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yeshua_seven

10-26-2008, 05:15 PM

I have joined the Reformed camp and believe the teachings of Calvinism to be true.

I believe all humans are born with a sinful nature which is incapable of choosing God on their own strength. I believe that humans do not have a free-will, for they are slaves to their sinful nature. No one is good, no one in righteous, no one seeks after God, and nobody can choose to submit to God on entirely their own strength. If God remained passive, nobody would be saved but all would perish.

I believe that before the foundation of the world, God chose whom He will actively save, and whom He will passively allow to remain dead in their sins. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. Many are called, but few are chosen. The gospel is offered to all people, but only the elect will ever believe it.

I believe that faith and repentance are gifts of God, and thus nobody can sincerely repent and put their faith in God unless God enables them to. I believe that regeneration comes before repentance and faith (or simultaneously).

The sinner's prayer is unbiblical and only a recent development in history. People don't repent of their sins, then pray to Jesus, and then are born-again. Rather, the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, and only then do they repent and put their faith in Christ.

I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for whosoever will believe in Him. Only the elect will believe in Him. In one sense, Jesus Christ died for all because anybody who believes in Him will be saved. In another sense, Jesus Christ died only for the elect, because only the elect will believe in Him.

I believe in perseverance of the saints, and that all whom the Father gives to Jesus, nobody can snatch the elect out of the hand of Christ. Christ is the good shepherd who laid down His life, not for the goats, but for the sheep. His sheep hear His voice and come to Him, but the voice of strangers they run from. Salvation can't be lost, for the elect are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

In conclusion, I believe in the following:

Total Depravity
Unconditonal Election
Limited (Particular) Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

It took awhile for this truth to sink in, but I am not convinced of its faithfulness to scriptures. There are those predestined to heaven, and there are those predestined to hell. God is actively involved in the saving of the elect, but God remains passive in relation to the non-elect, allowing them to do as they please according to their sinful nature which they are bound by.

Rose

10-26-2008, 10:52 PM

Hello Yeshua_seven,

The first time I was introduced to Calvinism my reaction was one of shock :eek:. I couldn't comprehend a God who could create souls for the sole purpose of destruction without any hope of Salvation. You mentioned that salvation for the elect cannot be lost.....but what about the rest? Their salvation can never be found!

As a parent of two children I tried to imagine choosing one of my children to love and nurture, while choosing to reject the other for that reason alone. The thought was incomprehensible to me, so if I as a mere human couldn't conceive of that, how could I speak the word love and God in the same sentence.

If this is the kind of God that created the universe what possible reason could there be for me to even try to reach out and share the Gospel, the "Good News" with anyone. What kind of "Good News" is knowing that some of us are destined for destruction just because God chose to create us that way.

How can my compassion and love exceed Gods....It can't!

Rose

yeshua_seven

10-26-2008, 11:50 PM

The parent-child relationship is not the best way of thinking about it because your children love you and obey you in many ways, but sinners hate God and are living in rebellion. Sinners do not love God and have no interest in obeying Him. Also, people sin against God greatly, but your children don't sin against you and offend you the same way. God is 100% holy and pure and even a lustful thought in a man's heart is enough to deserve God's wrath. The first important thing to understand before understanding predestination is the seriousness of sin. There is nothing worse than sin, no matter what form or shape it is in.

The reason we are to share the gospel is because that is the means through which people are saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the preaching of the Word of God. God is not passive and the elect automatically believe, but God is active and people need to hear the Word. God even sends the message to the non-elect out of His mercy and grace, but because of their sinful nature, He knows they will reject it. He also knows that they can't say "I never heard" on the Day of Judgment, for they have heard, but they have rejected it and thus God is just in punishing them.

I know it is a tough teaching, and it took awhile for it to sink in for me, but I kept looking at the scriptures and I could no longer deny it.

Romans 9 is the main chapter which teaches this doctrine, although many other verses scattered through the Old and New Testaments support it as well.

========
"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (Romans 9:14-24, ESV)?

Richard Amiel McGough

10-27-2008, 08:02 AM

I have joined the Reformed camp and believe the teachings of Calvinism to be true.

Hey there yeshua_seven,

Welcome back!

:welcome:

You have brought up some very interesting and important issues. I look forward to discussing them with you.

I believe all humans are born with a sinful nature which is incapable of choosing God on their own strength. I believe that humans do not have a free-will, for they are slaves to their sinful nature. No one is good, no one in righteous, no one seeks after God, and nobody can choose to submit to God on entirely their own strength. If God remained passive, nobody would be saved but all would perish.

There are many difficulties with your position here. The first is the idea of "sin nature." That idea is not found in the Bible. The Bible teaches that we are creatures of both SPIRIT and FLESH, and these two struggle with each other, as it is written:
Galatians 5:16-18 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
The idea of "sin nature" has been added to the Bible. It has no basis in the text and it explains nothing. Adam and Eve were created perfect with no sin nature and yet they sinned. There is no reason to think that their "nature" was changed AFTER they sinned if they were capable of sinning BEFORE acquiring the new nature. We have a thread where we have discussed this at some length:

Sin Nature - the phlogiston of Christian Theology?

Another problem with your new understanding is the idea that "nobody can choose to submit to God on entirely their own strength." That idea is not taught in the Bible. On the contrary, the Bible constantly calls all creatures to choose God. The idea that we can't obey the command without God doing the "willing" is a philosophical idea imposed upon the text. I strongly doubt that any of the Apostles would have agreed with such a proposition had it been suggested to them.

I believe that before the foundation of the world, God chose whom He will actively save, and whom He will passively allow to remain dead in their sins. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. Many are called, but few are chosen. The gospel is offered to all people, but only the elect will ever believe it.

God's foreknowledge is a true mystery that no man has yet been able to even begin to articulate. It leads directly to great difficulties. For example, since God knows everything, he is more like a giant mathematical equation with absolutely no free will himself, because he already knew what he was going to choose before he chose it, so he couldn't make a choice! Thus, if God knows absolutely everything, then everything about him is "necessary" in the philosophical sense that he has absolutely no freedom of choice whatsoever. With this understanding, we see that he didn't ever "choose" the elect. My point is that the doctrine is philosophically incoherent. It works just fine if we forget about God's foreknowledge long enough to think of him just like a "limited person" who makes choices, but the moment we remember that he knows all things we realize that it is meaningless to say that he "chose" one thing over another.

Now don't get me wrong: I am not saying that God can not make choices. My point is that it is absurd for us to base a doctrine on something we obvously do not understand.

Now I agree that "Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them." And who does God "draw" unto Jesus? That is easy to answer:
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

And how does God "draw" all people?
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
God draws each person to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel. Every man that hears and learns from the Father comes to Christ.

I believe that faith and repentance are gifts of God, and thus nobody can sincerely repent and put their faith in God unless God enables them to. I believe that regeneration comes before repentance and faith (or simultaneously).

That is another doctrine that I find difficult. I agree that faith and repentence are gifts from God, but I don't believe that he withholds those gifts from some of his creatures just so he can "judge" them as sinners.

The sinner's prayer is unbiblical and only a recent development in history. People don't repent of their sins, then pray to Jesus, and then are born-again. Rather, the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect, and only then do they repent and put their faith in Christ.

Yes, the sinners' prayer is a recent invention. But the issue of "ordo salutus" (the order of salvation, regeneration before or after faith and repentence) is an old dispute. It would require a lot of discussion to discover the truth on this question.

I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for whosoever will believe in Him. Only the elect will believe in Him. In one sense, Jesus Christ died for all because anybody who believes in Him will be saved. In another sense, Jesus Christ died only for the elect, because only the elect will believe in Him.

That's the doctrine of limited atonement. It too requires much discussion.

I believe in perseverance of the saints, and that all whom the Father gives to Jesus, nobody can snatch the elect out of the hand of Christ. Christ is the good shepherd who laid down His life, not for the goats, but for the sheep. His sheep hear His voice and come to Him, but the voice of strangers they run from. Salvation can't be lost, for the elect are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

In conclusion, I believe in the following:

Total Depravity
Unconditonal Election
Limited (Particular) Atonement
Irresistable Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

It took awhile for this truth to sink in, but I am not convinced of its faithfulness to scriptures. There are those predestined to heaven, and there are those predestined to hell. God is actively involved in the saving of the elect, but God remains passive in relation to the non-elect, allowing them to do as they please according to their sinful nature which they are bound by.
God is never "passive." If he chose some to be elect, he by necessity chose others to be "non-elect" which is functionally equivalent to an active choice to elect them for damnation. There is no way out of this fundamenal implication.

In sum, the Calvinist view seems to me to be entirely "anti-gospel" in that it teaches (by implication if not explicitly) an ABSOLUTE FATALISM; there is nothing anyone can do to change their fate that was set before they were created. The fundamental implication of Calvinism seems to me to be that everyone should seek pleasure in this live to the max. There should be no concern whatsoever about sin or eternal destiny because that issue has been settled from the foundation of the world. Therefore, every person should seek whatever makes them feel good for the little while they have here, since nothing they do matters in the slightest. And it works perfectly for both the elect and the damned since the elect will still go to heaven no matter what sins they enjoy, and the damned are going to suffer forever, so they might as well get as much pleasure now as possible.

I look forward to exploring the genuine and authentic implications of the Calvinist doctrine with you more my friend,

Richard

Rose

10-27-2008, 09:07 AM

yeshua_seven

10-27-2008, 10:05 AM

Adam and Eve were in a different situation because they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan tricked them into eating and they didn't eat knowing that they were sinning. It wasn't until after they ate that they gained knowledge of good and evil and then they knew they had sinned and were naked. It wasn't therefore a matter of sinful nature at that point, it was a matter of complete innocence.

After that point, anything that people do is not done out of complete innocence. All people have knowledge of good and evil and thus choose evil due to their sinful nature. We can't fully understand the condition Adam and Eve were in before the Fall because none of us throughout history have experienced it. Adam and Eve are the only two who experienced life in that way.

Today however, we are slaves to sin. Scripture teaches:

Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin (John 8:34, ESV).

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin (Romans 6:6).

You quote scripture about the war between the flesh and the spirit, but that passage is speaking about those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. As Romans 6:6 says above, Jesus' death on the cross delivered us from that sinful nature so that we can be slaves of God rather than slaves to sin. We are still in our bodies, so we struggle with the flesh and the spirit, but that wasn't until after our spirit was regenerated.

Before the regeneration of our spirit, we are enslaved to our sinful nature, but after the regeneration of our spirit, we then enter into a new struggle between our spirit and our flesh. Unbelievers do not have the struggle between their flesh and their spirit, but only believers. Paul in the passage you quoted was speaking to believers and about believers.

I don't quite see the logic in your view on God's foreknowledge. The Bible is clear that God makes choices, despite His foreknowledge. God chose Jacob over Esau, and just because He had foreknowledge of all that, doesn't mean He didn't really choose Jacob over Esau.

"All" in the scriptures doesn't always mean every single individual, but rather people of all backgrounds (nation, tongue, tribe, etc).

"Draw" in some passages is translated from the Greek word 'helko' which means 'to draw, to drag off.' If you look at several passages which use that word, it shows people being dragged outside of their will. In the same way, God doesn't draw in the sense that we come to Him completely on our own will, but that God drags us to Himself. (John 6:44; 12:32; 18:10; 21:6; 21:11). John in his gospel uses the Greek word for God dragging people to Himself and for the disciples dragging the net full of fish out of the water and unto land. In the same way, God catches the elect in a net and drags us unto Himself. Perhaps you can study the word and how it is used throughout the whole NT for further evidence.

God is both active and passive in His dealings with the world. If God is passive then He allows us to do whatever is in our wicked hearts. If God is active, then He prevents us from doing what is in our hearts. In many of Israel's wars...God was active on their behalf in order for them to defeat the enemies, but in other cases God is passive and allows the enemies to defeat Israel. If God remains passive and doesn't intervene in our lives in any way, then nobody would be saved and the whole world would have probably been destroyed by now. God restrains evil in the world through His active role in the world. I'm using active and passive in describing God's intervening and His standing by and letting sinners do as they please. The elect are saved because God actively pursues them. The non-elect are not saved because God allows them to follow their own desires. If God were active in the non-elects damnation, then that would make God the author of sin and mean that God is actively forcing them to remain in disbelief.

If two boats are going down the river wherever the current leads them and they are heading towards a cliff, there are two things that can happen. God can actively intervene and prevent the boat from going over the cliff, or God can passively do nothing and allow the natural current of the river to carry the boat over the cliff. Same with double predestination. The elect are kept from going over the cliff (active) while the non-elect are carried by the natural flow of the river (passive).

As for your last paragraph about people just living as they please since their destinies are already determined, Paul already answered those arguments in scripture. I'm sure you are aware of those passages that teach God's grace is no license to sin and just because one is saved doesn't mean they can do whatever they want.

Peace and grace.

yeshua_seven

10-27-2008, 10:14 AM

God punished Adam when Adam has no idea that it is so bad to eat from the tree. Sure, he knew God said not to eat, but he had no idea that eating would be so bad, yet God still punished him.

Also Korah in the Bible committed a sin, yet God didn't just kill him, but God killed his whole family (including his animals) all because of the sin of the Father.

In the days of Noah, what did the animals do? God didn't just kill the humans in the flood, but He also killed most of the animals on the earth. God punished the animals for something they were innocent of.

God will also punish sinners for their sins. People are responsible for their sins. Whether they hear the gospel or not, God will punish the murderers, adultereres, alcoholics, drug addicts, prostitutes, etc because they are not without guilt. God gave people a conscience.

Richard Amiel McGough

10-27-2008, 12:57 PM

God punished Adam when Adam has no idea that it is so bad to eat from the tree. Sure, he knew God said not to eat, but he had no idea that eating would be so bad, yet God still punished him.
Hey there my friend, :yo:

I don't think that is accurate. God had spoken directly to Adam, and told him the utterly serious consequence that would follow from eating of that tree, namel, death. Nothing is worse than the death penality.

Also Korah in the Bible committed a sin, yet God didn't just kill him, but God killed his whole family (including his animals) all because of the sin of the Father.

In the days of Noah, what did the animals do? God didn't just kill the humans in the flood, but He also killed most of the animals on the earth. God punished the animals for something they were innocent of.

God will also punish sinners for their sins. People are responsible for their sins. Whether they hear the gospel or not, God will punish the murderers, adultereres, alcoholics, drug addicts, prostitutes, etc because they are not without guilt. God gave people a conscience.

The idea of "responsibilty" rests entirely on the concept of "free moral agency." But Calvinism teaches that even babies in the womb are guilt of sin and worthy of death. The "guilt" is ontological, meaning that Calvinism teaches that every son of Adam acquired a "sin nature" because of the fall. In my study of the Bible, I have found no support for the doctrine of "sin nature." It seems to me that the Bible teaches that the flesh is the primary source of sin, because the flesh that is not directed by God's Spirit can not obey God's Will. This then solves many of those difficult questions so many people have about Genesis, such as "Why did God put the tree in the garden if he knew Adam and Eve would sin?" Did he want them to sin? Calvinism goes so far as to teach that God ordained that they would sin. Few people are satisfied with such an answer. And all these questions immediately evaporate when we realize that Adam and Eve were created as fleshly creatures, and the flesh, when not directed by God's Spirit, can not obey His Will. Thus, the children of Adam are fleshly creatures born out of communion with God, and so all sin. The solution to this problem is called the "Atonement" of Christ by which God reconciled the world unto Himself. And that is the promise of the Gospel. We become free of sin when we walk according to the Spirit, as it is written:
Romans 8:1-11 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 ¶ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

It's great to be exploring these important doctrines with you my friend.

Richard

Rose

10-27-2008, 02:17 PM

.
God is both active and passive in His dealings with the world. If God is passive then He allows us to do whatever is in our wicked hearts. If God is active, then He prevents us from doing what is in our hearts. In many of Israel's wars...God was active on their behalf in order for them to defeat the enemies, but in other cases God is passive and allows the enemies to defeat Israel. If God remains passive and doesn't intervene in our lives in any way, then nobody would be saved and the whole world would have probably been destroyed by now. God restrains evil in the world through His active role in the world. I'm using active and passive in describing God's intervening and His standing by and letting sinners do as they please. The elect are saved because God actively pursues them. The non-elect are not saved because God allows them to follow their own desires. If God were active in the non-elects damnation, then that would make God the author of sin and mean that God is actively forcing them to remain in disbelief.

If two boats are going down the river wherever the current leads them and they are heading towards a cliff, there are two things that can happen. God can actively intervene and prevent the boat from going over the cliff, or God can passively do nothing and allow the natural current of the river to carry the boat over the cliff. Same with double predestination. The elect are kept from going over the cliff (active) while the non-elect are carried by the natural flow of the river (passive).

Peace and grace.

The picture the Calvinist paints of God is one of a capricious ruler who picks and chooses who lives and dies...just because he can!

What earthly father could possibly conceive of passively allowing a boat containing his children to (passively) plunge over a cliff when it was totally within his power to (actively) prevent it....just because he can, and all the while another boat also containing his children he chooses to save....just because he can.

If you ask any caring soul in their right mind what kind of father could do such a thing to their children, they would tell you that father was an evil man who had no love.

So why would anyone paint a picture like that of God????????????

Rose

gregoryfl

10-27-2008, 02:25 PM

The idea of "responsibilty" rests entirely on the concept of "free moral agency." But Calvinism teaches that even babies in the womb are guilt of sin and worthy of death. The "guilt" is ontological, meaning that Calvinism teaches that every son of Adam acquired a "sin nature" because of the fall. In my study of the Bible, I have found no support for the doctrine of "sin nature." It seems to me that the Bible teaches that the flesh is the primary source of sin, because the flesh that is not directed by God's Spirit can not obey God's Will. This then solves many of those difficult questions so many people have about Genesis, such as "Why did God put the tree in the garden if he knew Adam and Eve would sin?" Did he want them to sin? Calvinism goes so far as to teach that God ordained that they would sin. Few people are satisfied with such an answer. And all these questions immediately evaporate when we realize that Adam and Eve were created as fleshly creatures, and the flesh, when not directed by God's Spirit, can not obey His Will. Thus, the children of Adam are fleshly creatures born out of communion with God, and so all sin. The solution to this problem is called the "Atonement" of Christ by which God reconciled the world unto Himself. And that is the promise of the Gospel. We become free of sin when we walk according to the Spirit, as it is written:
Romans 8:1-11 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 ¶ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

It's great to be exploring these important doctrines with you my friend.

Richard

Just a couple of thoughts. What if God did indeed purpose for man to eat of the tree, of which we all, in Adam, at that moment, were plunged into sin and futility. And that he did this, knowing that he would reconcile every human being and that in Christ, all mankind died and also in Christ, all will live again, by means of grace? That this was all done in order to demonstrate very valuable truths for all creation, one's that show that there is no evil that God is not directly in total control of, not one maverick molecule in the universe, and furthermore, that man truly cannot govern himself or even live apart from their Creator.
Can not both exist equally, that God is indeed in control and sovereign over everything, even our decisions, and yet, at the same time, we truly make decisions, choices, and are not mere robots (as the common argument goes)? I would consider this block logic, instead of the western linear logic most are familiar with here.

Also, concerning the scripture about walking according to the Spirit, I do not see it as something we do in order to become free from sin; but rather, as a reality that shows we are indeed free from sin. In other words, if we are in Christ, and we are, then we are those who walk according to the Spirit. Now, as I shared in another post, the one about the tree, it may not always look like we are doing that, but nevertheless, who we truly are is always in step with the Spirit, even if outwardly it doesn't appear to be that way. What we are encouraged to do is believe the reality of all that it means to be in Christ, and thus walk outwardly what we are already walking inwardly.

One very succinct scripture which I see plainly showing this is Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness [notice the past tense] but now are light in the Lord [here he speaks of their reality, a reality that perhaps was not being seen outwardly, for he goes on the encourage them to] Walk as children of light.

In other words, we do not walk in a certain way to become light. We already are light. If outwardly we are not, then believing that we are will move us to walk outwardly as light. Walk as we are, because of what we are, not in order to become.

I am blessed by this discussion. Please continue.

Ron

joel

10-27-2008, 02:49 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

10-27-2008, 02:52 PM

Hello again my friend,

Thank you for your thoughtful posts. I am enjoying this conversation.

Adam and Eve were in a different situation because they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan tricked them into eating and they didn't eat knowing that they were sinning. It wasn't until after they ate that they gained knowledge of good and evil and then they knew they had sinned and were naked. It wasn't therefore a matter of sinful nature at that point, it was a matter of complete innocence.

I would say that Adam and Eve had no experiential knowledge of good and evil until after they ate. But they had to have knowledge of good and evil in an intellectual sense, or God's warning of death = bad would have made no sense to them.

I don't understand how they "didn't eat knowing that they were sinning" since God had given them a direct command not to eat. It seems that they must have understood quite well that they were disobeying God, and if asked, they would have said that was "wrong" though the word "sin" may not have been in their vocabulary yet.

After that point, anything that people do is not done out of complete innocence. All people have knowledge of good and evil and thus choose evil due to their sinful nature. We can't fully understand the condition Adam and Eve were in before the Fall because none of us throughout history have experienced it. Adam and Eve are the only two who experienced life in that way.
That depends on whether you believe that a baby is truly guilty of sin at the moment of conception. I don't think that really makes any sense. The word "sin" relates to what we think and do, not with what we are. I still have not seen anything in the Bible that makes me think our "nature" is different than Adam's before the fall. He was a creature of flesh just like us. Thus, when we are not in communion with the Spirit of God, we sin just like he did when God left him alone in the garden. Or do you believe that Adam was in full communion with the Spirit of God when he sinned?

Today however, we are slaves to sin. Scripture teaches:

Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin (John 8:34, ESV).

Yes, I agree completely with that scripture, but it doesn't mean that we have lost all moral agency. It certainly does not mean that the slave is incapable of desiring to be free, or of accepting the gift of freedom when offered by God.

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin (Romans 6:6).

Amen!

You quote scripture about the war between the flesh and the spirit, but that passage is speaking about those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. As Romans 6:6 says above, Jesus' death on the cross delivered us from that sinful nature so that we can be slaves of God rather than slaves to sin. We are still in our bodies, so we struggle with the flesh and the spirit, but that wasn't until after our spirit was regenerated.

That is correct, the passage was speaking of regenerated Christians. But the fact remains that it is the flesh that is the root souce of sin in our lives. The flesh is incapable of obeying the law of God. That's why God gave us His Spirit. But there is nothing that requires us to invent a new ontological category called "sin nature." All people who are not in communion with God through Christ are "of the flesh" and so the need to be set free from that bondage. But that does not mean that they have a "sin nature" in addition to the flesh. And there is no reason to think that the flesh went through some mystical/magical transformation when Adam sinned. What really happened is very simple. They were driven from the Garden, and no longer we in communion with God. Thus, we are born in the same condition, and until that communion with God through His Spirit is restored, we are in bondage to sin.

Before the regeneration of our spirit, we are enslaved to our sinful nature, but after the regeneration of our spirit, we then enter into a new struggle between our spirit and our flesh. Unbelievers do not have the struggle between their flesh and their spirit, but only believers. Paul in the passage you quoted was speaking to believers and about believers.

Again, you are basing your entire theology on the supposed existence of something called "sin nature." That is not how the Bible explains the condition of man. The Bible says that we are fleshly creatures, just like Adam and Eve, and it is becuase of our mind being focused on the "things of the flesh" that we die and are separated from God.

We must not lose sight of reality while discussing theology. And the reality is that people of every nation on the planet have all complained of the struggle between their spirit which knows to do right and the desires of the flesh. I don't think the idea that only Christians struggle with this problem. But only Christians have the full revelation of the solution, of course.

I don't quite see the logic in your view on God's foreknowledge. The Bible is clear that God makes choices, despite His foreknowledge. God chose Jacob over Esau, and just because He had foreknowledge of all that, doesn't mean He didn't really choose Jacob over Esau.

The logic is very simple. If God "always" knew everything then he already knew what "choice" he would make "before" He made it! So we must ask then, could God have made any other choice? In other words, is God free to choose anything? Complete foreknowledge seems to imply an absolutely changeless God which seems to imply that He is incapable of making any choices. This is not what I believe about God: my point here is that the question of foreknowledge leads directly to fundamental insolvable riddles, and so we need to be very careful when we make statements about predesitination and election. It's rather like transfinite numbers in which infinity + 1 = infinity. Many great minds were perplexed for millennia before the idea of infinity could be articulated without contradictions. The same problem applies to God. It is foolish to make a doctrine out of something that we can't even articulate, let alone understand.

"All" in the scriptures doesn't always mean every single individual, but rather people of all backgrounds (nation, tongue, tribe, etc).

Absolutely correct! :thumb:

But sometimes it does mean "all" as in every single individual, as in the statement "all have sinned." But then consider this statement:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
The Calvinist solution to this verse is to say that the first "all" means "every single individual in Adam" (which happens to be everyone) and the second "all" means "every single individual in Christ" which only includes the elect. But that's not what the text actaully says. That explanation (which certainly could be correct) was invented so that the verse would be consistent with Calvinist doctrine. But it is possible that the verse is truly universalistic and that both occurences of "all" in that verse refer to the same group, namely, every single individual. The interpretation of the text depends upon the theological presuppositions of the interpreter.

"Draw" in some passages is translated from the Greek word 'helko' which means 'to draw, to drag off.' If you look at several passages which use that word, it shows people being dragged outside of their will. In the same way, God doesn't draw in the sense that we come to Him completely on our own will, but that God drags us to Himself. (John 6:44; 12:32; 18:10; 21:6; 21:11). John in his gospel uses the Greek word for God dragging people to Himself and for the disciples dragging the net full of fish out of the water and unto land. In the same way, God catches the elect in a net and drags us unto Himself. Perhaps you can study the word and how it is used throughout the whole NT for further evidence.

Yes, you are correct about the basic meaning of "draw." The idea of "irresistable" does not prove or disprove Calvinism. It is perfectly consistent with the idea of God's Grace like the irresistable flow of a river that carries people along to the ocean of God's Love regardless of their own wills. It is the omnipotent transforming love of God that overcomes all resistence through weakness and love.

God is both active and passive in His dealings with the world. If God is passive then He allows us to do whatever is in our wicked hearts. If God is active, then He prevents us from doing what is in our hearts. In many of Israel's wars...God was active on their behalf in order for them to defeat the enemies, but in other cases God is passive and allows the enemies to defeat Israel. If God remains passive and doesn't intervene in our lives in any way, then nobody would be saved and the whole world would have probably been destroyed by now. God restrains evil in the world through His active role in the world. I'm using active and passive in describing God's intervening and His standing by and letting sinners do as they please. The elect are saved because God actively pursues them. The non-elect are not saved because God allows them to follow their own desires. If God were active in the non-elects damnation, then that would make God the author of sin and mean that God is actively forcing them to remain in disbelief.

If two boats are going down the river wherever the current leads them and they are heading towards a cliff, there are two things that can happen. God can actively intervene and prevent the boat from going over the cliff, or God can passively do nothing and allow the natural current of the river to carry the boat over the cliff. Same with double predestination. The elect are kept from going over the cliff (active) while the non-elect are carried by the natural flow of the river (passive).

In reference to the text I highlighted red: Calvinism explicitly teaches that God ordained "whatsoever comes to pass" - this implies that God is the author of sin. I have never seen a logically coherent answer to this fundamental problem.

Now as for the river analogy. That fails because God has the power to save both if he so chose. Therefore, He ACTIVELY chose to be "passive" about their fate. His passivity was the result of His active choice. If you imagine that you yourself have full power to save all people in both boats, but simply CHOSE for your own reasons to save one boat and let the other go over the edge, then it should be pretty obvious that you actively made a conscious choice to abandon those people.

As for your last paragraph about people just living as they please since their destinies are already determined, Paul already answered those arguments in scripture. I'm sure you are aware of those passages that teach God's grace is no license to sin and just because one is saved doesn't mean they can do whatever they want.

Peace and grace.
I agree completely with Paul about the reasons not to sin. But Paul taught that because he was not a Calvinist. <wink>

You missed my point. I was talking about the Calvinist teaching of ABSOLUTE FATALISM. Your destiny was sealed before you were born, or even before the world was created. There is absolutely nothing you can do to get saved if you were not already one of the elect, and if you are the elect, there is nothing you can do to get "unsaved." And since no one can know if they really are elect (as proven by the fact that very sincere seeming folks have fallen from the faith and died in unbelief) the only "logical" choice is to do what ever you want, whatever pleases you. This is the inevitable consequence of denying genuine moral agency and asserting that God has made all the choices before you were born.

It is very good to be chatting my friend,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

10-27-2008, 03:21 PM

Just a couple of thoughts. What if God did indeed purpose for man to eat of the tree, of which we all, in Adam, at that moment, were plunged into sin and futility. And that he did this, knowing that he would reconcile every human being and that in Christ, all mankind died and also in Christ, all will live again, by means of grace? That this was all done in order to demonstrate very valuable truths for all creation, one's that show that there is no evil that God is not directly in total control of, not one maverick molecule in the universe, and furthermore, that man truly cannot govern himself or even live apart from their Creator.

Hey there Ron,

I'm glad you joined in this discussion. Those are good insights. I have long believed that God "did indeed purpose for man to eat of the tree." But I have a more "organic" view of the whole sitution. I think there is a lot more to it than a demonstration of truth. It looks to me like the way that God creates free creatures. The fundamental truth is that flesh not governed by God's Spirit will sin. So God left Adam and Eve alone in the garden knowning that their flesh would find the forbidden fruit utterly irresistable. Thus the flesh was exposed for what it was, and God now has free creatures who He redeemed through Christ, so nothing was "lost" in the end. On the contrary, the Almighty Sovereign Lord God did something that seems impossible - He created truly free creatures who of necessity fell into sin, and then redeemed them, so now He has "His cake" and is eating it too! :lol:

Can not both exist equally, that God is indeed in control and sovereign over everything, even our decisions, and yet, at the same time, we truly make decisions, choices, and are not mere robots (as the common argument goes)? I would consider this block logic, instead of the western linear logic most are familiar with here.

There are philosophical questions I have no real hope of solving with any certainty in this life. That's why I don't make doctrines out of them.

Also, concerning the scripture about walking according to the Spirit, I do not see it as something we do in order to become free from sin; but rather, as a reality that shows we are indeed free from sin. In other words, if we are in Christ, and we are, then we are those who walk according to the Spirit. Now, as I shared in another post, the one about the tree, it may not always look like we are doing that, but nevertheless, who we truly are is always in step with the Spirit, even if outwardly it doesn't appear to be that way. What we are encouraged to do is believe the reality of all that it means to be in Christ, and thus walk outwardly what we are already walking inwardly.

One very succinct scripture which I see plainly showing this is Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness [notice the past tense] but now are light in the Lord [here he speaks of their reality, a reality that perhaps was not being seen outwardly, for he goes on the encourage them to] Walk as children of light.

In other words, we do not walk in a certain way to become light. We already are light. If outwardly we are not, then believing that we are will move us to walk outwardly as light. Walk as we are, because of what we are, not in order to become.

I am blessed by this discussion. Please continue.

Ron
That is very well expressed Ron. :thumb:

gregoryfl

10-27-2008, 04:03 PM

Hey there Ron,

I'm glad you joined in this discussion. Those are good insights. I have long believed that God "did indeed purpose for man to eat of the tree." But I have a more "organic" view of the whole sitution. I think there is a lot more to it than a demonstration of truth. It looks to me like the way that God creates free creatures. The fundamental truth is that flesh not governed by God's Spirit will sin. So God left Adam and Eve alone in the garden knowning that their flesh would find the forbidden fruit utterly irresistable. Thus the flesh was exposed for what it was, and God now has free creatures who He redeemed through Christ, so nothing was "lost" in the end. On the contrary, the Almighty Sovereign Lord God did something that seems impossible - He created truly free creatures who of necessity fell into sin, and then redeemed them, so now He has "His cake" and is eating it too! :lol:

Personally, as far as i can tell, I am full agreement with what you just shared here, perhaps just expressing it a bit differently. By him creating man in this way, knowing already that he was going to choose the wrong tree, he, as far as I understand, in that way, ordained, or purposed what eventually did happen. Not by force against his will, but God's will perfectly expressed with Adam and Eve's greatest inclination. He did it using man's choice. That choice was influenced by the greater inclination, which was to be like God, and thus, he chose.

In so doing, one of the things he certainly showed or demonstrated is what I shared, which you expressed as not being able to, in the flesh apart from God, serve him. In other words, our very existence and ability to truly live must be connected with Him by His Spirit or else all that is produced is death.

Ron

yeshua_seven

10-27-2008, 09:00 PM

yeshua_seven

10-27-2008, 09:15 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

10-27-2008, 10:31 PM

RAM,

It's tough for me to respond here on weekdays, but I will try to respond to a few things.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

The way I interpret this verse is that it says ALL those who are IN Adam will die, and then goes on to say that ALL those IN Christ will be made alive. The 'all' refers to every single individual in both parts, but it makes the distinction of "those in Adam" and those "in Christ." Those in Adam are all humans. Those in Christ are all those who put their faith in Him.

Yep, that's one of the possible interpretations that I mentioned. But it's not necessarily the correct interpretation since it depends on overall theological system with which one begins.

'Unregenerate' and 'sin-nature' are the same thing to me. Adam was spiritually alive, but when he sinned, his spirit died. Adam suffered spiritual death and is now unregenerate and in need of regeneration. When we are born, we are not born in the same condition as Adam and Eve were, but we are born unregenerate. So when I speak of our sin-nature, I am speaking of our need for regeneration. This seems to overlap somewhat with your understanding.

I don't think the equation "unregenerate = sin nature" works because the "regenerate" still have a "sin nature," right? Or do you believe that the elect are "sinless"?

Again, the idea of "sin nature" is not a Biblical concept. All the explanations of our condition use the word "flesh." Unfortunately, the NIV has incorrporated the doctrine of "sin nature" into their translation, and sometimes evern translate the word "flesh" (sarx) as "sin nature." That is a total error and an abominable translation.

I might respond to some other things later. Peace and grace.
I hope so!

Many blessings,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

10-27-2008, 10:50 PM

Rose,

Not all people are God's children. Only believers who are born-again are adopted as children of God. All others are enemies of God and not children. So God as the Father of believers would not do such things to His children, but to the non-elect, those who are not His children, He can do as He pleases.

I agree that the special relationship that Christians have with God is described by the metaphor "son of God." But that does not mean that every human is not "God's offspring" as explained by the Apostle Paul:
Acts 17:24-31 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul is clearly talking of ALL the descendents of Adam whom Scripture explicitly identifies as a "son of God" in Luke's geneology of Jesus Christ:
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

This coheres with Paul's statement that God made all men from "one blood." Thus, it seems to me that all the "sons of Adam" are the offspring of God who have been alienated from Him because of sin, and that when they are restored to a right relationship through faith in Jesus Christ, they are then given the special title of "sons of God" that has the full sense of a restored relationship. A good analogy is the parable of the Prodigal Son who was alienated from his father and then "restored" after "being dead." We know he was not literally dead any more than any of us are literally dead in sin. We are very much "alive" - but the Bible calls our condition "dead" because we are alienated from God the Father. When that relation is restored, we are said to have been "resurrected" and made "alive" again.
Luke 15:20-24 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Richard

yeshua_seven

11-02-2008, 01:33 PM

I'm quite busy this weekend, so I haven't had time to come here much, but I do want to share a youtube video which explains and provides scriptural support as to why mankind does not have a free-will. It is about 30 minutes long and divided into three videos, each being about 10 minutes long. I highly recommend it to all people no matter there religious background.

If you are interested, watch all three of them and share your thoughts.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVRrSO5wOj4

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5vYECqyT3k

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTjOrOz6G4w

yeshua_seven

11-29-2008, 10:31 PM

Scriptural support for Reformed Theology:

TOTAL DEPRAVITY - (Sinful Nature)

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Isaiah 59:7 Their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Wasting and destruction are in their paths.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Mark 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. (23) "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
(10) As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; (11) There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. (12) They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (13) "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; (14) "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." (15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood; (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways; (17) And the way of peace they have not known." (18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (15) But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. (16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. (17) For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Ephesians 2:1-2 1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

1Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose [that] in which I do not delight."

Isaiah 66:4 So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose [that] in which I do not delight."

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Predestination)

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:6-9 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame." (7) Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," (8) and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (9) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man] You choose, And cause to approach [You, That] he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Exodus 6:7 "I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians."

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you [are] a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Isaiah 43:20-21 The beast of the field will honor Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I give waters in the wilderness [And] rivers in the desert, To give drink to My people, My chosen.(21) This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise.

Malachi 3:16-18 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard [them]; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name. (17) "They shall be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him." (18) Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.

LIMITED ATONEMENT - {Particular Redemption}

Psalms 85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35-40 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (36) "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. (37) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. (38) "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (40) "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. (15) "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (16) "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

John 10:26-27 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (27) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

John 12:37-40 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, (38) that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" (39) Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: (40) "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

John 14:21-24 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." (22) Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" (23) Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (24) "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:9-10 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. (10) "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 17:20-21 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; (21) "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Acts 10:40-41 "Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, (41) "not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, [even] to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 15:14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:13-14 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, (14) if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Hebrews 7:25-26 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (26) For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood, Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

yeshua_seven

11-29-2008, 10:31 PM

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE:

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - {Regeneration & Effectual Calling}

Psalms 65:4 Blessed [is the man] You choose, And cause to approach [You, That] he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Genesis 50:20 "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
[ This verse shows that God's plan & purpose will NOT be changed, despite man's attempt at doing so. Though man tries to change things for his own sinful purposes, God's will & purpose will ALWAYS prevail. ]

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [them], even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:37-39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. (38) "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Romans 1:6-7 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; (7) To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Effectual Calling - the Holy Spirit convicts & convinces us. Yes, it's irresistible grace because it's so true, so logical and so convincing.]

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, (24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, (16) to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, (2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (3) among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast. (10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

2 Timothy 1:9-10 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, (10) but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.

John 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

PERSEVERANCE(Preservation) OF THE SAINTS - {Sanctification}

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:35-37 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. (36) "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. (37) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (28) "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (29) "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, (39) nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God [are] irrevocable.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God [which was] with me.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;

2 Timothy 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (21) make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith. (5) Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

John 17:2,12 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. (12) "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 1:6-8 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: (7) So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: (8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (24) Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard [you] from the evil one.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hebrews 6:17-19 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, (18) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. (19) This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,

Jeremiah 32:39-40 "then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. (40) And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me".

Psalms 121:1-8 I will lift up my eyes to the hills From whence comes my help? (2) My help [comes] from the LORD, Who made heaven and earth. (3) He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber. (4) Behold, He who keeps Israel Shall neither slumber nor sleep. (5) The LORD [is] your keeper; The LORD [is] your shade at your right hand. (6) The sun shall not strike you by day, Nor the moon by night. (7) The LORD shall preserve you from all evil; He shall preserve your soul. (8) The LORD shall preserve your going out and your coming in From this time forth, and even forevermore.

Isaiah 46:3-4 "Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, Who have been upheld [by Me] from birth, Who have been carried from the womb: (4) Even to [your] old age, I [am] He, And [even] to gray hairs I will carry [you]! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver [you].
Romans 9:6-8 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel, (7) nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." (8) That is, those who [are] the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Psalms 20:6 Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven With the saving strength of His right hand.

Psalms 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 55:22 Cast your burden on the LORD, And He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.

source: http://scripturetruths5.tripod.com/fpc.html

Richard Amiel McGough

11-29-2008, 10:53 PM

Hi yeshua_seven,

I'm glad you are pursuing this topic. I find it very interesting and important. But if you are copying an article from another site, please list the source. Also, such long lists of verses make it difficult to answer. It would be better to take one point at a time.

Scriptural support for Reformed Theology:

TOTAL DEPRAVITY - (Sinful Nature)

It seems to me that there is a fundamental error in this presentation. You quoted many verses, but not one directly supports the doctrine that we have a "sin nature." That term is never used in Scripture, and as far as I can tell, there is nothing in Scripture that supports that idea. I wrote a post about this in a thread called Sin Nature - the Phlogiston of Christian Theology?.

Here is my point in a nut-shell. The Bible says nothing about a "sin nature." It speaks about the war between the "flesh" and the "spirit." Adam and Eve sinned without a "sin nature" and so do we. There was no magical mystical transformation of our "nature" when Adam and Eve sinned. They sinned because they were created as fleshly creatures, and it is impossible for the flesh to fulfill the will of God. They did not require an additional "nature" to sin, and neither do we.

I will now review the verses you posted in light of the entire Biblical revelation.
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

This verse says nothing about a "sin nature." It merely states the fact that man had fallen into great wickedness. It does not say that humanity had aquired a new "nature." The reason for the "continual sin" was not because they had acquired a new nature. The reason was because they were not reconciled to God and so were living entirely in accordance with the carnal mind and so they fulfilled the desires of the flesh. There is no need to invent a "sin nature" to explain these biblical facts.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Again, there is nothing in that passage that says humanity acquired a "sin nature" after the fall. This passage merely states that people are sinners, and so are "unclean." That is because they are living according to the carnal mind, that is, the mind of the flesh. But we know that the "flesh" itself is not sinful by nature because Christ became FLESH but without sin. And also Adam and Eve were created as fleshly creatures and had no sin initially. So again, the idea of "sin nature" explains nothing in the Bible.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

OUr hearts are deceitful and wicked because they are ruled by the flesh. There is nothing here about a "sin nature."
Isaiah 59:7 Their feet run to evil, And they make haste to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; Wasting and destruction are in their paths.
Again, a mere statement of the works of the flesh. There is no need to invent the idea of a "sin nature" to understand that passage.

All the other verses are just like these. The idea of a "sin nature" is not in the Bible. Of course, I would be delighted to discuss this with you if you would like. But merely posting uninterpreted verses doesn't get us very far on the road to truth.

Many blessings to you yeshua_seven. I wish I had more time to view those youtube videos you posted. They would make for interesting discussion. But it would be much better if you posted you own understanding in your own words so I could interact with you directly. That would be most interesting indeed.

Richard

yeshua_seven

11-30-2008, 02:02 AM

I'm glad you are pursuing this topic. I find it very interesting and important. But if you are copying an article from another site, please list the source. Also, such long lists of verses make it difficult to answer. It would be better to take one point at a time.

I added the source now to the post. I figured since it was just scriptures it didn't really matter whether I posted the source or not, so I chose not to. Apparently it was evident to you that I got it from somewhere, lol, so it is best to put the source in there.

The list is quite long, but I figured it would be best to post it all together. I think it would require most people to read the whole list a few times before they could begin to understand it fully. I myself took much time before I understand these things and became convinced.

Here is my point in a nut-shell. The Bible says nothing about a "sin nature." It speaks about the war between the "flesh" and the "spirit." Adam and Eve sinned without a "sin nature" and so do we. There was no magical mystical transformation of our "nature" when Adam and Eve sinned. They sinned because they were created as fleshly creatures, and it is impossible for the flesh to fulfill the will of God. They did not require an additional "nature" to sin, and neither do we.

I see that you don't find the phrase "sin nature" as an appropriate description of this condition, but your responses seem to convey the same idea, just from a different angle.

Adam and Eve had the ability to choose the desires of the flesh or the desires of the spirit. When they sinned by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that sin caused them to die spiritually and thus they became in bondage entirely to the flesh which is influenced heavily by the knowlege of good and evil. That tree must play a huge role in the depravity of man.

Adam and Eve were originally like us born-again believers today, minus the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They could choose the flesh or the spirit, just as believers today can walk by the flesh or the spirit. As for unbelievers, they can't walk by the spirit, but only the flesh.

Whatever we want to call it, something happened across mankind that causes us to lean towards evil rather than good. If you don't like "sin nature" then how about "total depravity?"

OUr hearts are deceitful and wicked because they are ruled by the flesh. There is nothing here about a "sin nature."

Can you explain how our hearts are deceitful and wicked because they are ruled by our flesh when you just said earlier that are flesh is not evil by nature? If our flesh is good or even neutral, how does it make our hearts deceitful and wicked? Wouldn't it make our hearts good or neutral?

But merely posting uninterpreted verses doesn't get us very far on the road to truth.

The original purpose of posting the scriptures is for the scriptures to speak for themselves without a human's interpretation other than the one reading it.

I wish I had more time to view those youtube videos you posted. They would make for interesting discussion. But it would be much better if you posted you own understanding in your own words so I could interact with you directly. That would be most interesting indeed.

I'm usually the same way. I want people to give me their own views and not point me to other sources for I can't know whether they agree 100% with those sources or are just posting them because they lack the knowledge for themselves. I posted the videos for a few reasons, but if you don't have time to watch them and prefer to hear it in my own words, then God willing I can do so. Not sure when.

Peace and grace.

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 08:45 AM

I added the source now to the post. I figured since it was just scriptures it didn't really matter whether I posted the source or not, so I chose not to. Apparently it was evident to you that I got it from somewhere, lol, so it is best to put the source in there.

Hi yeshua_seven,

Yes, it was just a list of Scritpures, so there weren't any copyright issues like there would be with original writings. I just wanted to remind folks that its always best to supply the source when posting material from other sites. Thanks for understanding.

The list is quite long, but I figured it would be best to post it all together. I think it would require most people to read the whole list a few times before they could begin to understand it fully. I myself took much time before I understand these things and became convinced.

I agree that it is good to have all the citations for a single point - but putting together all five points of TULIP was a bit much since we can't deal with all that at once. But there's no problem, and I'm glad you have provided that grist for our mill.

I see that you don't find the phrase "sin nature" as an appropriate description of this condition, but your responses seem to convey the same idea, just from a different angle.

Adam and Eve had the ability to choose the desires of the flesh or the desires of the spirit. When they sinned by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that sin caused them to die spiritually and thus they became in bondage entirely to the flesh which is influenced heavily by the knowlege of good and evil. That tree must play a huge role in the depravity of man.

I agree completely. But the change is described in Scripture as going from "life" to "death" and from "fellowship with God" to "estrangement from God." The term "sin nature" has no justification from Scripture and completely confuses the issue, as I explained in my "phlogiston" post. The idea of "sin nature" explains nothing. We are fleshly creatures born out of communion with God and that is the problem solved by the Gospel of the reconciliation of the world to God through Christ. The problem is that "sin nature" is an invented substance that simply does not exist. Many people then take this idea and invent doctrines about how we inherit the physical sin nature through the father's dna, etc, and on so. If it is a false abstraction we should not teach it.

Adam and Eve were originally like us born-again believers today, minus the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They could choose the flesh or the spirit, just as believers today can walk by the flesh or the spirit. As for unbelievers, they can't walk by the spirit, but only the flesh.

Whatever we want to call it, something happened across mankind that causes us to lean towards evil rather than good. If you don't like "sin nature" then how about "total depravity?"

It's not that I don't "like" the term "sin nature." My point is that it refers to a concept that has nothing to do with the Bible.

As for "total depravity" - I don't particularly like that term either because it carries with it some very misleading ideas. I would be very happy to discuss the verses supporting the Doctrine of Total Depravity, but before we do that we will have to define its meaning, and that is no small task. Do you realize that the doctrine was not articulated until five centuries after Christ by Augustine? And that Augustine had some very strange ideas that go well beyond the simple teachings of the Bible? Calvinism is also known as "Augustinianism." These are important issues that must be discussed before we can determine the truth or falsehood of "Total Depravity."

Can you explain how our hearts are deceitful and wicked because they are ruled by our flesh when you just said earlier that are flesh is not evil by nature? If our flesh is good or even neutral, how does it make our hearts deceitful and wicked? Wouldn't it make our hearts good or neutral?

Yes, I most certainly can explain that! I'm glad you asked. :)

The Bible teaches that the mind ruled by the flesh is not ruled by the Spirit, and that the Spirit is the only way we can know the will and mind of God. So if our minds are set on the things of the flesh, we won't be doing the will of God and that leads to all kinds of sin and wickedness and depravity.

As you can see, the problem is not caused by a "sin nature." It is caused by a lack of communion with God, a break that happened in the Garden that is restored through Christ.

The original purpose of posting the scriptures is for the scriptures to speak for themselves without a human's interpretation other than the one reading it.

AMEN! That's why we should not invent concepts like "sin nature" that are not found in Scripture. But please note that I am not rejecting that term becuase "that term" is not found in Scripture. That would be a false standard. I accept many terms like "incarnation of Christ" and "Trinity" that do not appear in the Bible. It is not the term "sin nature" that I reject, rather, I reject the concept of a "sin nature" as not taught in Scripture.

I'm usually the same way. I want people to give me their own views and not point me to other sources for I can't know whether they agree 100% with those sources or are just posting them because they lack the knowledge for themselves. I posted the videos for a few reasons, but if you don't have time to watch them and prefer to hear it in my own words, then God willing I can do so. Not sure when.

Peace and grace.
I look forward to pursing these ideas with you my friend. Thanks for taking time to write.

Many blessings to you and yours,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 08:48 AM

Here is my original post from the Sin Nature - the Phlogiston of Christian Theology? thread. I thought I'd repost it here sin we are discussing that topic now.

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Sin Nature - the Phlogiston of Christian Theology?

Scientists once thought there was a physical substance called phlogiston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory)that was released when things burned. It was interesting stuff because it had no color, odor, taste, or weight. In other words, it was undetectable. They speculated that the ash was the essence of wood after the phlogiston escaped. Then they discovered that combustion is a chemical process, and discarded the false notion of phlogiston as not corresponding to anything in the real world.

Likewise, scientists once thought there was a physical substance called the ether (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Ether.html)that was required to carry light waves. They could not conceive how light could travel through a vacuum. They thought that all waves, like sound waves in the air or waves in the water, needed a medium to undulate. The Michelson-Morley (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Michelson-MorleyExperiment.html) experiment showed that it, like the phlogiston before it, was undetectable. Apparently, scientists had had enough with "undetectable substances", and so they discarded the false notion of the ether too.

In both of these cases, science advanced by recognizing that the physical substances postulated in their theories did not correspond to anything in the real world. Attempts to formulate theories based on such false notions of reality were doomed to failure.

The same is true for the Christian understanding of the world that God created.

I think the idea of the "sin nature" is the theological equivalent of phlogiston and ether.

It does not correspond to anything in the real world addressed in Scripture.

It seems that theologians have confused the very real and biblical teaching about the flesh with a theological construct called the "sin nature." Most of them speak as if it is some sort of physical contagion transmitted to the next generation only by the father, an idea they use to "explain" why Christ had to be born of a virgin.

Clarification of this issue brings a lot of light to our study of the Bible. For example, most people have been taught that we sin "because we have a sin nature." But that immediately raises the question of why Adam and Eve sinned, since they were created without a "sin nature." Once the "sin nature" is exposed as a false notion, we can easily see the elegant solution to this ancient conundrum. Adam and Eve were created as fleshly creatures, just like you and me. And what does the flesh do when it is not subject to the guidance of God's Spirit?

IT SINS.

It can't help it. How could it? It doesn't know what the mind of the Spirit is! How can it know the will of God? All it knows is its own desires and lusts. The flesh by itself can not please God. It is like a horse without a rider, run wild.

But remember, the flesh is not sinful by nature. True, it is very weak, and prone to sin, but we know it can not be intrinsically sinful because the Word (Christ) became flesh and dwelt amongst us, yet without sin. And again, we have proof from Genesis that the flesh is not intrinsically sinful. Adam and Eve were created as fleshly creatures, but had no sin until they disobeyed God.

So how did Adam and Eve sin without having a sin nature?

Simple! They were fleshly creatures, and the story makes it abundantly clear they were not in conscious communion with God when they sinned! And so, they acted as fleshly creatures not guided by God, and sinned. (Note how this relates to the challenges of our daily walk!) This is further confirmed by the description of what led up to their sin:

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat

Sounds like a very fleshly temptation! Compare this with the classic sin passage:

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (make one wise?), is not of the Father, but is of the world.

So there it is. That's the basic idea I was hoping to share in this post. I think it leads to a magnificent harmony between Scripture and Reality that actually makes sense. And it is extremely satisfying to have a full understanding of Scripture without a mystical undetectable substance that has no "color, odor, taste, or weight."

There is much more to say on this matter, but I will wait for a response to what has been written. I am curious if these ideas make sense to other folks, and if not, why not.

I look forward to your comments.

RAM

gregoryfl

11-30-2008, 09:19 AM

joel

11-30-2008, 09:24 AM

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 11:04 AM

Thank you both, Basilfo, and Richard, for this very enlightening discussion. I cannot say so with certainty, but it is possible that the idea of a "sin nature" comes straight out of Greek thinking, wherein anything of the "flesh" is evil, and that God is only interested in saving and working with the "spirit," a separate part inside of man.
Hi Ron,

Well stated! I would say that you have exposed the gnostic "anti-flesh" connection with the idea of a "sin nature." This is one of the primary gnostics errors that the Apostle John declared to be so heretical as to be "of the spirit of antichrist" -

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The idea that the perfect and holy God who is Spirit could "become flesh" was rejected by the gnostics who held that Christ was "pure spirit" because the flesh was "evil by nature."

I would define Adam and Eve's condition when they sinned, which Richard very nicely defined in what he wrote, as simply, "of the senses." Or "natural." For the temptation came from within Eve, by her natural senses. For it was her sense of sight [a delight to the eyes] and her sense of taste [good for food] which drew her toward it, not just the desire of her heart to become wise like God. It did not come from something "evil" within her. Every sin ever committed I think can ultimately be tied in with the senses in some way. The senses are designed for the pleasure of life, but more importantly, the preservation of life. Apart from God, those senses end up leading to sinful acts, not because the senses are evil, but simply because God places limits on our pleasures, and our senses in and of themselves, do not recognize such limits. One of the easiest to understand examples of this is the sex act. Neither sex, nor the pleasure it brings, is wrong. But just experiencing it in any circumstance we want because the senses desire its pleasure is wrong, because God has placed limits on it's use. It is only by our being joined to God where our senses act in harmony with his desire.

Ron
That too is very well stated. And from this point of view we understand that we sin for the same reason as Adam and Eve, and so we see the unity of the entire body of Scripture from beginning to end. And we don't have to introduce a new magical mystical "substance" called a "sin nature" that doesn't explain anything anyway, and we don't find ourselves confronted with wierd questions like "If we sin because we have a sin nature, how did Adam and Eve sin without one?" And finally, we don't have the false excuse that we sin "because we have a sin nature" and that we "must sin" because it is "our nature." This impacts fundamental theological questions in a thousand ways. The popular teaching is that even reborn/regenerated Christians continue to have a "sin nature" and that is used as an explanation for why Christians too will "always sin in every thought, word, and deed." Bleh! All meaning of words is lost in such sophistical philophilophy.

Thanks for sharing your insights Ron,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 11:13 AM

During our spiritual quests together, we have gone back to the Genesis story of the garden on many occassions, and have come forth with renewed views of the important events that occurred.

Yes....I agree with you Richard concerning this matter of "sin nature". It is an unscriptural phrase that we should attempt to remove from our vocabulary.

Another thing that I object to.....is to refer to "spiritual death". We need more light on the matter of death so as to also adjust our understanding and vocabulary accordingly.

I very much agree that "spiritual death" could have connotations that are just flat wrong, and so we should examine its meaning and if it is a valid term. But to me it doesn't seem so cut and dry as "sin nature" because Paul does say that we were "dead in (Gk: en)" our sins, and that the "sting of sin is death" and that we have been "made alive" in Christ. So the language of "spiritual death" seems to be used frequently in Scripture, and I have not yet seen any reason to reject it. But I would be delighted if you would like to revisit this question with us.

One thing that struck me recently when looking at the event again was that Eve ate............and nothing happened. But, when she gave the fruit to her husband with her........and he ate...........then, something dramatic occurred.

Their nature didn't become "sinful nature". But.....they surely changed.

The point that I am referring to is............since Eve came out of Adam, she was subject to him in a special way.....when he ate, and the change occurred, it occurred within him, and within her simultaneously.

Joel
I wonder if that is reading more into the text than is really there. I say this because there is no indication in the text that they ate at different times. It sounds like a simultaneous event that they both participated in together:

Genesis 3:6-7 ... she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
It sounds like they ate together at the same time.

Richard

yeshua_seven

11-30-2008, 01:28 PM

I agree completely. But the change is described in Scripture as going from "life" to "death" and from "fellowship with God" to "estrangement from God." The term "sin nature" has no justification from Scripture and completely confuses the issue, as I explained in my "phlogiston" post. The idea of "sin nature" explains nothing. We are fleshly creatures born out of communion with God and that is the problem solved by the Gospel of the reconciliation of the world to God through Christ. The problem is that "sin nature" is an invented substance that simply does not exist. Many people then take this idea and invent doctrines about how we inherit the physical sin nature through the father's dna, etc, and on so. If it is a false abstraction we should not teach it.

Original sin is confusing and misleading as well, so I think I understand that part of your thinking with 'sin nature.'

As for "total depravity" - I don't particularly like that term either because it carries with it some very misleading ideas. I would be very happy to discuss the verses supporting the Doctrine of Total Depravity, but before we do that we will have to define its meaning, and that is no small task. Do you realize that the doctrine was not articulated until five centuries after Christ by Augustine? And that Augustine had some very strange ideas that go well beyond the simple teachings of the Bible? Calvinism is also known as "Augustinianism." These are important issues that must be discussed before we can determine the truth or falsehood of "Total Depravity."

Despite humanities way of defining things, I still see the same concept in scripture, even if humans describe it is less than perfect words. I never heard of Calvinism also called Augustinianism, but from what I understand the teaching goes back to the apostles themselves for they wrote the scriptures in the NT which support it. I could never fully understand certain passages in the Bible until I understood the TULIP. Now they make sense.

Total depravity simply means to me that humans are completely incapable of seeing the true glory of Christ and putting their faith and trust in him alone. Due to their spiritual death and estrangement from God, their thoughts, heart, and will are only evil continually. They are completely incapable of believing and trusting in Christ.

As you can see, the problem is not caused by a "sin nature." It is caused by a lack of communion with God, a break that happened in the Garden that is restored through Christ.

Are you saying that the problem with mankind is a nature that lacks the Holy Spirit giving life to the spirit of man? If so, then that makes sense.

Adam and Eve originally had life in their flesh and life in their spirit. They were capable of choosing to submit to the flesh or to submit to the spirit, just as believers are today. Their spirit was alive by the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit. When they sinned, that life-giving power of the Holy Spirit was cut off and the spirit of mankind died. The reason sin is so much more prevalent after the fall is that the knowledge of good and evil from the tree makes sin so much more appealing to man, and without the Holy Spirit giving life to our spirit, our sin abounds. We are held captive to our flesh (thoughts, heart, and will).

However, in order for man to believe in Christ and put his faith in Christ, he must first be born-again. Nobody can come to the faith and then be born-again, but they must be born-again first and then they can come to the faith. The two actually happen at the same time. As soon as a man is born-again, he instantly believes in Christ. Being born-again is the cause, and faith is the immediate effect of that cause.

In conclusion to this mini-sermon in the middle of my reply, we do not have a sin nature, but rather a human nature which lacks the Holy Spirit giving life to our human spirit. In the resurrection when we receive our glorified bodies, we become something Adam and Eve were not in the Garden. Adam and Eve didn't have glorified bodies, but had bodies just like us. Some how, but I don't know how, our glorified bodies will always submit to the spirit and never to the flesh. But then again our flesh and spirit must some how become one. The knowledge of good and evil will no longer influence us to do evil.

AMEN! That's why we should not invent concepts like "sin nature" that are not found in Scripture. But please note that I am not rejecting that term becuase "that term" is not found in Scripture. That would be a false standard. I accept many terms like "incarnation of Christ" and "Trinity" that do not appear in the Bible. It is not the term "sin nature" that I reject, rather, I reject the concept of a "sin nature" as not taught in Scripture.

I understand what you saying. That is one reason I thought of it but didn't choose to reply earlier with the word Trinity not being the Bible. I know you enough to know that the word alone not being in the Bible is not the base of your argument.

Even the five points of Calvinism were not originally from John Calvin, only the concepts, but due to various reasons, we usually keep those titles. Many Reformed Theologions understand titles such as "limited atonement" to be a misleading title which is why we also call it "particular atonement" which sounds less misleading. Particular starts with a 'P' so it messes up the TULIP acronym. Otherwise we would have TUPIP.

I know you said it is the concept of sin nature that you don't agree with and not just the title, and although I adjusted a few things in my mini-sermon at the middle of this reply to take away that concept of sin nature, the concept of mankind being incapable of believing and trusting in Christ alone without being born-again still holds true.

Despite this, I may still use the "sin nature" title at times because people will recognize it. I know plenty of teachers, Christian or not Christian, who still use words that they don't like to use. I don't like original sin, but I still use it at times because Christians will recognize it. I don't use it for non-Christians though.

Thanks for your time and it does help me question everything and leads me to perfecting truth to the best that God's grace will allow me to. Peace and grace.

yeshua_seven

11-30-2008, 01:46 PM

Yes Richard, that article does make sense and I think I agree with it. However, it doesn't conflict with my understanding of man's complete inability to turn to Christ for salvation without being born-again by the Holy Spirit first.

joel

11-30-2008, 02:36 PM

It sounds like they ate together at the same time.

I know it's pure conjecture........but.......what if he did not eat?

Then, what?

Joel

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 02:42 PM

I know it's pure conjecture........but.......what if he did not eat?

Then, what?

Joel
That's a facinating question! Unfortunately, I have no clue as how I could ever answer it. Do you have any ideas?

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 03:01 PM

Original sin is confusing and misleading as well, so I think I understand that part of your thinking with 'sin nature.'

Yes, the two concepts go hand in hand, and are identified closely with each other. As far as I know, they both originated with Augustine in the fifth century.

Despite humanities way of defining things, I still see the same concept in scripture, even if humans describe it is less than perfect words. I never heard of Calvinism also called Augustinianism, but from what I understand the teaching goes back to the apostles themselves for they wrote the scriptures in the NT which support it. I could never fully understand certain passages in the Bible until I understood the TULIP. Now they make sense.

That is very interesting. I find TULIP quite contrary to Scripture on many points. I look forward to digging into this if you have time.

It is very important to understand that the idea of "sin nature" is very different than the Biblical teaching that "all have sinned." It introduces a new ontological category which adversely affects every aspect of our understanding if it does not actually exist. Like "phlogiston" and "ether." Progress towards knowledge of the truth of God's Creation was hindered until those false concepts were removed from the table. If "sin nature" is a similar false concept, then it must be removed before real progress can be made.

Total depravity simply means to me that humans are completely incapable of seeing the true glory of Christ and putting their faith and trust in him alone. Due to their spiritual death and estrangement from God, their thoughts, heart, and will are only evil continually. They are completely incapable of believing and trusting in Christ.

I find it very difficult to agree that their " thoughts, heart, and will are only evil continually." That just does not correspond to reality if the words "evil" and "continually" mean what they mean. This is the primary problem I have with the Calvinist philosophy. It seems to destroy the meaning of words to such an extent that nothing in the Bible really means what it says. For example, God does NOT want everyone to be saved, and God does NOT love everyone. These seem to be inescapable logical ramifications of the Calvinist presuppositions, and that's why I think they can not be true.

Are you saying that the problem with mankind is a nature that lacks the Holy Spirit giving life to the spirit of man? If so, then that makes sense.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The "flesh" that I had before I was saved has exactly the same nature as before I was saved. It is the same "nature" that Adam had before and after he fell. The change was in relationship to God, not in the "nature" of our "flesh."

Adam and Eve originally had life in their flesh and life in their spirit. They were capable of choosing to submit to the flesh or to submit to the spirit, just as believers are today. Their spirit was alive by the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit. When they sinned, that life-giving power of the Holy Spirit was cut off and the spirit of mankind died. The reason sin is so much more prevalent after the fall is that the knowledge of good and evil from the tree makes sin so much more appealing to man, and without the Holy Spirit giving life to our spirit, our sin abounds. We are held captive to our flesh (thoughts, heart, and will).

That makes sense to me. The relationship with God through His Spirit was broken. But this brings up a very important question. How could they sin if they were in communion with God through His Spirit? The answer is that they could not. That is why God gave those fleshly creatures a command to resist a fleshly tempation and then left them alone in the Garden. He knew that the flesh could not on its own power fulfill His Will. He wanted that truth manifested. And the rest is history.

However, in order for man to believe in Christ and put his faith in Christ, he must first be born-again. Nobody can come to the faith and then be born-again, but they must be born-again first and then they can come to the faith. The two actually happen at the same time. As soon as a man is born-again, he instantly believes in Christ. Being born-again is the cause, and faith is the immediate effect of that cause.

That is a fundamental doctrine of Calvinism. It is called the "ordo salutis (http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis)" meaning the "order of salvation." It is another doctrine for which I can not find much support in Scripture, though the "opening of hearts" that God does can be used. It would be very interesting to discuss this point.

In conclusion to this mini-sermon in the middle of my reply, we do not have a sin nature, but rather a human nature which lacks the Holy Spirit giving life to our human spirit. In the resurrection when we receive our glorified bodies, we become something Adam and Eve were not in the Garden. Adam and Eve didn't have glorified bodies, but had bodies just like us. Some how, but I don't know how, our glorified bodies will always submit to the spirit and never to the flesh. But then again our flesh and spirit must some how become one. The knowledge of good and evil will no longer influence us to do evil.

Your "sermons" are always welcome here my friend! :thumb:

I agree that Adam and Eve did not have glorified bodies. First the natural, then the spiritual. This fits perfectly with Paul's teachings:
1 Corinthians 15:45-48 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
Great chatting,

Richard

gregoryfl

11-30-2008, 03:04 PM

I know it's pure conjecture........but.......what if he did not eat?

Then, what?

JoelWell, Adam did have 23 other ribs. :lol:

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2008, 03:12 PM

Well, Adam did have 23 other ribs. :lol:
That's a good answer! Made me laugh.

He actually only had 23 left over ... but that probably would have been enough. :D

joel

11-30-2008, 03:24 PM

That's a facinating question! Unfortunately, I have no clue as how I could ever answer it. Do you have any ideas?

The entrance into the creation of sin and death came through Adam. Those two things did not enter through Eve.

I say...........he had to eat, so that could happen. Otherwise, it would not occur through her.

Joel

yeshua_seven

11-30-2008, 04:27 PM

I find it very difficult to agree that their " thoughts, heart, and will are only evil continually." That just does not correspond to reality if the words "evil" and "continually" mean what they mean. This is the primary problem I have with the Calvinist philosophy. It seems to destroy the meaning of words to such an extent that nothing in the Bible really means what it says. For example, God does NOT want everyone to be saved, and God does NOT love everyone. These seem to be inescapable logical ramifications of the Calvinist presuppositions, and that's why I think they can not be true.

Well evil is anything that is not of God. Evil is anything that is done outside of God. If an unbelieving fireman saves a child from a burning building, that man will have evil at the root of his heart. No matter what he says, inside he will enjoy the attention he gets from the people and the people will make him feel like a hero. Perhaps he became a firefighter in the first place in order to put out fires and save people from fires and then receive the glory for it. To take for yourself what is God's is evil. What appears to be good on the outside, doesn't mean what is in a person's heart is good. Bill Gates can give millions of dollars to a charity, but unless he does it for the glory of God, he does it for the glory of himself, and that is evil.

"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31, ESV) **Anything less than that is evil in God's eyes.

The reason we believe that God does not want everyone to be saved is because God is sovereign and if he wants something, he gets it. If God wants everybody to be saved, then everybody will be saved. How can God want something but not get it? If I want to throw a bottle across the room, I do not have the final say on that. If it is God's will for me to throw it, then he will let me throw it. If it is not his will for me to throw it, then he will stop me.

As for God does not love all people, I was in a debate about that a few times with other Reformed believers. I don't know how orthodox that is at this point, but I know that not all Calvinists believe that God only loves the elect. I believe that God has a special love for the elect, but that he still loves the non-elect. I hear the argument that if God loves everyone, then everyone would be saved, but I disagree with that. God loves the elect in a different way than he loves the non-elect. Just like a son will love his own mother in a different way than he will love other peoples mothers. A believer will love other believers in a different way than unbelievers.

One theory I came up with is that God loves unbelievers in this life, but after Judgment Day, God will have no love for unbelievers whatsoever. God commanded us to love our enemies. That applies to us in this life. After Judgment Day, I don't expect God to command us to continue to love all the people in hell. Rather on that day, we will have no love whatsoever for unbelievers in hell. The love of God is not a feeling, but a choice. God doesn't love us because he has feelings toward us, but God loves us because he chooses to love us. We must choose to love others also. When people are sent to hell, we don't have to choose to love no more.

How could they sin if they were in communion with God through His Spirit? The answer is that they could not.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Believers are in communion with God through his Spirit now, yet we can still sin.

That is a fundamental doctrine of Calvinism. It is called the "ordo salutis" meaning the "order of salvation." It is another doctrine for which I can not find much support in Scripture, though the "opening of hearts" that God does can be used. It would be very interesting to discuss this point.

I'm still working on areas of this to understand some aspects of it more, but I do believe it. This would mean that saints of the Old Covenant were born-again as well. This would have to mean that Abraham was born-again at some point in his life. Otherwise he couldn't have put his faith in God.

A good place to start on the issue of Calvinism is Romans 9.

joel

11-30-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregoryfl View Post
Well, Adam did have 23 other ribs.
That's a good answer! Made me laugh.

He actually only had 23 left over ... but that probably would have been enough.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I almost busted a rib on that one!

Joel