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TheForgiven
12-02-2008, 06:44 AM
Here is a copy of the letter written by Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan, on how to handle those accused of being Christians. Reading this letter should present a first century reality on the extreme magnitude of Christian torture, to the point that it was not a local, or territorial persecution by a few terrorists, or by some anti-relgious group as many try pointing out today. No my friends, this persecution was world wide (inhabtied earth that is), and involved the authority of nearly every Roman government, to include all nations under their jurisdiction. This was not a limitted persecution, or execution of Christians; THIS WAS THE REAL THING on the entire Roman populated and controlled, earth.


PLINY THE YOUNGER TO EMPEROR TRAJAN (last 90's AD)

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

EMPEROR TRAJAN TO PLINY THE YOUNGER

You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age..............end of document


Judging by the contect of this letter, we can see a few things were taking place:

1. Christianity threatened temple market profits
2. The Emperor demanded idol worship, particularly of himself (This was common Roman practice by the end of the first century)
3. The Christians were falling away--those that remained faithful were executed
4. AGE meant no obstacle to persecution, and/or death. Even the young were killed!
5. Trajan approves of the way Pliny handled the situation, but then down-plays it as nothing worth wasting money on. His instructions are not to seek out Christians, but to judge them accordingly as each issue is produced.

Now I ask anyone today who believes the Tribulation is yet to come. How in the world do you expect something to be larger than what happened in the first century? Keep in mind that this doesn't even scratch the surface of what took place during the days of the Apostles, nor even to the false Jews within Jersalem. With all the martrydom and execution that took place in the first century, between Christians and false Jews, how cany anyone say that the first century was not a time of GREAT DISTRESS?

I fail to see how anyone could ignore the prophesies that Christ Himself testified would happen WITHIN THEIR GENERATION, as though some future generation shall endure these things for reasons unknown.

Still not convinced my fellow futurist friends? Read the letter again, and imagine living in the first century. Then tell me honestly, which time would you prefer to live in.

Would you choose the first century, or our present day to abide in?

Joe

Rose
12-02-2008, 08:25 AM
Excellent post Joe, :thumb:

What a wake up call! :eek: It makes our problems today, especially here in America seem like a broken finger nail.

God Bless,

Rose

TheForgiven
12-03-2008, 05:37 AM
Excellent post Joe,

What a wake up call! It makes our problems today, especially here in America seem like a broken finger nail.

God Bless,

Rose

Why thank you sister. :yo:

That is exactly right. Most today look at their problems as though they were suffering some extreme persecution. Then they look at the terrorist attacks and act as though the anti-christ is coming. Some even shrugg off all the events of today and insist that it is still future.

What happened to the 1947 deal with Israel? What happened to the generation of Israel since that time? OH, and let's not forget about the mighty flag of David in 1968; hasn't that generation come and gone? I'm still awaiting "All these things (i.e. rebirth of Israel and the Fig Tree) to come to pass.....no, not really, just trying to make a point.

My fellow Futurist brothers. We have seen the dooms day teachers, and the "end of the world is near" proclaimers rise and fall for decades within my life time, and centuries within each generation. All of these failed predictions are a result of a faulty eschatology. There is no rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, as is required to fulfill the "Fig Tree" theory based on Dispensational theology. There is no regathering of all nations against Israel to bring about the final battle of Armegeddon, as taught with modern day Dispensational theology. There is still no Great Tribulation that's supposed to take place within the same generation which witnesses the rebirth of Israel (1947 / 1968), which in truth has already expired (The 40+ years has come and gone). All of these events haven't even remotely come within a microbe of coming to pass.

What shall we say then? I'll answer that with the same honest question I asked above.

If you had to choose which time frame you'd prefer to abide in, would you choose:

1) FIRST CENTURY?

or

2) OUR CENTURY?

Which time frame would you consider to be the safest?

Joe

You have now been challenged; I await your responses....after all, this is a debate isn't it? Tear down the facts that I have presented, because I'm very interested in your theories if you have something better to offer my friends. :o)

joel
12-03-2008, 12:15 PM
What shall we say then? I'll answer that with the same honest question I asked above.

If you had to choose which time frame you'd prefer to abide in, would you choose:

1) FIRST CENTURY?

or

2) OUR CENTURY?

Which time frame would you consider to be the safest?

Joe

You have now been challenged; I await your responses....after all, this is a debate isn't it? Tear down the facts that I have presented, because I'm very interested in your theories if you have something better to offer my friends. )


I am torn between two positions;

To live in the 1st Century, and be a believer, would be preferrable because the fresh truth of His appearance, and the words of truth were not corrupted with centuries of darkness, and unbelief.

However, to live in this century, so close to His return, is so invigorating because we have moved that much closer to the time our joining up with Him.

As to which is the "safest", I view the 1st Century as being much safer that this century.

Joiel

TheForgiven
12-03-2008, 06:36 PM
I am torn between two positions;

To live in the 1st Century, and be a believer, would be preferrable because the fresh truth of His appearance, and the words of truth were not corrupted with centuries of darkness, and unbelief.

However, to live in this century, so close to His return, is so invigorating because we have moved that much closer to the time our joining up with Him.

As to which is the "safest", I view the 1st Century as being much safer that this century.

Joiel

Thank you brother Joel. I appreciate your response. I can tell that you are not afraid to engage in a discussion even when you anticipate an opposition. That's because you and I are not enemies, nor are we in a battle. Like you, I'm interested in a debate to test our theories and decide for ourselves which are factual, fiction, or opinion. I do hope that you enjoy discussing these things my dear brother in Christ.

Now, regarding being "torn between the two", I know what you mean and I can relate with this position. I've always wished I could build a Time Machine and go back in time to see the Lord and the Apostles face to face.

As to your opinion on which century is the safest, I'd be interested to know why you feel our century is more dangerous than the first century? Based on the historical data that I've obtained over the years, the first century was clearly a more dangerous time than ours.

Worship in Freedom - Unlike the first century Christians, our lives are not in a constant state of threat. Most Christians, particularly in Corinth and Ephesus, had to live in under-ground catacombs. History records that one of the catacombs St. Paul may have preached in was about 60 stories down. Catacombs represented the safest place to hide during wide-spread persecution. Christians were persecuted to an extent you and I could never imagine.

When was the last time any of us have had our loins removed while being tied to a spiked bed? When was the last time you've heard of a Christian, 6 years of age, dressed in blood soaked lamb skins, and released to the wild dogs, lions, or bears to be torn apart? How many Christians do you know of today that were used as human tortes during the night hours to provide illumination for streets, cities, and Olympic type games? How many Christians are being used as slaves for the rich? How many Christians today are forced to bow down to the image of a King, Emperor, or face death for refusing to comply? How many Christians today are forced to choose between offering incense to an idol and worship other gods, or worshiping Christ? How many Christians today are dipped in hot oil, or have had their small intestines rolled on a rotating stick. On a reduced scale, how many Christians today have been imprisoned for weeks at a time until their execution finally happens? Need I say more? What about being crucified on a cross, skinned alive, dragged on hard gravel until your flesh is exposed, or any other ungodly tortures they faced on nearly a constant basis within the first century?

I could list more, but these ungodly acts are enough to convince me that the problems you and I face today are about as harmful as a broken finger nail, compared to the sufferings and persecution Christians faced in the first, and even the second centuries.

I'm interested as to why you would consider their time safer than ours?

Joe

joel
12-04-2008, 01:09 PM
Thank you brother Joel. I appreciate your response. I can tell that you are not afraid to engage in a discussion even when you anticipate an opposition. That's because you and I are not enemies, nor are we in a battle. Like you, I'm interested in a debate to test our theories and decide for ourselves which are factual, fiction, or opinion. I do hope that you enjoy discussing these things my dear brother in Christ.


I, with you, and with others, have come to cherish these moments of fellowship.

I was not looking at your question from the "safety" of our physical frames, or concerning the pain and horror of torture arising from persecution. From that perspective, you are absolutely right. What a frightful time that must have been when the enemy of spiritual truth came upon with a vengeance.

But, things then were more "black" and "white".

Today, we live in a gray world where the love of the truth does not abound.
We face a more subtle danger today as it concerns spiritual truth which is requisite for spiritual growth.

The gospel has been eroded by lack of obedience to the faith. The "outward law" has covered the earth..........men and women deem church membership as their ticket into the eternal.

What is happening today has been foretold. In spite of advanced communications.....darkness covers the people.

In accord with my view of the events lying before us.........great hardship is beyond the horizon. Granted, those events of the first century were cataclysmic.......but I don't believe we have seen anything yet.

Let me assure you, however, my dear brother Joe.........my hope is in His appearing........but I believe it to apparent only when the night approaches. WE, however, are sons of the day.....and not of the night.

Joel

TheForgiven
12-04-2008, 04:13 PM
I thank you for your kind words dear brother in Christ Jesus. I feel your sorrow, and dislike of the darkness that does seem to be so wide spread among man, particularly within the United States.

It seems with television, restaurants, and department stores, there are so many people abiding in darkness, and totally ignoring God. With all of the sin in the world, it’s very easy to think that the end must be near. And when we start thinking of “The End”, we start thinking of “The Great Tribulation”. And when we start thinking of “The Great Tribulation”, we start thinking of Christ’s return, whether pre, mid, or post Tribulation.

This discussion is about the Great Tribulation. If we can settle the theory that the Great Tribulation happened in the first century (that is what I believe), then we can also satisfy the conscious that Christ kept his promise, and returned in the first century as promised.

Let it be known that the Tribulation is thought to occur upon the entire world. In Revelation, Jesus says to one of the Churches,

“Because you have kept the faith, and have not denied my name, I will deliver you from the hour of trial that’s about to come upon the entire world (inhabited earth).

Some suppose this to be the Great Tribulation, and it probably is, but for now, let’s set Revelation aside and concentrate on the gospel of Matthew.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION

Matthew 24: 21-28 reads:

THEN there will be Great Tribulation, such has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the ELECT’S sake, those days will be shortened.

Notice the key words “Then” and “ELECT”. Many of my dispensational friends ignore the word “Then”, which is a very important time-statement. What happen prior to “Then”? The Abomination of Desolation. Daniel is shown that the Abomination occurs upon his people, the temple, and his city. That is exactly what Christ is talking about. But what started the entire discussion was the very temple they admired, of which He (Christ) stated would be brought down without a single stone left standing. “HOW?” and “WHEN?” they asked Him, and thus he begins the warnings of what to look for.

The indication that the “Desolation” of the temple and city was about to take place was when the “Abomination” was seen standing in the holy place (Israel). This was the Romans, otherwise known as the “Vultures” or “Eagles” when they began surrounding Jerusalem. Once the “Abomination” was seen, and the “Desolation begins”, thus leads the “GREAT TRIBULATION”.

The Tribulation is NOT upon the entire globe, as many propose. Matthew 28 clearly states that this Tribulation is upon the “HOLY PLACE”, that is, Israel (or the temple). Christ said,

“When you see the Abomination standing in the HOLY PLACE…….”

During those days, that was Israel and Israel alone. The other indicator which complements this fact is the Pro-Noun “ELECT”. Jesus says, “Unless those days (Great Tribulation) were not cut short, no flesh (Jewish flesh that is) would have survived. BUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT….[THE BELOVED….THE PATRIARCHS….THE CHOSEN…THE COVENANTS…AND THE PROMISES..hence THE JEWS] those days (TRIBULATION) will be cut short.

Now, I’ve shown factually that the Tribulation is to occur AFTER the Abomination occurs, leading to the Desolation of Daniel’s people, city, and temple, of which leads to the final time-frame. The darkening of the sun, the moon, and the stars, and the sign of the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. For the scripture in Matthew says, “For IMMEDIATELY after the distress of those days (TRIBULATION UPON THE ELECT), the sun will be darkened, the moon into blood……ect.

All of this is in reference to the Jerusalem of old. Jerusalem had become a city filled with blood, falling stars, death, and without light or glory. It was destroyed, and THAT was the sign that the Son of Man had come in His Kingdom, and the Church would now become the official Jerusalem of the entire world, and begin to conquer the nations for ever and ever.

In conclusion my friends, the Great Tribulation happened in the first century. The Abomination takes place, THEN leading towards the Desolation which is caused by TRIBULATION, and completed with the presence (Coming) of Christ in His Kingdom…the Church victorious over the Harlot and the Beast.

Joe