The resemblance of Rome and Washington DC

[gilgal]

I read in the new book of Texe Marrs' Mysterious Monuments (http://www.mysteriousmonuments.com/) that Washington City resembles the city of Rome in many ways.

http://www.nysun.com/arts/lenfant-and-the-pride-of-the-potomac/48590/


Built on a site known for its swamps and marshlands;
laid out in the form of a diamond;
lies nestled inside a "Y", or a "furka", fork of a wide flowing river, the Potomac (Rome's was Tiber);
Washington's inner core has a tiny creek or waterway called the Tiber;
Washington was once called Rome;

[IamWolfeagle]

Are you saying that Rome has been reincarnated?
Or just sharing similarities?

In 1772 AD the african slaves built the white house.

What was happening in 1772 BC? Anyone care to find the
answer?

[gilgal]

I don't know much about it yet.

But I believe that the city spoken about in Revelation will be Jerusalem because she sits on 7 hills.

[Rose]

I don't know much about it yet.

But I believe that the city spoken about in Revelation will be Jerusalem because she sits on 7 hills.

The city spoken of in Revelation as the "great city" was Jerusalem before it was destroyed in 70 A.D..


Rev.11:8And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rose

[gilgal]

The city spoken of in Revelation as the "great city" was Jerusalem before it was destroyed in 70 A.D..


Rev.11:8And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rose
What if there's a desire to make Jerusalem even greater than it was before? Because Jerusalem most probably receives more pilgrims than Rome because Orthodox and Protestants have that admiration as well as Roman Catholics. Not only that, but the pipelines are being built from the Arab countries to Jerusalem and Israel.

Another thing. Jesus said that the end is not yet, because there would be false prophets, and false Christs. Simon Bar Cochba was one of the first false Christs. There was Jacob Frank from I believe Germany. And the most popular was Shabetai Tzvi (many ways of writing his name) from Turkey. He later converted to Islam teaching that God will make atonement for him (somehow!)
Many politicians among Turks might turn out to be hidden Jews like Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

What if there's a desire to make Jerusalem even greater than it was before?
Hey there Gilgal,

It is good to be chatting.

I believe that the Bible has very clear answers to your question. Here are three off the top of my head:

1) There is no reason to believe that God has such a desire because the New Testament does not contain any prophecies about it. No one. The idea of a "restored earthly Jerusalem" is not Biblical.

2) The New Jerusalem, also known as the "heavenly Jerusalem" already exists and is infinitely greater than the carnal Jerusalem ever was or ever could be. We know the heavenly Jerusalem already exists because Paul contrasted it with the carnal Jerusalem that was about to be destroyed in the first century. God's Word does not indicate that He has any interest in that dusty old chunk of real estate over any other. The last thing He said about it was that it was spiritually no better than Egypt and Sodom. Then He destroyed it.

3) An earthly Jerusalem is utterly meaningless when it comes to the Gospel. It is possible, of course, that God will use it for His purposes. A converted mass of Jews would make a fine witness for Christ. But the Gospel is not dependent in any way on the conversion of that particular group of unbelievers. If God has plans to make it "even greater than it was before" He certainly never told His prophets about it (cf. Amos 3.7).



Another thing. Jesus said that the end is not yet, because there would be false prophets, and false Christs. Simon Bar Cochba was one of the first false Christs.


That is not correct. There were plenty of false prophets before 70 AD. Here is the testimony of the eye-witness Josephus (Wars 6.5.2 (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm)):
2. And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward. They also burnt down the treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers [to contain such furniture]. The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

Unlike their unbelieving brethren, the Jews who believed their God YHWH when He came in the Day of Visitation obeyed His warning and fled Jerusalem when the Romans began to surround the city. Hundreds of thousands of others continued to come to Jerusalem for Passover, and it was then that they were caught by surprise when the army suddenly closed off the city and they could not escape (Wars 6.9.3):
the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand [=1.1million], the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly.

This fulfills the prophecies of Christ in the Olivet Discourse and the first four seals of Revelation:
Luke 21:10-11 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation [Second Seal], and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences [Third and Fourth Seals]; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Revelation 6:3-8 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 5 ¶ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. [FAMINE] 7 ¶ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death [pestilence], and with the beasts of the earth.

As for the signs that preceeded the destruction, Josephus reports there were many, which also are reported in the Talmud. That means we have two Jewish sources that attest to the fulfillment of the prophecies of Christ and the rest of the Bible.

Therefore, the words of Christ concerning the false prophets has been fulfilled. But we already knew that, because the primary focus of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the Temple and the end of the Jewish age which everyone knows happened in 70 AD. I know of nothing in the Olivet Discourse that is still future.

Richard

[gilgal]

Hey there Gilgal,

It is good to be chatting.

I believe that the Bible has very clear answers to your question. Here are three off the top of my head:

1) There is no reason to believe that God has such a desire because the New Testament does not contain any prophecies about it. No one. The idea of a "restored earthly Jerusalem" is not Biblical.

2) The New Jerusalem, also known as the "heavenly Jerusalem" already exists and is infinitely greater than the carnal Jerusalem ever was or ever could be. We know the heavenly Jerusalem already exists because Paul contrasted it with the carnal Jerusalem that was about to be destroyed in the first century. God's Word does not indicate that He has any interest in that dusty old chunk of real estate over any other. The last thing He said about it was that it was spiritually no better than Egypt and Sodom. Then He destroyed it.

3) An earthly Jerusalem is utterly meaningless when it comes to the Gospel. It is possible, of course, that God will use it for His purposes. A converted mass of Jews would make a fine witness for Christ. But the Gospel is not dependent in any way on the conversion of that particular group of unbelievers. If God has plans to make it "even greater than it was before" He certainly never told His prophets about it (cf. Amos 3.7).



That is not correct. There were plenty of false prophets before 70 AD. Here is the testimony of the eye-witness Josephus (Wars 6.5.2 (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm)):
2. And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward. They also burnt down the treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers [to contain such furniture]. The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

Unlike their unbelieving brethren, the Jews who believed their God YHWH when He came in the Day of Visitation obeyed His warning and fled Jerusalem when the Romans began to surround the city. Hundreds of thousands of others continued to come to Jerusalem for Passover, and it was then that they were caught by surprise when the army suddenly closed off the city and they could not escape (Wars 6.9.3):
the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand [=1.1million], the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly.

This fulfills the prophecies of Christ in the Olivet Discourse and the first four seals of Revelation:
Luke 21:10-11 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation [Second Seal], and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences [Third and Fourth Seals]; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Revelation 6:3-8 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 5 ¶ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. [FAMINE] 7 ¶ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death [pestilence], and with the beasts of the earth.

As for the signs that preceeded the destruction, Josephus reports there were many, which also are reported in the Talmud. That means we have two Jewish sources that attest to the fulfillment of the prophecies of Christ and the rest of the Bible.

Therefore, the words of Christ concerning the false prophets has been fulfilled. But we already knew that, because the primary focus of the Olivet Discourse was the destruction of the Temple and the end of the Jewish age which everyone knows happened in 70 AD. I know of nothing in the Olivet Discourse that is still future.

Richard

Yeah but what bothers me is the timing of John's book of Revelation is written about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Also the coming of false prophets didn't end with the destruction of Jerusalem. There are still false prophets in our time.

Nation shall rise against nation. That's still true today with the terroristic threats.

Famines and pestilences are also true today.

You see, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. But God hasn't dealt with evil yet. Sin is still part of our nature. Death is still our future. King David as mentioned in Acts 2 is still buried in his grave.

It's true that God has no desire as Jesus said in John 4 to the Samaritan woman that the day is coming that they who worship God will do so in Spirit and in truth.

But there were attempts to rebuild Jerusalem. Julian the Apostate attempted to do so in around 300AD, right?

[amth]

What if there's a desire to make Jerusalem even greater than it was before? Because Jerusalem most probably receives more pilgrims than Rome because Orthodox and Protestants have that admiration as well as Roman Catholics. Not only that, but the pipelines are being built from the Arab countries to Jerusalem and Israel.

Another thing. Jesus said that the end is not yet, because there would be false prophets, and false Christs. Simon Bar Cochba was one of the first false Christs. There was Jacob Frank from I believe Germany. And the most popular was Shabetai Tzvi (many ways of writing his name) from Turkey. He later converted to Islam teaching that God will make atonement for him (somehow!)
Many politicians among Turks might turn out to be hidden Jews like Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. The name of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was at the beginning Mustafa. He went into the school math teacher and his name was also Mustafa. One day the teacher saw the Mustafa when he was intelligent and he told him. We have the same name but your intelligence is higher than my shalt thou therefore as of today no longer hot but Mustafa your name from today Mustafa Kemal. Later, as the name scheme was introduced, he was given the name Ataturk. Father of the Turks.

There is I believe a code to humanity I believe change his name. As before Abrm to Abraham or Jacob with Israel.

Kemal The name of the teacher has is interesting. In 39th Book of the Tanakh is YHVH send a Mlaki. The 39th Paper is also Mlaki. K-e-m-a-l ---> M-l-e-k-a. But I believe this is not the Mlaki but it makes a note to Mlaki. The Turkish national anthem called "istiklal Marsi" Because I believe is a code on the Mlaki of YHVH.


In the Turkish National Anthem will believe I have a stern coded the humanity the truth will bring.

Turkey -> Turkey ---> door-key. Turkey is Key of the Door.

two sets from the Turkish National Anthem.
--
For That is the star of my nation, and it will forever shine;
It is mine, and belongs solely to my valiant nation.
---
The name Turk I believe a code. Key is Turkish Anahtar "Anah (s) tar." Turkey is key and the key is the star. I believe this star is Elia and the name Kemal shows, I believe that Elia similar hot.

The whole terror in the whole turkey is because I believe this star is not born. But the star is born long I believe and I believe this star has experienced this year he Elia. According to Islamic calendar, we have the year 1429th 249 is the numerical value of Hlias say Elia.

YHVH ALLAH know better.

[basilfo]

Yeah but what bothers me is the timing of John's book of Revelation is written about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.

That's an opinion of some. But many scholars also believe the internal and external evidence dates the writing of Rev in the 60'sAD. I recommend a very thorough book on the subject "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry. I have read the book and am convinced John wrote it prior to 70AD.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants -- things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified [it] by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near.

If it was written in 95 AD, what events after that date were "things which must shortly take place" for "the time [is] near"??


Also the coming of false prophets didn't end with the destruction of Jerusalem. There are still false prophets in our time.

Nation shall rise against nation. That's still true today with the terroristic threats.

Famines and pestilences are also true today.

True but irrelevant. Those prophesies ("these things") were fulfilled in the 1st century. Doesn't matter if similar events occur again.




But there were attempts to rebuild Jerusalem. Julian the Apostate attempted to do so in around 300AD, right?

What's that got to do with anything? Could you provide chap/verse where Jerusalem or even the temple will be rebuilt? I haven't seen it.

Peace to you,
Dave

[Brother Les]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilgal
Yeah but what bothers me is the timing of John's book of Revelation is written about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem.

basilfo posted
That's an opinion of some. But many scholars also believe the internal and external evidence dates the writing of Rev in the 60'sAD. I recommend a very thorough book on the subject "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry. I have read the book and am convinced John wrote it prior to 70AD.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants -- things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified [it] by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near.

If it was written in 95 AD, what events after that date were "things which must shortly take place" for "the time [is] near"??


Quote:




To aid in your understanding of when 'Revelation' was given to John, I have posted a url, so you can read it online.

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2206_47e.htm


Brother Les

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You see, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. But God hasn't dealt with evil yet. Sin is still part of our nature. Death is still our future. King David as mentioned in Acts 2 is still buried in his grave.

I would say that God "dealt with sin" on the Cross. The fact that there is still sin "ouside the gates" of the New Jerusalem seems to imply that it will never be erradicated in the sense that you imply, regardless if we interpret the "New Jerusalem" as a symbol of the Church now or as something still future.


As for death, that too has been abolished, as it is written:
John 11:21-26 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Do you see that? The red text presents the futurist view of a distant resurrection in "the last day" as if believers would die and wait for that event before living again, and then Christ tells her the truth, the He is the Resurrection and that He has overcome death, and so anyone who believes in Him will never die! Think about the real meaning of those words. Christ said that you will never die. Christ said that you will never die. Christ said that you will never die. Death is abolished in Christ.

As for sin being "part of our nature" - I do not believe that is true. There is no such thing as "sin nature." There is only the struggle between "flesh" and "spirit." Otherwise, tell me how Adam and Eve sinned without a "sin nature"? The problem is not "our nature" but our relationship with God. And when that relationship is set right through Christ, we are no longer separated from God. This then connects with the question of Death. Most folks understand death as "separation" and "spiritual death" as "separation from God." This too has been overcome by the death of Christ, as it is written:

Romans 8:37-39 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The fundamental root of this misunderstanding about sin and death is that folks fail to recognize how the words are being used with double meanings. This is super obvious in the quote from John 11 above. Christ said "he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

So the bottom line is that Christ used the word "death" in two different senses. One is carnal death that everyone will experience. The other is spiritual death that no believer will ever experience. Thus we learn from the Bible that we must discern which meaning of "death" was intended in the passages that speak of death being abolished.

Richard

[gilgal]

Ok.So where's the evidence? How should I know if it's given before 70 AD rather than Emperor Domitian's time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ok.So where's the evidence? How should I know if it's given before 70 AD rather than Emperor Domitian's time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

There are two primary sources of evidence:

1) Internal evidence from the Bible
2) External evidence.

In my estimation, the internal evidence is overwhelming in favor of the fact that Revelation was written before 70 AD. I say "overwhelming" because Revelation is integrated with the 70 AD fulfillment of Daniel and the Olivet Discourse.

If, on the other hand, the late date of Revelation is valid, then the book remains a complete mystery with no one having any real evidence of what it really means because it says that the things were going to happen "soon" because "the time is at hand" yet nothing in history matches those events except the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Bottom line: I have never read a convincing argument of what Revelation really means if it was written after 70 AD, whereas it makes perfect sense and is fully integrated with the plain and simple message of the entire Bible and the flow of history if it was written before 70 AD. This seems to be conclusive evidence of when it was really written.

Richard

[gilgal]

I'm interested in seeing the evidence both scripture (first) and then historical.

Did the sun darken in 70AD as it says in Revelation 6?

Why is there two opinions that John wrote prior to 70AD and then around 90AD?

Here's another one. Why did John address to the 7 churches of Asia and NOT to the churches of Jerusalem and round about?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I'm interested in seeing the evidence both scripture (first) and then historical.

Did the sun darken in 70AD as it says in Revelation 6?

Why is there two opinions that John wrote prior to 70AD and then around 90AD?

Here's another one. Why did John address to the 7 churches of Asia and NOT to the churches of Jerusalem and round about?
Hey there Gilgal,

Excellent questions! And I agree with your approach .... Scripture first, then history (though they are not really independent of course).

Now to answer your questions:

Did the sun darken in 70AD as it says in Revelation 6?

Absolutley! The symbolic meaning of the sun going dark is established with perfect clarity in the Old Testament. When God declared that He would destroy the rule of Babylon, He said this:

Isaiah 13:9-11 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
God said essentially the same thing when He declared His judgment upon Eqypt:

Ezekiel 32:7-8 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
Basically, these symbols mean that God was going to "knock out their lights." I know of nothing in the Bible that would suggest that the literal sun would literally "go dark" or that the literal starts would literally fall to the earth. It is obviously symbolic language. Futhermore, the examples above are extremely significant in that God described first century apostate Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" and later called her the "Great harlot Babyolon." It is no surprise that she received the same fate as her spiritual predecesors.

Why is there two opinions that John wrote prior to 70AD and then around 90AD?

There is testimony from Irenaeus that John wrote at the end of the reign of Domitian, which gives a date in the late 90s. But this is just one man's opinion found as an aside in a message talking about other things. I believe it is a powerful testimony because it was written very early, but by itself it proves nothing since we have to compare it with all the other information we have. The simple fact is that that no one can prove with certainty when the book was written using only the historical record. If you really want to pursue this question, I strongly encourage you to read Gentry's book Before Jerusalem Fell which argues for the early date. It is available free online, as mentioned by Brother Les earlier in this thread. Here is the link:

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2206_47e.htm


Why did John address to the 7 churches of Asia and NOT to the churches of Jerusalem and round about?

That's a very good question. Unfortunately, I don't have a ready answer. But we must understand that it wasn't John's choice. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who told him to write to those seven churches, and I am not privy to the reasons the Lord did that.

Richard

[gilgal]

And funny... in the book of Acts the Spirit of God for some reason forbid Paul to go to Asia Minor (acts 16? 17?).

Matthew 24 records of the gathering of the elect from the four winds heaven. That sounds similar to 1 Thessalonians 4 known as the rapture. What do you think?

[gilgal]

Let me add. The reason I ask why Jesus is addressing to the 7 churches of Asia Minor at first and then showing the fall of Jerusalem in Revelation 17 (actually we think it's Jerusalem because of the 7 mountains, but in Jesus' time Jerusalem wasn't ruling the kings of the earth. But if you consider the Jerusalem of today it might be future fulfillment since the Zionist Congress in Vienna in the late 1800's planned the break-up of the Ottoman empire to get a hold of the land of Israel in 1917. Of course the British took over, meaning Rothschild).

Also when he addresses to the 7 churches, as you read the promises good and bad, they are mentioned somewhere later on in the book of revelation. For example when Jesus says to Pergamos that he will fight with them with the sword of his mouth you later on read that in Revelation 19 he comes to fight with the sword of his mouth.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Matthew 24 records of the gathering of the elect from the four winds heaven. That sounds similar to 1 Thessalonians 4 known as the rapture. What do you think?

The literal meaning of the word "angel" is from the Greek angelos which means "messenger." Here is how Strong's defines it:
αγγελος aggelos {ang'-el-os} from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); TDNT - 1:74,12; n m AV - angel 179, messenger 7; 186 1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

In the highly symbolic book of Revelation, we see the symbol of an angel preaching the everlasting Gospel:
Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth [land of Israel], and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

If the preterist view is valid, and the "hour of his judgment" refers to 70 AD, then the angel is propably a symbol of the thousands of Christian evangelists that were preaching the Gospel right up to 70 AD. This coheres with the teaching of Christ:
Matthew 10:21-23 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
I know of no other eschatological interpretation that makes sense of that verse. It clearly states that the son of man would come in the first century before the Christians could finish evangelizing every city. This is why the pretersit view is so very persuasive. Unlike any other interpretation, it not only deals with what the Bible really says, but is totally confirmed by what the Bible really says. We don't need to twists its words into unbelievable pretzels to sustain the interpretation. On the contrrary, the interpretation is derived directly from the plain meaning of the text.


Thus, we understand the "gathering" of the elect by the angels as the preaching of the Gospel in the first century. All those who believed were saved from the wrath that was soon to be poured out upon apostate Jerusalem, as it is written:
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

And what exactly was that "wrath" that was to come? Paul mentioned it agin in the next chapter of the same book:
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Christians were saved from this wrath as mentioned in vs. 10 cited above, and repeated in chapter 5:
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The exact phrase translated as "together with" is the Greek "hama sun" - Paul used it in exactly one other verse in the previous chapter. And this brings us back by a commodius vicus of recirculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnegans_Wake) to the "rapture" passage of 1 Thessalonians that you cited in your post:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Note that both passages use exactly the same phrase, contain nearly identical elements (death and life in Christ, etc), and end with nearly identical statements to "comfort" one another with these words. To properly interpret 1 Thess 4 one must link it to 1 Thess 5. This is another example of how to use the Fundamental Principle of Biblical Hermeneutics. The "traditional" pop futurist interpretation of this verse can not be confirmed because there is no other verse that speaks of a "rapture" and so there is no way to know if it is true. But when the Scritpure is compared with Scritpure and we understand the meaning of the symbols as defined in other Scritpures, the meaning begins to become clear. I don't have time to discuss it all right now, but here's the big clue ... it has nothing to do with magical mystery disappearance of the entire Christian population living the 21st century.

Richard

[gilgal]

The rapture is one thing I doubt. The point that I was trying to make is the gathering of the saints by the trumpet and the four winds as spoken in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. To be caught up inthe cloud may have another meaning than we were taught by the "prophecy" teachers...that God is using the clouds and wind to gather his saints at one location ...not necessarily heaven. We see that (I think the same Greek word is used as well) in Acts 8 when Philip is relocated after the Ethiopian Eunuch is baptized.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The rapture is one thing I doubt. The point that I was trying to make is the gathering of the saints by the trumpet and the four winds as spoken in Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4. To be caught up inthe cloud may have another meaning than we were taught by the "prophecy" teachers...that God is using the clouds and wind to gather his saints at one location ...not necessarily heaven. We see that (I think the same Greek word is used as well) in Acts 8 when Philip is relocated after the Ethiopian Eunuch is baptized.
Hey! That's cool! We see eye-to-eye on that "rapture" thang.

The connection with the Trumpets is super-important. The Fall Feasts began with Trumpets and end with Tabernacles. That fills out the strucutre of Revelation:

Rev 4-5: Passover (Death), Unleavened Bread (Burial), Firstfruits (Resurrection) of Christ.

Rev 7: Pentecost (literal Jews sealed by the Spirit of God, the true "seal of God" is God Himself!).

Rev 8: Trumpets.

Rev 9-20: Day of Atonement (Jews know this as Yom HaDin, the Day of Judgment).

Rev 21-22: Tabernacles (Sucoth).

Pretty cool, eh?

Richard

[gilgal]

Hey! That's cool! We see eye-to-eye on that "rapture" thang.

The connection with the Trumpets is super-important. The Fall Feasts began with Trumpets and end with Tabernacles. That fills out the strucutre of Revelation:

Rev 4-5: Passover (Death), Unleavened Bread (Burial), Firstfruits (Resurrection) of Christ.

Rev 7: Pentecost (literal Jews sealed by the Spirit of God, the true "seal of God" is God Himself!).

Rev 8: Trumpets.

Rev 9-20: Day of Atonement (Jews know this as Yom HaDin, the Day of Judgment).

Rev 21-22: Tabernacles (Sucoth).

Pretty cool, eh?

Richard

Pretty interesting!!!
What do you think of the 7 church/7 church periods?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Pretty interesting!!!
What do you think of the 7 church/7 church periods?
It's always seemed "intuitively correct" cuz there are lots of strong correlations with the general flow of history. But I don't have a "strong" opinion about it because I'm not sure how it ties in with any other elements from Scripture. I was for a long time leaning towards the "Historicist" view of Revelation, but the clarity and power of Preterism (or better "Fullfilled Eschatology") finally won me over.

Richard

[gilgal]

This site seems to be a good study on the 7 churches:
http://philologos.org/%5F%5Feb%2Djki/

[gilgal]

The literal meaning of the word "angel" is from the Greek angelos which means "messenger." Here is how Strong's defines it:
αγγελος aggelos {ang'-el-os} from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); TDNT - 1:74,12; n m AV - angel 179, messenger 7; 186 1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Richard

Yeah but don't forget that Michael in the book of Daniel was considered the prince of Daniel's people, the Jews. Yet, he was an angel.

Jesus even mentioned that children have angels too.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yeah but don't forget that Michael in the book of Daniel was considered the prince of Daniel's people, the Jews. Yet, he was an angel.

Jesus even mentioned that children have angels too.
Good point. I certaintly did mean that there are no "angels" in the traditioinal sense. Only that the symbol of the angel in Revelation may not be to one of those creatures, but rather to the humans who carried the message of the Gospel to the Jews in the first century.

Good night!

Talk more tomorrow.

Richard

[gilgal]

Good point. I certaintly did mean that there are no "angels" in the traditioinal sense. Only that the symbol of the angel in Revelation may not be to one of those creatures, but rather to the humans who carried the message of the Gospel to the Jews in the first century.

Good night!

Talk more tomorrow.

Richard
I don't understand. Are you a Sadducee!?!

Or you deny that angels have wings. That, I would agree.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good point. I certaintly did mean that there are no "angels" in the traditioinal sense. Only that the symbol of the angel in Revelation may not be to one of those creatures, but rather to the humans who carried the message of the Gospel to the Jews in the first century.

Good night!

Talk more tomorrow.

Richard


I don't understand. Are you a Sadducee!?!

Or you deny that angels have wings. That, I would agree.

Ha! I see the confusion. It was late and I was typing fast and I left out a little three letter word that begins with "n" and ends with "t" - here is what I meant to write:
"Good point. I certaintly did NOT mean that there are no "angels" in the traditioinal sense."
:lol: - I am no "Sadducee." I believe in angels and the resurrection.

Richard

[gilgal]

Ha! I see the confusion. It was late and I was typing fast and I left out a little three letter word that begins with "n" and ends with "t" - here is what I meant to write:
"Good point. I certaintly did NOT mean that there are no "angels" in the traditioinal sense."
:lol: - I am no "Sadducee." I believe in angels and the resurrection.

Richard

Well...I don't cee u looking Sadd!

[gilgal]

What is the meaning of the name England? Anglosaxon? Didn't they rise to power in the 17th century? It might tie in to the 17th spoke Malachi's "I will send my messenger".

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Well...I don't cee u looking Sadd!
I was wondering how long it would be before that tired old pun entered our conversation. :lol: I'm definitely going to have to add a "groan" icon! <snicker>

Richard

[amth]

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. The name of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was at the beginning Mustafa. He went into the school math teacher and his name was also Mustafa. One day the teacher saw the Mustafa when he was intelligent and he told him. We have the same name but your intelligence is higher than my shalt thou therefore as of today no longer hot but Mustafa your name from today Mustafa Kemal. Later, as the name scheme was introduced, he was given the name Ataturk. Father of the Turks.

There is I believe a code to humanity I believe change his name. As before Abrm to Abraham or Jacob with Israel.

Kemal The name of the teacher has is interesting. In 39th Book of the Tanakh is YHVH send a Mlaki. The 39th Paper is also Mlaki. K-e-m-a-l ---> M-l-e-k-a. But I believe this is not the Mlaki but it makes a note to Mlaki. The Turkish national anthem called "istiklal Marsi" Because I believe is a code on the Mlaki of YHVH.


In the Turkish National Anthem will believe I have a stern coded the humanity the truth will bring.

Turkey -> Turkey ---> door-key. Turkey is Key of the Door.

two sets from the Turkish National Anthem.
--
For That is the star of my nation, and it will forever shine;
It is mine, and belongs solely to my valiant nation.
---
The name Turk I believe a code. Key is Turkish Anahtar "Anah (s) tar." Turkey is key and the key is the star. I believe this star is Elia and the name Kemal shows, I believe that Elia similar hot.

The whole terror in the whole turkey is because I believe this star is not born. But the star is born long I believe and I believe this star has experienced this year he Elia. According to Islamic calendar, we have the year 1429th 249 is the numerical value of Hlias say Elia.

YHVH ALLAH know better.

The first word key in bible coming in book of judegem. 3 capital 25 vers. In this verse is the word Alih too but not with A but with O Ayin the word is Olih and richard wrote as aliyah. And in this verse ist the word bush too ! I believe G.W.Bush is sign of Elijah too. All value for this verse is 4729--249 hlias7 i believe 7 is for the coming of the day 7 the judegment day in the judegment book very interesting !

YHVH ALLAH know better.