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gregoryfl
09-12-2008, 11:03 AM
"Beloved, we are now the sons of the Mighty One, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he does appear, we shall be like him; because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Sometime long ago, a comparatively small piece of granite got pushed up out of the ground outside what would one day be called Atlanta, Georgia. Because it juts out so prominently it attracts attention. According to the promo, Stone Mountain attracts approximately 4 million tourists per year. Now, do you think all 4,000,000 of those people travel to Atlanta just to see a big rock? Hardly. For features have been built on and around it in order to attract a much greater crowd. Things like a big carving on the side of the rock, a sky lift, lazer-light shows, etc.

The problem with “attractions” is that the exploitation of such anomalies does damage not only to the thing itself but also to the surrounding area. The land around it merely becomes the road one has to travel in order to get there. Man-made signs are erected for miles in every direction to let tourists know that there is something worth seeing in the area. Hotels and restaurants spring up to house and feed the influx of tourists who come to see the attraction. In order to get more dollars out of these walking moneybags more attractions are built around the theme of the exploited natural resource. The result is that no one really sees the surrounding area for what it is. And though you may imagine that we at least see the main attraction we have, instead, been caught up in the distorted hype.

The same distortion has caused us to set some people above others and call them "celebrities" or “clergy” while the rest of humanity is left in the shadows of the greatness of the machine that makes celebrities out of those who APPEAR more prominent.

The exact same thing has happened to Bible verses.

1 John 3:2 is one of those "tourist attractions" of the Bible. Along with a few other such verses we have become dazzled by the prospect of a "heavenly glory" that causes our lives to pale in comparison. And so we are left with the consolation that one day things will be all better ... and we trudge along with this "hope".
What if John never intended to create a "heaven-hype"? For stone masons, Stone Mountain is merely an announcement that the whole area is rich in unseen granite. What if John's mention of what "shall be" has a similar design to it? What if he wrote about a reality that WILL be seen in the future in order to assure us about that same reality that CANNOT be seen right now?

Now, I have no intention of reducing the reality of what SHALL be! No, no, not at all. For the full-grown expression of a life reveals what is usually not recognized in its earlier stages of growth. In other words, nothing can develop FROM a life that is not contained IN that life.

Consider a tomato seed. It sprouts and grows and eventually produces tomatoes with seeds within each piece of fruit. The ripened tomato is no more "tomato" than the seed from which it grew. Now, would it be accurate to say that the seed is "less" than the fruit it bears? Does the fully-grown tomato cause you to think less of the seed or the young plant in any way? Is the tomato plant inferior until it eventually becomes something of worth? Or does the end result, instead, convince you that THE SEED CONTAINS THE TOMATO? And doesn't this truth give you a totally different perspective of the young stages of the tomato? The final product gives you a true estimation of the worth and nature of the seed and the young plant.

Then why do we get the opposite sense from John's words about the true worth and nature of those who will appear just like HIM? Hmm? Do we not know what it means to have been born of God? Do we not know that John turned our attention toward the APPEARANCE of our real life that's going to APPEAR EXACTLY LIKE HIS LIFE because AT THIS TIME IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK THAT WAY? It's NOW that we need to hear that the life within us is the same life that one day will be revealed as the exact reflection of His own.

Now, looking forward to a time when CIRCUMSTANCES are different from this world is one thing (and it gives much hope during times of hardship); but looking forward to a future life that is MADE OF something different from the life that is NOW within me has NOTHING to do with the truth of Christ. But this is ALL we see anymore from all the built up distortion of “heaven-hype”. Don't you recognize the difference? Don't you realize how you have been taught to look down upon your life here and now as if there was something inferior about it? How often do you think about "heaven" and gain the confidence that you are NOW as righteous as Christ? It doesn't happen, does it? But it is EXACTLY what John was writing about.

gregoryfl
09-12-2008, 07:19 PM
Thoughts anyone?

Rose
09-12-2008, 08:35 PM
"Beloved, we are now the sons of the Mighty One, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he does appear, we shall be like him; because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

Then why do we get the opposite sense from John's words about the true worth and nature of those who will appear just like HIM? Hmm? Do we not know what it means to have been born of God? Do we not know that John turned our attention toward the APPEARANCE of our real life that's going to APPEAR EXACTLY LIKE HIS LIFE because AT THIS TIME IT JUST DOESN'T LOOK THAT WAY? It's NOW that we need to hear that the life within us is the same life that one day will be revealed as the exact reflection of His own.

Now, looking forward to a time when CIRCUMSTANCES are different from this world is one thing (and it gives much hope during times of hardship); but looking forward to a future life that is MADE OF something different from the life that is NOW within me has NOTHING to do with the truth of Christ. But this is ALL we see anymore from all the built up distortion of 'heaven-hype'. Don't you recognize the difference? Don't you realize how you have been taught to look down upon your life here and now as if there was something inferior about it? How often do you think about "heaven" and gain the confidence that you are NOW as righteous as Christ? It doesn't happen, does it? But it is EXACTLY what John was writing about.

Good insights Ron,

If we are made in the image of God.....

Gen.1:26-27 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

.......then what we are now is that very image only tainted by sin, until Christ is revealed in us by rebirth from from death into life....eternal life that is.

The reason it does not appear what we shall be, is because we see through a glass darkly....until our eyes are opened and we "see Him as He is".

Rose

Bob May
09-14-2008, 03:29 PM
a conversation with Nicodemus.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

To believe is to enter into a COVENANT.
"Abraham believed and it was counted to him as Righteousness."
When we believe we ENTER INTO the covenant of Abraham. The TOKEN of that COVENANT is CIRCUMCISION.
To be "born from above" is a prerequisite to both enter into that covenant and to see it.
To watch as the veils of the "flesh of our hearts" are pealed away is to begin to see from deeper and deeper levels what has already happened because we first believed. These are Abraham's "Generations."
And us growing into or becoming aware of Christ in us.

It is also interesting to note that the text says, "..you SHALL BE circumcised.." and "must NEEDS BE circumcised", It does not say "YOU shall circumcise."

To see Abraham in Christ, is to see the seed in the tomato.
To see Christ in Abraham ("Before Abraham was, I AM...") is to see the tomato in the seed.

"Beloved, we are now the sons of the Mighty One, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he does appear, we shall be like him; because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

"The reason it does not appear what we shall be, is because we see through a glass darkly....until our eyes are opened and we "see Him as He is".
Rose

Rose said,
".......then what we are now is that very image only tainted by sin, until Christ is revealed in us by rebirth from from death into life....eternal life that is.'

I would dissagree here. We have been washed in the blood. It is our lack of belief. Or our "unbelief", Not our sin, that is the problem.
Heb 10:14 "For by one offering he hath PERFECTED for ever them that are sanctified."

Good thought provoking post Ron and Rose.

Bob

gregoryfl
09-14-2008, 06:33 PM
Rose said,
".......then what we are now is that very image only tainted by sin, until Christ is revealed in us by rebirth from from death into life....eternal life that is.'

I would dissagree here. We have been washed in the blood. It is our lack of belief. Or our "unbelief", Not our sin, that is the problem.
Heb 10:14 "For by one offering he hath PERFECTED for ever them that are sanctified."
Bob


Gen.1:26-27 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Rose


Thank you Rose for bringing that scripture in Genesis in to the discussion, for it points to that which God has had in mind all along and is realized in Christ; that we are indeed the image of God himself.

Yes Bob, I think one of the biggest mistakes we as believers make regarding the meaning of the "sin" to which we have died is to assume that it refers to a collection of individual sins, when in fact it refers to the existence or the realm or the domain from which sins flow. Truth is we learned our definitions of both sin and sins by an institution of religion that thrives upon the elemental things of the world so that we are well-equipped to judge between different varieties of sin, or else come to fear the very word itself. But in Christ we are not under obligation to any such option.

What does it mean to be "dead to sin"? Well, I believe it's both simple and as complex. Simple, because the death of former debtors speaks for itself. As you quoted, it is by that one death, and us dying with him, that we have died to sin, and have been perfected. That is the reality that we must fight to convince ourselves and our brothers and sisters is true. On the other hand, it is complex, because we still often insist that our life is what appearance says it is. THAT is the big DECEPTION of the mind, not the sin, but the perception of what we see around us, the lie masquerading as truth. Thankfully we are assured of the day when we will see clearly what has BEEN TRUE AND REAL about us all along.

Ron

Bob May
09-15-2008, 06:23 AM
Yes Bob, I think one of the biggest mistakes we as believers make regarding the meaning of the "sin" to which we have died is to assume that it refers to a collection of individual sins, when in fact it refers to the existence or the realm or the domain from which sins flow. Truth is we learned our definitions of both sin and sins by an institution of religion that thrives upon the elemental things of the world so that we are well-equipped to judge between different varieties of sin, or else come to fear the very word itself. But in Christ we are not under obligation to any such option.

Ron

Thank you Ron. It is refreshing to hear that someone is "getting it."

Under the Law and under Grace are two realities. We enter the second by faith. If you are under grace you know both realities because "you have been there." If you are under the Law you can only see that one reality.

1jo 3:4 "Whosoever committeth SIN transgresseth also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law."

(But where there is no law there is no sin. The law was crucified with Christ as were we.)

1jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit SIN; for his SEED remaineth in him: and he cannot SIN, because he is born of God.

1jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God SINNETH NOT; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

II Corinthians 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, but in fleshly TABLES OF THE HEART.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH, written and ENGRAVEN IN STONES, was glorious, (meaning full of light) so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. (sounds like the moon and the sun to me)
11 For if THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: FOR UNTIL THIS DAY REMAINETH THE SAME VEIL UNTAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
15 But EVEN UNTO THIS DAY, when Moses is read, the VEIL IS UPON THEIR HEART.
16 Nevertheless when it (The HEART) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (Parenthesis are mine)

This is why I say we must learn to read the Old Testament differently.
The commandments become promises and prophecies for US.
Circumcision becomes a promise that our hearts and eyes will be "unveiled." Not only that, but that we don't do it and it is already happening to us.

All of the "THOU SHALTS" and the "THOU SHALT NOTS" are saying what is going to happen to us and IS now happening to us.
Thou shalt not covet. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God. etc., etc.
The Old Testament is a book of promises. Not of Commandments.
We are changing into the image of Christ, not by our own power but by the Spirit.
That is why Jesus said that Moses wrote of him.

Bob