What is Heaven?

[gregoryfl]

I know this may open up another can of worms, but I have thought often of what heaven is like. This may sound way out in left field, but could it be that the reality of heaven is simply God, and us in him, rather than some place that is waay out there beyond outer space? In other words, for example, that famous verse which speaks of seeing "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" might actually not be speaking about a location in the sky at all, but about his revelation in us, in God?

Heaven=spiritual dimension and reality, where we are now hidden with Christ in God, who is ultimate reality, heaven himself.

Earth=physical shadow, where our bodies of flesh are now, a shadow seed casing that contains the reality of heaven within us.

Any thoughts?

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I know this may open up another can of worms, but I have thought often of what heaven is like. This may sound way out in left field, but could it be that the reality of heaven is simply God, and us in him, rather than some place that is waay out there beyond outer space? In other words, for example, that famous verse which speaks of seeing "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" might actually not be speaking about a location in the sky at all, but about his revelation in us, in God?

Heaven=spiritual dimension and reality, where we are now hidden with Christ in God, who is ultimate reality, heaven himself.

Earth=physical shadow, where our bodies of flesh are now, a shadow seed casing that contains the reality of heaven within us.

Any thoughts?

Ron
Hi Ron,

I think that is pretty close to the truth. As you noted, Paul taught that we are currently "seated with Christ in the heavenlies" as a present reality. So it may be that the best and most accurate understanding of "heaven" in the Bible (when used as a description of the "place" of God) is a higher (or deeper or more fundamental or more "real") connection with Reality (capital R).

This seems to fit very well with the Biblical teaching which states that the physical world is always in the process of "passing away" while the spiritual world is always "present" and "eternal" and indeed, it is the root souce of all Reality (which is grounded in God, of course):

KJV Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The "things which do appear" refers to the visible physical world and the "Word of God" is the source of this visible reality that is itself not seen. The more I look, the more I see this teaching throughout Scripture:

Matthew 6:19-21 19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
"Heaven" is a place of "incorruption" and by implication, "permanence" and "eternality" whereas the "earth" is visible and corruptible and impermanent. This then coheres with Paul's teaching on the nature of the resurrected body:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
It appears that "heaven" describes a relationship with God, that is, Ultimate Reality.

Thank you for introducing this very interesting topic.

Richard

[joel]

Such an interesting "symbol"......"can of worms".

I suppose that if we look long enough we can see "heaven" in everything......maybe even in a can of worms.

But what about "glory"?

Jesus had a glory, given to Him of the Father, before the creation.....and...it was hidden from view to a certain extent,.......even though John said.....and we beheld His glory......but certainly not in its fullness.

Hidden attributes of God are seen in the things that He has made,.......if you are given the eyes to see them......but we will see Him, face to face.

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Hidden attributes of God are seen in the things that He has made,.......if you are given the eyes to see them......but we will see Him, face to face.

Joel

I think I understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that in order to see him face to face, he has to be outside of us, separate from us where he is spatially close, yet separate, in order for this to be true?

Thanks,

Ron

[joel]

Are you saying that in order to see him face to face, he has to be outside of us, separate from us where he is spatially close, yet separate, in order for this to be true?


Yes.

He came in the likeness of sin's flesh. His glory came forth as "grace and truth".

When He took it (that body that hung on the tree) into the grave, He came out with a new body, but not yet radiating the glory that He now displays. It had the spear's incision, and the nail marks, but, His body did not show the dazzling brightness that was seen on the Mount of Transfiguration. He had not yet ascended into the heavenly realm.

When Saul of Tarsus was knocked from his horse on the way to Damascus, the presence of Jesus was so bright that Saul was blinded temporarily.

The glory He now displays is representative of the power and authority He has to subdue all things unto Himself. He will change our bodies to be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phillipian 3:21). We will share in His glory.

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Yes.

He came in the likeness of sin's flesh. His glory came forth as "grace and truth".

When He took it (that body that hung on the tree) into the grave, He came out with a new body, but not yet radiating the glory that He now displays. It had the spear's incision, and the nail marks, but, His body did not show the dazzling brightness that was seen on the Mount of Transfiguration. He had not yet ascended into the heavenly realm.

When Saul of Tarsus was knocked from his horse on the way to Damascus, the presence of Jesus was so bright that Saul was blinded temporarily.

The glory He now displays is representative of the power and authority He has to subdue all things unto Himself. He will change our bodies to be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phillipian 3:21). We will share in His glory.

Joel

Joel,

Then you must reject what I have shared as false.

Ron

[joel]

Joel,

Then you must reject what I have shared as false.

Ron

Not at all, my fellow truth laboring friend,

I think I understand what you saying, and, I see it from two different aspects.

1.) I interpret your views as stated as applicable to what is happening at the present time, in the spiritual realm, hidden from view to the natural eye.

At present, we are being formed inwardly (like the metamorphosis of the butterfly inside the cocoon). This is a transformation process that has "glory" connected with it,......but glory that is occurring out of view. II Cor. 3:18.

Where do we disagree?
2.) There is a process that will be revealed which will affect our frames.....fashioning our bodies "like unto His glorious body. Phil. 3:21

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Where do we disagree?
2.) There is a process that will be revealed which will affect our frames.....fashioning our bodies "like unto His glorious body. Phil. 3:21

Joel
Believe it or not, I do believe very much in what Paul wrote here. Perhaps how this takes place is where we differ, or maybe not so much, who knows? But I look forward to that time when I shed this old tent and am clothed with immortality and glory, able to see the Lord as he is, in that spiritual dimension of reality, where the shadows disappear.

Ron

[Rose]

Matt. 6:9-10 'After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.'


Matt. 6:18-21 'That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.'


What these verses are speaking to me is that Jesus is telling the Disciples, an henceforth us….to pray that the Kingdom of Heaven will be manifest here in us on earth. Then Jesus goes on to say that we are to pray for these things in secret and then we will be rewarded openly. We are to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, for where our treasure is there will be our heart.

Our hearts are within us so that is where our heavenly treasure is..….within us. That is where Gods will is done, and that is where God’s Kingdom on earth is….within us.



God Bless,


Rose

[gregoryfl]

Richard and Rose,

Thank you both for sharing more on that spiritual facet of heaven. I purposely left out really going into scriptural detail so that those like yourselves could add corroboration and testimony to it. How hard to wrap our mind around the truth and reality of what Jesus said:

Joh 17:21-22 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me. The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

I will not elaborate on his words, but let the spirit and power with which they were spoken sink deep into the richness of our soil, where the seed of life is, where God dwells, where we dwell. Truly in two dimensions we live even now--earth and heaven, physical and spiritual, shadow and reality.

Praise be He who brings all back into Himself, out of Whom all things came! Rom 11:36

Ron

[Rose]

Richard and Rose,

Thank you both for sharing more on that spiritual facet of heaven. I purposely left out really going into scriptural detail so that those like yourselves could add corroboration and testimony to it. How hard to wrap our mind around the truth and reality of what Jesus said:

Joh 17:21-22 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me. The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

I will not elaborate on his words, but let the spirit and power with which they were spoken sink deep into the richness of our soil, where the seed of life is, where God dwells, where we dwell. Truly in two dimensions we live even now--earth and heaven, physical and spiritual, shadow and reality.

Praise be He who brings all back into Himself, out of Whom all things came! Rom 11:36

Ron

When we add the third dimension, it is that connection we have with God called communion.

That is the oneness that Jesus is speaking of.

God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Not at all, my fellow truth laboring friend,

I think I understand what you saying, and, I see it from two different aspects.

1.) I interpret your views as stated as applicable to what is happening at the present time, in the spiritual realm, hidden from view to the natural eye.

At present, we are being formed inwardly (like the metamorphosis of the butterfly inside the cocoon). This is a transformation process that has "glory" connected with it,......but glory that is occurring out of view. II Cor. 3:18.

Where do we disagree?
2.) There is a process that will be revealed which will affect our frames.....fashioning our bodies "like unto His glorious body. Phil. 3:21

Joel
I think the disagreement is about the meaning of the "spiritual realm" and the "kingdom of heaven." In my view, these terms refer to the Ultimate Reality. The carnal world in which we live is rather like a tiny dark shadow image of the the Ultimate Reality. We will indeed see Christ "face to face" in the Kingdom of Heaven, but there is no reason to expect a manifestation of the Ultimate Reality in the carnal world which is like a tiny dot embedded in the infinitely vaster realm of Ultimate Reality. C. S. Lewis used this idea as the basis of his book called "The Great Divorce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce)." Here is a brief description from Wikipedia:

In The Great Divorce, the narrator suddenly, and inexplicably, finds himself in a grim and joyless city (the "grey town", representative of hell). He eventually finds a bus for those who desire an excursion to some other place (and which eventually turns out to be the foothills of heaven). He enters the bus and converses with his fellow passengers as they travel. When the bus reaches its destination, the "people" on the bus — including the narrator — gradually realize that they are ghosts. Although the country is the most beautiful they have ever seen, every feature of the landscape (including streams of water and blades of grass) is unbearably solid compared to themselves: it causes them immense pain to walk on the grass, and even a single leaf is far too heavy for any of them to lift.

Shining figures, men and women whom they have known on earth, come to meet them, and to persuade them to repent and enter heaven proper. They promise that as the ghosts travel onward and upward, they will become acclimated to the country and will feel no discomfort. These figures, called "spirits" to distinguish them from the ghosts, offer to assist them in the journey toward the mountains and the sunrise.

Almost all of the ghosts choose to return instead to the grey town, giving various reasons and excuses. Much of the interest of the book lies in the recognition it awakens of the plausibility and familiarity, along with the thinness and self-deception, of the excuses that the ghosts refuse to abandon, even though to do so would bring them to "reality" and "joy forevermore".

The narrator discovers that the vast grey town and its ghostly inhabitants are minuscule to the point of being invisible compared with the immensity of heaven and reality. This is illustrated in the encounter of the blessed woman and her husband: she is surrounded by gleaming attendants while he shrinks down to invisibility as he uses a collared tragedian to speak for him.
This is what Paul was talking about when he spoke of our "glorified bodies." He never said that we would be manifested down here in the carnal realm in glorfied bodies. He said we would be clothed upon in heaven:

2 Cor 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Our glorified bodies will reside in "heaven" not on earth.

Richard

[joel]

Our glorified bodies will reside in "heaven" not on earth.


Amen......a celestial body for a celestial realm.

Meanwhile, while we wait for that eventuality, we reside in terrestrial bodies. Those who have been "sealed" (the seal of the Spirit within) have "heaven within" awaiting "heaven without".

What "disagreement" exists? Your response did not clarify that.......can you be more succinct?

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Our glorified bodies will reside in "heaven" not on earth.
Richard

This seems to fit perfectly with what I am speaking of. Where did Jesus say he and the Father would reside, make their home?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, 'If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Where did the Lord dwell with Israel originally? It was in the tent. This represented the Lord's fleshly body, but it also represents us as well. While it is true that he is omnipresent by means of his being spirit, the only place he is said to dwell and live today is in us! That is where his throne is, in our hearts, as the scripture says:

Act 7:49 ‘heaven is my throne,
and the earth a footstool for my feet.
What kind of house will you build me?’ says the Lord;
‘or what is the place of my rest?

Truly we are the place God is building to rule in and through.

[Bob May]

I know this may open up another can of worms, but I have thought often of what heaven is like. This may sound way out in left field, but could it be that the reality of heaven is simply God, and us in him, rather than some place that is waay out there beyond outer space? In other words, for example, that famous verse which speaks of seeing "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" might actually not be speaking about a location in the sky at all, but about his revelation in us, in God?

Heaven=spiritual dimension and reality, where we are now hidden with Christ in God, who is ultimate reality, heaven himself.

Earth=physical shadow, where our bodies of flesh are now, a shadow seed casing that contains the reality of heaven within us.

Any thoughts?
Ron

Hi Ron,
As Richard said I think you are on the right track.
Heaven is used in various ways in Scripture. It can mean merely the sky or space as in the nighttime sky with stars and moon etc.
More often it seems to be speaking of permanent planes as opposed to temporary carnal/physical planes.
There seem to be more than one level of heaven as Paul spoke about the third heaven in one place and equated it with Paradise in another.
But there is also a "Kingdom of Heaven" which I believe to be similar to the concept of the promised land.
It is a place in consciousness, Not geographical. It is a spiritual condition that we can become aware of and actually dwell there.

Jesus said "I and he Father are one". He was constantly aware of that condition (except when he called out on the cross "eli, eli lama sabachthani" or "My God My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?"). We are not. Though we may be fortunate to be blessed with this awareness from time to time.

I believe we should strive more and more to be aware of this "Kingdom of Heaven." We are there spiritualy, why not be aware of it?
After all, Jesus said "The things I do you can do also..."

This is two grinding at the mill one is left and the other taken, etc.

Who's to say whether the woman standing in front of us at the grocery store is not living in and aware of the Kindom of Heaven all around her and the guy behind us in line is not living in hell at the exact same moment.
While we, unaware of these two conditions of mind, are simply waiting patiently or impatiently for our turn to check out.


Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Amen......a celestial body for a celestial realm.

Meanwhile, while we wait for that eventuality, we reside in terrestrial bodies. Those who have been "sealed" (the seal of the Spirit within) have "heaven within" awaiting "heaven without".

What "disagreement" exists? Your response did not clarify that.......can you be more succinct?

Joel
I don't see any disagreement. Do you?

[joel]

I think the disagreement is about the meaning of the "spiritual realm" and the "kingdom of heaven." I

This is the "disagreement" to which you made reference.

I was seeking a clarification.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This is the "disagreement" to which you made reference.

I was seeking a clarification.

Joel
I was referring to this quote:



The glory He now displays is representative of the power and authority He has to subdue all things unto Himself. He will change our bodies to be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phillipian 3:21). We will share in His glory.

There may not have been any "disagreement" at all. I had the impression that you were talking about a future "fleshly" manifestation of our "glorfied bodies" and so I was adding my opinion about the heavenly nature of our glorified bodies. It seemed to me that perhaps we were not seeing "eye to eye" (or "face to face") on the meaning of this. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm not tracking with the points you are trying to make yet. I'm sure things will clear up as the conversation continues.

Richard

[gregoryfl]

Let's now take a look at the phrases "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God." Even though at first glance it appears as though they are speaking of two different things-the kingdom of heaven being a kingdom belonging to a place, while kingdom of God refers to a kingdom belonging to a person, they are actually one and the same. This can be seen by comparing something Jesus said as recorded by Matthew and Luke:

Mat 5:3 'Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luk 6:20 He lifted up his eyes to his disciples, and said,
'Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the Kingdom of God.

Why the difference? Well, Jesus, being a Jew, was speaking to Jews when he made this statement. He actually said Kingdom of Heaven. "Heaven" was one of the ways that the Jews commonly referred to God. To them, Heaven=God. Matthew, writing his gospel to Jews, keeps Jesus word's intact as he spoke them, for he knew they would understand what Jesus was saying.

Luke, on the other hand, wrote his gospel to non-Jews. For them, Kingdom of Heaven would have meant someplace somewhere, and they would have missed the whole point of what Jesus was saying. Therefore, Luke, under inspiration of the spirit of God, interprets what Jesus actually meant, and thus recorded him as saying, "Kingdom of God."

Here again, we see harmony concerning this idea that heaven isn't some place way out beyond space, where God lives, far far away from us. No, never! He is as close as he can be, for he is heaven itself, dwelling in us.

Ron

[Rose]

Here again, we see harmony concerning this idea that heaven isn't some place way out beyond space, where God lives, far far away from us. No, never! He is as close as he can be, for he is heaven itself, dwelling in us.

RonAmen to that, :thumb:

Matt. 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.......20)But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Jesus told His disciples to pray that the Kingdom of Heaven would be manifest on earth, and to lay up their treasures in Heaven because that is where their hearts would be.....sounds to me like what Jesus was saying is that the Kingdom of Heaven would be dwelling in our hearts.

God Bless,

Rose

[Bob May]

Amen to that, :thumb:

Matt. 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.......20)But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Jesus told His disciples to pray that the Kingdom of Heaven would be manifest on earth, and to lay up their treasures in Heaven because that is where their hearts would be.....sounds to me like what Jesus was saying is that the Kingdom of Heaven would be dwelling in our hearts.

God Bless,

Rose


Hi Rose and all,

It used to bother me that, as I understood it, whenever Jesus was asked about the kingdom of God, or heaven he never really described it. But he did say things that seemed to be aimed at enabling a person to recognize it if it were happening to them.
I have since come to call this 20/20 hindsight. It is as if you cannot understand Scripture until you actually experience it. Then, you cannot hope to explain it to anyone who has not experienced it themselves.

Jn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

I looked at the posts and took the main words that we all used to describe what we thought about heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven/God.

Spiritual, Reality, Relationship, Glory (light), Hidden (from the natural eye), Heavenly treasures within us.

Now, we usually think of Heaven (or hell) as a place we go when we die. I'm not sure this is Scriptural or just a cultural thing. You know, Hollywood. So lets just leave that where it lies and call it the Ultimate Reality.

So let's just take the Kingdom of Heaven and compare it with our descriptions.
The Bible is not a normal book. In my own case I studied it for years before I began noticing it had a lot more to it than met my "natural eyes." But I had begun reading it with natural eyes,..later it began to "speak" more clearly to me. I began to understand more and more of it began to "fit together."

One day I came upon one of Jesus' descriptions of the Kingdom and read it in a different light;

Mt 4:26 "And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how."

It is a very simple parable but there is a lot to it. But my point is that how the seed of the Kingdom springs up seems to be the same way that the scripture does, at least in my experience. And just maybe IS the very same thing. We sleep through most of our lives (not understanding Truth), then we rise in the "day" and there is light. But this light is not a natural light that anyone can see or agree upon. And at some point that "seed" (word) which was planted and "hidden from our natural eyes" has somehow bore fruit, yet we "knoweth not how." Something has changed in us.

That which we have "treasured" and meditated upon day and night has lead to understanding. But it is not an earthly treasure but a heavenly. (Try explaining it to someone not interested and see if they are able to understand it.)

I believe we are touching on the kingdom of heaven more than we realize. When we recieve revelation from Scripture we are also experiencing the "relationship" we have with the Father through the Anointing. It is He who speaks with us and teaches us.

I don't know about any of you, but I am nowhere near smart enough to come up with the things I have learned.

Now whether this glimse of reality will or will not lead to an awareness of an "Ultimate Reality" while we still dwell in this body, I cannot say.
But I will go with the idea that it can.
Paul went to the Third Heaven/Paradise and returned to tell about it.
I'll go with that.

Bob

[Rose]

I don't know about any of you, but I am nowhere near smart enough to come up with the things I have learned.

Now whether this glimse of reality will or will not lead to an awareness of an "Ultimate Reality" while we still dwell in this body, I cannot say.
But I will go with the idea that it can.
Paul went to the Third Heaven/Paradise and returned to tell about it.
I'll go with that.

BobI feel the same way. ;)

That is one of the big proofs that there is a God, :D because I know me :eek: and there is no way I could have gotten the many insights I have received on my own!

God Bless,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Rose and all,

It used to bother me that, as I understood it, whenever Jesus was asked about the kingdom of God, or heaven he never really described it. But he did say things that seemed to be aimed at enabling a person to recognize it if it were happening to them.

I have since come to call this 20/20 hindsight. It is as if you cannot understand Scripture until you actually experience it. Then, you cannot hope to explain it to anyone who has not experienced it themselves.

Jn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

I looked at the posts and took the main words that we all used to describe what we thought about heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven/God.

Spiritual, Reality, Relationship, Glory (light), Hidden (from the natural eye), Heavenly treasures within us.

Hi Bob,

That's an excellent insight. Jesus said that only those "born of the Spirit" could see the kingdom of heaven. And the whole NT tells us that all who believe are born of the Spirit. Therefore, we can see the Kingdom. Now. In this life - with varying degrees of clarity I would suppose. But the point is that Christ is the Door to heaven, and we have the Mind of Christ, and we are seated with Him in the heavenlies as a present reality. So maybe our blindness is do more to errors that we have been taught, and maybe we could see a lot more of "Ulitmate Reality" through the gifts of the Spirit already given.



Now, we usually think of Heaven (or hell) as a place we go when we die. I'm not sure this is Scriptural or just a cultural thing. You know, Hollywood. So lets just leave that where it lies and call it the Ultimate Reality.

Yes, let's!

Ultimate Reality is a very appealing way to understand the revelation of Christ who is the Word (Logos) of God by whom all things were made. Sounds pretty "ultimate" and "real" to me! :sunny:



So let's just take the Kingdom of Heaven and compare it with our descriptions.

The Bible is not a normal book. In my own case I studied it for years before I began noticing it had a lot more to it than met my "natural eyes." But I had begun reading it with natural eyes,..later it began to "speak" more clearly to me. I began to understand more and more of it began to "fit together."

One day I came upon one of Jesus' descriptions of the Kingdom and read it in a different light;

Mt 4:26 "And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how."

It is a very simple parable but there is a lot to it. But my point is that how the seed of the Kingdom springs up seems to be the same way that the scripture does, at least in my experience. And just maybe IS the very same thing. We sleep through most of our lives (not understanding Truth), then we rise in the "day" and there is light. But this light is not a natural light that anyone can see or agree upon. And at some point that "seed" (word) which was planted and "hidden from our natural eyes" has somehow bore fruit, yet we "knoweth not how." Something has changed in us.

That which we have "treasured" and meditated upon day and night has lead to understanding. But it is not an earthly treasure but a heavenly. (Try explaining it to someone not interested and see if they are able to understand it.)

I believe we are touching on the kingdom of heaven more than we realize. When we recieve revelation from Scripture we are also experiencing the "relationship" we have with the Father through the Anointing. It is He who speaks with us and teaches us.

I don't know about any of you, but I am nowhere near smart enough to come up with the things I have learned.

Now whether this glimse of reality will or will not lead to an awareness of an "Ultimate Reality" while we still dwell in this body, I cannot say.
But I will go with the idea that it can.
Paul went to the Third Heaven/Paradise and returned to tell about it.
I'll go with that.

Bob
Wow ..... excellent insights my friend! Right on!

This thread is on a roll ....

Richard