Misunderstood Gates of Hades

[Silence]

A few years ago, it occurred to me that most people's understanding of what Jesus meant by "the gates of Hades" is misguided. The catholic church uses Jesus' statement about the gates of Hades not prevailing against the church to justify the idea that the pope cannot teach error or else Jesus' words will be contradicted. Other ideas are that the church will be able to stand and conquer all kinds of attacks. But if you look at the meaning of 'hades' in Greek, and then at what happened immediately prior to Peter's confession about Jesus and his subsequent re-naming by Jesus as "rock", it seems that "the gates of Hades" takes on a different meaning. Just rior to this Jesus had asked His disciples, "Who do men say that I am?". Judging from the disciple's response, it is pretty clear that the people had no idea. They were "in the dark" and didn't know who He was. "Not being able to see or know" is what the word Hades means. A-eidos, with the "a' being a negative and eidos meaning "to see, and also by extension to know, or understand." So prior to the Father revealing to Peter Who Jesus was, Jesus' identity as Messia, and one aspect of the office of Messiah, were both locked up in obscurity i.e. "Hades". Once Peter opened his mouth and said "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God", both of these "unknowns" came out of "Hades into the light, and according to Jesus' words, they would never be "unknown" again.

The mention of a "rock brings to mind Daniel's vision of "the rock cut out without hands", Similar to Jesus telling Peter tha flesh and blood had not revealed Jesus' identity to him, but God the Father. They were right there at Cesaerea Phillipi where the whole mountain was full of idols and "niches" which were all cut out and made by men. Interesting huh?

[sylvius]

The mention of a "rock" brings to mind Daniel's vision of "the rock cut out without hands", Similar to Jesus telling Peter tha flesh and blood had not revealed Jesus' identity to him, but God the Father. They were right there at Cesaerea Phillipi where the whole mountain was full of idols and "niches" which were all cut out and made by men. Interesting huh?

but Daniel 2:45 has "even"= stone = Greek λίθος

while Peter was named after Greek πέτρα = rock

[sylvius]

Peter's confession about Jesus and his subsequent re-naming by Jesus as "rock",



He was renamed Κηφᾶς (Kēph?s), from Aramaic כֵּיפָא = rock

John 1:42,
ἤγαγεν αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν Ἰησοῦν. ἐμβλέψας αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν, Σὺ εἶ Σίμων ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωάννου: σὺ κληθήσῃ Κηφᾶς {ὃ ἑρμηνεύεται Πέτρος}.
they brought him to Jesus, and looking upon him Jesus said; You are Simon the son of John, you will be called Kephas, which is translated as Peter.

כֵּיפָא , "keifa", translates Hebrew "has?la" הַסֶּ֛לַע= "the rock" in Numbers 20 , that gave forth water after Moses did hit it with his staff, instead of speaking to it, because of waht he wans't allowed to enter the promised land.

In Exodus 17 there is also a rock that gave forth water after Moses did hit it with his staff, but this rock is Hebrew "hatzur" הַצּוּר֘, translated into Aramaic "tinara"

This makes very nuch sense, since in Numbers 20 there was no water after Miriam had died -- Miriam being the Hebrew name of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Numbers 20:1-2,
The entire congregation of the children of Israel arrived at the desert of Zin in the first month, and the people settled in Kadesh. Miriam died there and was buried there. The congregation had no water; so they assembled against Moses and Aaron.


Rashi: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9948#showrashi=true

had no water: From here [we learn that] all forty years they had the well in Miriam?s merit

Miriam's merit -- she gave birth to Jesus

forty is the value of letter "mem" = mama, mom , etc.

[sylvius]

"Not being able to see or know" is what the word Hades means. A-eidos, with the "a' being a negative and eidos meaning "to see, and also by extension to know, or understand."


Is Hades the same as ἀόρατος ?

LXX Genesis 1:2
http://www.septuagint.org/LXX/Genesis/1

ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος -- and the earth was invisible

This rhymes with LXX Genesis 1:9,
καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός συναχθήτω τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς συναγωγὴν μίαν καὶ ὀφθήτω ἡ ξηρά καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως καὶ συνήχθη τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ὤφθη ἡ ξηρά καὶ ἐκάλεσεν ὁ θεὸς τὴν ξηρὰν γῆν

(...) and let the dry land be seen and God called the dry land earth


ἀόρατος in NT:
http://biblehub.com/greek/517.htm

[Silence]

The Strong's entry for εἴδω (Strong's #1492) says that it is basically equivalent to #3700 - ὀπτάνομαι and #3708 - ὁράω. Here it is from this page https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1492&t=NKJV - "εἴδω e?dō, i'-do; a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:?be aware, behold, ? can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700."


Peter's name translated into Greek as petros is defined as rock but larger than lithos. This is the entry from https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4074&t=KJV - "Πέτρος P?tros, pet'-ros; apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:?Peter, rock. Compare G2786."

In both cases, eido/orao and lithos/petros, the differences in meaning, if any, are hard to make out. There seems to be some overlap. I was just pointing out some parallels that I found interesting.

[sylvius]

The Strong's entry for εἴδω (Strong's #1492) says that it is basically equivalent to #3700 - ὀπτάνομαι and #3708 - ὁράω. Here it is from this page https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1492&t=NKJV - "εἴδω e?dō, i'-do; a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:?be aware, behold, ? can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare G3700."


Peter's name translated into Greek as petros is defined as rock but larger than lithos. This is the entry from https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4074&t=KJV - "Πέτρος P?tros, pet'-ros; apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:?Peter, rock. Compare G2786."

In both cases, eido/orao and lithos/petros, the differences in meaning, if any, are hard to make out. There seems to be some overlap. I was just pointing out some parallels that I found interesting.

There seem to be different levels of seeing / knowing

Genesis 3:6-7,

And the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise; so she took of its fruit, and she ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves and made themselves girdles.

would there be correlation with Jesus renaming Simon Peter?

[sylvius]

There seem to be different levels of seeing / knowing

Genesis 3:6-7,

And the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise; so she took of its fruit, and she ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves and made themselves girdles.

would there be correlation with Jesus renaming Simon Peter?


And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, etc.

Hebrew: "vateire haishah ki tov haetz l'maachal"

cf. Genesis 1:12, and God saw that it was good.

"vayar elohim ki-tov".

This was strange, since the earth didn't bring forth what was asked, viz it brought forth "etz oseh pri" (tree making fruit) instead of "etz pri oseh pri" (tree fruit making fruit)

Above that the word "tov" (good) here is the 153rd word from the beginning, 153 being triangle 17 and 17 being the number of "tov"

In the passage in John 21, "Jesus and the Miraculous Catch of Fish", where Simon Peter dragged the net ashore full of 153 large fish, it is also said that het was naked (v.7)

Σίμων οὖν Πέτρος, ἀκούσας ὅτι ὁ κύριός ἐστιν, τὸν ἐπενδύτην διεζώσατο, ἦν γὰρ γυμνός


When Simon Peter heard that it was the master, he put on his outer garment, for he was naked.

γυμνός also in LXX Genesis 3:7,
καὶ διηνοίχθησαν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ τῶν δύο καὶ ἔγνωσαν ὅτι γυμνοὶ ἦσαν καὶ ἔρραψαν φύλλα συκῆς καὶ ἐποίησαν ἑαυτοῖς περιζώματα

[sylvius]

Name Simon is Hebrew Shimon is from "shama" = to hear

Genesis 29:323,
And she conceived again and bore a son, and she said, "Since the Lord has heard that I am hated, He gave me this one too." So she named him Shimon.



Romans 10:17, ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, faith is from hearing

[sylvius]

So "etz oseh pri" of Genesis 1:12 likely is the "etz hadaat tov vara" , the tree of knowledge of good and evil

[sylvius]

A few years ago, it occurred to me that most people's understanding of what Jesus meant by "the gates of Hades" is misguided. The catholic church uses Jesus' statement about the gates of Hades not prevailing against the church to justify the idea that the pope cannot teach error or else Jesus' words will be contradicted. Other ideas are that the church will be able to stand and conquer all kinds of attacks. But if you look at the meaning of 'hades' in Greek, and then at what happened immediately prior to Peter's confession about Jesus and his subsequent re-naming by Jesus as "rock", it seems that "the gates of Hades" takes on a different meaning. Just rior to this Jesus had asked His disciples, "Who do men say that I am?". Judging from the disciple's response, it is pretty clear that the people had no idea. They were "in the dark" and didn't know who He was. "Not being able to see or know" is what the word Hades means. A-eidos, with the "a' being a negative and eidos meaning "to see, and also by extension to know, or understand." So prior to the Father revealing to Peter Who Jesus was, Jesus' identity as Messia, and one aspect of the office of Messiah, were both locked up in obscurity i.e. "Hades". Once Peter opened his mouth and said "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God", both of these "unknowns" came out of "Hades into the light, and according to Jesus' words, they would never be "unknown" again.

The mention of a "rock brings to mind Daniel's vision of "the rock cut out without hands", Similar to Jesus telling Peter tha flesh and blood had not revealed Jesus' identity to him, but God the Father. They were right there at Cesaerea Phillipi where the whole mountain was full of idols and "niches" which were all cut out and made by men. Interesting huh?

ᾍδης --http://biblehub.com/greek/86.htm

translates Hebrew Sheol שְׁא֛וֹל

Jonah 2:3,
וַיֹּ֗אמֶר קָ֠רָא֠תִי מִצָּ֥רָה לִ֛י אֶל־יְהֹוָ֖ה וַיַּֽעֲנֵ֑נִי מִבֶּ֧טֶן שְׁא֛וֹל שִׁוַּ֖עְתִּי שָׁמַ֥עְתָּ קוֹלִֽי
And he said: I called out from my distress to the Lord, and He answered me; from the belly of the grave I cried out, You heard my voice.
LXX καὶ εἶπεν ἐβόησα ἐν θλίψει μου πρὸς κύριον τὸν θεόν μου καὶ εἰσήκουσέν μου ἐκ κοιλίας ᾅδου κραυγῆς μου ἤκουσας φωνῆς μου

The name of king Saul is written the same שָׁאוּל, Shaul --

which was also Hebrew name of Paul

which might be of interest.

Sheol from root "shaal"= to ask

Hell being the sphere where there is no answer for your questions.

[sylvius]

πύλαι ἅ|δου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς

πύλη = gate, door http://biblehub.com/greek/4439.htm

κατισχύω = have strength,; overcome, overpower; win, prevail. http://biblehub.com/greek/2729.htm

αὐτῆς refers to μου ἡ ἐκκλησία = my congregation called out from (the world) http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm

cf. LXX Numbers 20:10
καὶ ἐξεκκλησίασεν μωυσῆς καὶ Aαρων τὴν συναγωγὴν ἀπέναντι τῆς πέτρας καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς ἀκούσατέ μου οἱ ἀπειθεῖς μὴ ἐκ τῆς πέτρας ταύτης ἐξάξομεν ὑμῖν ὕδωρ

Moses and Aaron called out the congregation in front of the rock, and he said to them, "Now listen, you rebels, can we draw water for you from this rock?"

Hebrew
וַיַּקְהִ֜לוּ משֶׁ֧ה וְאַֽהֲרֹ֛ן אֶת־הַקָּהָ֖ל אֶל־פְּנֵ֣י הַסָּ֑לַע"vayakhilu moshe v'aharon et -hakahal el-pnei has?la"

"kiheil"= to convoke, assemble

"kahal" = multitude, public

"k'hillah"= congregation

"kohelet"= Ecclesiastes, counseler.

[sylvius]

Job 38:17,
Have the gates of death been revealed to you, and do you see the gates of the shadow of death?

gates of death = "shaarei mavet" שַֽׁעֲרֵי־מָ֑וֶת
gates of the shadow of death = "shaarei tzalmavet" שַֽׁעֲרֵ֖י צַלְמָ֣וֶת
LXX
ἀνοίγονται δέ σοι φόβῳ πύλαι θανάτου πυλωροὶ δὲ ᾅδου ἰδόντες σε ἔπτηξαν


Isaiah 38:10,
I said, "In the desolation of my days will I go into the gates of the grave; I am deprived of the rest of my years."

gates of the grave -- "shaarei sheol" שַֽׁעֲרֵ֣י שְׁא֑וֹל

LXX
. ἐγὼ εἶπα ἐν τῷ ὕψει τῶν ἡμερῶν μου ἐν πύλαις ᾅδου καταλείψω τὰ ἔτη τὰ ἐπίλοιπα

[sylvius]

From this and that might be clear that the rock on which the church is build indeed was the Miriam well

[sylvius]

1 Corinthians 10:4,

καὶ πάντες τὸ αὐτὸ πνευματικὸν ἔπιον πόμα: ἔπινον γὰρ ἐκ πνευματικῆς ἀκολουθούσης πέτρας: ἡ πέτρα δὲ ἦν ὁ Χριστός.

and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.

https://books.google.nl/books?id=31pFDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA225&lpg=PA225&dq=well+of+miriam+a+rock+that+travelled+with+them&source=bl&ots=vnRqNQ4OLD&sig=uQv175ePbej4NzIfikvFb4cguPg&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijjsvt25jYAhUCKFAKHWveAGAQ6AEIUjAF#v=on epage&q&f=false
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRfqGyIWkAAv5tV.jpg

[Richard Amiel McGough]

From this and that might be clear that the rock on which the church is build indeed was the Miriam well


"But how you come to the idea that the Bible should relate historical data?" ~ sylvius