The RAPTURE

[TheForgiven]

Greetings my fellow family in Christ Jesus. :yo:

I'm not sure how long, or far this thread will go, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

A thought transpired within my mind two days ago, regarding the Rapture. It appears the central conclusion our Dispensational friends share (not just on this forum) is that they are looking for a conclusion of what they believe will be the single most significant event in human history; the Rapture of the Saints.

Based on my research and studies over the years, although certainly not limited to the listed interpretations, there are three different interpretations of the Rapture theory.

PRE-TRIBULATION:

This school of thought believes that the Great Tribulation is still within the future of a rebuilt Jewish community, at a time which the Saints around the world will begin suffering the Great Tribulation. However, Saints will be "Raptured" prior to this event, and those that remain will be given roughly 7 years to repent of their sins, and turn to Christ, though not without a great deal of persecution, and sorrow. These teach that Christ with the Raptures Saints, and fight against the AC, and thus usher in the Millennium. Peace on earth will last 1000 years, and Satan will be unbound to fight the final war against Christ, resulting in his predetermined defeat, and sentenced to eternal hell. Finally, the Great White Throne judgment will occur, and the world of eternity will be ushered, after our current heaven and earth are completely destroyed.

MID-TRIBULATION:

These are similar to those listed above, but believe the Saints are Raptured in the middle of a seven year Tribulation. Only those found worthy will be Raptured, with the rest remaining to suffer the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. The end results the same as Pre-Tribulation.

POST-TRIBULATION:

These do not preach of a Rapture to spare the Saints. These believe that Christians will suffer intensely during this period, and some of these believe that the Saints will be Raptured near the end of the Tribulation Period, only to return to repopulate the earth for 1000 years. The end result is the same.

Now there are more schools of thought that I'm sure I missed, regarding the Rapture, but this pretty much sums up what I've learned with these different schools of thought. I myself was taught Pre-Tribulation as a young child. Of course, I no longer hold to such myths.

Where does the Rapture come from? The primary passage used to support the Rapture theory was the letter written by St. Paul to the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonian 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul wrote to comfort the Thessalonian Christians who believed that they, for some odd reason, missed the resurrection of the Saints. We could debate all day, as to why they may have felt that way; this isn't the point of the thread.

Before I post my comments regarding the Rapture, I'd like to ask anyone who supports this theory what they believe is the end result of the Rapture, apart from abiding with the Lord forever?

The passage speaks nothing of the worlds end, yet Futurist's seem to insist that the Rapture hasn't yet happened because we are all still here, and that the earth has not yet been destroyed. But are we missing something? Does Paul allude to an ending point in this passage? He speaks of "we who are still alive..." as though he was referring to his generation. Is there any proof, or reason, to believe that Paul was referring to those in all generations? Isn't it possible he was only referring to those within his generation, and not future generations?

Futurist's assume that once the Rapture occurs, and the Great Tribulation is completed, and the 1000 years are fulfilled, that the earth will come to an end, and a New Heaven and New Earth will be established. And because these events haven't come to pass (theoretically speaking), the Rapture could not have happened, based on their rationality.

Where, in any passage, does the New Testament teach of a Rapture, resulting in a future generation from Paul's time? I'm asking because it's possible that the Rapture could have happened in the first century (Theoretically speaking), and we're awaiting the final end.

Now you may answer the question directly, but I'd like you to answer in a different way, instead of the traditional way.

Answer me with a list of hard points as to why the Rapture could not have occurred in the first century.....assuming the Rapture is true.

That's my homework lesson for you. :D

Joe

[Bob May]

Greetings my fellow family in Christ Jesus. :yo:

I'm not sure how long, or far this thread will go, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

A thought transpired within my mind two days ago, regarding the Rapture. It appears the central conclusion our Dispensational friends share (not just on this forum) is that they are looking for a conclusion of what they believe will be the single most significant event in human history; the Rapture of the Saints.

Based on my research and studies over the years, although certainly not limited to the listed interpretations, there are three different interpretations of the Rapture theory.

PRE-TRIBULATION:

This school of thought believes that the Great Tribulation is still within the future of a rebuilt Jewish community, at a time which the Saints around the world will begin suffering the Great Tribulation. However, Saints will be "Raptured" prior to this event, and those that remain will be given roughly 7 years to repent of their sins, and turn to Christ, though not without a great deal of persecution, and sorrow. These teach that Christ with the Raptures Saints, and fight against the AC, and thus usher in the Millennium. Peace on earth will last 1000 years, and Satan will be unbound to fight the final war against Christ, resulting in his predetermined defeat, and sentenced to eternal hell. Finally, the Great White Throne judgment will occur, and the world of eternity will be ushered, after our current heaven and earth are completely destroyed.

MID-TRIBULATION:

These are similar to those listed above, but believe the Saints are Raptured in the middle of a seven year Tribulation. Only those found worthy will be Raptured, with the rest remaining to suffer the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. The end results the same as Pre-Tribulation.

POST-TRIBULATION:

These do not preach of a Rapture to spare the Saints. These believe that Christians will suffer intensely during this period, and some of these believe that the Saints will be Raptured near the end of the Tribulation Period, only to return to repopulate the earth for 1000 years. The end result is the same.

Now there are more schools of thought that I'm sure I missed, regarding the Rapture, but this pretty much sums up what I've learned with these different schools of thought. I myself was taught Pre-Tribulation as a young child. Of course, I no longer hold to such myths.

Where does the Rapture come from? The primary passage used to support the Rapture theory was the letter written by St. Paul to the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonian 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul wrote to comfort the Thessalonian Christians who believed that they, for some odd reason, missed the resurrection of the Saints. We could debate all day, as to why they may have felt that way; this isn't the point of the thread.

Before I post my comments regarding the Rapture, I'd like to ask anyone who supports this theory what they believe is the end result of the Rapture, apart from abiding with the Lord forever?

The passage speaks nothing of the worlds end, yet Futurist's seem to insist that the Rapture hasn't yet happened because we are all still here, and that the earth has not yet been destroyed. But are we missing something? Does Paul allude to an ending point in this passage? He speaks of "we who are still alive..." as though he was referring to his generation. Is there any proof, or reason, to believe that Paul was referring to those in all generations? Isn't it possible he was only referring to those within his generation, and not future generations?

Futurist's assume that once the Rapture occurs, and the Great Tribulation is completed, and the 1000 years are fulfilled, that the earth will come to an end, and a New Heaven and New Earth will be established. And because these events haven't come to pass (theoretically speaking), the Rapture could not have happened, based on their rationality.

Where, in any passage, does the New Testament teach of a Rapture, resulting in a future generation from Paul's time? I'm asking because it's possible that the Rapture could have happened in the first century (Theoretically speaking), and we're awaiting the final end.

Now you may answer the question directly, but I'd like you to answer in a different way, instead of the traditional way.

Answer me with a list of hard points as to why the Rapture could not have occurred in the first century.....assuming the Rapture is true.

That's my homework lesson for you. :D
Joe

Hi Joe,

I believe the Rapture means "taken up" if I'm not mistaken.
I believe it happened in the first century (to Paul for example) and that it has been happening to individuals in every generation since.
It is in my opinion a Spiritual experience. An awakening.

Pre, Mid, or Post do not apply.

The "Dead in Christ" or "those who sleep in Jesus" are just those who are unaware of the extent of what we have been given by the Spirit. Firstly Grace, and beyond that, the ability to be aware of Spiritually discerned things.
To meet the Lord in the air and to be caught up in the clouds is to be given true Spiritual experiences. These experiences are given via the spiritual gifts such as discernment of spirits, understanding, wisdom, prophecy, (which can be fortelling future events or understanding scripture) knowledge

"we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord."

To "remain" and to be "ever with the Lord" is to realize that we are not separated from the Lord by our screw-ups or by anything else;

Rom 8:38 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Below is the revelation of Margaret Macdonald. It is the closest thing I have ever seen in print to what I believe.
It is difficult to put these things into words, but she has done a better job than I could.
Suffice it to say that I am of the belief that both the rapture and the tribulation are internal affairs. No one is going to disappear. There may be outer signs also earthquakes, wars etc. But these events pale in comparison to the inner events alluded to.

Much in the book of Revelation has to do with dying. Why?

Of what importance is it and what difference would it make between being stung to death by a bug that has the face of a lion and the tail of a scorpion or to walk out our door and get run over by a garbage truck? Dead is dead!

It is the inner realities that are the "Big News" here. Spiritual realities.
The Spiritual forces at work in the world around us and the opportunity and ability to be aware of these forces (both goood and evil) is what I look for.
The Bible is all about waking up,.. rising from the dead. (WE are the dead until we are "born from above")
It is our responsibility to remain awake and continue to awaken further after we recieve the Spirit. Not to get born again and immediately go back to sleep.

The Revelation of the Coming
(Margaret Macdonald's Revelation)
Margaret Macdonald has often been either upheld as a visionary, or blamed for "inventing" the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. This is a very complicated matter, and people tend to take opposite sides without knowing many facts. Margaret Macdonald, a young Christian living in Port Glasgow, Scotland certainly received a revelation which was then written and re-written, circulated and first published in 1840, some ten years later.
Not long after her revelation, she wrote down her account of everything and sent hand-written copies of it to a number of Christian leaders.

MARGARET'S REVELATION
"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'
I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.
I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.
I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.
Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.'
'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.
Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.
I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.
I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.
I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.
I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.
I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - [This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus]; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.
The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.
[The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept].
I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.
When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.
I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.
This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.
Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''


Bob

[joel]

Joe......I stopped by for a quick visit, and reply to your post by the figure below;

The Lord Jesus Christ----Himself, in His physical person
l
l (lines underneath Him signify His descent)
l
shall descend--------(katabano)
X--------------Meet (apantesis)
shall arise----------(anistemi)
l
l---------------Caught up together (harpazo hama sun autos)
l
Those who are in Christ (the lines above them signify an upward ascent)
(the dead in Christ will arise first, and then those who are alive will join them in the upward assembly)



Those "in Christ" are together. They are not separate as individuals as if one at a time. They do not just represent those in Christ during Paul's generation.

Individuals who die "in Christ" are the believers who have "died" (put in the grave) throughout the generations since He ascended.
Individuals who are alive at the His coming have not "died" (been put into the grave).
The assembly at the time of His descent is a joint assembly.

He has not descended in a physical presence (emprosthen)yet.

Joel

[TheForgiven]

Well friends. I'd say these were pretty good inputs regarding the Rapture. On one hand, we have a spiritual interpretation of the Rapture (or caught up), which Bob refers to as being born again (salvation), or as an awakening, as he refers to it. On the other hand, we have brother Joel's pro-literal interpretation, of which he feels will not be accomplished until the world is near its end (or at least prior to the Millennium), thus his view is based on a single moment in time; that is to say, a single Rapture event and never to happen again.

Both interpretations are interesting, but I'd say that Joel's interpretation would have more acceptance. Part of the reason is Bob has taken a Hyper Spiritual approach; meaning, he views the resurrection as what takes place when one is saved, or perhaps Baptized. Paul does state that when we are baptized into Christ, we die His death, and are also raised with Him through our faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead (Collossians 2:12)

I'm interested in more points of view on this teaching. The Rapture isn't something I engage very often, although I do have my interpretation, which is a combination of Bob's and Joel's.

For now, I'm interested in more opinions regarding the Rapture. Good job guys! :thumb: Anyone else?

Joe

[sojourner]

Hi guys,

I believe in a literal, physical Rapture, just as Joel does. I believe that it will take place near the end of the great tribulation, simultaneously with the second coming of Christ. This view is not popular in America at least, where the pre-tribulation rapture position dominates. I thought I would post some food for thought on this, the thoughts of Corrie Ten Boom, quoted below.

Ben



The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred; yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, 'In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.' We too, are to be overcomers — bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting 'Hallelujah! Hallelujah!' for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, 'He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.' This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive — but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. 'Yes, the Lord will heal me,' Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are some of the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, 'Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated — raptured.' Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes — to stand and not faint.

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, 'Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, 'Nothing could be any worse than today.' But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy:

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you; on their part evil is spoken of, but on your part He is glorified (1 Peter 3:14).

I found myself saying, 'Hallelujah! Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!'

In America, the churches sing, 'Let the congregation escape tribulation,' but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone, more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, 'Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?'

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

'When I was a little girl,' I said, 'I went to my father and said, ‘Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.’'

'Tell me,' said Father, 'When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?'

'No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.'

'That is right,' my father said, 'and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need — just in time....'

My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution? First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of history, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution, we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian’s life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

'When I am weak, then I shall be strong,' the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord; we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

'Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him,' for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!

Corrie ten Boom—1974

[Bob May]

Well friends. I'd say these were pretty good inputs regarding the Rapture. On one hand, we have a spiritual interpretation of the Rapture (or caught up), which Bob refers to as being born again (salvation), or as an awakening, as he refers to it.
Both interpretations are interesting, but I'd say that Joel's interpretation would have more acceptance. Part of the reason is Bob has taken a Hyper Spiritual approach; meaning, he views the resurrection as what takes place when one is saved, or perhaps Baptized.
I'm interested in more points of view on this teaching. The Rapture isn't something I engage very often, although I do have my interpretation, which is a combination of Bob's and Joel's.

For now, I'm interested in more opinions regarding the Rapture. Good job guys! :thumb: Anyone else?

Joe

Hi Joe,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I am not equating being "caught up" with being born again. Only comparing, they are not "equal".

Neither can be comprehended by the carnal mind. We are called and believe by grace through faith. It is an earth shattering experience. From there we either remain wherein we are called, (by grace through faith) or we get the idea (either from ourselves or more often the church we attend) that,... "now that we are Christians what do have to we do?"
This can be a block in our way. It is not doing, but believing that got us where we now find ourselves.

If we are fortunate and try to understand our new situation we begin to realize that Grace is the key. And we begin to see that we must be vigilant to see that we do not fall from Grace and go back under the Law as the Galatians did. To remain in this awareness of Grace is to see much of Scripture reveal itself in that it all points to the Truth that we are under Grace and not to allow ourselves to be bewitched again into thinking that it is our works that tie us to God. It is not. It is His Grace.

It is by staying in this frame of mind that we begin to experience things beyond "normal" five sense reality.
Pentacost was an example of these things for us to show us some of these things. It was not just for those 120 souls there that day.
Signs in heaven and Wonders in the earth, Visions, Dreams, understanding unknown tongues, visitations etc.
There are other examples that seem to relate to being "caught up" into another realm. Or rapture. Paul speaks of it as Paradise in one place and the Third Heaven in another place. It does not say he vanished bodily and certainly not permanently if he had or he would not have been able to write about it. There was also Ezekiel and Enoch's experience, (though Enoch's experience seems to be permanent from what I can see.)

To be caught up in my opinion is to go to a higher realm. Heaven possibly. But higher definitely.
So, to make a long story short, Rapture or being "caught up" is not being born again, in my opinion, but they are both Spiritual experiences.
And to be "caught up" does not necessarily mean your body goes anywhere. It is your mind or consciousness that experiences a higher realm.

Bob

[joel]

When we are called of God, and, are granted the faith to believe what He has said about Christ, His sacrifice, focusing on His blood shed for our sins, Paul teaches that we are then...........[ in Christ ]. Some may call this one thing, and others another......but, as Paul teaches in Romans 1 - 4, you, the believer, have been "justified", and your sins are covered by His blood.

You are now "under grace" while in Christ.

under grace not---under law
[ in Christ ]------[ in Christ ].

Bob is correct in that we are to remain "under grace",
and especially not to go back "under law".
Nor are we to remain "in sin". These are the special, specific teachings of Romans 5, 6, & 7.

Now, during this era until He comes back to redeem our bodies, He is transforming us from the inside out. He does this through the tribulation, patience, experience, hope, love of God shed abroad in our hearts process described by Paul in the first portion of Romans 5.

In Romans 8, Paul describes the wondrous internal process being currently applied inwardly as we await the "adoption"....the redemption of the body.

Joel

[TheForgiven]

I appreciate the different posts you all have submitted. We’re certainly getting a pretty decent idea on the different interpretations of the Rapture, although we know there are other views I’m hoping someone would post.

I myself believe that the Rapture has already happened, in the first century just prior to Jerusalem being destroyed. I believe Paul knew that the resurrection hadn’t yet happened because he himself was still there. The concern was that the Christians in Corinth and in Thessalonica were afraid that they were left out, or perhaps had missed the coming of Christ. Paul explains to them, though in a silent way, that it couldn’t have happened because he was still there. However, he did express an opinion to the Romans that “The Lord is more nearer than what he originally believed….” Thus the atmosphere during those days was one of extreme anticipation and worry.

Now I stated that I believe the Resurrection took place in the first century, but this doesn’t mean that I believe some were “Taken” as many seem to teach, as though they were still alive. Perhaps they were “Changed in the twinkling of an eye” as Paul describes, but there’s no possible way to prove that it happened, or didn’t happen. Thus, I simply live by faith in the word that if Jesus said He would come back for them (For I will not leave you as orphans), then He kept His word, whether I was there to see it or not.

That is my standing so far. I’m interested in more of what you all have to offer.

Joe

[joel]

[in Christ]= all of those who being called of God are placed by God's spirit "in Christ".

Paul, in his first letter to those "in Christ" in Thessalonica indicated that there are two groups of people "in Christ".

[in Christ (those who have fallen asleep in Christ)(those who are alive and remain)in Christ]

The first group, (those who have fallen asleep in Christ) continues to grow in numbers as believers enter into the realm of Death.

The second group, (those who are alive and remain) is an ever changing group as well. Some are added as they are called of God. Some move to the other group when they expire.

According to your viewpoint, Joe, there must be yet a third group;
(those who are alive and remain after His coming), which would be all of us are alive today and are believers. Is this a fair assessment of what you are saying?

Joel

[Rose]

Hi All, :yo:

I believe as Joel said that there were two groups, but.....that was during the first century leading up to 70 AD. Paul was speaking specifically to those Thessalonians who had lost loved ones that had believed in Jesus to ease their concern.

These were the two groups of people.....

1) All those who had died from the beginning of the world. Some of whom were those who had died in the first century believing in Jesus, apparently their condition during this before 70 AD time, when things were in a state of transition with the Old was vanishing away, was one of being in Jesus....but not yet with Him in Heaven, whereas now all who die in Christ go directly to be with Him in Heaven.

2) The second group at Paul's time were those who would be still alive at the time of Christs coming in 70 AD. Their standing with Christ at the time of His coming would not precede all those who were dead in Christ up to that point.....and upon their death they would go directly to Heaven to be with the Lord.

I believe that is the case now with all who believe in Christ. From 70 AD on when the Kingdom of God was fully ushered in, upon the death of this body we immediately go to be with the Lord, there is no longer a state of "sleeping in Jesus".

Rose

[joel]

Is it true that all who believe in Christ are placed "in Christ"?

Then, if that is true, all who do not believe in Christ are "not in Christ".

Therefore, there are two groups of people (regardless of when they "lived");

Those who are [in Christ], and those who are [not in Christ].

Joel

[Rose]

From 70 AD on there are two groups, those who are in Christ and those who are not......that is to say,those who are the New Jerusalem, and those who are outside the gates.

Though the offer of living water to all who are outside the gates still applies, whether it be in this life or after, for the gates of the city are always open.

Rose

[TheForgiven]

From 70 AD on there are two groups, those who are in Christ and those who are not......that is to say,those who are the New Jerusalem, and those who are outside the gates.

Though the offer of living water to all who are outside the gates still applies, whether it be in this life or after, for the gates of the city are always open.

Rose
__________________

Right on the money! :thumb: This explains why some of our Dispensational friends believe that the New Jerusalem hasn't yet been revealed/established. They believe that as long as sinners are among the populace (In the world) then the New Jerusalem is not yet here. If they understood the metaphoric expressions regarding the gate, the city, and outside the gate, they'd clearly see that the sinners abiding outside the gate are those who are not permitted to enter into the Church. In short, the Church is the New Jerusalem that is ruled by Christ.

Good post sister.

Joe