Dan. 12 -- John 12

[Rose]

Hi All,

Here are some striking thematic connections between Dan.12 and John 12. I'm sure some of this has been posted on another thread but I didn't take time to check it out.....and besides I always love reviewing all the magnificent treasures contained in this masterpiece of Gods design, called "the Bible Wheel".

Dan. 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased…….13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

John 12: 29-31 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out……..35-36) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them……..47-50) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Clearly both Dan. 12 and John 12 are speaking of the same things 'the Judgment of the Last Day' when Michael 'the great prince' will stand for the children of God, and Satan 'the prince of this world' will be cast out…..then comes the judgment and those who believe will be called children of the light and awake to everlasting life, and those who don’t will be left in darkness…..

And of course we can’t forget the wonderful thematic connection of Eccl 12 that ties it to Dan. 12, where it speaks of the dust of the earth and our spirits returning to God, but wait… there’s more! A strong link also occurs on Spoke 21 between Eccl. 12 and John 12, speaking of keeping God’s commandments, and His Judgment of mans works……WOW! This is getting pretty tight.
Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it……13-14) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


God Bless

Rose

[gilgal]

Hi All,

Here are some striking thematic connections between Dan.12 and John 12. I'm sure some of this has been posted on another thread but I didn't take time to check it out.....and besides I always love reviewing all the magnificent treasures contained in this masterpiece of Gods design, called "the Bible Wheel".

Dan. 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased…….13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

John 12: 29-31 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out……..35-36) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them……..47-50) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Clearly both Dan. 12 and John 12 are speaking of the same things 'the Judgment of the Last Day' when Michael 'the great prince' will stand for the children of God, and Satan 'the prince of this world' will be cast out…..then comes the judgment and those who believe will be called children of the light and awake to everlasting life, and those who don’t will be left in darkness…..

And of course we can’t forget the wonderful thematic connection of Eccl 12 that ties it to Dan. 12, where it speaks of the dust of the earth and our spirits returning to God, but wait… there’s more! A strong link also occurs on Spoke 21 between Eccl. 12 and John 12, speaking of keeping God’s commandments, and His Judgment of mans works……WOW! This is getting pretty tight.
Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it……13-14) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


God Bless

Rose

Hmmmm...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi All,

Here are some striking thematic connections between Dan.12 and John 12. I'm sure some of this has been posted on another thread but I didn't take time to check it out.....and besides I always love reviewing all the magnificent treasures contained in this masterpiece of Gods design, called "the Bible Wheel".
Dan. 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased…….13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

John 12: 29-31 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out……..35-36) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them……..47-50) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Clearly both Dan. 12 and John 12 are speaking of the same things 'the Judgment of the Last Day' when Michael 'the great prince' will stand for the children of God, and Satan 'the prince of this world' will be cast out…..then comes the judgment and those who believe will be called children of the light and awake to everlasting life, and those who don’t will be left in darkness…..

And of course we can’t forget the wonderful thematic connection of Eccl 12 that ties it to Dan. 12, where it speaks of the dust of the earth and our spirits returning to God, but wait… there’s more! A strong link also occurs on Spoke 21 between Eccl. 12 and John 12, speaking of keeping God’s commandments, and His Judgment of mans works……WOW! This is getting pretty tight.
Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it……13-14) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


God Bless

Rose
Hello my dear, :flowers:

The theme of Satan being "cast out" forms a strong link between Matthew 12, John 12, and Revelation 12. I talked about it here (http://biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Revelation/Rev12.asp). We have, in fact, a KeyLink based on the phrase "cast out" in conjunction with the words "prince" or "world" - here are the three verses selected by that search:

Revelation 12:24 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Matthew 12:9 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

I find this particularly intriguing because the theme of being "cast out" coheres with the literal meaning of the Twelfth Letter Lamed (ox goad).

Richard

[Rose]

Hello my dear, :flowers:

The theme of Satan being "cast out" forms a strong link between Matthew 12, John 12, and Revelation 12. I talked about it here (http://biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Revelation/Rev12.asp). We have, in fact, a KeyLink based on the phrase "cast out" in conjunction with the words "prince" or "world" - here are the three verses selected by that search:

Revelation 12:24 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Matthew 12:9 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

I find this particularly intriguing because the theme of being "cast out" coheres with the literal meaning of the Twelfth Letter Lamed (ox goad).

Richard

That's great.....:bounce: and of course as you know there is the mention of Michael the great prince in Dan. 12 and Michael and his angels waring against Satan in Rev. 12, which is again in keeping with the theme of Judgment, and the end of days.


Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


It's quite wonderful to have such strong witnesses in Scripture, manifest and linked together in the Bible Wheel, adding to and confirming our understanding of Gods Word.

I feel truly blessed to be a part of the generation that is able to partake in the wisdom of this magnificent revelation. :pray:

God Bless

Rose

[Rose]

Hello my dear, :flowers:

The theme of Satan being "cast out" forms a strong link between Matthew 12, John 12, and Revelation 12. I talked about it here (http://biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Revelation/Rev12.asp). We have, in fact, a KeyLink based on the phrase "cast out" in conjunction with the words "prince" or "world" - here are the three verses selected by that search:

Revelation 12:24 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Matthew 12:9 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

I find this particularly intriguing because the theme of being "cast out" coheres with the literal meaning of the Twelfth Letter Lamed (ox goad).

Richard

One more interesting point to note is that the only place in the Old Testament where Lucifer is specifically mentioned as being cast out of heaven and cut down to the ground is in:

Isa. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

God Bless

Rose

[Victor]

Hi All,


Here are some striking thematic connections between Dan.12 and John 12. I'm sure some of this has been posted on another thread but I didn't take time to check it out.....and besides I always love reviewing all the magnificent treasures contained in this masterpiece of Gods design, called "the Bible Wheel".
Hi Rose! I can't remember any of this having been discussed before. I learned these links by reading this thread, and I say that they are truly beautiful! Dan 12, Joh 12 and Ecc 12!

[Victor]

That's great.....:bounce: and of course as you know there is the mention of Michael the great prince in Dan. 12 and Michael and his angels waring against Satan in Rev. 12, which is again in keeping with the theme of Judgment, and the end of days.


Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

I was thinking along the same lines! Here are the connections:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michaeland his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Compare to the verses you posted:
Dan. 12:1-4 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased…….13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


John 12:25,29-31 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out…….. 47-50) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it……13-14) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


Caught/return to God, intelligent creatures being compared to stars, Michael standing up, Satan cast out, not loving our lives, keeping the commandments of God... Lots of stuff!

[Victor]

One more interesting point to note is that the only place in the Old Testament where Lucifer is specifically mentioned as being cast out of heaven and cut down to the ground is in:
Isa. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

God Bless

Rose

:yo: :)

One more little link! This chapter/verse index is particularly interesting because it links to two concepts associated to Letters 14 and 12 respectively:

Letter 14, Nun, has a symbolic meaning of "falling", as explained in How Thou Art Fallen!. Letter 12, Lamed, has the symbolic meaning of ox-goad that is related to drawing out Lucifer from heaven.

[gilgal]

I might be sidetracking a bit but Revelation 12 doesn't make much sense to me.

The Dragon in Revelation 12 has an almost similar characteristic to the first beast in Revelation 13 but they are different. The Dragon wanted to swallow the child.
-either this is Herod's attempt to wipe him out in Matthew 2 or;
-Satan's attempt to make him sin in Mathew and Luke 4.

But then who are the 10 horns at the time? or the 7 heads? the diadems?

First it starts with a sign in heaven and then the woman is chased by the Dragon on earth. The Dragon wants to devour the child (Jesus was on earth) but after his attempt he the Devil gets cast out of heaven.

[Rose]

I might be sidetracking a bit but Revelation 12 doesn't make much sense to me.

The Dragon in Revelation 12 has an almost similar characteristic to the first beast in Revelation 13 but they are different. The Dragon wanted to swallow the child.
-either this is Herod's attempt to wipe him out in Matthew 2 or;
-Satan's attempt to make him sin in Mathew and Luke 4.

But then who are the 10 horns at the time? or the 7 heads? the diadems?

First it starts with a sign in heaven and then the woman is chased by the Dragon on earth. The Dragon wants to devour the child (Jesus was on earth) but after his attempt he the Devil gets cast out of heaven.

Hi Gilgal

I think the similarities between Satan (represented in Rev. 12 as the Red Dragon with seven heads, seven crowns, and ten horns), and the Beast who rises up out of the sea in Rev. 13 (with seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns) is to show us that the power the Beast is given comes directly from Satan.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.

The Beast (Rome) is the "Rod of Iron" that God uses to break into pieces apostate Israel who is represented by the Harlot.
Rev. 2:27 And He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jer. 19:11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.

God Bless

Rose

[Victor]

I might be sidetracking a bit but Revelation 12 doesn't make much sense to me.

Oh yes, it is really tough. Revelation as a whole is not an easy read. The reader is caught up in the visions, soaring high in the wings of the Eagle -the Fourth Evangelist - midheaven between Time and Eternity.

So our customary temporal and locative markers cannot be read in a simple way as we glide through the Final Book. Case in point: the birth of our Lord, though taking place on earth, is described in Revelation 12 as happening in heaven. Different images coalesce in one single picture.

It is just like the Epistle of the Ephesians says: we live on earth, but we are described as 'sittting upon heavenly places' (Eph 2:6; compare to Joh 3:13).


The Dragon wanted to swallow the child.
-either this is Herod's attempt to wipe him out in Matthew 2 or;
-Satan's attempt to make him sin in Mathew and Luke 4.

I think they are both, together with all his devilish attempts to destroy Christ during His earthly life. And I think the primary image comes from Mat 2 with Herod's persecution.


But then who are the 10 horns at the time? or the 7 heads? the diadems?

They don't need to have a correspondence with kings like the heads of the beast in Revelation 17. It seems to signify the dragon's power and authority as 'prince of this world'.


First it starts with a sign in heaven and then the woman is chased by the Dragon on earth. The Dragon wants to devour the child (Jesus was on earth) but after his attempt he the Devil gets cast out of heaven.

That is the fusion imagery that I was mentioning. The action takes place on earth as it does in heaven. The dragon had access to the heavenly courts at the same time as he was able to influence events on earth.

[Victor]

The Beast (Rome) is the "Rod of Iron" that God uses to break into pieces apostate Israel who is represented by the Harlot.

Rev. 2:27 And He shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jer. 19:11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.
God Bless

Rose

Oh yes, the Lord used His "rod of iron" to smash apostate Israel in 70 AD. This connection between the rod of iron and Rome reminds us of the usual interpretation of the fourth kingdom in Daniel's visions.


Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Victor

[Victor]

As for being cast out out of heaven, there is another verse to join Isa 14:12 and Revelation 12:

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isaiah 34 is on Spoke 12 of the Inner Wheel of Isaiah.