Yada, yada, yada. [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

Charisma

06-03-2014, 01:28 PM

Hi toxon - EDIT: I apologise.... Timmy's parody rubbed off on me, temporarily. No offence intended. I have corrected your BW title now,

This is an interesting statement, as it may explain why your feathers appear to be rather easily ruffled.

Have you never read how we are to treat others as we would like to be treated?

In another post you said something like... that David had not judged you and so you would not judge him. Is this what the scripture teaches, really? To me, it sounds only hairbreadth away from an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But, I think I know you better than that... Still, in a message by Art Katz to which I listened recently, he made what I consider to be the most profound observation I have ever heard from any preacher over all the years I've been listening both in real life and cyberspace; that 'being in the church is the most exquisite form of suffering'.

It is nice for you to quote Jesus stating the obvious, but what about all the other things He obviously said, which are million miles higher than, 'do as you would be done by'?

What about 'Love your enemies', 'Pray for them who persecute and despitefully use you' (knowing that a man's enemies may be from among his own 'household' (I know you know that means more than it seems to state on the outside.), and, 'Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.'

One of the things that appears to be missing here, is what Timmy has just brought to the top - that he doesn't consider you a brother if you don't believe that Jesus is God. That totally alters the dynamic, from if you accepted him, and he accepted you.

I am taking a different perspective, in that I am very aware how much and how many factors of spiritual reality do not dawn on us all at the same time, which the Lord God Himself brings to our understanding as we press on day by day. For me, having had the trinity v twinity v sevenspiritsofGod discussion with Timmy, there is no doubt that we are left with the harsh reality that each of us has to be persuaded in our own minds. For me, this is based entirely on what God shows me, and confirms to me, not just from His word, but through His dealings with me. So, for me there is a huge difficulty in taking David's view of Messiah not being God, because of all the doctrinal errors which he piles into that assumption. Additionally, having been a midwife, and having pondered long and hard about what scripture teaches us about birth, there is no other 'man' who had already said, 'a body hast thou prepared me', and, ' Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God', before He was in fleshly physical existence.

Yes, Psalm 139 brings up that God knew us before we were born, but that is a realisation only possible after we are born. Not one of us can claim what is claimed for Messiah, that, 'a body hast thou prepared me'. (And yes, it will also come to refer to the church, after His side was pierced, but not before.) The pattern in scripture of reproduction, is always that the thing reproduces itself. That is why it is so important that we sow to the Spirit and not the flesh. But the idea that God Himself reproduced something (a Son) that was not totally representative of Himself - in the same way as other creatures reproduce themselves, is - forgive me - inconceivable. It is such a simple concept, that it seems an entire edifice of obfuscation has to be built by men in order to obscure it.

The other reality which is hard for humans to get their head round, is the concept of 'Christ in us, the hope of glory'. If Christ can be in us, then how?

I am not saying we become God, or that as sons of God we will receive more freedom (to do what we want - as some universalists believe) than our Lord Jesus had, but for us to become partakers of the divine nature, now, is perfectly compatible with Messiah, the Son of God, having 'partaken' of flesh and blood. The reciprocation is obvious. Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, forever.

As I wrote in another thread, God became a man, is both plausible and possible. Man became a god - is paganism. And you know that. What I don't understand - and really don't understand - is how you can be satisfied with the explanation that Messiah is not God, if you have received the Holy Spirit. And if you have received the Holy Spirit, has not the Father and the Son come to dwell in you? And if the Son, how can a 'not God' man, come to dwell in you? That makes far less sense than, 'I and my Father are one'; because we are all 'one' with our parents (and there is more to Elohyim than two).

Timmy has asked you for scripture. Please show how you cover all the places which would indicate that there is human face to Yahweh, without denying His power to reveal Himself in human form if He so chooses?

toxon

06-03-2014, 03:10 PM

Duh!

Timmy sees no limbs strewn neither hither nor yon.

Quarshing false prophets, teachers, and the like???
...and yo call that evil..and you must be rattling on about the Twig DaividiaM you seidwynder.

David has been shown more than enough to turn and place all his dependence in Yeshua to save him from himself and yet he persists in saying things he has already ben disproven concerning...either that, or they lay as traps to ensnare him in his own unbelief: which is the root and source of such ignorance in the first place.

Wrongo bucko!

You persist in having only a powerless form of godliness, believing in an archangel more than pursuing identification with Yeshua, so you assume my rewards have come. I experience only a foretaste of what shall come when the Rock of Yah's salvation devastates this aeonic kosmos.

Maybe you are the one who never experiencing here and now the foretaste of the good to come (be that peace, power and authority in the Earth, health, or heirship of all things given to those loving Him) should recapitulate your stance based on mere words written is stone STS.

You call the LXX your holy writ.

Mine is Christ Jesus, and arguing words with the likes of insistent to remain as yet another stubbornly perplexed person (such as yourself) only insures your demise that much quicker.

You are the one calling good evil and evil good, claiming whoever does not honor the Father does not honor the Son.
Yet is is Yeshua HaMashiach who opposes you, saying,"...the Father judges no one, but has commited all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him...It is my Father who honors Me, of whom you say He is your God; yet, you have not known Him..."

Your cognitive dissonance is not really even about the Timmy, but against Jesus Himself...so you are trying to make war with somebody who is following orders from THE ONE you deny right to rule your life.

Good lucko bucko...and who is the blasphemer?
What is to keep you from being turned over to Satan that you learn the hard way to just quit that?

When Timmy thinks of the Statikos Toxin, it is seen as a jaunt into the land of pipe dreams somewhere over the rainbow...even though you too have been institutionalized.

Waka waka eh eh,

Timmy

Try again because your quote includes a double negative which you might have missed:

"Ho gar Pater filei ton Huion kai panta deiknusin auto ha autos poiei, kai meizona touton deixei auto erga, hina humeis thaumazete. Hosper gar ho Pater egeirei tous nekrous kai zoopoiei, houtos kai ho Huioshous thelei zoopoiei. Oude gar ho Pater krinei oudena, alla ten krisin pasan dedoken to Huio." ~ "For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may wonder. For as the Father raises up the dead and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will: not because the Father judges no one, contrariwise, all judgment he gives [likewise] to [the] Son."

As for the Head Messenger it is you who worships the messengers. In this you do not honor the Testimony of Yeshua for he says that salvation is of the Jews but you twist what the Jews still believe to this day and attempted to say that they tried to hide the idea that YHWH is a plural entity because of your interpretation of echad, (after you could not prove that "Yeshua is YHWH" as you initially said and apparently still say in violation of the Scripture). If you truly honored the Son you would worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth as he clearly says that the Father seeks from his people. As for Miyka'el you have cherry picked what passages fit your paradigm and ignored what other things you choose not to eat:

Daniel 10:5-6 KJV
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 1:13-16 KJV
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 12:7-11 KJV
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 17:9-14 KJV
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

You jumped the gun and ran headlong into error.
Now you worship the Light Messenger instead of the Creator who sent him.
You have received reprobate mysteries just as `Azazel and his associates.
Miyka'el stands in the midst of the great congregation and says "Who is like God!?!"
You stand on the outside and say "Miyka'el is God!"
So yes it is you who has blasphemed. :)

Timmy

06-03-2014, 03:28 PM

Try again because your quote includes a double negative which you might have missed:

"Ho gar Pater filei ton Huion kai panta deiknusin auto ha autos poiei, kai meizona touton deixei auto erga, hina humeis thaumazete. Hosper gar ho Pater egeirei tous nekrous kai zoopoiei, houtos kai ho Huioshous thelei zoopoiei. Oude gar ho Pater krinei oudena, alla ten krisin pasan dedoken to Huio." ~ "For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may wonder. For as the Father raises up the dead and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will: not because the Father judges no one, contrariwise, all judgment he gives [likewise] to [the] Son."

As for the Head Messenger it is you who worships the messengers. In this you do not honor the Testimony of Yeshua for he says that salvation is of the Jews but you twist what the Jews still believe to this day and attempted to say that they tried to hide the idea that YHWH is a plural entity because of your interpretation of echad, (after you could not prove that "Yeshua is YHWH" as you initially said and apparently still say in violation of the Scripture). If you truly honored the Son you would worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth as he clearly says that the Father seeks from his people. As for Miyka'el you have cherry picked what passages fit your paradigm and ignored what other things you choose not to eat:

Daniel 10:5-6 KJV
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 1:13-16 KJV
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 12:7-11 KJV
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 17:9-14 KJV
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

You jumped the gun and ran headlong into error.
Now you worship the Light Messenger instead of the Creator who sent him.
You have received reprobate mysteries just as `Azazel and his associates.
Miyka'el stands in the midst of the great congregation and says "Who is like God!?!"
You stand on the outside and say "Miyka'el is God!"
So yes it is you who has blasphemed. :)Guess what dingbat?

Double negatives may apply in English to altercate meaning, but you show your ignorance thinking the Greek text is not only a translation of Aramaic words spoken. Betray yourself onward, because you seem not to have proved yourself to others how you misunderstand the thoughts and intents of the text which did not come from Greek culture.

As well, you have ben observed to readily misconstue what others say, and repeat what they never said or meant...that same as you do with the Word of God.

Seidwynder, soon enough your head shall be bruised.

You have proven nothing but your adepthood at perverting what is actually meant from whatever text you slither around seidways.

Tah tah,

Timmy

p.s. The head messenger is your error of limitation too. Yeshua is the creator.

Timmy

06-03-2014, 03:50 PM

In dedication to the mental shortsighted neglectful thinking of Statikos Toxin
AN ODE TO THE SAME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WQN_sgPFkY

toxon

06-03-2014, 04:30 PM

Guess what dingbat?

Double negatives may apply in English to altercate meaning, but you show your ignorance thinking the Greek text is not only a translation of Aramaic words spoken. Betray yourself onward, because you seem not to have proved yourself to others how you misunderstand the thoughts and intents of the text which did not come from Greek culture.

As well, you have ben observed to readily misconstue what others say, and repeat what they never said or meant...that same as you do with the Word of God.

Seidwynder, soon enough your head shall be bruised.

You have proven nothing but your adepthood at perverting what is actually meant from whatever text you slither around seidways.

Tah tah,

Timmy

p.s. The head messenger is your error of limitation too. Yeshua is the creator.

Actually Miyka'el is the Arche-Messenger meaning literally the Ruler of the Messengers which is exactly what Yeshua is because even you too are a messenger whether for the good or whether for the evil. As for the Greek those are your made up rules which were handed down to you from your fathers. Those are not the same rules of the authors since you now claim to know their intent. Neither is there anything found written in "original Aramaic" as you seem to imply, (except the possibility of an original Aramaic text of Matthew which if true is still no longer available). Double negatives may or may not translate into English depending on the context and are therefore once again heavily dependent upon the translators and how they either will or will not slant the text according to their own mindsets. This context is Yeshua having just said that ALL THINGS THE FATHER DOES HE LIKEWISE SHOWS TO THE SON. To say that the Father does not judge anyone is likewise contrary to many TaNaK passages as you should have well known if you are anything close to what you claim to be. :rolleyes:

toxon

06-03-2014, 05:44 PM

Hi toxon - EDIT: I apologise.... Timmy's parody rubbed off on me, temporarily. No offence intended. I have corrected your BW title now,

This is an interesting statement, as it may explain why your feathers appear to be rather easily ruffled.

In another post you said something like... that David had not judged you and so you would not judge him. Is this what the scripture teaches, really? To me, it sounds only hairbreadth away from an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But, I think I know you better than that... Still, in a message by Art Katz to which I listened recently, he made what I consider to be the most profound observation I have ever heard from any preacher over all the years I've been listening both in real life and cyberspace; that 'being in the church is the most exquisite form of suffering'.

It is nice for you to quote Jesus stating the obvious, but what about all the other things He obviously said, which are million miles higher than, 'do as you would be done by'?

What about 'Love your enemies', 'Pray for them who persecute and despitefully use you' (knowing that a man's enemies may be from among his own 'household' (I know you know that means more than it seems to state on the outside.), and, 'Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.'

One of the things that appears to be missing here, is what Timmy has just brought to the top - that he doesn't consider you a brother if you don't believe that Jesus is God. That totally alters the dynamic, from if you accepted him, and he accepted you.

I am taking a different perspective, in that I am very aware how much and how many factors of spiritual reality do not dawn on us all at the same time, which the Lord God Himself brings to our understanding as we press on day by day. For me, having had the trinity v twinity v sevenspiritsofGod discussion with Timmy, there is no doubt that we are left with the harsh reality that each of us has to be persuaded in our own minds. For me, this is based entirely on what God shows me, and confirms to me, not just from His word, but through His dealings with me. So, for me there is a huge difficulty in taking David's view of Messiah not being God, because of all the doctrinal errors which he piles into that assumption. Additionally, having been a midwife, and having pondered long and hard about what scripture teaches us about birth, there is no other 'man' who had already said, 'a body hast thou prepared me', and, ' Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God', before He was in fleshly physical existence.

Yes, Psalm 139 brings up that God knew us before we were born, but that is a realisation only possible after we are born. Not one of us can claim what is claimed for Messiah, that, 'a body hast thou prepared me'. (And yes, it will also come to refer to the church, after His side was pierced, but not before.) The pattern in scripture of reproduction, is always that the thing reproduces itself. That is why it is so important that we sow to the Spirit and not the flesh. But the idea that God Himself reproduced something (a Son) that was not totally representative of Himself - in the same way as other creatures reproduce themselves, is - forgive me - inconceivable. It is such a simple concept, that it seems an entire edifice of obfuscation has to be built by men in order to obscure it.

The other reality which is hard for humans to get their head round, is the concept of 'Christ in us, the hope of glory'. If Christ can be in us, then how?

I am not saying we become God, or that as sons of God we will receive more freedom (to do what we want - as some universalists believe) than our Lord Jesus had, but for us to become partakers of the divine nature, now, is perfectly compatible with Messiah, the Son of God, having 'partaken' of flesh and blood. The reciprocation is obvious. Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, forever.

As I wrote in another thread, God became a man, is both plausible and possible. Man became a god - is paganism. And you know that. What I don't understand - and really don't understand - is how you can be satisfied with the explanation that Messiah is not God, if you have received the Holy Spirit. And if you have received the Holy Spirit, has not the Father and the Son come to dwell in you? And if the Son, how can a 'not God' man, come to dwell in you? That makes far less sense than, 'I and my Father are one'; because we are all 'one' with our parents (and there is more to Elohyim than two).

Timmy has asked you for scripture. Please show how you cover all the places which would indicate that there is human face to Yahweh, without denying His power to reveal Himself in human form if He so chooses?

Yep, that's right, the Timmy says I cannot be his brother because I do not believe what he believes and you pretty much said the same in your other thread already. But even if we are brothers where has the Timmy ever repented or asked forgiveness? Truly that is the hard part is it not? As you see he continues spewing filthy names and accusations because he has nothing else with which to defend his belief system. Paul gives the following speech to unbelievers at Athens which clearly disputes your and the Timmy's ideas about who is a brother and who is not:

Acts 17:22-39 KJV
22. Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

We are all the offspring of God who is our heavenly Father:
FROM ONE BLOOD ALL NATIONS OF MEN = BRETHREN

As for praying for my "enemies" I truly do not even have any enemies here. Have you not heard anything I have been trying to say up to this point? And how do you know who I pray for or not? Go look back at the byter and see what he has to say lately. I only did my very small part as was given me from above. I pray for those whom you would likely presume to be "enemies" and many times more often than not my petitions are answered in the affirmative over the long walk. Your only true enemy is your own will which remains yet unbroken. However every disciple of Yeshua must empty himself of himself as Yeshua did and forfeit his own will, pride, and self determination. If you will not utterly deny yourself and apollumi-destroy-tear-down your own soul then he clearly states that you cannot be his disciple.

Timmy

06-03-2014, 06:27 PM

Actually Miyka'el is the Arche-Messenger meaning literally the Ruler of the Messengers which is exactly what Yeshua is because even you too are a messenger whether for the good or whether for the evil. As for the Greek those are your made up rules which were handed down to you from your fathers. Those are not the same rules of the authors since you now claim to know their intent. Neither is there anything found written in "original Aramaic" as you seem to imply, (except the possibility of an original Aramaic text of Matthew which if true is still no longer available). Double negatives may or may not translate into English depending on the context and are therefore once again heavily dependent upon the translators and how they either will or will not slant the text according to their own mindsets. This context is Yeshua having just said that ALL THINGS THE FATHER DOES HE LIKEWISE SHOWS TO THE SON. To say that the Father does not judge anyone is likewise contrary to many TaNaK passages as you should have well known if you are anything close to what you claim to be. :rolleyes:Hi toxon,

It seems perhaps justba sleight bit shortsighted emphasizing Jesus to merely be only the arche messenger when he presents himself being the Living Word of God and Yaweh God of Armies in His own Revelation (19.11-16).
(Yeshayahu 63.1-6 is directly related to the above passage, where Yaweh says it is His own right arm who brings salvation for His own purpose and takes vengeance on all who do not stand with Him.)

Do you even think you might just be missing even a little bit of the big picture???

Timmy never said original aramaic, and although the text is not accessible presently, there are extant copies here in the states.

As for the rest, are you implying that the Father has always been powerless to delegate all things into the Sons hands, or is it you are saying the Father does not honor His Son??? (Recall that both Elohiym in perfect likeness of one another never change.)

...and yes, that which was translated into Greek is u p to the discretion of the translators and editors...which calls into question alot considering much of this was done at the hands of Romanism with an alterior agenda afoot.

So look at you. You claim i claim i know the authors intent.
So of course you must correct this taking text one step removed from the parabolic Hebraic thoughts/intentions, and expound your misunderstandings as though these notions are supposed to hold much more credibility???
...is this way of doing stupid or what? Is this all you know to do?

Timmy wonders if that you may think that as long as you are even talking about things somewhat loosely related to the footwork of what salty light bearing is all about, you may be generous enough?

Praytell what is your pursuit?
It certainly has never been shown to be any part of the Everlasting Covenant by/through the gospel of Jesus/God.

Curiouser and cuuriouser,

Timmy

Timmy

06-03-2014, 06:41 PM

Charisma and toxon,

Being brothers out from one physical blood hardly comes close to being brothers in covenant.

Pray on toxon, but meanwhile put feet to the words seeing whether God approves irregardless of others assumptive assertions.

Charisma

06-03-2014, 07:14 PM

Hi Timmy,

When I saw you were replying, I held fire, but now I will finish my post and send it. I have a comment in mind about manuscripts, too, but very different.

Being brothers out from one physical blood hardly comes close to being brothers in covenant.

About this I resisted to comment but it was tempting! However, be not too fast to assume toxon does not have the Spirit. False doctrine, whosever it is, is always beguiling to religious flesh, and that being the case, we all have to have our minds renewed over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Charisma

06-03-2014, 07:47 PM

Hi toxon,

This post began as a comment on the following quote, but it has drifted on somewhat from there. No apologies for that except for its greater range.

Timmy sees no limbs strewn neither hither nor yon.

I have found Timmy to have an astonishingly high pain threshold and to be able to stomach visual input which would do my brain no good whatever. So, when he does a little imitation of an ancient prophet's more extreme satire, it's just to make sure that the message is nice and clear, and no more offensive (in his mind) than those by any of the biblical characters who used similar tactics to make their statements unmissable. I have to say, as time goes by this procedure has been slowly metamorphosing. Into what? We shall see. :) When it comes to making sense, sometimes, you just have to run with the balls you can catch, and let the others fall to the ground for the time being.

Going back to Messiah proceeding forth from the Father... Don't you see that we also are/were all with the Son, in the Father, before time?

The difference between us and Him is timing. All that were in Adam, died. So although Adam was modeled on the perfect Son, having come forth before Him, when Messiah came straight from the Father, He was still free of all Adam's sin and death. Yes?

The idea that we do not have a spirit of our own is very hard to support from scripture, particularly because we are told that the spirit of a man goes back to God when he dies - which is exactly what happened when the Messiah died, according to John and much scripture before John. Therefore, when the writer to the Hebrews says, 'shall we not rather be subject to the Father of spirits (plural) and live?' this is totally in keeping with what Paul said at the beginning of Ephesians 2, where he refers to 'the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience' (unbelief) - and we know that spirit is the devil.

' ... ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.'

How is a person to overcome the spirit which works in unbelievers, unless he is strengthened by a stronger spirit - the Holy Spirit - who also reveals the mind of God to the believer (although sometimes there is a disconnect in understanding due to the need for a renewed mind)?

How is a person to receive that stronger Spirit, except he sink into Christ's death so that he can be raised by the glory of the Father, in Him?

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: ..

18For through him we both [Jew and Gentile] have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...'

How can Yeshua ask for this if He is only a man? I genuinely have no idea how you can hold to the idea that He is only a man.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord,
Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

He was Lord before He came to earth, is what this prophecy is telling us. It is even saying that His Father would make His enemies His footstool. Where have we heard that before?

John 14:Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

There is also a huge discussion to be had about whose love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Is it God's love, as Paul says first, or is it Messiah's love? Is that the same love, or, is Messiah's limited somehow by His humanity? Why would Paul say that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, if the love of God was better and greater? Or, by the Holy Spirit, is it just one love? God is love. And what is the effect of God's love in our hearts, anyway? Surely God's love is the love He has for us (others) and if we have that love, we will 'love' beyond ourselves, just as He did?

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Interesting that we become filled with 'the fulness of God' by receiving the love of Christ, don't you think? I've never looked at these verses in the context of a discussion about the deity of Messiah, but they definitely raise some good questions.

By the way, I am not at all following the discussion about angels. Hebrews 1 and 2 makes exceptionally clear that Yeshua was not an angel when He was here, and that when He was born, the holy angels were commanded to worship Him. His role as a messenger of God before His incarnation is a completely different thing from Him being merely a ministering spirit - a flame of fire. And anyway... it sounds as if you don't believe He existed before He was born on earth, so you must have some other explanation for the 'Angel' which went with the Israelites, in whom Yahweh's name was residing.

Now, the things I was thinking about the Septuagint, are several. The first is, what was the purpose of translating it into Greek at all? Was it that Hebrews had become so removed from their natural roots, that they had lost the language and needed it to be brought into the common vernacular? Or, was it because the Hebrews who had control of the originals had become so worldly? Think about it. Think about what Malachi had written to the priests about a hundred or more years earlier; statements like (chapter 1):

6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master:
if then I be a father, where is mine honour?
and if I be a master, where is my fear?
saith the Lord of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name.
And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar;
and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee?
In that ye say, The table of the Lord is contemptible.
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil?
and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?
offer it now unto thy governor;
will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the Lord of hosts.
9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us:
this hath been by your means:
will he regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts.
10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought?
neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought.
I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts,
neither will I accept an offering at your hand.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say,
The table of the Lord is polluted;
and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it!
and ye have snuffed at it, saith the Lord of hosts;
and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick;
thus ye brought an offering:
should I accept this of your hand? saith the Lord.
14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male,
and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing:
for I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts,
and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

chapter 2

1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart,
to give glory unto my name, saith the Lord of hosts,
I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings:
yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed,
and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts;
and one shall take you away with it.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge,
and they should seek the law at his mouth:
for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way;
ye have caused many to stumble at the law;
ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people,
according as ye have not kept my ways,
but have been partial in the law.

10 Have we not all one father?
hath not one God created us?
why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother,
by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

There I will stop. Suffice it to say that these are the spiritual leaders from whom the translators may have been descended. Why else would there eventually have arisen a revival party, who were audacious enough to believe in 'resurrection', if these truths had not been buried under a heap of traditional dissent from 'the word'? 'Edom' had been doing his darnedest to take over, and seems to have been succeeding.

What I wonder also, is whether the modernisation of the text would later assist a new generation of flesh to cry, 'We have no king but Caesar!'

All that said, we still believe that Elohyim has His people strategically placed all the way down history, and in the translation of His word - into whichever languages - there will always be someone fighting for the Spirit of truth and the truth of the Spirit to shine through to the generation at hand. We also believe that what is revealed to us by the written word we do have - with the aid of His Spirit - is sufficient to bring us into the essential new birth. Amen?

I'm going to make a magnificent effort to hit the sack before dawn, :lol: so may the Lord give all His beloved sleep. :pray:

Blessings to you all.

toxon

06-04-2014, 07:33 AM

Hi toxon,

It seems perhaps justba sleight bit shortsighted emphasizing Jesus to merely be only the arche messenger when he presents himself being the Living Word of God and Yaweh God of Armies in His own Revelation (19.11-16).
(Yeshayahu 63.1-6 is directly related to the above passage, where Yaweh says it is His own right arm who brings salvation for His own purpose and takes vengeance on all who do not stand with Him.)

Do you even think you might just be missing even a little bit of the big picture???

Timmy never said original aramaic, and although the text is not accessible presently, there are extant copies here in the states.

As for the rest, are you implying that the Father has always been powerless to delegate all things into the Sons hands, or is it you are saying the Father does not honor His Son??? (Recall that both Elohiym in perfect likeness of one another never change.)

...and yes, that which was translated into Greek is u p to the discretion of the translators and editors...which calls into question alot considering much of this was done at the hands of Romanism with an alterior agenda afoot.

So look at you. You claim i claim i know the authors intent.
So of course you must correct this taking text one step removed from the parabolic Hebraic thoughts/intentions, and expound your misunderstandings as though these notions are supposed to hold much more credibility???
...is this way of doing stupid or what? Is this all you know to do?

Timmy wonders if that you may think that as long as you are even talking about things somewhat loosely related to the footwork of what salty light bearing is all about, you may be generous enough?

Praytell what is your pursuit?
It certainly has never been shown to be any part of the Everlasting Covenant by/through the gospel of Jesus/God.

Curiouser and cuuriouser,

Timmy

My pursuit is the Truth in righteousness together with my brethren. The root used in Archangelos is "archo" which means "ruler" like as in Archons. Yeshua is the Ruler of the messengers but that does not necessarily mean that he is an "angel" himself as most seem to think of when they hear the word angel. Yeshua is the Nagiyd-Brit Commander of the Covenant as well as the Nagiyd-Commander of the messengers; yet likewise he himself is the Chief Messenger who clearly states in many occasions that the Father has SENT him. And who is he whose countenance shines as the Sun?

Daniel 10:5-6 KJV
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 1:13-16 KJV
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And why is the Daniel quote changed to "as the Sun" instead of "appearance of lightning"?
Perhaps it is because Yeshua INHERITED his names as stated previously herein.
We who know him know this name as Kyros-Kuros-Koresh (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?5812-Kyros-Kuros) or "LIKE THE SUN"
In addition it is YHWH who rescues his Son at Golgotha in Revelation 19.
Have I missed the bigger picture as you say? I trow not. :lol:
Olivet Zeytiym (http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/olivet-zeytiym.html)

Timmy

06-06-2014, 10:07 PM

My pursuit is the Truth in righteousness together with my brethren. The root used in Archangelos is "archo" which means "ruler" like as in Archons. Yeshua is the Ruler of the messengers but that does not necessarily mean that he is an "angel" himself as most seem to think of when they hear the word angel. Yeshua is the Nagiyd-Brit Commander of the Covenant as well as the Nagiyd-Commander of the messengers; yet likewise he himself is the Chief Messenger who clearly states in many occasions that the Father has SENT him. And who is he whose countenance shines as the Sun?
Hello statikos toxin
(stirred by/through your very own claim to being the stick that is not straight)

To be pursuing the truth in righteousness indicates something is missing...hmmm, what could that be?
...as if your deluded mystical allusions, misinterpretation of parabolic symbolisms, and presumptuous mistranslating the Scripture were not clue enough that you too are P.P™--->[P.resumptuously P.reposterous and/or yet not excluding being just another one of a growing morass of P..halse P.rofit$].

No matter how the prefix arche (fr. archo) is used, the fact remains that a ruler is subject to the King (of Kings).
(Can you not see this?)

And why is the Daniel quote changed to "as the Sun" instead of "appearance of lightning"?
Perhaps it is because Yeshua INHERITED his names as stated previously herein.
We who know him know this name as Kyros-Kuros-Koresh (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?5812-Kyros-Kuros) or "LIKE THE SUN"
In addition it is YHWH who rescues his Son at Golgotha in Revelation 19.
Have I missed the bigger picture as you say? I trow not. :lol:
Olivet Zeytiym (http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/olivet-zeytiym.html)…could you please operate a bit differently than the Twig DavidiaM (who likes you being hir pet). See, that P.P.™ too extrapolates misunderstandings through a failure to either completely reason according to the text--(usually through logical errors), and the dollop sipporting such cherry picked and plopped atop whatever deliciois looking toxic concoction is ignoring the totality of scripture being the context...
...and the Timmy really wearies of the hook baiting, misguiding folks down whatever the deviant whynding twisted path of P.P.™.

Do you realize that your own assuming "the spiritual" could somehow be seperate from the physical is not only dualistic thinking, but helps you create your unreasonable delusional analogies (possessing no direct physical applicability)?
(4 gemerations of man?) :hysterical::rofl::lmbo:

...and all these imaginary musticisms you think are sooo spiritual, praytell what significance is it to living a godly life for you or anyone else, seidwhynder?

Ok since it is (according to what you claik) Yaweh in heaven rescuing the presence of Yaweh in the Earth, yet knowing this very salvation (whether from heaven or in the Earth) is Yaweh's alone, can you explain what you are trying to say?
(While you are at it, why don't you explain this in relation to Jn. 3.13 T.R...ok?)

You are probably clear already knowing you are a seducer...not unlike the neshach who deceived Isha; but the Timmy wishes everyone eose ro b just as clear concerning this.

Your friendly handler of pit vipers ever milking venom dry::sBo_reflection2:

Timmy

toxon

06-07-2014, 10:44 AM

Hello statikos toxin
(stirred by/through your very own claim to being the stick that is not straight)

To be pursuing the truth in righteousness indicates something is missing...hmmm, what could that be?
...as if your deluded mystical allusions, misinterpretation of parabolic symbolisms, and presumptuous mistranslating the Scripture were not clue enough that you too are P.P™--->[P.resumptuously P.reposterous and/or yet not excluding being just another one of a growing morass of P..halse P.rofit$].

No matter how the prefix arche (fr. archo) is used, the fact remains that a ruler is subject to the King (of Kings).
(Can you not see this?)

…could you please operate a bit differently than the Twig DavidiaM (who likes you being hir pet). See, that P.P.™ too extrapolates misunderstandings through a failure to either completely reason according to the text--(usually through logical errors), and the dollop sipporting such cherry picked and plopped atop whatever deliciois looking toxic concoction is ignoring the totality of scripture being the context...
...and the Timmy really wearies of the hook baiting, misguiding folks down whatever the deviant whynding twisted path of P.P.™.

Do you realize that your own assuming "the spiritual" could somehow be seperate from the physical is not only dualistic thinking, but helps you create your unreasonable delusional analogies (possessing no direct physical applicability)?
(4 gemerations of man?) :hysterical::rofl::lmbo:

...and all these imaginary musticisms you think are sooo spiritual, praytell what significance is it to living a godly life for you or anyone else, seidwhynder?

Ok since it is (according to what you claik) Yaweh in heaven rescuing the presence of Yaweh in the Earth, yet knowing this very salvation (whether from heaven or in the Earth) is Yaweh's alone, can you explain what you are trying to say?
(While you are at it, why don't you explain this in relation to Jn. 3.13 T.R...ok?)

You are probably clear already knowing you are a seducer...not unlike the neshach who deceived Isha; but the Timmy wishes everyone eose ro b just as clear concerning this.

Your friendly handler of pit vipers ever milking venom dry::sBo_reflection2:

Timmy

It is ironic how you claim that I am of a "Greek" or western mindset while you yourself are supposedly of a Hebrew-Aramaic eastern mindset when about ninety percent of what you write proves exactly the opposite to be the case. Have you never read about bows and their usage in the Scripture? The bowsting was made from flax which is the same thing white linens were made from. Even some of the DSS Scrolls are now shown to have been written on bleached linens. "And David lamented with this lamentation over Shaul and over Yonathan his son, (also he bade them teach the sons of Yhudah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of the Upright). The Tsebiy of Yisrael is slain upon thy high places! O how the mighty are fallen!" Likewise it is written: "As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. Turn you to the strong hold, you prisoners of hope: even today do I declare that I will render double unto thee; when I have bent Yhudah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. And YHWH shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and Adonai YHWH shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south."

As for the four generations of the one man you would need to do much more of your own homework to understand. As I said before you completely ignore what are apparent discrepancies in the text and pretend as if they do not exist. It is because of those like yourself that others come away with kooky ideas like third and fourth generational curses from the heavenly Father because of your lack of understanding of Scripture and lack of caring to find out the depth of the truth that is found in the Word. You must begin to make all of it work together or you are simply spinning your wheels while forcing yourself and your phony doctrine upon others through intimidation and strong-arm tactics.

Exodus 20:3-5 KJV
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:5-7 KJV
5. And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:7-9 KJV
7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deuteronomy 24:16
16. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:1-4 ~ 19-20 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? [Warning: "New Covenant" language from Yirmeyahu 31:29]
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You must make all of this and more fit together into one cohesive understanding which does not contradict itself because the Scripture cannot be broken and neither does it contradict itself. Therefore take up your own cross and apollumi-destroy your own soul for the sake of the Master Yeshua as he says in his doctrine: otherwise you cannot be his disciple. Part your own soul asunder for two parts within your land shall breathe his last and the third part shall be brought through the fire and refined. And when you come to the end of yourself then perhaps you will find that the only way all of the above can be true is if all four generations are the four generations of the one selfsame man like as the four seasons in the full span of a year which God the heavenly Father created for our learning: autumn, winter, spring, and summer. Therefore when your branch becomes tender, and begins to put forth his foliage; know that the summer of your harvest is near, even at the very doors. :lol:

toxon

06-12-2014, 09:33 PM

Hi toxon,

This post began as a comment on the following quote, but it has drifted on somewhat from there. No apologies for that except for its greater range.

I have found Timmy to have an astonishingly high pain threshold and to be able to stomach visual input which would do my brain no good whatever. So, when he does a little imitation of an ancient prophet's more extreme satire, it's just to make sure that the message is nice and clear, and no more offensive (in his mind) than those by any of the biblical characters who used similar tactics to make their statements unmissable. I have to say, as time goes by this procedure has been slowly metamorphosing. Into what? We shall see. :) When it comes to making sense, sometimes, you just have to run with the balls you can catch, and let the others fall to the ground for the time being.

The above is timmy-tomfoolery of the highest magnitude and a meaningless waste of time:
Not here to discuss the "high pain threshold" of the Timmy or his "metamorphosing techniques". :lol:

Going back to Messiah proceeding forth from the Father... Don't you see that we also are/were all with the Son, in the Father, before time?

The difference between us and Him is timing. All that were in Adam, died. So although Adam was modeled on the perfect Son, having come forth before Him, when Messiah came straight from the Father, He was still free of all Adam's sin and death. Yes?

The idea that we do not have a spirit of our own is very hard to support from scripture, particularly because we are told that the spirit of a man goes back to God when he dies - which is exactly what happened when the Messiah died, according to John and much scripture before John. Therefore, when the writer to the Hebrews says, 'shall we not rather be subject to the Father of spirits (plural) and live?' this is totally in keeping with what Paul said at the beginning of Ephesians 2, where he refers to 'the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience' (unbelief) - and we know that spirit is the devil.

' ... ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.'

Where have I ever said we do not have "a spirit" of our own?
Who exactly do you think he is that is the unclean spirit of the world?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...'[/COLOR]

How can Yeshua ask for this if He is only a man? I genuinely have no idea how you can hold to the idea that He is only a man.

From the thread "Shema Yisrael", Post #19, Page Two:

Actually Timmy while you are here perhaps you might begin establishing some of your self proclaimed wisdom by explaining the differences between "heis" and "hen" and why they are employed the way they are in certain contexts, (clue to the wise: some of the very rules you have been handed down from your teachers are your own stumbling blocks). I will open the post with a verse from the 1Timothy2 passage already referenced once in this thread:

1 Timothy 2:5 ASV
5. For there is one [GSN#1520 εἷς - "heis"] God, one [GSN#1520 εἷς - "heis"] mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

1 Timothy 2:5 Westcott-Hort
Εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς,
http://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/2-5.htm

Mark 12:29 ASV
29. Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one: [GSN#1520 εἷς - "heis"]

Mark 12:29 Westcott-Hort
ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι Πρώτη ἐστίν Ἄκουε, Ἰσραήλ, Κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστίν,
http://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-29.htm

John 10:30 ASV
30. I and the Father are one [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"].

John 10:30 Westcott-Hort
ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/10-30.htm

John 17:21-23 ASV
21. that they may all be one; [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"] even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.
22. And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"] even as we are one; [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"]
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; [GSN#1520 ἓν - "hen"] that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.

John 17:21-23 Westcott-Hort
ἵνα πάντες ἓν ὦσιν, καθὼς σύ, πατήρ, ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/17-21.htm
κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν,
http://biblehub.com/text/john/17-22.htm
ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ σὺ ἐν ἐμοί, ἵνα ὦσιν τετελειωμένοι εἰς ἕν, ἵνα γινώσκῃ ὁ κόσμος ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας καὶ ἠγάπησας αὐτοὺς καθὼς ἐμὲ ἠγάπησας.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/17-23.htm

There is 1 [heis] God and there is 1 [heis] mediator between God and men: the man Yeshua Messiah.
Otherwise every talmid can become a mediator between God and man if we are one [hen] with Messiah.
By watering down the meaning of heis you are watering down the authority of Messiah as the only Mediator.

Perhaps you can likewise answer for the Timmy on the above since he has not responded in the other thread. :)

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord,
Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

He was Lord before He came to earth, is what this prophecy is telling us. It is even saying that His Father would make His enemies His footstool. Where have we heard that before?

John 14:Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

There is also a huge discussion to be had about whose love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Is it God's love, as Paul says first, or is it Messiah's love? Is that the same love, or, is Messiah's limited somehow by His humanity? Why would Paul say that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, if the love of God was better and greater? Or, by the Holy Spirit, is it just one love? God is love. And what is the effect of God's love in our hearts, anyway? Surely God's love is the love He has for us (others) and if we have that love, we will 'love' beyond ourselves, just as He did?

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Interesting that we become filled with 'the fulness of God' by receiving the love of Christ, don't you think? I've never looked at these verses in the context of a discussion about the deity of Messiah, but they definitely raise some good questions.

By the way, I am not at all following the discussion about angels. Hebrews 1 and 2 makes exceptionally clear that Yeshua was not an angel when He was here, and that when He was born, the holy angels were commanded to worship Him. His role as a messenger of God before His incarnation is a completely different thing from Him being merely a ministering spirit - a flame of fire. And anyway... it sounds as if you don't believe He existed before He was born on earth, so you must have some other explanation for the 'Angel' which went with the Israelites, in whom Yahweh's name was residing.

Now, the things I was thinking about the Septuagint, are several. The first is, what was the purpose of translating it into Greek at all? Was it that Hebrews had become so removed from their natural roots, that they had lost the language and needed it to be brought into the common vernacular? Or, was it because the Hebrews who had control of the originals had become so worldly?

Perhaps you should follow the discussion about "angels" a little closer then? Did you know that 'Elohim is rendered as "angels" or "messengers" in Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5? What do you or the Timmy have to say about that or how do you explain it? Are there lesser classes of 'elohim that are messenger-angels or is it a mistake or an alteration in the Masoretic Text while the author is quoting from the Septuagint? If you or the Timmy do not even know about this then how is it that you think you are justified in judging one who has already investigated these things? And if you have no answer for why what I just stated is in fact the case, with 'elohim being rendered as "angelous" in Hebrews 2:7, then do you not think it would be wise to go find out how this might impact your doctrine before you start labeling someone else a heretic just because he does not believe what you believe? Perhaps you do not have the grasp on the first two chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews that you imagine? And what of the Prototokos-Firstborn found in Hebrews 1:6? Does it refer to Yisrael or Yeshua or both? And should "oikoumene" be understood as the "world" as widely translated or does it rather refer to the Land, (of Yisrael)? Or do you even think these things matter? Or have you ever even thought to ask such questions?

Hebrews 1:1-6
1. Elohim, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,
3. who being the radiant off-flash of the glory and character of the essence of him, bearing both all of the remati-spoken-words and the dunameos-power of him, a cleansing of sins having made, was seated at the right of the Majesty on high:
4. having become so much better than the messengers; for as much as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
5. For unto which of the messengers said he ever, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
6. Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael ~ Shemot-Exodus 4:22) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."

And every messenger sent to Yisrael after Moshe indeed writes and speaks of Messiah.
And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error? What will you do?
Will you continue blindly as you do even now after so many proofs already having been shown to you?

toxon

06-12-2014, 10:34 PM

And anyway... it sounds as if you don't believe He existed before He was born on earth, so you must have some other explanation for the 'Angel' which went with the Israelites, in whom Yahweh's name was residing.

This was already addressed in your own thread called "Self Sacrifice", (Mesiras Nephesh) but apparently you must have skipped over it or you would not say that I "must have some other explanation" for the passage. Yeshua explains it but will you believe his words this time around? Or do you still think the difference between "me" and "you" is not worth the hearing? Ya-know, ya-know, ya-know, that is indeed the very opening statement of the Shema: "HEAR, O YISRAEL!" And it is not myself but Yeshua who tells you that the messenger of that passage is Yochanan the Immerser:

Yes, and the Word speaks expressly the following as I tried to say as plainly as could be said. But the war is on for the minds of each and every one of us because the mind is generally not ready or willing to relinquish what has already long been programmed into it. Therefore we must be careful to read exactly what is written and cut off the former things which we have received from men so as to hear what the Scripture actually states to be the Truth. This is likewise true in this case which was why I took the opportunity when I saw it arise because it brings about a good example of how we have all been indoctrinated through the teachings of so-called scholars, church fathers, commentaries, and teachings of men. Not that this is meant to be at your expense but simply to make the point because there is not a single place anywhere that I know of where you will find anyone else to show you what I say here. Where have you ever seen what follows in any of the commentaries of men? Search high and low and you will not find this anywhere that I know of yet it is plain as day if you pay close attention. The whole point is that all of the men of stature, all of the men of renown, all of the well respected commentators who have written commentaries concerning the following are in error: at least every one of them I have ever read.

Exodus 23:20 Septuagint
20 Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.

Matthew 11:10 Westcott and Hort 1881
10 οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

Malachi 3:1 Septuagint
ΙΔΟΥ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

These two statements are identical:

Exodus 23:20a Septuagint ~ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

Matthew 11:10b W/H 1881 ~ Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

The statement from Mal'akiy 3:1a-b is not the same:

Malachi 3:1a-b Septuagint ~
ΙΔΟΥ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου,

Here it is in English:

Exodus 23:20 KJV
20. Behold, I send an [Septuagint reads "μου" ~ "mine"] Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him.
22. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if it was lifted straight from the Septuagint.
And "THEE-THINE" [σου] and "ME-MINE" [μου] are NOT the same no matter what the language! :)

However Malakiy 3:1 includes also the Malak-Brit Messenger of the Covenant.
Therefore the Malak of Exodus 23 is not Miyka'el but rather Yochanan mashiyach Eliyahu, (Gabriy'el).
Gabriy'el is he that stands in the Presence of the Most High as he states in 1 Kings 17:1 and Luke 1:19.
Eliyahu is the Spirit of the Prophets up to Yochanan the Immerser with the mashiyach-anointing of Eliyahu.

Miyka'el Nagiyd Brit informs us of this when he quotes Shemot-Exodus 23 in Mattityahu 11:10. :winking0071:

The same Spirit that YHWH placed upon Moshe was likewise upon Yochanan.
Moshe prophesied of both mashiyach Yochanan Eliyahu and Yeshua Mowshiya` . . . :yes:

Timmy

06-13-2014, 07:22 AM

The same Spirit that YHWH placed upon Moshe was likewise upon Yochanan.
Moshe prophesied of both mashiyach Yochanan Eliyahu and Yeshua Mowshiya` . . . :yes:
Toxin,

Lock onto those your last words qouted above, before you proclaimed yourself pulverized in one final hebrew word.

The spirit given Moshe is the spirit of/from the Christ says Kefa.

Yet this is the spirit of/from Yaweh.

You have persisted hanging yourself with your own words without realizing it.

As for the use of one or the other word for one in Koiné???
...neither of them are equivalent to the Hebrew words they are meant to be synonymous with.
So what do you do?
You blow the reality off for one of your own delusions
based on this very misunderstanding,
then run with that instead.

You have continued using (predominantly) Roman Catholic and/or that which has been extremely influenced in the Græco-Romanized mindset as your proof sources, such as: Westcott and Hort, Strong's, and the LXX.

These may (or may not) be fine as secondary sources, so long as they do not contradict the actual meaning; however, you tend to use them to do just this, you heretic.

...and calling you a heretic promoting your own heresies (which are nothing new under the sun), have little to do with it being because of what Timmy thinks about the doctrines of/from devils you claim to be yours as well. The Biblical record, as well as relative world history undeniably categorically places both of you--(statikos toxin, and the Tweedle Dum Twig DavidiaM)--as being heretics. Your words are lies against the truth and you both are liars.
:prophet:
Neither of you see that what you say creates conflict and division not only with others, but in your own consciousness.
You shall never get any further than your falsehoods.
Rather, Elohim sends you stronger delusions to insure your damnation.
Instead of examining yourselves, you mock what you do not understand.
Why?
You both lie against The Truth, and love these lies instead.

When the text proving Yeshua/Yaweh is always Forever I Am comes complete to present, you shall be shown for the fools you two really are...and will probably still deny the truth with more multitudes of words proving to everyone else reading, just how stupid impetuous arrogant blasphemy can really portray itself, given ample leash.

We own your base, and the dakk@ is already yours though you will prolly never be capable enough to even admit, much less confess this fact...which brings into question how many hat sizes too small is anything to fit on such huge heads???

...and remember, he who laughs first...cries in the end...yada yada yada...

The Timmy

toxon

06-13-2014, 04:00 PM

Toxin,

Lock onto those your last words qouted above, before you proclaimed yourself pulverized in one final hebrew word.

The spirit given Moshe is the spirit of/from the Christ says Kefa.

Yet this is the spirit of/from Yaweh.

You have persisted hanging yourself with your own words without realizing it.

As for the use of one or the other word for one in Koiné???
...neither of them are equivalent to the Hebrew words they are meant to be synonymous with.
So what do you do?
You blow the reality off for one of your own delusions
based on this very misunderstanding,
then run with that instead.

You have continued using (predominantly) Roman Catholic and/or that which has been extremely influenced in the Græco-Romanized mindset as your proof sources, such as: Westcott and Hort, Strong's, and the LXX.

These may (or may not) be fine as secondary sources, so long as they do not contradict the actual meaning; however, you tend to use them to do just this, you heretic.

...and calling you a heretic promoting your own heresies (which are nothing new under the sun), have little to do with it being because of what Timmy thinks about the doctrines of/from devils you claim to be yours as well. The Biblical record, as well as relative world history undeniably categorically places both of you--(statikos toxin, and the Tweedle Dum Twig DavidiaM)--as being heretics. Your words are lies against the truth and you both are liars.
:prophet:
Neither of you see that what you say creates conflict and division not only with others, but in your own consciousness.
You shall never get any further than your falsehoods.
Rather, Elohim sends you stronger delusions to insure your damnation.
Instead of examining yourselves, you mock what you do not understand.
Why?
You both lie against The Truth, and love these lies instead.

When the text proving Yeshua/Yaweh is always Forever I Am comes complete to present, you shall be shown for the fools you two really are...and will probably still deny the truth with more multitudes of words proving to everyone else reading, just how stupid impetuous arrogant blasphemy can really portray itself, given ample leash.

We own your base, and the dakk@ is already yours though you will prolly never be capable enough to even admit, much less confess this fact...which brings into question how many hat sizes too small is anything to fit on such huge heads???

...and remember, he who laughs first...cries in the end...yada yada yada...

The Timmy

My Father saves those of a crushed heart, (Psalm 34:18, Psalm 90:3, Isaiah 57:15) and everyone having read what has transpired between you and I knows that you do not know me from Adam. Neither do you know my Father or you would not be accusing me of holding the doctrines of devils. That is indeed blasphemy ya-know, ya-know, ya-know? When you state so emphatically that I hold the doctrines of devils you are saying that the Master of my house is Beelzebub. The talmid is not above his master, nor the servant above his ruler. It is enough for the talmid that he be as his master; and the servant as his ruler. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? So when they said that the works of Yeshua were done by the power of Beelzebub they were calling his Father the ruler of devils and blaspheming the Spirit Holy just as you likewise do now because the heavenly Father is the ultimate-absolute Ruler and Master of my little house.

As for he who laughs, ridicules, and mocks first it was not me but you. Anyone having been reading the discourse between you and I knows that I asked of you two simple questions in my very first words to you and presented them as politely as I knew how to do. So who is he that mocked, ridiculed, and took the first swipe at his brother? It was not me but clearly you because you had no answers for my two simple little questions, just as you continue to have no answers for anything else put to you, just as it is clearly shown here again in this thread. So you made the judgment immediately after my first words to you that I was not your brother and therefore open season for you and your old time prophet styled character assassination "techniques", (as your comrade in arms said previously above herein). The only things I have found you to have in your "arsenal" are accusations and put-downs designed for one thing only and that is character assassination. Again, for the third time, these were my first words to you from the Mesiras Nephesh thread:

Hi Charisma,
Since you are free to answer for the Timmy as one I hope you do not mind a response to you two as one. :)

Again, these are my first words to Timmy:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Timmy http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63094#post63094)
"My body has been changed several times because i believe in Jesus being God come in the form of a man, and worshipping Him as He is Yaweh."

Hi Timmy, how do you understand the following statement from Isaiah? :)

Isaiah 63:15-19 Restored Name KJV (http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa63.htm)
63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

And how do you explain the obvious discrepancies such as the following?

John 14:27-31 KJV
27. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

This is the high minded mud slinging response of "the Timmy" whom you as one agreed with:

You might have already bitten off more than you can chew, as i have placed the scandalon against what you and David seem to miss completely already about this site. You may be better off reading much of what is on record here by the Timmy before getting confrontive. There is also much that has been left unsaid for people who wish to take the bait...and you already appear to be attempting to swallow it whole.

What discrepancies?

It may also be suggested you might pay better attention to detail, and do not fail to account for corroboration with other associated texts.

So, please point out these discrepancies you say are so obvious. Might it be added(?) that whatever you are referring to, they might seem like discrepancies to you because you and i do not walk in the same paradigm?(So state what your perceptual basis is behind the claim to that you are assuming to be such "obvious discrepancies"?

If it is about the difference of Peace and Grace compared with Judgment, these are only two sides to one coin...kind of like you thinking Romans 5.14 breaks down becausebof the sin of Adamah??? It does not.
[sub]The Hebrew word for blessing is the exact same word for cursing, for one example.
(You misunderstand doing and results for individual being. This convolutes your understanding what this and the rest of Romans 5 relates.)[/b]

I do not really have all that much time to doddle here presently, but i will get back to you when ameniable. (A deadline must be met by next week Monday (but an IPO may open for a stint NTL), and most everything is going to have to play second fiddle, and the web gets third place, so until whenever then comes, so you can give yourself until at least Sunday night before spouting off some more...and please consider what you are told in direct relation to Scripture provided.

Timmy

At this point "the Timmy" does not know me from Adam and those are the first words spoken between us. If the two of you as one cannot handle mud on your faces then perhaps you should not be slinging mud at people whom you have never met or spoken to before this time. It really is common sense, common decency, and common courtesy, something the two of you as one have proven you do not have. No matter how much you claim to know Yeshua or have the Holy Spirit you do not know him or the Father if you think that this is the proper way to treat people who disagree with your theology, (and this post from "the Timmy" was mild in comparison to his more typically vile rantings which you also have been clearly in agreement with). Sorry but I have no tolerance for people with murder in their hearts claiming to be "christians" and giving the Master a bad name. It is because of you and your hedonistic genos-kind that the whole world lies in wickedness. :)

And now you still have no legitimate response for anything that has been said in this thread so you revert to the only thing you know to do, which is murder-death-kill, and your own vile words will come back down upon your own mortally wounded head, (be sure that your sins will come back from the dry-arid places and find you out). All of your vile spewing is simply more evidence of your opening the mouth of the well of the abyss with your own keys, which all of us are given: yet it is only your own sun and your own air which are filled with thick black smoke like the smoke of the great furnace of Egypt. Yea, when the Timmy opens his mouth the sun and the air about him are darkened with thick black smoke; and from the smoke come forth the legions of the locusts of his false doctrines. :lol:

Dear Charisma,
Perhaps it is indeed better for you to answer for the Timmy! :D
As everyone may clearly see he only serves to help subvert your foundations. :lol:

toxon

06-14-2014, 01:42 AM

Where have you gone David M? I address this post to you since it appears that Charisma is not around and of course the Timmy cares nothing for these things as he clearly accuses me of being a liar in his most recent post herein. So how can I be sure of my understanding of Hebrews 1:6 as posted above? How do I know for a fact that what I posted is the truth? Did I have the Holy Spirit whisper it in my ear and give me tingly feelings all over my body and psyche like Charisma and Timmy say they get when something is revealed to them? That may be the case sometimes but it is only after the Truth has been discovered in the written Word.

And what of the Prototokos-Firstborn found in Hebrews 1:6? Does it refer to Yisrael or Yeshua or both? And should "oikoumene" be understood as the "world" as widely translated or does it rather refer to the Land, (of Yisrael)? Or do you even think these things matter? Or have you ever even thought to ask such questions?

Hebrews 1:1-6
1. Elohim, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,
3. who being the radiant off-flash of the glory and character of the essence of him, bearing both all of the remati-spoken-words and the dunameos-power of him, a cleansing of sins having made, was seated at the right of the Majesty on high:
4. having become so much better than the messengers; for as much as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
5. For unto which of the messengers said he ever, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
6. Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael ~ Shemot-Exodus 4:22) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."

And every messenger sent to Yisrael after Moshe indeed writes and speaks of Messiah.
And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error?

In fact EVERY English translation of Hebrews 1:6 is indeed full of error. Neither are there any commentaries which adequately understand the passage. Some translations even go so far as to translate "oikoumenen" as "the universe", (saying when God brought his first begotten "into the universe"). Most so-called scholars and their fancy commentaries cannot even agree on why the word "palin" (anew-again) is employed in the text with some of them even suggesting that this passage speaks of the second advent of Messiah instead of the first. Please pay close attention here David as this is not a "yada, yada, yada" post. Don't know if there is a word count limit on replies but I suppose I will find out here and now. :)

Exodus 4:22 Restored Name KJV (Masoretic Text)
4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/ex4.htm

Exodus 4:22 Brenton Septuagint Translation
22. And thou shalt say to Pharao, These things saith the Lord, Israel is my first-born.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/4.htm

Exodus 4:22 Septuagint
4:22 συ δε ερεις τω φαραω ταδε λεγει κυριος υιος πρωτοτοκος μου ισραηλ
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/02_004.htm

Exodus 4:22 Septuagint Literal Rendering
22. Moreover you shall say unto Pharaoh: Thus says [YHWH] Kurios, [the] υιος-huios-son πρωτοτοκος-prototokos-firstborn μου-of me [is] ισραηλ-Yisrael.

Hebrews 1:6 Westcott-Hort 1881
1:6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν οἰκουμένην, λέγει Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ.
http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-6.htm

Hebrews 1:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
6. Hotan de palin eisagage ton prototokon eis ten oikoumenen, legei, "Kai proskunesatosan auto pantes angeloi Theou."

Hebrews 1:6 Vertical Strong's Numbers with Short Definitions
6.
|3752| hotan - when
|1161| de - and/but/moreover
|3825| palin - anew, (by repetition) - again
|1521| eisago - to lead - [eisagage] - he brings
|3588| ho - definite article - [ton] - the
|4416| prototokos - firstborn - [prototokon] - firstborn
|1519| eis - to/for/in/into
|3588| ho - definite article - [ten] - the
|3625| oikoumene - habitable land -or- habitable world - [oikoumenen] - land
|3004| lego - to say - [legei] - He says,
|2532| kai - and
|4352| proskuneo - to bow - do obeisance - [proskunesatosan] - let bow unto
|0846| autos - he/she/they/them - [auto] - him
|3956| pas - all - [pantes] - all of the
|0032| aggelos - messenger/angel/prophet/preacher - [angeloi] - messengers
|2316| Theos - [Theou] - 'Elohim - God

The translators have basically two choices when it comes to the meaning of oikoumene. I only quote the Original Strong's Definition here because it is short and there is no need to post all of the inflections and tenses just to understand the meaning of the word, (which I often do and "the Timmy" likes to use to misrepresent me because he misunderstands or ignores this fact). In fact the first implied meaning is not "world", (as in kosmos) but rather LAND as an habitable land, territory, or empire.

Original Strong's Ref. #3625
Romanized oikoumene
Pronounced oy-kou-men'-ay
feminine participle present passive of GSN3611 (as noun, by implication of GSN1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically, the Roman empire:
KJV--earth, world.

So how do I know my understanding of Hebrews 1:6 is the correct one? Do not let all of the fancy Greek and definitions take away from the fact that these things, just as most everything Scripture, come directly from the text and its surrounding context. The quote from Hebrews 1:6 just so happens to have been left out of the Masoretic Text but is plain as day in the Septuagint. It is found in the same passage that I quoted three or four times in the other thread, Mesiras Nephesh, which passage was quoted to the various nonbelievers in that thread, (if they are going to call me a nonbeliever and a liar then do I not have the right to prove them wrong? and if they are wrong then who is in fact the nonbeliever?). So we read it from the English translation of the Septuagint and hopefully from this simple straightforward reading the true meaning of what Hebrews 1:6 states will become clear as daylight.

YESHUA IS THE RIGHT HAND OF ELOHIM:

Deuteronomy 32 Brenton Septuagint
1. Attend, O heaven, and I will speak; and let the earth hear the words out of my mouth.
2. Let my speech be looked for as the rain, and my words come down as dew, as the shower upon the herbage, and as snow upon the grass.
3. For I have called on the name of the Lord: assign ye greatness to our God.
4. As for God, his works are true, and all his ways are judgment: God is faithful, and there is no unrighteousness in him; just and holy is the Lord.
5. They have sinned, not pleasing him; spotted children, a froward and perverse generation.
6. Do ye thus recompense the Lord? is the people thus foolish and unwise? did not he himself thy father purchase thee, and make thee, and form thee?
7. Remember the days of old, consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee.
8. When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.
9. And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.
10. He maintained him in the wilderness, in burning thirst and a dry land: he led him about and instructed him, and kept him as the apple of an eye.
11. As an eagle would watch over his brood, and yearns over his young, receives them having spread his wings, and takes them up on his back:
12. the Lord alone led them, there was no strange god with them.
13. He brought them up on the strength of the land; he fed them with the fruits of the fields; they sucked honey out of the rock, and oil out of the solid rock.
14. Butter of cows, and milk of sheep, with the fat of lambs and rams, of calves and kids, with fat of kidneys of wheat; and he drank wine, the blood of the grape.
15. So Jacob ate and was filled, and the beloved one kicked; he grew fat, he became thick and broad: then he forsook the God that made him, and departed from God his Saviour.
16. They provoked me to anger with strange gods; with their abominations they bitterly angered me.
17. They sacrificed to devils, and not to God; to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not.
18. Thou hast forsaken God that begot thee, and forgotten God who feeds thee.
19. And the Lord saw, and was jealous; and was provoked by the anger of his sons and daughters,
20. and said, I will turn away my face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith.
21. They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.
22. For a fire has been kindled out of my wrath, it shall burn to hell below; it shall devour the land, and the fruits of it; it shall set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23. I will gather evils upon them, and will fight with my weapons against them.
24. They shall be consumed with hunger and the devouring of birds, and there shall be irremediable destruction: I will send forth against them the teeth of wild beasts, with the rage of serpents creeping on the ground.
25. Without, the sword shall bereave them of children, and terror shall issue out of the secret chambers; the young man shall perish with the virgin, the suckling with him who has grown old.
26. I said, I will scatter them, and I will cause their memorial to cease from among men.
27. Were it not for the wrath of the enemy, lest they should live long, lest their enemies should combine against them; lest they should say, Our own high arm, and not the Lord, has done all these things.
28. It is a nation that has lost counsel, neither is there understanding in them.
29. They had not sense to understand: let them reserve these things against the time to come.
30. How should one pursue a thousand, and two rout tens of thousands, if God had not sold them, and the Lord delivered them up?
31. For their gods are not as our God, but our enemies are void of understanding.
32. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and their vine-branch of Gomorrha: their grape is a grape of gall, their cluster is one of bitterness.
33. Their wine is the rage of serpents, and the incurable rage of asps.
34. Lo! are not these things stored up by me, and sealed among my treasures?
35. In the day of vengeance I will recompense, whensoever their foot shall be tripped up; for the day of their destruction is near to them, and the judgments at hand are close upon you.
36. For the Lord shall judge his people, and shall be comforted over his servants; for he saw that they were utterly weakened, and failed in the hostile invasion, and were become feeble:
37. and the Lord said, Where are their gods on whom they trusted?
38. the fat of whose sacrifices ye ate, and ye drank the wine of their drink-offerings? let them arise and help you, and be your protectors.
39. Behold, behold that I am he, and there is no god beside me: I kill, and I will make to live: I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who shall deliver out of my hands.
40. For I will lift up my hand to heaven, and swear by my right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
41. For I will sharpen my sword like lightning, and my hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to my enemies, and will recompense them that hate me.
42. I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the heads of their enemies that rule over them.
43. Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge [atone] the land of his people.
43. εὐφράνθητε, οὐρανοί, ἅμα αὐτῷ, καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ· εὐφράνθητε, ἔθνη μετὰ τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐνισχυσάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες υἱοὶ Θεοῦ· ὅτι τὸ αἷμα τῶν υἱῶν αὐτοῦ ἐκδικᾶται, καὶ ἐκδικήσει καὶ ἀνταποδώσει δίκην τοῖς ἐχθροῖς καὶ τοῖς μισοῦσιν ἀνταποδώσει, καὶ ἐκκαθαριεῖ Κύριος τὴν γῆν τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτοῦ.
44. And Moses wrote this song in that day, and taught it to the children of Israel; and Moses went in and spoke all the words of this law in the ears of the people, he and Joshua the son of Naue.
45. And Moses finished speaking to all Israel.
46. And he said to them, Take heed with your heart to all these words, which I testify to you this day, which ye shall command your sons, to observe and do all the words of this law.
47. For this is no vain word to you; for it is your life, and because of this word ye shall live long upon the land, into which ye go over Jordan to inherit it.
48. And the Lord spoke to Moses in this day, saying,
49. Go up to the mount Abarim, this mountain Nabau which is in the land of Moab over against Jericho, and behold the land of Chanaan, which I give to the sons of Israel:
50. and die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be added to thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Or, and was added to his people.
51. Because ye disobeyed my word among the children of Israel, at the waters of strife of Cades in the wilderness of Sin; because ye sanctified me not among the sons of Israel.
52. Thou shalt see the land before thee, but thou shalt not enter into it.
http://biblehub.com/sep/deuteronomy/32.htm

This is the day wherein YHWH begins to reveal that his Son is his right hand, his right arm, his suffering servant who is to come: whom he will lift up and exalt at Golgotha, and swear that He, YHWH the Father, lives forever. Yeshua is likewise the Sword of YHWH; he is the right arm or "shoulder", (which is the best portion of the sacrificial offerings) he is the right hand, (which is why he sat down at the right hand of Elohim after he was resurrected) and he is all the supernal and spiritual "weapons of war" of YHWH the Father, (nothing conquers love). This is also the day wherein Moshe was commanded to go up into mount Nebo of the Abarim-crossings and die. Therefore it is the fortieth year of the wilderness sojourn of the children of Yisrael. After mourning the death of Moshe they would indeed be lead-brought back-anew-again into the LAND. That is why "palin" is found in Hebrews 1:6 because Yisrael is the prototokos-firstborn and it was at this time that the sojourn in Egypt and then the forty years in the desert were over. They we about to be brought anew-again into the home-Land of Yisrael.

Hebrews 1:6b
Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ

Deuteronomy 32:43b
καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ

Hebrews 1:6 ~ Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."

Every single English translation is corrupted with the doctrines of carnal men. If they had a fifty-fifty chance and still guessed wrong despite the known quote coming word for word directly from the Septuagint, (which most already outright reject simply because of their dogma) then certainly none of them were/are lead by the Holy Spirit of our heavenly Father. Likewise for the Timmy, who proudly boasts once again that he "owns our base", he owns nothing and even what little he has is being taken from him as we speak, (but not by me or because of me).

Enjoy, David M, and Shalom-Peace in Yeshua the Kohen Gadol and right hand of the Father YHWH!

:winking0071:

David M

06-14-2014, 04:11 AM

Where have you gone David M?
I have been away from home for 10 days. I managed to get internet access occasionally. I guessed you did not see my reply to Charisma in the other thread where this was known. Anyway, I have much to catch up on now that I am home including your posts to Timmy and Charisma. I have to read your post later. I logged on briefly and noticed your question in the top spot in the sidebar.
I will see what replies I need to respond to a little later. As for now, I have no idea how much there is to catch up on. Like you, I ended my contributions to the other thread, since it had run its course.

David

toxon

06-14-2014, 04:37 AM

...and calling you a heretic promoting your own heresies (which are nothing new under the sun), have little to do with it being because of what Timmy thinks about the doctrines of/from devils you claim to be yours as well. The Biblical record, as well as relative world history undeniably categorically places both of you--(statikos toxin, and the Tweedle Dum Twig DavidiaM)--as being heretics. Your words are lies against the truth and you both are liars.
:prophet:

:prophet: Once upon the twinkling of a twilight there is an oasis by the desert having been called Amphodon. One day the Great King, (who owns all of the Land thereof) passes by so as to inspect his garden oasis in the desert. As he approaches the oasis he finds two poor beggars having wandered in from the desert; neither of which have yet the strength left in him to make it so far as the fountain of the water of life which flows in the midst thereof. And having collapsed they two lay there by the wayside, at the gate of Amphodon, parched from the scorching desert sun, and dying off slowly. And when King Egoeimiho-On sees them by the way dying he rushes near and says to them: I AM LIFE, and every part of me LIVES. I will tell you what I will do: I will cut off mine arm and give it you for food; eat all of it this night, leave nothing till the morning come! But know that in my right arm is also LIFE although I cut him off for you. He will sleep until about this time tomorrow at twilight and then he will awaken again to LIFE ETERNAL. If you indeed eat all of him then you too will LIVE because he LIVES. Do as I say and LIVE! So the Great King Egoeimiho-On cuts off his own right arm and gives it them for to completely consume; and commands them to eat all of it, leaving nothing till the morning come, and goes up from they two. Now of the two dying beggars one was foolish and the other was wise, and they two began to eat: and the first taste thereof is like wafers made with honey, as sweet as honey to the mouth, and they two immediately begin to revive upon the very first morsel. But on the second taste a bitterness begins to enter into the belly of they two. So the one foolish beggar says to his fellow: My belly is full enough already and I feel so full of life; I need not eat more, and will now go off to drink from the water fountain. But I will tell you what I am going to do with my portion of this mighty Arm: what remains I will stand upon a stake and this will be my God because truly has it saved me! And if it comes to life tomorrow then I will surely know it is my God; and so shall I worship him forever. But the one wise beggar likewise himself drinks from the Fountain of Life, in secret, doing all that the Great King commands him to do: eating all of his portion of the arm that night, leaving nothing till the morning come; and the next day he falls on asleep and rests. And when the next evening comes, at twilight, the Great King -TheOn- calls for his mighty Arm to return back to himself, (and it never returns to him void) but the foolish beggar is in the midst of worshiping the mighty Arm when it bursts into a flaming fire, completely consumes, and the smoke thereof rises up into heaven like the sweet smelling savour of a holy sacrifice unto the Most High God. So the foolish beggar runs quickly to awaken his fellow so as to tell him what has happened with the holy Arm but his friend is likewise nowhere to be found. No one on earth is really quite sure what happens to the wise son but the foolish and double blind beggar BarTimaeus son of Timaeus starts his own new religion and yada, yada, yada, the podiums, pedestals, and steeples of his sheeples are now strewn across the land in every brothel of every harlot city.

http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/emoticon-giggling.gif

I have been away from home for 10 days. I managed to get internet access occasionally. I guessed you did not see my reply to Charisma in the other thread where this was known. Anyway, I have much to catch up on now that I am home including your posts to Timmy and Charisma. I have to read your post later. I logged on briefly and noticed your question in the top spot in the sidebar.
I will see what replies I need to respond to a little later. As for now, I have no idea how much there is to catch up on. Like you, I ended my contributions to the other thread, since it had run its course.

David

:thumb: . . . no hurries, no worries, take your time . . . :yo:

Timmy

06-14-2014, 12:25 PM

My Father saves those of a crushed heart, (Psalm 34:18, Psalm 90:3, Isaiah 57:15) and everyone having read what has transpired between you and I knows that you do not know me from Adam. Neither do you know my Father or you would not be accusing me of holding the doctrines of devils. That is indeed blasphemy ya-know, ya-know, ya-know? When you state so emphatically that I hold the doctrines of devils you are saying that the Master of my house is Beelzebub. The talmid is not above his master, nor the servant above his ruler. It is enough for the talmid that he be as his master; and the servant as his ruler. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? So when they said that the works of Yeshua were done by the power of Beelzebub they were calling his Father the ruler of devils and blaspheming the Spirit Holy just as you likewise do now because the heavenly Father is the ultimate-absolute Ruler and Master of my little house.You wantedan answer to a question
you were not rilly specific about,
expecting allusion to speak for you?

Granted, i was not trying hard to see what you were saying
because you were not trying to clarify your thoughts and intents...

...having at that point not read all the previous things you wrote,
Timmy saw a disconnect,
in that at times you literalize what are Hebraisms,
and at other times fail to keep consistent (if and) when you do recognize them...
...yet seeing you have a bit of learning concerning the Hebrew ways,
the Timmy pushed your buttons to see how far that goes
...and you got all in a dither.

So, me thinks that the statikos warped-stick (aka: toxon) is definitely not Israeli by birth;
because our lineage does talk with one another
--even at times extremely gruff with far more extreme word-play than either you or Dawid have seen--
and remain close in philos and agapeo.

(We do not consider our reasoning or unreasoning to seperate us as the goyim do,
yet this is what you do;
and rather than seeking to clarify yourself
you mystify about yourself and others
so much the more.
(That is just plain old stupid.)

Ok, toxon, let's see what you do with this:

You seem to easily enough have a bit of know about name bar/ben/beni name, so how could this not be true of abba/avi/avinu as well?
The above is your one answer somewhat encompassing both questions. Tell me what you think about this and why. The when there is time here, Timy can address you more fully.

...but also note now, the why behind my own words saying that "...i see no discrepancies..."/COLOR], as well as the reason it was assumed you were wanting commentary concerning the situation, and not the one word specific Hebraism: father.

As for he who laughs, ridicules, and mocks first it was not me but you. Oh really? What is a failure to communicate clearly, if not a looking down on others who do not know you, yet thinking that not speaking clearly will only prove to you how exo/esoteric you think you are?

Anyone having been reading the discourse between you and I knows that I asked of you two simple questions in my very first words to you and presented them as politely as I knew how to do. So who is he that mocked, ridiculed, and took the first swipe at his brother?Is that what younthink of your own P.P.™ as well, or does that through your own wise eyes only apply to others?

Man, you do need a course in HR! You come off as some authority and prove yourself otherwise. You do not speak plainly and then have the audacity to assume it is everyone else who ks ignorant?

As previously stated, you really need to get a grip on what communication is actually all about.

Furthermore, Yeshua is the life breath revelation of all mysterion. Yet, the way you present yourself in this Acropolis, you deliberately make others outsiders with your half-baked understanding declaring what you think you know as though it were the ultimatum...and even that takes a side seat to your blathering on with words you think you know and assuming others don't.

GET A GRIP ON YOURSELF. DO YOU ACTUALLY SURMISE YOURSELF WISER BECAUSE YOU FAIL RO CLEARLY COMMUNICATE?

It was not me but clearly you because you had no answers for my two simple little questions, just as you continue to have no answers for anything else put to you, just as it is clearly shown here again in this thread. So you made the judgment immediately after my first words to you that I was not your brother and therefore open season for you and your old time prophet styled character assassination "techniques", (as your comrade in arms said previously above herein). The only things I have found you to have in your "arsenal" are accusations and put-downs designed for one thing only and that is character assassination. Again, for the third time, these were my first words to you from the Mesiras Nephesh thread: If you mistake certain discretion and discernment applied toward your apalling lack of clarity as judgement against you, you have issues other than what any forum can helpyou with. Character assasination? or is it just making more extreme what little you have misrepresented about yourself and the Scriptures?
...and you have yet to respond to how the spirit of Yeshua (the Christ) is the same spirit as Yaweh, toxin!

And now you still have no legitimate response for anything that has been said in this thread so you revert to the only thing you know to do, which is murder-death-kill, and your own vile words will come back down upon your own mortally wounded head, (be sure that your sins will come back from the dry-arid places and find you out). All of your vile spewing is simply more evidence of your opening the mouth of the well of the abyss with your own keys, which all of us are given: yet it is only your own sun and your own air which are filled with thick black smoke like the smoke of the great furnace of Egypt. Yea, when the Timmy opens his mouth the sun and the air about him are darkened with thick black smoke; and from the smoke come forth the legions of the locusts of his false doctrines. :lol:The only one speaking murder and killing is you; but death is another story.

Yaweh Yeshua has, save for the scars atop it, has completely healed this head...whereas others going through simular such experiences areneither institutionalization cases or vegetables...PRAISE YAH!

I have the privilige of praying and all prayers being answered, and that is that. I do not have to seek for truth in righteousness because He and i are not just in touch.

i walk in the forever life-for-life/blood-for-blood Beriyth in Him, of Him, by Him, and for Him: Yaweh Yeshua Eloheinu.

Something is going to be repeated to you that has been repeated to the Twig DaviaM:

If you are out for war or blood, you picked the wrong person to spar with.

This is not about winning.

Rather, if i or you never existed, what does the Bible clearly reveal irregardless of what supposed hidden meanings anyone contrives.

You need get out of that head that what you think you know is never enough...and if you cannot [COLOR="#FF0000"]rightly apply whatever you claim in the here and now: IN REAL LIFE IS with God verifying His approval via results and further freely given knowledge and wisdom andnunderstandings (without having to search and study), it is merely a mental gymnastics and not the TRUTH FOR LIFE being the hidden treasure only experienced by any who remain in Christ Jesus.

Timmy

p.s. i never said anything about any woo woo feeling or sensations verifying anything because they definitely never do.

toxon

06-14-2014, 05:14 PM

You wantedan answer to a question
you were not rilly specific about,
expecting allusion to speak for you?

Granted, i was not trying hard to see what you were saying
because you were not trying to clarify your thoughts and intents...

...having at that point not read all the previous things you wrote,
Timmy saw a disconnect,
in that at times you literalize what are Hebraisms,
and at other times fail to keep consistent (if and) when you do recognize them...
...yet seeing you have a bit of learning concerning the Hebrew ways,
the Timmy pushed your buttons to see how far that goes
...and you got all in a dither.

So, me thinks that the statikos warped-stick (aka: toxon) is definitely not Israeli by birth;
because our lineage does talk with one another
--even at times extremely gruff with far more extreme word-play than either you or Dawid have seen--
and remain close in philos and agapeo.

(We do not consider our reasoning or unreasoning to seperate us as the goyim do,
yet this is what you do;
and rather than seeking to clarify yourself
you mystify about yourself and others
so much the more.
(That is just plain old stupid.)

Ok, toxon, let's see what you do with this:

You seem to easily enough have a bit of know about name bar/ben/beni name, so how could this not be true of abba/avi/avinu as well?
The above is your one answer somewhat encompassing both questions. Tell me what you think about this and why. The when there is time here, Timy can address you more fully.

...but also note now, the why behind my own words saying that "...i see no discrepancies..."/COLOR], as well as the reason it was assumed you were wanting commentary concerning the situation, and not the one word specific Hebraism: father.

Oh really? What is a failure to communicate clearly, if not a looking down on others who do not know you, yet thinking that not speaking clearly will only prove to you how exo/esoteric you think you are?

Is that what younthink of your own P.P.™ as well, or does that through your own wise eyes only apply to others?

Man, you do need a course in HR! You come off as some authority and prove yourself otherwise. You do not speak plainly and then have the audacity to assume it is everyone else who ks ignorant?

As previously stated, you really need to get a grip on what communication is actually all about.

Furthermore, Yeshua is the life breath revelation of all mysterion. Yet, the way you present yourself in this Acropolis, you deliberately make others outsiders with your half-baked understanding declaring what you think you know as though it were the ultimatum...and even that takes a side seat to your blathering on with words you think you know and assuming others don't.

GET A GRIP ON YOURSELF. DO YOU ACTUALLY SURMISE YOURSELF WISER BECAUSE YOU FAIL RO CLEARLY COMMUNICATE?

If you mistake certain discretion and discernment applied toward your apalling lack of clarity as judgement against you, you have issues other than what any forum can helpyou with. Character assasination? or is it just making more extreme what little you have misrepresented about yourself and the Scriptures?
...and you have yet to respond to how the spirit of Yeshua (the Christ) is the same spirit as Yaweh, toxin!

The only one speaking murder and killing is you; but death is another story.

Yaweh Yeshua has, save for the scars atop it, has completely healed this head...whereas others going through simular such experiences areneither institutionalization cases or vegetables...PRAISE YAH!

I have the privilige of praying and all prayers being answered, and that is that. I do not have to seek for truth in righteousness because He and i are not just in touch.

i walk in the forever life-for-life/blood-for-blood Beriyth in Him, of Him, by Him, and for Him: Yaweh Yeshua Eloheinu.

Something is going to be repeated to you that has been repeated to the Twig DaviaM:

If you are out for war or blood, you picked the wrong person to spar with.

This is not about winning.

Rather, if i or you never existed, what does the Bible clearly reveal irregardless of what supposed hidden meanings anyone contrives.

You need get out of that head that what you think you know is never enough...and if you cannot rightly apply whatever you claim in the here and now: IN REAL LIFE IS with God verifying His approval via results and further freely given knowledge and wisdom andnunderstandings (without having to search and study), it is merely a mental gymnastics and not the TRUTH FOR LIFE being the hidden treasure only experienced by any who remain in Christ Jesus.

Timmy

p.s. i never said anything about any woo woo feeling or sensations verifying anything because they definitely never do.

You now want more clarification again? It was already made perfectly clear to you in the other thread when Charisma first asked for clarification. It is all right there before your own eyes in Torah and Prophets. Why should I explain such things to one who calls me a liar and a heretic? I only do so for the purposes of fellow believers who care and are searching for the truth like David. It matters not to me if we disagree on some things so long as we are both willing to learn from each other. I did not start anything with you but rather it was clearly you who opened up with the great Timmy and his man-o'war can-o'worms, bringing forth your own unique style and flavor of killing technique to use against me, just as you use against David or anyone else who disagrees with you because you perceive anyone who disagrees with your heresy as an enemy, (especially if the things they say are true). The Scripture is perfectly clear that YHWH is our heavenly Father and Yeshua likewise makes it perfectly clear that he himself is not our heavenly Father. The fact that you claim "Yeshua is YHWH" reveals that you do not even have a clue when it comes to the true covenant to which you claim to be enjoined. YHWH divorced Yisrael and the ONLY way anyone may partake of his covenant is through repentance first and foremost and then becoming a son, (a very long walk). The first covenant was broken before Moshe even came down from the mountain in the very beginning, (when he broke the first two tablets) because of the idolatrous golden calf incident. The implications are not immediately recognizable but what this means according to Torah is that the covenant after that time concerns SONS and daughters whereas the holy city becomes the "wife" of God. This is why in such passages as the following YHWH calls his people children as opposed to a wife: "Return, O backsliding children, (baniym-sons) says YHWH." This is the Law and it is clearly expounded through HaNavi Yirmeyahu:

Jeremiah 3:1-25 KJV
1. They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.
2. Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3. Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
4. Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
5. Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
6. The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7. And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of Divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9. And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the Lord.
11. And the Lord said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12. Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
14. Turn, O backsliding children, [baniym-sons] saith the Lord; for I am married [ba`al-Master] unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15. And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; [because Yerushalaim becomes the wife] and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18. In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
19. But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
20. Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.
21. A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the Lord their God.
22. Return, ye backsliding children, [baniym-sons] and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the Lord our God.
23. Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel.
24. For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
25. We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the Lord our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God.

This in fact is the explanation of the true covenant. Would they not from that time call him "My Father"? that is, from the time that the house of Yisrael, (ten tribes) were given a bill of divorcement?

[COLOR=#000080]Jeremiah 3:4 ~ Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, "Abiy"- "My Father, thou art the guide of my youth"?

Jeremiah 3:19 ~ But I said, How shall I put thee among the baniym-sons, and give thee a pleasant land, the Tsebiy inheritance of the armies of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, "Abiy"- My Father; and shalt not turn away from me.

This is not some crazy outsider view like the false image you would like to paint over my face but even Rashi agrees with this understanding. It is YOU who do not understand what you read because you have not repented and therefore the vail remains upon your own heart and mind until your heart is turned unto the Father YHWH, (while admitting at the same time that Yeshua is his Son rather than the same person). You do not have a so-called Hebraic mindset as you claim or you would have known these things. You are simply spinning your wheels and digging your own ditch deeper and deeper:

Rashi's commentary on Jeremiah 3:4 (CJB)

4. Will you not from this time call me, "My Father, You the Master of my youth."

Rashi
Will you not from now: If only you repent of your evil and call me “My Father.” If you do so, will your Lord bear a grudge forever for what you have sinned? Will He keep it to eternity? He will not keep it.
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16000#showrashi=true

Yeshua likewise upholds HaNavi Yirmeyahu and this understanding throughout the Gospel accounts, in all places, worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth and praying to the heavenly Father who is clearly not Yeshua himself. After the resurrection Yeshua makes it even more clear, perfectly clear, that he and the Father are still not the same person. He clearly says so in the following passage where he states to Mariam that he ascends to "the Father of him, and the Father of you, and the God of him, and the God of you."

Yochanan 20:16-17
16. Yeshua says unto her, "Mariam!" Having converted this one says unto him Hebraisti, "Rabboni!" which is to say, "Master Teacher!"
17. Yeshua says unto her, "Not do I adhere-light-the-fire: for not yet am I ascended to the Father: [I]but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto the Father of me, and the Father of you; and the Theon-Elohim-God of me, and the Theon-Elohim-God of you."

Not only are you far outside of the Hebraic or Jewish mindset but in the Jewish mindset you are spewing lashon hara, especially when you accuse someone you do not know of being a liar, and likewise you are actively engaged in, and promoting, avodat zarah.

Charisma

06-15-2014, 02:15 PM

Hi toxon,

I have a question from Hebrews 2:9.

When Jesus tasted death for every man, did He 'taste' it, as in sip a little of it, or did He drink the whole cup, like He told the disciples to do?

Timmy

06-15-2014, 02:38 PM

toxon

06-15-2014, 04:22 PM

Hi toxon,

Little time to explain right now...but it is you who are misunderstanding me...and perhaps this goes the other way as well, but this is because of some thinhs you have stated Somewhat emphatically.

If you missed my response some time ago to your statement that Yerushalayim is the bride, and my own agreement with this, know that we do not speak differently...but you are missing some things and it is all about Remez, Midrash, and "Hebraisms" relative...and the goyim confusion over what actually means. what.

1. How can Paulos present any church body as a chaste bride if that is not what it is?
2. How can there be a bill of divorcement if there is no married bride...
2b...and yet these are called children?
3. Somewhere near the end of Matityahu 12, Yeshua says His mother and brother and sister iis the one whose volition is with His Father's
...yada, yada, yada...
...so, it is not all so clearly linear like you assume.

Rashi may or may not be right and is a heretic. Though i once read and owned all his works, they are not to be trusted, so that part of Timmy's. library was eliminated.

HERETIC=Not teaching Yeshua HaMashiach in relation to the evangelon=identifying with Him, in life dying to yourself taking up your own execution stake daily in accord with all the Drash already written by the Apostles. This is why you are being called one. Your message is not so much promoting life in covenant with Yah through Yeshua (explained fully in B'rit Hadasha), so much as picking and choosing to talk about certain aspects of what the Bible says without full consideration of all is entailed with the thought and intent behind it.

The Father is not Yaweh.
i will show that Yeshua is Yaweh in the flesh (soon enough).

If i were to believe a combination of what you and David promote, i should be baptizing people in the name of Yaweh, Yeshua, and some impersonal force...but Yah Eloheinu is echad, and so much so that without how He shows us to physically iinterpret His representations of Himself, there is no variation whatsoever. This is the reason Elohim sent the Son from Heaven as a final representation of Himself onto us for His own vindication filfilling. the everlasting Covenant.

There is more about all this and no time to detail now.

i never was on any warpath, and where you got the notion to think i am so great is bdyond me, because i am not...but i do have a very low level tolerance for any who claim to serve Yeshua, and then speak as though some authority about their mythos with misinterpretations of Scripture compared with what is actually meant.

You cannot emphasize one aspect of Scripture without accounting for all of it.

As you persist in failing to declare the message and teachings of Yeshua and His Apostles, you have neither the Father nor the Son...so says Yochanan...and Timmy agrees fully.

Later,

Timmy

p.s. You have yet to prove and explain how the spirit of Yaweh, by which the Nevi'im speak, could be anyone other than the Christ Himself (see: Apok/Rev 19.10).

Hi Timmy,
Again, for the forth time now, these are my first words to you:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by toxon http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63245#post63245)

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Timmy http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63094#post63094)
"My body has been changed several times because i believe in Jesus being God come in the form of a man, and worshipping Him as He is Yaweh."

Hi Timmy, how do you understand the following statement from Isaiah? :)

Isaiah 63:15-19 Restored Name KJV (http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa63.htm)
63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

And how do you explain the obvious discrepancies such as the following?

John 14:27-31 KJV
27. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

It is truly astonishingly unbelievable how you can read this:

Isaiah 63:16 Restored Name KJV
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

And see absolutely no discrepancy when you say this:

Quote Timmy:]"The Father is not Yaweh.
i will show that Yeshua is Yaweh in the flesh (soon enough)."[End quote.

No matter how much "drash" you think you have under your belt if you come up with the OPPOSITE of what the Scripture clearly states then your version of "drash" is nothing more than word sorcery. :winking0071:

Hi toxon,

I have a question from Hebrews 2:9.

When Jesus tasted death for every man, did He 'taste' it, as in sip a little of it, or did He drink the whole cup, like He told the disciples to do?

Hi Charisma,

1) The first cup is the B'riyt-Covenant, (Matthew 26:27-29, Mark 14:23-25, Luke 22:17-18).
2) The cup amidst-after the Seder is the B'riyt-Chadashah or New Covenant, (Luke 22:20).
3) The cup from which Yeshua drinks is an immersion-baptism, (Matthew 20:22, Mark 10:38).
4) Every true talmid-disciple of Yeshua will drink of his cup, (Matthew 20:23, Mark 10:39).
5) The cup which Yeshua drank is to taste of death, (Matthew 26:38-44, Luke 22:42-44, John 18:10-11).
6) If I speak according to the Scripture, and the Scripture cannot be broken, then trust me when I say that you too will taste of death but any true talmid of Yeshua who overcomes as he overcame will not see death, (John 8:51) and neither shall he die, (John 11:25-26) for the sons of Olam Haba are like the messengers in the heavens, (Matthew 22:30, Mark 12:25) and isangeloi, (Luke 20:34-36). :)

toxon

06-15-2014, 06:09 PM

p.s. You have yet to prove and explain how the spirit of Yaweh, by which the Nevi'im speak, could be anyone other than the Christ Himself (see: Apok/Rev 19.10).

It has already been partially addressed in Post#21 at the top of Page 3, the previous page of this very thread, however you rather got yourself all hung up on my signature which basically says the same thing as your own signature. Mesiras Nephesh is "self sacrifice" so get to pelekizo-chopping, hammering, and reshaping-remolding dia-through the Testimony of Yeshua and dia-through the Word of the Father: remove your own carnal head so as to truly make Yeshua your head putting on the mind of Messiah as we are admonished to do so as to Live en-in Messiah, (Revelation 20:4). :)

Here it is again:

Perhaps you should follow the discussion about "angels" a little closer then? Did you know that 'Elohim is rendered as "angels" or "messengers" in Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5? What do you or the Timmy have to say about that or how do you explain it? Are there lesser classes of 'elohim that are messenger-angels or is it a mistake or an alteration in the Masoretic Text while the author is quoting from the Septuagint? If you or the Timmy do not even know about this then how is it that you think you are justified in judging one who has already investigated these things? And if you have no answer for why what I just stated is in fact the case, with 'elohim being rendered as "angelous" in Hebrews 2:7, then do you not think it would be wise to go find out how this might impact your doctrine before you start labeling someone else a heretic just because he does not believe what you believe? Perhaps you do not have the grasp on the first two chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews that you imagine? And what of the Prototokos-Firstborn found in Hebrews 1:6? Does it refer to Yisrael or Yeshua or both? And should "oikoumene" be understood as the "world" as widely translated or does it rather refer to the Land, (of Yisrael)? Or do you even think these things matter? Or have you ever even thought to ask such questions?

Hebrews 1:1-6
1. Elohim, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,
3. who being the radiant off-flash of the glory and character of the essence of him, bearing both all of the remati-spoken-words and the dunameos-power of him, a cleansing of sins having made, was seated at the right of the Majesty on high:
4. having become so much better than the messengers; for as much as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
5. For unto which of the messengers said he ever, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
6. Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael ~ Shemot-Exodus 4:22) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."

And every messenger sent to Yisrael after Moshe indeed writes and speaks of Messiah.
And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error? What will you do?
Will you continue blindly as you do even now after so many proofs already having been shown to you?

Hebrews 1:1 Westcott and Hort 1881
ΠΟΛΥΜΕΡΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΟΛΥΤΡΟΠΩΣ πάλαι ὁ θεὸς λαλήσας τοῖς πατράσιν ἐν τοῖς προφήταις
http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-1.htm

"ἐν τοῖς προφήταις" = "in the prophets"

Hebrews 1:2 Westcott and Hort 1881
ἐπ' ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι' οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας·
http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-2.htm

"ἐν υἱῷ" = "in [a/the/his] Son"

Hebrews 1:1-2 Transliterated Unaccented Bible
1. Polumeros kai polutropos palai ho Theos lalesastois patrasin en tois profetais
2. ep eschatou tonhemeron touton elalesen hemin en Huio, hon ethekenkleronomon panton, di hou kai epoiesen tous aionas,

1) "ἐν τοῖς προφήταις" = "en tois profetais" = "in the prophets"
2) "ἐν υἱῷ" = "en Huio" = "in [a/the/his] Son"

Hebrews 1:1-6
1. THE THEOS-ELOHIM, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,

THE FATHER spoke IN THE SON just as he spoke of old time IN THE PROPHETS. :yes:

Timmy

06-16-2014, 04:42 PM

It is truly astonishingly unbelievable how you can read this:

Isaiah 63:16 Restored Name KJV
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

And see absolutely no discrepancy when you say this:

Quote Timmy:]"The Father is not Yaweh.
i will show that Yeshua is Yaweh in the flesh (soon enough)."[End quote.

No matter how much "drash" you think you have under your belt if you come up with the OPPOSITE of what the Scripture clearly states then your version of "drash" is nothing more than word sorcery. It is not about how much drash is known and understood here, and you astonish yourself truly, through your own ignorance you surmise to be so exactingly correct.

It is an issue of you not accepting Scripture that is drash as drash. You pit on your Græco Roman atraight line literalist logic about everything Written as though that has to be what it is when it is not...when you should hold a block thinking mindset, or at least recogmize that this is the way the whole Bible is written.

For example, your quote from Yesha'yahu 63.13 (above) is drash. Of many things, one fact about this phrase is that at a most basic level, it cannot be physically literal. How you figure that these praying rebels against Yah can say that He is their literal progenitor defies rationality and is unreasonable.

Were God their literal father, who is their literal mother?

Why can you not see that these people calling God their father does not mean that He could be the one who had the direct physical hand in both their conception and upbringing?
...yet you assume and apply your misconception across the board.

You will have to show how there is a discrepancy, because there is none...except in your handcapped surmising that because you have a definition for a word, the: context, content, and grammar somehow in your mistaken imaginings plays second, third, or even less significance that how you chose to mistakenly define a word irregardless of the textual intent...
...and so you persist in your vain imaginings only revealing your own headstrong idiotic ignorance without surveying what you need to know before you speak as though you (of all people) are an authority giving off the aire of supposed knowledge.

Those who do not know better are being deceived by your own self deception...and are you proud of this?

What is truly amazing, is how you misinterpret Scripture and do not recognize how you not only declare your own notions to be fact; but, you do the same with me and others here, saying what we never said as though that could be what we are actually saying. Many see you lying about what God's Word actually says, as well as doing the same thing to other people who are made in God's image.

All liars shall have their place in gehenna of GoyHinnom.

...but regarding this very issue of drash, Yeshua says whoever does His Father's will is his mother...if you expect the Yesha'yahu passage to be regarding those peoples literal father, then you must also consider yourself the physical mother of Yeshua (if you actually do work the Father's intentions).

Furthermore, how can Y'israel be given a bill of divorcement were they not God's bride and why does Paulos speak of presenting a church to God as a chaste bride and know full well that Yerushalayim is (going to be) a bride as well.

...you are digging your own hole to find yourself six feet under the stars, and the Timmy will not hesitate to give you more rope to twyst around the solid One until you synch your own slipknot around your own neck.

Now speaking of the Timmy's p.s.:

p.s. You have yet to prove and explain how the spirit of Yaweh, by which the Nevi'im speak, could be anyone other than the Christ Himself (see: Apok/Rev 19.10).
you wrote:
It has already been partially addressed in Post#21 at the top of Page 3, the previous page of this very thread, however you rather got yourself all hung up on my signature which basically says the same thing as your own signature. Mesiras Nephesh is "self sacrifice" so get to pelekizo-chopping, hammering, and reshaping-remolding dia-through the Testimony of Yeshua and dia-through the Word of the Father: remove your own carnal head so as to truly make Yeshua your head putting on the mind of Messiah as we are admonished to do so as to Live en-in Messiah, (Revelation 20:4). :)

Here it is again:

Hebrews 1:1 Westcott and Hort 1881
ΠΟΛΥΜΕΡΩΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΟΛΥΤΡΟΠΩΣ πάλαι ὁ θεὸς λαλήσας τοῖς πατράσιν ἐν τοῖς προφήταις
http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-1.htm
"ἐν τοῖς προφήταις" = "in the prophets"

Hebrews 1:2 Westcott and Hort 1881
ἐπ' ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι' οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας·
http://biblehub.com/text/hebrews/1-2.htm

"ἐν υἱῷ" = "in [a/the/his] Son"
Now, if you insist on your Catholic friends as source, the least we can do is sometimes correct an error of your in rendering (as is the case above:this time it is concerning Greek grammar). The word order indicates the article "the", not his, and definitely not a. This is also one reason there is no article in the Koiné text as this is an understood form of speaking in ancient Greek: not always using the article "the" as it should be understood.

...ok, you continue:
Hebrews 1:1-2 Transliterated Unaccented Bible
1. Polumeros kai polutropos palai ho Theos lalesastois patrasin en tois profetais
2. ep eschatou tonhemeron touton elalesen hemin en Huio, hon ethekenkleronomon panton, di hou kai epoiesen tous aionas,

1) "ἐν τοῖς προφήταις" = "en tois profetais" = "in the prophets"
2) "ἐν υἱῷ" = "en Huio" = "in [a/the/his] Son"
THE son

Hebrews 1:1-6
1. THE THEOS-ELOHIM, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,

THE FATHER spoke IN THE SON just as he spoke of old time IN THE PROPHETS. :yes:
yes...and Father cannot be taken as a literal physical father as nearly all of Hebrews is midrash.

Your own denial that Yeshua is Theos-Elohim puts a stumbling block in your way so that you trip over the intent of the passage and your focus ends up on ha'artz and not upward.

This is not because ofbwhat Timmy thinks either. This is just one primary rule about midrash of remez, irregardless of whatever the Timmy thinks...
and father does not only mean progenitor, but source of beginning and guide in continuing from that point (among other things).

More could be said now concerning the Word, as Yochanan reveals Him, then relating this fact with, yes the Father spoke, but the Word is [THE] God, however this now shall be another addition worked into the text of "Yeshua is The Eternal I AM".

Although you are initiating more delaysover completion of this text, this is good. You are bringing up issues most gentiles are confused about.

My own intent in writing the text is writing apologia that cannot be refuted...and you are helping immensely. This is the main reason you are not being offered complete answers, usually excavating for source/root misunderstandings.

oh, almost forgot...E
the word Elohim ultimately means "judge/judgment through the--representative or their--superior in authority, and can be human, angelic, demonic, or Yah's own dictated dominion. (Here again context clarifies which entity/ies apply in the text).

The Twig DavidiaM said that angels were the Elokim who were part of the "let Us make man in Our own image", however angels/elohim have never created anything…and this is The Creator speaking. Further....oh,that too can now go into the coming text.

Thank you,

Timmy

Timmy

06-16-2014, 05:35 PM

Hi again statikos toxin,

Reading back, and now noting your emphasis on the word "through" (the Son), Timmy is curious.

Please explain how through cannot be locked up with the word "by" and why they cannot be used interchangably???

Now, why don't you donn that happy helmet for a rousing round of
"HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0V4TZAyd8I

toxon

06-16-2014, 08:44 PM

It is not about how much drash is known and understood here, and you astonish yourself truly, through your own ignorance you surmise to be so exactingly correct.

It is an issue of you not accepting Scripture that is drash as drash. You pit on your Græco Roman atraight line literalist logic about everything Written as though that has to be what it is when it is not...when you should hold a block thinking mindset, or at least recogmize that this is the way the whole Bible is written.

For example, your quote from Yesha'yahu 63.13 (above) is drash. Of many things, one fact about this phrase is that at a most basic level, it cannot be physically literal. How you figure that these praying rebels against Yah can say that He is their literal progenitor defies rationality and is unreasonable.

Were God their literal father, who is their literal mother?

Why can you not see that these people calling God their father does not mean that He could be the one who had the direct physical hand in both their conception and upbringing?
...yet you assume and apply your misconception across the board.

You will have to show how there is a discrepancy, because there is none...except in your handcapped surmising that because you have a definition for a word, the: context, content, and grammar somehow in your mistaken imaginings plays second, third, or even less significance that how you chose to mistakenly define a word irregardless of the textual intent...
...and so you persist in your vain imaginings only revealing your own headstrong idiotic ignorance without surveying what you need to know before you speak as though you (of all people) are an authority giving off the aire of supposed knowledge.

Those who do not know better are being deceived by your own self deception...and are you proud of this?

What is truly amazing, is how you misinterpret Scripture and do not recognize how you not only declare your own notions to be fact; but, you do the same with me and others here, saying what we never said as though that could be what we are actually saying. Many see you lying about what God's Word actually says, as well as doing the same thing to other people who are made in God's image.

All liars shall have their place in gehenna of GoyHinnom.

...but regarding this very issue of drash, Yeshua says whoever does His Father's will is his mother...if you expect the Yesha'yahu passage to be regarding those peoples literal father, then you must also consider yourself the physical mother of Yeshua (if you actually do work the Father's intentions).

Furthermore, how can Y'israel be given a bill of divorcement were they not God's bride and why does Paulos speak of presenting a church to God as a chaste bride and know full well that Yerushalayim is (going to be) a bride as well.

...you are digging your own hole to find yourself six feet under the stars, and the Timmy will not hesitate to give you more rope to twyst around the solid One until you synch your own slipknot around your own neck.

Now speaking of the Timmy's p.s.:

p.s. You have yet to prove and explain how the spirit of Yaweh, by which the Nevi'im speak, could be anyone other than the Christ Himself (see: Apok/Rev 19.10).
you wrote:
Now, if you insist on your Catholic friends as source, the least we can do is sometimes correct an error of your in rendering (as is the case above:this time it is concerning Greek grammar). The word order indicates the article "the", not his, and definitely not a. This is also one reason there is no article in the Koiné text as this is an understood form of speaking in ancient Greek: not always using the article "the" as it should be understood.

...ok, you continue:
THE son

yes...and Father cannot be taken as a literal physical father as nearly all of Hebrews is midrash.

Your own denial that Yeshua is Theos-Elohim puts a stumbling block in your way so that you trip over the intent of the passage and your focus ends up on ha'artz and not upward.

This is not because ofbwhat Timmy thinks either. This is just one primary rule about midrash of remez, irregardless of whatever the Timmy thinks...
and father does not only mean progenitor, but source of beginning and guide in continuing from that point (among other things).

More could be said now concerning the Word, as Yochanan reveals Him, then relating this fact with, yes the Father spoke, but the Word is [THE] God, however this now shall be another addition worked into the text of "Yeshua is The Eternal I AM".

Although you are initiating more delaysover completion of this text, this is good. You are bringing up issues most gentiles are confused about.

My own intent in writing the text is writing apologia that cannot be refuted...and you are helping immensely. This is the main reason you are not being offered complete answers, usually excavating for source/root misunderstandings.

oh, almost forgot...E
the word Elohim ultimately means "judge/judgment through the--representative or their--superior in authority, and can be human, angelic, demonic, or Yah's own dictated dominion. (Here again context clarifies which entity/ies apply in the text).

The Twig DavidiaM said that angels were the Elokim who were part of the "let Us make man in Our own image", however angels/elohim have never created anything…and this is The Creator speaking. Further....oh,that too can now go into the coming text.

Thank you,

Timmy

It was just stated on the previous page exactly what you were about to do and herein you do exactly that very thing. The Scripture is true in that even the leopard cannot change his spots. You have attempted to paint a false imagery over my face, as I said, concerning what I believe and how I understand the Scripture. I have never said that YHWH is physical, never, yet you would feign to paint such a false claim over my face simply to invent for yourself something imagined and contrived so as to have something to argue against knowing that there is no argument to what has been posted. YHWH is non-corporeal Spirit: always was, always is, and always will be. I believe what the Scripture says about the Father in both Testaments while you obviously do not because of your fleshly and carnal minded paradigm equating Yeshua and the Father YHWH to be the same person. At the same time nowhere is there any Scripture clearly stating what you believe to be the case but many places there are in Scripture which clearly refute what you believe. Your entire theology is based in suppositions, postulations, assumptions, creeds, and unsupported ultimatums rather than anything which is clearly written in straightforward statements from the manifold texts of holy writ. The underlying unspoken truth is that you have essentially eliminated YHWH as heavenly Father and have replaced him with your new and improved version of Yeshua so that you can worship Yeshua "as God" and invalidate anything from TaNaK that you do not want to uphold. How are you any better off than Marcion the heretic? You have created your own set of theological scissors so as cut out from your mind and sear from your conscience what things you care not to include in your new religion.

John 1:18 KJV
18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 KJV
12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

You have created a false image in the machinations of your vain imagination in the chambers of your own imagery concerning what I believe and how I understand the Scripture. This you do openly here out of shear desperation willing to sacrifice a brother of the faithful so as to maintain your own self righteousness because you have no true argument against what has clearly been shown from the Word. You only prove yourself to be of the spiritual seed line of Cain who slew his brother because his own works were evil and the works of his brother were upright, (again, 1 John 3:12-15). All men have a physical father and mother but where did I ever say or even suggest such a ridiculous and blasphemous thing about my heavenly Father? And when you say that I have misrepresented you it is only because you do not agree that what I have said is actually true because of what the Scripture says and not because of what I say. Everything you have said until now you have said from and of yourself because you have no Scripture to back up your claims. Moreover when you reject half of what is written, as you do, then you feel justified in believing what you do and so cannot see the contradiction because your own belief system effectively nullifies everything written which refutes what you believe to be true. You are the supreme example of a self-fulfilling prophetic tragedy because all of your arguments are based in you being right in your own eyes rather than using the Scripture for the foundation of your understanding. Your reasoning is circular and a closed loop system which relies solely upon "the Timmy" being justified, saved, unable to be deceived, and therefore correct in all of his reasoning simply because someone else once told him it was so. Howbeit the Scripture is likewise a closed loop system and anyone who rejects any part of it remains on the outside looking in. The Timmy suffers from intense and strong delusion and the Scripture clearly states that this comes upon those who reject the love of the Truth and refuse to repent. It is not my judgment but simply what the Scripture says and neither is it myself who rejects any portion of the Scripture as you do. I do not need to defame, malign, or misrepresent the prophets of old time to make my case: I rather believe what they say.

Moreover what gives you the right to reject the Prophet Isaiah and claim that the words written in the passage I quoted are not true? Who are you to call Isaiah a "rebel against Yah"? And who is Yah according to you? Do you also believe that Yeshua is Yah? If so then king David also disagrees with you and that also is clearly shown in the Psalms. Will you label and slander king David also a "praying rebel against Yah" if what I state is shown to be the Truth? The New Covenant writers clearly quote David as prophesying the words of Messiah and speaking of Messiah when Messiah himself worships Yah who is the Father YHWH. Yah is YHWH and Yeshua is the Son of Yah who is YHWH. This can be proven and shown so it really matters not what the Timmy thinks in his vain imagination because the Timmy has nothing from holy writ to support his claims.

Likewise who are you to say that Isaiah was claiming YHWH to be his literal physical father? You are blinded by the god of this world which is your own twin self ruler who rules over your dominion seeing all things according to the eyes and mind of the flesh. Seeing the Father as literal and physical flesh is your own abominable heresy which has come as the result of your own paradigm based in the false assumption that "Yeshua is YHWH" and therefore claiming the Master-Teacher whom YHWH has sent to be the literal physical God in the flesh. You likewise reject the passages I have quoted herein above because if God is literal physical flesh then he cannot be in you but rather, as most of Christianity also believes, he is off somewhere in some heavenly throne waiting to return to the earth in the literal physical form of the man Messiah Yeshua. Neither do you have love for anyone but those who agree with your heresy and therefore you do not have God dwelling in you according to the second passage quoted above, (1 John 4:12). Your attempt to paint a false imagery over my face is simply more lashon hara to deflect attention away from your lack of understanding of the Word. If the Scripture says that no man or "no one", (oudeis) has seen God at any time then I believe it while you once again reject it or attempt to nullify it so that you may continue in your unwillingness to step out of the darkness into the Light. My doctrine works throughout the Scripture and flows from it while your doctrine must necessarily work to nullify any passages that clearly refute you to your face. When understood with an open heart and mind the Scripture is a mirror which reveals our own imperfections but you are not truly willing to look into that mirror for fear of what it might show you concerning yourself. You may study and read much but you appear only to do so in order to justify yourself, your paradigm, and your own self righteousness in the machinations of your vain imagination. Repent first and then go back to reading and studying. There is no reason to address anything else you have brought up here because you cannot perceive the greatest error of all which has been pointed out to you five or six times now. There is the one God and one mediator between God and man: the man Christ Yeshua. God is our heavenly Father. The man Yeshua is our Kohen Gadol, High Priest, and the only Mediator between man and God. God is not a man. God is non-corporeal Spirit and seeks those who will worship him in Spirit and in Truth. Yeshua is the one sent who tells us this Truth himself and directs our worship unto the Father in all of his parables, idioms, sayings, works, acts, and deeds. No one has seen God at any time. God is not literal physical flesh. God is my heavenly Father just as the Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah wrote. I worship God my heavenly Father. You worship the mediator who was sent to reconcile and restore you unto the heavenly Father.

Timmy

06-17-2014, 04:23 AM

toxon

06-17-2014, 04:46 AM

Toxin?

You predicted nothing.
You are just attempting to reinterpret what is already established fact in terms you can make them seem to yourself as though they are not true, and therefore irrelevant.

Do you not realize that as you have been going alone spouting off your inconsisent false prophecies and teachings, you are cutting yourself off not only from True believers, but reality itself?

What you assume are painting of false images in your surmisings are not as you falsely assume.

Your own Bibliolatry blinds y o u. Your megalithic stumbling block is only looking at words as though you somehow have the right and authority to reinterpret them according to your own ignorance...and you are not even looking to try to see what has been briefly explained to you.

As stated to David, there is none so blind as he who will not look...and so you continue searching to try to work everything out according to your own misunderstandings.

How's that working out for you?

Were Yaweh incorpreal, then there would never be any type of representation of Himself by Himself for Himself to us in the physical realm. Get it?

Since Yaweh is so incorpreal, why don't you explain how He walked with Adamah and Isha in the cool of the day, you idiot?

You have set up too many roadblocks unto yourself.

Theonly reason you speak about God as though He were some unapproachable distant incorpreal entity is because you have no viable active relationship with Him. All your slobbering all over the place from your vain blabberings only shows you love to talk about God, butwhen it comes right down to relating with Him one on one, you really have no clear concept about the how...because you reject who Yeshua actually is.

Perhaps staitikos toxin is too nice a handle for you whom i have no desire to know from Adam. Maybe something about profound ignorance or idiocy is far more fitting.

You tell me.

Since the last note to you, your site has been observed as just how mystified you are by your own mysticism extrapolated outside of reality. Spiritual and physical are not two seperate things you cockamaimy contrapolator of illustrious concoctions confusing yourself. There is no such thing as anything that can be recognized as spiritual without it impinging on physical reality. The long and short of it is there is no such thing as supernatural in a physical realm. If there is any type of manifastation phyaically of anything understood to be spiritual, it is no longer supernatural because it has manifested in the natural realm. Get it? Every single physical thing is spiritual..and for you to draw lines in the sand piling up from failed attempts to throw it in others faces exemplifies the traveling roadshow of a permanently warped stick thinking some sinew tied between it's two ends makes itself cogently linear.

Oh please, bamboozle yourself all the more so we can get a few more hearty laughs in before you bravely run away, coward.

What Timmy does not get about you is how you assume others will ignore what you ignore about about what they do not ignore?

You are one twysted sister, and seidwhynding all ways everywhere you find it fitting to start doing your dervish spinning thinking that you could ever be the ultimate ballerina...to say nothing of that ludicrous tutu you wear, stained with your own P.P.™

Rilly, the Timmy has not the time now, but to have quickly perused the beginning and end of your previois post, but will do so later.

You cannot pick and choose what any certain Scripture means based upon your screwed up method of "triangulation".

Let me explain a better way:FIRSTby two or three different source references from Scripture about whatever Scripture is being studied prove it's own wrirten validity...and not even 30 renditions of the self-ames text can do that, because you do not clearly recognize contrast looking at synonymous variations of the same passage(s)/verse(s)/phrase(s),..and you best do better with cultural and historic context or always be clearly recognized for the heretic you are.

SECONDARY, if it is only about words, then it is irrelevant by default. This is to say, that whatever you cannot apply and attest to the physically inapplicable validity of whatever Scriptures, there is no way to prove whether what you assume is actually true or not...so this places whatever the info as though it were myth and fables, if one cannot cut it straight as aphysically viable true fact of principle or precept.

Bah, time to be off...hope thereis time for more later.

Timmy

Yada, yada, yada, there you go again; garbage in, garbage out. I never said it was a "prediction" but rather implied that it is quite easy to tell a leopard because he cannot change his spots, even as the Scripture states, (you should try using the Scripture too sometime) and what you have already done was easy to know that you would soon do again. That is not prophecy by any stretch of the imagination except in your case I suppose. Neither have I made any so-called "prophecies" as you have falsely claimed. As for the rest it is all blather and lashon hara once again: was that another "prediction" or rather simply knowing a daffy duck by all of his quackery? The Scripture says what it says: "No one has seen God at any time", period. Your analogies and allegories do not even compute: nobody in his or her right mind thinks that a father and a son are the same individual. If it does not compute in the physical world it does not compute in the Spirit world because all physical things created by God in the physical realm are created for our learning and understanding. There are many men who claim to be like their fathers but only moonstruck lunatics think they are their own fathers. :lol:

Here's another very simply put statement:

1 Corinthians 11:1-3 KJV
1. Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3. But I would have you know, [I]that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

How long do you suppose the first epistle to the Corinthians was written after the Resurrection?
How about how long was it after Sha'ul had his encounter with Messiah in the way to Dammeseq-Qumran?
Wasn't the first epistle to Corinth somewhere around 56AD?
How about the following also while you are at it:

2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth (from now on) know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth (from now on) know we him no more.

Sorry flesh man but you need to give up that twin-goat before your elder brother will enter your house. :lol:

toxon

06-17-2014, 06:29 AM

Theonly reason you speak about God as though He were some unapproachable distant incorpreal entity is because you have no viable active relationship with Him. All your slobbering all over the place from your vain blabberings only shows you love to talk about God, butwhen it comes right down to relating with Him one on one, you really have no clear concept about the how...because you reject who Yeshua actually is.

Ummm, hate to be the bearer of bad news again Timmy but I never said God was distant in any way. In fact I have quoted Paul from Acts 17 at Mars Hill already elsewhere. Here is another primer to jog your distant memory: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." Likewise the heavens and the heavens of the heavens cannot contain him. In fact you are polluting his air with the murder on your breath. But as for his unapproachable Light the apostle Paul speaks of the Father in the very same way:

From Paulos to Timotheos to the Timmy of the Timmies:

1 Timothy 6:13-16 KJV
13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

See there is a difference between the two statements "King of kings and Lord of lords", (the Father, as in Revelation 19:16) and "Lord of lords and King of kings", (Yeshua the Lamb of God, as in Revelation 17:14) And was it not Paul himself who saw a great white blinding light on the road to Dammeseq-Qumran? Ah, yes, it was Paul, and it was Yeshua whom he says spoke to him:

Acts 26:12-18 KJV
12. Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13. At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17. Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18. To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Why does Yeshua not simply say "from the power of Satan unto me" instead of from the power of Satan unto God? Why? Because he is the mediator between God and man. Do you properly understand what a mediator is? Even at this point long after the resurrection Yeshua is still directing the faithful unto God who is the heavenly Father. Likewise above, in 1 Timothy 6:16, Paul still says that God dwells in the Light which no man can approach unto, and whom no man has ever seen, nor can see, and this is well after his encounter with Yeshua where he was blinded three days. It is clear and obvious to anyone who is not blind that Paul speaks of the Father in 1 Tmothy 6:15-16 whom he calls the BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTATE. This is much like a Rabbi saying "HaShem, blessed be He." So either now you are also calling Paul a liar, just as you did Isaiah and Jeremiah when you called them "praying rebels against Yah", or else you are in great error. Which one do you suppose it is?

I have my suspicions as to your answer but I wouldn't want to be accused of making more predictions! :)

Timmy

06-17-2014, 07:33 AM

toxon

06-17-2014, 08:05 AM

Hebraisms toxin.

No one in their right mind would consider that Yeshua meant literally that one person can be mother, sister, and brother to Him all at the same time, however this is what He declares.

How can the children of Yakov and Yisrael be both the children of Yaweh and His bride deserving a bill of divorcement.

You cannot see the forest for the trees is the plain and simple of it...

...and since when can a son not also be a father, or a father also a son?

Hebraisms dingbat: children of, father of, son of, brother sister mother of of of...

DO YOU GET IT YET?

You are too hilarious in your own chosen discombobulations.

Speaking of God who cannot be seen, some say this is the whole of Elohim, but Timmy agrees with others that this is direct reference to the "Father".
(no time to detail now, but what else are you going to blather on about, proving you give miniscule regard for cultural, historic, and grammatic context?

Hunh?

Leopard...what a joke:hysterical:..and at least we can both agree that prophet prophecying you are not

Your assumption that the Scriptures are less than ingrained herein is simply nuts.

David thimks you are supposed to be nice to everyone, however, this is not the example of Yeshua.

If you are not doing the Will of the Father and rather expounding lies mingled with some truth as though authoratatively correct, you are no mare a brother of mine than the devil.

Why don't you examine yourself by what you are doing through your choice of convoluting Scripture with Græco Romanized linear reasonings, and creating confusion for those who lack the capacity to discern your errors.

Personalizing the 19th chapter from ha Tehillim may be a good start, the Word of God being the way to become...instead of muddling along muddying these pristine clear waters.

Contrary to what you think, i am not asking for any clarification. You need to speak plainly just so everyone can see you for who you rilly are not.

Niger panthera pardus sese in nocte,

The Timmy

It is clearly you who does not get it Timmy. The Scripture says "Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our Father". This has been quoted to you six or seven times now yet you continue to stand by your claim that "Yeshua is YHWH" and therefore by default you are claiming that Yeshua is our heavenly Father. You can deny that you make that claim all you want but that is the result of your claim and unfortunately what happens why you ignore passages of Scripture which refute you to your face. It is you who refuses to admit you are in error even to the point of speaking boldly and defiantly against the prophet Isaiah who penned those words by calling him a "praying rebel against Yah". Your blasphemous conclusions are not "Hebraisms" but rather word sorcery and idol imagery. This is truly becoming a waste of time and I am beginning to wonder if you are not the same Timmy from "Letters from God and his Christ" the cultist. It would not surprise me one bit as you are the loudest when it comes to proclaiming others to be cultists so as to save your own skin.

:prophet:

Charisma

06-17-2014, 02:27 PM

Greetings, all,

I see I have fallen behind in this thread, so if my replies seem to be a diversion, it is not intended that anyone should lose track of where they think they are right now, wherever that may be from your own perspectives.

From page 3:

The above is timmy-tomfoolery of the highest magnitude and a meaningless waste of time:

You might think so, but something has changed since I wrote it, and all to the good.

And for the avoidance of doubt ...

Not here to discuss the "high pain threshold" of the Timmy or his "metamorphosing techniques".

You were not being invited to discuss it. It was information, to help you get your bearings. You were beginning to sound like Saul.

Where have I ever said we do not have "a spirit" of our own?

You have, in the past, to my knowledge; and in Mesiras Nephesh alluded to 'tripartarians' as if this was somehow relevant.

Here was your context, which I'm sure you remember. Before I place it here below, though, let me say that the argument you make is riddled with assumptions about what I believe, including the assumption that whatever that is (what I believe) must be wrong. You wrote here (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?5719-Mesiras-Nephesh&p=63264#post63264).

And the reason why is because Yeshua clearly petitions the Father that we may be one as he and the Father are one. The reasoning and terminology is exactly the same as how he uses the oneness between himself and the Father. If Yeshua means that he is equal to God when he makes the statement "I and my Father are one", as you appear to be claiming and as most tripartarians need to claim so that they may be "saved", then in fact the implications are undeniable that he makes the same claim concerning anyone else who follows his doctrine. However, we all know this is not the case, at least outwardly we all claim to know it, unless you openly claim to be Elohim:

John 17:9-12 KJV
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:19-23 KJV
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, [Re: Hebrews 2:11] that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

According to your theory, if Jesus is God, then so are you. I trow not!
And by the way, yes, I know from where my quote was derived when I quoted Hebrews 2:11.

Apart from any other comment I made, I asked what 'tripartarian' had to do with the discussion? I'm not sure you answered.

Who exactly do you think he is that is the unclean spirit of the world?

My first response to this question is to ask which one? It would be easy to say 'Satan', but I don't believe it's that simple. 'The spirit that now worketh in the children of unbelief' is definitely Satan. But, is 'the god of this world' Satan, or is it gold? In general, 'unclean' would fit perfectly with any spirit related to idolatry, to which many Israelites were fatally addicted, and for which Isaiah was sent to them with a curse (Isaiah 6).

I know you have an interpretation which refers to the seven spirits which Jesus said would come back to a man whose house had been cleansed, but it is interesting to me, that He finished His statement with, 'Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation'. Matt 12.

So, was He talking about the individual man and his peer group, regardless of which century he lived, or was He referring to that particular generation of Israelites; or, was He referring to the first birth which every single descendant of Adam has to negotiate?

And, doesn't the idea of the 'wicked generation', and 'the dry places' (Zion) in 'the land', go rather well with -

'And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts,
that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land,
and they shall no more be remembered:
and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.' Zechariah 13

The fact of there being 'the unclean spirit' in 'the land', sounds much more territorial, than (only) each individual died-in-Adam-man. There is, of course, more to any discussion about territorial spirits, but it is an awesome claim by Zechariah, that God 'will cause the unclean spirit to pass out of the land'. And while it can be read that the man is the land, it must therefore be acknowledged that it is now possible - and expected - for the temple - the man - to become clean, and remain perfectly set apart to God for His uses.

This request, brought over from "Shema Yisrael", Post #19, Page Two (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?5199-Shema-Yisrael&p=63868#post63868) seems somewhat mischievous, and again forces me to comment on the logic you use (or perhaps we should say, don't use).

There is 1 [heis] God and there is 1 [heis] mediator between God and men: the man Yeshua Messiah.
Otherwise every talmid can become a mediator between God and man if we are one [hen] with Messiah.
By watering down the meaning of heis you are watering down the authority of Messiah as the only Mediator.
Perhaps you can likewise answer for the Timmy on the above since he has not responded in the other thread.

So, by what logic is there any 'watering down' of the authority of Messiah as the only mediator through the use of heis (masculine) compared with hen (neuter)? To even suggest such, makes no sense whatever. In fact, it's a similar non-sensical argument to which you brought the suggestion that by believing we are tripartite, that somehow means I might think I am Elohim. Too many skipping stones for me, brother. You need to slow down. Please?

Perhaps you should follow the discussion about "angels" a little closer then? Did you know that 'Elohim is rendered as "angels" or "messengers" in Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5? What do you or the Timmy have to say about that or how do you explain it? Are there lesser classes of 'elohim that are messenger-angels or is it a mistake or an alteration in the Masoretic Text while the author is quoting from the Septuagint? If you or the Timmy do not even know about this then how is it that you think you are justified in judging one who has already investigated these things? And if you have no answer for why what I just stated is in fact the case, with 'elohim being rendered as "angelous" in Hebrews 2:7, then do you not think it would be wise to go find out how this might impact your doctrine before you start labeling someone else a heretic just because he does not believe what you believe? Perhaps you do not have the grasp on the first two chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews that you imagine? And what of the Prototokos-Firstborn found in Hebrews 1:6? Does it refer to Yisrael or Yeshua or both? And should "oikoumene" be understood as the "world" as widely translated or does it rather refer to the Land, (of Yisrael)? Or do you even think these things matter? Or have you ever even thought to ask such questions?

Hebrews 1:1-6
1. Elohim, having spoken to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways of old time;
2. hath in these last days spoken to us in his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he acted out the aionas-ages,
3. who being the radiant off-flash of the glory and character of the essence of him, bearing both all of the remati-spoken-words and the dunameos-power of him, a cleansing of sins having made, was seated at the right of the Majesty on high:
4. having become so much better than the messengers; for as much as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
5. For unto which of the messengers said he ever, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"? And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"?
6. Moreover when he leads the prototokos-firstborn, (Yisrael ~ Shemot-Exodus 4:22) anew-again into the land, (of Yisrael) he says: "And let all the messengers of Elohim do obeisance unto him."

And every messenger sent to Yisrael after Moshe indeed writes and speaks of Messiah.
And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error? What will you do?
Will you continue blindly as you do even now after so many proofs already having been shown to you?

I hope you felt better after writing all those question marks! :lol: I have no idea what the big deal is about elohim in Hebrew being translated as angels in Greek. Yes, I knew about it. And yes, there is another way to translate 'angel' into English, as we see at the start to each letter to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. And yes, I have studied Hebrews 1 and 2 (and the rest of the epistle) quite closely.

In respect to your point 6 above, surely that is a no-brainer, if the land is the Man (Messiah), as you have many times pointed out??????

So, have you also done an extensive study on 'the firstborn', to balance up your thinking about 'the man' (or, the Man)?

Without that study you may be missing a LOT. As you've never referred to such a study, I'm guessing you have not dug into it, yet.

With regard to 'And what then if every English translation of the above is found to be in error? What will you do?' You will need to explain why it has to be only one or the other, and not both (or more than two) for me to understand the passion with which your question appears to be being asked.

Please spill the beans... :)

:playball:

Over to you. :)

Charisma

06-17-2014, 02:38 PM

Timmy

06-17-2014, 03:59 PM

It is clearly you who does not get it Timmy. The Scripture says "Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our Father". This has been quoted to you six or seven times now yet you continue to stand by your claim that "Yeshua is YHWH" and therefore by default you are claiming that Yeshua is our heavenly Father. You can deny that you make that claim all you want but that is the result of your claim and unfortunately what happens why you ignore passages of Scripture which refute you to your face. It is you who refuses to admit you are in error even to the point of speaking boldly and defiantly against the prophet Isaiah who penned those words by calling him a "praying rebel against Yah". Your blasphemous conclusions are not "Hebraisms" but rather word sorcery and idol imagery. This is truly becoming a waste of time and I am beginning to wonder if you are not the same Timmy from "Letters from God and his Christ" the cultist. It would not surprise me one bit as you are the loudest when it comes to proclaiming others to be cultists so as to save your own skin.

:prophet:

This may be the last direct comminique with you until the text coming is complete...unless somethingbelse concerning your heresy needs agitating toward the Timmy's further clarification.

You are too dumb to listen and too stupid to look beyond any of your misperceived misconceptions.

It doesn't matter how many times you quote whatever as long as you persist in ignoring the context, of which our own Oriental mindset is abjectly and ignorantly missing from your devoid misunderstood misinterpretations.

You call it word sorcery and we know this as a way of thinking and doing. Enter the culture to truly understand whatnwe really arensaying, or shut up with your innanities.

So, in your convoluted confused misunderstanding, you most obviously reject and apparently fail recieving the rich full meaning through the words of Ha'Mashiach at the first renwed B'rit Pesach supper alone with His chosen talmidim; but, speaking specificaly--and respectively--to Kefa, T'oma, and Philip (as recorded in Yochanan 14), He proclaims,"...trust Elohyim and[in the same way, likewise]trust in Me...I AM The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Because you know Me, you will also know the Father. Henceforth, you do know Him--in fact, you have seen Him...if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father...Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father..the Father living in Me is doing His own works...I AM united [b] with the Father, and the Father united [b] with Me...ask Me for something in My Name,--[meaning: (being representatives in and of) His person, purpose, and power]--I will do it. If you love Me, KEEP MY COMMANDS.

Yeshua is The Truth (just shown as well as Source I Am of all ha'Nevi'im/theProphets being The Word of the Father
(...and without speaking, no God is revealed or known. So "the Father" tpeaks to us these last days in and through/by His Son, who is the more sure Word of prophecy), whom Elohyim Himself(s) even exalts above His own name, saying Yeshua is God commanding all angels to worship this HaMashiach.)

So, when you are shown to look at (but instead choose to ignore) a passage revealing ,"...I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the Word of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy...” ...and that Kefa reveals prophecy comes through the spirit of the Christ...as well as the fact that the apostles in different passages refer to the Scriptures being the word of kurios/the Lord/Jesus (or in manners akin to this...so one can see if they look that the words of the Bible are the Word of Elohim/God, who is Yaweh/Jesus...DO YOU DENY ALL EVIDENCE CONTRARY TO YOUR MISTAKEN NOTIONS SURMISING THAT THE SON OF THE FATHER CANNOT BE THE FATHER TO US, BROTHER, AND VERY GOD OF GOD AS WELL?

Timmy now has to add all this to the growing text now, but you are yet to be shown how heretical you are.

Timmy is glad God is not limited to your pitiful attempts to limit Yaweh Yeshua, being HIS ONLY faithful true revelation of Himself given so we may relate with Him on His terms.

...and still you persist with teaching the destructive heresy you introduce for your own self inflation...a hairbreath of dirty gain in exchange for damnation burning in eternal flames.

That's your choice.

The Timmynhas read enough from your site to know several things clearly proving you are lying against the truth, by default denying the Master who purchased you with His own Life blood. Out from the 11 pages read, the words of the physical abba of my physical abba perpetually arise and continue ringing through this consciousness. If knowledge of the truth were not sufficient to recognize when andnwhere you intentionally intermingle lies with truth, my grandpa's words are sufficient to know you cannot be depended upon as anything but a liar.

In closing, first this quote from my grandpa, and after that, a few words from his son and my abba:

"Never trust anyone who is always the hero of their own stories."
&
"If they will steal the truth from you, they could steal anything else."

Your father is a murderous lying thief, even as you are a child of hell.
(How's dat for Hebraisms...hunh?)

Even as Yeshua and His Apostles confronted false teachers with condemnation marking them, so does the Timmy.

Burn baby burn:
LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE,

Timmy

Charisma

06-17-2014, 04:20 PM

By the way, toxon, I will be back to answer more, but right now I'm replying in Mesiras Nephesh. After that I need some sleep. So... tomorrow. :)

I hope you will answer where I have indicated your response is invited.

toxon

06-17-2014, 07:19 PM

Hi Timmy,

Now that I've read this

'As for the use of one or the other word for one in Koiné???
...neither of them are equivalent to the Hebrew words they are meant to be synonymous with.
So what do you do?
You blow the reality off for one of your own delusions
based on this very misunderstanding,
then run with that instead.

You have continued using (predominantly) Roman Catholic and/or that which has been extremely influenced in the Græco-Romanized mindset as your proof sources, such as: Westcott and Hort, Strong's, and the LXX.'

in context, I understand it, so no need to add anything unless 'instructed'. :)

Neither do you understand Charisma because you have allowed an anthropos-man, (whom you imply is your "instructor") to deceive you. I owe neither you nor "the Timmy" anything more than what I have already provided from the Scripture in two large threads. You now have two threads full of Scripture which has demolished every one of your false claims and neither you nor the Timmy has even attempted an answer to any one of the points made because you are not willing to follow context. All that the two of you have done over and over again is to deny, deny, deny, and ignore, ignore, ignore, and of course "the Timmy" throws in his flaming rituals full of false accusations and condemnations hoping that his god will show himself and destroy me on the spot, (for how long will he continue to cut himself?). Even this very thread and what is posted on the previous page at the bottom the both of you have ignored. You don't get it: your entire foundation is already laid waste and become a burning pile of ruins. Not because of me but because of what is written. The Timmy has either ignored or skipped over the surface texts and gone straight into drash and sod which is always and invariably a recipe for colossal disaster. His and your foundations are built upon sand. Yeshua did indeed purchase us with his own blood but as it was shown to you in the other thread he purchased us unto our God, (Revelation 5:9). Why should I answer any more of your questions when you have not answered any of what I have presented from the Scripture? It is not me or my own words the two of your are denying.

Timmy

06-17-2014, 09:48 PM

Hey there staticallybwarped stick,

You are not expected to answer because you cannot.

You have been shown different angles of how Yeshua is Yaweh withour getting into the specific proofs (coming).

Because of your disability in understanding that Yeshua is Yaweh, and thus Elohim, this handicap disallows you from seeing beyond your blindness. You are deaf to what you have been told...
...so why could you even be able to answer in kind?

As for what you say expecting some sort of controvarsial response, get a grip. i have gone through such movements time and again with too many kultists IRL to recount the futility of going through those same old motions again: you say this, then i say that (repeat). At this point in time, thqt rodeo has been visited well over 100 times...as in too many to count, having quit with those boorish boring games for a better approach ending arguments before they start ...and this is what i have not rilly had time yet to do with you.

So, don't think you are not foing to be responded to.

Much of what you say is agreed with,
Some is known to be skewd misunderstandings,
Some is just plain old mystical mythico rubbish,
Some is just you puting words in others mouths,
Some is plain old lies,
and some of it is funny.

Do you recall me telling you your basis of being deceived to deceive is according to a faulty foundation?
Until you are further shown irrefutably that Yeshua is recognized being Yaweh by all the primitive church (via Bible proof),
and that what you say about Yeshua is as well historically recognized being nothing other than heretical,
amd because you are too haughty to seek these facts out for yourself,
all you have are words to meddle with,
whereas i live through/by a walking talking relationship with Yeshua.
He is Yaweh and His spirit is my Life.

There is no argument that can stand against this.

You have a choice between only a powerless form of godliness or resurrection dumamis: Zoe Life only available in Yeshua Ha'Mashiach...and one does not experience anything of this lying about who Yeshua is...whether by misunderstanding or the bald faced lies that are parcel with that.

You do not know God or His power in your life because you lie against the truth.

As one becomes correct concerning this very issue, so the relationship with Him continues growing.

Have you examined yourself in light of the need to conform to Scripture as revealed in Psalm 19, or did you b low thqt off like everything else thqt doesnt fit in your own little cofnitively biased mini-paradigm, only to lose out on the meta-paradigm that is the paradox above and beyond all paradox?

Will you persist with word sorcery, thinking triqngulating words bourne through some non-reputable sources is leading you to truth in righteousness, or can you accept and receive Yeshua being our only salvation, truth, and righteousness...exactly as only Yaweh is I Am...or what do you surmise this from Hebrews 13.8-9a means:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings
? ¿ ? ¿ ?

Whether you bravely run away or not
Respond or don't.
You can just think about what little has already been shown you.

The Timmy

toxon

06-17-2014, 11:15 PM

Will you persist with word sorcery, thinking triqngulating words bourne through some non-reputable sources is leading you to truth in righteousness, or can you accept and receive Yeshua being our only salvation, truth, and righteousness...exactly as only Yaweh is I Am...or what do you surmise this from Hebrews 13.8-9a means:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings
? ¿ ? ¿ ?

Whether you bravely run away or not
Respond or don't.
You can just think about what little has already been shown you.

The Timmy

Nice try but what the passage truly says in itself denotes the beginning and the end:

Hebrews 13:8 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
8. Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;

Matthew 28:20 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
20. teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days - till the full end of the age.'

Luke 22:37 KJV
37. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end [GSN#5056 telos].

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 KJV
24. Then cometh the end, [GSN#5056 telos] when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 22:8-16 KJV
8. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, [GSN#5056 telos] the first and the last.

Sorry for your left handed euonumos luck but these things are not what YHWH says of himself in Yeshayah.

Revelation 22:13 ASV
13. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first [GSN#4413 protos] and the last, [GSN#2078 eschatos]the beginning [GSN#746 arche] and the end [GSN#5056 telos].

You have taken the Son who rules Time and replaced him with TheON who is outside of Time.
You have taken TheON who is outside of Time and replaced him with the Son who rules Time.
Therefore you know neither of them for YHWH is he who was, and who is, and who is to come: The Being.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

John 16:22-27 KJV
22. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27. For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

You mistake Time for Eternity and you mistake the Mediator for the Father Himself.
I worship the Father IN the Spirit-Testimony-Doctrine-Name of Messiah Yeshua.
You worship the Mediator sent to reconcile you unto the Father.

toxon

06-18-2014, 01:03 AM

It doesn't matter how many times you quote whatever as long as you persist in ignoring the context, of which our own Oriental mindset is abjectly and ignorantly missing from your devoid misunderstood misinterpretations.

Speaking of "Oriental mindset" you clearly do not have what you claim and it is clearly shown by the most basic of principles which begins with the lesson of swine and why they are so vile. The Epistle of Barnabas clearly lays this out for you:

Barnabas 10:2 Yea and further He saith unto them in Deuteronomy; And I will lay as a covenant upon this people My ordinances. So then it is not a commandment of God that they should not bite with their teeth, but Moses spake it in spirit.
Barnabas 10:3 Accordingly he mentioned the swine with this intent. Thou shalt not cleave, saith he, to such men who are like unto swine; that is, when they are in luxury they forget the Lord, but when they are in want they recognize the Lord, just as the swine when it eateth knoweth not his lord, but when it is hungry it crieth out, and when it has received food again it is silent.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/barnabas.html

Understand swineman? Swine worship the food itself or the physical vessel but swine are completely ignorant of the SOURCE of the food which was provided. In like manner you worship "the food" instead of the One who provided it who is the SOURCE. Yeshua is not only "the food" and manna from heaven "Bread of Life" as he says but likewise he is the physical vessel dia-through whom the Power of the Father flows because Yeshua is the physical glory of the Father which things only became possible when Yeshua EMPTIED himself of himself. I worship the Father who is the SOURCE OF ALL POWER while you worship the vessel through whom the source of the power flowed when Yeshua walked the earth as a man. This is basic Judaism 101 and any self-respecting Jew knows these things from his youth. Salvation is of the Jews, as Yeshua likewise said, which you also ignored when you tried to paint the Jews as traitors and liars about the word 'echad in the other thread. And you think you have an Oriental mindset?

:hysterical:

Surely have I done as admonished not to cast my pearls before one such as you!
As I said: you do not know me from Adam . . . :lol:

Timmy

06-18-2014, 03:42 AM

Nice try but what the passage truly says in itself denotes the beginning and the end:

Hebrews 13:8 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
8. Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages;

Matthew 28:20 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
20. teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days - till the full end of the age.'

Luke 22:37 KJV
37. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end [GSN#5056 telos].

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 KJV
24. Then cometh the end, [GSN#5056 telos] when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 22:8-16 KJV
8. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, [GSN#5056 telos] the first and the last.

Sorry for your left handed euonumos luck but these things are not what YHWH says of himself in Yeshayah.

Revelation 22:13 ASV
13. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first [GSN#4413 protos] and the last, [GSN#2078 eschatos]the beginning [GSN#746 arche] and the end [GSN#5056 telos].

You have taken the Son who rules Time and replaced him with TheON who is outside of Time.
You have taken TheON who is outside of Time and replaced him with the Son who rules Time.
Therefore you know neither of them for YHWH is he who was, and who is, and who is to come: The Being.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

John 16:22-27 KJV
22. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27. For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

You mistake Time for Eternity and you mistake the Mediator for the Father Himself.
I worship the Father IN the Spirit-Testimony-Doctrine-Name of Messiah Yeshua.
You worship the Mediator sent to reconcile you unto the Father.statikos toxon,

FYI, you permanently warped stick, the Timmy is getting through to you whether you care to admit it or not.
If you just deflate that head a bit, you will not be sooo embarassed when your misconfabulations of some sub-grandioso schemata are ahnihilated in one fell swoop.

You again are lying about Scripture and what i said, again attempting to make up words and paltry misdesignations that are not what my text says.

What else could be expected from a seidwhynding serpent such as the wannabe yourself.

One title Yesha'yahu declares signifies Yeshua is Father of eternity. The whole Bible reveals this: The Holy One is here, although not currently present. The point is, eternity entered time physically through the tabernacle known to be the body of HaMashiach Ye hua...but you think that time and eternity are two seperate things...which reveals your ignorance of not only the Scriptures but physics, Quantum Flux being the issue we are now talking about, as well as the first chapter of Yochanan/John.

To simplify things for a warped stick, draw one circle within another circle. The outside circle actually is without bounds, but for the sake of mnemonics think of that outside circle being eternity/quantum flux, and the inner circle the time-space continuum. Eternity contains all of the time-space continuum; however, not one element of physics within the time space continuum can contain eternity/quantum flux.

Amazing as it may seem, the Scripture are not written for people who cannot accept or deal with them as one comprehensive whole.

Your own picking and choosing what you assume to be correct shall be your own downfall, oh mighty hero of all your own stories.

The Bible is only written for the believer, to equipt these alone thouroughly.

You may mentally ascend to certain Biblical facts, but until you are capable of receiving His Life (being Mashiach Yah'oshuvah declared as God by the Father), your stupid ᢭ĉ５鄀ࠗ讇Ơ word games are leading you down the road to nowhere fast.

If you were a true follower of Yeshua, you would not be wasting everyones time talking the perverted twistings of Scripture you do...ever failing to account for the complete context, and worse failing miserably not proclaiming the gospel of Jesus/God.

You wish to come off as some profound teacher, yet not once here have you yourself brought up the blood of God, the life giving spirit of the Christ, the historic relativity about the life of Yeshua in this, and how it applies as permanent Beriyth in the here and now.

James has made it clear in chapter three yours is the greater condemnation, and because of your failure toward equipting the saints with His gospel, Paul in Galatians 1.8-9 repeats you are already damned and to be avoided.

You mock because you cannot understand.

You cannot understand because of your unbelief regarding Yeshua.

You are nothing more than a wannabe windbag of hot air, stirring up dust which some mistake for smoke rising from the fire, daq.

...and, however you surmised yourself into your false impression that my hope is anything but toward your best is wrong.
If i hated you, do you really think i would even read what you say, much less give it even a bit of thought?
There is no time to respond to your other post, but until the superdeeduper text is forewarded here, it seems it is going to be the same old same old back and forth volleys of piecemeal tidbits because that is your focus: swallowing the gimel because of missing the forest for the trees.

Hope to catch you later you cowardly heretical reprobate.

WAKA WAKA EH EH,

Timmy

p.s. You will never truly understand the gospels until you are walking in the regenerative experience of Yah. If you do not receive this cut-straight you cannot ever get it right: overcoming in life by God's own blood, the word of your martyrdom, and not loving your life unto the death.

So, all this useless yada yada yada...quibbling over words, is the gambit of a simpleton wannabe poser who cannot recognize themself in reality being a liar and a thief.

toxon

06-18-2014, 04:02 AM

FYI, you permanently warped stick,

One title Yesha'yahu declares signifies Yeshua is Father of eternity. The whole Bible reveals this: The Holy One is here, although not currently present. The point is, eternity entered time physically through the tabernacle known to be the body of HaMashiach Ye hua...but you think that time and eternity are two seperate things...which reveals your ignorance of not only the Scriptures but physics, Quantum Flux being the issue we are now talking about, as well as the first chapter of Yochanan/John.

To simplify things for a warped stick, draw one circle within another circle. The outside circle actually is without bounds, but for the sake of mnemonics think of that outside circle being eternity/quantum flux, and the inner circle the time-space continuum. Eternity contains all of the time-space continuum; however, not one element of physics within the time space continuum can contain eternity/quantum flux.

Amazing as it may seem, the Scripture are not written for people who cannot accept or deal with them as one comprehensive whole.

Your own picking and choosing what you assume to be correct shall be your own downfall, oh mighty hero of all your own stories.

The Bible is only written for the believer, to equipt these alone thouroughly.

You may mentally ascend to certain Biblical facts, but until you are capable of receiving His Life (being Mashiach Yah'oshuvah declared as God by the Father), your stupid ᢭ĉ５鄀ࠗ讇Ơ word games are leading you down the road to nowhere fast.

If you were a true follower of Yeshua, you would not be wasting everyones time talking the perverted twistings of Scripture you do...ever failing to account for the complete context, and worse failing miserably not proclaiming the gospel of Jesus/God.

You wish to come off as some profound teacher, yet not once here have you yourself brought up the blood of God, the life giving spirit of the Christ, the historic relativity about the life of Yeshua in this, and how it applies as permanent Beriyth in the here and now.

James has made it clear in chapter three yours is the greater condemnation, and because of your failure toward equipting the saints with His gospel, Paul in Galatians 1.8-9 repeats you are already damned and to be avoided.

You mock because you cannot understand.

You cannot understand because of your unbelief regarding Yeshua.

You are nothing more than a wannabe windbag of hot air, stirring up dust which some mistake for smoke rising from the fire, daq.

...and, however you surmised yourself into your false impression that my hope is anything but toward your best is wrong.

There is no time to answer your other post, but it is going to be the same old same old back and forth volleys of piecemeal tidbits because that is your focus: swallowing the gimel because of missing the forest for the trees.

Hope to catch you later you heretical reprobate,

Timmy

So much for the Oriental mindset eh Timaeus? :lol:

FYI, you permanently warped stick,

One title Yesha'yahu declares signifies Yeshua is Father of eternity. The whole Bible reveals this: The Holy One is here, although not currently present.

Yeshayahu 9:5 CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm#

Not only do I know this is correct but I know WHY it is correct from the Hebrew text. And as it was already shown to both you and Charisma in the other thread, when it comes to the intent of the authors who quoted from this area of Scripture in the B'rit Chadashah writings, the portion of this passage which is foundational to your heresy is not found in the Septuagint. So then if you are going to take this from the unbelieving Masoretic Jews who compiled the Masoretic Text then why do you reject the Jewish understanding of it rendered into English? Hypocrite! first cast out the beam out of thine own eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of the eye of thy brother!

:hysterical:

toxon

06-18-2014, 05:22 AM

yet not once here have you yourself brought up the blood of God, the life giving spirit of the Christ, the historic relativity about the life of Yeshua in this, and how it applies as permanent Beriyth in the here and now.

James has made it clear in chapter three yours is the greater condemnation, and because of your failure toward equipting the saints with His gospel, Paul in Galatians 1.8-9 repeats you are already damned and to be avoided.

UH-OH, poor Timmy should have listened, consumed, and obeyed the teachings of the Master-Teacher Yeshua when he clearly tells all of his talmidim not to judge lest we be judged. Poor Timmy must not understand that when he judges others he immediately places himself right back under the Law. And now the Timmy has gone and made blatantly false accusations against his neighbor which are known to be false and misleading in addition to all the lashon hara he has committed from his heart to his fingertips. Does the distant memory of Timmy fail him once again? Why does it always fail him at the most opportune times, when it is to his own benefit, to save his own skin? Was it not stated in the Ten Words that we are not to bear false witness against our neighbor?

From the "Mesiras Nephesh" thread:

Hi there again Snakeboy,

i asked if it were ok to join you and you saidThe Timmy is mostly amusingly entertained with the lengths heretics will go to deceive others that they are legit. From inception of the primitive church until today, people who damn themselves work ceaselessly to find others they might deceive so that (in their thinking) they will not stand alone. Yet the lies the Twig DavidiaM with hir newfound Toxicon think are true have always been shunned, defamed, ostracized, and put out of sight from amomg the True Bretheren.

For your viewing pleasure, it seems the following passage will throw a wrench in the deviant perversion of both. If they ignore this, it proves they are not seeking the truth, but are only nitpicking about what they do not want to believe...and so, they just cannot understand.

It may be seen that they are (cherry]picking and choosing only certain passages, and then devising meaning suitable with their misunderstandings. They are just trying so hard to make themselves think their claims that God is not capable of superceeding even human flesh somehow seem sensible. Both of them have a severe mental disability called reprobation, seeing only what they want to see, ignoring and/or perverting what the true gospel message is so that they may spread their lies.

If either would just check themselves recognizing they are actually declaring (thier imaginary) salvation might someday be achieved by their own manimalistic efforts. Even as the Galatians ultimately fell from God's good grace they are doing even worse to themselves, as any who join that brood of vipers.

They are failing to accept God's free gift given through His own blood. This is God's zoe-life giving spirit in His blood.

They both cannot understand, and so neither can they recieve this mystery God has done to confound both the wonder seeker and human wisdom.

Facts are, Toxin has yet to answer back to me concerning the passages provided in response to the first part where hir notion of conflict over Yesha'yahu 63 was offered for discussion...and now assumes the onus must be Timmy's to answer back??? ...and. and. and Timmy also asked "what 'obvious discrepancies' "...yet no answer was given about that either.

Don't tell any one, bit it seems we jave a real genuine poster child for the Poser of the Year Award. Timmy may go so far as nominating this one to become a sole recipient for the "P.P.™" (Pontificated Perversities) Award portion at this years Dunderhead Sweepstakes. i don't know yet, but Timmy's noggin gears are cranking out something about these latest follies
...SO STAY TUNED FOR THIS SEASONS CLIFF:sFun_dangling:HANGER OF A FINALE.

If either persist and do not listen for too long, there is no debate or argument that would terminate their delusions.

So wha what if if if they be turned over to Satan--(a bit more severe than that mentioned by nothing)--so they shall learn not to blaspheme God in Christ or Higher beings some certain ppl consider figments of their imagination.

Seeing their foolery, it should come as no surprise God reserves the most severe judgement against such liars. It is one thing to be deceived and keep it to yourself, and something else entirely to disciple others to turn even further away from the truth.

Know that ignorance is not the source of unbelief.

You see unbelief is the source of ignorance.

Ok, here's that something the Twig and Toxin will either answer or prove they are just in it to bicker over lies they exhalt above The Truth:

Paul, while on one mission journey called together some from the church at Ephesus to provide final parting words. He gave direct indication over what false xians would herald by stating the very truth opposing it. Reading it now in light of what lies on this thread are being claimed as true, it seemed appropriate to re-quote what Tweedle Dum (the Twig DavidiaM) wouldn't or couldn't or thought it shouldn't answer the the first time it was brought up.(..and has yet to tell us what 2Peter 1.2-3 is about).

Paul's warning against deceived deceivers claiming their lies are truth
"I didn't shrink from proclaiming to you the whole counsel of God. Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

"I know that after my departure brutal wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock…and men from among yourselves will rise up with perverted doctrines to lure the disciples into following them. Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears.

"And now I commit you to God and to the message of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all who are sanctified.".

The message of God's grace that sets one apart to being worth it as one of His chosen, provisions of His inheritance are all made possible through this good news: the truth that now is the day of salvation through God pouring out His own blood onto whosoever will be redeemed.

To think I almost missed this because you did not specifically address me by my screen name! Tisk, tisk! And just as expected you have no answer for my initial question put forth to you, (or at least an admission of the error which is clear) before you decided to add yet another question of your own! Tisk, tisk! However I honestly cannot even discern a legitimate question at the end of your post: so how am I supposed to respond to a non-question put forth in the form of a non-question? And why should I answer you when you still have not answered my very first question which came before yours? You are the one forcing false doctrine from questionable one-time passages to begin with and such is the case with what you have quoted above from Acts. If it were a statement made by Yeshua then it would carry the weight on its own as a one-time statement, (if properly understood) but being that you quote Luke the author of the Acts and there is no other passage to support your inferences from that passage you are on thin ice from the start. In addition to those things there is clearly an identifiable dispute over this one-shot passage. Moreover it is not surprising how you accuse others of the very things you do yourself when you find obscure single-shot texts that are already known to be in dispute to support your spurious dogmata. :)

All of the following sources and legitimate Bible Translations are from outside myself:

Pulpit Commentary:
"Others (including the R.T.) take the reading of several good manuscripts, Διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ ἰδίου, and understand τοῦ ἰδίου to be an ellipse for τοῦ ἰδίου υἱοῦ, the phrase used in Romans 8:32; and so render it "which he purchased by the blood of his own Son." Οἱ ἰδίοι, his own, is used without a substantive in John 1:11. This clause is added to enhance the preciousness of the flock, and the responsibility of those who have the oversight of it."
http://biblehub.com/acts/20-28.htm

Acts 20:28 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
28. Prosechete heautois kai panti to poimnio, en ho humas to Pneuma to Hagion etheto episkopous poimainein ten ekklesian tou Theou, {*} hen periepoiesato dia tou haimatos tou idiou.{*}

1) The TUA and TPR Bible Translations which I sometimes quote are transliterations of the GNT-Morph Compilation Texts. They are not available free online but may be "agorazo-purchased" for a price unless by chance you have an acquaintance who owns a copy of them on CD from whom you might be able to "periepoiemai-acquire" them. :lol:

2) When found in the TUA and TPR Bible Translations this symbol "{*}" signifies that there is a discrepancy in the texts or with the rendering of the texts. A word, words, or even a sentence may be found in some of the less extant texts that was either not included in this translation or is noted because of the variant possible renderings because of an incomplete phrase or word such as is possibly the case with Acts 20:28. In short whenever this symbol arises it should immediately raise a red flag for further investigation, (for those who truly desire to find the Truth).

3) The word "periepoiesato" is "periepoiemai" which does not mean "to purchase" (which is the much more common "agorazo") but rather "periepoiemai" is a compound word meaning "to make all around oneself" as in "to acquire" unto oneself. This is also critical for TaNaK understanding because not only is YHWH our inheritance, (for those who are truly priests under Yeshua our High Priest) but the people are likewise the inheritance of YHWH! There are many passages which state this to be the case, (for example see Exodus 15:17, Exodus 34:9, Ezekiel 44:28).

Original Strong's Ref. #4046
Romanized peripoieomai
Pronounced per-ee-poy-eh'-om-ahee
middle voice from GSN4012 and GSN4160; to make around oneself, i.e. acquire (buy):
KJV--purchase.

If Luke simply desired to write "purchase" then why did he not simply use the much more common "agorazo"?

Original Strong's Ref. #59
Romanized agorazo
Pronounced ag-or-ad'-zo
from GSN0058; properly, to go to market, i.e. (by implication) to purchase; specially, to redeem:
KJV--buy, redeem.

Paul employs "agorazo" in other places to mean "purchased" or bought in similar contexts:

1 Corinthians 6:20 KJV
20. For ye are bought [GSN#0059 agorazo] with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:22-23 KJV
22. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23. Ye are bought [GSN#0059 agorazo] with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

2 Peter 2:1 LIT (Literal Bible with Vertical Strong's Ref. #s)
1.
|1096| there were
|1161| But
|2532| also
|5578| false prophets
|1722| among
|3588| the
|2992| people,
|5613| as
|2532| also
|1722| among
|5213| you
|2071| there will be
|5572| false teachers,
|3748| who
|3919| will secretly bring in
|0139| heresies
|0684| of destruction,
|2532| even
|3588| the
|0059| having bought [agorazo]
|0846| them
|1203| Master [despotes]
|0720| denying,
|1863| bringing on
|1438| themselves
|5031| swift
|0684| destruction.

Original Strong's Ref. #1203
Romanized despotes
Pronounced des-pot'-ace
perhaps from GSN1210 and posis (a husband); an absolute ruler ("despot"):
KJV--Lord, master.

2 Peter 2:1 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
1. And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master [GSN#1203 despotes] who bought [GSN#0059 agorazo] them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

And for those who would protest saying that they read "Lord" instead of "Master" in their favorite translation of the above passage that is simply not what "despotes" means and Kurios is not in any of the Greek Texts. The reason I quote the YLT is because it is rendered from the Textus Receptus like as is the KJV.

However, as already stated previously here in this thread for those who were pretending they were paying no attention: The Father YHWH owns everything including your blood, my blood, and certainly the blood of his own Son Yeshua. This is exactly why Luke does not employ "agorazo" in Acts 20:28 because it is not a direct "purchase", (which purchase Yeshua made through himself with his own blood) but rather the transaction toward the Father is an "acquisition" through the purchase made directly by his own Son. Therefore the Father acquired us through the freewill offering of the blood of his own, [Son] just as the Acts 20:28 passage states:

Acts 20:28 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
28. 'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Acts 20:28 NJB (New Jerusalem Bible)
28. `Be on your guard for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you the guardians, to feed the Church of God which he bought with the blood of his own Son.

Acts 20:28 RSV (Revised Standard Version)
28. Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

Acts 20:28 NET Bible
28. Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

This is clear and direct evidence that Luke took special care to make sure that the reader be not deceived into thinking the "Jesus is God the Father" and that is the very reason why it is written the way it is. :yes:

Since the Timmy feels so self-righteously justified that he can not only judge his neighbor, but also bear false witness against him, let the Timmy know and understand what Law he has now placed himself under until he repents of his filthy deeds from his heart, mind, lips, and fingertips:

Deuteronomy 5:17-20 KJV
17. Thou shalt not kill.
18. Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19. Neither shalt thou steal.
20. Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deuteronomy 19:16-21 KJV
16. If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17. Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18. And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19. Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20. And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21. And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

As I said oh mighty one the Timmy; sorry for your left handed luck. Likewise sorry to hear all of those things you have forecast against me like "burn baby burn", (to name just one evil thing) because I surmise that those things are going to hurt you much more than myself. That is indeed the way it works in the Spirit world because Torah is not done away or abolished. :)

PS ~ Oh ancient one, sorry to have to jog your short term memory all at the same time but this post is from yesterday right here in this thread from the previous page where I brought the topic up once more with your comrade in arms:

Neither do you understand Charisma because you have allowed an anthropos-man, (whom you imply is your "instructor") to deceive you. I owe neither you nor "the Timmy" anything more than what I have already provided from the Scripture in two large threads. You now have two threads full of Scripture which has demolished every one of your false claims and neither you nor the Timmy has even attempted an answer to any one of the points made because you are not willing to follow context. All that the two of you have done over and over again is to deny, deny, deny, and ignore, ignore, ignore, and of course "the Timmy" throws in his flaming rituals full of false accusations and condemnations hoping that his god will show himself and destroy me on the spot, (for how long will he continue to cut himself?). Even this very thread and what is posted on the previous page at the bottom the both of you have ignored. You don't get it: your entire foundation is already laid waste and become a burning pile of ruins. Not because of me but because of what is written. The Timmy has either ignored or skipped over the surface texts and gone straight into drash and sod which is always and invariably a recipe for colossal disaster. His and your foundations are built upon sand. Yeshua did indeed purchase us with his own blood but as it was shown to you in the other thread he purchased us unto our God, (Revelation 5:9). Why should I answer any more of your questions when you have not answered any of what I have presented from the Scripture? It is not me or my own words the two of your are denying.

If you do not even take the time to read what others have put forth here in this forum then why should I believe that you would go to the site in my care for any other reason but in hopes that you might find some dirt to kick up and use against me? Perhaps that is why you do not understand because it appears you have no love for anyone but the Timmy and the "chosen few" he chooses to surround himself with. :(

toxon

06-18-2014, 08:08 AM

Just noticed you added this to the end of your post on the previous page Timmy:

p.s. You will never truly understand the gospels until you are walking in the regenerative experience of Yah. If you do not receive this cut-straight you cannot ever get it right: overcoming in life by God's own blood, the word of your martyrdom, and not loving your life unto the death.

So, all this useless yada yada yada...quibbling over words, is the gambit of a simpleton wannabe poser who cannot recognize themself in reality being a liar and a thief.

Since Yah was already brought up to you on Page#4 of this thread in Post#64000 perhaps this is now become the $64000 question? Why did you not answer to what was said about Yah? Are you afraid of what you will find if you dig too deep into the Scripture? It seems the most fearful thing for one such as yourself would likely be finding out that you have been wrong for so long and even worse what might happen to you in The End for allowing yourself to be used as a pawn to deceive so many people:

Moreover what gives you the right to reject the Prophet Isaiah and claim that the words written in the passage I quoted are not true? Who are you to call Isaiah a "rebel against Yah"? And who is Yah according to you? Do you also believe that Yeshua is Yah? If so then king David also disagrees with you and that also is clearly shown in the Psalms. Will you label and slander king David also a "praying rebel against Yah" if what I state is shown to be the Truth? The New Covenant writers clearly quote David as prophesying the words of Messiah and speaking of Messiah when Messiah himself worships Yah who is the Father YHWH. Yah is YHWH and Yeshua is the Son of Yah who is YHWH. This can be proven and shown so it really matters not what the Timmy thinks in his vain imagination because the Timmy has nothing from holy writ to support his claims.

Golgotha:

Psalm 118 Restored Name KJV
118:1 O give thanks unto YHWH; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
118:2 Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
118:3 Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
118:4 Let them now that fear YHWH say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
118:5 I called upon YAH in distress: YAH answered me, and set me in a large place.
118:6 YHWH is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
118:7 YHWH taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.
118:8 It is better to trust in YHWH than to put confidence in man.
118:9 It is better to trust in YHWH than to put confidence in princes.
118:10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH will I destroy them.
118:11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.
118:12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.
118:13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but YHWH helped me.
118:14 YAH is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
118:15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of YHWH doeth valiantly.
118:16 The right hand of YHWH is exalted: the right hand of YHWH doeth valiantly.
118:17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of YAH.
118:18 YAH hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise YHWH:
118:20 This gate of YHWH, into which the righteous shall enter.
118:21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
118:23 This is YHWH's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
118:24 This is the day which YHWH hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
118:25 Save now, I beseech thee, O YHWH: O YHWH, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
118:26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of YHWH: we have blessed you out of the house of YHWH.
118:27 El is YHWH, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.
118:28 Thou art my El, and I will praise thee: thou art my Elohim, I will exalt thee.
118:29 O give thanks unto YHWH; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/psa118.htm

:pop2:

Timmy

06-19-2014, 08:02 AM

statikos toxin,

You are only setting yourself up for a bigger fall through expounding your ignorant blatherings is only making a way for you feel like an idiot when all is said and done.

Timmy

toxon

06-19-2014, 09:24 AM

statikos toxin,

You are only setting yourself up for a bigger fall through expounding your ignorant blatherings is only making a way for you feel like an idiot when all is said and done.

Timmy

Yet another prophecy is fulfilled! (and the leopard still cannot change his spots!) :lmbo:

Yah is YHWH and Yeshua is the Son of Yah who is YHWH. This can be proven and shown so it really matters not what the Timmy thinks in his vain imagination because the Timmy has nothing from holy writ to support his claims.

And does the Timmy even make an attempt to answer the $64000 question? ABSOLUTELY NOT! :lol:
Are you vying for top spot in the championship round in your own "Dunderhead Sweepstakes"? :D

This simply is not humorous enough for me anymore so I suppose this thread is done too. However, there is another thread where "the Timmy" and company have been invited to answer on-topic at will, question is will the great Timmy have the will or not he will?

My Father is greater than I (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?5868-My-Father-is-greater-than-I)

Everyone is surely waiting to hear from the magnificent Timmy and Crew.
Looking forward to your Scripture-packed replies there . . . :rolleyes:

Timmy

06-19-2014, 02:32 PM

Toxin,

Mock on.

For all your words, you are only building a greater case against your own misconfabricated interpolations.

Mock on simpleton.

You have been warned about what shall be shown against both the Twig DavidiaM and yourself, you warped stick.

It is only time costrants that currently limit the Timmy's response.

Blather on slobbering all over the place.

Mock what you do not understand.

You cannot conceive how you lie against The Truth because the truth is not in you...

You have been advised to search the Scriptures yourself to see that what your own high minded haughtiness flat out denies.

You chatter on as though some authority, and assume because you use books defining words you have the last say.

You oppose what you do not understand and have repeatedly written out your error for the whole world wide web to see.

Oh, mitey one, wise in your own eyes and hero onto yourself, continue lifting up yourself and proclaiming your shortsighted lies.

You do not understand.
Having not understood you are shortsighted.
This is the basis of your lies.
You choose to remain ignorant looking no further.
Lifted up in your satanic pride, you would rather argue than hear.

Quick to speak, slow to listen, and easily upset are you.

Because you mock what you cannot understand, you blind yourself and your overflow of words show you cannot hear.

Your little apple cart shall be overturned and spilled all over soon enough.

Mock on because it will not last long.

David M

06-19-2014, 07:35 PM

It is only time costrants that currently limit the Timmy's response.Actually Timmy, the time you have spent writing your replies, which give no scriptural answers to the questions you have been asked, could have been better spent giving short precise answers to those questions.

Instead, you continue to do the same posturing, which has become tedious and boring. All you can do is roar like a lion without any teeth. You make threats as if that should make us worried.

We shall all be dead by the time you come out with your great work, as if it will contain something that no one has ever thought of except you. Either we shall die waiting, or you will die before your work is completed and then we will never know the great work of Timmy that never was.

You should heed your own advice and crawl away and work on your tome until it is finished and then come back and present it. Then we can scrutinize your work to see if it makes sense and is backed by scripture.

Alternatively, you could save a lot of your own time and just answer the one topic started in the new thread. In that way we can deal with one point at a time and keep the posts short.

Will Timmy reform, or do we wait for more of the same?

Toodle pip

David

toxon

06-19-2014, 10:07 PM

Actually Timmy, the time you have spent writing your replies, which give no scriptural answers to the questions you have been asked, could have been better spent giving short precise answers to those questions.

Instead, you continue to do the same posturing, which has become tedious and boring. All you can do is roar like a lion without any teeth. You make threats as if that should make us worried.

We shall all be dead by the time you come out with your great work, as if it will contain something that no one has ever thought of except you. Either we shall die waiting, or you will die before your work is completed and then we will never know the great work of Timmy that never was.

You should heed your own advice and crawl away and work on your tome until it is finished and then come back and present it. Then we can scrutinize your work to see if it makes sense and is backed by scripture.

Alternatively, you could save a lot of your own time and just answer the one topic started in the new thread. In that way we can deal with one point at a time and keep the posts short.

Will Timmy reform, or do we wait for more of the same?

Toodle pip

David

:lol: Hi David, what is "Toodle pip"? Anyways there may be one timmy who might be a brother but simply does not yet realize it because "the Timmy" has him locked up in his prisonhouse, (beware the anthropon-man-faced). When the Son of man comes then little timmy will divide his dominion like a shepherd divides the sheep and the goats: the little timmy will place the sheep of his household to his right and the goats of his outer bounds to his left, (there shall be five in one house divided: three against two, and two against three, which are likened unto ten virgins). Then the little timmy will say to the goats on his left: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the fire of the aionion prepared for the devil and his messengers!" And from that time The Timmy will no more vex him in all the habitations of his dominion, (if indeed little timmy overcomes in the time appointed of the Father). In that day shall the adamah-soil of the heart of little timmy be turned unto the Father, and there shall be a great mourning, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddo: and all of his land shall mourn. As for the opus magnum of "the Timmy" it is not possible for him to nail it all down in one fell swoop. If real scholars cannot nail down the subject matter in four hundred page manuscripts and books then how can the magnificent Timmy expect to nail it down here in the middle an internet forum thread? Such an exercise would be complete futility if not for the fact that at least the little timmy of the two has already admitted he is learning as he proceeds. So you see that while he claims he is getting through to me, and that it is me who is coming around to his opinionated opinions, in reality the cold hard facts are that he has delayed, delayed, delayed, since my arrival here while his original intent for presenting his opus magnanamus never had anything to do with me to begin with because I was not here at the time he made his grandios announcement. Likewise, as I said to him already, I will not be responding to his opiate magmanama if he proceeds to bury it in the other mega thread where no one will read it anyways. If indeed it is his magnum opus treatise to end all debate on the topic then surely he would prefer to start a new thread and let his masterpiece stand alone for everyone to read and critique. If the magnificent Timmy buries his so-called masterpiece in the middle of the other mega thread it is only because on the inside he is truly hoping that no one outside of his own crew will pay much if any attention to it.

toodle loo, hippity hoppity pip, yada, yada, yada . . . :)