View Full Version : The Woman in Revelation 12
Hi all,
Revelation 12 v1-2:
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
I just have an interesting revelation which I would like to share and it's different from contemporary interpretations. Sorry if it sounds futurist.
Contemporary interpretations claim that the Woman in Revelation 12 is:
1. Mother Mary, the Lord's mother
2. The Roman Catholic Church
3. Israel
Here's my interpretation and it is based on geographical locations:
The Woman clothed with the sun could represent Israel, the Roman Catholic Church, Christianity or even Rome.
Clothed represents flag.
The moon under her feet could represent the Muslim countries or the Arab League nations whose flag has a crescent moon. In fact many Muslim nations' flag have a crescent moon.
A crown of twelve stars could represent the twelve tribes of Israel but I think it represents the European Union whose flag is a ring of twelve stars in a blue background which represent the sky i.e. heaven.
Therefore, verse 1 and 2 in Revelation 12 seems to say, " There is a great and wonderful event: the great nation Israel (perhaps the RCC or Christianity as a whole) is formed, whose location is located between the Arab League nations or Muslim nations to the South and the European Union nations to the North. The nation Israel (perhaps RCC or Christianity) was born out of great difficulties and sufferings (suggesting of the Arab-Israeli conflict just after Israel's independence in 1948 or perhaps the early Christian persecutions in the 1st and 2nd century before Christianity gain hold and spread throughout the Roman Empire)".
God Blessed.
Hi all,
Revelation 12 v1-2:
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
I just have an interesting revelation which I would like to share and it's different from contemporary interpretations. Sorry if it sounds futurist.
Contemporary interpretations claim that the Woman in Revelation 12 is:
1. Mother Mary, the Lord's mother
2. The Roman Catholic Church
3. Israel
Here's my interpretation and it is based on geographical locations:
The Woman clothed with the sun could represent Israel, the Roman Catholic Church, Christianity or even Rome.
Clothed represents flag.
The moon under her feet could represent the Muslim countries or the Arab League nations whose flag has a crescent moon. In fact many Muslim nations' flag have a crescent moon.
A crown of twelve stars could represent the twelve tribes of Israel but I think it represents the European Union whose flag is a ring of twelve stars in a blue background which represent the sky i.e. heaven.
Therefore, verse 1 and 2 in Revelation 12 seems to say, " There is a great and wonderful event: the great nation Israel (perhaps the RCC or Christianity as a whole) is formed, whose location is located between the Arab League nations or Muslim nations to the South and the European Union nations to the North. The nation Israel (perhaps RCC or Christianity) was born out of great difficulties and sufferings (suggesting of the Arab-Israeli conflict just after Israel's independence in 1948 or perhaps the early Christian persecutions in the 1st and 2nd century before Christianity gain hold and spread throughout the Roman Empire)".
God Blessed.
Hi Cheow,
One of the problems with such a broad interpretation of "the Woman" is that Rev. 12 has very specific qualifications for the Woman which allows for only one interpretation. One is that she brings forth the "Man Child" who is to rule with a rod of iron, clearly identifying Jesus as the "Man Child".
Rev. 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Secondly, the last verse of Rev. 12 speaks of the Dragon, who is Satan going to make war against the remnant of the Woman's seed (the seed of the twelve tribes "Israel", which are represented by the twelve stars), who we know to be the Apostles upon whom the foundations of the church were built.
Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Just those two verses makes it pretty clear that "the Woman" symbolically is Israel of the 1st century.
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
02-23-2009, 07:30 PM
That was a pretty good response sister Rose! :thumb: I liked your short summary. I know at times, I tend to get a bit wordy with too much detail, and my message becomes somewhat garbled.
The "Male Child" is Christ, who rules the nations with a rod of Iron. The Historicist position interprets the "Male Child" as the infant Church. Based on their view, the Church remains an infant until the return of Christ. There could be some connection to that, but highly unlikely. For one, the Church was never referred to as a "male", but as a female; that is, the Bride of Christ. At the same time, we are also recognized as "the body" of Christ, thus substantiating the claim by the Historicist's that the "male child" is the Church, or the young body of Christ.
Although I understand their connection, it won't fit, primarily because the RCC (Whom they believe is the Beast of Revelation) would not exist for some 240+ years after the first century Church. By the 3rd century, the Church was more than mature. In fact, there were perishes all over Asia Minor, Egypt, Ethiopia, India, and some parts of China. The Church was merely growing in size, and not maturity. Thus, the Historicist position that holds to the "male child" as the infant Church (until His return) fails to hold water.
Therefore, our main focus of difference exists between Dispensationalism and Preterism. The 'male child' can be nothing more than Christ Jesus Himself. For it He that rules the nations with a Rod of Iron; the Church rules in a sense with Christ to many degrees, but not with a Rod of Iron. Only Christ has that authority; we do not have that authority. This is yet another reason to disprove the Historicist theory that the "male child" is the infant Church.
In conclusion, the male-child is the Messiah who was caught up to heaven after His resurrection, and since that time, has ruled and judged the world from His heavenly throne, after defeating both Beast and Harlot. His rule began after His ascension, and has no end. He reigns forever and ever.
Joe
Hi Rose and Joe,
I agree fully the Woman is Revelation 12 is Israel. In fact, there are some passages in the Bible which describe the nation of Israel as a woman (Is. 54:5-6; Jer. 4:31; Mic. 4:9-10).
Agreed : The "Male Child" is Christ, who rules the nations with a rod of Iron.
Although our position is different but our conclusion is the same. Looks like the jigsaw puzzle is slowly becoming clearer.
God Blessed.
Brother Les
02-24-2009, 12:16 PM
cheow posted
Hi Rose and Joe,
I agree fully the Woman is Revelation 12 is Israel. In fact, there are some passages in the Bible which describe the nation of Israel as a woman (Is. 54:5-6; Jer. 4:31; Mic. 4:9-10).
Agreed : The "Male Child" is Christ, who rules the nations with a rod of Iron.
Although our position is different but our conclusion is the same. Looks like the jigsaw puzzle is slowly becoming clearer.
God Blessed.
The 'name' 'Israel' has a multitude of usages.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven;[/ and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(((Do we see friends, that there are Two Women..... and that they 'Both' should be called 'Israel' One is 'the wife' of God of the Mosaic Marriage Covenant that drifted away into Harlotry -and stayed there-.... The 'other' (women) are those of the Mosaic Marriage Covenant that God had always kept to Himself (-Oh woe is me Lord I am the only one left that follows you...- No, my son, I save for MYSelf 7,000 that has not followed Baul) This was the 'Elect' 'Remnent' that was to 'come out' of 'the Wilderness. This 'Israel', The Elect OF Israel was who The Messiah was to 'come out of'.)))
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Brother Les
TheForgiven
02-24-2009, 02:25 PM
That's a pretty good summary brother LES. Sister Rose posted something like this months ago, regarding the two different women identified in Revelation.
The first woman is carried away into the wilderness where she will be nourished for a time, times, and half of time (1260 days). This same woman who lived in the wilderness eventually becomes the Harlot that rides the Beast, who spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. I find that this is a perfect representation of the former Israel; that is, the Israel of the flesh that did not submit to God's law, but sought to establish their own kind of righteousness, through some kind of works. Thus the woman that was left in the wilderness is eventually burned to death by the Beast that carried her. What a perfect picture of the battle between Rome and Jerusalem.
The woman that becomes the Bride of Christ is the Israel of God (Galatians 5) and grows into a beautiful woman, dressed wonderfully for the Bride Groom. We know this to be the Church.
Two women, one killed, the other engaged in eternal marriage.
Good post Brother LES.
Joe
Richard Amiel McGough
02-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Hi Rose and Joe,
I agree fully the Woman is Revelation 12 is Israel. In fact, there are some passages in the Bible which describe the nation of Israel as a woman (Is. 54:5-6; Jer. 4:31; Mic. 4:9-10).
Agreed : The "Male Child" is Christ, who rules the nations with a rod of Iron.
Although our position is different but our conclusion is the same. Looks like the jigsaw puzzle is slowly becoming clearer.
God Blessed.
Hi Cheow,
I knew there were some things we agreed upon!
Psalm 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Many Blessings,
Richard
TheForgiven
03-03-2009, 08:36 PM
Hmmm? :confused2: Where'd everyone go? I thought we had a great discussion going. Sorry for not posting anything these past few days, but it appears it wouldn't have mattered. :lol:
How's my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Oh, and by the way, my health is doing pretty good, so good Ole Joe will be around for much longer, Lord willing. Turns out that my heart was fine....still don't know what the problem is, but I haven't had any attacks these past few weeks, especially knowing that my heart was not affected. It may have been anxiety, or panic attacks; who knows these days.
Anyways, getting this thread back on topic, we're talking about the Identify of the woman (or women) in Revelation.
It's important for us to note that a woman is often depicted in the Bible in several different ways, but more like such:
1. Wife
2. es-spoused
3. ex-spouse
4. Prostitute/Harlot
5. Adulterous
Revelation seems to describe two women, and they are:
1. Harlot
2. Wife
Here's my question to all of you.
Seeing these are two separate women, were they both es-spoused to the same husband (Christ), or are we talking about two totally separate women?
My theory is that the first woman that wandered in the wilderness for 40 years represented Israel of the flesh. But her Harlotry and adultery with the nations left her abandoned by the Groom. This woman would be cleaned and purified and what started off as a young daughter of zion (infant Church) eventually became the Wife, or the Bride of the Lamb (Christ).
What say you all?
Is anyone there???? Hellooooooooo? Echoooo! :lol:
Joe
Hmmm? :confused2: Where'd everyone go? I thought we had a great discussion going. Sorry for not posting anything these past few days, but it appears it wouldn't have mattered. :lol:
How's my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Oh, and by the way, my health is doing pretty good, so good Ole Joe will be around for much longer, Lord willing. Turns out that my heart was fine....still don't know what the problem is, but I haven't had any attacks these past few weeks, especially knowing that my heart was not affected. It may have been anxiety, or panic attacks; who knows these days.
Anyways, getting this thread back on topic, we're talking about the Identify of the woman (or women) in Revelation.
It's important for us to note that a woman is often depicted in the Bible in several different ways, but more like such:
1. Wife
2. es-spoused
3. ex-spouse
4. Prostitute/Harlot
5. Adulterous
Revelation seems to describe two women, and they are:
1. Harlot
2. Wife
Here's my question to all of you.
Seeing these are two separate women, were they both es-spoused to the same husband (Christ), or are we talking about two totally separate women?
My theory is that the first woman that wandered in the wilderness for 40 years represented Israel of the flesh. But her Harlotry and adultery with the nations left her abandoned by the Groom. This woman would be cleaned and purified and what started off as a young daughter of zion (infant Church) eventually became the Wife, or the Bride of the Lamb (Christ).
What say you all?
Is anyone there???? Hellooooooooo? Echoooo! :lol:
Joe
Hi Joe, :yo:
Glad to hear things are looking up, and you're back to your old self. :lol:
I think the key to understanding the two women in Revelation is in this verse.
Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Woman who the Dragon is angry with was Israel of the flesh, who brought forth "the Man Child" Jesus Christ, and goes on to become the Harlot of chapter 17&18 ending in her destruction......the remnant of her seed was the Apostles, upon whom the church was built "the Bride of Christ".
God Bless
Rose
Brother Les
03-04-2009, 10:03 AM
Glad to hear that you on your way to a long life serving The Lord. (Two tablespoons of Apple Cider Vinegar, Two-three tablespoons of water, squeeze of lemon... mix and swallow..... everyday.... this will keep the acid and heartburn gone and cleanse your arteries... IMO )
My theory is that the first woman that wandered in the wilderness for 40 years represented Israel of the flesh. But her Harlotry and adultery with the nations left her abandoned by the Groom. This woman would be cleaned and purified and what started off as a young daughter of zion (infant Church) eventually became the Wife, or the Bride of the Lamb (Christ).
What say you all?
Is anyone there???? Hellooooooooo? Echoooo!
Joe
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
The 'Child-to-Man' only came to 'Gods lost sheep' ie The Elect of 'Israel' (Princes of God). He was 'manifested' to take away the Sins of The World... not the Sins of The Sea. If He was of 'The Harlot' he would not have been able to be caught up to the Thone of God. ("My Kingdom is not of -This World- ie. Mosaic Covenant Temple Cultus 'world').
The 'women' that fled into 'the Wilderness' was not of 'The Flesh' but of 'The Spirit'. In remembering the 'Types' and 'Anti-types'. Those coming out of Egypt, 'wondered in the wilderness' for 40 years and 'The All Died' there. The betrothal that was given at Sinai to 'The People'.... But ONLY The Children of those going into 'the Wildreness' 'Married God at Mt Horeb, just before 'they' (The Children) 'went into the Promised Terra Firma.
The Harlot 'Wife of God' of the first century were The Children of those that went into Promised terra firma of Palistine. These 'Children' stayed 'in sin' for 40years, from The Cross to the consematon of The Mosaic Age. She 'thought' that she was still married to YHWH ("I am no widow") and tried (badly) to keep the 'traditions' of the Mosaic Temple Cultus.
The Children (Wife)of The Promise of The New Covenant Age was 'betrothed' at Pentecost. These are those Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians that went through tribulations (mostly from and because of the Temple Jews) and were 'in the Wilderness' until the consemation of The Wedding of Christ and His Bride (The Jewish and Gentile Church) at the destruction of the Terra Firma (worldly) Promised Land.
What do you think, Joe?
(glad your posting)
I think the key to understanding the two women in Revelation is in this verse.
Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Woman who the Dragon is angry with was Israel of the flesh, who brought forth "the Man Child" Jesus Christ, and goes on to become the Harlot of chapter 17&18 ending in her destruction......the remnant of her seed was the Apostles, upon whom the church was built "the Bride of Christ".
God Bless
Rose
__________________
Rose, we can 'see' two women in the same time frame (40years from The Cross to the Holocaust) The 'harlot' women is there and 'betrothed' women is there .....'Both' are 'Israel'.... one of the Flesh and one of The Spirit. Jesus did not 'come out' of 'The Harlot' (so to speak), He came out of 'The Branch' of those that God had 'kepted for himself' IMO
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
Blessings
Brother Les
Silence
03-05-2009, 11:03 AM
I would like to mention something that I heard Chuck Missler say a long time ago. His impression of the woman in Rev. 12 is that she is Eve, in the sense that Eve can lay claim to being Israelite since they descended from her. There are many things that sound strange and contradictory at first, but if you look at the elements mentioned in connection with this woman in Rev. 12, Eve seems to be the progenitor of it all. In the garden the Lord promised the nachash (the promise was not addressed to Adam or Eve) that He would put enmity between him and the woman, and between his seed and her seed. So, in the big picture, Eve is this woman in Revelation 12. Of course, Israel would eventually be chosen as the nation that the Seed would come through, but they are descended from Eve every bit as much as all other nations.
Another thing that points to a bigger picture than the nation of Israel is the dream that Joseph described to his father Israel where the sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed down to him. I know in Rev. 12 there are 12 stars, but Joseph was playing a type of the Messiah and didn't count in his dream. So the house of Israel in relation to the Messiah's coming is symbolized by the sun, moon, and 11 stars (or 12 if you want to count Joseph) These same symbols are surrounding the woman in Rev. 12.
(As a side note and slightly off topic - There is a great book by Arthur Custance that describes how God could bring a pure and undefiled Messiah into the world through a fallen sinful woman. And how there is no need for an "immaculate conception". It is titled "The Seed of The Woman" and can be found at Custance.org. There is a lot of other interesting reading there too.)
One thing that puzzles me about the view that the woman riding the scarlet beast in Rev. 17 is Jerusalem (being symbolic of the temple system and old covenant Israel) and the scarlet beast being Rome is the fact that 17:8 says that the beast John saw the woman riding was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit. Rome definitely existed at the time John saw and wrote these things, so how can a beast that "is not" be ridden by the Jewish religious system of John's day?
TheForgiven
03-05-2009, 06:09 PM
One thing that puzzles me about the view that the woman riding the scarlet beast in Rev. 17 is Jerusalem (being symbolic of the temple system and old covenant Israel) and the scarlet beast being Rome is the fact that 17:8 says that the beast John saw the woman riding was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit. Rome definitely existed at the time John saw and wrote these things, so how can a beast that "is not" be ridden by the Jewish religious system of John's day?
Excellent question Silence. I've wondered how long it would be before someone noticed that. This entire thread is mostly about the woman, and the woman is clearly defined as Israel of the flesh, or at least the Israel based on physical things, i.e. the temple, the worship service requirements (fasting, new moon celebrations, animal sacrificing, etc). So seeing that this woman rides a Beast, how do we explain the point that the Beast "Once was" but now is not?
This is sometimes confusing because John is told that the Beast had seven heads. One of its heads appeared to have a fatal wound, but it was healed. Later in another chapter, John is told that this symbolized a fallen King who would return and do everything in honor of him (the first Beast).
Now when you picture Rome, you have to think of its entirety. Rome wasn't just a Nation, but a group of nations....much like the United "States". Rome, although not necessarily united, was a composite of many nations. This composite of nations that formed a vast Empire was ruled by Kings, or Emperor's. John is told that five of the heads (or Emperors) were fallen (dead), one existed in the applicable time frame (number 6), and a 7th would come but his reign would be very short. Most attribute number 6 to Emperor Vespasian, and number 7 to his son Titus who reigned only 3 1/2 years. But the focus is on the one who is to come, that is, the 8th head, or King (Emperor) who does everything the first King (possibly number 5). He is the one who is to come (or was to come).
Nero Caesar was the most cruelest of all Emperor's, as history records his horrors within many ancient writings, even outside of Church documents. After his death (accidental suicide that went wrong when he fell upon his own sword and was stabbed in the neck) Rome fell into a time of great darkness and depression spawning a huge civil war. After his death, the Church endured a slight break, and Christians were spared from further persecution....at least for a time. It's during this time that the Angel plunged the throne of the Beast (Rome) into darkness. This happened around 68 or 69AD. Rome was without a King, and Israel felt a false sense of security. Rome falls into a civil war, and three attempts were made by Roman Generals who each had each other killed to gain the throne. Finally, a victorious Emperor would gain the throne (Flavian Vespasian), who turned out being the 6th King (The one who is). Flavian had two sons (Titus and Domitian). Titus would become the 7th king who reigned a short time (3 1/2 years), and this TRIO (Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian) would revive the Roman Empire, and the Best would be reborn once again! WHO IS LIKE THE BEAST? WHO CAN WAR WITH HIM? Now pay close attention.
John is told, "The one who was, but now is NOT, is an 8th king, but is counted among the [original] seven [headed beast].
What does this mean? In my opinion, it means that a literal 8th king would be 8 according to the order of Kings, but spiritually counted among the first 7 headed Beast because of his actions. This would be Flavian Domitian, brother or Titus, and also a son of Vespasian, who was the 8th Roman Emperor to rule Rome.
What's significant about his reign is that some early church historians recorded his cruelty towards Christians. Unlike Nero Caesar's persecution of Christians, Domitian's persecutions were not limited to only Rome, but the entire Empire. Therefore, Domitian is the literal 8th king, but figuratively counted among the first seven headed Beast.
History records that some early Christians believed that Domitian was Nero Caesar back from the dead. Soon after Nero's death, which proves that Revelation must have been written in the 60's AD, Christian's began circulating the idea that Nero was not dead, and that he would come back to regain his throne, and avenge himself upon the Senate which conspired to kill him, just as they did Julius Caesar. Thus, the popular theory, Nero Redivivus....Nero back from the dead....circulated among Christians. Constantine (3rd century) stated this in his long book of writings, but did not accept this popular myth.
In conclusion, I believe the Beast who once was, but now is not, who was also the 8th king that was counted spiritually, or figuratively among the 7 headed Beast, is Flavius Domotius (Domitian).
Joseph
Silence
03-08-2009, 06:29 PM
Hi Joe,
I can see some similarities with the succession of emperors and the 'deadly wound' being symbolized by a civil war within Rome after the death of Nero. But there are several things in the text that seem to contradict that view.
First, v.8 says that this beast comes to the point where it "is not", then when it returns it says that it will ascend out of the bottomless pit. I don't know that Rome being in turmoil and civil war would equate with going down to the bottomless pit. How much of the Roman empire was destroyed or gained independence during the civil war? Was the year and a half that Rome was without clear leadership equivalent to going down to the bottomless pit?
Second, v.12 says that the ten horns are ten kings that have not received a kingdom at the time John wrote. It also says that these kings receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. It does not say that they each received authority one after another in sequence. Verse 13 says that they are of one mind and give their power and authority to the beast. So they are all in place at the same time. Verse 16 also says that these ten horns are the ones who make the harlot desolate, naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. Vespasian was emperor when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Titus. So these ten kings were in power when this happened. Titus and Domitian were not even emperors yet so how could Domitian be the beast that they give their power and authority to when they destroy the harlot and burn her with fire?
To me, it seems that the seven heads are considered parts of the beast but not the beast itself. v. 8 says the beast "is not", but v. 10 says that the 6th head "is". It seems that the 8th head is the full embodiment of all the heads and the beast put together. Also from v. 8 it seems that the beast disappears from view before it reappears and causes those who dwell on the earth to marvel. The fact that several people vied to take over the Roman empire tells me that it was still seen as an existing entity by those who wanted to rule it.
TheForgiven
03-09-2009, 07:20 AM
Hi Joe,
I can see some similarities with the succession of emperors and the 'deadly wound' being symbolized by a civil war within Rome after the death of Nero. But there are several things in the text that seem to contradict that view.
It's great that you're analyzing the Beast to the point of perfection. All I can give you is my opinion. I'm glad that you are at least open to suggestion. So lets get to it.
First, v.8 says that this beast comes to the point where it "is not", then when it returns it says that it will ascend out of the bottomless pit. I don't know that Rome being in turmoil and civil war would equate with going down to the bottomless pit. How much of the Roman empire was destroyed or gained independence during the civil war? Was the year and a half that Rome was without clear leadership equivalent to going down to the bottomless pit?
I believe the Beast (Rome) which had the head with the fatal wound was a representation of Rome under the rule of the Caesars (all five of them). When the five had fallen (beginning from Caesar Augustus and ending with Nero), Rome had temporarily fallen. [note: Some begin the first line of Caesars with Julius....I do not] The death of the final Caesar (Nero) caused a very dark time for the Roman Empire. This, I believe, represented the Angel plunging the throne of the Beast into darkness. But this is not the same time frame as the beast who would come again (2nd Beast and the 8th literal king, but spiritually the 7th) and go do the bottomless pit. That wouldn't happen until the 8th literal king is taken out.
Second, v.12 says that the ten horns are ten kings that have not received a kingdom at the time John wrote. It also says that these kings receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. It does not say that they each received authority one after another in sequence. Verse 13 says that they are of one mind and give their power and authority to the beast. So they are all in place at the same time. Verse 16 also says that these ten horns are the ones who make the harlot desolate, naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. Vespasian was emperor when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Titus. So these ten kings were in power when this happened. Titus and Domitian were not even emperors yet so how could Domitian be the beast that they give their power and authority to when they destroy the harlot and burn her with fire?
The 10 horns are part of the Beast (Rome). They are, in my opinion, the leaders of each province, or provincial kings. These had the same mindset as the Emperor's; that is, to rid themselves of Christian occupation that posed a serious threat to the Roman economy, and their gods. Trajan was written a letter by Pliny the younger on what to do with the Christians who were causing economic chaos to the Roman temple markets. Although Pliny wrote near the end of the first century, it shows evidence that the Christians throughout the Roman Empire was a matter taken very serious by the Emperor's prior to Trajan, and even beyond. The time frame (in my opinion) which represented the 10 kings was the time frame AFTER the death of Nero Caesar, and the reign of Vespasian (6 king). An alliance was established by the Roman Empire to join forces into ending the rebellion that caused trouble throughout Israel. Furthermore, Israel of the flesh was the Harlot who would eventually become burned (in her flesh) in 70AD. This was accomplished not only by Vespasian and his two sons, but the nations allied with the Roman Empire. Syria (according to Josephus) sent 5,000 troops, but there's no documentation or numbers on how many the other nations sent. Thus, I believe the 10 kings represented the governors, or provincial kings from other nations part of the Roman Empire.
To me, it seems that the seven heads are considered parts of the beast but not the beast itself. v. 8 says the beast "is not", but v. 10 says that the 6th head "is". It seems that the 8th head is the full embodiment of all the heads and the beast put together. Also from v. 8 it seems that the beast disappears from view before it reappears and causes those who dwell on the earth to marvel. The fact that several people vied to take over the Roman empire tells me that it was still seen as an existing entity by those who wanted to rule it.
Rome is the Beast with seven heads. The seven heads represented the Seven Roman Emperors. The fact that the first five heads (Emperors) had fallen, and the last eight literal heads (though 7 spiritually) defeated Jerusalem and restored anarchy and power to Rome, in my opinion, proves that the Beast that returned caused all the nations to marvel greatly at her. In a great sense, when Rome was restored to civil order, the nations grew quite proud of her success. Thus, Rome was revived and everyone felt as though no nation could take her down.
All of this came at the expense of the Harlot who was killed by the Beast.
In conclusion, the first Beast represented Rome under the five kings; the second Beast represented Rome reborn that burned the Harlot with fire. (Rome revived). The 10 kings were the nations that formed an alliance with Rome to carry out their mission against the Jews of the flesh, and the Christians. The final Beast was himself (Rome revived) destroyed and overtaken by the lamb who rides the white horse.....His Kingdom destroyed the Beast (first and second) and continues to this day.
Joe
All of this came at the expense of the Harlot who was killed by the Beast.
In conclusion, the first Beast represented Rome under the five kings; the second Beast represented Rome reborn that burned the Harlot with fire. (Rome revived). The 10 kings were the nations that formed an alliance with Rome to carry out their mission against the Jews of the flesh, and the Christians. The final Beast was himself (Rome revived) destroyed and overtaken by the lamb who rides the white horse.....His Kingdom destroyed the Beast (first and second) and continues to this day.
Joe
Hi Joe,
Good post, but I'm a little confused....:confused: What do you mean when you say that the first beast represented Rome, and the second beast represented Rome?
God Bless,
Rose
TheForgiven
03-09-2009, 10:54 AM
Hi Joe,
Good post, but I'm a little confused.... What do you mean when you say that the first beast represented Rome, and the second beast represented Rome?
God Bless,
Rose
The First Beast was Rome under the 5 Caesars. When Nero died, Rome was plunged into darkness. The 2nd Beast (in my opinion) was Rome revived under the Flavian Emperor's (Vespasian, Titus, Domitian). It was these three (the Trio gods) that destroyed Jerusalem, burned her with fire; additionally, it was these three that would lead to the implementing the persecution of Christians in the newly built Roman Arena. Not only would surviving Jews of the flesh suffer intensely under the Flavian dynasty, but the Christians would as well, especially during Domitian's reign.
I believe Domitian (by some) was regarded as Nero Caesar back from the dead.
Now this second Beast has also been interpreted as a Jewish Beast (The Ram with two horns of a lamb), which (according this view) represented the false prophet which is not easily identifiable. The only reason why I disagree is because the Angels says that this Beast is counted among the first seven (Rome) and is thus part of Rome. The Harlot (Israel of the flesh) would be distinguished between the two nations (Rome and Israel of the flesh). Thus, the idea that a false prophet in Israel doesn't seem to hold water to me, although I do not reject it entirely. After all, the 2nd Beast is known to be born from the earth (which we often identify as geographical Israel), and the first Beast was born from the sea (Gentile / the Nations).
So far, I tend to hold to the view that the 2nd Beast consisted of three rulers that rose from power because of their victory over Israel (the land). That is why I believe the Ram (Vespasian) and its two horns (Titus and Domitian) describes the 2nd Beast....Rome revived.
Joe
Here is a brief overview of how I interpret the seven heads and ten crowns of the Beast.
Rev. 17:9-13
9) And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.
10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
12) And the ten horns which thou saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
The seven mountains which are seven kings are representative of the seven Caesars:
1) Julius
2) Augustus
3) Tiberius
4) Caligula
5) Claudius
-----------------------------------------------------------
6) Nero (54 A.D. to 68 A.D.)
7) Galba---Otho---Vitellius (these three Caesars served from the last half of 68 A.D. to the first half of 69 A.D….less than 1 year; I count them as one)
8) Vespasian (69A.D. to 79 A.D.)
The first five Caesars who have fallen end with Claudius….. Nero is the sixth Caesar who is identified as the king that 'is' (meaning that he was the Caesar alive when John received his vision). The seventh one who is 'not yet come' I think refers to the three Caesars who served less than 1 year between them from the second half of 68 A.D. to the first half of 69 A.D….hence the reference to 'continue a short space'.
The Beast 'that was' is the same Beast from chapter 13 whose head was mortally wounded and recovered…..hence the term 'was and is not'. Ultimately this recovered Beast becomes Caesar Vespasian who 'is the eighth and of the seven', sharing the title 'Caesar' with the previous seven….he is the one who destroys Jerusalem in 70 A.D. with the help of the' ten kings' (the crowns on the heads of the Beast) who I think are symbolic of the kingdoms that Rome had control over and used to help in the final taking of Jerusalem.
God Bless,
Rose
TheForgiven
03-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Here is a brief overview of how I interpret the seven heads and ten crowns of the Beast.
Rev. 17:9-13
9) And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.
10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
12) And the ten horns which thou saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
The seven mountains which are seven kings are representative of the seven Caesars:
1) Julius
2) Augustus
3) Tiberius
4) Caligula
5) Claudius
-----------------------------------------------------------
6) Nero (54 A.D. to 68 A.D.)
7) Galba---Otho---Vitellius (these three Caesars served from the last half of 68 A.D. to the first half of 69 A.D….less than 1 year; I count them as one)
8) Vespasian (69A.D. to 79 A.D.)
The first five Caesars who have fallen end with Claudius….. Nero is the sixth Caesar who is identified as the king that 'is' (meaning that he was the Caesar alive when John received his vision). The seventh one who is 'not yet come' I think refers to the three Caesars who served less than 1 year between them from the second half of 68 A.D. to the first half of 69 A.D….hence the reference to 'continue a short space'.
The Beast 'that was' is the same Beast from chapter 13 whose head was mortally wounded and recovered…..hence the term 'was and is not'. Ultimately this recovered Beast becomes Caesar Vespasian who 'is the eighth and of the seven', sharing the title 'Caesar' with the previous seven….he is the one who destroys Jerusalem in 70 A.D. with the help of the' ten kings' (the crowns on the heads of the Beast) who I think are symbolic of the kingdoms that Rome had control over and used to help in the final taking of Jerusalem.
God Bless,
Rose
:thumb: That's a pretty good analysis, and I thank you for that. Numerically, the Emperor's seem to line up with the heads on the Beast; additionally, Vespasian being number 8 can fit because he was the one in charge who ordered his two sons to return to Israel and end the rebellion. Another important note is that Daniels speaks of the 11th horn that uprooted three (Glabo, Otho, and Vitellius), and who also has the eyes of a man. Vespasian was known as an intelligent Emperor with eyes like a hawk, figuratively speaking.
Despite our differences, I'd say we have the same conclusion. My only disagreement with making Vespasian number 8 is that he doesn't seem to fit the historical figure who did everything the first Beast (Nero Empire of the five Caesars) did. At the same time, his son Titus was the one responsible for setting up the temple on Domitian's birth place as a temple dedicated to the three of them, to be worshiped as gods. Some believe that all three of them were recognized as the Trio....three gods.
Another problem is that Vespasian was not known to persecute the Christians. Domitian, on the other hand, does have some historical support of repeating the persecutions against the Christians imposed by Nero Caesar.
I myself do not count the three that were murdered in their attempt to gain the throne because this was the time of darkness for the Roman Empire; thus they had no true king, or even power. Rome would not be revived until Vespasian and his two sons defeated the rebellion in Jerusalem.
Therefore, I tend to lean towards the opinion that the first 5 had fallen (Nero being number 5), one existed (Vespasian), the 7th would reign but a short while (Titus reigned 2 3/4 years), and the 8th would repeat the persecutions committed by Nero Caesar. There are beliefs that some thought of Domitian to be Nero back from the dead. Some of the early church fathers (in later centuries) also indicated that Domitian committed the 2nd reign of horrors against the Saints. I believe St. Eusebius speaks of the cruel treatment of the Church in fear of losing his throne to a rumored Christ who was to return.
So, in my mind, here's the number of the first and second Beasts.
1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero (head wounded / Rome temporarily dies
Civial war - Rome plunged into darkness / 3 failed attempts at the Throne
6. Vespasian (one who is)
7. Titus (Reigns but a short while)
8. Domitian (2nd Beast who does everything in honor of Nero Caesar)
It's the last three that (in my opinion) form the 2nd Beast that resembled a Ram with two horns of a Lamb. These three ruled as one kingdom and advanced Rome even further, and with much speed, much like Alexander the Great, who also was recognized as a RAM. Their actions would restore Rome to its glory days, resulting in over-confidence. But by the time Domitian becomes Emperor, Christianity's hold on the Roman Empire was so strong that the temple markets declined. Emperor Trajan made it national policy not to waste so much time and money on Christians, but to deal with them on a case by case basis.
Even though we might not agree on the heads, we at least understand the importance of the first century.
Great post though.
Joe
Another problem is that Vespasian was not known to persecute the Christians. Domitian, on the other hand, does have some historical support of repeating the persecutions against the Christians imposed by Nero Caesar.
I myself do not count the three that were murdered in their attempt to gain the throne because this was the time of darkness for the Roman Empire; thus they had no true king, or even power. Rome would not be revived until Vespasian and his two sons defeated the rebellion in Jerusalem.
Therefore, I tend to lean towards the opinion that the first 5 had fallen (Nero being number 5), one existed (Vespasian), the 7th would reign but a short while (Titus reigned 2 3/4 years), and the 8th would repeat the persecutions committed by Nero Caesar. There are beliefs that some thought of Domitian to be Nero back from the dead. Some of the early church fathers (in later centuries) also indicated that Domitian committed the 2nd reign of horrors against the Saints. I believe St. Eusebius speaks of the cruel treatment of the Church in fear of losing his throne to a rumored Christ who was to return.So, in my mind, here's the number of the first and second Beasts.
1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero (head wounded / Rome temporarily dies
Civial war - Rome plunged into darkness / 3 failed attempts at the Throne
6. Vespasian (one who is)
7. Titus (Reigns but a short while)
8. Domitian (2nd Beast who does everything in honor of Nero Caesar)
It's the last three that (in my opinion) form the 2nd Beast that resembled a Ram with two horns of a Lamb. These three ruled as one kingdom and advanced Rome even further, and with much speed, much like Alexander the Great, who also was recognized as a RAM. Their actions would restore Rome to its glory days, resulting in over-confidence. But by the time Domitian becomes Emperor, Christianity's hold on the Roman Empire was so strong that the temple markets declined. Emperor Trajan made it national policy not to waste so much time and money on Christians, but to deal with them on a case by case basis.
Even though we might not agree on the heads, we at least understand the importance of the first century.
Great post though.
Joe
Hi Joe, thanks for the interesting discussion. :D
The problem I have with stretching the vision of Revelation to include Caesars who reigned after 70 AD (ie: Titus , Domitian and Trajan) is that I see the "Big picture" of Revelation wrapping up in 70 AD when the Beast with the seven heads turns on the Harlot and destroys her with fire......that happened under Vespasian's rule.
A good portion of Revelation has to do with the relationship between Rome and Jerusalem, and all that was concluded with her destruction....hence the blood of the Saints being avenged on her, using Rome as the instrument God used to mete out His judgment.
Persecution of Christians has continued on throughout the century's, not being specific to the Revelation time period of the 1st century. The vision of Revelation is the recapitulation of Gods plan of salvation through His Son ending in the judgment and divorce of His apostate wife "Israel".....and the marriage of His Son to His glorious Bride "New Jerusalem".
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
03-10-2009, 10:17 AM
Hi Joe, thanks for the interesting discussion.
No problem sister. I figured our Futurist and Historicist friends seem to have vanished (probably raptured) :lol: so why not have Preterist discussing these things with each other.....no pun intended towards the Futurist or Historicist...just being funny.
The problem I have with stretching the vision of Revelation to include Caesars who reigned after 70 AD (ie: Titus , Domitian and Trajan) is that I see the "Big picture" of Revelation wrapping up in 70 AD when the Beast with the seven heads turns on the Harlot and destroys her with fire......that happened under Vespasian's rule.
I know exactly what you mean. I had the same problem with that when I tried piecing all of this together. Then I realized that the last three heads (6,7 & 8) ruled as one single Empire....the Roman Empire AFTER the kingdom was plunged into darkness. If we examine the 70 sevens of Daniel, we find it impossible to stretch the 70 sevens to the exact time when Jerusalem was destroyed. Doing so would require a gap of about 40 years, according to the Preterist position. Then we realized that the destruction of Jerusalem was not counted towards the 70 sevens, but that they would have 70 sevens to complete the requirements, actions, or events that eventually lead up to city and temple being destroyed. In other words, the events are fulfilled within the 70 sevens that later result in the destruction of the temple and city. Revelation is the same way regarding the 6th, 7th, and 8th kings. The angel doesn't list anyting seriously important with the 6th and 7th kings, but that the 8th king does everything the king with the fatal head wound had. This doesn't mean it has to happen prior to, or on the destruction of Jerusalem. Remember, the message was sent to the seven Churches of Asia Minor, to warn them about the things that were going to take place upon them, as well as Jerusalem. They had to be given understanding of what happened to Jerusalem, why Jerusalem was being destroyed, and how this impacted their faith? I personally believe the lesson of Revelation is that the Israel of God, and its reigning Christ (Messiah) was spiritually active aside from physical rule (phyical in a sense of traditional wordly kingdoms). That is why they were told, "How happy is he that reads [aloud during assembly] and understands the words of this book....] Why happy? Because the person who understood the message, understands that waiting for Christ to come wasn't necessary because based on the things that were happening around them, His reign was quite active even though they didn't see Him personally. Such a person who understands that after reading the vision should be quite happy; not miserable or sad as we see so many Christians today because they want to witness the end of the world, or see a magnificant being flying high in the sky.
Okay, I drifted a bit....sorry. :D
Anyways, the 6th, 7th and 8th kings rule during the time period of the Harlot's destruction (all together and not separetely)....thus, the TRIO. The 10 kings of the nations joined forces with the TRIO to destroy the Harlot. However, on a separate note, during the reign of the 8th king (AFTER Jerusalem's destruction), war is made against the rider on the white horse. This is after Jerusalem's destruction. I think what causes confusion is we believe that the New Jerusalem was established immediately after the distress of those days. But that may not be entirely true.....I'm still speculating this. I believe that after the old Israel was destroyed, the times of the Gentiles were completed, but the time of testing for the Gentiles was getting started. Nero's persecution was primarily towards Christians abiding in Rome. However, Domitian's persecutions were all throughout the Roman Empire. Even during Trajan's reign were persecutions so wide-spread. So I see these persecutions as a result of the 2nd Beast (Domitian) after Jerusalem is destroyed by them.
If you read the final chapters of Revelation, I believe it shows that the remaining parts of the Beast (2nd Beast) make war against the Lamb and those who followed Him....i.e., the Churches in Asia Minor...all of this takes place after the fall of Babylon (The Destruction of Jerusalem) before it (The Beast) too is tossed into the bottomless pit. History shows that the 2nd Beast was not destroyed even after Jerusalem was destroyed. The only way to resolve these problems is to believe that the 2nd Beast was a Jewish Beast, but it's not possible to make any identification of this. That, of course, doesn't mean it's a false, or wrong idea...just difficult.
A good portion of Revelation has to do with the relationship between Rome and Jerusalem, and all that was concluded with her destruction....hence the blood of the Saints being avenged on her, using Rome as the instrument God used to mete out His judgment.
You care 100% percent correct. Most of Revelation has to do with the battle between Christ, Rome, and Jerusalem. Christ used Rome (The Beast) to destroy the Harlot (the Apostate city of Jerusalem), while encourageing the Saints (Christians of Israel and Gentile nations) to uphold their faith through the attacks of both sides (Harlot and Beast). At the same time, even the final chapters show Christians being persecuted (war against rider on the white horse) after the fall of Babylon. Why? Because the Beast continues even after the fall of Babylon. This, in my personal opinion, happens after 71 AD and continues for some time.
Persecution of Christians has continued on throughout the century's, not being specific to the Revelation time period of the 1st century. The vision of Revelation is the recapitulation of Gods plan of salvation through His Son ending in the judgment and divorce of His apostate wife "Israel".....and the marriage of His Son to His glorious Bride "New Jerusalem".
God Bless
Rose
I fully agree.
Joe
TheForgiven
03-11-2009, 02:08 PM
I'm researching the order of Emperor's you selected sister Rose, and I believe there might be some truth into your presentation. For now, let's discuss the horns.
There are some Preterist that believe the 2nd Beast is a Jewish leader, and a name is mentioned by Josephus...I don't know right off hand, but he was a pretty horrible leader for the Jews. I'll find the information for that.
What do you know of the horns?
Joe
I'm researching the order of Emperor's you selected sister Rose, and I believe there might be some truth into your presentation. For now, let's discuss the horns.
There are some Preterist that believe the 2nd Beast is a Jewish leader, and a name is mentioned by Josephus...I don't know right off hand, but he was a pretty horrible leader for the Jews. I'll find the information for that.
What do you know of the horns?
Joe
Hi Joe
I really want to dig into this with you, but right now I'm short on time so I'll get back to you as soon as time allows. :D
God Bless
Rose
I see the second Beast (False prophet) of chapter 13, that has two horns like a lamb and is coming up out of the earth (Israel) purposely portrayed as a lamb in contrast to "the Lamb of God", so as to leave no doubt that this False prophet is Jewish. I don't see the two horns as representing individual rulers, but merely part of the symbolic picture of the Jewish sacrificial religious system.
The False prophet could be one individual, but I view it more as epitomizing the apostate Jewish religious system, that ultimately ends up being the abomination that desecrates the Temple prior to its destruction.
After the Temples destruction the practice of Judaism took a whole different turn....there was no more Temple, and no more sacrifices, that is why I see any power or influence that the apostate Jewish priesthood (second Beast) held prior to the Temples destruction, no longer existing after the Temple was gone.
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
03-12-2009, 06:16 PM
I see the second Beast (False prophet) of chapter 13, that has two horns like a lamb and is coming up out of the earth (Israel) purposely portrayed as a lamb in contrast to "the Lamb of God", so as to leave no doubt that this False prophet is Jewish. I don't see the two horns as representing individual rulers, but merely part of the symbolic picture of the Jewish sacrificial religious system.
The False prophet could be one individual, but I view it more as epitomizing the apostate Jewish religious system, that ultimately ends up being the abomination that desecrates the Temple prior to its destruction.
After the Temples destruction the practice of Judaism took a whole different turn....there was no more Temple, and no more sacrifices, that is why I see any power or influence that the apostate Jewish priesthood (second Beast) held prior to the Temples destruction, no longer existing after the Temple was gone.
God Bless
Rose
Interesting sister Rose. You might be right about the 2nd Beast being of Jewish origin. I came to the conclusion a few times myself, but have drifted back and forth with either the 2nd Beast being Roman Leaders (Emperors), primarily because of their loyalty to the 1st Beast (Roman Empire under the Caesars). The 1st Beast (Roman Empire under the 5 Caesars) rises out of the sea [of nations]. This much we both agree on. The 2nd Beast rises out of the earth.....I tend to take this is a monster born on dry ground, rather than the sea. This can either mean that a monster designed to abide in the sea, was given birth while on conquered land....thus the trio, or Triad monster that looks like a lamb, having two horns of a ram.
This same type of picture was used to describe Alexander the Great (The rushing He Goat) that slammed hard into a Ram (Persian Empire). One of the He Goats horns was broken off, and three more grew in its place, indicating the triple division of Alexander's vast Empire. I view the 2nd Beast Ram as the Roman Empire, and it's two young leaders (Titus and Domitian) who all came to power by their victory over the Harlot whom they burned. Remember it's the 2nd Beast and the kings of the earth (10 horns) that turn against the Harlot to destroy her. This concludes my studies regarding this interpretation of the 2nd Beast. I do not believe I could take these ideas any further.
Now I will consider the 2nd Beast rising out of the earth (Israel). It's quite possible that this 2nd Beast is indeed Jewish....or rather a false Jew. What are the attributes of the 2nd Beast.
1. Causes everyone to receive a figurative mark and honor the 1st Beast.
2. Hates the Harlot and burns her with fire
3. Does not permit anyone to participate economically unless they accept the mark.
4. Is considered Nero back from the dead (assuming we consider the 8th king, counted as part of the 7, to be the same as the Ram with 2 horns)
This is where I tend to get a little confused. Are the 2nd Beast, the 8th king who was to come, and the Ram with two horns all the same? Or are these separate entities?
Any suggestions?
Joe
Interesting sister Rose. You might be right about the 2nd Beast being of Jewish origin. I came to the conclusion a few times myself, but have drifted back and forth with either the 2nd Beast being Roman Leaders (Emperors), primarily because of their loyalty to the 1st Beast (Roman Empire under the Caesars). The 1st Beast (Roman Empire under the 5 Caesars) rises out of the sea [of nations]. This much we both agree on. The 2nd Beast rises out of the earth.....I tend to take this is a monster born on dry ground, rather than the sea. This can either mean that a monster designed to abide in the sea, was given birth while on conquered land....thus the trio, or Triad monster that looks like a lamb, having two horns of a ram.
This same type of picture was used to describe Alexander the Great (The rushing He Goat) that slammed hard into a Ram (Persian Empire). One of the He Goats horns was broken off, and three more grew in its place, indicating the triple division of Alexander's vast Empire. I view the 2nd Beast Ram as the Roman Empire, and it's two young leaders (Titus and Domitian) who all came to power by their victory over the Harlot whom they burned. Remember it's the 2nd Beast and the kings of the earth (10 horns) that turn against the Harlot to destroy her. This concludes my studies regarding this interpretation of the 2nd Beast. I do not believe I could take these ideas any further.
Now I will consider the 2nd Beast rising out of the earth (Israel). It's quite possible that this 2nd Beast is indeed Jewish....or rather a false Jew. What are the attributes of the 2nd Beast.
1. Causes everyone to receive a figurative mark and honor the 1st Beast.
2. Hates the Harlot and burns her with fire
3. Does not permit anyone to participate economically unless they accept the mark.
4. Is considered Nero back from the dead (assuming we consider the 8th king, counted as part of the 7, to be the same as the Ram with 2 horns)
This is where I tend to get a little confused. Are the 2nd Beast, the 8th king who was to come, and the Ram with two horns all the same? Or are these separate entities?
Any suggestions?
Joe
1. Causes everyone to receive a figurative mark and honor the 1st Beast. Correct....it is the 2nd Beast (lamb with 2 horns) who causes everyone to receive the mark.
2. Hates the Harlot and burns her with fire....As I see it only the 1st Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns which are the 10 kings, turn on the Harlot and burn her with fire to fulfill the will of God.
3. Does not permit anyone to participate economically unless they accept the mark. Correct, this is the 2nd Beast (lamb with 2 horns).
4. Is considered Nero back from the dead (assuming we consider the 8th king, counted as part of the 7, to be the same as the Ram with 2 horns)....This is the 1st Beast, he is the one who has one of his 7 heads mortally wounded.
The second Beast is the lamb with two horns, and is called the "false prophet".
The 8th king who was to come and part of the 7th is part of the entity called the 1st Beast who symbolizes Rome....this is the Beast upon whom the Harlot rides.
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
03-13-2009, 04:30 PM
The second Beast is the lamb with two horns, and is called the "false prophet".
The 8th king who was to come and part of the 7th is part of the entity called the 1st Beast who symbolizes Rome....this is the Beast upon whom the Harlot rides.
God Bless
Rose
I'd say you are correct, or at least on the way to being fully correct. I read chapters 13 - 18 and I tried to piece it all together. I haven't finished it, but I did notice a few important things.
It appears the 7 headed Beast reigns together with the 2nd Beast (Lamb with two horns). In fact, the 8 King counted among the 7 all occur at the same time. I noticed your connect with the 2nd Beast, how it was labeled as the "False Profit", thereby validating the point that the 2nd Beast is indeed Jewish.
It is here that I plan on studying this very closely.
Chapter 16-17 speaks of the great river Euphrates being dried up to prepare the kings of the East. I think this is the time frame when Titus was at the Euphrates river, and sent orders to the Southern Kingdoms to meet them head-on towards Jerusalem. The 10 horns worked together with the Beast to bring the Harlot's judgment in accordance to God's plan.
John is shown a vision of this Harlot dressed in Scarlet (Old Testament colors of the Jewish Priest's) and John is astonished. The angel tells him, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the woman who sits on many waters....notice also the woman sits on the 7 headed Beast. And again, the waters are people's, multitudes, nations, and languages. Additionally, the woman (Harlot) that sits on many waters is also recognized as the "Great city". But wait! That's not all. I noticed how this woman who sits on many waters is recognized as the "Mountains, Hills, and islands" that sit in the middle of the sea; all of the hills, mountains, and islands were taken away. This is a perfect picture of the entire government (hills) and cities (islands) of Israel being destroyed.
The destruction of Jerusalem began on the outskirts of Israel. Nearly every city was left in total destruction. Thousands of people were killed, and all the homes were ravaged. Whey they finally reached Jerusalem, this would be the last stand for the Jews.
This fulfilled the wrath of the lamb through the bowls of wrath. When the bowls of wrath were complete, thus completes God's judgment upon the Harlot, the Great City, the woman who sits on many waters, the islands, the hills, and the mountains.....all of this represents Israel of the flesh, or geographical Israel. The worst of all these is the destruction of the GREAT CITY....that is, Jerusalem of the flesh that held the temple of God.
I think it all makes perfect sense now. The only think left for me to do is to look further at the 2nd Beast and see how this fits with Israel of the flesh, or the false prophet. I've got my sights aimed at a few Jewish figures that were cruel governors.
Joe
TheForgiven
03-15-2009, 10:22 AM
What do you know of Simon the Magician? There are ancient writings (whether fake or not) that speaks of Simon the Magician as declaring himself to be the Son of God. This account explains how he convinced Nero Caesar that He was the Son of God, and he used demons to help him perform his levitations, and other magical tricks.
The account is popular as telling the story of the confrontation St. Peter and Simon had to prove if Simon was the Son of God.
What do you think?
Joe
TheForgiven
03-20-2009, 09:52 AM
I read a web-page that addressed some of the writings by the early church; or at least claimed as part of the early church. One such writing is the Apocalypse of Peter, which I now believe to be fraudulent. In this writing, the plot of the story seems to be about the contest between Peter and Simon the Magician. Simon (as recorded in the book of Acts) claims to be the "Great Power of God". In some places of the document, Simon claims to be the Son of God. A contest was created between Peter and Simon, in front of Nero Caesar and the Pharisee's, who were convinced that Simon the Magician was the Son of God. The first contest involved reading the mind of Simon. The Simon was whispered something in his ear, and Peter was told to reveal what Simon was told. Peter claps his hands, says a prayer, and breaks bread. The discussion was about the Lord's Supper, as supposedly revealed to Peter by the Holy Spirit. The next contest involved Simons claim that he could rise from the dead. After staging a fake death, and blood from a lamb, Simon pretends to be back from the dead after being dead for three days. The town’s people were astonished at this Hokes, but Peter knew better. Simon proves one last time that he was the great power of God by levitating himself in the air, but this was accomplished through the help of invisible demons who were carrying him in the air. Peter prays to God in the name of Jesus, and the demons departed while still holding Simon in the air. Simon, without the help of the demons, falls some 20+ feet, resulting in both legs being broken. Nero Caesar becomes furious at this Hokes and ordered that he be executed immediately, although a few within the crowd took him to a distant town/city where it's thought that he eventually recovered.
The story then concludes with the execution of Peter upside down on the cross, per his choice. Peter used this symbol to spiritualize the birth of man facing head down. The crucifixion in this manner also depicted mans way of thinking, that everything is always upside down. Lastly, this position was chosen because Peter did not feel worthy to be crucified in the manner in which the Lord was crucified, so he chose to be crucified upside down. As he's dying, Peter preaches one last time. After his death, the document claims that he was supposedly buried in the Vatican some years later, after his bones were removed from the grave in a nearby town, and transferred to a huge Church that was later destroyed during the Ottoman invasion. Legend has it that his bones were then transferred from there to the Vatican.
I myself believe the Apocalypse of Peter to be a Gnostic writing. Or it may have been a document containing verbal stories passed down from one generation to the next.
In any case, because the writing is thought to be fraudulent, the theory that Simon the Magician claiming to be the Son of God is false. Therefore, I was NOT correct to assume that Simon could be the 2nd Beast, or the false profit.
Ladies and Gentlemen, it's been a great pleasure discussing these things with you all. I have learned a great deal, while at the same time, I've learned to be wrong, and to admit when I'm wrong. Some mock this approach in the study of scriptures, as though the interpretation of scripture is based on divine intervention alone, or a spiritual whisper within the mind. As someone who once attended the First United Pentecostal Church (UPC), I thought like that in the past. But years of devotion, research, and study has proved me otherwise. Studying God’s worse requires patients, and not all answers come to you suddenly, but only through searching for the truth, which was embodied in fleshly form. To Him who was born for our salvation, and raised for our justification, be glory and power, forever and ever.
Amen!
Brother Richard, and Sister Rose....It's been a great pleasure of mind to discuss these things with you. I pray that the two of you are blessed beyond imagination, and that God will take care of your needs, and satisfy your wants which (I hope) are based solely on His will. One day, I hope to meet you, if the Lord is willing.
God bless you all, and have a wonderful relationship in the Lord Jesus.
So long my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. :yo:
Joseph
Brother Richard, and Sister Rose....It's been a great pleasure of mind to discuss these things with you. I pray that the two of you are blessed beyond imagination, and that God will take care of your needs, and satisfy your wants which (I hope) are based solely on His will. One day, I hope to meet you, if the Lord is willing.
God bless you all, and have a wonderful relationship in the Lord Jesus.
So long my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. :yo:
Joseph
Thank you brother Joe for your blessings, Richard and I would love to meet you some day....we would have many interesting things to talk about. :D
Your closing line sounds a bit final.....are you leaving for awhile?
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
03-20-2009, 08:22 PM
Hello Sister Rose. No, Joe's not going anywhere...just taking a little vacation, so to speak. :lol: It appears everyone else has, so I figured I might as well breath for a little while.
Man, I was watching a video, and check out this comparison. I never noticed this before, although I knew the general idea regarding the Mark.
Many Dispensational believers interpret the Mark (666) to be a literal mark on the hands, or foreheads of those who follow the Beast.
Let me show you something.....notice the colored sentences.
Revelation 13
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 14:
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Gee, I suppose since chapter 14 lines up right after verse 18, then the 144,000 sealed that follow the lamb will have the name of Jesus stamped on their foreheads. How is it that Futurist miss this? They wrongly believe that the mark of the beast will literally be stamped on the forehead (or hand) of the non-believers, yet how do they interpret the name of Christ being marked on the heads of the 144,000 sealed?
Seems to me that Revelation 14 gives us the meaning of the mark in chapter 13.
What do you think?
Joe
Revelation 13
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 14:
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Gee, I suppose since chapter 14 lines up right after verse 18, then the 144,000 sealed that follow the lamb will have the name of Jesus stamped on their foreheads. How is it that Futurist miss this? They wrongly believe that the mark of the beast will literally be stamped on the forehead (or hand) of the non-believers, yet how do they interpret the name of Christ being marked on the heads of the 144,000 sealed?
Seems to me that Revelation 14 gives us the meaning of the mark in chapter 13.
What do you think?
Joe
Good connections Joe :applause:.....also notice in Rev.7 where it tells us that the seal of God is in their foreheads, so from that we know that the Name written in their foreheads in chapter 14, and the Seal in their foreheads in chapter 7 are one and the same.
Rev.7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Another interesting thing to note is that the Greek word for 'Mark' in chapter 13 is [charagma], and it means something that is graven like a coin with the graven image of a figure on it.....whereas a different kind of 'Mark' was seen in chapter 7, it was called a 'Seal', [sphragis] and was given to the 144, 000 of the twelve tribes. A good example of that kind of seal is in:
Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed [sphragis] with that holy Spirit of promise.
In Exo.13:9 it says 'And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thy hand, and for a memorial between thy eyes, that the Lords law may be in thy mouth:' this mark, better described as a 'Seal' that is not a literal mark, but is symbolic of God’s Word, so the Jews would always be in remembrance of Gods Word in thought and deed.
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
03-22-2009, 02:55 PM
In Exo.13:9 it says 'And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thy hand, and for a memorial between thy eyes, that the Lords law may be in thy mouth:' this mark, better described as a 'Seal' that is not a literal mark, but is symbolic of God’s Word, so the Jews would always be in remembrance of Gods Word in thought and deed.
God Bless
Rose
Great post sister Rose. Exodus 13:9 demonstrates the understanding of those who are "marked" as His children; that is, those who perform good works (deeds) of the Lord (hands), and those who's every thought is in pleasing the Lord (Forehead / Between the eyes).
Revelation contrasts those who bare the mark of the Beast, to those who bear the Mark of God.
If only the Futurist and the Historicist could understand this simple thing.
Joe
TheForgiven
03-24-2009, 04:39 PM
Brother Richard and Sister Rose. I will continue to post here, but for now, it looks pretty silent. I'm trying a new board which I hope will not ban me from posting.
If you're interested in joining, here's a direct link:
http://www.prophecytalk.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=s1jpq8mdoknmjermh0adb5jk86&board=9.0
I've kept my same User ID so all can recognize me....as you can see, I never hide myself from others. :o)
Joe
Victor
03-24-2009, 05:15 PM
Revelation 13
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[f] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
Revelation 14:
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Gee, I suppose since chapter 14 lines up right after verse 18, then the 144,000 sealed that follow the lamb will have the name of Jesus stamped on their foreheads. How is it that Futurist miss this? They wrongly believe that the mark of the beast will literally be stamped on the forehead (or hand) of the non-believers, yet how do they interpret the name of Christ being marked on the heads of the 144,000 sealed?
Seems to me that Revelation 14 gives us the meaning of the mark in chapter 13.
What do you think?
Joe
Hey Joe,
That is a simple and powerful argument. If nobody expects the mark on the foreheads of the 144k to be literal, why should we expect otherwise in the case of another mark on the forehead mentioned in the immediate context? It seems as the chapter break serves as an excuse for not seeing the obvious. The two marks are contrasted in the same breath.
Interestingly, if the mark of the beast is linked to its number, which is 666, the mark of the Lord on the foreheads of His people reminds that the numerical value of the name Jesus is 888! While those subject to the beast are stuck to the "6" (man and beast were created in the 6th day), those who recieve God's Grace are marked by the "8" that relates to newness of life.
Hey Joe,
That is a simple and powerful argument. If nobody expects the mark on the foreheads of the 144k to be literal, why should we expect otherwise in the case of another mark on the forehead mentioned in the immediate context? It seems as the chapter break serves as an excuse for not seeing the obvious. The two marks are contrasted in the same breath.
Interestingly, if the mark of the beast is linked to its number, which is 666, the mark of the Lord on the foreheads of His people reminds that the numerical value of the name Jesus is 888! While those subject to the beast are stuck to the "6" (man and beast were created in the 6th day), those who recieve God's Grace are marked by the "8" that relates to newness of life.
Excellent point victor, :thumb:
God Bless
Rose
TheForgiven
04-04-2009, 07:35 PM
Greetings everyone! :attention: Sorry for not posting in a while. I've been posting on the Prophesy website. All I can say is that there are lot of Futurist theories floating on that site. If only some of them could stop counting numbers, and just read the text, and try to make the connections with the other prophesies, while distinguishing between the figurative from the literal.
Speaking of connections, lets take a look at this one.
Revelation 19:
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
This is prior to the start of the Millennium. Now compare Revelation 19 with the next selection AFTER the Millennium:
Revelation 21:
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...........
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
I find it quite interesting to note that prior to the Millennium, there was the wedding supper of the lamb, and the Marriage of the lamb had come. Then AFTER the Millennium, we see again that the Bride comes down adorned for her husband.
So what are we talking about folks? Are we to assume that the marriage, or wedding supper of the Lamb took several thousand years? Was the wedding banquet several thousand years long? If so, then that is the longest wedding banquet in history.
I would propose that the Millennium (or thousand years) is not literal, but an alternate expression of Peter's "Day of the Lord".
What say you all?
Joseph
P.S. It was great talking with you brother Richard. Hearing your voice was awesome!
Greetings everyone! :attention: Sorry for not posting in a while. I've been posting on the Prophesy website. All I can say is that there are lot of Futurist theories floating on that site. If only some of them could stop counting numbers, and just read the text, and try to make the connections with the other prophesies, while distinguishing between the figurative from the literal.
Speaking of connections, lets take a look at this one.
Revelation 19:
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, 'Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.' 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
This is prior to the start of the Millennium. Now compare Revelation 19 with the next selection AFTER the Millennium:
Revelation 21:
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband...........
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, 'Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.' 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
I find it quite interesting to note that prior to the Millennium, there was the wedding supper of the lamb, and the Marriage of the lamb had come. Then AFTER the Millennium, we see again that the Bride comes down adorned for her husband.
So what are we talking about folks? Are we to assume that the marriage, or wedding supper of the Lamb took several thousand years? Was the wedding banquet several thousand years long? If so, then that is the longest wedding banquet in history.
I would propose that the Millennium (or thousand years) is not literal, but an alternate expression of Peter's "Day of the Lord".
What say you all?
Joseph
P.S. It was great talking with you brother Richard. Hearing your voice was awesome!
Hi Joe, :yo:
Glad your back...I checked out some of your posts over on "prophecytalk", you were holding your own very well. :thumb: I would have jumped in but didn't have the time.
Now to answer your question about the Millennium (thousand years) being the same as the "Day of the Lord" that Peter speaks of.......I think you are absolutely right!
There is only one Judgment Day, and one Day of the Lord.....everywhere in Scripture that it speaks of the coming Day of the Lord, whether it be in Acts, or in Peters Epistles, or Revelation, it is all speaking of the same Day. Jesus prophesied that day would come when the stones of the Temple came down! And it did.
God Bless
Rose
P.S.
Richard called me on the phone today and said: guess who I talked with...The Forgiven, and we had a wonderful conversation :D. Richard was very pleased that you called Joe, and I'm sure you found out HE LOVES TO TALK :lol:
TheForgiven
04-04-2009, 08:27 PM
P.S.
Richard called me on the phone today and said: guess who I talked with...The Forgiven, and we had a wonderful conversation . Richard was very pleased that you called Joe, and I'm sure you found out HE LOVES TO TALK
:lol: Yes he does..but I found it quite refreshing. I could sense the zeal and excitement he had in talking with a fellow Preterist. I'm in a small town that is filled with the Futurist doctrine. There is only one Church that teaches Preterism, and they are the Church of Christ non-denominational Church. However, because they view musical instruments as evil, I choose not to assemble with them. This does not mean that I reject them, but I choose not to participate in this kind of teaching (musical instruments).
Anyways, I believe the thousand years may have been an alternate rendering of "The Day of the Lord". John was probably using Peter's comment, or it may have been Peter using John's comment. What makes me believe that John's Millennium was an expression for "The Day of the Lord" is because of the wedding Banquet being prior to the Millennium, and the wedding completed after the Millennium. That's one lengthy wedding.
God bless you guys.....thanks for talking with me Richard. Call me anytime.
Joseph
Brother Les
04-09-2009, 12:40 PM
Joe Posted
There is only one Church that teaches Preterism, and they are the Church of Christ non-denominational Church. However, because they view musical instruments as evil, I choose not to assemble with them. This does not mean that I reject them, but I choose not to participate in this kind of teaching (musical instruments).
sounds like the Church I grew up in (coC). acupella... It is not so bad after you get used to it....
Blessings
Brother Les
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