Moshiach and Messianic Prophecy

[throwback]

For a while now I have been wondering how many, if any, Messianic Prophecies they actually are. I am virtually convinced that much of what NT writers claimed to have been prophetic was in fact not, but I now wonder about the Jewish expectations for Moshiach as well.

An example of an accepted Messianic prophecy that I find to be questionable is found in Micah 4. According to Jewish thought, this text is a prophecy that says that Mochiach, a man anointed by G-d would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and bring about a time of world peace. After reading over the book of Micah a few times, it now seems that the beginning of chapter 4 thru verse 8, is a continuation of the context that began in chapter 3, verse 1. Its theme repeats what was communicated in chapters 1 and 2 and it gets summarized again in verses 9-14 only to be re-repeated starting in chapter 5, verse 1!

[throwback]

Also, most consider Isaiah 11 to be a messianic prophecy, but in light of the full context that text is a part of, starting in chapter 7, verse 1, through the end of chapter 12; is that really the case?

[Timmy]

Hello there throwback:icon_hello:

This thread was immediately seen with your first text, and so, the LORD was asked, "What is throwback up to?" and "Should i respond?".

Your second post was also entertained in the same way, though only noted right now.




"...For it is written,
'I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.'

Where is the wise man?
Where is the scribe?
Where is the debater of this age?
Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?..."



Ha'Mashiach Yeshua has stated Tanakh is uqualitatively unequivically speaking concerning Him.

His specifically chosen talmudim who wrote Ha'Brit Hadasha refer to these written words as: the words the Christ, the word of the Lord, the Word of God, and so on.



The whole Bible can be compared as though a vine.

Those not intentionally taking part in the life in the vine stand and fall dazed and confused. All the note is only on the surface: the vine and branches that are part of it, the leaves, and the fruit. As well, these only see what they see from the place where they stand looking. So, every one of them has a different view from a different angle. Noneof them can see anything on the opposite side of this vine, and have a quite limited view of what is visible if trying to see what it appears to be looking from the ground up. None of them see the root. None of them can see what sustains the root.

So, these onlookers have all kinds of various opinions about the vine from different perspectives. Some will even touch and feel different parts of the vine to learn more about it. Still, none of them have a complete picture.

What extremely few of these realize and cannot see is that even though they see what is above the surface, it's root is equal in length.

Most all of these remain clueless about the ground this vine is found in.



As well, the Bible is one comprehensive whole, and the best way to begin learning to understand is to begin and go through the pages of John.


"...The words of the wise are as goads,
and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies,
which are given from one Sepherd..."







~Bible quotes (in blue) are extracts from 1 Corinthians chapter 1, and Ecclesiastes 12, respectively.

[David M]

Hello Throwback


For a while now I have been wondering how many, if any, Messianic Prophecies they actually are. I am virtually convinced that much of what NT writers claimed to have been prophetic was in fact not, but I now wonder about the Jewish expectations for Moshiach as well.

An example of an accepted Messianic prophecy that I find to be questionable is found in Micah 4. According to Jewish thought, this text is a prophecy that says that Mochiach, a man anointed by G-d would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and bring about a time of world peace. After reading over the book of Micah a few times, it now seems that the beginning of chapter 4 thru verse 8, is a continuation of the context that began in chapter 3, verse 1. Its theme repeats what was communicated in chapters 1 and 2 and it gets summarized again in verses 9-14 only to be re-repeated starting in chapter 5, verse 1!There are those who say there are hundreds of verses in the OT that are references to Christ. I would not argue with that as some do (especially the skeptics).

The first Messianic verse is Gen 3:15. The principle of God sacrificing an animal to provide a covering for sin and in the case Adam and Eve an animal skin to clothe Adam and Eve, this is pointing us to consider how Jesus has been sacrificed to be our covering for sin. Then you have the example of Melchizadek presenting wine and bread to Abraham. We are not privy to the conversation that went on, but as Jesus said (John 8:56); Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad and so we have Jesus asking his disciples to remember him in the partaking of bread and wine (Luke 22:9);this do in remembrance of me.

When you consider all the different types, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David etc and all the different examples and ways in which Jesus in identified in the OT, then we do have a large number of verses resulting in the hundreds I expect. The OT was pointing to the coming of Jesus, like the Law given to Moses was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal 3:24). That is why I see Jesus does pre-exist in the OT before he was born and brought into existence, because all the verses are pointing forward in time and not to someone supposed to exist at the time.

All the best
David

[throwback]

There are those who say there are hundreds of verses in the OT that are references to Christ. I would not argue with that as some do (especially the skeptics).

The first Messianic verse is Gen 3:15. The principle of God sacrificing an animal to provide a covering for sin and in the case Adam and Eve an animal skin to clothe Adam and Eve, this is pointing us to consider how Jesus has been sacrificed to be our covering for sin. Then you have the example of Melchizadek presenting wine and bread to Abraham. We are not privy to the conversation that went on, but as Jesus said (John 8:56); Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad and so we have Jesus asking his disciples to remember him in the partaking of bread and wine (Luke 22:9);this do in remembrance of me.

When you consider all the different types, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David etc and all the different examples and ways in which Jesus in identified in the OT, then we do have a large number of verses resulting in the hundreds I expect. The OT was pointing to the coming of Jesus, like the Law given to Moses was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal 3:24). That is why I see Jesus does pre-exist in the OT before he was born and brought into existence, because all the verses are pointing forward in time and not to someone supposed to exist at the time.


David, this sounds like an attempt at revisionist history by the writers of the NT as well as current believers in Jesus being the Annointed One. A major flaw in that line of thinking is that it ignores the problems of the ways Jesus DID NOT meet the Old Testament expectations. Having to resort to lifting verses like Daniel 7:14 and others out of context to make Jesus a better fit is not a good look for Christians.

Aside from the issue/question of the NT Messiah not fully matching what Old Testament delivers; there's also the bigger issue of what it is exactly that is delivered in the OT regarding the Messiah or Messiahs. The point of this thread was to explore texts like Ezekiel chapter 33 thru 37, Isaiah 11, and Micah 4 to see if they are in fact pointing to a messiah figure or whether those texts convey a totally different message that's contrary to the Messianic expectations of the religious.

[David M]

Hello Throwback

David, this sounds like an attempt at revisionist history by the writers of the NT as well as current believers in Jesus being the Annointed One. A major flaw in that line of thinking is that it ignores the problems of the ways Jesus DID NOT meet the Old Testament expectations. Having to resort to lifting verses like Daniel 7:14 and others out of context to make Jesus a better fit is not a good look for Christians.We do have the advantage of hindsight. If you put yourself back into the situation of the Israelites when then had their revelations from God, I suppose it was difficult for them to see the long-term outworking of those things. For example, when Moses told the people (Deut 18:15); The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; When do you think people expected that to happen? Their problem was that they were not listening properly. The Jews have been expecting a Messiah, but perhaps, not looking for the Prophet spoken by Moses. Jesus had to point out that the people had not heard what Moses and the prophets had told them (Luke 16:31); If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Aside from the issue/question of the NT Messiah not fully matching what Old Testament delivers; there's also the bigger issue of what it is exactly that is delivered in the OT regarding the Messiah or Messiahs. The point of this thread was to explore texts like Ezekiel chapter 33 thru 37, Isaiah 11, and Micah 4 to see if they are in fact pointing to a messiah figure or whether those texts convey a totally different message that's contrary to the Messianic expectations of the religious.The problem that is apparent to me is; deciding which prophecies took place in the lifetime of those hearing the message and those prophecies that were a long time in the future. The Jews still expect their Messiah to come and we have to ask; what are the circumstances that will make that happen? The Jews also believe in the promises made to Abraham and that has not been fulfilled.

I suppose instead of trying to predict when prophecy will take place, we should be resigned to the fact that it will take place when God has determined it.

In the meantime, we have to live our life in the way God wants us to live and accept that God will keep his word. Psalm 46:10; Be still, and know that I am God:

All the best
David

[Timmy]

A major flaw in both of your thinkings is your rationalizations based on each of your particular singular line while ignoring the True Vine.

[throwback]

If you put yourself back into the situation of the Israelites when then had their revelations from God, I suppose it was difficult for them to see the long-term outworking of those things. For example, when Moses told the people (Deut 18:15); The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; When do you think people expected that to happen? Their problem was that they were not listening properly.

Why would the supposed audience to Moses' declaration "hear" the message the revisionist way? They had no reason to, the context gives the reader no reason to, and let's know ignore that extreme future fulfillment is a charactoristic POST OT readers add into the texts. The Deut 18 passage actually makes a lot more sense historically if it was speaking about Joshua as opposed to NT Joshua, I mean Jesus.

[Timmy]

Why would the supposed audience to Moses' declaration "hear" the message the revisionist way? All but two did not believe even what Moshe spoke plainly ...and so these unbelievers all died in the wilderness never receiving the promise.


They had no reason to, the context gives the reader no reason to, and let's know ignore that extreme future fulfillment is a charactoristic POST OT readers add into the texts. The Deut 18 passage actually makes a lot more sense historically if it was speaking about Joshua as opposed to NT Joshua, I mean Jesus.Acccording to your faithlessness be it unto you, as if this were not already the case.

BTW, the root of revisionism is exactly what you are doing.

[David M]

Why would the supposed audience to Moses' declaration "hear" the message the revisionist way? They had no reason to, the context gives the reader no reason to, and let's know ignore that extreme future fulfillment is a charactoristic POST OT readers add into the texts. The Deut 18 passage actually makes a lot more sense historically if it was speaking about Joshua as opposed to NT Joshua, I mean Jesus.
The words were left on record not just for that generation, but for all the generations to follow leading up to Christ and afterwards. It has been from that time and even now that the Jews await their Messiah. We have to ask; what circumstances do the Jews expect that will make them call on the name of their God and for the Messiah to come?

Moses is speaking specifically of "The Prophet", we are to hear the words of this prophet for the message of the Gospel that he delivered.

Moses words were; "ye shall hear him". The word "shall" can mean; something of "planned intent", or the word "must" could be used. It cannot be argued against, that we must "hear him". If we do not hear the words of Jesus, then we miss out on the opportunity that God is offering us.

(John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

[Charisma]

For a while now I have been wondering how many, if any, Messianic Prophecies they actually are. I am virtually convinced that much of what NT writers claimed to have been prophetic was in fact not, but I now wonder about the Jewish expectations for Moshiach as well.

An example of an accepted Messianic prophecy that I find to be questionable is found in Micah 4. According to Jewish thought, this text is a prophecy that says that Mochiach, a man anointed by G-d would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and bring about a time of world peace. After reading over the book of Micah a few times, it now seems that the beginning of chapter 4 thru verse 8, is a continuation of the context that began in chapter 3, verse 1. Its theme repeats what was communicated in chapters 1 and 2 and it gets summarized again in verses 9-14 only to be re-repeated starting in chapter 5, verse 1!


Hi throwback,

No doubt if you listen to the unbelievers descended from Jacob, it is easy enough to 'miss' all the references to Messiah in their scriptures. But that is not how those who were watching for the Messiah 'saw' Him when He was revealed. In fact, there are so many pointers which enabled that generation to identify Him unequivocally, that Jesus is quoted as saying, '19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.' John 3. In John chapter 8, He is face to face with religious leaders who point blank refuse to acknowledge who He is. But that is not because they didn't know. It is because they chose not to.

Think about it. From a very early stage they plotted His death. They were completely unscrupulous in the end, using money from the Temple Treasury to pay Judas to betray Him, and then hypocritically refusing to take the money back because it was 'blood money'. Their religious integrity was superficial.

But the people whose hearts were towards the word of God to their generation, received Him, left everything and followed Him, and eventually - after His resurrection - were dramatically changed from a group who were too afraid to go outside for fear of 'the Jews', to a team of individually empowered men and women who could go outside into a crowd of foreigners declaring the wonderful works of God and His goodness to the bemused strangers.

The Messiah had promised them power, and He kept His word - the fulfilment of part of Joel's prophecy.

Joel 2
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten,
the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm,
my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied,
and praise the name of the Lord your God,
that hath dealt wondrously with you:
and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the Lord your God, and none else:
and my people shall never be ashamed.



28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
in those days will I pour out my spirit.

(Notice who had sent his 'great army' amongst them?



A few short years later, these sent ones (apostles) were quoting Amos.

Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they ...'


If your heart is genuinely searching for the Person of the Messiah in the scriptures, He is there from Genesis 1 all the way through.

John 5:Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

As He was speaking to unbelievers, He followed His statement with








40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.













You have to understand that there is a principle at work when God is speaking, which very powerfully works in those who are listening.

Listening is different from reading objectively. Objectivity protects you from the message. Then there is nothing to believe into.

[throwback]

The funny thing about the human "heart" is that it is easy deceived by and often quite wrong about what is true and real due to its own biased viewpoint. If you want to find a message in a writing that has no messege, the mind has a way of creating one for you. That's why people that have been conditioned to believe in whatever, can look at anything to reaffirm and confirm their perceptions.

As far as what the OT scripture were ACTUALLY messianic references, we have no concensus. I am of the mindset (at this time), that both NT Christians and Torah observing Jews are off base as it pertains to their expectations related to Moshiach. From the scriptures, it appears that the messiah figure (assuming on 1 individual is being referenced) was to assume the role shortly after the Babylonian captivity, not 100s or 1000s of years later.

[duxrow]

:yo: Hey Throwback, Is yours a Question of timing?
The timing "to build Jerusalem" would start after Cyrus ordered the restoration, Ezra 1:1 -- right? Then lots of time before Jesus declared himself the messias in John 4:26.

Dan9:25 KJV "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Messiah and Messias (anointed - H4899)
Twice in Daniel: 9:25, 26 , and twice in John: 1:41, 4:25 :Date_Setting:

[Charisma]

Hi throwback,


not 100s or 1000s of years later.

There is not a thousand years between the sacking of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar's army, and the coming of Christ.

The following website is useful, although not perfectly accurate, and will help you follow the biblical narrative with greater ease.

http://bibleworldhistory.com

[throwback]

Hi throwback,



There is not a thousand years between the sacking of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar's army, and the coming of Christ.

The following website is useful, although not perfectly accurate, and will help you follow the biblical narrative with greater ease.

http://bibleworldhistory.com

100s of years from the Babylonian captivity to the time of Jesus and 1000s of years from the captivity to the "millennial fulfillments" many await.