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Richard Amiel McGough
08-26-2008, 03:51 PM
A proper understanding of John 14 is possible only when it is viewed as a unified whole. It is an integrated discourse that opens and closes with nearly identical words:

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:27-29 ... Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Sandwiched between these two "bookends" we find the key to the central message of the entire Bible.


In my fathers house ...

What is the "father's house" to which Christ referred? This question is easily answered. The Apostle Paul explicitly identifies it as the Church, the body of all believers:

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This confirmed by the Apostle Peter:
KJV 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The parallelism between "begin at the house of God" and "begin at us" confirms that the "house of God" is "us", that is, the body of believers. This is confirmed again in Hebrews which explicitly states that "we" are the "house" over which Christ rules:
Hebrews 3:4-6 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

And all these ideas are confirmed again in Ephesians:
Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. The teaching of the New Testament is perfectly clear and unambiguous. The Church, the Body of Christ, is the "House of God" - the "Father's House."



... are many mansions.

The word "mansion" is from the Latin root manere which means "to remain, abide, dwell." It is cognate with the Greek root mone' which has the same meaning and which is translated as "mansions" in vs. 2. Here is how Strong's defines it:

μονη mone {mon-ay'} from 3306; TDNT - 4:579,581; n f AV - mansion 1, abode 1; 2 1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode 2) to make an (one's) abode 3) metaph. of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers

This word appears only twice in Scripture, once in John 14:2 and again in John 14:23. I highlighted the third definition because that is that is the meaning of the word in this context. This is confirmed by the way Christ used it later in this integrated discourse:
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode (mone) with him.

If the translation were consistent, it would have Christ saying that "we will come unto him, and make our mansion with him." This forms an essential link to the second verse which is impossible to miss when read in the Greek. God makes us into His Mansion. Note the plural "our" - that is a direct reference to the Trinity, as we shall see below. The noun mone' is based on the verb meno (to dwell, to abide) which is particulary characteristic of the writings attributed to the Apostle John - his Gospel and first Epistle account for over half of all occurrences in the Bible. Here is an example of how it is typically used:
1 John 4:12-16 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 ¶ Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Every one of those five highlighted words is based on the verb "meno" which is cognate to the noun "mone" translated as "mansion" (vs. 2) or "abode" (vs. 23). Christ used this word repeatedly in John 14, so there is no way to deny that He was making a connection between the noun mone' and its cognate verb meno:
John 14:10-17 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. The "many mansions" refers to the many believers each of whom are individual "dwelling places" for God. We are the "mansions" in which God dwells. They are not made for believers, they are made of believers.


... I go ...

What did Christ mean when He said "I go"? The answer is clear because He repeated it many times:

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
The meaning is perfectly clear and explicit. Christ was talking about His Death, Resurrection, and Ascension unto His Throne in Heaven. This is confirmed by the explanation He gave for why He must depart:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when did He send the Comforter? That happened at Pentecost after His Ascension to heaven and exaltation to the right hand of God:
Acts 2:32-33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.



... to prepare a place for you.
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Here we find a sudden shift in the language that has caused a lot of confusion. The word "place" is topos - it is not related in any way to the the words mone' or meno. Here is how Strong's defines this word:
τοπος topos {top'-os} apparently a primary word; TDNT - 8:187,1184; n m AV - place 80, room 5, quarter 2, licence 1, coast 1, where 1, plain + 3977 1, rock + 5138 1; 92 1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space 1a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district 1b) a place (passage) in a book 2) metaph. 2a) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly 2b) opportunity, power, occasion for acting
I highlighted the definition that is being used in John 14. Christ went to prepare a "place" for us before the Throne of God - this is His ministration as our High Priest - and then He sent forth His Spirit so that the Triune God could dwell in His People. Christ did not say that He was going to prepare a "place" for the "many mansions" in which we would dwell. On the contrary, we are the mansions. He needed to prepare a "place", that is, to intercede for us before our Father in heaven, so He could pour out His Holy Spirit to fill His mansions, which is what we are. He is our forerunner to prepare us a place before God, as it is written:
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Christ is our High Priest who has prepared a place for us "through the veil":
Hebrews 10:19-21 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; This returns us to the "house of God" - the Father's House, which we are - that Christ consecrated by His Blood. The reference to the "living way" returns us again back to John 14:
John 14:3-6 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. This demonstrates the one great challenge of biblical exegesis. The supernatural divine unity of the Bible is such that it is difficult to explain all the connections without writing a large volume. Everything is connected to everything else, and the true interpretations are incontrovertible because everything confirms everything else.


... and He shall give you another Comforter ...
John 14:16-23 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. This is perhaps the greatest Trinitarian passage in the entire Bible. Christ specifically says that each person of the Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - would "dwell" (meno) in the believers, and then caps it off with the plural "we" which is a reference to all three.

Conclusion:

Judas asked "Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?" The answer is clear. We are the "mansions" in the Father's house. The Triune God "manifests" Himself to the believers by dwelling in us. This first happened at Pentecost, which was obviously the "coming" of the Lord prophesied here in John 14.

There is much more to say, but I can't fit it all in one post.

Richard

gregoryfl
08-26-2008, 04:12 PM
Richard,

It is so good to hear the truth concerning that often misunderstood scripture. We as his house live in the reality of that promise being fulfilled yet most of the church is still looking and hoping for it somewhere in heaven in the future. I had the same conclusion basically as you expressed but you gave me new insight into the word "place", which I am thankful for.

Regarding who would dwell in them, could it be that the spirit he was speaking of was Jesus himself, saying that he would come again to dwell in them by means of his spirit? That both Father and Son, would do so by means of their spirit. I say this because in the Greek, John identifies not only the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, but also Jesus, which he speaks of in his first epistle. He often spoke of himself in the 3rd person. One clear example is when he speaks of himself as the Son of Man. Just a thought. Loved the teaching bro. Thanks. :thumb:

Ron

Richard Amiel McGough
08-26-2008, 04:41 PM
Richard,

It is so good to hear the truth concerning that often misunderstood scripture. We as his house live in the reality of that promise being fulfilled yet most of the church is still looking and hoping for it somewhere in heaven in the future. I had the same conclusion basically as you expressed but you gave me new insight into the word "place", which I am thankful for.

Regarding who would dwell in them, could it be that the spirit he was speaking of was Jesus himself, saying that he would come again to dwell in them by means of his spirit? That both Father and Son, would do so by means of their spirit. I say this because in the Greek, John identifies not only the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, but also Jesus, which he speaks of in his first epistle. He often spoke of himself in the 3rd person. One clear example is when he speaks of himself as the Son of Man. Just a thought. Loved the teaching bro. Thanks. :thumb:

Ron
Hey there Ron!


I'm really glad we see eye-to-eye on this. Your question about the identity of the "Holy Spirit" that Christ mentions seems to touch the "mysterious" aspect of the Trinity. Christ conflates all three persons. He said "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" yet he is not "the father." And when it comes to the Holy Spirit, he both identifies with him and yet speaks as if he is "another" -
John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The parallelism is striking: "he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

So it seems to me that three "Persons" are clearly mentioned - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - and those three are "distinct" yet truly "one." But there is a fly in the traditional Trinitarian ointment - Christ also said that believers are would be "one" with Him just as He is one with the Father. But that doesn't make much sense - and so I have to interpret that to mean that we are "one" with God in more of an "adoption" sense while Christ is "one" with the Fahter in an "ontological" sense.

Are you a "Trinitarian"?

Richard

gregoryfl
08-27-2008, 02:48 PM
Am I a trinitarian? I would not classify myself by that, no.

What I understand as to the nature of God is that there is God the Father, who by means of his spirit, birthed his nature into flesh in the person of Jesus, who is the joining of man and God. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and of the Son, but I do not see the Holy Spirit as a separate person from them. I understand the Spirit of God to be likened to the spirit of man. God is spirit, hence when we refer to him as spirit, we refer to him as Holy Spirit. I do not hold to the view that the Holy Spirit is merely the power or force of God, but he is God himself.

Because Jesus is the manifestation or revealing of God the Father, I believe he can also rightly be referred to and treated as God, although he relates to the Father as a Son, being subject to him, although equal with him. Similar to a wife being subject to a husband, although equal with him.

I know very well that those who believe in the trinity would disagree with what I am sharing, and I am fine with that. It is what I currently see in scripture and I respect someone who would view it differently. After all, there have been many minds greater than mine who have debated the subject for many hundreds of years.

As to your point concerning the joining of God and us together to be one just as they are one, I see that to be in the same way as was the case with Jesus, with one exception. Jesus, although in the same flesh as us, was of course without sin. But we are joined with the Father and the Son by means of their spirit being joined as one with our spirit. We therefore, have the mind of Christ, we are in reality righteous, holy, set apart, all in Christ. What the Father is doing now, by means of he and his Son living in us, is revealing over time what we truly are in Christ. And the day will come for each of us that we will stand before him, and see him as he is, for we will be seen to be like him.

Ron

Richard Amiel McGough
08-27-2008, 06:37 PM
Am I a trinitarian? I would not classify myself by that, no.

What I understand as to the nature of God is that there is God the Father, who by means of his spirit, birthed his nature into flesh in the person of Jesus, who is the joining of man and God. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and of the Son, but I do not see the Holy Spirit as a separate person from them. I understand the Spirit of God to be likened to the spirit of man. God is spirit, hence when we refer to him as spirit, we refer to him as Holy Spirit. I do not hold to the view that the Holy Spirit is merely the power or force of God, but he is God himself.

Because Jesus is the manifestation or revealing of God the Father, I believe he can also rightly be referred to and treated as God, although he relates to the Father as a Son, being subject to him, although equal with him. Similar to a wife being subject to a husband, although equal with him.

I know very well that those who believe in the trinity would disagree with what I am sharing, and I am fine with that. It is what I currently see in scripture and I respect someone who would view it differently. After all, there have been many minds greater than mine who have debated the subject for many hundreds of years.

As to your point concerning the joining of God and us together to be one just as they are one, I see that to be in the same way as was the case with Jesus, with one exception. Jesus, although in the same flesh as us, was of course without sin. But we are joined with the Father and the Son by means of their spirit being joined as one with our spirit. We therefore, have the mind of Christ, we are in reality righteous, holy, set apart, all in Christ. What the Father is doing now, by means of he and his Son living in us, is revealing over time what we truly are in Christ. And the day will come for each of us that we will stand before him, and see him as he is, for we will be seen to be like him.

Ron
Hi Ron,

I'm really glad that you feel comfortable enough here to share your real thoughts about this question. From what you have said, I have a bit of an idea of what you believe, but I am curious how you understand the verses that indicate Jesus is the Creator and that He existed with the Father before His incarnation. For example:

Colossians 1:15-19 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him [Jesus Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he [Jesus Christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
How do you understand this? Is Jesus the Creator?

Richard

gregoryfl
08-28-2008, 08:27 AM
Richard,

Thanks for stirring up my thoughts on this. I appreciate your response and hope I can share this clearly enough. There are still questions I have but am pleased we serve a God who is so much bigger than our feeble attempts to understand his vastness, and that he loves us so preciously.

And the Mightiest One said, "Let there be light", and there was light. Gen 1:3

By Yahuwah’s word, the heavens were made;
all their army by the breath of his mouth. Psa 33:6

By faith, we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible. Heb 11:3

While not fully settled on every possible aspect of this subject, here is what I currently understand:

God made everything by means of his word, his spirit expressed by means of his word. The scripture in psalms shows the parallel between the heavens and their army, as well as Yahuwah's word and the breath of his mouth.

So yes, Jesus is the creator in the sense that by means of him all things were created. I do not believe that he was a person before he was born as Jesus. He was the word, the breath, the spirit of God. In creation, God spoke, and it came into being. God also sent his word in the form of visions in the Old Testament. One example of many is:

After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Don’t be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.” Gen 15:1

Since no one saw God at any time, what they saw when they said they saw Yahuwah was his word expressed in physical form through angels. They too, were elohim, but not the true elohim himself. These were temporary though, for in the fullness of time, God birthed his word in Mary and God finally had his permanent resting place, in the permanence of the man Jesus his Son. In Christ we too as believers, as his body, are abodes for God to rest in, abide in. The two familiar scriptures that speak of this to me are:

The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his esteem, an esteem that belonged to the only begotten Son of the Father, full of favor and truth. Joh 1:14

Yahushua answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. Joh 14:23

alec cotton
08-30-2008, 12:56 PM
Hello Greg
My name's Alec. Good to read your response to Richard. I would like to offer you my take on the subject. First let me draw your attention to the fact that the name used in the beginning was not El Shadai ( The allmighty. Singular ) but Elohim which is plural. A bit farther down you will read 'Jehovah Elohim' . The one who is Objects of worship. God said 'let US make man in OUR own image. It would be ludicrous to suggest that because I am this shape then God must be this shape. I am created in the image of God.. God is a triune being and so am I . I have a mind . This body is not a mind . I have a soul (or spirit. Whichever label you might want to use) and that is separate . These three are separate and yet inseparable. In the beginning was the word and the word was God. The word became flesh and dwelt among us. ' I have exalted my word above my name'.Peace be your portion.
Alec

gregoryfl
08-30-2008, 02:54 PM
I am moving this to separate post if you wish to continue this discussion, so it does not distract from Richard's original post.

Abigail
08-30-2008, 03:10 PM
So it seems to me that three "Persons" are clearly mentioned - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - and those three are "distinct" yet truly "one." But there is a fly in the traditional Trinitarian ointment - Christ also said that believers are would be "one" with Him just as He is one with the Father. But that doesn't make much sense - and so I have to interpret that to mean that we are "one" with God in more of an "adoption" sense while Christ is "one" with the Fahter in an "ontological" sense.

Richard

At the moment I am reading 'The Gospel of John' by Jerome H Neyrey S.J. On some levels he basically comes to a similar conclusion as you in that the Father's house alludes to relationships ...Father/Son or intimate kinship relationships.

We have a relationship with God through Christ who indwells us. We are the rooms (each private, in that a room is a private place, as is each believers relationship with God through Christ.) Together the believers make the house of God.