Fragments..

[duxrow]

Jesus fed the 5,000 men, plus women and children, with five loaves and two fishes -- and afterwards they took up twelve (12) baskets of fragments!

Then he took seven loaves and a few fishes, Matt 15:34, and fed 4,000 men, plus women and children -- and afterward collected seven (7) baskets of fragments!

Is this some kind of subtle arithmetic? Or should we understand how Jesus is THE WORD and the TRUE BREAD that has now been published throughout the world, both orally and in print, for such a long time that the fragments (what others have written about it) now exceed what He spoke... :cool3:

Imagine that! a kind of bread where the fragments are greater than what you started with; just as thousands upon thousands of books have been written ABOUT the Bible, and just as all those hundreds of people who heard Him speak are bound to have gone home and told their neighbors all about it. This is truly the kind of bread that multiplies! Amen?

[sylvius]

Jesus fed the 5,000 men, plus women and children, with five loaves and two fishes -- and afterwards they took up twelve (12) baskets of fragments!

Then he took seven loaves and a few fishes, Matt 15:34, and fed 4,000 men, plus women and children -- and afterward collected seven (7) baskets of fragments!

Is this some kind of subtle arithmetic? Or should we understand how Jesus is THE WORD and the TRUE BREAD that has now been published throughout the world, both orally and in print, for such a long time that the fragments (what others have written about it) now exceed what He spoke... :cool3:

Imagine that! a kind of bread where the fragments are greater than what you started with; just as thousands upon thousands of books have been written ABOUT the Bible, and just as all those hundreds of people who heard Him speak are bound to have gone home and told their neighbors all about it. This is truly the kind of bread that multiplies! Amen?

Bread is Hebrew "lechem" --of which Jesus said, during the last supper: "Take, this is my body".

Body is Dutch "lichaam" -- a clear Edenic, while corpse is Dutch "lijk", German "Leichnam". In Germany there is also a holiday called "Fronleichnam" http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fronleichnam
Die Bezeichnung Fronleichnam leitet sich vom mittelhochdeutschen vrône lîcham ab „des Herren Leib“

Deuteronomy 8:3, And He afflicted you and let you go hungry, and then fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your forefathers know, so that He would make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but rather by, whatever comes forth from the mouth of the Lord does man live.

The number of five loaves of bread must allude to the letter "hey"(of which the number is 5) that was added to "shishi" in Genesis 1:31.

The germatria of "lechem" is 78. 78 being triangle 12. 5 x 78 = 390, gematria of "shamayim" (heaven), etc.

[Matthjar]

Amen Dux!!! I really like that perspective ....... And great tie in also Sylvius ......... A few other interesting things i noticed from this account are:

A. The fact that Jesus could have just willed it and had a nice box lunch provided to every person....... but that is not how it went down.....
1. Firstly he tells his disciples that they will feed the 5000...... (preparing them to feed the sheep)
2. Jesus breaks the loaves and fishs and gives thanks for them (when faced with a seemingly huge problem instead of focusing on what we dont have we need to be Grateful for what we do have.)
3. The next day on the other side of the lake this same crowd meets him with "Rabbi (teacher) when did you get here." Even though they feint interest in his teachings they are really all about another free lunch. He tells them they should be less interested in physical bread and more interested in nourishment that is eternal.

John 6:
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is one of the stories that further confirms my understanding as Jesus as the Mind of God..... Word of God.... the Thought of God.... as his distinct role in the Trinity.

Sadly very few were interested in Consuming the teachings words and thoughts of Jesus and most of the followers he had gained yesterday by giving them easy to consume physical bread now left him because this teaching was just to hard to digest. further down in verse 63...

63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Yes this Physical realm is of little consequence...... we can eat physical bread and guess what our bodies are still going to die.... However if we consume the thought that Jesus flesh and blood was given for us then we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and gain eternal life and that is Everything!!! In this way Gods creation of us as eternal beings becomes complete..... we then become beings of spirit which is eternal and no longer just an incomplete creation of Body and Mind that is finite.

I find this story is still repeated even today in the "Prosperity churches" that love to believe in a Jesus that gives them Physical rewards even though Jesus is saying you don't get it..... This physical realm is nothing....... flesh counts for nothing..... you SHOULD much more value my teachings and body and blood that can give you a "REAL" "SPIRITUAL" "Eternal" Life.

With Utter devotion to Love and Truth,
Matthjar

[duxrow]

Amen Dux!!! I really like that perspective ....... And great tie in also Sylvius ......... A few other interesting things i noticed from this account are:

A. The fact that Jesus could have just willed it and had a nice box lunch provided to every person....... but that is not how it went down.....

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

With Utter devotion to Love and Truth,
MatthjarFor sure, for sure, Matthjar, it's good stuff. We really should emphasize how Jesus is the Passover Lamb and maybe the kid that was seethed when he speaks of the flesh and blood -- the Bible has been crafted so wonderfully that I'm shocked so many don't understand. Here's a link to my Allegory page:
http://cswnet.com/~tracie/Allegory.htm

[sylvius]

The sixth day ("yom hashishi") was characterized by "bread for two days" ( "lechem yomayim"), which in fact was the sanctification of the sabbath --

Rashi on Genesis 2:3,


And…blessed…and hallowed: He blessed it with manna, for on all the days of the week, it descended for them [in the amount of] an omer per person, whereas on the sixth day,[each one received] a double portion. And He hallowed it with manna, that it did not descend at all on the Sabbath. This verse is written with reference to the future. — [from Gen. Rabbah 11:2]

The NT seemingly does present Jesus as this "bread for two days" (crucified on the sixth day) --

The seven loaves of bread for the 4000 might coincide the seven days of the week forming a new oneness (as eighth day)

7 x 78 = 546 = 2 x (the well-known) 273 (gematria of "rega" - smallest unit of time = Paul's indivisible moment (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

7 x 78 = 6 x 91.

78 = triangle 12,
91 = triangle 13.

[duxrow]

Love that Double-Bread on the 6th Day (day prior to Sabbath Rest) strikes me as meaning that we'll understand more Scripture in the End Times.

:pop2:The 3x10 (OT) and 3x14 (Matthew) and 3x22 (acrostic) makes we wonder if the double-bread leads somehow to a double-22 and our present President.. ?? You think?
1217

[Matthjar]

For sure, for sure, Matthjar, it's good stuff. We really should emphasize how Jesus is the Passover Lamb and maybe the kid that was seethed when he speaks of the flesh and blood -- the Bible has been crafted so wonderfully that I'm shocked so many don't understand. Here's a link to my Allegory page:
http://cswnet.com/~tracie/Allegory.htm

It is so truly amazing and elegant in how stories and ideas written by two separate human authors and 2000+ years apart can come together of form a powerful principle or insight. Seems to be some very strong proof for Divine Inspiration. ;-). I check out your website, it contained alot of information and understanding i did not previously have..... I specially love the allegory of the Cup.... It was good to be reminded of that one.... I believe i had come in to some contact with that truth maybe 25 years ago or so but had completely forgot about it.... many of the others were completely new for me... and are very very exciting.



The paragraph on up close and personal is also very fitting to the times..... I am not sure if you are aware of it or not less than 2 weeks ago ISIS exploded the Shrine to Jonah.

On one of the two most prominent mounds of Nineveh ruins, rises the Mosque (an Nestorian-Assyrian Church before) of prophet Younis "Biblical Jonah", the son of Amittai, from the 8th century BC which is believed to be the burial place of him, and where King Esarhaddon had once built a palace.

This old shrine standing on the site of a Christian church is a stone's throw from the built-up walls and gates of Nineveh. In the middle of the mosque stood a sepulcher, covered with a Persian carpet of silk and silver, and at the four corners, great copper candlesticks with wax tapers, besides several lamps and ostrich shells that hung down from the roof. A whale's tooth, appropriate to Jonah's well-known adventure at sea, is said to be preserved there.

It is one of the most important mosques in Mosul and one of the few historic mosques that are found in the east side of the city.

On July 24, 2014, the building was destroyed by explosives set by forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.[1]

“ISIS militants have destroyed the Prophet Younis (Jonah) shrine east of Mosul city after they seized control of the mosque completely,” a security source, who kept his identity anonymous, told the Iraq-based al-Sumaria News.

“The militants closed all of the mosque doors and prevented worshipers from entering to pray,”

Not sure exactly what that might mean but but considering the whole story of Jonah and Ninevah it seems pertinent.

Here is a link to the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRSDrYUAjCA and CNN report.




I could have swore that i had previous viewed a thread on here detailing typeologies of Christ and Christophanies in the Old testament but i never could relocate it.

Do you know if one exists....??? If not we should start another......

With Utter Devotion to Love and Truth,
Matthjar.

[duxrow]

Matthjar, I couldn't find the Theophany thread, though I seem to remember it too. Am pleased you liked the Allegory page -- There's an Epiphany page too: http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/epiphany.htm

Why do you say TWO authors? I usually speak of The Holy Ghostwriter as "Author and Finisher", Heb 12:2, which eliminates islam and mormon IMO. (both came later..)

Shame about the destruction of antiquities, but am not aware of any connect to End Times. Inclined to discount old shrines because of "Nehushtan" 2K18:4

All the best, Dux

[Matthjar]

Matthjar, I couldn't find the Theophany thread, though I seem to remember it too. Am pleased you liked the Allegory page -- There's an Epiphany page too: http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/epiphany.htm

Why do you say TWO authors? I usually speak of The Holy Ghostwriter as "Author and Finisher", Heb 12:2, which eliminates islam and mormon IMO. (both came later..)

Shame about the destruction of antiquities, but am not aware of any connect to End Times. Inclined to discount old shrines because of "Nehushtan" 2K18:4

All the best, Dux

Cool going to check out the epiphany page also.......

The Two authors was just point out how say Moses authoring some scripture in say 2000 BC Has some incredible synergy with some Scripture written by Paul in 40 Ad ....... and possible ties in with something written by David in 960 BC is a very strong suggestion for Divine Inspiration...... And of course i know you are familiar with much of the synergy shown by Richards Bible wheel and the how the 66 books line up and interrelate...... ;-).

A very valid point with the Bronze Snake..... even though a type of Christ ... it was not Christ and becomes an idol if or when worshiped...... In fact that is exactly why ISIS destroyed the shrine also..... they feel like it was detracting form the worship of Allah. Along with 2 other shrines that same week.

Having said that This is what i read from Jesus Words......

Luke 11:

29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here.

It could be Jonah is the most powerful Typeology of Christ..... as not only does this tell of his Death but his Resurrection Also...... ;-). This is Obviously the
Sign of Jonah (the Death and Resurrection of Christ.) As for the last two parts i fully understand the something greater than Solomon is here and the something greater than Jonah is here; however, is the part before that The Men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement and condemn it.... i assumed that it is talking about the Sign of Jonah. Which obviously condemning the sign of Jonah ( the death and resurrection of Jesus is a bad thing), but then when i look at the Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with the people of this generation and condemn them it seems like a reversal.....

So i wonder if it is saying "the men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement and condemn the wicked generation ; they repented in the time of Jonah and now Jesus is here who is greater than Jonah. I also wonder how does it work in that Jonah was ANGRY about God forgiving Nineveh in the first place....

Also this prolly makes no sense at all..... but ISIS is also a Queen God of the South who the egyptians thought had powers of resurrection and gave birth to Horus (a thinking God) who contended with Set (a animalistic or Sin God) to save the kingdom of Egypt. IDK i think i am just slightly sleep deprived and not thinking clearly, I need to recheck after well rested i think.... In the mean time if ANYONE else cares to chime in about how they view the "It" that the men of Nineveh condemn and the 'Them" that the Queen of the South condemns. I would very much appreciate your take on it. I guess it could also be vital do you think that the do the condemning with there mouths or action.... and do they do the condemning accidently or on purpose.

With Utter devotion to Truth and Love ,
Matthjar.

[duxrow]

Matthjar, :sEm_ImSorry: My wife says "God prepared a great fish, Jonah 1:17, so it might have had bucket seats and A/C". :rofl: We don't see death and resurrection in that story. I also wonder about God forgiving Nineveh in the first place.... Curious this--Jonah foretold the destruction! but Nineveh avoided.. Do we (today in USA) imagine our nation will repent? Was Jonah angry at becoming false prophet?

:yo: here's one from Dec 2011 about Benchmarks
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2653-BIBLE-BENCHMARKS&p=38413#post38413

Rest well, later Gater..:D

[sylvius]

The clue of the feeding of the five and the four thousand might be in the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.

Mark 8


14 Now they had forgotten to bring bread, and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. 15 And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” 16 And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20 “And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21 And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”


The Pharisees and Herodians being mentioned together in Mark 3:6,


Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. 2 And they watched Jesus,[a] to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man with the withered hand, “Come here.” 4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to execute him.


“Stretch out your hand." Greek: Ἔκτεινον τὴν χεῖρα. -- seemingly referring to LXX Genesis 3:22, .

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός ἰδοὺ Aδαμ γέγονεν ὡς εἷς ἐξ ἡμῶν τοῦ γινώσκειν καλὸν καὶ πονηρόν καὶ νῦν μήποτε ἐκτείνῃ τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λάβῃ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ φάγῃ καὶ ζήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα

And the Lord God said, (A)“Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Aand now, lest he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat, and live forever

intimating "bread" to be the fruit of the tree of life.

[sylvius]

Mark 6:41, And taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven and said the blessing and broke the loaves and gave them to the disciples to set before the people.


Blessing over bread:
http://www.aish.com/sh/ht/fn/48969636.html

http://image.aish.com/misc/bread.gif


So "bread" is not conceived as product of a process ( sowing - reaping - threshing - grinding - kneeding - baking ) - - but coming ready-made out of the earth.

[duxrow]

:yo:The water came from the ROCK (1Cor10:4), Sylvie, and the Manna from heaven was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. Ex16:31

Quote from www.aish.com - "When God brought the Jewish people out of Egypt, they spent 40 years in the desert on their way to the Land of Israel. Their survival during this time was totally from the Almighty. He provided a constant source of water (from Miriam's well) and protection (Clouds of Glory and a wall of fire). And for food there was manna, a crystal-like substance that fell from the heavens each day".

Yep, the metaphors of Jesus include Bread as well as the Tree of Life (plus Vine, Door, Lamb, Lion, Star, etc.) so I agree that 'bread' is a good description of the fruit of that tree, but 12 kinds of fruit are on the tree in Rev22:2..:tea:

[sylvius]

:yo:The water came from the ROCK (1Cor10:4), Sylvie, and the Manna from heaven was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. Ex16:31

Quote from www.aish.com - "When God brought the Jewish people out of Egypt, they spent 40 years in the desert on their way to the Land of Israel. Their survival during this time was totally from the Almighty. He provided a constant source of water (from Miriam's well) and protection (Clouds of Glory and a wall of fire). And for food there was manna, a crystal-like substance that fell from the heavens each day".

Yep, the metaphors of Jesus include Bread as well as the Tree of Life (plus Vine, Door, Lamb, Lion, Star, etc.) so I agree that 'bread' is a good description of the fruit of that tree, but 12 kinds of fruit are on the tree in Rev22:2..:tea:

12 kinds of fruit like the 12 baskets of fragments?

[duxrow]

Don't think so, Sylvie -- Many kinds of fruit, some over-ripe.. some NAUGHTY!

Jer24:2 "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad".

Psalms 127:3 "Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward".:winking0071: