The Word of God-Shadow and Reality

[gregoryfl]

The phrase "the Word of God" occurs nearly 50 times in the New Testament, and is used innumerable times by Christians in books, sermons and ordinary speech. Do Christians use this phrase in the same sense as the Bible does? I believe that most of the time the answer is NO. Does it matter? I believe YES.

It is dangerous to use any phrase or word in a different sense from the Bible. Doing so generally springs from a wrong understanding of spiritual truth, which it in turn perpetuates and reinforces. For example people who use the word priest to mean an ordained member of some denomination, are generally blind to the true nature of priesthood. Those who continually use the word church to refer to a building or a denomination, usually have little idea of the true church of God.

We cannot afford to adapt the meanings of words and phrases used in the Bible to suit our own traditions. It is pointless believing in the inspiration and authority of scripture and then using its words with meanings entirely different from their original.

In common parlance the phrase "the Word of God", or often simply "the Word", means the Bible. This is standard terminology among almost all who believe in the inspiration and authority of the Bible. Quote from Robert Beecham.

I have always been brought up to believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I think though that believing that (to the extent that they do) has led to some grave misunderstandings, and also unfortunately to idolatry. I now believe that the Bible contains the Word of God, but that the Word of God is none other than Jesus Christ. The Bible is the physical shadow of the reality, Jesus. Here is where I came to that conclusion.

When Jesus or others referred to what was written down in what we call the Bible, they used the term "Scripture."

Mt 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures..."

Mt 22:29 But Jesus answered them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures..."

Mt 26:54 How then would the Scriptures be fulfilled...
Lk 24:27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life...

Ac 17:2 Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

Ac 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Ac 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus. He was mighty in the Scriptures.

Ro 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through patience and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

2Ti 3:15 But you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

What then, is the Word of God? I believe that as far as I can tell, in every instance, the Word of God is the word, or expression, that proceeds out of the mouth of God, which is now embodied and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:13 plainly tells us: He [Jesus] is clothed in a garment sprinkled with blood. His name is called, "The Word of God."

Scripture records the Word of God, and it confirms what God has spoken or will speak, but is not the Word of God in and of itself. Not making that distinction has unfortunately made the physical Scriptures an idol for man.

People do this by making the Bible a very profitable business today, with top-grain leather covers, gold gilded edges, fancy paper. And people revere that book. You see people getting a family Bible. Why? To put on a table somewhere showing off what they have. How pitiful. It gets treated like the ark of the covenant, or any other thing designed to point to Christ.

One of the Scriptures I quoted shows the relationship between the Word of God and Scripture. Notice again Acts 17. These Bereans received the Word. What word? What was the message to them? Was it not the message of the Christ? They received Him by receiving the message concerning him, the Word. To receive the Word is to receive Jesus. What role did the Scriptures play? They were examining the Scriptures to see whether these things [the Word they received] were so. The Scriptures served its purpose to confirm the spoken Word. It is not to replace, but confirm.

In the Tanakh we see the phrase, "The word of Yahweh" or "The word of God" came to someone, to say something to them, used often. This fits right in with the true understanding of the Word of God as being Jesus Christ, the spoken word of God. A physical book on stone or parchment isn't what came to them to tell them things, but God spoke to them by means of his Word, whether manifest in an angel or a vision or other such way. That Word we now know "became flesh and lived among us." Jn 1:14.
Hebrews 11:3 says that "By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by [what?, the Bible that we hold in our hand? No, but by] the Word of God." Yes, again, it is his spoken word, Jesus Christ.

If this be true, then let's see some familiar Scriptures with new meaning.

Mt 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"

Was he speaking about Scripture per se? Jesus was quoting from Deuteronomy, where he told the Israelites this: "He humbled you, and allowed you to be hungry, and fed you with manna, which you didn't know, neither did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh."-vs 3.

Couple this with Jesus' words recorded in John 6:31-35: Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness. As it is written, "He gave them bread out of heaven to eat." Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They therefore said to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."

When Yahweh fed them physical manna in the wilderness, he was doing that to show them and us a spiritual reality. That manna did not come from Moses; in other words, it did not come from man's effort from the ground. This manna is not referring to Scripture. It came directly from God himself. God spoke, and it fell to the earth. It was manna that proceeded out of the mouth of Yahweh. In other words, it was the Word of God, in physical shadow.
Who was the reality that the shadow pointed to? Jesus said that he was the bread of life. He was the reality of that manna in the wilderness. As we eat of him, we have life and never hunger.

So when Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, he was in essence saying, live by Jesus. He is our life. Our sustenance.

Ep 6:17 And take...the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.
Does this mean we should hold a Bible in our hands as a sword? No. The scriptures are not some good luck charm that we use to ward off evil or do battle with. We are to take up Jesus Christ, the Word of God. And in so doing, he will speak to us his words for battle. Those words may be Scripture, but they often will not be. In either case, they are his word. The sword of the Spirit referred to here is none other than the sword Jesus came to bring.

Matt 10:34 Don't think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn't come to send peace, but a sword.

This sword is further defined in our next Scripture:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This is one of the most often used Scriptures to say that the Bible is alive and does all these things. But consider this...In the previous verse we are admonished to be diligent to enter into a rest, which is none other than our Lord. He is our sabbath rest. We as believers can either do works that come out of our efforts-our souls, or we can do works out of him living his life through us-our spirit, which is equivalent to resting in him. The reason we are told to do this is because the Word of God, Jesus, is alive and active; out of his mouth is a sharp two-edged sword. He can tell whether what we do is from the soul, which is our own efforts, or from the spirit, our resting in him. In other words, he divides between them. He can discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. The next verse also adds weight to this understanding when it says "there is not creature that is hidden from his [the Word of God, not Scripture] sight but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Does Jesus have a two-edged sword? John saw it. Hear what he says:
Re 1:15 He has seven stars in his right hand. Out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword.

Re 2:12,16 ...He who has a two-edged swords says these things:...repent therefore, or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Re 19:15 Out of his mouth proceeds a sharp double-edged sword...

Re 19:21 the rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse...

1Pe 1:23 Having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the Word of God, which lives and remains forever.

We are born again through Jesus Christ, the Word of God, being born in us. He thus becomes our life (Co 3:4). And gradually he is formed in us in much travail (Ga 4:19).

One Scripture that some might say shows that the Scripture is called the Word of God is found in Mark 7:13 where Jesus said the Pharisees and scribes were "making void the word of God by [their] tradition..." They say that the word of God made void was the command in Scripture concerning the honoring of father and mother. Therefore, to them, the Scripture is the word of God. However, in looking at the context, I see a different picture.

Starting at verse 7, we read: "But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the traditions of men -the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things." He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother;' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'If a man tells his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban, that is to say, given to God;" then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this."

Notice the bold words. They all highlight the same thing, a contrast between what is spoken by God verses what is spoken by man. Therefore Jesus was using the term "word of God" to refer to specifically what God had said, his words to Moses to Israel. He was not using that phrase as a general term to describe the Scriptures as a whole, any more than he used the term "commandment of God" in that way.

I love the scriptures. I study them and read them often. And they keep pushing and pointing and directing me, not to themselves, but to our Lord, Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

Ron

[Bob May]

Hi Ron,

Excellent post and subject matter.

"We cannot afford to adapt the meanings of words and phrases used in the Bible to suit our own traditions. It is pointless believing in the inspiration and authority of scripture and then using its words with meanings entirely different from their original."

Another "side effect" of this habit is that we lose all ability to communicate these deep subjects to one another. One person speaks one thing and another hears something completely different.

I like the fact that you use the concept of this world, the world of the soul being the "Shadow."
That is Scripturally correct.

The Word as a "two edged sword" divides the soul from spirit. You have, by pulling together these ideas and verses, demonstrated just that. And also you have demonstrated that the Scripture does a very good job at defining it's own terms.

We can see this divide within ourselves and between each other. When the Word comes the blind are made to see and those that see are made blind. Jesus came speaking of the Spirit and in so doing exposed those who only heard at a soul level of understanding. And at the same time opened a whole new level to others who were open to what he had to say.

Matt 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD.
35 For I am come TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household "

Lu 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, YEA, AND EVEN HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.

Notice that without this division of soul from spirit we CANNOT BE HIS DISCIPLES (Or learn from him). He does not say that he won't allow it, he says it cannot be.

We must listen from the level from which a thing is being taught at.

Jn 8:43 "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

These things are spiritually discerned.

Good thought provoking post, Ron.

Bob

[gregoryfl]

Matt 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD.
35 For I am come TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household "

Lu 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, YEA, AND EVEN HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.

Notice that without this division of soul from spirit we CANNOT BE HIS DISCIPLES (Or learn from him). He does not say that he won't allow it, he says it cannot be.

BobI appreciated how you brought out the understanding of the dividing of soulish things and spiritual things in those scriptures you quoted. I have walked most of my Christian life trying to live it out in my intellect and how humbling it has been to see that such an endeavor is impossible. While our intellect as well as our actions are meant to be an expression mentally and physically FROM the Life within, that of our Lord, I have most of my life tried to make them the means TO Life, and missed so much in the process. Thankfully though, in Father's control, even those moments of human failure reveal the truth, all ultimately to His glory, a glory that we all share.

Thanks again for the feedback,

Ron

[shawn]

Hey Ron,

You're a deeper thinker....I like that. I agree with you concerning the Word of God.

Shawn

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The phrase "the Word of God" occurs nearly 50 times in the New Testament, and is used innumerable times by Christians in books, sermons and ordinary speech. Do Christians use this phrase in the same sense as the Bible does? I believe that most of the time the answer is NO. Does it matter? I believe YES.

It is dangerous to use any phrase or word in a different sense from the Bible. Doing so generally springs from a wrong understanding of spiritual truth, which it in turn perpetuates and reinforces. For example people who use the word priest to mean an ordained member of some denomination, are generally blind to the true nature of priesthood. Those who continually use the word church to refer to a building or a denomination, usually have little idea of the true church of God.

We cannot afford to adapt the meanings of words and phrases used in the Bible to suit our own traditions. It is pointless believing in the inspiration and authority of scripture and then using its words with meanings entirely different from their original.

In common parlance the phrase "the Word of God", or often simply "the Word", means the Bible. This is standard terminology among almost all who believe in the inspiration and authority of the Bible. Quote from Robert Beecham.

I have always been brought up to believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I think though that believing that (to the extent that they do) has led to some grave misunderstandings, and also unfortunately to idolatry. I now believe that the Bible contains the Word of God, but that the Word of God is none other than Jesus Christ. The Bible is the physical shadow of the reality, Jesus. Here is where I came to that conclusion.

When Jesus or others referred to what was written down in what we call the Bible, they used the term "Scripture."

Mt 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures..."

Mt 22:29 But Jesus answered them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures..."

Mt 26:54 How then would the Scriptures be fulfilled...
Lk 24:27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life...

Ac 17:2 Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

Ac 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Ac 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus. He was mighty in the Scriptures.

Ro 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through patience and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

2Ti 3:15 But you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

What then, is the Word of God? I believe that as far as I can tell, in every instance, the Word of God is the word, or expression, that proceeds out of the mouth of God, which is now embodied and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:13 plainly tells us: He [Jesus] is clothed in a garment sprinkled with blood. His name is called, "The Word of God."

Scripture records the Word of God, and it confirms what God has spoken or will speak, but is not the Word of God in and of itself. Not making that distinction has unfortunately made the physical Scriptures an idol for man.

People do this by making the Bible a very profitable business today, with top-grain leather covers, gold gilded edges, fancy paper. And people revere that book. You see people getting a family Bible. Why? To put on a table somewhere showing off what they have. How pitiful. It gets treated like the ark of the covenant, or any other thing designed to point to Christ.

One of the Scriptures I quoted shows the relationship between the Word of God and Scripture. Notice again Acts 17. These Bereans received the Word. What word? What was the message to them? Was it not the message of the Christ? They received Him by receiving the message concerning him, the Word. To receive the Word is to receive Jesus. What role did the Scriptures play? They were examining the Scriptures to see whether these things [the Word they received] were so. The Scriptures served its purpose to confirm the spoken Word. It is not to replace, but confirm.

In the Tanakh we see the phrase, "The word of Yahweh" or "The word of God" came to someone, to say something to them, used often. This fits right in with the true understanding of the Word of God as being Jesus Christ, the spoken word of God. A physical book on stone or parchment isn't what came to them to tell them things, but God spoke to them by means of his Word, whether manifest in an angel or a vision or other such way. That Word we now know "became flesh and lived among us." Jn 1:14.
Hebrews 11:3 says that "By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by [what?, the Bible that we hold in our hand? No, but by] the Word of God." Yes, again, it is his spoken word, Jesus Christ.

If this be true, then let's see some familiar Scriptures with new meaning.

Mt 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'"

Was he speaking about Scripture per se? Jesus was quoting from Deuteronomy, where he told the Israelites this: "He humbled you, and allowed you to be hungry, and fed you with manna, which you didn't know, neither did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh."-vs 3.

Couple this with Jesus' words recorded in John 6:31-35: Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness. As it is written, "He gave them bread out of heaven to eat." Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They therefore said to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."

When Yahweh fed them physical manna in the wilderness, he was doing that to show them and us a spiritual reality. That manna did not come from Moses; in other words, it did not come from man's effort from the ground. This manna is not referring to Scripture. It came directly from God himself. God spoke, and it fell to the earth. It was manna that proceeded out of the mouth of Yahweh. In other words, it was the Word of God, in physical shadow.
Who was the reality that the shadow pointed to? Jesus said that he was the bread of life. He was the reality of that manna in the wilderness. As we eat of him, we have life and never hunger.

So when Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, he was in essence saying, live by Jesus. He is our life. Our sustenance.

Ep 6:17 And take...the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.
Does this mean we should hold a Bible in our hands as a sword? No. The scriptures are not some good luck charm that we use to ward off evil or do battle with. We are to take up Jesus Christ, the Word of God. And in so doing, he will speak to us his words for battle. Those words may be Scripture, but they often will not be. In either case, they are his word. The sword of the Spirit referred to here is none other than the sword Jesus came to bring.

Matt 10:34 Don't think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn't come to send peace, but a sword.

This sword is further defined in our next Scripture:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This is one of the most often used Scriptures to say that the Bible is alive and does all these things. But consider this...In the previous verse we are admonished to be diligent to enter into a rest, which is none other than our Lord. He is our sabbath rest. We as believers can either do works that come out of our efforts-our souls, or we can do works out of him living his life through us-our spirit, which is equivalent to resting in him. The reason we are told to do this is because the Word of God, Jesus, is alive and active; out of his mouth is a sharp two-edged sword. He can tell whether what we do is from the soul, which is our own efforts, or from the spirit, our resting in him. In other words, he divides between them. He can discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. The next verse also adds weight to this understanding when it says "there is not creature that is hidden from his [the Word of God, not Scripture] sight but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Does Jesus have a two-edged sword? John saw it. Hear what he says:
Re 1:15 He has seven stars in his right hand. Out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword.

Re 2:12,16 ...He who has a two-edged swords says these things:...repent therefore, or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Re 19:15 Out of his mouth proceeds a sharp double-edged sword...

Re 19:21 the rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse...

1Pe 1:23 Having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the Word of God, which lives and remains forever.

We are born again through Jesus Christ, the Word of God, being born in us. He thus becomes our life (Co 3:4). And gradually he is formed in us in much travail (Ga 4:19).

One Scripture that some might say shows that the Scripture is called the Word of God is found in Mark 7:13 where Jesus said the Pharisees and scribes were "making void the word of God by [their] tradition..." They say that the word of God made void was the command in Scripture concerning the honoring of father and mother. Therefore, to them, the Scripture is the word of God. However, in looking at the context, I see a different picture.

Starting at verse 7, we read: "But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For you set aside the commandment of God, and hold tightly to the traditions of men -the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things." He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother;' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'If a man tells his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban, that is to say, given to God;" then you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother, making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this."

Notice the bold words. They all highlight the same thing, a contrast between what is spoken by God verses what is spoken by man. Therefore Jesus was using the term "word of God" to refer to specifically what God had said, his words to Moses to Israel. He was not using that phrase as a general term to describe the Scriptures as a whole, any more than he used the term "commandment of God" in that way.

I love the scriptures. I study them and read them often. And they keep pushing and pointing and directing me, not to themselves, but to our Lord, Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

Ron
Those are excellent insights Ron, but I see things a little differently. Given the strong connection between Scripture and it's source in the Living Word of God, I have found myself happy to call one the "Written Word of God" and the other the "Living Word of God." Thus we have the necessary distinction so we don't idolize the Written Word while simulataneously acknowledging it's true nature as the unique record of the Living Word.

What do you think of that?

Richard

[gregoryfl]

Those are excellent insights Ron, but I see things a little differently. Given the strong connection between Scripture and it's source in the Living Word of God, I have found myself happy to call one the "Written Word of God" and the other the "Living Word of God." Thus we have the necessary distinction so we don't idolize the Written Word while simulataneously acknowledging it's true nature as the unique record of the Living Word.

What do you think of that?

RichardRichard,

Yes, that is a nice distinction you bring out. While I do generally refer to the Writings as Scripture, it is most certainly the Word of God.

Of course, we should not make what we refer to it as into some legalistic thing, and I hope that no one gets that idea from what I wrote. I just notice that when people think of the Word of God, they do not usually think of our Lord, but of the written Word only, the book we call the Bible.

When I came to understand what I have about Jesus being the Word of God, and how all the verses that use that term legitimately refer to him, it opened up a whole new vista of understanding for me about the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of the distinction that exists between the "Word of God" and "Scripture" found in the written Word of God.

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,

Yes, that is a nice distinction you bring out. While I do generally refer to the Writings as Scripture, it is most certainly the Word of God.

Of course, we should not make what we refer to it as into some legalistic thing, and I hope that no one gets that idea from what I wrote. I just notice that when people think of the Word of God, they do not usually think of our Lord, but of the written Word only, the book we call the Bible.

When I came to understand what I have about Jesus being the Word of God, and how all the verses that use that term legitimately refer to him, it opened up a whole new vista of understanding for me about the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of the distinction that exists between the "Word of God" and "Scripture" found in the written Word of God.

Ron
Hey Ron,

That was a real gem: "I just notice that when people think of the Word of God, they do not usually think of our Lord, but of the written Word only, the book we call the Bible."

Excellent point! :thumb:

Richard

[Bob May]

Those are excellent insights Ron, but I see things a little differently. Given the strong connection between Scripture and it's source in the Living Word of God, I have found myself happy to call one the "Written Word of God" and the other the "Living Word of God." Thus we have the necessary distinction so we don't idolize the Written Word while simulataneously acknowledging it's true nature as the unique record of the Living Word.

What do you think of that?

Richard

Hi Richard,

Good point. I look at the "Living Word of God" as being an actual level of understanding. The Qabalists say there are four levels of reading Scripture. I think there are more, but my point here is when it actually "speaks to us" it is the "Living Word."
I'm sure we have all experienced this as when a new understanding of a verse all of a sudden "reveals itself" to us. It may be something we have read 100 times before and never really understood it.
It is a "Spiritual Gift" just as wisdom and understanding are. And it brings to mind when Jesus breathed on the disciples and opened their understanding of the Scriptures.

[Bob May]

Hi all,

This thread leads me to another aspect of this shadow and reality idea.
I look at it like this.

Hebrews 11
1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the WORLDS were FRAMED by the WORD OF GOD, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

God also "framed the scriptures" in the same way. Or using the same patterns so to speak.

Now Budhists will tell you that this world is "illusion." I think of it rather that the world is a book that God wrote. And just as He used allegory in writing the Bible, He used it in the same way in the creation of this world.
Things like marriage being an analogy to union with God and fatherhood being an analogy to understanding our relationship with God.

Shadows are not useless in this regard. They do tell us things about the general outline of what is being projected. They do not show color or inner detail but show us something IS There. "Evidence of things not seen."

So, just as we can look at Scripture and be enlightened as to the New Covenant being hidden within the Old, so can we recieve the same revelations in looking at the world around us. The world around us being "shadows" of the spiritual "reality." Allegory.

Ro 1:20 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

I believe that this is the way Jesus looked at the world and a good practice for us to try and emulate.

Lu 12:24 CONSIDER the RAVENS: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

My point is that this world is framed of symbols. the symbols point to the New Covenant and always have. Those alive in the days before Pentacost, (Abraham Jacob , David, etc.) saw it "afar off" as it were because the time was not yet here. They did not receive "the promise" but spoke about it for our benefit.

Job 12:7 "But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD HATH WROUGHT THIS?"

I hope I'm not off the subject here,.. I don't think I am. Just taking it a step further, I think.

Bob

[gregoryfl]

Bob, Yes, this goes right in line concerning all of that which is shadow and reality. What you have shared is a very insightful look at how truly it is that our Father has chosen to take spiritual realities and to, like a master artist, paint them in pictures in two ways:

1) the things he made-his creation.

2) In word pictures by means of scripture.

Also, regarding the things I was sharing regarding the Word of God always pointing to Jesus the reality, this scripture as well shows us that very nicely. Here is how I have translated Heb 1:1-3:

Now faithfulness is conviction concerning those things that are hoped for, as if it were those things in action; and revelation of those things that are not seen. For by this, the elders obtained testimony. By faithfulness, we understand that the horizons have been framed out by the word of the Mighty One, with this result: What is seen has not been made out of things which are seen.

While the traditional understanding of this verse is that it is speaking of the universe being created, I would like to offer another understanding. The word translated "universe" or "worlds" is aionas. It is the plural form of the word that some translations more accurately translate as eon, or age. It speaks in picture form of something on the horizon, the details of which are not clearly seen, the length of which is unspecified. In this case, it is speaking of multiple periods of time, during which God completes some part or parts of his purpose. It has this consistent meaning in all 30 uses of it in the new testament.

I see Hebrews 11 showing the defining of faith, then in verse 3, the writer zooms out, showing the all encompassing periods of time during which God accomplishes his purposes by means of the Word of God, then he zooms back in to show the specifics of those things in time and space, starting with Abel.

God has a purpose, an intent with regard to the aionas, or horizonal periods of time. And how are these accomplished? This is plainly stated by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians, where he writes:

according to the intention of the horizons which he made in Mashiyach Yahushuah our Master...Eph 3:11.

Yes, that intention is being carried out IN CHRIST JESUS. This ties in wonderfully with the scripture you quoted in Hebrews 11:3, for it is BY THE WORD OF GOD, Jesus Christ, that the periods of time-in which God works his plan out in time and space-are framed out. These pictures have been recorded in the written word so that “the ancient ones”, those living long ago, could have testimony given to them concerning those realities, realities which were not yet realized from our point of view.

As you point out, truly those events in scripture, as well as the various aspects of life we see in the world around us that are recorded there, all point to that ultimate purpose, wherein God unites himself with, by gathering all things together again to himself by means of, and in Christ, the Word of God.

Truly the Scriptures are God's picture book, so we can see all that Father has for us, whom he loves so preciously. Thanks for taking it another step further Bob.:thumb:

Ron

[Bob May]

Hi Ron,


I think you lost me here.

"What is seen has not been made out of things which are not seen."

"Through faith we understand that the WORLDS were FRAMED by the WORD OF GOD, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

I think you turned this backwards. The manifest Universe, (everything we know) IS made of the Invisible. The invisible is the eternal. But what is eternal can be seen after a manner by contemplating the visible (appearance of things.)

I have an example;

Newton's LAWS deal with the world of Cause and effect. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction., etc.
In recent years we have been disovering things about quantum physics that seem to act according to another set of rules or Laws.
Now we would not have been able to ascertain that there is another set of Laws except that the technology has evolved enough for us to have become aware of these sub-atomic particles. Those things we were unaware of in say 1950 have now "Appeared" to us. (At least to our quantum physicists)

This physical Reality that I just described is also a physical Analogy or Allegory of a Spiritual Reality. God did not just invent those subatomic particles. We have just recently become aware of them.

But to what is that Analogy pointing?

We start out under the Law. When we believe, we are "born from above", God gives us the technology (gifts of the Spirit) to begin to unravel another set of Laws. The Law of Grace,.. the Perfect Law of Liberty. Things have "Appeared" to us that we were not aware of before. That God is not mad at anyone.
Something has changed in our instruments of perception that allow us to begin to percieve Grace where before we could Only see cause and effect Law.

Jesus said that unless a man be born from above (or of the Spirit) he cannot SEE the kingdom of heaven.
Sarah said, the Lord has made me to laugh so that All Those that HEAR shall laugh with me.

When we are "under the Law" the entire Bible both Old and New Covenants appear to be rules and regulations to us.
When we are "under Grace" we can begin to see that the entire Bible speaks of freedom.

2ti 2:15 "STUDY to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

This was quoted in my old church regularly. What it said to me was if I don't study, god disapproved of me. And the funny thing was I could never study enough to please God. So it made me feel ashamed.

After I started getting an awareness of Grace and that it applied to me, this verse meant something completely different to me.
It was giving me the REASON TO STUDY. To show that I WAS APPROVED OF GOD. And that I NEEDED NOT BE ASHAMED!!!

The verse did not change. Not really. What changed was my instruments of perception. By God's Grace.
That is the Two Edged Sword dividing Soul from Spirit. Rightly dividing the word of Truth. Two Realities. Both True.
One reality leads to condemnation and death.
One leads to freedom and Life.

We pick which one we want. God does not force it down our throats.

[gregoryfl]

Bob,

Thanks for that correction. I was typing it out instead of copying and pasting from my copy on the computer. I changed it to reflect what it actually says. It should read:

What is seen has not been made out of things which are seen.

Good eye. :thumb:

[gregoryfl]

Hi Ron,
2ti 2:15 "STUDY to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

This was quoted in my old church regularly. What it said to me was if I don't study, god disapproved of me. And the funny thing was I could never study enough to please God. So it made me feel ashamed.

After I started getting an awareness of Grace and that it applied to me, this verse meant something completely different to me.
It was giving me the REASON TO STUDY. To show that I WAS APPROVED OF GOD. And that I NEEDED NOT BE ASHAMED!!!

The verse did not change. Not really. What changed was my instruments of perception. By God's Grace.
That is the Two Edged Sword dividing Soul from Spirit. Rightly dividing the word of Truth. Two Realities. Both True.
One reality leads to condemnation and death.
One leads to freedom and Life.
Hey Bob,

Wow! How nice to see that someone else sees this as well. Here is an old post on another board where I shared the same basic idea:


Let us therefore labor to enter into that rest...

That is how most translations render Hebrews 4:11, in one form or another. As I have been recently working through my translating of that book, I came across something that I believe throws a whole different light on understanding this. The primary meaning of the word for "labor" is "to use speed, to be eager." How different that is from "labor" or "do your best or utmost".

Hence I have decided to translate the verse in this way:

Let us therefore hurry to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

I am considering other ideas that may better communicate the thought, but what I see is not that we are to try our best, or to make effort at all, per se, but to not delay. Rather, to hurry, be quick, and eager (this has to do with the mind, not actions) to enter that rest. And how do we enter it?

For we who have believed do enter into that rest...

It is through believing what God has said that we enter into, or experience, that rest. It is there, has always been from the moment God rested, and he has always left it open for us to experience it with him. Not from our laboring or struggling, but from simply taking him at his word. Israel was offered that rest, but because they did not believe it they missed out.

By the way, as a brief note, the same word is used in another misunderstood verse, 2Ti 2:15

Be diligent to present yourself approved by the Mighty One, a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed, properly handling the word of truth.

Here again, people tend to think of effort here, doing our best, one way or another. But I have rendered it this way:

Hurry to present yourself approved by the Mighty One...

it speaks, not of effort, but rather of not wasting time, that which has to do with a mindset. In this case, the mindset is to see yourself as approved by God, and thus present yourself in God's presence in that way. This is way different than doing your best to make yourself approved by God by what you do.

The difference is between presenting yourself as who you already are by believing it, as opposed to trying to make yourself into what you should be, but aren't yet. I personally believe the first is God's thought, the second is man's.

Ron

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Good point. I look at the "Living Word of God" as being an actual level of understanding. The Qabalists say there are four levels of reading Scripture. I think there are more, but my point here is when it actually "speaks to us" it is the "Living Word."
I'm sure we have all experienced this as when a new understanding of a verse all of a sudden "reveals itself" to us. It may be something we have read 100 times before and never really understood it.
It is a "Spiritual Gift" just as wisdom and understanding are. And it brings to mind when Jesus breathed on the disciples and opened their understanding of the Scriptures.
Hey there Bob,

I have the same sense about how Scripture "comes alive" - I attribute that to the Spirit of God working within our spirit as we look into the Divine Word. But I wouldn't think of that as a "level" of interpretation like the four levels in the Jewish tradition (PRDS) because that view seems to be a description of various approaches to Scripture whereas the "Living Word" is a description of the person of Jesus Christ Himself.

Great chatting bro!

Richard

[Bob May]

Hey there Bob,

I have the same sense about how Scripture "comes alive" - I attribute that to the Spirit of God working within our spirit as we look into the Divine Word. But I wouldn't think of that as a "level" of interpretation like the four levels in the Jewish tradition (PRDS) because that view seems to be a description of various approaches to Scripture whereas the "Living Word" is a description of the person of Jesus Christ Himself.

Great chatting bro!

Richard

Hi Richard,

I think the reason that the Jewish Scholars don't count it as a way of approaching scripture is mainly because they do not believe it exists having never experienced Jesus teaching them.
Of couse I am speaking in absolutes here. Some Jewish Qabalists have converted to Christianity because of Jesus' name being found in Genesis. But that does not get much "press" in Jewish writings. Suprise!!
As far as "level" goes maybe that is not the best word, I'll grant you.

But I do believe it is a way to approach scripture. As well as a means of understanding it. I would say it's the only way to understand it in the way it was ultimately meant to be understood.
I always look at scripture as if I don't understand it. In other words there is always more there than I am seeing. And I also know that if it is a question that is important to me and I keep it in the back of my mind, the answer will come to me eventually.

What son believes that his father would give him a serpent when he asks for a fish?

When these insights do come, you are correct, it is "the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are the children of God." That is our "surety" or "earnest" like earnest money in a contract/covenant of buying a house for example. Once you recieve it, you know the deal is sealed.

2co 1:21 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Rom 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

These little "Revelations" are not "little." In my opinion they are the "token" of the New Covenant just as circumcision was the "token" of the Old.

God's signature in our hearts.
The fulfillment of the prophesy "they shall all be taught of God."
Big changes in us, big promises and the promise of more to come.

Bob