Shame

[newnature]

Far too many believers are feeling dirty, worthless and ashamed of themselves; shame is a silent, but deadly disease that pollutes the lifeblood of many believers faith. As a result, we feel unclean and therefore unworthy to approach God and have the living and intimate relationship that he wants to have with us. Shame prevents us from intimacy with God because it makes us feel unworthy and distant from him. God’s standard is nothing less than perfection and none of us measure up, if we did or we ever could measure up sufficiently righteous for heaven through our performance, we would not have needed a savior at all. For it is God’s grace, not our striving, that makes us accepted and acceptable. It is God’s performance through Jesus Christ, not our trying hard to perform, that eradicates our shame. Some of us spend most of our life giving up. We are tired, burned out, disillusioned, depressed, addicted to something. People around us feel frustrated by the huge disparity between our capabilities and our performance. They either pep talk us concerning our value, or shame us for not performing. No one can have a close relationship with us; we push people away physically and emotionally, and push God away. We are the ones in families, churches, and society that people take care of-for a while, until we are given up on because of our lack of response. For all the performance-based people around us, we are simply bad for public relations. Once in a while we find ourselves in an environment that shames us for being so defective, then we start trying harder, but it does not last for long, we are simply out of gas to start with, we merely survive.

God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

[Rose]

Far too many believers are feeling dirty, worthless and ashamed of themselves; shame is a silent, but deadly disease that pollutes the lifeblood of many believers faith. As a result, we feel unclean and therefore unworthy to approach God and have the living and intimate relationship that he wants to have with us. Shame prevents us from intimacy with God because it makes us feel unworthy and distant from him. God’s standard is nothing less than perfection and none of us measure up, if we did or we ever could measure up sufficiently righteous for heaven through our performance, we would not have needed a savior at all. For it is God’s grace, not our striving, that makes us accepted and acceptable. It is God’s performance through Jesus Christ, not our trying hard to perform, that eradicates our shame. Some of us spend most of our life giving up. We are tired, burned out, disillusioned, depressed, addicted to something. People around us feel frustrated by the huge disparity between our capabilities and our performance. They either pep talk us concerning our value, or shame us for not performing. No one can have a close relationship with us; we push people away physically and emotionally, and push God away. We are the ones in families, churches, and society that people take care of-for a while, until we are given up on because of our lack of response. For all the performance-based people around us, we are simply bad for public relations. Once in a while we find ourselves in an environment that shames us for being so defective, then we start trying harder, but it does not last for long, we are simply out of gas to start with, we merely survive.

God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/

Hello Newnature :yo: Glad you stopped by for a chat ...

While I understand your sentiments, the reason many Christians feel unworthy and sinful is because that is what the Bible teaches. From cover to cover the Bible is filled with the sinfulness of man, declaring our flawed nature from birth. Women are seen as the property of men and gender bias is rampant. It is no wonder that believers feel dirty and ashamed of themselves ... it is what they are taught on practically every page of the Bible.

The best way to overcome shame is to realize that each and every one of our lives has equal value and no one is born in sin. Sin, like the Biblegod is a construct made up in the minds of superstitious, primitive men who did not understand the world around them. These primitive men believed that if they did not appease their god with worship and obedience he would cause their lives to be full of suffering and hardship.

People need to be reconciled by believing in themselves and knowing that each individual life has equal worth, which has nothing to do with any religion or god.

Take care,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

While I understand your sentiments, the reason many Christians feel unworthy and sinful is because that is what the Bible teaches. From cover to cover the Bible is filled with the sinfulness of man, declaring our flawed nature from birth. Women are seen as the property of men and gender bias is rampant. It is no wonder that believers feel dirty and ashamed of themselves ... it is what they are taught on practically every page of the Bible.

That's what I was going to say. The Bible teaches that people are of no value, except in as much as God can use them to show off his glory like some raging egomaniac. Many Christians believe that God will torment most people in hell for eternity to demonstrate his "righteousness" by showing how much he hates sin. That's pretty twisted. People are just pawns in his game of showing off how great he is. It's like the book of Job. God destroyed Job's family, and then replaced them at the end, as if there were nothing but stage props.

[duxrow]

The fiery finger of GOD wrote The Law
in the tablets of stone,
And once a year the blood of a goat
did for their sin atone.

That Old Covenant they had was for
the purpose of teaching a lesson,
and now we have a better deal,
'cause the blood is real,
and we're no longer guessin'!

The gentle finger of Jesus wrote the
Law of Love in the dust on the ground.
His forgiveness of the woman adulteress
was an act of this truth so profound.

He was the one who became the goat for us,
and also the ram in the thicket..
He is the Lamb that covers our sin,
and gives righteousness to the wicked.

The literal truth comes first,
and leads to the abstract truth of the poet,
And the things recorded in His Book
have a deeper meaning: Don't you know it?

It may not be just what you think,
because the language was once confounded,
But it will surely enlighten your eyes,
if your brain hasn't been impounded. :eek:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The gentle finger of Jesus wrote the
Law of Love in the dust on the ground.
His forgiveness of the woman adulteress
was an act of this truth so profound.

This point confuses me. If God let her go, then why does he punish others? I would be very upset if I was killed for my adultery and she got off for hers. That's not fair. And if it's not fair, it's not just. And if it's not just, then God is an unjust judge. Like when he let David commit murder and adultery but didn't punish him according to the law. Why does God show favoritism like that? Doesn't it make a mockery of the claim that he is righteous?

[duxrow]

This point confuses me. If God let her go, then why does he punish others? I would be very upset if I was killed for my adultery and she got off for hers. That's not fair. And if it's not fair, it's not just. And if it's not just, then God is an unjust judge. Like when he let David commit murder and adultery but didn't punish him according to the law. Why does God show favoritism like that? Doesn't it make a mockery of the claim that he is righteous?
We've been over this before, Ram, but guess it "didn't take". You and Rose accusing The Almighty with "the god of this world" (Satan) 2Cor4:4. We're in the Adult dispensation and have to put on the Armor of Ephesians 6 to battle our adversary.

Careful now--might get over into preaching! :eek:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

We've been over this before, Ram, but guess it "didn't take". You and Rose accusing The Almighty with "the god of this world" (Satan) 2Cor4:4. We're in the Adult dispensation and have to put on the Armor of Ephesians 6 to battle our adversary.

Careful now--might get over into preaching! :eek:
Feel free to preach. Perhaps a good place to start would be to explain what you meant by the sentence I highlighted red. What does it mean to accuse the Almighty with "the god of this world"? I can't make sense out of that sentence. Did you mean "confuse" rather than "accuse"?

[duxrow]

Keerect! Thought you'd figure I meant confuse, but also ACCUSE the Almighty of the things that Satan has done. The TWO (2) gods (satan with little 'g'), and the three (3) dispensations: Infant, Children, Adult. Like Genesis is really PRE-LAW, and even the octogenarian Jews were labeled "children". That curiosity never bothered you?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Keerect! Thought you'd figure I meant confuse, but also ACCUSE the Almighty of the things that Satan has done. The TWO (2) gods (satan with little 'g'), and the three (3) dispensations: Infant, Children, Adult. Like Genesis is really PRE-LAW, and even the octogenarian Jews were labeled "children". That curiosity never bothered you?
I've never accused God of doing anything that Satan has done. No need. He's done much worse things than Satan could ever dream of doing because he is the Almighty and in control of everything. Indeed, Satan can't do anything without his direct permission, like when he let Satan kill Job's family.

God is responsible for all the evil in the world. He set up the system of sin and death and rules over it. He didn't have to do it. He could have chosen a million other ways to make the world. Why did he choose to design the world to create so much unnecessary suffering? Indeed, if you believe in hell, he created an infinite amount of suffering. That's an infinite evil.

[David M]

Some of my thoughts on this subject from some of the replies so far are these:

The Satan of this word is no more that the adversary that is man. Satan simply means adversary and occurs in various ways. An Angel of God appeared as an adversary to Balaam and stood in the way of his ass as he rode along the road. Peter's intention for Jesus was not the same and God's intention and was contrary to it, therefore Peter was accused of being Satan. Satan is most of the time associated with man, because it is the carnal mind of man which we are told is enmity with God. The evil actions of man come from the evil thoughts in man's mind. We are also told; "the world" is enmity with God, and "the world" in this case consists of those who have the carnal mind and are godless and without righteousness. They do not have by any degree the mind of Christ and in no way can be considered righteous by God's standard. Satan is the god of this world, because most of the time, the way of man is contrary to God's instruction and man follows his own ways. This is a form of selfishness. Selfishness is born out of pride. Therefore, the god of this world can also be thought of as man's selfish pride.


God is responsible for setting up this world in which man has been given freedom to choose and exercise freewill. Man has proven in the last 6,000 years not to govern according to God's way. God has given instruction and man simply will not follow it. The freewill that man has been able to exercise, is bringing destruction on himself and to the planet. God will not let man destroy himself and will intervene at some point in the future.

In the meantime, God has ultimate control over his creation and is working out his plan. God is hands-off watching what man is doing, but will operate in the kingdom of men to keep his plan on track. We can think that no injustice in the world, whether done openly or in secret will go unnoticed. Our memory, which is our brain, is our accuser. Our brain has the capacity to remember what we have done in our lives. Only God can read people's hearts (which is essentially our brain) and with such power has to determine whether he sees anything righteous in a person, whereby that person is acceptable to God and worth saving. You can be assured that a person's sin which God does not condone will come into the reckoning on the Day of Judgement.

We should not blame God for our own actions. We are responsible for our own mistakes; even not doing Richard's Golden Rule. Accusing God of condoning man's evil actions, is not correct. God can be thought of as having hands-off most of the time and is watching what goes on. We can liken what God is doing to when you have to let go of your children and let them live their life and take responsibility for their actions. If you ever found out that your children have committed a crime or confess to having committed a crime, you would expect them to be punished. We can think of the Day of Judgement to be the time when punishment and reward will be given.

By allowing man to exercise freewill, God is not condoning every evil action man commits. The fact we have to realize is this; when the Judgement takes place, all the wrongs and injustices will be put right. The wicked people, who are not judged to be righteous, will be excluded from the Kingdom; that is their eternal punishment to remain in the grave where there is no memory or consciousness. Anyone deemed to be righteous will be saved. Whatever injustice a righteous person might have suffered at the hands of evil men, even the losing of their life, God will correct when that person is given eternal life. That more than makes up for what a person suffers in this life and whether they have had their life cut short. That proves that God is righteous, just and merciful.

To make God morally responsible for every evil action of man is nonsense. This can be seen as man showing how he tries to shift the blame off himself and shift the blame on to God.



David

[duxrow]

God is responsible for all the evil in the world. He set up the system of sin and death and rules over it. He didn't have to do it. He could have chosen a million other ways to make the world. Why did he choose to design the world to create so much unnecessary suffering? Indeed, if you believe in hell, he created an infinite amount of suffering. That's an infinite evil.
Bible Bookends are Genesis and Revelation. Naturally we're aghast at the weird things in the OT, but mystery readers find answers in the last 'chapters', like in 1John4:8 where we learn God is Love, and in Rev12 where Satan is identified as the serpent in the garden. (Many metaphors for ALL the characters in Book of Life..). Doncha know how literature and mystery buffs have established that "the BUTLER did it!" -- just like the Life & Death dreams of the prisoners with Joseph in Egypt. LOL! :lol:

[Rose]

In the meantime, God has ultimate control over his creation and is working out his plan. God is hands-off watching what man is doing, but will operate in the kingdom of men to keep his plan on track. We can think that no injustice in the world, whether done openly or in secret will go unnoticed. Our memory, which is our brain, is our accuser. Our brain has the capacity to remember what we have done in our lives. Only God can read people's hearts (which is essentially our brain) and with such power has to determine whether he sees anything righteous in a person, whereby that person is acceptable to God and worth saving. You can be assured that a person's sin which God does not condone will come into the reckoning on the Day of Judgement.

We should not blame God for our own actions. We are responsible for our own mistakes; even not doing Richard's Golden Rule. Accusing God of condoning man's evil actions, is not correct. God can be thought of as having hands-off most of the time and is watching what goes on. We can liken what God is doing to when you have to let go of your children and let them live their life and take responsibility for their actions. If you ever found out that your children have committed a crime or confess to having committed a crime, you would expect them to be punished. We can think of the Day of Judgement to be the time when punishment and reward will be given.

By allowing man to exercise freewill, God is not condoning every evil action man commits. The fact we have to realize is this; when the Judgement takes place, all the wrongs and injustices will be put right. The wicked people, who are not judged to be righteous, will be excluded from the Kingdom; that is their eternal punishment to remain in the grave where there is no memory or consciousness. Anyone deemed to be righteous will be saved. Whatever injustice a righteous person might have suffered at the hands of evil men, even the losing of their life, God will correct when that person is given eternal life. That more than makes up for what a person suffers in this life and whether they have had their life cut short. That proves that God is righteous, just and merciful.

To make God morally responsible for every evil action of man is nonsense. This can be seen as man showing how he tries to shift the blame off himself and shift the blame on to God.



David

Hello David,

If you are going to compare god to a parent with children, then you must do so in a realistic manner, such as the relationship between a parent and a very young immature child. A responsible parent would never allow their young children to have freewill in determining important life choices that they are too immature to understand the consequences of. The blame for any action of an under-aged, immature child falls solely on the parent, the same would hold true for the god you believe in ... it is nonsense to think otherwise.

[David M]

Hello David,

If you are going to compare god to a parent with children, then you must do so in a realistic manner, such as the relationship between a parent and a very young immature child. A responsible parent would never allow their young children to have freewill in determining important life choices that they are too immature to understand the consequences of. The blame for any action of an under-aged, immature child falls solely on the parent, the same would hold true for the god you believe in ... it is nonsense to think otherwise.
Hello Rose
Of course it is not nonsense to think otherwise. You are assuming Adam and Eve were immature and not adults. Adam and Eve were made fully developed without the growing up to adulthood. How do you determine Adam and Eve were not mature? Adam could communicate with God and he was given the task of tending the garden and naming the animals. That shows he was fully equipped to begin with. Adam and Eve were not children who had to grow up, learn language to become fully developed adults. The difference between animals and humans is the ability to reason. There is nothing to suggest Adam and Eve were not fully developed with the ability to reason.

The difference between Adam and Eve the following generations is that the following generations were born and Adam and Eve were created.

How old do you think Cain was when he killed Abel?. Are you going to blame Adam and Eve for what Cain did? Was Cain not mature enough to know what he was doing?

The difference between animals and humans is the ability to reason. Adam and Eve we can assume as fully developed with the ability to reason. Hence, there are reasons for blaming Adam and Eve and not God.

All the best
David

[Rose]

Hello Rose
Of course it is not nonsense to think otherwise. You are assuming Adam and Eve were immature and not adults. Adam and Eve were made fully developed without the growing up to adulthood. How do you determine Adam and Eve were not mature? Adam could communicate with God and he was given the task of tending the garden and naming the animals. That shows he was fully equipped to begin with. Adam and Eve were not children who had to grow up, learn language to become fully developed adults. The difference between animals and humans is the ability to reason. There is nothing to suggest Adam and Eve were not fully developed with the ability to reason.

The difference between Adam and Eve the following generations is that the following generations were born and Adam and Eve were created.

How old do you think Cain was when he killed Abel?. Are you going to blame Adam and Eve for what Cain did? Was Cain not mature enough to know what he was doing?

The difference between animals and humans is the ability to reason. Adam and Eve we can assume as fully developed with the ability to reason. Hence, there are reasons for blaming Adam and Eve and not God.

All the best
David

Hello David,

First off I didn't realize you actually believed in mythological story of Adam and Eve in the Garden. Do you realize how insane it sounds for a creator god to deceive Adam into thinking that by naming all the animals he would find a mate for himself, when all the while god knew that there was none to be found? Deception sure sounds like a fine way to start things off. If Adam couldn't trust god about finding a mate why should he trust him about eating from the tree? It seems like god was the deceiver instead of the snake!

Secondly, when speaking of Adam and Eve's maturity level I am not comparing them to other humans, rather the comparison is between them and god. According to the story they were lacking in the knowledge of good and evil, so in that area alone they were like naive children, with god as the all knowing parent who was suppose to be protecting his children ... yeah right :p

Take care,
Rose

[David M]

Hello David,

First off I didn't realize you actually believed in mythological story of Adam and Eve in the Garden. Do you realize how insane it sounds for a creator god to deceive Adam into thinking that by naming all the animals he would find a mate for himself, when all the while god knew that there was none to be found? Deception sure sounds like a fine way to start things off. If Adam couldn't trust god about finding a mate why should he trust him about eating from the tree? It seems like god was the deceiver instead of the snake!

Secondly, when speaking of Adam and Eve's maturity level I am not comparing them to other humans, rather the comparison is between them and god. According to the story they were lacking in the knowledge of good and evil, so in that area alone they were like naive children, with god as the all knowing parent who was suppose to be protecting his children ... yeah right :p

Take care,
Rose
Hello Rose
How come you did not realize..? Ever since coming to this forum I have made it obvious I believe the Bible is God's word and is a record by which the origin of the universe and life is explained (all be it in a simplified way). Adam and Eve is not myth, but without understanding the figurative language, such as the serpent to describe what is The Satan associated with the human mind, the story is made to appear mythical by those who do not seek to understand it.
I suppose you think the story of Job is mythical. If you think the Bible is mythical, then there is no point to further discussion with you. I am not here to discuss things on a humanist platform only.
I seek to aid and acquire more understanding of God's word and get to the truth that is contained in the words we have on record. While there is a lot of confusion, my aim is to reduce the confusion and make sense of it and help people to rightly divide the word and separate the myth from the reality.

Now as far as the story of Adam and Eve is concerned, we have to go on the little we are told and where possible we look to the Bible to give as many answers as possible. We can find out from other parts of the Bible things that help us in parts where the information is lacking. We can pick up on the little things like where Ezekiel 14:14 mentions Noah, Job and Daniel as all being in the land at some time. We have the prophecies made through Daniel and there is historical records to support the fact that Daniel existed at a time in history and is reason to accept that Daniel was a real person. To mention Noah and Job in the same breath is to say that they also were real people. All you have to do, is understand what actually took place when you read the stories. I doubt you understand correctly what is happening in the Book of Job.

Back to Adam and Eve, Jesus believed in Adam and Eve and that is endorsement enough. Given that we have little to go on, the only fair thing to do, is to make all reasonable assumptions. By fair, I mean you cannot rule things out which are not mentioned. We can rule as much in as rule out. You appear to want it all one sided and that is why you show your bias against God. OK, I show my bias towards God. I am the one often accused of twisting words when you and others think you can make all sorts of assumptions that are unfounded. If we are going to make assumptions, then we have to decide which assumptions are valid.

It does not matter if Adam and Eve were created equivalent to a person, 18, 25, 35 years of age, you do not know how much intelligence they had to begin with. It is a reasonable assumption that God would have created them as fully matured adults capable of having children etc. Did they learn what sex was before they had children or was that knowledge already programmed in? Adam and Eve did not have to learn to speak; language was already programmed in.

Adam and Eve were set a basic test. It is a test any one of us can be set. Regardless of the consequence, most people could be expected to fail the test. If it had not been Adam and Eve, it would have been one of their children. The outcome no matter how inevitable it was, God was fair in setting the test. You could be told by anyone; "do not .." and are you going to obey or are you going to think of reasons or excuses not to comply? The moment a person is told; "do not ...." questions begin to arise in the mind; "why not ...?" "Why am I being denied ...?" Selfishness,pride, lust, are all the things spoken of in the letter of James and explains exactly the same process that took place with Eve as it does with us today. Nothing has changed.

Seeing as you have abandoned your belief in God, it appears you have abandoned rational thought, and are now blind to what the Bible has to teach you. It does not have to be that way and that is why you can still choose to do what you want.

All the best
David

[Rose]

Hello Rose
How come you did not realize..? Ever since coming to this forum I have made it obvious I believe the Bible is God's word and is a record by which the origin of the universe and life is explained (all be it in a simplified way). Adam and Eve is not myth, but without understanding the figurative language, such as the serpent to describe what is The Satan associated with the human mind, the story is made to appear mythical by those who do not seek to understand it.
I suppose you think the story of Job is mythical. If you think the Bible is mythical, then there is no point to further discussion with you. I am not here to discuss things on a humanist platform only.
I seek to aid and acquire more understanding of God's word and get to the truth that is contained in the words we have on record. While there is a lot of confusion, my aim is to reduce the confusion and make sense of it and help people to rightly divide the word and separate the myth from the reality.

Hi David,

Of course I think the book of Job is mythical. It is one of the most screwed up books in the Bible. It goes against all our moral intuitions of justice and righteousness.

1. In the story Job's authentic righteousness, spoken about from the mouth of god can be questioned and tested for no good reason.
2. Human life is valued no more than the worth of property and can be replaced.
3. The supposed creator of the universe allows himself to be dared by an evil being.
4. Job's questions of why god allowed the life of a righteous man to be destroyed on the whims of Satan are never answered.
5. God is depicted as uncaring and without compassion.


Now as far as the story of Adam and Eve is concerned, we have to go on the little we are told and where possible we look to the Bible to give as many answers as possible. We can find out from other parts of the Bible things that help us in parts where the information is lacking. We can pick up on the little things like where Ezekiel 14:14 mentions Noah, Job and Daniel as all being in the land at some time. We have the prophecies made through Daniel and there is historical records to support the fact that Daniel existed at a time in history and is reason to accept that Daniel was a real person. To mention Noah and Job in the same breath is to say that they also were real people. All you have to do, is understand what actually took place when you read the stories. I doubt you understand correctly what is happening in the Book of Job.

What does the author of Ezekiel mentioning Noah, Job and Daniel in the same sentence have to do with their authenticity? All it shows is that those characters were known to people of that time period. It has no bearing on whether or not those character were authentic or mythological.


Back to Adam and Eve, Jesus believed in Adam and Eve and that is endorsement enough. Given that we have little to go on, the only fair thing to do, is to make all reasonable assumptions. By fair, I mean you cannot rule things out which are not mentioned. We can rule as much in as rule out. You appear to want it all one sided and that is why you show your bias against God. OK, I show my bias towards God. I am the one often accused of twisting words when you and others think you can make all sorts of assumptions that are unfounded. If we are going to make assumptions, then we have to decide which assumptions are valid.

It does not matter if Adam and Eve were created equivalent to a person, 18, 25, 35 years of age, you do not know how much intelligence they had to begin with. It is a reasonable assumption that God would have created them as fully matured adults capable of having children etc. Did they learn what sex was before they had children or was that knowledge already programmed in? Adam and Eve did not have to learn to speak; language was already programmed in.

Adam and Eve were set a basic test. It is a test any one of us can be set. Regardless of the consequence, most people could be expected to fail the test. If it had not been Adam and Eve, it would have been one of their children. The outcome no matter how inevitable it was, God was fair in setting the test. You could be told by anyone; "do not .." and are you going to obey or are you going to think of reasons or excuses not to comply? The moment a person is told; "do not ...." questions begin to arise in the mind; "why not ...?" "Why am I being denied ...?" Selfishness,pride, lust, are all the things spoken of in the letter of James and explains exactly the same process that took place with Eve as it does with us today. Nothing has changed.

Seeing as you have abandoned your belief in God, it appears you have abandoned rational thought, and are now blind to what the Bible has to teach you. It does not have to be that way and that is why you can still choose to do what you want.

All the best
David

Again, just because Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Bible by Jesus gives no credence to their authenticity. A cultures myths are passed down generation after generation, that doesn't make them true.

You never addressed the issue of why it was okay for god to deceive Adam into thinking that he would find a mate amongst all the animals he named? Is that the way we are suppose to teach our children, through lies and deception and then expect them to have faith in us?

As far as rational thought goes, it is the person who believes without question that is lacking in it.

Take care,
Rose

[David M]

Hello Rose

Hi David,

Of course I think the book of Job is mythical. It is one of the most screwed up books in the Bible. It goes against all our moral intuitions of justice and righteousness.Then it is obvious Rose that you do not understand the Book of Job and therefore you are the one that has the warped mind.

I will add my comments below each point you make

1. In the story Job's authentic righteousness, spoken about from the mouth of god can be questioned and tested for no good reason.
I do not understand what you are saying. The story involves human jealousy and God proves that despite God acting on those thoughts, which were in the minds of those jealous of Job, God took those thoughts and empowered them. Job did not buckle and proves God right and Job came through the test. Job still had one important lesson to learn.
2. Human life is valued no more than the worth of property and can be replaced.
No it is not, if you understand the compassion God has, there is reason to believe (and it would have dawned on Job later in his life) that Job's children would be resurrected to be in the kingdom.
3. The supposed creator of the universe allows himself to be dared by an evil being.
God takes human thoughts (stemming from jealousy and pride) and empowered those thoughts by God doing what humans wanted to see happen to Job.
4. Job's questions of why god allowed the life of a righteous man to be destroyed on the whims of Satan are never answered.
Job's does demand an answer, but God does no bend to the demands of man and so Elihu is sent as the arbitrator when on the story , Job is angry, Job's three friends (as The Satan) are angry and God is angry. Satan was winning the battle with Job and Job's pride rises to the surface. God saves Job from his pride and in so doing also saves Job's three friends.
5. God is depicted as uncaring and without compassion.
God puts himself in a position by what he does to Job that God is attracting the criticism by people like yourself. Once it is realized that God is saving Job, and his three friends from their pride (which God hates) God is seen in a new light. That is why we can speak well of God and not in the way you obviously do. Job only suffers for 0.5% of his 200 year life. That means Job was well blessed for 99.5% of his life.


What does the author of Ezekiel mentioning Noah, Job and Daniel in the same sentence have to do with their authenticity? All it shows is that those characters were known to people of that time period. It has no bearing on whether or not those character were authentic or mythological.I am pointing out that as you think Adam and Eve were mythological, and therefore, you probably think Noah was the same and maybe Job also, the fact is, they are named alongside someone who is not thought to be mythological. By association, Noah and Job are not mythological and are real persons.


Again, just because Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Bible by Jesus gives no credence to their authenticity. A cultures myths are passed down generation after generation, that doesn't make them true.Of course you deny Jesus is the Son of God. Thereby, anything said by Jesus is not going to resonate with you. As the Son of God and next in line of importance to God, I take the words of Jesus very seriously.


You never addressed the issue of why it was okay for god to deceive Adam into thinking that he would find a mate amongst all the animals he named? Is that the way we are suppose to teach our children, through lies and deception and then expect them to have faith in us?I find no deception at all. There is nothing said about Adam setting out to find a mate amongst the animals. The animals were not going to satisfy Adam in that Adam could not communicate with the animals. Adam felt the loneliness of being without a partner. Where do you get the idea from that Adam was to seek a help meat from the animals? The only words we have are these; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. The answer we can pursue is from the question; why did God not create Eve at the same time as Adam? Why did God break the pattern when it came to creating man and woman? Animals were created male and female at the same time, but with Adam and Eve there must have been a reason for God giving Adam a period of time on his own. I suggest there was a reason, and that reason must be thought through carefully. It is pure nonsense and wild conjecture to say that Adam was somehow deceived by God. Even to think there is any sexual connotation in the words "help meat" is wild conjecture. Even if we allow for the fact that Adam had some sexual urge to satisfy, it is not in harmony with the character of God to expect Adam to get sexual satisfaction from having sex with animals. That was an abomination to God as shown in the law given to Moses. It is nonsense to even lay such charges against God for putting Adam in a situation that would have encouraged Adam to that which was an abomination to God.


As far as rational thought goes, it is the person who believes without question that is lacking in it.Also, do not forget the person who disbelieves without knowledge. As was said of Israel by God; (Hosea 4:6)) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee,

(Prov 4:7) Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Unfortunately, too many people do what Israel did:
(Zech 7:11) But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

All the best
David

[Rose]

Hello Rose

I find no deception at all. There is nothing said about Adam setting out to find a mate amongst the animals. The animals were not going to satisfy Adam in that Adam could not communicate with the animals. Adam felt the loneliness of being without a partner. Where do you get the idea from that Adam was to seek a help meat from the animals? The only words we have are these; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. The answer we can pursue is from the question; why did God not create Eve at the same time as Adam? Why did God break the pattern when it came to creating man and woman? Animals were created male and female at the same time, but with Adam and Eve there must have been a reason for God giving Adam a period of time on his own. I suggest there was a reason, and that reason must be thought through carefully. It is pure nonsense and wild conjecture to say that Adam was somehow deceived by God. Even to think there is any sexual connotation in the words "help meat" is wild conjecture. Even if we allow for the fact that Adam had some sexual urge to satisfy, it is not in harmony with the character of God to expect Adam to get sexual satisfaction from having sex with animals. That was an abomination to God as shown in the law given to Moses. It is nonsense to even lay such charges against God for putting Adam in a situation that would have encouraged Adam to that which was an abomination to God.


All the best
David

Hello David,

In order to not find something one has to be looking for it in the first place.

[David M]

Hello David,

In order to not find something one has to be looking for it in the first place.
Hello Rose

How would you describe/define loneliness?

What if Adam said something like; "I do not find any other animal looking like me". That would have been a fact.

We can imagine Adam saying to God; I see male this or that with their male genitalia, and I see female this or that with female genitalia and how they breed. I have similar male genitalia but do not see or cannot find a female version of me. Adam could have realized his uniqueness in more ways than one.

God later satisfied Adam's curiosity and need for a female partner.

It comes to my mind as I am writing this, that the unique situation that existed with Adam and God, is exactly the same as we have with Jesus and God. Jesus, The Christ, is both the last Adam and a New Man. The New Man (Jesus) has no female counterpart. There is no; 'Only Begotten Daughter of God'.

Jesus is God's only begotten Son. In the garden, we see at first, only the Father and Son relationship. After Eve was made and became Adam's partner and wife, the relationship changes.

If Dux is reading this, I am answering his last point in a post I have not replied to yet. God said to Adam; "where art thou?" God knew exactly where Adam was hiding; so why ask the question? The question is meant to teach us something more than what you think is the face value of the question. What God is pointing out to us and saying to Adam; "you are no longer with me; you have hid yourself. You have separated yourself from me and broken our relationship". That cannot be said of Jesus.

We can go on to reason the cause for Adam hiding and separating himself from God. One answer I suggest is; Adam partnered up with that which represented the Satan in him, the same as it does us all. Its all in the mind. The mind is where our personal battleground is. Do we partner with Satan (the opposer to God) or do we partner with God? It is the same story that underlies the Book of Job. Even Job lost his battle to The Satan. Job's pride (The Satan) surfaced and came to the fore.

Once again, by explaining things in this way, ithis goes to show that the creation story and that of Adam and Eve is more profound than we first realize. Once we have a correct understanding of why God did what he did and in the way that he did, then we come to appreciate God even more; I most certainly do.

All the best
David

[Rose]

Hello Rose

How would you describe/define loneliness?

What if Adam said something like; "I do not find any other animal looking like me". That would have been a fact.

We can imagine Adam saying to God; I see male this or that with their male genitalia, and I see female this or that with female genitalia and how they breed. I have similar male genitalia but do not see or cannot find a female version of me. Adam could have realized his uniqueness in more ways than one.

God later satisfied Adam's curiosity and need for a female partner.

It comes to my mind as I am writing this, that the unique situation that existed with Adam and God, is exactly the same as we have with Jesus and God. Jesus, The Christ, is both the last Adam and a New Man. The New Man (Jesus) has no female counterpart. There is no; 'Only Begotten Daughter of God'.

Jesus is God's only begotten Son. In the garden, we see at first, only the Father and Son relationship. After Eve was made and became Adam's partner and wife, the relationship changes.

If Dux is reading this, I am answering his last point in a post I have not replied to yet. God said to Adam; "where art thou?" God knew exactly where Adam was hiding; so why ask the question? The question is meant to teach us something more than what you think is the face value of the question. What God is pointing out to us and saying to Adam; "you are no longer with me; you have hid yourself. You have separated yourself from me and broken our relationship". That cannot be said of Jesus.


We can go on to reason the cause for Adam hiding and separating himself from God. One answer I suggest is; Adam partnered up with that which represented the Satan in him, the same as it does us all. Its all in the mind. The mind is where our personal battleground is. Do we partner with Satan (the opposer to God) or do we partner with God? It is the same story that underlies the Book of Job. Even Job lost his battle to The Satan. Job's pride (The Satan) surfaced and came to the fore.

Once again, by explaining things in this way, ithis goes to show that the creation story and that of Adam and Eve is more profound than we first realize. Once we have a correct understanding of why God did what he did and in the way that he did, then we come to appreciate God even more; I most certainly do.

All the best
David

Hi David,


The true issue is that god led Adam to believe that he would find a mate amongst all the animals that he was naming ... that is called deception.

Take care,
Rose

[David M]

Hi David,
The true issue is that god led Adam to believe that he would find a mate amongst all the animals that he was naming ... that is called deception.
Hello Rose
There is nothing in the text by which to conclude what you say is correct. It is your opinion and to me only goes to show that you will believe what you want to believe and in so doing think the worst of God. Thanks for for making your point known. I hope my responses help those looking for an explanation that is nearer the truth. I put my replies forward as my suggestion until I hear of a better suggestion from someone else.

All the best
David

[duxrow]

HeyDavid, maybe Rose imagines bestial (non-ED) behavior for Adam. Ugh! Wouldn't go that far.. :sEm_blush8:

Somewhere in the shuffle is my reflection about how Adam saw Eve eat from the Tree and then maybe he waited 24 hrs. to see if she would really die, before he ate!
Gen2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [speaking to Adam] shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". [Not "lest ye" or maybe, and nothing about touching..]

[David M]

Hello Dux

HeyDavid, maybe Rose imagines bestial (non-ED) behavior for Adam. Ugh! Wouldn't go that far.. :sEm_blush8:Whilst I appreciate the contributions of Sylvius, I am not always in agreement with the comments made by Rashi which Sylvius quotes. What you allude to what Rose might be saying, that is what Rashi says.
We have to speculate when we have no clear directive to go on. However, God is consistent. This is a point you and I can agree after all the years of Bible study. It is not held by those who have not taken everything in God's word into account. The fact that we learn in the law that it is abhorrent to God for a man or a woman to lie with an animal for sexual gratification, must mean that God would not expect Adam to find sexual gratification with animals. The problem is, Rashi promotes the idea in his commentary and there are those who are unlearned in the scriptures who are deceived by Rashi. For that reason, even though Rashi might have many useful things to say, we have to have suspicion about everything he says and not rely on anything he says which has not been verified elsewhere.


Somewhere in the shuffle is my reflection about how Adam saw Eve eat from the Tree and then maybe he waited 24 hrs. to see if she would really die, before he ate!
Gen2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [speaking to Adam] shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". [Not "lest ye" or maybe, and nothing about touching..]We do not know the time periods involved and so we can speculate on what might have took place. Any speculation has to be along lines of reality. I think that when the Bible is read, it can be like watching a movie. The Bible presents us with imagery that is taken as mythical and real at the same time. We know that when we come out of the movie theatre, and step back into the world that is the reality, it is nothing like we see in the movie. That is what we have to do with the Bible. We have to see the reality that is in the Bible and we have to see behind the figurative language and the imagery that is presented.

I have been watching some some Youtube videos that bring home the reality of what is taking place in the world and it is exactly as God has described and told us the world will become. It is all of man's doing and God sees it and can control it whereby we can see God acting in the kingdoms of man exactly as he has told he will do. We have confidence God is working out his plan to perfection and the righteous will be vindicated.

All the best
David