gregoryfl
08-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Concerning the nature of this fire, I just want to share some scripture that I see showing the physical type and spiritual reality:
Dan 3:24,25 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste: he spoke and said to his counselors, Didn’t we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered the king, True, O king. He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are unharmed; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the mighty ones.
Dan 3:27 The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the king’s counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.
Now compare this physical type with the spiritual reality:
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the called-out assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and separated is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power,
Notice the similarity. Also notice that those who God's favor was on went through a fire. They were not spared from it. Likewise, we are not spared from the second death, the lake of fire, that which is spoken of as pertaining to the messianic eon. We will not be hurt by it nor will it have power over us. Isaiah also spoke about us who actually dwell in such a place when he wrote:
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid.
Trembling has seized the irreverent ones.
Who among us can live with the devouring fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?
Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously,
and speaks blamelessly;
He who despises the gain of oppressions,
who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe,
who stops his ears from hearing of blood,
and shuts his eyes from looking at evil—
Isa 33:16 he will dwell on high.
His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks.
His bread will be supplied.
His waters will be sure.
This fire is said to be kindled by the breath of God himself, where the prophet says:
Isa 33:11 You will conceive chaff.
You will bring forth stubble.
Your breath is a fire that will devour you.
It is not this evil place where wickedness lives in torment forever. As I understand it, it is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29
I believe the scriptures also teach that we have a role in this lake of fire as well, which I will now share.
Regarding that fire which consumes, I see that it is both a done deal as well as a revelation over time. In Christ sin, death, and the works of the devil, which are temporal things, have been done away with, destroyed, and conquered from God's point of view. This can only be seen and lived in by faith. From our eyes of flesh we still see these things but that is where revelation comes in. The lake of fire concerns all of us, along with God the father and his son Jesus Christ, which reveals all of those things done away with that are temporal, spoken of in scripture as wood, hay, and stubble, as well as tares, as well as chaff, to name a few examples.
In the end, God is all in all, which means all things temporal will be no more, that only that which is of God, the new creation, remains. In fact, from the standpoint of life, I would liken all things right now that are temporal to a dead carcass, with no life or substance, slowly decaying, or, as scripture says "passing away." We experience them physically, but they do not touch our inner person, for such things have no hold on us.
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
1Co 15:27 For, 'He put all things in subjection under his feet.'
Eph 1:22 He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the called-out assembly,
Heb 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.'
This occured at the resurrection of Christ, which is why he could rightly say "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."
And yet, does it appear that all things are in subjection to him? No. In fact, Paul goes on to say the same when he says:
Heb 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.' For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we don’t see all things subjected to him, yet.
This, I believe, is where revelation comes in, for the illusion is presented to our physical eyes and experience that he doesn't have all authority yet, when the reality is that he in fact does. The "seeing" that Paul speaks of here is seeing with our physical eyes. He doesn't stop there however, thankfully. For he goes on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yahushua, because of the suffering of death crowned with esteem and honor, that by the favor of the Mighty One he should taste of death for everyone.
Paul here shows the reality, which can be "seen" by eyes of faith. He is indeed crowned with esteem and honor, even though to our physical eyes it doesn't appear to be so yet. Over time as that which is temporal passes away, the reality is made more and more clear. That is how I understand the lake of fire which burns even now in each of us.
So with regard to sin, from what I understand, it is the same. One of the reasons Jesus died and rose again was to "finish disobedience and make an end of sin" as Daniel 9:24 brings out. John the Immerser spoke in agreement when he announced Jesus as the "Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." Just as with his having all things put under his feet now, so it is with sin and disobedience. They are, as far as reality is concerned, finished and ended, taken away. Yet, our physical eyes still see them today. In time, the revelation of the reality is made clear. Our so-called works of the flesh are shown to be what they truly are, nothing, temporal, ended, finished. This is done by the consuming fire of God's esteem being manifest in our lives through fiery trials.
Thus, when everything is consumed that is not of God, he no longer will need to be a consuming fire. This is also described in another metaphor by Paul, using similar terminology, when he speaks of that which is mortal being swallowed up in life. (2Co 5:4) This life is his esteem or glory, which he alone has within himself. This does not merely mean he possesses life. He is Life itself, and as such, he is the source of Life for whoever he wishes. This life he has given to be in his son Jesus, so that Jesus too, as the full representation of God, has life in himself as well. He too is the source of Life for whoever he wishes.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son to have life in himself.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whoever he wishes.
Thus he can rightly be called the Life, as well as the Light of the world. This Life that Jesus is from his Father is the source of light for a world darkened by deception and illusion.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
As light, he illuminates and swallows up the darkness. It passes away for it is temporal. John wrote of this in his epistle when he said that "the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shines." (1Jn 2:8) This is similar language to when he speaks of the world which is passing away, for when he speaks of the world passing away he is specifically speaking of those things in the world which are not of him; namely, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, things pertaining to darkness.
What is most amazing about this however, is that he has bestowed on us, unworthy as we all are, to be his body, which means that we too can rightly be spoken of as the light of the world. Jesus himself said we were. Think about that. We are the light of the world!
So then, not only are we the recipients of this light, and of this fire, in our own lives, but he also uses us to give life to others through the message of the good news we share and the life we live. Our words from the Lord as we speak to each other here as well as elsewhere are fire, devouring that which is against the full knowledge of God and bringing light and hope to a mankind so desperately in need of it. I believe this was why when the 120 in the upper room received the holy spirit, they saw tongues of fire on their heads. This was a portent of the type of message they would bear.
We were foretold also in the vision Ezekiel had of the 4 living creatures. We can know this because these are spoken of in Revelation as having been bought by the blood of Jesus.
Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They sang a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for the Mighty One with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our Mighty One, and we will reign on earth.' (Rev 5:8-10)
There is so much concerning these 4 living creatures but I want to focus on one aspect relevant to this post. They are described in this way:
Eze 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches: the fire went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
We are burning coals of fire, and what does that speak of? Well, let's see other uses of this term. First, a physical natural one, then a spiritual supernatural one.
Lev 16:12-13 He shall take a censer full of coals of fire from off the altar before Yahweh, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil: and he shall put the incense on the fire before Yahweh, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the testimony, so that he will not die.
Joh 18:18 Now the servants and the officers were standing there, having made a fire of coals, for it was cold. They were warming themselves. Peter was with them, standing and warming himself.
In these physical examples, for the priest he was spared from dying by using coals of fire with incense in the presence of Yahweh. In the case of Peter, he was warmed by it. Both uses here spoken of as beneficial.
Rom 12:20 Therefore 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head.'
This spiritual application results in shame and mental anguish felt by the enemy, but ultimately with the result of devouring those traits which are not of God. This is ultimately good for your enemy, for in doing so we are overcoming (devouring, swallowing up) evil with good.
Jesus said he came to throw fire on the earth as recorded in Luke 12:49. He has done this, in us, his servants who are flames of fire. And that fire will never be extinguished until only God remains, expressed through his son, and all who make up his body.
Thoughts?
Ron
Dan 3:24,25 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste: he spoke and said to his counselors, Didn’t we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered the king, True, O king. He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are unharmed; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the mighty ones.
Dan 3:27 The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the king’s counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.
Now compare this physical type with the spiritual reality:
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the called-out assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and separated is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power,
Notice the similarity. Also notice that those who God's favor was on went through a fire. They were not spared from it. Likewise, we are not spared from the second death, the lake of fire, that which is spoken of as pertaining to the messianic eon. We will not be hurt by it nor will it have power over us. Isaiah also spoke about us who actually dwell in such a place when he wrote:
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid.
Trembling has seized the irreverent ones.
Who among us can live with the devouring fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?
Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously,
and speaks blamelessly;
He who despises the gain of oppressions,
who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe,
who stops his ears from hearing of blood,
and shuts his eyes from looking at evil—
Isa 33:16 he will dwell on high.
His place of defense will be the fortress of rocks.
His bread will be supplied.
His waters will be sure.
This fire is said to be kindled by the breath of God himself, where the prophet says:
Isa 33:11 You will conceive chaff.
You will bring forth stubble.
Your breath is a fire that will devour you.
It is not this evil place where wickedness lives in torment forever. As I understand it, it is God himself, purging and setting right all the wrongs, burning that which cannot exist in his presence, so that only that which shares his nature remains. Yes, as the writer to the Hebrews aptly said, for our God is a consuming fire.-Heb 12:29
I believe the scriptures also teach that we have a role in this lake of fire as well, which I will now share.
Regarding that fire which consumes, I see that it is both a done deal as well as a revelation over time. In Christ sin, death, and the works of the devil, which are temporal things, have been done away with, destroyed, and conquered from God's point of view. This can only be seen and lived in by faith. From our eyes of flesh we still see these things but that is where revelation comes in. The lake of fire concerns all of us, along with God the father and his son Jesus Christ, which reveals all of those things done away with that are temporal, spoken of in scripture as wood, hay, and stubble, as well as tares, as well as chaff, to name a few examples.
In the end, God is all in all, which means all things temporal will be no more, that only that which is of God, the new creation, remains. In fact, from the standpoint of life, I would liken all things right now that are temporal to a dead carcass, with no life or substance, slowly decaying, or, as scripture says "passing away." We experience them physically, but they do not touch our inner person, for such things have no hold on us.
One clear example of this state of both having been done in the past and yet being revealed over time is where Jesus is said to have [past tense] all things put under his feet. Notice these places:
1Co 15:27 For, 'He put all things in subjection under his feet.'
Eph 1:22 He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the called-out assembly,
Heb 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.'
This occured at the resurrection of Christ, which is why he could rightly say "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth."
And yet, does it appear that all things are in subjection to him? No. In fact, Paul goes on to say the same when he says:
Heb 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.' For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we don’t see all things subjected to him, yet.
This, I believe, is where revelation comes in, for the illusion is presented to our physical eyes and experience that he doesn't have all authority yet, when the reality is that he in fact does. The "seeing" that Paul speaks of here is seeing with our physical eyes. He doesn't stop there however, thankfully. For he goes on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yahushua, because of the suffering of death crowned with esteem and honor, that by the favor of the Mighty One he should taste of death for everyone.
Paul here shows the reality, which can be "seen" by eyes of faith. He is indeed crowned with esteem and honor, even though to our physical eyes it doesn't appear to be so yet. Over time as that which is temporal passes away, the reality is made more and more clear. That is how I understand the lake of fire which burns even now in each of us.
So with regard to sin, from what I understand, it is the same. One of the reasons Jesus died and rose again was to "finish disobedience and make an end of sin" as Daniel 9:24 brings out. John the Immerser spoke in agreement when he announced Jesus as the "Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." Just as with his having all things put under his feet now, so it is with sin and disobedience. They are, as far as reality is concerned, finished and ended, taken away. Yet, our physical eyes still see them today. In time, the revelation of the reality is made clear. Our so-called works of the flesh are shown to be what they truly are, nothing, temporal, ended, finished. This is done by the consuming fire of God's esteem being manifest in our lives through fiery trials.
Thus, when everything is consumed that is not of God, he no longer will need to be a consuming fire. This is also described in another metaphor by Paul, using similar terminology, when he speaks of that which is mortal being swallowed up in life. (2Co 5:4) This life is his esteem or glory, which he alone has within himself. This does not merely mean he possesses life. He is Life itself, and as such, he is the source of Life for whoever he wishes. This life he has given to be in his son Jesus, so that Jesus too, as the full representation of God, has life in himself as well. He too is the source of Life for whoever he wishes.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son to have life in himself.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whoever he wishes.
Thus he can rightly be called the Life, as well as the Light of the world. This Life that Jesus is from his Father is the source of light for a world darkened by deception and illusion.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
As light, he illuminates and swallows up the darkness. It passes away for it is temporal. John wrote of this in his epistle when he said that "the darkness is passing away, and the true light already shines." (1Jn 2:8) This is similar language to when he speaks of the world which is passing away, for when he speaks of the world passing away he is specifically speaking of those things in the world which are not of him; namely, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, things pertaining to darkness.
What is most amazing about this however, is that he has bestowed on us, unworthy as we all are, to be his body, which means that we too can rightly be spoken of as the light of the world. Jesus himself said we were. Think about that. We are the light of the world!
So then, not only are we the recipients of this light, and of this fire, in our own lives, but he also uses us to give life to others through the message of the good news we share and the life we live. Our words from the Lord as we speak to each other here as well as elsewhere are fire, devouring that which is against the full knowledge of God and bringing light and hope to a mankind so desperately in need of it. I believe this was why when the 120 in the upper room received the holy spirit, they saw tongues of fire on their heads. This was a portent of the type of message they would bear.
We were foretold also in the vision Ezekiel had of the 4 living creatures. We can know this because these are spoken of in Revelation as having been bought by the blood of Jesus.
Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. They sang a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for the Mighty One with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our Mighty One, and we will reign on earth.' (Rev 5:8-10)
There is so much concerning these 4 living creatures but I want to focus on one aspect relevant to this post. They are described in this way:
Eze 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, like the appearance of torches: the fire went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.
We are burning coals of fire, and what does that speak of? Well, let's see other uses of this term. First, a physical natural one, then a spiritual supernatural one.
Lev 16:12-13 He shall take a censer full of coals of fire from off the altar before Yahweh, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil: and he shall put the incense on the fire before Yahweh, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the testimony, so that he will not die.
Joh 18:18 Now the servants and the officers were standing there, having made a fire of coals, for it was cold. They were warming themselves. Peter was with them, standing and warming himself.
In these physical examples, for the priest he was spared from dying by using coals of fire with incense in the presence of Yahweh. In the case of Peter, he was warmed by it. Both uses here spoken of as beneficial.
Rom 12:20 Therefore 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing so, you will heap coals of fire on his head.'
This spiritual application results in shame and mental anguish felt by the enemy, but ultimately with the result of devouring those traits which are not of God. This is ultimately good for your enemy, for in doing so we are overcoming (devouring, swallowing up) evil with good.
Jesus said he came to throw fire on the earth as recorded in Luke 12:49. He has done this, in us, his servants who are flames of fire. And that fire will never be extinguished until only God remains, expressed through his son, and all who make up his body.
Thoughts?
Ron