40 days/nights

[derekkye]

According to Mark, Luke, and Mathew Jesus was led into the wilderness for 40 days/nights after the Spirit of God descended upon Him. However, John mentions no such thing. Specifically, according to John the first thing Jesus appears to do is gather His disciples, and on the third day (I'm assuming after Jesus received the Spirit of God) there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee which Jesus attended. These are conflicting accounts. Consequently, I put all gospels aside, save the gospel of John. There are only two books of the New Testament that I adhere to - Gospel of John, and Revelation. I know there probably isn't a theologian in the world who'd agree with me, but then again theologians are taught by man and not God. :)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

According to Mark, Luke, and Mathew Jesus was led into the wilderness for 40 days/nights after the Spirit of God descended upon Him. However, John mentions no such thing. Specifically, according to John the first thing Jesus appears to do is gather His disciples, and on the third day (I'm assuming after Jesus received the Spirit of God) there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee which Jesus attended. These are conflicting accounts. Consequently, I put all gospels aside, save the gospel of John. There are only two books of the New Testament that I adhere to - Gospel of John, and Revelation. I know there probably isn't a theologian in the world who'd agree with me, but then again theologians are taught by man and not God. :)

Hey there derekkye,

Facinating position. Why in the world would you believe those two books if you reject all the others?

Richard

[derekkye]

Revelation 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them WHICH SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES, AND ARE NOT, AND HAST FOUND THEM LIARS.

Who do we know who says they are an apostle?

With help from God I see Paul as one referred to in Revelation 2:2. Now how many churches do you think would welcome me if I proclaim that Paul is a liar?

I'm reminded of an OT story - God ordered a slaughter of the people, and He said to start the slaughter at His sanctuary.

Isn't because of Paul that people believe they don't have to keep the commandments?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Revelation 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them WHICH SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES, AND ARE NOT, AND HAST FOUND THEM LIARS.

Who do we know who says they are an apostle?

With help from God I see Paul as one referred to in Revelation 2:2. Now how many churches do you think would welcome me if I proclaim that Paul is a liar?

I'm reminded of an OT story - God ordered a slaughter of the people, and He said to start the slaughter at His sanctuary.

Isn't because of Paul that people believe they don't have to keep the commandments?
Hey there derekkye,

I understand your point, but my question was why do you believe any of the NT books if you reject all but two of them?

Richard

[derekkye]

Hey there derekkye,

I understand your point, but my question was why do you believe any of the NT books if you reject all but two of them?

Richard


When I decided to reject Paul's writings I didn't decide to reject all NT books. Instead I became suspect of all NT books, and the gospel of John and Revelation are the only two NT books that I'm not willing to discard. There may be a few more NT books that are valid, but if so I would not be missing any vital information.

I think there is a key to test whether or not a message is from God. I am currently in search of such a key. A vision of characters and their values in 2001 is a part of the driving force. I've had a few revelations since then that keep me "looking".

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When I decided to reject Paul's writings I didn't decide to reject all NT books. Instead I became suspect of all NT books, and the gospel of John and Revelation are the only two NT books that I'm not willing to discard. There may be a few more NT books that are valid, but if so I would not be missing any vital information.

I think there is a key to test whether or not a message is from God. I am currently in search of such a key. A vision of characters and their values in 2001 is a part of the driving force. I've had a few revelations since then that keep me "looking".
What is it about Revelation and John's Gospel that convinced you they were from God?

[joel]

When I decided to reject Paul's writings

derekkye,

I may have missed something....so I am asking for a clarification........why did you choose to reject Paul's writings?

Joel

[deb]

Revelation 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them WHICH SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES, AND ARE NOT, AND HAST FOUND THEM LIARS.
Who do we know who says they are an apostle?
With help from God I see Paul as one referred to in Revelation 2:2. Now how many churches do you think would welcome me if I proclaim that Paul is a liar?
I'm reminded of an OT story - God ordered a slaughter of the people, and He said to start the slaughter at His sanctuary.
Isn't because of Paul that people believe they don't have to keep the commandments?
This is so very interesting to me. It is because of Paul that I know how to keep the commandments in righteousness. What really has hooked me into this thread is that it was Paul who brought the gospel to the Synagogue of Ephesus. He had just shaved his head upon completion of a Nazarene Vow then came into the Synagogue with a couple (recently from Rome) who were Messianic Hebrews. After Paul (Saul) spoke to the congregation they invited him to stay but he could not. However the Messianic couple stayed in the city to teach and proclaimed Y'shua. A good Jew from Alexandria came while Paul was traveling. He had been instructed in "the way of the Lord" and spoke in Ephesus with fervor. But he only knew about John the Baptizer, the forerunner of Messiah. Because of Ephesus I see that Paul is a Torah observant Hebrew who serves the Messiah.

Your passage comes from a letter to the Ephesians so I am very anxious for you to give your answer to RAM. I keep looking for it. Help me understand. I too love the Revelation and the gospel by the same hand.

[derekkye]

with regards to Paul

Q - How many apostles of the lamb are there?

A - Unequivocally 12, and only 12 - just as there are 12 sons of Jacob

I now leave it as an exercise for you to name the 12

Revelation 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So I ask you do you think Paul's name will be there?

In the book of revelation you have God's two witnesses giving their testimony. In contrast you have the beast and the false prophet doing their thing. This same principle can be applied to when Jesus gave His testimony. Someone of the same time was giving their false testimony in my opinion.

[derekkye]

derekkye,

I may have missed something....so I am asking for a clarification........why did you choose to reject Paul's writings?

Joel

II Corinthians 12:16 - But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

vs

Revelation 14:4,5 - These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found NO GUILE: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

it's easy for me to see how Paul is of the devil - what more can I do?

[deb]

with regards to Paul
Q - How many apostles of the lamb are there?
A - Unequivocally 12, and only 12 - just as there are 12 sons of Jacob
I now leave it as an exercise for you to name the 12
Revelation 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
So I ask you do you think Paul's name will be there?
In the book of revelation you have God's two witnesses giving their testimony. In contrast you have the beast and the false prophet doing their thing. This same principle can be applied to when Jesus gave His testimony. Someone of the same time was giving their false testimony in my opinion.
I mean no disrespect, but I am actually unclear on who #12 is (though I do suspect that it is Paul) in the same way I am unclear on who the 2nd witness of Revelation 11 is. Judas of Iscariot forfeit his position. Matthias is dicey because he was called by committee before Pentecost. Paul however was called by the Lord Himself to be an apostle, but (for you) he is not in John's gospel. He exhibited the appropriate signs, power and authority with great humility.

edit to ask, have you read 2 Corinthians in context?

[derekkye]

I mean no disrespect, but I am actually unclear on who #12 is (though I do suspect that it is Paul) in the same way I am unclear on who the 2nd witness of Revelation 11 is. Judas of Iscariot forfeit his position. Matthias is dicey because he was called by committee before Pentecost. Paul however was called by the Lord Himself to be an apostle, but (for you) he is not in John's gospel. He exhibited the appropriate signs, power and authority with great humility.

edit to ask, have you read 2 Corinthians in context?


Aren't the two witnesses of Revelation none other than Father & Son?

Paul however was called by the Lord Himself to be an apostle, but (for you) he is not in John's gospel. He exhibited the appropriate signs, power and authority with great humility.

Read about the signs exhibited by the beast and false prophet in the book of revelation. How convincing do you suspect they will be?

[deb]

Aren't the two witnesses of Revelation none other than Father & Son?
If the Father and Son are the two witnesses then please answer these questions.

1. Revelation 11:3
Who is giving the Father and Son their power?

2. Revelation 11:4
Who is the Lord that these two stand before?

3. Revelation 11:7
How is it that the Beast is able to kill the Father and Son?

4. Revelation 11:11
Who is the God who returns the breath of Life to the Father and Son?

5. Revelation 11:12
Who voices the powerful command for them to "come up here" from heaven?

It is actually of far more intrerest to me that you answer RAM's questions then mine but I am asking anyway because I am troubled at your conclusion.

(on Paul's calling)
Read about the signs exhibited by the beast and false prophet in the book of revelation. How convincing do you suspect they will be?

You would have to accept at least the testimony of the book of Acts to know this, but I'll present it anyway. Nowhere does Paul bring glory to himself, always to God the Father of my Lord Jesus. The Beast will only put effort into glorification of himself. That is how I know that Paul was not the beast.

[Brother Les]

derekkye




40 days/nights

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According to Mark, Luke, and Mathew Jesus was led into the wilderness for 40 days/nights after the Spirit of God descended upon Him. However, John mentions no such thing. Specifically, according to John the first thing Jesus appears to do is gather His disciples, and on the third day (I'm assuming after Jesus received the Spirit of God) there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee which Jesus attended. These are conflicting accounts. Consequently, I put all gospels aside, save the gospel of John. There are only two books of the New Testament that I adhere to - Gospel of John, and Revelation. I know there probably isn't a theologian in the world who'd agree with me, but then again theologians are taught by man and not God. [/QUOTE

The first four 'letters' were all written from a different view point and to different people. I believe that the book of "John" was written 'from' the Levitical Priesthood view point and 'to' the Jewish Nation.



derekkye

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Revelation 2:2 - I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them WHICH SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES, AND ARE NOT, AND HAST FOUND THEM LIARS.

Who do we know who says they are an apostle?

With help from God I see Paul as one referred to in Revelation 2:2. Now how many churches do you think would welcome me if I proclaim that Paul is a liar?

I'm reminded of an OT story - God ordered a slaughter of the people, and He said to start the slaughter at His sanctuary.

Isn't because of Paul that people believe they don't have to keep the commandments?



Paul told 'Gentiles' that they did not have to keep the 'Law of Stone', as they were never under that 'Law'. He told the Judeizers (Jewish Christians) that he would not put them under that which 'our Fathers could not bare'. In the Book of Acts, James tells Pual to go to The Temple and Sacrifice "because we keep The Law" + Jesus....Paul did go to The Temple and Sacrifice to The Mosaic Covenant 'Law'. But 'The Book of Hebrews' says that 'The Tabernacle' (that was standing) Had 'Standing"....as long as it Stood. The Hebrew Writer also talks about 'That which is waxing old and fading away. This is in full reference to the Old Covenant Law that was still in effect ....For those who had been 'under' it. Paul was The Apostal to The Gentiles and The Gentiles were never 'under' the Mosaic Law.

[Brother Les]

derekkye
# of apostles

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

with regards to Paul

Q - How many apostles of the lamb are there?

A - Unequivocally 12, and only 12 - just as there are 12 sons of Jacob
I now leave it as an exercise for you to name the 12

Revelation 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So I ask you do you think Paul's name will be there?

In the book of revelation you have God's two witnesses giving their testimony. In contrast you have the beast and the false prophet doing their thing. This same principle can be applied to when Jesus gave His testimony. Someone of the same time was giving their false testimony in my opinion.


Father 'Israel' (Jacob) took both sons of Joseh as his own and then gave 'them' (Manasseh and Ephraim), the BirthRight.

The 'Apostle' Paul, said to the King (book of Acts) that he taught 'Nothing but The Law and The Prophets'.....he told the King that those who said that he (Paul) was teaching 'something else...but The Law and The Prophets...could not prove it.










--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:
Originally Posted by joel
derekkye,

I may have missed something....so I am asking for a clarification........why did you choose to reject Paul's writings?

Joel II Corinthians 12:16 - But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

vs

Revelation 14:4,5 - These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found NO GUILE: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

it's easy for me to see how Paul is of the devil - what more can I do?



Audience relevance


Aren't the two witnesses of Revelation none other than Father & Son?

No.....Who were 'the witnesses' against The Tabernacle and The People? The Law and The Prophets.

[derekkye]

Well I certainly didn't expect for anyone to agree. Those who truly have their heart set on God will come to know the truth.

[joel]

derekkye;

The absolute foolishness and absurdity of your position is that God, in His wisdom, chose the most fearsome enemy of the gospel, Saul of Tarsus, to convert through a miraculous event, and, then to reveal vital truth that is essential to a right standing with God........and yet, in your "wisdom" Paul is a deceiver.

If Paul is the converted enemy, who are you?

Joel

[derekkye]

revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do His commandments...

Now why would it say that on the last page -the last chapter - the last book of the bible if God did not want us to keep the commandements? The commandments weren't meant to be unbearable, and I can attest that they are not unbearable.

Somebody comes along in between the OT and the final writing of the bible and by his own mouth says he's an apostle of the lamb and leads the people to believe that the commandments do not have to be kept. Paul, who says, "I lie not." - liars speak like that. Do you keep the commandments Joel? What day do you observe the sabbath on? (that day where you don't labour even if you were offered millions of dollars).

Revelation 2:2 - do you not think an example of such a false prophet would be given in the bible?

do a google search - Paul false apostle - the case against him is convincing

Christians don't want to accept Paul as a false apostle because it just might mean that God's commandments do have to be kept.

[Brother Les]

derekkye

revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do His commandments...

Now why would it say that on the last page -the last chapter - the last book of the bible if God did not want us to keep the commandements? The commandments weren't meant to be unbearable, and I can attest that they are not unbearable.

Somebody comes along in between the OT and the final writing of the bible and by his own mouth says he's an apostle of the lamb and leads the people to believe that the commandments do not have to be kept. Paul, who says, "I lie not." - liars speak like that. Do you keep the commandments Joel? What day do you observe the sabbath on? (that day where you don't labour even if you were offered millions of dollars).

Revelation 2:2 - do you not think an example of such a false prophet would be given in the bible?

do a google search - Paul false apostle - the case against him is convincing

Christians don't want to accept Paul as a false apostle because it just might mean that God's commandments do have to be kept.
06-29-2008 11:12 AM


Derekkye, Welcome back.

We can see that you have an issue with 'Paul'. Please expand on this if you would like to. You say that you follow 'John' and 'Revelation' (which are very good 'books'). What do you think of the 'non-Paul' writings of Hebrews, James, Peter, Matthew, Mark and Luke?

Grace to You
Brother Les

[John4:18]

revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do His commandments...

Now why would it say that on the last page -the last chapter - the last book of the bible if God did not want us to keep the commandements? The commandments weren't meant to be unbearable, and I can attest that they are not unbearable.

Somebody comes along in between the OT and the final writing of the bible and by his own mouth says he's an apostle of the lamb and leads the people to believe that the commandments do not have to be kept. Paul, who says, "I lie not." - liars speak like that. Do you keep the commandments Joel? What day do you observe the sabbath on? (that day where you don't labour even if you were offered millions of dollars).

Revelation 2:2 - do you not think an example of such a false prophet would be given in the bible?

do a google search - Paul false apostle - the case against him is convincing

Christians don't want to accept Paul as a false apostle because it just might mean that God's commandments do have to be kept.

Do you follow the commandments Derek?

Think long and hard before you answer

[alec cotton]

Yes there were twelve apostles. There were also 13 and fourteen. Echoing the twleve thirteen and fourteen tribes of Israel. When Joshuah sent the spies. Out of fourteen tribes,thirteen tribes sent twelve spies. I wrote this list once before ,but made such a poultice of it 'till Richard came to my rescue.

Mathew 10 Mark 3.16 Luke 6.14 Acts 1.13
Simon Peter
Andrew James Andrew James
James John James John
John Andrew John Andrew
Philip
Bartholomew Barthomolew Bartholomew Thomas
Thomas Mathew Mathew Bartholomew
Mathew Thomas Thomas Mathew
James
Labaeus (Thaddeaus) Thaddeaus Simon Zelotetes Simon Zelotes
Simon/canaanite Simon/canaanite Judas bro. James Judas bro.James
Judas iscariot Judas iscariot Judas Iscariot Vacant


Here you can see a clear pattern. It is no accident. The Holy Spirit guided the hand which wrote the words .Anyone who has visited this site can clearly see the incontrovertible evidence that the whole Bible is the work and word of God . He has preserved his word to the letter.This word is capable of withstanding any onslaught from any direction. Whether it be scoffer or scorner,avowed friend or sworn enemy,it will stand for ever and I for one am absolotely ecstatic about it .
Child of the living God
Alec

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yes there were twelve apostles. There were also 13 and fourteen. Echoing the twleve thirteen and fourteen tribes of Israel. When Joshuah sent the spies. Out of fourteen tribes,thirteen tribes sent twelve spies. I wrote this list once before ,but made such a poultice of it 'till Richard came to my rescue.

Mathew 10 Mark 3.16 Luke 6.14 Acts 1.13
Simon Peter
Andrew
James
Andrew James
James John James John
John Andrew John Andrew
Philip
Bartholomew Barthomolew Bartholomew Thomas
Thomas Mathew Mathew Bartholomew
Mathew Thomas Thomas Mathew
James
Labaeus (Thaddeaus) Thaddeaus Simon Zelotetes Simon Zelotes
Simon/canaanite Simon/canaanite Judas bro. James Judas bro.James
Judas iscariot Judas iscariot Judas Iscariot Vacant


Here you can see a clear pattern. It is no accident. The Holy Spirit guided the hand which wrote the words .Anyone who has visited this site can clearly see the incontrovertible evidence that the whole Bible is the work and word of God . He has preserved his word to the letter.This word is capable of withstanding any onslaught from any direction. Whether it be scoffer or scorner,avowed friend or sworn enemy,it will stand for ever and I for one am absolotely ecstatic about it .
Child of the living God
Alec
Hey there brother Alec!

That is an amazing pattern you have found. Unfortunately, your table didn't come through properly because its really hard to format tables using the forum software, so I put together this pic:

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/ApostlesList.jpg


The symmetry is truly stunning. First, there are the four entries that are the same in all lists:

Peter is always first
Philip is always fifth
James is always ninth
Judas is always last (or missing)

This is particularly intriguing, because the first three "fixed names" divide the list into three groups of four names each, and corresponding groups start with the same name in all four lists. Despite the fact that no two lists are the same, they all follow the same pattern of breaking the list down into three groups headed by the same three apostles in the same order.

Futhermore, there is a nearly perfect pattern of interchanging names between the lists such as this:

Andrew is always second or fourth
James is always second or third
John is always third or fourth

The only break from perfect symmetry is in the placement of Bartholomew since he "interrupts" the otherwise symmetric interchange between Thomas and Matthew.

This truly is an amazing find. Thank you my brother!

Richard

PS: I love your enthusiastic love of God's Word! :thumb:

[Victor]

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/ApostlesList.jpg

Alec and Richard,

That's truly amazing!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/ApostlesList.jpg

Alec and Richard,

That's truly amazing!
The thing that really amazes me is that I've been studying the Bible for a couple decades and have never seen anyone mention this before.