparison.

Revelation 6:

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Here we see an image of a rider who was given a Crown, and a Bow to go out and conquering. A passage from the Gospels comes to mind:

Matthew 10:

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

It sounds as though that this rider on the white horse was given a crown to divide and conquer. Jesus states that he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword; not a literal sword, but a division. This division would result in the separation of God's children, from the children of Satan. Families would be divided because of their religious beliefs.

Now historically speaking, a king, or nation, can easily defeat another nation if a division can be created. As Jesus states, "No house divided against itself can stand..." This comes to mind.

Thus, I wonder if what sister Rose is proposing may be correct. At the same time, I still cannot resist the thought that the rider on the white horse is the false Messiah. At the same time, why would a false Messiah be given power and authority to divide and conquer? Just doesn't seem to fit what John was shown. If anything, this would mean that if the rider on the white horse is a false Messiah, that authority could not have come from heaven, especially considering Jesus has all authority on heaven and on earth.

Another thought is that Revelation begins with the conquering Christ who set off to defeat the nations and rule them with a rod of Iron. The end of Revelation shows a rider on a white horse with many crowns. So Christ starts off with a small crown, and ends with many crowns.

Revelation 16:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Therefore, I think sister Rose might be correct. But as of yet, I'm still uncertain.

Any thoughts?

Joseph

Rose

05-02-2009, 07:19 PM

I noticed something that may prove sister Rose's connection. Let's review the passage and its comparison.

Here we see an image of a rider who was given a Crown, and a Bow to go out and conquering. A passage from the Gospels comes to mind:

It sounds as though that this rider on the white horse was given a crown to divide and conquer. Jesus states that he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword; not a literal sword, but a division. This division would result in the separation of God's children, from the children of Satan. Families would be divided because of their religious beliefs.

Now historically speaking, a king, or nation, can easily defeat another nation if a division can be created. As Jesus states, "No house divided against itself can stand..." This comes to mind.

Thus, I wonder if what sister Rose is proposing may be correct. At the same time, I still cannot resist the thought that the rider on the white horse is the false Messiah. At the same time, why would a false Messiah be given power and authority to divide and conquer? Just doesn't seem to fit what John was shown. If anything, this would mean that if the rider on the white horse is a false Messiah, that authority could not have come from heaven, especially considering Jesus has all authority on heaven and on earth.

Another thought is that Revelation begins with the conquering Christ who set off to defeat the nations and rule them with a rod of Iron. The end of Revelation shows a rider on a white horse with many crowns. So Christ starts off with a small crown, and ends with many crowns.

Therefore, I think sister Rose might be correct. But as of yet, I'm still uncertain.

Any thoughts?

Joseph

Very good observations Joe, :thumb:

I too am ambiguous about the identity of the 1st horseman, because on the one hand if the identity is a false christ it fits well with the Olivet Discourse sequence, but on the other hand the more I think about the unique qualities the 1st horseman possesses the more I feel he is Christ Himself. Especially with the symbolic meanings of the "Bow" and the "Crown". And as you said Joe, why would power be given to a false christ to conquer....besides that we are living witnesses that the Word of God did go forth into all the world conquering sin :).

God Bless

Rose

gregoryfl

05-02-2009, 08:12 PM

What if the conquering of the one on the white horse is speaking about conquering in the sense of deceiving, which is what the false Christ's do. The same question you are asking about with regard to the why of the one on the white horse being able to conquer, can also be asked as to why it is given to the false Christ's to deceive. The answer I believe is revealed in the working of the man of sin. Notice the role God plays in this, which I have highlighted:

2Th 2:8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming;
2Th 2:9 even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie;
2Th 2:12 that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Ron

CWH

05-03-2009, 12:02 AM

I see the color of the horse as being the significant factor in the symbolic unit of horse and rider....not the horse itself.

1.) White symbolizes purity

2.) Red symbolizes the shedding of blood

3.) Black symbolizes starvation

4.) Pale symbolizes death

God Bless

Rose

Hi Rose,

I think Horse means times of trouble. Horses have always been used in wars and war is time of trouble. The riders are simply the drivers of the times of trouble, in other words, the causes of the troubled times. Once the meaning of horse is known, we will be able to answer the meaning of the horses that pulled the chariots in Zechariah 6. Note also that chariots were also used in wars. Note also the coincidence of Zechariah 6 and Revelation 6. I will discuss this in another thread using your meaning of the colors of the horses. Of course, the colors of horses are important in the clues to the meaning of the seals. Your meaning of the colors of the horses are too obvious but not exactly wrong, there are more meanings...

I have another interpretation to the 1st seal which may compromise your stand and my stand and yet maintain the sequence of the Olivet Discourse. The 1st seal stands for Christianity:
Rev. 6:1-2 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Based on your interpretations:
white means purity
bow means God's word of promise
crown means Christ
Note**crown may also mean the Roman Catholic Church which was the authoritative Church of Christianity and certainly was the driver in the spread of Christianity.

"conqueror bent on conquest" to me means the spread of Christianity throughout the world. Christianity was spread throughout the world through wars especially wars in the Middle Ages, conquests of regions outside the Roman Empire such as Eastern Europe, Crusades, missionaries, colonization of nations. All these initiatives (which are the drivers in the spread of Christianity) used in the spread of Christianity throughout the world brought about hardships and deaths to all involved including the natives. Note also all these were initiated from the powers of Europe (i.e. European white men).

I am afraid the 1st seal is not False Prophet or anti-christ. My interpretation of the 1st seal is the spread of Christianity through colonization. Colonization was the best and fastest way to spread the word of God throughout the world. Many Churches were built in the colonies; many natives especially those in South and Middle America were forced to be Christians; missionaries were allowed to preach the word of God unheeded in the colonies. Colonization not only brought along Christianity, progress, technology, modernization but also diseases, wars, hardships and sufferings.

On 2nd thought, perhaps with the spread of Christianity worldwide leads to increase in False prophets and false teachings with their different Christian sects and cults.

Peace and many blessings.:)

Rose

05-03-2009, 08:13 AM

Hi Rose,

I think Horse means times of trouble. Horses have always been used in wars and war is time of trouble. The riders are simply the drivers of the times of trouble, in other words, the causes of the troubled times. Once the meaning of horse is known, we will be able to answer the meaning of the horses that pulled the chariots in Zechariah 6. Note also that chariots were also used in wars. Note also the coincidence of Zechariah 6 and Revelation 6. I will discuss this in another thread using your meaning of the colors of the horses. Of course, the colors of horses are important in the clues to the meaning of the seals. Your meaning of the colors of the horses are too obvious but not exactly wrong, there are more meanings...

I have another interpretation to the 1st seal which may compromise your stand and my stand and yet maintain the sequence of the Olivet Discourse. The 1st seal stands for Christianity:
Rev. 6:1-2 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Based on your interpretations:
white means purity
bow means God's word of promise
crown means Christ
Note**crown may also mean the Roman Catholic Church which was the authoritative Church of Christianity and certainly was the driver in the spread of Christianity.

"conqueror bent on conquest" to me means the spread of Christianity throughout the world. Christianity was spread throughout the world through wars especially wars in the Middle Ages, conquests of regions outside the Roman Empire such as Eastern Europe, Crusades, missionaries, colonization of nations. All these initiatives (which are the drivers in the spread of Christianity) used in the spread of Christianity throughout the world brought about hardships and deaths to all involved including the natives. Note also all these were initiated from the powers of Europe (i.e. European white men).

I am afraid the 1st seal is not False Prophet or anti-christ. My interpretation of the 1st seal is the spread of Christianity through colonization. Colonization was the best and fastest way to spread the word of God throughout the world. Many Churches were built in the colonies; many natives especially those in South and Middle America were forced to be Christians; missionaries were allowed to preach the word of God unheeded in the colonies. Colonization not only brought along Christianity, progress, technology, modernization but also diseases, wars, hardships and sufferings.

On 2nd thought, perhaps with the spread of Christianity worldwide leads to increase in False prophets and false teachings with their different Christian sects and cults.

Peace and many blessings.:)

Hi Cheow,

That's what I was saying in my last post. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, and those who follow Him are Christians, the white horse symbolizes Christians going forth into the world to conquer sin.

You brought out a good point about peoples interpretation of Christianity leading to false teachings-hence False prophets, just think of all the horrible things that have been done in the name of Christ throughout history....such as the Crusades. :eek:

So I think what we have in the white horse and horseman is indeed a representation of Christ and of the spread of the Word of God, with all the good and bad that follows.

God Bless

Rose

Brother Les

05-05-2009, 12:35 PM

Just throwing this out there. If we see Christ as the first rider of the white horse, and that the horse is connected to the rider, it would show that Christ came back in Judgement the same way that He 'left'... ie, on a swift white cloud. I understand that the 'bow' that the rider has may be a (the battle bow) of God. with Noah, God took His (battle) bow and hung it in the sky for all to see that God would not destroy 'the earth' by a flood anymore. But at the 'End of The Age' (Mosaic) God took down His (battle) bow and gave it to His Son to use it to go out and conquer (Judge). When Jesus was done with His Judgments (scrolls, woes, trumpets, horses, ect) then He put His Fathers (battle) Bow in the Heavenlies once more.

what do you think?

Brother Les

TheForgiven

05-05-2009, 02:24 PM

So I think what we have in the white horse and horseman is indeed a representation of Christ and of the spread of the Word of God, with all the good and bad that follows.

God Bless

Rose

I'm beginning to believe you are right sister Rose. What does brother Richard think? I haven't seen him in a while. :lol: Am I going to have to make another phone call???? :D

Get in here bro! It's time to come out and play brother Richard. Or are you still grounded? :p

Brother LES seems to bring up a good point about God's battle "bow". This would seem to fit what sister Rose was pointing out. Perhaps my idea of the rider on the white horse is not the false Messiah, but a picture of Jesus beginning His battle over the nations, beginning with Israel of the flesh, and moving on towards the sea. His ultimate goal is to dry up the seas and make all the lands serve and exist as one.

Joe

Brother Les

05-11-2009, 02:09 PM

The plagues that were brought on 'Egypt', at the 'begining' of the Mosaic Age... were also brought on 'Israel' (Egypt/Sodom?) at the 'End of The (Mosaic) Age.

Brother Les

oneway

05-12-2009, 08:09 AM

Hello,new to the forum..interesting thread you have here,I will share with you other verses in the bible that mention these 4 seals.

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

four heads ruling and having dominion..the spot of that leopard is not our spot,I recommend taking a look at the song of Moses

Zechariah 1:18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.

horns-symbolic of power

Zechariah 1:19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

white horse=religion dynasty--the world is already ripe to worship the ac,look how they worship BHO and rock stars and actors and look at organizations like lucis trust and "one faith of God the united wisdom of one faith".com and humanism etc...This is NOT the true Christ

red horse=politics--war caused by politics,communism,socialism paveing the way for one world government..communism does away with God altogether there is no peace with out God physical or spiritual..everyday on the news .

black horse--economics--Nowadays I feel I do not have to elaborate on this one especially since we are in a global economic crisis and when one borrows 100,000 to purchase a small home by the time they get it payed for it ends up costing 400,000.USURY .NOTICE: Hurt not the oil and the wine,we will be fine,we will still have jobs and pay bills.

pale horse--education--(it is actually a green horse you can find it in the strong's) this rider has power over a quarter part of the earth.
The earth is 75% water and 25% dry land ..so this rider has power over the world,another part of the NWO..I have seen a lot of junk in history books including my daughter's.
Look at this so called "green movement" with global warming,my kids are being taught all of this..I could go on but I feel I made my point..re-educate the masses.

IMHO these 4 seals are the four dynasties and all you need for global dominion are the seals mentioned above and the beast of the end time is the one world political system and we are there..I will not go into the remaining seals since that would be going off topic but I will mention the 666.
666=6th seal-6th trump-6th vial
God is 777

thanks
oneway

oneway

05-12-2009, 08:41 AM

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Let's look at that word bow in the strong's--bow" - 5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow.

Also, a crown was given him,no one gives the true Christ anything because He already has it.All the riders of these 4 horses were given their power.Who gave it to them?There is always a negative part as well as a positive part of God's plan..These 4 riders are the NWO

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The One setting upon this horse is different from the one in chapter 6.
This rider is the True Messiah and the true Messiah comes after the fake

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

I am not trying to convince anybody of anything here,It is up to the individual to decide what they do and do not believe.I hope my posts on this thread have been helpful and I only wanted to share with you my point of view on the subject..thanks for listening

CWH

05-12-2009, 10:20 AM

Hi all,

Don't you all realized that the 1st seal to the 7th seal of Revelation is all about deaths; many deaths that will affect or have already affected Christians and Gentiles worldwide? Let me summarized:

1st seal - Spread of Christianity worldwide have caused many deaths due to colonization, conquests, missionaries etc.

2nd seal - Communism caused many deaths due to civil wars, revolutions, persecution of Christians and non-communists etc.

3rd seal - Starvation caused by famine due to drougt and especially stem rusrt will cause many deaths worldwide.

4th seal - Diseases (? swine flu), famine, pestilence, wars will cause many deaths.

5th seal - Martyrdom and persecution of Christians will cause many deaths worldwide.

6th seal - Natural disasters such as earthquake, falling stars (meteor, asteroid collisions with Earth?) will cause many deaths.

7th seal - The beasts and the false prophets (through deception) will cause many deaths. Final battle at Ammagedon, the Fall of "Babylon" will cause many deaths.

Therefore, its all about many deaths with the end result is that Good will triumph over Evil. And then finally, God will live with us:
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Many Blessings.

Brother Les

05-12-2009, 12:18 PM

Cheow Wee Hock

It's all about Deaths

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all,

Don't you all realized that the 1st seal to the 7th seal of Revelation is all about deaths; many deaths that will affect or have already affected Christians and Gentiles worldwide? Let me summarized:

The 'deaths' were not 'christian' 'deaths', but (non-elect) 'Israelite' 'deaths' during the Tribulation period. The 'Seals', Woes, Trumpets, ect... all happened withing a 3.5 year period.

Brother Les

CWH

06-14-2009, 02:13 PM

The 'deaths' were not 'christian' 'deaths', but (non-elect) 'Israelite' 'deaths' during the Tribulation period. The 'Seals', Woes, Trumpets, ect... all happened withing a 3.5 year period.

Brother Les

Hi Brother Les,

I agree that the deaths are mainly "non-christian" deaths, but I strongly disagree that the 7 seals, 7 woes and trumpets lasted 3.5 years. I understand that this is based on the full preterist's belief that the world ended in AD 70. I believe the 7 seals, woes and trumpets lasted 1,000 to 2,000 years or more. I wonder why God would want to accomplish so many things so fast within a 3.5 years span. Is time running out for God? God has all the time to do these; he doesn't need to rush. He is patient so that as many souls as possible could repent and be saved. So why the rush to complete everything in 3.5 years span? 2 Peter 3 says :

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The Bible is like a History Book detailing the Creation of the Earth to its End;from Genesis to Revelation. God is the Alpha and the Omega. He is the One who created the Earth and He will be the One to end the Earth. Ending the Earth does not mean totally vaporize the Earth but to create a new beginning; a new heaven and a new earth, a new World Order. "Ending the World" in AD 70 seems rather immature and without saving as many souls as possible.

Details of the History of the World seems to end after AD 100 as the Bible does not seem to record historical details of Israel or Christianity from thence. But we were wrong, Revelation 6 seems to summarize the History of the World from AD 100. This has been discussed in my thread, "The 1st to the 4th Seals of Revelation":

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

7When the Lamb opened the [B]fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Seal 1 summarizes the rise of Christianity from AD 33 after the Lord is risen to Heaven to the end of colonization era after World War 2. The spread of Christianity created a lot of sufferings from Christian persecutions, missionaries, conquests, crusades, mytyrdom, colonization, etc. The Lord said it right in Matthew 10 :34, "Think not I am here to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace but a sword."
Seal 2 summarize the rise of Communism, man's dream of Utopia, justice and equality. Communism too caused a lot of death and sufferings to the masses through revolutions, civil wars, persecutions etc. It lasted from 1900s to about 1990s and perhaps on-going as there are currently some surviving communists countries and revolutionaries.
Seal 3 summarises a world of starvation and sufferings caused by high food prices. This is brought by droughts and a black wheat stem rust fungus which will affect greatly the world's production of wheat and barley. This I believe is currently happening.
Seal 4 summarizes a future world of wars, diseases, famines and natural disasters from wild animals perhaps inclusive of insects causing pestilence and diseases (a high possibility is a very virulent swine flu). This I believe will happen a couple of years after Seal 3.
Seal 5 summarizes a world-wide Christian persecutions. This will happen a couple of years after Seal 4. Matthew 10 : 22 states, "Everyone will hate you because of me. But whoever holds out to the end will be saved."
Seal 6 talks about the Rapture and some very violent natural disasters such as earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, severe sunspots, storms etc.
Seal 7 talks about events leading to the end of the worlds which is the beginning of a new heaven and a new earth.

*Note: Nobody knows when events in seal 6 and seal 7 will happened.

Revelation 6:
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

God Blessed and Many Blessings to all.:)

CWH

06-19-2009, 09:31 AM

Hi,

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages,[b] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

I was pondering over the 3rd seal of Revelation, rather intrigued by the words "a pair of scales". But what have a pair of scales to do with famine? I understand the pair of scales has to do with scarcity of food but I believe it also has something sinister and it has something to do with justice. The legal system is always represented by a pair of scales. It suggest some" wanting in justice". It thus seems to suggest that this world famine caused by a black stem rust ug99 (Pucinnia graminis) which have a peculiar property in destroying primarily wheat and barley is further agravated by men's greed in hoarding other food grains such as rice thus forcing a world-wide inflation in food grain prices. (This happened in 2008 when price of rice suddenly shot up due to people intentionally hoarding rice to force an increase in the price of rice in Asia). This famine as stated in the 3rd seal is unique in the sense that there is inflation in food prices especially with wheat and barley, coupled with hoarding of other food grains thus forcing the hyperinflation in wheat and barley, however the price of oil and biofuel remains reasonable. Please refer to this website for a detailed explanation of "pair of scales", see excerpt:

http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/926/Four-Horsemen-Black-Horse.htm

"Pair of scales" translates the Greek word zugón, which literally means "yoke," as in a yoke of oxen or the yoke of bondage. The beam of a balance, which resembles a yoke's crossbeam, joins or couples the two pans just as a yoke joins the oxen. Just as it is better if the yoked oxen are evenly matched, so the purpose of the balance is to determine that the contents of the two pans are equal.
Today, we have little experience with pairs of scales or balances, yet until recently, they were the commonly used means of weighing substances. Perhaps we are familiar with a pair of scales from its use in a Western movie to determine the weight of a gold nugget. In addition, most of us are aware that a balance is an international symbol of justice, depicting the supposed equality of all before the law. Elements of both of these common uses appear in the third horseman.
In ancient times, the value or quantity of a thing was determined by weighing it on scales. In fact, people bought and sold items by weight or measure rather than by our currency-based system. For instance, the shekel was not originally a unit of money but of weight according to which the price and quantity of things were determined. As such, scales were common marketplace items, and God demanded they be used justly (Leviticus 19:36; Proverbs 11:1; 16:11; Amos 8:4-10; Matthew 7:2).
Interestingly, because scales are easily manipulated, they can also be a symbol of fraudulent exaction and oppression, as Hosea 12:7 illustrates: "A cunning Canaanite [or merchant, referring to Ephraim, which stands for all Israel]! Deceitful scales are in his hand; he loves to oppress." Micah concurs: "Shall I count pure those with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights? For her rich men are full of violence, her inhabitants have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth" (Micah 6:11-12).
When mentioned in terms of foodstuffs, particularly bread, scales become a symbol of scarcity because, normally, bread would be sold by the loaf without much concern for exact weight. However, during a famine when each ounce of flour was valuable, flour would be rationed by weight or measure, and neither buyer or seller would want to be cheated. Notice God's prophetic warning in Leviticus 26:26: "When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back to you your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied." The prophet Ezekiel also mentions rationing by weight as a judgment from God:
And your food which you eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day; from time to time you shall eat it. . . . Son of man, surely I will cut off the supply of bread in Jerusalem; they shall eat bread by weight and with anxiety, and shall drink water by measure and with dread. (Ezekiel 4:10, 16)
God is often depicted in the Old Testament as holding scales. For example, Hannah prays, "For the Lord is the God of knowledge; and by Him actions are weighed" (I Samuel 2:3). Solomon declares, "The Lord weighs the spirits," or the motives and attitudes of people (Proverbs 16:2). Job cries, "Let me be weighed [margin, Let Him weigh me] in a just balance, that God may know my integrity" (Job 31:6). Perhaps the best known use of the scales in this sense appears in Daniel 5:25, where God tells Belshazzar through Daniel's interpretation, "You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting."

Many blessings:)

deb

06-20-2009, 08:48 AM

So I am a little late. Can I just say...

I understand the four living creatures to be Cherubim (Ezekiel 1 and 10). The guardians of the Glory of God who first appear to prevent man from having access to the tree of life (Genesis 3:24). In my mind the number 4 (dalet) is the door. Very possibly the door to the glory of God.

What is being unsealed is the title deed to the earth (Jeremiah 32) The earth is currently held by the steward (not heir), The Prince of the Power of the air, the devil himself. It is about to be taken away by the rightful owner.

Horses represent war and spiritual warfare.

The word “behold” (hey) is revelation of spiritual realities that we normally do not witness with physical eyes.

My thoughts about the first seal.
The alaph seal, the beginning.

The door is opened and the first rider is called.
The white horse
In Zechariah I understand that the white horses are the spirit (wind) of the west.
I generally see white as symbolic of purity but also of peace, yet the rider of this horse comes to conquer. I do not see a bit in the horses mouth, but maybe that can be assumed?
The west is represented by Ephraim whose standard is the ox (Numbers 2:18).

He who sat on it
I like what Rose said of the bow, a covenant rather then a weapon. Where I differ is that I see a different covenant then she does. This one is in the rider’s possession, not in the clouds. It is far smaller (without looking at the Greek) He has the appearance of peace-maker but comes to conquer. The West is well known for treaties that attempt to control (and therefore conquer without blood. . .or arrows).

While I agree with the translation of crown, it wasn’t just the crown of thorns that was a woven crown. It is also the crown of the victor in the Olympic games. This is how I see Paul used the word.

With the breaking of the first seal by the only one worthy to do so, spiritual warfare begins with clear results on earth. The Spirit/wind of the west brings one from whom we will expect peace, but there is no peace. He conquers with treaties, without blood. The nations are so fooled by him that he is given the victors crown.

Men do not look to the glory of God but to this man, carried by the wind/spirit of the west and give him their glory (a perishable, woven crown). I suspect that is why we do not see which face of the cherubim calling his thunderous “Come” (bring-it), because all the world is foccused on this man.

That’s what I see.

Rose

06-20-2009, 10:47 AM

I think to a large extent the way we interpret the white horse and horseman, is in keeping with our understanding of Eschatology....that is to say whether or not we believe Revelation has been fulfilled.

I believe the whole of Revelation has been fulfilled, and while I believe the white horse and horseman represents Christianity and the Bow our covenant with Christ going forth to conquer sin, we know that without a True Christ there cannot be a false Christ, so the white horse and horseman both represents the True Christ and the false christs that follow.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus said many false christs would come in His name, and that these things would happen in abundance before the stones of the Temple came down marking the end of the age.
Matt. 24:1-3 'And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?'
In keeping with the continuity of the events Jesus said would happen before the end of the age, I believe that all the things Jesus said would happen before His ushering in the Kingdom of God, did happen before the stones of the Temple came down.

God bless
Rose

CWH

06-20-2009, 11:02 AM

Hi deb,

Nice to hear from you. Hope all our friends in this forum can join us....gilgal, Joe, RAM, Rose, Dave, Victor, Brother Les etc. I guess they are having a long break or perhaps still meditating on my threads and posts.:D

I agree with you that horse means war or spiritual war and white means purity. But peace? No. If the white horseman is Christ then it is not peace for the Lord has said in Matthew 10:34 " Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I have not come to bring peace but a Sword". What the Lord means is that he is here to bring Christianity and the spread of Christianity will bring about wars and sufferings. The 1st seal seems to talk about the history of the spread of Christianity from the 1st century to the 20th century with the mentions of bow and crown, and conqueror and conquests:
1) the spread of Christianity by the apostles throughout the Roman Empire
2) the spread of Christianity to Eastern Europe by the Byzantine Empire which accepted Christianity as their national religion.
3) the spread of Christianity by the Crusades
4) the spread of Christianity by conquests of Charlemagne throughout Europe
5) the spread of Christianity through colonizations of nations which was one of the goals of colonization.

All these spread of Christianity resulted in wars, sacrifices and sufferings. Colonization was an attempt to control the world done mainly by the West and you have said it right, "In Zechariah I understand that the white horses are the spirit (wind) of the west....He has the appearance of peace-maker but comes to conquer. The West is well known for treaties that attempt to control". The crown suggests victory of the colonial powers in colonizing the nations wherever they goes; same with Christianity which colonizations helped to spread it much faster throughout the world.

Care to talk about the other 3 seals? I am particularly interested in the 3rd seal, the black horseman, for I see it coming.

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Blessings to all.:)

deb

06-20-2009, 12:49 PM

My thoughts on the second seal.
The bet, battle for "the house"

The Lamb breaks the 2nd seal and the second cherubim says, 'Come'

The Red Horse
The Spirit/wind of the East. Spiritual Warfare. Edom means ‘red’ and speaks of power, anger, and war as well as anointing and redemption depending upon who is represented by red.

Numbers 2:3 puts Judah in the East. Judah’s emblem is the Lion. Salvation came through The Descendent of Judah, but the breaking of this is about Spiritual warfare and the rightful Prince of Peace, the Son of God, taking back the earth, which was given in stewardship to Adam who lost it to the serpent.

I often wonder if it wasn’t the spirit/wind of the East that Peter saw (he 'saw' the wind, translated from the same word as spirit, when he became afraid and was rebuked for his lack of faith. I’ve never seen physical wind, and Peter is not said to be afraid of the wild water). Matthew 14:30

He who sat on it
He is allowed to take peace from the earth.

In the spirit/wind of the east I see the long simmering tension between Abraham’s two sons, Ishmael and Isaac coming to boil. The modern descendents of the son of slavery and the son of promise are at war. Islam and The Way.

Osama B has been quoted as saying that the West can never defeat Islam because the West loves life but Islam loves death. While the rider of the white horse, the spirit/wind of the West pursues a bloodless domination, the rider of the red horse, the spirit/wind of the East has men killing each other in violation of the sixth commandment of Torah.

A great sword is given to the rider. Who but radical Islam is known for their blood-lust, their preference for war when peace could be had, and who else is know for the great crescent sword, the scimitar, which translates to lion’s claw? Who but Islam still practices beheading of infidels as we see happening in the Revelation?

Just as the prince of the power of the air is determined to have the very throne of God, so the descendents of Ishmael would dominate The Land and take the promises given to Isaac.

CWH

06-20-2009, 07:26 PM

Hi deb,

Very good insight!, Red also mean bloodshed and war to me. I also have in mind Islam as the red horse but somehow I vacillated between Islam and Communism. My preference is for Communism which I have already mentioned in my previous posts.

Zechariah's red horses in Chapter 6 : 3-6 is referring to the East wind (white horses to the west, black horses to the north, dappled horses to the south and obviously though not mentioned, red horses to the east) and may be referring to the Middle East. Islam have converted almost a third of the world's population as this may be link to Revelation's 12 hugh red dragon dragging a third of the stars from the sky to the earth. Note that stars represent nations as reflected and many national flags of the world. The hugh sword may also represent some Muslim countries which have a sword in their national flags such as those of Saudi Arabia and Oman which are also members of the Arab League. The hugh red dragon to me also represents the Arab League as explained in my other posts. The spread of Islam also caused many wars and hardships as evidenced by history in the Muslim conquests of North Africa, Europe, India, Middle East, This conflict lasted to this day as evidenced in the Israeli- Arab conflicts which you have said rightly,"In the spirit/wind of the east I see the long simmering tension between Abraham’s two sons, Ishmael and Isaac coming to boil. The modern descendents of the son of slavery and the son of promise are at war".

On the other hand, the spread of Communism also caused alot of hardships and sufferings. It is estimated that 100 million people were killed because of Communism. Christians were also persecuted in many communist countries. Communism also caused many wars such as Vietnam war, Korea war etc. and the conflict lasted to this day e.g. in Angola and Mozambique. Although the fervor of Communism have died down but it is still a formidable force to reckon with such as China and North Korea. The large sword as interpreted by me is a large lance-like killing machine no other than nuclear bomb and missile. This technology was obtained by the USSR from the West and was passed on to China which in turn passed on to North Korea. Note also the East wind of Zechariah represented by the red horses may refer to the Orient that is Communist China and Eastern Russia. Communism and its supporters amount to about a third of the world's population; China already have 1.3 billion people. This may be link to Revelation's 12 hugh red dragon dragging a third of the stars from the sky to the earth. Note that stars represent nations as reflected and many national flags of the world. BTW, China and USSR are popularly known as the Reds as reflected on their red flags. Communist countries in general have red flags.

When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

Many Blessings.

deb

06-21-2009, 06:51 AM

Hey C-Hawk (sorry, I’m from the Seattle area); I do not disagree with anything you posted about who might be spoken of. But the People of God are the Hebrews and the Scriptures are their book. We enter into covenant with their God when we come to the Son of their God for salvation. That is why the other groups are not good prospects in my world view. Yours are thought provoking and interesting possibilities, but for me it comes back to Ishmael and Isaac. Even the place of the final battle is in the disputed Land of Promise.

As to the compass direction of the red horse, maybe it did not seem like East from the perspective of one living there. Perhaps that is why it is not designated as “east”. Shortly after his first election, President Clinton came to Seattle. The mayor said something about the Governor of Oregon and referred to him as, “our neighbor to the south” which set the President to laughing. As former Governor of Arkansas, it was hard for him to consider Oregon as South. Perhaps what is east to us is the center of the universe to Zachariah. Just a thought.

I have no doubt that “communist” countries will play a part in end-time events. I am not so sure about America. We seem to be imploding at a rapid rate (circling the drain as my EMT buddies say). Unless we are the horn with the fatal wound that comes back to life I suspect that we are going the way of England, once known as an empire upon whom the sun never set, until she stopped giving her sole support to Israel. That seems to be the direction America is heading, how can God shed his grace on us if we are not in fidelity to Him? We have sold our soul to China for the love of money. My guess is that as China goes, so goes the USA. May God have mercy.

CWH

06-21-2009, 08:26 AM

Thanks deb,

These revelations came to me while doing Bible studies. You can never find these thoughts and ideas in the internet. Whether is it divine inspiration or not, I dare not say. These thought provoking ideas surprise me as well. I intend to share these thought provoking ideas gradually in the internet in the future.

I understood what you said about Ishmael and Isaac who were the fathers of the Arabs and the Jews respectively. Their conflict about their birth rights continues to this day manifested in the Israeli-Arab conflict which no man except God can settle. This is also manifested in the people of the Arab League who were descended from Ishmael and manifested in the EU whose people,many of whom were descended from the 12 tribes of Israel and therefore the 12 stars of the flag of the EU. I am not sure if there will be major conflicts between these descendants of Ishmael and Isaac in the future. I personally doubt so or perhaps only minor conflicts but what I do know is that the Israeli-Arab conflicts will play major events leading to the end times. I fact I believe the EU and Arab League will merge together so as to achieve superpower status to control world economy and politics.

Unfortunately, I do not know what role the US will play in the future or what will happen to the US. There is a possibility that the US may merge with the EU in the control of the world economy and politics. BTW I am not from America.

I agree with you that communist countries will play major roles in the end times. China may be the second Beast of Revelation with 2 horns and may be what Revelation 16 :12 talk about "the kings from the east" who will gather at Armageddon. Imagine a US-EU-Arab League-China alliance; it will be the most powerful superpower the world have ever seen..."who can fight against it".

Care to talk about the 3rd seal?

God Blessings to you.

deb

06-21-2009, 09:00 AM

About the images of the living creatures or Cherubim: I wonder if the four mentioned “faces” (eagle, man, lion and ox or calf) are left a mystery because each of the four has all four “faces”? Ezekiel 1 and 10 do allow for that. To me it reads as if from the center of the four (the position of the thrown above them) the face of the lion would be seen on each of them. But from the outside (the position of both Ezekiel and John) all four faces would be seen, one for each of them. So that in looking at the four (positioned in the shape of a cross or in the way the Children of Israel encamped around the tabernacle in the wilderness), the image closest to the viewer would be that of a man (facing away from the center), the next might be the face of an eagle, the next (farthest from the viewer and facing the center) would be the lion and finally, coming around might be the face of the ox/calf. Does that make sense? Thus there could not be a cherub known for having the face of an eagle because all of them do, it just is not always visible to the viewer. Still, the third seal seems to be from the face of the man because only man practices agriculture and is under the control of the economy.

My thoughts on the third seal.
The Gimmel

Behold (hey) indicates to me that I am being given a window into the spirit realm.

A black horse.
Black is often the “color” of evil and death. Actually, if Newton is correct, black is not a color but a complete lack of both color and light. White is all colors in light. The absence of color (black) in visions is said to speak of the enemy and we should pray the opposite of what we see in the vision with black because God is giving foreknowledge of the schemes of the enemy. Though there will be famine, Y’shua/Jesus is the bread of life (John 6:35, 41, 51). Where there is darkness, Y’shua is the light of life that the darkness cannot overcome (John 1 1-4, John 8:12)

Zechariah associates this horse with the north. Numbers 2:25 connects Dan with the North. His symbol is the eagle (not a man, Ruben to the south is symbolic of a man). The eagle is the watcher, the one who sees; while man is the image of HaShem. The bread of the presence and the menorah, the light, are set to the north end of the tabernacle. (Choose ye this day whom you will serve!!!)

The rider (actually, “he who sat on it)
Has a pair of scales in his hand. (God gives without measure, and if we use a measure it is pressed down and running over when God gives to us). Scales speak of the need to carefully ration. The bread gained by the sweat of the brow will be scarce, not so with the bread of heaven. Perhaps as with the widow of Elijah's day, it will take faith to see that our little is much in Messiah's hands.

The Greek word for “wound” is trauma (strongs #5134) In Luke 10, the Samaritan used oil and wine on the wound that he bound. (Luke 10:33-34). You should also look at James 5:14 and Psalm 103:2-5. It is possible that there will be grace in the midst of need at this time.

CWH

06-21-2009, 09:34 PM

[QUOTE=deb;12569]About the images of the living creatures or Cherubim: I wonder if the four mentioned “faces” (eagle, man, lion and ox or calf) are left a mystery because each of the four has all four “faces”? Ezekiel 1 and 10 do allow for that. To me it reads as if from the center of the four (the position of the thrown above them) the face of the lion would be seen on each of them. But from the outside (the position of both Ezekiel and John) all four faces would be seen, one for each of them. So that in looking at the four (positioned in the shape of a cross or in the way the Children of Israel encamped around the tabernacle in the wilderness), the image closest to the viewer would be that of a man (facing away from the center), the next might be the face of an eagle, the next (farthest from the viewer and facing the center) would be the lion and finally, coming around might be the face of the ox/calf. Does that make sense? Thus there could not be a cherub known for having the face of an eagle because all of them do, it just is not always visible to the viewer. Still, the third seal seems to be from the face of the man because only man practices agriculture and is under the control of the economy.[QUOTE=deb;12569]

Hi deb,

Sorry for the delay. I am from the other side.......I mean of the globe.:D. Thanks for the input, I have not thought of looking at the faces of the cereatures in different angles....something new that needs to explore further. What I believe is that the 4 creatures represent some of the characteristics of the 4 seals:
1st seal - which represents the spread of Christianity and therefore lion could represent the bravery and fierceness of the people and colonial powers who helped spread Christianity throughout the world. It could also represent Christ who belongs to the tribe of Judah and Christ is the originator of Christianity.
2nd seal - which represents Communism and therefore the ox represents the agrarian society which communism was developed against the oppressors who are usually their landlords. Ox also represents the strength and therefore the strength and power of communism (e.g. nuclear, military, sports etc. of China and USSR) of Communism. Some communist countries have the ox as their emblem on their flags e.g. Vietnam, Cambodia.
3rd seal - which represents famine and therefore man-face creature as what you have said, "because only man practices agriculture and is under the control of the economy." Man represents intelligence and many of the present technologies and systems are man-made.
4th seal - which represents natural disasters and therefore the eagle represents the disastrous strength of these disasters. Eagles are also vultures and represent the numerous death that will result from these disasters.

The 3rd seal seems to suggest a different kind of famine which is man-made.
Black does not necessary means evil or death; it is just stereotypical of the black color. In fact, all the 7 seals have elements of death regardless of color.
The pair of scale represents justice and scarcity and suggests that there is some injustice that contributed to the worsening of the scarcity of food.
There is a black stem rust fungus named ug99 currently circulating around some parts of the world and the peculiar property is that it attacks only wheat and barley and to a small extent rye. As the current wheat and barley species (80% of the world strain) were developed to withstand rust in the 1970's, it seems that this rust ug99 became resistant to the present strain of wheat and barley and the impact is that it will devastated large areas of wheatfields and barley farms. Currently it spreading from Africa to Iran and impending to spread to India, Pakistan, China, Europe. It take about 4 to 5 years to produce a new strain of wheat and barley with the ability and enough quantities to withstand ug99. But by that time, ug99 would have devastated large areas of wheatfield and barley farms causing severe scarcity of wheat and barley. People will then hoard wheat and barley and other food grains and will artificially create a mega-inflation of the price of wheat and barley. This is partly due to the greed of profits which opportunistic people do to create wealth at the expense of the poor and the innocent. Currently there is a news from UN that estimates 1 billion people will suffer, not due to food scarcity but due to continue rise in food prices. However due to the recession as a result of the "artificial" famine, the price of oil and ethanol and biofuel remains stable (and perhaps reduce) and in abundance as there will be less demand as people put more priority in getting food. Olive oil is used in ancient times what oil is curently use e.g. burning, medicine, lubrication etc. Ethanol and biofuel are actually wine chemically.

The black horses as described in Zechariah 6:3-6 is the north wind which an angel was sent to survey. The angel came back and told God that the north was devastated. The areas north of Israel are the wheat and barley fields of Europe and Russia....please take note.

5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages,[b] and three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

I agree with you, "It is possible that there will be grace in the midst of need at this time". The Lord said, "Do not be afraid little flock" (Luke 12:32)

God Blessed.:pray:

deb

06-22-2009, 07:52 AM

Good morning C-Hawk! (I just crawled out of bed and am sipping my first coffee, trying to clear my head. . .it was Father’s Day in the States yesterday and while studying famine I over-indulged in BBQ and pie. So I’m feeling a little thick this AM)

I did read all the interesting input before I responded the first time to this thread but yours is worth repeating. You seem to be a thoughtful person and could very well be spot-on.

The reason I stand on what I have gleaned from the book (at least for now) is because when I overview the book as a whole I notice a very clear tension between Light and darkness in the spiritual realm (HaShem and His Son, my Messiah vs the serpent we know as the devil). The major tension in the physical realm reflects the powers and forces of the spiritual/heavenly realm. In my view it comes back to the struggle for power between the first two sons of Abraham. Of course it goes back even further.

The sons of Noah were given 'blessings' that have affected the world. The descendents of Ham, Shem and Japheth still manifest in this era. Shem’s line is still the chosen line through whom Messiah came, but so did Mohammed by way of Abraham’s first son with the slave, Hagar. Ishmael was half Egyptian (of the line of Ham) and half Hebrew (of the line of Shem). God blessed Ishmael in the wilderness when Hagar called on HaShem, calling him El Roi, The God who sees. Islam came from Ishmael. It reads a little differently in the Quran. The descendents of Japheth are blessed 'in the tent of Shem'. I generally understand that Japheth went north to Asia, Europe and then west to North and South America as well as Australia (Japheth seems to have wander-lust). Gentiles are any non-Hebrew nation, but even today we generally see that the religious descendents of Japheth come into covenant (or just get religious) with the God of the Hebrews, the light to the gentiles. (sorry about the history lesson, it is what I do) Nothing hard and fast, and as the times come to an end we fall away as the Hebrews ramp up their practice. Yet a battle is brewing in the Land of Promise. I have not read the Quran from cover to cover, but in no way do I agree that Allah and HaShem are the same deity. In both the physical realm and the spiritual realm war is on the horizon. And while I do not disagree with your historical and agricultural facts, I see the result of the seals in a different way. However, you could be quite right, time will tell.

It is a very popular view on this board that the rider of the first horse is the Jewish Messiah. I disagree, but have already said why. Since this post is already too long I will not further encumber you with a rehash of that. Many of my students start with that view when we come to chapter 6. I did too. In fact sometimes I read a good argument for the rider of the white horse to be Messiah and must take another look, but so far I keep coming back to what I have already said. Who is to say one way or the other until we see and know for certain? But it blesses me to see people trying to put it all together and it is my pleasure to be counted among that number.

Deborah …loving the discussion!

CWH

06-22-2009, 09:31 AM

Hi Deborah,

Wow! Thanks for your comments, you really make my day. How I wish I could join you for the BBQ on Father's Day. Feeling thick? ...Have a ginseng!:D

Funny, I read the Quran too, but that was several years ago. I think the Quran is a copycat of the Bible. Looks like we are on the same frequency. Nice chatting with you. :). I find you very knowledgeable with equally good insight.

The Bible is like a history book about Good and Evil. In the end, Good will triumph over Evil and live happily ever after.

I do not know much about Japheth but I believe he went east into Asia.....co-incidentally Japheth sounds like Japan. Revelation and endtimes are my spacial interests and it is within these 2 years that I seems to see Revelation in a different perspective. I understand that it is different from the "norm" of what people usually interpret about Revelation. Not sure if it is a divine gift, only time will tell. Like I once too thought that that the white horseman in seal 1 refers to the Messiah but now it seems to refer to the spread of Christianity.

Care to discuss about the 4th seal? It is my 2nd special interest after the 3rd seal. The 1st seal and 2nd seal to me are already past and what we should be looking forward to are the 3rd and 4th seals.

Many Blessings to you.:yo:

deb

06-22-2009, 10:50 AM

I have always been taught that all oriental people, including the Japanese, descended from Shem.

My own view is that you cannot know the end if you do not understand the beginning. Revelation is the culmination of the rest of the Scripture, so my personal interpretation of the prophecy is dependent upon what is revealed in the rest of Scripture. But that is just me.

My view on the events following the breaking of 4th seal.
The dalet: the door

Once again the prophecy begins with 'behold' (hey) which speaks to me of a window into the heavenly/spiritual realm.

An ashen (or pale) horse.
I am going on a limb and saying that the dappled horses Zechariah and the pale horse of the Revelation are the same. The spirit/wind of the south.
Ruben, whose emblem is the face of a man, faces south. Still, as a bird of prey, the eagle could easily be seen as the face of the Cherub for this portion, but I am asking myself why it would change from what HaShem originally ordained?

If the color of the horse is green (as the Greek word that describes the horse of Revelation) then in a positive sense it can picture, new life and a time of refreshing. This would be a bright, grass green. But this is a pale, dead grass color and in a negative sense it would suggest sickness, jealousy and lust.

If the color is gray, then in a positive sense there is knowledge, in the negative it suggests deception and compromise. But none of these really call to mind the death that the 4th seal clearly indicates. So I am sticking to pale green of dead grass or hay, what we would call 'dun' in a horse.

The rider (the first to have a name)
Death, with authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill
· With the sword
· With famine
· With pestilence
· By wild beasts

Hades (Sheol) follows.

To the south, ¼ of the population will die a rather gruesome death.

CWH

06-22-2009, 06:25 PM

Fourth seal:
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Hi deb,

The 4th seal of Revelation to me is the most difficult of all the 4 seals. There are many knotty issues:
1. It tends to focus on the number 4: It is the 4th seal, the fourth living creature say, there are 4 disasters, kill a fourth of the earth, there are 4 living creatures.
2. Why must Death and Hades come together? Both have the same meaning to me. If Hades followed Death closely behind, what is the significance?
3. Not sure if the famine mentioned is a continuation of the famine from seal 3. I personally don't think so; it is more likely a world famine caused by drought and wars.
4. Not sure if the 4 disasters come together at the same time or in quick succession. To me, most likely the latter. Wars will lead to famine as people ran away, leaving the farms unattended. Famine will lead to diseases and weakness due to lack of nutrition. Physical weakness will become easy targets for wild carnivorous animals, vermins, germs (by means of wild animals, including birds and vermins) will also attack weak humans leading to the spread of diseases. Vultures will be waiting to scavenge the dead and dying.

Agree, the dappled horses and the pale/pale green horse of Revelation are the same. Pale suggests the color of death. The dappled horses of Zechariah is the south wind which are the areas south of Israel i.e. Africa. Are the wars and subsequent disasters to start from Africa? the countries of the Arab League? Note also that it is said that almost all human diseases originate from Africa and Africa have the largest hordes of wild animals in the world.

Pale horse may suggest a pale looking world with pale green dead grasses or hay (thanks for your idea which I have not thought of) caused by lack of water. The pale looking world are caused by drought, smog and wars which caused forest fires and grassland fires. If it is nuclear wars, the paleness is caused by the fallouts and fires from the nuclear radiations. The nuclear wars will also hasten climate change with its heat and radiation.

A quarter of the earth will die and that is equals to 1.5 billion people based on the current population. With this and other impending disasters from the other seals, the future world will be short of human rather than over-populated. Of course there is hope for us, the Lord said, "Do not be afraid little flock" (Luke 12:32). Matthew 24:22 states, "If those days were not shortened, no one will survive. But for the sake of the elect, God will shorten the days".

God Blessed:pray:.

CWH

06-24-2009, 09:53 AM

Hi,

This is what I see in the pale horse in Revelation seal 4. Since horse is used in battle and it suggests a time of troubles. The pale horse in seal 4 of Revelation suggests a pale hazy, smoggy world caused by air pollution, burning, forest and grassland fires caused by global warming and wars perhaps nuclear explosions. With continual hazy, smoggy days, there won't be enough sunlight to sustain vegetation growth resulting in crop failures and famines. Famines will lead to wars (for food) and diseases. Global warming will lead to the spread of tropical diseases in the tropics and to the temperate regions.

http://sarahpalintruthsquad.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/air-pollution-smog-over-los-angeles.jpg

Let's pray for God's intervention in these times of trouble.

God Blessed:pray:

Greenbrier

06-24-2009, 07:33 PM

As I have been reading the posts here I am struck with the idea that the White horse and rider represent the Holy Sprit - the Promise who goes forth conquering and to conquer. Christ ascended up to heaven and then opened the first seal. The Holy Sprit continues to convict men of their sin and compel men to come to Jesus - to conquer the world.

Grace to you all,

CWH

06-24-2009, 10:26 PM

Greenbrier

06-25-2009, 07:49 PM

Hi greenbrier,

The point of focus here in seal 1 is the spread of Christianity. It will not make any difference if Christ, God the Father or the Holy Spirit is the one who conquers and conquers, the whitehorseman. They are one and the same. In fact, Christ ordained his disciples to spread the Gospel throughout the world. But the spread of Christianity would caused alot of hardships such as the Crusades, wars, conquests, colonisations. That I believe is what seal 1 is talking about. Note that all the other 6 seals talk about about sufferings and death; it can't be that seal 1 is the exception. BTW to compel people to come to Christ is not good, I would rather that they come to Christ on their own free-will or motivated by the Holy Spirit.

Many blessings to you.

I am sorry I was not clearer in my original post. With regards to the discussion of who the rider on the white horse is my suggestion was could it perhaps be the Holy Sprit sent by the Lord (at Pentecost) as promised to the disciples.

When I said "compel" I had in mind Luke 14:23

And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel {them} to come in, so that my house may be filled.

which was part of a recent Bible study.

Grace to you,

Jeff

CWH

06-25-2009, 10:22 PM

Hi Greenbrier,

Just trying to understand your thinking, you probably associate the white color of the whitehorseman to Pentecost. Pentecost was celebrated traditionally on a WhitSunday (OE White Sunday) wearing white robes.

Your suggestion, "the rider on the white horse is my suggestion was could it perhaps be the Holy Sprit sent by the Lord (at Pentecost) as promised to the disciples", although plausible but I have my doubts. One of the main reason is that the Holy Spirit don't ride on white horse but on white clouds as usually depicted in the Bible. Secondly ,"the Promise that goes forth conquering and to conquer" as you said is referring to what?.... the spread of the Gospel (and Christianity) throughout the world of course! So the whiitehorseman refers to the spread of Christianity.

The rider does not refers to an individual but to an event, the colors (white, red, black, pale) refers to the color of the event which is a hint to the event and horse refers to calamity as horses were used in wars. Therefore the rider on the white horse means the event that has a "white" calamity. White refers to purity of Christianity or/and the white men from Europe, the colonial powers. Red most probably refers to Communism. Black refers to the Black stem wheat rust that caused the famine and Pale or pale green probably refers to the hazy world and dried grasses caused by air pollution and global warming.

In summary, seal one of Revelation refers to the spread of Christianity worldwide by the various means described which brought along sufferings and hardships.

Many Blessings to you.:)

CWH

06-26-2009, 04:14 AM

]Hi,

I have found an article which refers to the black wheat stem rust that have affected wheat fields since Roman times and it will occur again. Watch out for this black wheat stem rust call ug99. I believe it is refering to the 3rd seal of revelation; the black horseman. I have highlighted some interesting comments:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/apr/22/food.foodanddrink

Scientists say millions of people face starvation following an outbreak of a deadly new strain of crop disease which is spreading across the wheat fields of Africa and Asia.

The disease, known as black stem rust, has already destroyed harvests in Uganda, Kenya and Ethiopia. Now researchers report that stem rust spores have blown across the Red Sea into the Arabian peninsula and infected wheat fields in Yemen. Spores have also blown northwards into Sudan.

Experts believe the disease - Puccinia graminis - will spread to Egypt, Turkey, the Middle East and finally India and Pakistan, which would lead to the destruction of the principal source of food for more than a billion people. Some observers warn that the disease could reach Egypt, which is heavily dependent on wheat, before the end of this year.

'This thing has immense potential for social and human destruction,' the international agriculture expert and Nobel prize-winner Norman Borlaug warned this month.

Black stem rust has blighted wheat production in many parts of the world for thousands of years. So pernicious were its effects that the Romans prayed to a stem rust god called Robigus.
[B]'The Bible talks about plagues afflicting crops and these are almost certainly references to stem rust,' said Rick Ward, of the Global Rust Initiative, which has been set up to counter the new threat. When an outbreak occurred, a field of ripening wheat would be transformed into a mass of blackened vegetation.

Every few years one of these outbreaks would lay waste to entire harvests, sometimes sweeping across continents in only a few months.

But in the 1960s scientists and agriculture experts began to develop ways to counter the menace. Disease-resistant varieties of wheat were produced and planted in the West and in developing countries. As a result, it disappeared from most farms.

'Stem rust was something we felt we had solved,' Mariam Kinyua, a plant breeder at the Kenya Agricultural Research Institute in Njoro, told the journal Science this month.

However, a new strain of the fungus - known as Ug99 - was found in breeding nurseries in Uganda several years ago. The discovery caused alarm because virtually every variety of wheat tested with the strain was severely affected.

'Varieties that had been resistant for many years were no longer resistant,' said Wafa Khoury, a plant pathologist at the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation in Rome.

Within a year Ug99 was found in fields in Kenya and Uganda. The damage inflicted was severe but did not cause huge social problems because wheat is not a staple crop in either country. Nevertheless a field centre for Ug99 was established in Njoro and samples of wheat from around the world, including Argentina, Canada and Australia, were sent for testing. Virtually every single sample was found to be susceptible. 'That's what really caused the panic,' said Khoury.

This point was backed by Ward. 'The world had been safe for 50 years, but now the biblical plague that used to afflict our crops has returned. This is a very serious situation.'

The chilling feature about the new stem rust strain is the manner of its attack: Ug99 specifically targets resistance genes in wheat. As a result, it is now believed that 80 per cent of wheat varieties grown in the developing world are likely to be susceptible to the fungus. 'It's heaven for the [Ug99] pathogens,' said Khoury.

The spread of Ug99 to Yemen, where wheat is a staple, was confirmed in February by a team that included Khoury.

Now studies of wind patterns suggest Ug99 will soon spread to Saudi Arabia and the Near East. Eventually Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan and Europe could be affected.

'We have to breed new wheat strains that are resistant to Ug99,' said Ward. 'If we do not, then we face the prospect of countries like Egypt and Pakistan suffering calamitous losses of wheat production. That would trigger all sorts of destabilising effects, ones that could have profound implications for the West. We have to move quickly. There is no time to lose.'

3rd seal:
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of [B]barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

God Blessed:pray:

CWH

06-27-2009, 08:58 AM

Hi,

I would like to recommend a website which focus primarily on the 4 horsemen of Revelation. It is worth reading but very lengthy:

http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PW/k/893/The-Four-Horsemen-In-Saddle.htm

I am quite agreeable with its definition of the horse and in summary of the 4 horsemen of Revelation:

Probably the most complete biblical exposition on horses appears in Job 39:19-25. God says to Job:
Have you given the horse strength? Have you clothed his neck with thunder [or, a mane]? Can you frighten him [or, make him spring] like a locust? His majestic snorting strikes terror. He paws in the valley, and rejoices in his strength; he gallops into the clash of arms. He mocks at fear, and is not frightened; nor does he turn back from the sword. The quiver rattles against him, the glittering spear and javelin. He devours the distance with fierceness and rage; nor does he stand firm because the trumpet has sounded. At the blast of the trumpet he says, "Aha!" He smells the battle from afar, the thunder of captains and shouting.
The picture is of an animal eager and well-suited for war and carnage. Elsewhere, the Bible shows horses to be speedy (Jeremiah 12:5; Joel 2:4) and fierce when they charge in battle (Habakkuk 1:8), causing panic and fright (Jeremiah 8:16). They are also strong (Psalm 147:10), many times the strength of a man, and formidable, especially in the gear of war.

This is the exact impression the image of the Four Horsemen is designed to elicit. They represent an oncoming, relentless, unstoppable, and terrifying enemy bent on destruction and death. They are embodiments of some of humanity's greatest fears. And, as Jesus says, they are just the beginning of woeful onslaught mankind must endure before the end of the age!

We are already living in this end of the age.

Happy Reading.

God Blessed:pray:

CWH

12-06-2009, 06:03 AM

New virulence in East Africa
In a nursery in Uganda, Africa in 1999, susceptible type stem rust pustules (collection designated Ug99) were found on wheat lines known to have the stem rust resistance gene Sr31, a gene for which no virulence had been reported previously*anywhere in the world.* Similar virulence was observed in 2001 in Kenya and 2003 in Ethiopia.* (Race identification of earlier observations prior to 2001 could not be confirmed because of a lack of samples).* Race typing (race TTKS based on Pgt system of nomenclature, see Phytopathology 78:526-533) and DNA confirmed the presence in Kenya in 2005.* Sr31 is on the 1B/1R chromosomal translocation, a piece of rye chromosome that has been introduced into many wheat cultivars.* In addtion to Sr31, the leaf rust resistance gene Lr26 and the stripe rust resistance gene Yr9 are also on the 1B/1R translocation.
Stem rust vulnerability of wheat worldwide--the Sr31 factor
Stem rust resistance gene Sr31 is widely utilized in wheat worldwide, particularly in the India subcontinent, China, Europe, and South America.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=14649

Hi,

This is probably a co-incidence. SR31 is a gene used to prevent black stem rust in the common wheat varieties. However ug99 is a new virulent black stem rust that could resist SR31. The co-incidence in relation to ug99 is in the SR31 gene in the 1B/1R chromosome translocation in the verse in 3rd Seal, "5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "A quart[a] of wheat for a day's wages, and [B]three quarts of barley for a day's wages,[c] and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

It's worrisome that ug99 black stem rust may become the next world disaster:

Scientists now fear that Ug99, a devastating wheat fungus also known as stem rust, could wipe out over 80 percent of the world's wheat crop as it spreads from Africa. In a world already on the verge of a massive food crisis, this is really, really bad news.  Most Americans have never heard Ug99, but the reality is that it is considered to be the most serious threat to the world food supply.  Ug99 is referred to as "stem rust" because it produces reddish-brown flakes on wheat stalks. It is incredibly deadly and there is no known way to cure it.  The Los Angeles Times reports that The International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center in Mexico now estimates that 19 percent of the world's wheat crop, mostly located in Asia and Africa, is in imminent danger. If Ug99 were to start spreading in the United States, it is estimated that approximately 10 billion dollars worth of wheat crops would be destroyed.  10 billion dollars.  That is a whole lot of bread.  The L.A. Times also reports that Rick Ward, the coordinator of the Durable Rust Resistance in Wheat project at Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y., says that "A significant humanitarian crisis is inevitable."  Apparently Ug99 has already jumped the Red Sea and has affected areas as far as Iran already.  Wheat Experts say that it is poised to enter northern India and Pakistan, and that the wind will inevitably carry it to Russia, China and even North America.  If it doesn't get to North America some other way first.  Jim Peterson, a professor of wheat breeding and genetics at Oregon State University in Corvallis, does not sound optimistic:  "It's a time bomb," he told the L.A. Times.  "It moves in the air, it can move in clothing on an airplane. We know it's going to be here. It's a matter of how long it's going to take."  Are you all starting to get the picture?  This is serious.  If the worst case scenario came to fruition, and 80 percent of the world's wheat crop was destroyed, what do you think that would do?  Can you say famine?  As if things were not bad enough, wheat experts say that Ug99 is becoming more virulent as it spreads.  This quote from the recent L.A. Times article on Ug99 is very frightening.....  Scientists discovered a Ug99 variant in 2006 that can defeat Sr24, a resistance gene that protects Great Plains wheat. Last year, another variant was found with immunity to Sr36, a gene that safeguards Eastern wheat.  It is not like the world has enough wheat anyway.  The reality is that exploding populations, record droughts across the globe and dwindling strategic food reserves in the major industrialized nations have brought the world to the very edge of a devastating global food crisis.  World food reserves currently sit at a fifty year low, and many experts are warning that we are now facing a "perfect storm" that will cause a dramatic spike in world hunger.  Even the major industrialized nations are not immune. With U.S. wheat reserves now at a record low, USDA Undersecretary Mark Keenum had to admit last year: "Our cupboard is bare."  Things have become so serious that even Time magazine has now declared that we are in "a global food crisis".  Most Americans would like to think that "wealthy nations" such as the United States are immune from world famine, but the truth is that the U.S. only has enough wheat held in reserve to make half a loaf of bread for each citizen.  Half a loaf of bread.  How long do you think that will last you if Ug99 sweeps the globe?  If you won't listen to us, perhaps you will listen to the United Nations.  In a stunning new report, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations is warning that impoverished populations around the globe are already feeling the pain of higher food prices. The price of important crops such as rice, which is a key staple in many poorer nations, spiked more than 400 percent last year. In fact, food riots broke out in many third world countries last year when large numbers of people could suddenly not feed their families.  The effects of food shortages are not being seriously felt yet in the major industrialized nations where food represents about 10 to 20 percent of consumer spending, but in developing nations the poor often have to spend up to 80 percent of their meager income on food.  Britain's chief scientist, Professor John Beddington, says that the global demand for food is going to increase by about 50 percent by 2030, and that this will cause massive world problems of unprecedented magnitude in the years ahead.  "It's a perfect storm," he told the GovNet Communications Sustainable Development 09 conference in London. "We're not growing enough food, so we're not able to put stuff into the reserves."  And his gloomy forecast did not even include the impact of Ug99 on the world food supply.  The truth is that the world is quickly running out of food and more people than ever are hungry.....  *1 billion people in the world go to bed hungry every single night.  *Every 3.6 seconds someone starves to death and 3/4 are children under the age of 5.  *More than 2.8 billion people, close to half of the world's population, live on less than the equivalent of $2 a day.  *About a third of all children in the world under the age of five suffer from serious malnutrition.  *The top fifth (20 per cent) of the world's people who live in the highest income countries have access to 86 percent of world gross domestic product. The bottom fifth, in the poorest countries, have about one percent.  *The assets of the world's three richest men exceed the combined gross domestic products of the world's 48 poorest countries.  When you add all of this up, the reality is that we could very well be on the verge of the worst global famine in the history of humanity.  If we are to take the scientists and the government experts seriously, then it is very likely that there will come a day when you will not be able to run down to the local Wal-Mart or the local McDonald's and grab all of the food you want.  Food shortages are coming. Will you and your family be ready?  For those of you who are interested in preparing, we encourage you to check out our sister site which has extensive information about how to get ready for what is ahead:  http://disasterandemergencysurvival.com/  Let us pray that things will not be as bad as scientists fear they may be. But the truth is that things will be REALLY horrible as we approach the end times, and all of us need to get prepared.

http://theendtimesblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/ug99-time-bomb-that-could-wipe-out.html

BTW, I have a feeling that seal 1 to 4 of Revelation are man-made disasters or disasters related to human development. That is probably why there are only 4 horsemen or riders (1 horseman in each seal). Horse is used in wars and it means disaster or trouble; men means man-made. The colors of the horses mean the causes of the disasters. The 5th to the 7th seal have no colored horses and horsemen mean the events in 5th to the 7th seal are not related to human development or are man-made.

Many Blessings.

TheForgiven

12-06-2009, 05:15 PM

BTW, I have a feeling that seal 1 to 4 of Revelation are man-made disasters or disasters related to human development. That is probably why there are only 4 horsemen or riders (1 horseman in each seal). Horse is used in wars and it means disaster or trouble; men means man-made. The colors of the horses mean the causes of the disasters. The 5th to the 7th seal have no colored horses and horsemen mean the events in 5th to the 7th seal are not related to human development or are man-made.

Many Blessings.

So then brother Cheow. Who are the people who would end up suffering these man-made diseases? Your answer is in the text of Revelation itself:

Revelation 7:

Revelation 7

1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, 'Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.' 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

So you see? It's not the "world" that would suffer the catastrophic events of the seals. But those who were NOT SEALED from the 12 Tribes of Israel.

Therefore, the answer is the 12 Tribes, and NOT the world.

Context, context, context....:winking0071:

Joe

CWH

12-07-2009, 02:16 AM

Hi Joe,

Joe:
Revelation 7

1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;[a]
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Hi Joe,

What is the four corners of the earth in Revelation 7 verse 1 refers to?...Israel? If the earth based on preterist's view refers to the whole Roman Empire, I wonder what the four corners of the earth refers to? obviously the whole world?.....

The sealing of the 144,000 occurs AFTER ALL THESE THINGS. What are these things, they are the events of the 1st to the sixth seals! The 1st to the sixth seals are unleashed in Revelation Chapter 6, followed by the sealing of the 144,000 in Chapter 7 and then the 7th seal in Chapter 8. This follows a chronological pattern.

Joe,
Context, context, context....:)

Many Blessings to you.

Rose

12-07-2009, 08:56 AM

Hi Joe,

Hi Joe,

What is the four corners of the earth in Revelation 7 verse 1 refers to?...Israel? If the earth based on preterist's view refers to the whole Roman Empire, I wonder what the four corners of the earth refers to? obviously the whole world?.....

The sealing of the 144,000 occurs AFTER ALL THESE THINGS. What are these things, they are the events of the 1st to the sixth seals! The 1st to the sixth seals are unleashed in Revelation Chapter 6, followed by the sealing of the 144,000 in Chapter 7 and then the 7th seal in Chapter 8. This follows a chronological pattern.

Joe,
Context, context, context....:)

Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow

Hope you don't mind if I jump in and add my understanding of the matter at hand...:D

The four corners in Rev. 7 is symbolic of the whole body of Israel. God was holding back the destruction of Jerusalem until the full number of the elect (of the 12 tribes) were sealed from wherever on earth they resided (from the book of Acts we know Jews lived in at least 16 different countries).
.

Mar 13:27 'And then shall He send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.'
.
At that time God was restraining the Roman army (His weapon of destruction), and when that restraint was taken out of the way the judgment of the 6th seal came down on Jerusalem ending in the Temples complete and utter destruction, along with millions of Jews.

God Bless

Rose

CWH

01-03-2010, 09:18 AM

Rose

01-03-2010, 11:10 PM

The 4th seal of Revelation does sound like WW3. Which war or series of wars could have resulted in destroying a quarter of the earth and its population and brought about famines, plagues and diseases? Only a major nuclear war or series of small nuclear wars could have done that. I also believe that climate change at the same time brought about diseases by means of wild animals in the form of swine flu, SARS etc. and other tropical diseases into the temperate regions as these regions become warmer as a result or global warming and nuclear war. Pale Horse probably means Death (pale) disaster and (horse) "rider named Death and Hades" probably means man-made (rider) hell on earth (Death and Hades).

Revelation 6:7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Luke 12:32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom."

Many Blessings to all.

Hi Cheow,

Why does the 4th Seal sound like WW3 and not like the horrendous calamities that befell the city of Jerusalem when it was destroyed by the Roman armies in AD 70?

More than a million people died by famine, by disease, and also being killed by swords, fire, and any other way imaginable. Those who were not killed in the war were carried away captive as slaves. One could safely say that at least a fourth of the Jewish population was killed during that siege of Jerusalem in AD 70.

God Bless,

Rose

CWH

01-04-2010, 04:41 AM

Hi Cheow,

Why does the 4th Seal sound like WW3 and not like the horrendous calamities that befell the city of Jerusalem when it was destroyed by the Roman armies in AD 70?

More than a million people died by famine, by disease, and also being killed by swords, fire, and any other way imaginable. Those who were not killed in the war were carried away captive as slaves. One could safely say that at least a fourth of the Jewish population was killed during that siege of Jerusalem in AD 70.

God Bless,

Rose

The whole poulation of the Roman Empire was 55-60 million people. This is what I got from wiki:

"By contrast, in the census of 70 BC, prior to the major civil wars of the late Republic (and considerably more conquests in Gaul and the East), some have estimated the population of the 'Empire' at a more considerable 55 to 60 million people".

In seal 4 of Revelation, it said that a fourth of the earth (known Roman world)was killed, that would mean about 15 million people were killed. Any historical record that the war in Jerusalem killed 15 million people through war, famine and diseases? The death of 1 million people in the war of Jerusalem in AD 70 did not even amount to 2% of the population of the Roman Empire at that time.

Taking into modern context, I could safely say a nuclear war would be capable of killing a quarter of the population of the whole world which would amount to nearly 1.8 billion people (Death and Hades). The death would results from nuclear bombs, famine due to nuclear fallout and radiation diseases. There would be climatic changes as a result of the nuclear war resulting in the spread of tropical diseases to all regions exacerbated by the spread from wild animals.

Many Blessings.

Rose

01-04-2010, 08:35 AM

The whole poulation of the Roman Empire was 55-60 million people. This is what I got from wiki:

"By contrast, in the census of 70 BC, prior to the major civil wars of the late Republic (and considerably more conquests in Gaul and the East), some have estimated the population of the 'Empire' at a more considerable 55 to 60 million people".

In seal 4 of Revelation, it said that a fourth of the earth (known Roman world)was killed, that would mean about 15 million people were killed. Any historical record that the war in Jerusalem killed 15 million people through war, famine and diseases? The death of 1 million people in the war of Jerusalem in AD 70 did not even amount to 2% of the population of the Roman Empire at that time.

In the book of Revelation the term "earth" [ge] is generally used in reference to the land of Israel, whereas the term "world" [oikoumene] is usually spoken when the idea of the civilized, inhabited part of the planet is meant (the whole Roman empire). With that in mind a fourth of the Jewish population of Israel (especially during the Feasts) could easily have amounted to 1 million people.

Rose

CWH

01-04-2010, 09:22 AM

In the book of Revelation the term "earth" [ge] is generally used in reference to the land of Israel, whereas the term "world" [oikoumene] is usually spoken when the idea of the civilized, inhabited part of the planet is meant (the whole Roman empire). With that in mind a fourth of the Jewish population of Israel (especially during the Feasts) could easily have amounted to 1 million people.

Rose

When the earth known as the planet earth and when is earth known as the land of israel? When is the world considered as the planet earth, the whole world and when is the world considered the Roman Empire, the civilized inhabited part of the planet? How about China at the time of Jesus. is it also a civilized inhabited part of the earth?

Many Blessings.

Rose

01-04-2010, 10:42 AM

When the earth known as the planet earth and when is earth known as the land of israel? When is the world considered as the planet earth, the whole world and when is the world considered the Roman Empire, the civilized inhabited part of the planet? How about China at the time of Jesus. is it also a civilized inhabited part of the earth?

Many Blessings.

Good question Cheow :thumb:

In reading the Bible one needs to be sensitive to the way words are used within the context of the Bible, that is the only way we can understand its symbolic language.

For example the Greek word oikoumene translated as "world" is generally used in reference to the inhabited, civilized world (usually meaning the greater Roman empire); in Rev. 16:14 it is used as such. In that same verse the Greek word ge translated as "earth" is used, which generally refers to a specific country or land. In Revelation the specific land that is being spoken of is Israel, and the world is the Roman empire.
Rev.16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth (ge) and of the whole world (oikoumene), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Hope that helps :winking0071:

Rose

gregoryfl

01-04-2010, 01:28 PM

Good question Cheow :thumb:

In reading the Bible one needs to be sensitive to the way words are used within the context of the Bible, that is the only way we can understand its symbolic language.

For example the Greek word oikoumene translated as "world" is generally used in reference to the inhabited, civilized world (usually meaning the greater Roman empire); in Rev. 16:14 it is used as such. In that same verse the Greek word ge translated as "earth" is used, which generally refers to a specific country or land. In Revelation the specific land that is being spoken of is Israel, and the world is the Roman empire.
Rev.16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth (ge) and of the whole world (oikoumene), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Hope that helps :winking0071:

RoseI would also add that all 15 uses of the word oikoumene carry the same meaning, the Roman Empire. Here they are:

Mat 24:14
Luk 2:1
Luk 4:5
Luk 21:26
Act 11:28
Ac 17:6
Act 19:27
Act 24:5
Rom 10:18
Heb 1:6
Heb 2:5
Rev 3:10
Rev 12:9
Rev 16:14

I know some will question some of these uses as pertaining to the Roman Empire, so if you do I will be happy to share why those particular ones I believe do in fact refer to it.

Ron

gregoryfl

01-04-2010, 01:32 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

01-04-2010, 01:41 PM

One more point is that whenever the Bible speaks of the end of the world, it never uses the word kosmos, speaking of the physical planet. It only speaks of the end of the aion, which is speaking of the age, a period of time.

Aion, kosmos, and oikoumene are the 3 Greek words used that are translated in the KJV as world. They each have different meanings though, as, for example, Ferrar Fenton's translation brings out wonderfully.

Ron
Hi Ron,

Very good points. But I would add that the word "kosmos" is used in 2 Peter to speak of the destruction of the "world of the ungodly" by the flood:

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world [kosmos], but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world [kosmos] of the ungodly;
I used to think that "kosmos" meant "the whole universe" as in "heaven and earth" but more study has led me to understand that it usually denotes the "ordered system" of human civilization. That is what was destroyed by the flood - not the planet nor the whole universe.

Richard

Edward Goodie

01-05-2010, 09:26 AM

Hi Ron,

Very good points. But I would add that the word "kosmos" is used in 2 Peter to speak of the destruction of the "world of the ungodly" by the flood:

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world [kosmos], but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world [kosmos] of the ungodly;
I used to think that "kosmos" meant "the whole universe" as in "heaven and earth" but more study has led me to understand that it usually denotes the "ordered system" of human civilization. That is what was destroyed by the flood - not the planet nor the whole universe.

Richard

I have gone one step further. I believe that "kosmos" is indicative of the Jewish old covenant system and/or the people that held to that system. I think this bids well especially when the elements of that "world" (Strong's 4747) hold to the doctrines/teachings/principles of that system...(Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9; Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20; Hebrews 5:12)

I find it extremely difficult to believe that those first century people understood "earth" as being the planet Earth. I once attempted to find out when exactly our planet got its name - and all the other planets for that matter. Was it not the 1st century view that the sun rotated around the "place" where humanity lived. Did they have the capabilities to determine planets from moons and other celestial objects? Why was the "place" for humanity considered to be FLAT up until the 1400 AD? These are other considerations that bid well against even the idea that "world" meant planet...

Richard Amiel McGough

01-05-2010, 10:25 AM

I have gone one step further. I believe that "kosmos" is indicative of the Jewish old covenant system and/or the people that held to that system. I think this bids well especially when the elements of that "world" (Strong's 4747) hold to the doctrines/teachings/principles of that system...(Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9; Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20; Hebrews 5:12)

Well stated. I agree completely! :thumb:

The stoicheia generally refer to the "elementary principles" of the Law that was fulfilled when the Jewish "heaven and earth" was destroyed. Thus we understand Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

I find it extremely difficult to believe that those first century people understood "earth" as being the planet Earth. I once attempted to find out when exactly our planet got its name - and all the other planets for that matter. Was it not the 1st century view that the sun rotated around the "place" where humanity lived. Did they have the capabilities to determine planets from moons and other celestial objects? Why was the "place" for humanity considered to be FLAT up until the 1400 AD? These are other considerations that bid well against even the idea that "world" meant planet...
I agree completely that the word "earth" in the Bible very rarely denotes the globe of Planet Earth. But I don't agree that the world was generally believed to be flat - the Greeks knew the planet was a globe and even estimated its radius sometime BC if I recall correctly. I'll find the link and post it when I get a chance.

Richard

Edward Goodie

01-05-2010, 11:19 AM

Well stated. I agree completely! :thumb:

The stoicheia generally refer to the "elementary principles" of the Law that was fulfilled when the Jewish "heaven and earth" was destroyed. Thus we understand Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

I agree completely that the word "earth" in the Bible very rarely denotes the globe of Planet Earth. But I don't agree that the world was generally believed to be flat - the Greeks knew the planet was a globe and even estimated its radius sometime BC if I recall correctly. I'll find the link and post it when I get a chance.

Richard

I'd like to see that link. Try hard and don't give up. I can't think of a single reference that speaks of the earth as being in reference to the planet Earth...

Richard Amiel McGough

01-05-2010, 11:45 AM

I'd like to see that link. Try hard and don't give up. I can't think of a single reference that speaks of the earth as being in reference to the planet Earth...
The link was to a refutation of the idea that folks generally believed the world was flat (see here (http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html)).

As for the use of eretz (earth) in reference to the globe the first that comes to mind is here:
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth (eretz) upon nothing.
Bible-Science (especially YEC) type folks have seen this as an example of supernatural knowledge of earth "hanging" in space. I'm not sure about this, but it seems plausible (except for the YEC part, of course).

And there is Genesis 1:1 which is generally understood as a reference to the planet earth. But I am reconsidering this because of the covenantal (menorah) structure of Genesis 1 and the symbolic meaning of "heaven and earth" seen elsewhere, such as Isaiah 51 in which God refers to heaven and earth in relation to the establishment of Israel:
Isaiah 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
This view is strongly confirmed in 2 Peter 3.

Richard

Edward Goodie

01-05-2010, 10:03 PM

The link was to a refutation of the idea that folks generally believed the world was flat (see here (http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/russell/FlatEarth.html)).

As for the use of eretz (earth) in reference to the globe the first that comes to mind is here:
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth (eretz) upon nothing.
Bible-Science (especially YEC) type folks have seen this as an example of supernatural knowledge of earth "hanging" in space. I'm not sure about this, but it seems plausible (except for the YEC part, of course).

And there is Genesis 1:1 which is generally understood as a reference to the planet earth. But I am reconsidering this because of the covenantal (menorah) structure of Genesis 1 and the symbolic meaning of "heaven and earth" seen elsewhere, such as Isaiah 51 in which God refers to heaven and earth in relation to the establishment of Israel:
Isaiah 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
This view is strongly confirmed in 2 Peter 3.

Richard

Hey Richard...thanks for that link!

And in regards to the covenantal structure of Genesis 1, have your read either of the following:

1. Beyond Creation Science - Tim Martin & Jeff Vaughn
2. The Lost World of Genesis - John H. Walton
3. Language of Creation (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/Articles/languageofcreation.htm) - Tami Jelinek
4. The Heavens (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/Articles/heavensconscience.htm) - Tami Jelinek

I guess you could add Jeremiah 4:23 and Hosea 2:18 to your list of "unusual" Genesis 1 type language...

Richard Amiel McGough

01-05-2010, 10:48 PM

Hey Richard...thanks for that link!

And in regards to the covenantal structure of Genesis 1, have your read either of the following:

1. Beyond Creation Science - Tim Martin & Jeff Vaughn
2. The Lost World of Genesis - John H. Walton
3. Language of Creation (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/Articles/languageofcreation.htm) - Tami Jelinek
4. The Heavens (http://www.newcreationministries.tv/Articles/heavensconscience.htm) - Tami Jelinek

I guess you could add Jeremiah 4:23 and Hosea 2:18 to your list of "unusual" Genesis 1 type language...
I recently read Beyond Creation Science and was very impressed. I have not read the other three.

Edward Goodie

01-05-2010, 10:58 PM

I recently read Beyond Creation Science and was very impressed. I have not read the other three.

The second one was written by a non-preterist. 3 and 4 are fairly short articles that require much thought - as if preterist writings don't always require this!!! :lol:

CWH

01-06-2010, 01:01 AM

What do you all guys thinks of these circles. What are they referring to?.....
circle of the earth? was it referring to the planet earth?:
circle of heavens? was it referring to the planets. suns, stars, moons
circle of the deep? was it referring to the earth's core when God first design to make the earth?

Job 22:14
Thick clouds [are] a secret place to Him, And He doth not see;' And the circle of the heavens He walketh habitually,

Proverbs 8:27
In His preparing the heavens I [am] there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,

Isaiah 40:22
He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants [are] as grasshoppers, He who is stretching out as a thin thing the heavens, And spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in.
Many Blessisngs.

gregoryfl

01-06-2010, 06:17 AM

Keil and Delitzsch Commentary says this:

Again a sentence clothed with two designations of time. The adv. of place שָׁם is used, chiefly poetically, for אָז, eo tempore (Arab. thumm, in contradistinction to thamm, eo loco); but here it has the signification of place, which includes that of time: Wisdom was there when God created the world, and had then already long before that come into existence, like as the servant of Jahve, Isa_48:16, with just such a שָׁם אָנִי, says that He is there from the time that the history of nations received a new direction, beginning with Cyrus. הָכִין signifies to give a firm position or a definite direction. Thus Job_28:27 of Wisdom, whom the Creator places before Himself as a pattern (ideal); here, as Jer_10:12; Psa_65:7, of the setting up, restoring throughout the whole world. In the parallel member, חוּג, corresponding to שָׁמַיִם, appears necessarily to designate the circle or the vault of the heavens (Job_22:14), which, according to the idea of the Hebrews, as in Homer, rests as a half-globe on the outermost ends of the disc of the earth surrounded with water, and thus lies on the waters. Vid., Hupfeld under Psa_24:2. This idea of the ocean girdling the earth is introduced into the O.T. without its being sanctioned by it. The lxx (καὶ ὅτε ἀφώριζε τὸν ἑαυτοῦ θρόνον ἐπ ̓ ἀνέμων) appears to understand תהום of the waters above; but תהום never has this meaning, יָם (Job_9:8; Job_36:30) might rather be interpreted of the ocean of the heavens. The passage in accordance with which this before us is to be expounded is Job_26:10 : He has set a limit for the surface of the waters, i.e., describing over them a circle setting bounds to their region. So here, with the exchange of the functions of the two words; when He marked out a circle over the surface of the multitude of waters, viz., to appoint a fixed region (מִקְוֶה, Gen_1:10) for them, i.e., the seas, fountains, rivers, in which the waters under the heavens spread over the earth. חָקַק signifies incidere, figere, to prescribe, to measure off, to consign, and directly to mark out, which is done by means of firm impressions of the graver's tools. But here this verb is without the Dagesh, to distinguish between the infinitive and the substantive חֻקּוֹ (his statute or limit); for correct texts have בְּחֻקוֹ (Michlol 147a); and although a monosyllable follows, yet there is no throwing back of the tone, after the rule that words terminating in o in this case maintain their ultima accentuation (e.g., משׂמוֹ אל, Num_24:23). Fleischer also finally decides for the explanation: quum delinearet circulum super abysso, when He marked out the region of the sea as with the circle.