Ephraim...

[shawn]

Another theory.....

"Ephraim" is SPIRITUALLY the Christian, gentile church:

"Ephraim" means "fruitful". Joseph was a type for Jesus....and God has made his body (Christ's) "fruitful" in the land of his affliction.....after being rejected of his own household (temporarily)....the Jews.

(Gen 41:52 KJV) And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

Jesus stated that the kingdom of God was going to be taken from the Jews and given to a nation (gentiles) who would bear fruit (Ephraim = fruitfulness):

(Mat 21:43 KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When Jesus approached Jerusalem, he was hungry and saw a fig tree that had no fruit. He then cursed it saying that no man would eat its fruit hereafter:

(Mark 11:14 KJV) And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

The fig tree "dried up from the roots". All of this signified the Jews losing the kingdom of God.

20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

And again, Jesus lamented the loss that was going to be suffered by the Jews (his brothers)....losing the kingdom of God...their house would be left "desolate":

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Mat 23:38 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

And then Jesus tells them that they would not see him until they say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord":

(Mat 23:39 KJV) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

By saying this, it meant he would be hidden from their view.....that he would not walk openly among them from that point on as spiritually demonstrated by the following verse:

(John 11:54 KJV) Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

It is no coincidence that the city is called "Ephraim".....it signified that Jesus and his disciples would continue spiritually with the "gentiles" (near to the wilderness) who would produce fruit in the kingdom of God.

A "multitude of nations" = "fullness of the gentiles"......

(Gen 48:19 KJV) And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Ephraim would become greater than the firstborn.....his seed shall become a "multitude of nations." This is like saying a "multitude of gentiles" or the "fullness of gentiles". It is only after the "fullness of the gentiles" comes in that the natural branches, the Jews, would be grafted in again....we have not "replaced" the Jews:

(Rom 11:25 KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Rom 11:26 KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The "gentiles" are also known by the name of "Israel" as well as foretold by Joseph's father, Israel (Jacob):

(Gen 48:16 KJV) The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Knowing that we (the Christian gentile church) are "Ephraim"....when I read Hosea, it makes me shudder.....it is directed to us. Many of the church are boasting in its worldly wealth and goods....we say we have no sin.....we have need of nothing. But yet, Jesus points out to us that we are just the opposite:

(Rev 3:17 KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Jesus is quoting Hosea when he says that we say "I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing...":

(Hosea 12:8 KJV) And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.

"Hosea" means "deliverer".....the Lord comes to save us from our sins that we are not aware of and from those who promote these things....the church in Laodicea did not know of its miserable condition. "Laodicea" = the "people of the judgment."

[shawn]

Some more thoughts....once again, I apologize for the overload:

Colossians mentions the Laodiceans four times....the only other book in the Bible than Revelation. "Laodicea' means "people of the judgment".....or the punishment. The book of Colossians was written to the people of "Colosse" which means "punishment or correction"....which is what Jesus does to the ones he loves in Laodicea....he "chastens" them...punishes them...he corrects them...he tells them to be "zealous":

(Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

They have been "lukewarm"......they have not been "hot" or "zealous" for the Word of God. If we hear the Lord's voice and "open the door:"

(Rev 3:20 KJV) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

There is a clue in the book of Colossians about what "opening the door" means....the "door of utterance:"

Colossians 4: 3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
4 That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

We are to "hear what the Spirit says" and open our mouths to speak the "mystery of Christ." Jesus opens the Scriptures (so that we may understand...to interpret) to us just as he did to the two disciples that were going to "Emmaus" which means "hot spring".....their hearts "burned"...they were hot... as the Scriptures were "opened" to them:

(Luke 24:32 KJV) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

We are to speak what we hear...to open the door....for whatever we "hear" we are to give out in measure to others...and when we do that, we are given more understanding of the Scriptures:

(Mark 4:24 KJV) And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

For the Scriptures will be opened by Jesus....and nothing will be concealed:

Mark 4: 22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus will come into our hearts with understanding and wisdom....he will dine with us and us with him....of knowledge of the opened Scriptures....which is compared to a meal....a supper which are the "true words of God" and not what we been taught for so long:

(Rev 19:9 KJV) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

But Jesus tells the chuch in Laodicea they need to be zealous... to be hot...and repent or be spued out of his mouth:

(Rev 3:16 KJV) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

They will lose out on the opportunity to be a "mouth" for Christ ...to speak the "mystery of Christ"...to have the "door of utterance" opened....if they are spued out. They are "lukewarm"...they are content with the works of their hands...they are rich and need nothing. But whoever seeks to save his life, shall lose it....what profit is there if he gains the whole world and loses his soul (Matthew 16:25,26.)

Psalms 49: 20 A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish.

Jesus counsels the church in Laodicea to buy from him gold tried in fire.....

(Rev 3:18 KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

We are to get understanding...for Christ has the true treasures or wealth of wisdom and knowledge...that we may be truly rich:

Colossians 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

And we are to cloth ourselves with "white raiment"....righteousness...we are to "mortify" the earthly things:

(Col 3:5 KJV) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

At the end of Colossians, we find something interesting.....Paul mentions some people whose names have meanings that tie this book to the Revelation address to the church in Laodicea...at least that is what I think:

(Col 4:9 KJV) With Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They shall make known unto you all things which are done here.

Onesimus…beneficial, useful, profitable

Onesimus….the scriptures are 'profitable'….they 'shall make known unto you all things.'

(2 Tim 3:16 KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(Col 4:10 KJV) Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;)

Aristarchus: broken down by the words 'Ariston' and 'archo'….which together mean 'the best meal of power.' Jesus tells the church in Laodicea that those who open the door, he will 'come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.'

Marcus: 'warlike'….the Word of God judges and makes war. Jesus describes himself to the church in Laodicea ('people of the judgment') as the 'faithful and true' witness.

Marcus was the son of 'Barnabas'…."son of prophecy'….the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10.) It is the witness of Jesus that makes war against those who oppose…he will fight (make war) against them with the sword of his mouth…the Word of God (Rev 2:16.) And…'if he (Jesus) come unto you, receive him'…if you hear his voice, open the door.

(Rev 19:11 KJV) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Heaven is "opened".....the 'faithful and true' witness sits on a white horse and is the ruler…"Archippus' means 'horse-ruler'….and those who follow the Word of God are also on white horses...those who received the testimony of Jesus:

(Col 4:17 KJV) And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, that thou fulfil it.

Ruling…those who overcome will Jesus grant to sit with him in his throne:

(Rev 3:21 KJV) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus is just…."Justus' means 'just:'

(Col 4:11 KJV) And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

He rebukes and disciplines those whom he loves. The chastening of us produces fruits of righteousness…so that we may overcome and be partakers of his holiness (Hebrews 12:10.) We are to "rend our hearts"...circumcision. To be rulers with him in his throne…to follow after him on white horses dressed in white linen…righteousness.

Jesus is the beloved physician….we are healed if we make straight paths for our feet (Hebrews 12:13.) He is the true 'Light'….which is the meaning of 'Luke.'

(Col 4:14 KJV) Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

(Col 4:16 KJV) And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.

[Brother Les]

Ephraim (The Norther House of Israel) and Manasseh were the Heirs to The Birthright.

1Ch 5:1 ¶ Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he [was] the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.


1Ch 5:2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's:)

1Ch 5:1 ¶ Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he [was] the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.


1Ch 5:2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's:)


When the Northern 'House' was swept away by the Assyrian Disporia, they (The Nations) became 'as' Gentiles. We must understand that all of the covenental Promises were made to the 'Whole House' of Israel...The 'Tabernacle of David'. The Promises of the Blessings and the Curses were given to this 'whole house', but only 'a' Remnent (of all 'the Tribes) would be part of the New Covenant Creation. 'Israel' is now 'The Church', The Assembly, The Body, there is neither male nor female, Jew or Gentile, for all are one, in The Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings
Brother Les

[shawn]

Brother Les,

Thank you for your viewpoint....I appreciate the input.

Concerning the Jews (the natural branches).....

(Rom 11:15 KJV) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Jesus is coming to the Jews again….to bring life to the Jews…life in
Christ. Jesus in the book of John told his disciples that he was going to go to Judaea again….because he knew Lazarus was dead. Lazarus is a symbol for the Jews and his death is symbolic of their state of exile from God's presence.

7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

He was going there to raise Lazarus from the dead…this was symbolic of Christ raising the Jews from their 'death' at the appointed time….when the fullness of the gentiles is to be reached. Jesus found Lazarus in a cave:

(John 11:38 KJV) Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

This cave has meaning. There was a cave that Abraham had purchased for his 'dead.' His wife, Sarah, had just died and Abraham needed a place to bury his dead 'out of my sight...out of my presence'….a forward-looking statement….Abraham looked forward and saw that his descendants, the Jews, would be left 'dead' because of their unbelief in Christ. Not only did he need the cave for his wife, but he did this symbolic act to teach the Jews the reason for their exile.

(Gen 23:4 KJV) I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.

The name of this cave that he bought was 'Machpelah'….which means 'double cave.'

(Gen 23:9 KJV) That he may give me the cave of Machpelah, which he hath, which is in the end of his field; for as much money as it is worth he shall give it me for a possession of a buryingplace amongst you.

We find the disciple Thomas going to the Jews….to the cave…with Jesus. 'Thomas' means 'twin'….and was called 'Didymus'….which means 'double'…..so we have the 'double' going to the cave……..Machpelah…the 'double cave.'

(John 11:16 KJV) Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

Abraham buried Sarah in the cave. 'Sarah' means 'mistress'…..and so does 'Martha'.."mistress".... who was Lazarus’s sister. Sarah’s death was symbolic of the life and wisdom that would be lost for the Jews….their house would be left desolate. Abraham had called Sarah his sister…twice… and wisdom is a sister:

(Gen 20:2 KJV) And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.

Wisdom is our sister...

(Prov 7:4 KJV) Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

Sarah died in 'Kirjatharba'….which means 'city of four'…..Lazarus had been dead four days:

(John 11:39 KJV) Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Abraham had bought the cave for 400 shekels of silver:

(Gen 23:15 KJV) My lord, hearken unto me: the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver; what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead.

This was the same number of years the children of Israel were in Egypt. Egypt….being symbolic of sin….the Jews would be left in their sin until Jesus comes to redeem them (raise them into newness of life)…as Moses did with them so long ago. They had been left in their sin because of unbelief although they saw….their sin remained:

(John 9:41 KJV) Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Lazarus was dead for four days.....the children of Israel were in Egypt for 400 years...and it was until the fourth generation that they would come out of Egypt....be redeemed:

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.


400 years represents the completeness of God's judgment...as it did to those in Egypt. In the 4th generation they would be saved....when the fullness of the iniquity of the Amorites would reach the highest level....when the sins of the church has reached the top (the fullness of the gentiles)...then the Jews will be grafted in again.

The leaders of the Jews (at the time) hated Jesus....they rejected him....and so God has visited their sins upon all those after them....until the spiritual fourth generation when Jesus raises them into true life....into God's presence once again.

(Exo 20:5 KJV) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The cave Abraham purchased was in the presence of the children of Heth:

(Gen 23:18 KJV) Unto Abraham for a possession in the presence of the children of Heth, before all that went in at the gate of his city.

"Heth" means "terror"....it is the punishment for not listening to God....when God said listen to His son:

13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Martha went to call her sister Mary when Jesus approached....and she tells her that the "Master is come." The word "master" is "didaskalos" which one of the meanings is "doctor." Jesus came as the "doctor" to raise Lazarus. Jesus called Lazarus's death a "sickness:"

(John 11:4 KJV) When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

King "Asa" of Judah (Asa means "doctor") was a symbol of Christ...he had wars with King Baasha of Israel:

(1 Ki 15:16 KJV) And there was war between Asa and Baasha king of Israel all their days.

"Baasha" means "to stink".....this was also Martha's remark to Jesus about Lazarus being in the grave for 4 days...."he stinketh." Baasha made sure that no one could come to "Asa"...the "doctor".....the leaders of the Jews (Ramah....means height) threw away the key of knowledge so no one under them could come to Christ.

(1 Ki 15:17 KJV) And Baasha king of Israel went up against Judah, and built Ramah, that he might not suffer any to go out or come in to Asa king of Judah.

Baasha built up Ramah with stones (the stone lay over the cave) and timber. And yet Jesus tells those with him to "take away the stone".....take away the unbelief that has kept them from their Messiah:

(John 11:39 KJV) Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Asa also order the proclamation to take away the stone:

.(1 Ki 15:22 KJV) Then king Asa made a proclamation throughout all Judah; none was exempted: and they took away the stones of Ramah, and the timber thereof, wherewith Baasha had builded; and king Asa built with them Geba of Benjamin, and Mizpah.

Jesus comes to raise the Jews into newness of life....into the presence of God. They have been suffering without....in exile...in lamentation. But Christ comes to take away the stone of unbelief....for that is why they had been severed as branches from the tree of life. They will be grafted in again....very soon.

[joel]

Shawn,
I presume that you know that much of what is posted on this forum is based on what is called "preterism". Those who hold to this view, who seem to be the majority posting here, would be inclined to reject much of what you have presented as relating to the Jews.

I have come to understand that it is their view that anyone who comes to God must do so through the church. Israel, and those of Israel, must come in the same way as the Gentiles. I have no disagreement with this, provided that we are referring to anyone who is called now, during this present era.

Where we have a great empasse, is that what is to occur in the future, when God has brought this current era to a conclusion.

As you seem to be saying, God will raise them from the dead, so to speak.

It is this very thing that remains as a basis of dispute between the "preterists" and those who do hold to their views.

Joel

[shawn]

Shawn,
I presume that you know that much of what is posted on this forum is based on what is called "preterism". Those who hold to this view, who seem to be the majority posting here, would be inclined to reject much of what you have presented as relating to the Jews.


Joel,

No, I didn't know that....is this exclusively a "preterist" board? I had to look up the term....I've seen it before but did not know what exactly it meant.

By looking on wikipedia, it seems this view has issues with what is past and future regarding prophecies. I just want to say that there are two of everything....two witnesses for a matter to be established...things are doubled:

(Gen 41:32 KJV) And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

The coming of Jesus (2000 years ago) to the Jews was the "day of the Lord"....for the Jews...in the flesh. They did not know the time of their visitation.

(Luke 19:44 KJV) And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

There is also a coming the "Day of the Lord" in the spirit. He comes in the "clouds of heaven"....the "clouds" are his people....IN the myriads of his saints:


Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

To execute judgment upon ALL....the LIGHTENING.....and to CONVINCE all that are ungodly.....the THUNDER...with the voice of God. They come with the Son of Man (Christ) and as the Son of Man....

(1 John 3:2 KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


they come as the messengers of Christ....the "angels"....who weed out all those things that cause sin and those who refuse to repent....they weed out of HIS kingdom those things and people:

(Mat 13:41 KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

With the coming of Christ...we have the "clouds"....the people....who teach and explain...the "rain"....and they execute judgment....the "lightning"...that shoots out like the arrows of God and with the voice of God...the "thunder"....and with the sign of the Son of Man....the glory that surrounds the throne....the "rainbow"

(Mat 25:31 KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Ezekiel 2: 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.

"Ezekiel"....means "strengthened of God".....and he is called the Son of Man repeatedly. The Son of Man hears the words of God and are to speak to those in the church....to repent:

2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.

[joel]

....is this exclusively a "preterist" board? I had to look up the term....I've seen it before but did not know what exactly it meant.


No, I certainly wouldn't characterize it in that way. I only wanted to give you the benefit of my experience when posting here.

First, though, let me say that Richard is one of most fair minded site administrators with whom I have had the pleasure of communicating.

There are some issues concerning prophecy, Israel's future, and the role of the church which we have discussed, and have experienced a lack of unity concerning our beleifs. But, we don't have a lack of repsect or mutual support concerning our joint, on-going quest of truth.

Your communication of your perspective is encouraged.

Joel

[shawn]

Joel,

Thank you for your response and sharing your experience.

In my brief communication with Richard, I also found him fair and gentle.

Unfortunately, the church is scattered....many denominations and many different ways to interpret the bible. I was brought up in a church (Church of Christ) that thought that all people in churches that had musical instruments were going to hell. We were the "only right" church....imagine that. One day I went to a wedding in a Baptist church building and on the back of a double-sided blackboard in one of the rooms, I saw a heading of a list of churches that read "Let us pray for these WEAK churches"....and there was our church on the top of the list: "pray for the Church of Christ." And so at the tender age of 17 or so I realized that something was completely wrong with this scenario....every church can't be the right one....every doctrine and teaching can't be the right one. Why were we so scattered.....why did we not see eye to eye...why have we judged each other....and got each other going to hell over misinterpretations or lack of an interpretation as I found my particular denomination? My church's motto was "to be silent where the bible is silent".....well I did not find in the bible where they were going "to hell" for playing a musical instrument...in fact I found King David playing instruments in Psalms (songs) to God....imagine the confusion...the outright contradiction.

So over the years of study I now know we have all suffered from a lack of "hearing " the words of God...the church is under a severe famine and the ground is dry and parched. We live in a land where there is very little knowledge....no wisdom. It is my opinion that we are all on a level playing field....we are all equal opportunity wrong...no one is the "right one" over another...that is the beauty of the whole situation. Yet the rain cloud is on the horizon and it is coming to give rain upon the dry earth. The rain came in Noah's day to kill those in the "dry"...meaning "desert":

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.


But now the cloud is coming to bring rain for life....for the true life in God...and we will all see eye to eye. As God told Noah when he brings THE CLOUD of Christ and his "cloud of witnesses":

11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

For the rain of this cloud brings the water of Life....and the world will be covered with this water...the fullness of the knowledge of the Lord:

(Isa 11:9 KJV) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.


The church is in a state of thirst and hunger...and yet Jesus comes again to give us the water of life:

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[joel]

So over the years of study I now know we have all suffered from a lack of "hearing " the words of God.

The lack of hearing seems to be definitely at the root of the problem.

His Word has gone out into all the world.

What do you envision is the impediment?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Joel,

No, I didn't know that....is this exclusively a "preterist" board? I had to look up the term....I've seen it before but did not know what exactly it meant.

Hi Shawn,

Is this an exclusively preterist board? Absolutely NOT! This board is not exclusive in any sense - everyone is welcome (except inveterate troublemakers of course). I wish we had more futurists here so we could have a broader base for discussion.



By looking on wikipedia, it seems this view has issues with what is past and future regarding prophecies. I just want to say that there are two of everything....two witnesses for a matter to be established...things are doubled:

(Gen 41:32 KJV) And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.


Agreed. :thumb: That is how God establishes things. But that doesn't mean that there are two of each and every thing.



The coming of Jesus (2000 years ago) to the Jews was the "day of the Lord"....for the Jews...in the flesh. They did not know the time of their visitation.

(Luke 19:44 KJV) And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

There is also a coming the "Day of the Lord" in the spirit. He comes in the "clouds of heaven"....the "clouds" are his people....IN the myriads of his saints:

Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

To execute judgment upon ALL....the LIGHTENING.....and to CONVINCE all that are ungodly.....the THUNDER...with the voice of God. They come with the Son of Man (Christ) and as the Son of Man....

(1 John 3:2 KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

they come as the messengers of Christ....the "angels"....who weed out all those things that cause sin and those who refuse to repent....they weed out of HIS kingdom those things and people:

(Mat 13:41 KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

With the coming of Christ...we have the "clouds"....the people....who teach and explain...the "rain"....and they execute judgment....the "lightning"...that shoots out like the arrows of God and with the voice of God...the "thunder"....and with the sign of the Son of Man....the glory that surrounds the throne....the "rainbow"

(Mat 25:31 KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Yes, but when you try to interpet those verses in light of the Olivet Discourse, you will find some challenges and then you have to make some hermeneutical choices. There is no simple path. The plain meaning of the OD seems totally obvious to me - it was fulfilled in its entirety in the first century along with Daniel and Revelation, just as Christ said it would be when He said "this generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled." And the angel in Daniel confirmed that, and said those prophecies would all be completed when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. So all the pieces fit very well.

And that's the basic idea of what preterism is about.

What do you think of that?

Richard

[shawn]

Hi Joel and Richard,

Here is what I think…..the Scriptures are fulfilled two-fold. The prophecies were fulfilled first to the Jews….and they will/are being fulfilled (spiritually) to the Gentile church…this is touched upon in Romans:

Romans 2: 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The Jews had the Day of the Lord when Jesus visited them. Many of the leaders did not believe upon him and so their eyes were blinded and their hearts hardened as it was predicted in Isaiah. They have suffered and are suffering the judgment of God….as John the Baptist stated back then that the ax was ALREADY at the root of the trees…and whoever of the Jews did not repent, was to be cast 'into the fire.'

(Mat 3:10 KJV) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

This is also highlighted by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus…..he directed this at the Pharisees which illustrated the loss of the kingdom and the fire of judgment. One age ends (the 'end of the world') for the Jews and another began for the gentiles (riches for the world.)

John the Baptist came in the 'spirit and power' of Elijah….to preach repentance….but ONLY to the Jews….not to the gentile world. He preached in the 'wilderness' of Judea…for the spiritual ground of the Jews had become dry and powerless….they had strayed away from God:

(Rom 5:6 KJV) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The gentiles also will have their Elijah who will preach repentance because as the old saying goes, 'history repeats itself'……the same mistakes of the Jews are repeated by the church until the church becomes absolutely ineffective…powerless just before the coming of Christ.
Just as Jesus was tempted by Satan, so also the church has been. The church was warned not to go to 'sleep'…..because it would fall into temptation:

(Luke 22:46 KJV) And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

The church has fallen asleep….It is my opinion that the church (the body of Christ) has suffered temptations and a type of 'death' and will experience a 'resurrection' just as Christ did. The type of 'death' of the church was highlighted by what happened to Peter:

(John 21:18 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus was telling the church that when it was young, things would be fine…but then there would be a time coming when others (who do not care for the body of Christ) would 'dress' the church and carry it where it did not want to go. This is also touched upon by Paul who warned in tears for THREE YEARS that after him the wolves would enter in and not spare the flock (leading it where it did not want to go)….and also there would be those within the church who would lead others astray:

Acts 20: 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul had told the overseers to 'feed the church'….just as he told Peter….who he calls 'Simon, son of Jonas'….'Simon' means 'hearing' and 'Jonah' means 'dove'….which is the form of the Holy Spirit….so we get from this (Simon son of Jonah) is that those who 'hear what the Spirit says' are to 'feed the sheep' of Christ:

(John 21:17 KJV) He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

In Revelation we find the church in Ephesus had left their 'first love'….they had forsaken their first love:

(Rev 2:4 KJV) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

The 'first love' is WISDOM….it is the 'principal thing'….it is the first thing we should have:

(Prov 4:7 KJV) Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

WISDOM…..'FORSAKE her not……. To LOVE her….' She is our first love….the principal thing...to "leave they first love" is to forsake wisdom:

(Prov 4:6 KJV) Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

When our hearts don’t retain the Lord’s words, we don’t keep his commandments, we have left our first love….the WISDOM of God.

(Prov 4:4 KJV) He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

The church has fallen….it has become ineffective…a 'falling away' (2 Thessalonians 2:3)….just as the church in Ephesus:

(Rev 2:5 KJV) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

'Ephesus' means 'first'….the 'first love' is wisdom…the early church had fallen away and the candlestick has been removed. Wisdom has been removed no longer exists in the church. When there is no wisdom, there is no knowledge…there is no understanding….there is no counsel. There is not much light in the world without wisdom…the church should be the light to the world.

It is no coincidence that the spirit of wisdom is mentioned in 'EPHESIANS'…..to those saints in EPHESUS ('first' church):

(Eph 1:16 KJV) Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Without the light in the world (the candlestick has been removed), there is darkness…or night….where all sleep and do not the works of God….the church is doing the works of others who have led it astray…it is the 'night' of the church so to speak:

(John 9:4 KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

And again, I have likened the church to Peter…..Peter and other disciples went fishing at NIGHT and caught nothing….before Jesus came in the morning (he is the bright, 'morning' star) and gave them instruction (the light of knowledge) by which they caught many fish. They had "no meat"....no knowledge:

(John 21:3 KJV) Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

When the church fell 'asleep'…..a sleep of 'death'….it fell into the temptation and power of Satan…..for he was given power to test the church….to sift it as wheat….just as he did to Peter:

(Luke 22:31 KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

This testing of the church is shown to what was written to the church in 'Smyrna.' 'Smyrna' is 'myrrh' which happened to be a burial spice that was used on the physical body of Christ. Jesus once 'was dead and is alive'….a comfort to the church who will be made 'alive' again from its 'death:'

(Rev 2:8 KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

The church was and is tested by Satan. The word 'some' (as in 'some of you) does not appear in the Greek:

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Also note the 'death' theme of the message to the church in 'Smyrna'….'myrrh'…the burial spice. Jesus tells the church to be faithful unto death….just as he told Peter that he prayed that he would remain faithful during his time of testing:

(Luke 22:32 KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And note Peter’s response to Jesus:

(Luke 22:33 KJV) And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

The church also would go into 'prison and to death'….just as the church in Smyrna was told…we are to 'hear what the Spirit' says to the churches.

Satan has tested the church….sifting it as wheat….just as he did to Job and to Christ. 'Job' means 'hated'….and Jesus was 'hated'….and so his church (the body of Christ) is also 'hated.' This is when Satan asked God for permission to test the body of Christ:

Job 2: 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Jesus’ bone and his flesh is the church….for we are the body of Christ…and it is being tested by Satan…this is why the church is in the condition it is today. But Jesus is the perfect one….and he comes to redeem his church…to wake up the church from its sleep…from 'death'. He has the keys to this condition of 'Hades' and death…to let the church out so that we may have life and do the works of God:

(Rev 1:18 KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

'Hades' is the Greek equivalent to 'Sheol'…which is the 'grave.' And the condition of the grave of the church is this….a place where there is no wisdom, no knowledge, and no works of God…a place of darkness:

(Eccl 9:10 KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Saul, before he was converted, made 'havoc' of the church....he entered EVERY house and put them in prison….just as Satan has done to the church:

(Acts 8:3 KJV) As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

It is no accident that 'Saul' means 'to ask'….for that is what Satan did…to ask God for permission to sift the church as wheat…to try it…to test it. 'Saul' also comes from the word 'shaal' which also happens to be where the word 'SHEOL' comes from….so we have a word play on Saul and Sheol…the grave. Saul persecuted the church 'unto the death'….as Jesus stated to the church in Smyrna….be faithful 'unto the death.' Saul delivered those he persecute into prisons….so has Satan put the church into spiritual 'prisons.'

Acts 22: 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Saul also got permission from the high priest to do these things…Satan obtained permission from God to test the body of Christ:

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

(Acts 9:1 KJV) And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

[joel]

Shawn,

I followed every word of your post, and, bear witness to the truth that was contained in it.

By the observation that the church is "in sleep", spiritually speaking, what is your opinion of what/how "she", as His body of flesh and bone, is to do to prepare "herself"?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Joel and Richard,

Here is what I think…..the Scriptures are fulfilled two-fold. The prophecies were fulfilled first to the Jews….and they will/are being fulfilled (spiritually) to the Gentile church…this is touched upon in Romans:

Romans 2: 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


Good morning Shawn,

First, let me say that I really enjoyed your post and found it filled with profound insights. But I need to ask, what do you mean by "Gentile church"? That term appears nowhere in Scripture, and the idea seems entirely contrary to the plain teaching which is that in Christ - that is, in the Church which is the Body of Christ - there is no "Jew" or "Gentile." Where did you get this idea of a "Gentile Church"? And what does it mean? The Church of Christ began as the believing Remnant of Israel - it was purely Jewish in its beginning. It was the Church, it was Jewish. Then God began to graft Gentiles into the Jewish Church, and that's how it has been ever since.



The Jews had the Day of the Lord when Jesus visited them. Many of the leaders did not believe upon him and so their eyes were blinded and their hearts hardened as it was predicted in Isaiah. They have suffered and are suffering the judgment of God….as John the Baptist stated back then that the ax was ALREADY at the root of the trees…and whoever of the Jews did not repent, was to be cast 'into the fire.'

(Mat 3:10 KJV) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

This is also highlighted by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus…..he directed this at the Pharisees which illustrated the loss of the kingdom and the fire of judgment. One age ends (the 'end of the world') for the Jews and another began for the gentiles (riches for the world.)

Amen! That seems exactly correct.



John the Baptist came in the 'spirit and power' of Elijah….to preach repentance….but ONLY to the Jews….not to the gentile world. He preached in the 'wilderness' of Judea…for the spiritual ground of the Jews had become dry and powerless….they had strayed away from God:

(Rom 5:6 KJV) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The gentiles also will have their Elijah who will preach repentance because as the old saying goes, 'history repeats itself'……the same mistakes of the Jews are repeated by the church until the church becomes absolutely ineffective…powerless just before the coming of Christ.

I can see that as a possibility, but it seems entirely speculative, and so I don't think anyone should build a "doctrine" on that idea.




Just as Jesus was tempted by Satan, so also the church has been. The church was warned not to go to 'sleep'…..because it would fall into temptation:

(Luke 22:46 KJV) And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

The church has fallen asleep….It is my opinion that the church (the body of Christ) has suffered temptations and a type of 'death' and will experience a 'resurrection' just as Christ did.

That is a fascinating parallel, and it feels true to me on some level, though I am not sure that I should attempt to use it to predict the future.



The type of 'death' of the church was highlighted by what happened to Peter:

(John 21:18 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus was telling the church that when it was young, things would be fine…but then there would be a time coming when others (who do not care for the body of Christ) would 'dress' the church and carry it where it did not want to go. This is also touched upon by Paul who warned in tears for THREE YEARS that after him the wolves would enter in and not spare the flock (leading it where it did not want to go)….and also there would be those within the church who would lead others astray:

Acts 20: 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul had told the overseers to 'feed the church'….just as he told Peter….who he calls 'Simon, son of Jonas'….'Simon' means 'hearing' and 'Jonah' means 'dove'….which is the form of the Holy Spirit….so we get from this (Simon son of Jonah) is that those who 'hear what the Spirit says' are to 'feed the sheep' of Christ:

(John 21:17 KJV) He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


Again, those are some excellent applications of typology to the Church. But they are too general to be used to predict the future. We just don't got the brain-power to do things like that, and I don't think it is God's intent that we try. The purpose of prophecy is to prove that Christ is Messiah and the Bible from God. Some people think prophecy is needed to warn God's poeple of dangers that are coming, but we know that's not correct because people have been trying to use prophecy that way for centuries (especially in the last century) and have ALWAYS been wrong. Thus, there is no value in such warnings since no one can discern truth from falsehood in them.



In Revelation we find the church in Ephesus had left their 'first love'….they had forsaken their first love:

(Rev 2:4 KJV) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

The 'first love' is WISDOM….it is the 'principal thing'….it is the first thing we should have:

(Prov 4:7 KJV) Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

WISDOM…..'FORSAKE her not……. To LOVE her….' She is our first love….the principal thing...to "leave they first love" is to forsake wisdom:

(Prov 4:6 KJV) Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

When our hearts don’t retain the Lord’s words, we don’t keep his commandments, we have left our first love….the WISDOM of God.

(Prov 4:4 KJV) He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

The church has fallen….it has become ineffective…a 'falling away' (2 Thessalonians 2:3)….just as the church in Ephesus:

(Rev 2:5 KJV) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

'Ephesus' means 'first'….the 'first love' is wisdom…the early church had fallen away and the candlestick has been removed. Wisdom has been removed no longer exists in the church. When there is no wisdom, there is no knowledge…there is no understanding….there is no counsel. There is not much light in the world without wisdom…the church should be the light to the world.

I was tracking well with you up to this point, but I don't understand how you have concluded when the Church "fell away." Christ was speaking to the first century church of Ephesus. How is it that we are supposed to know to apply his words to our current time? What would have stopped Martin Luther from applying them to his time in the 16th century, or Augustine in the 5th? And if those words are applicable to the church at all times and in all places, then they tell us nothing unique about our time and place.



It is no coincidence that the spirit of wisdom is mentioned in 'EPHESIANS'…..to those saints in EPHESUS ('first' church):

(Eph 1:16 KJV) Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Without the light in the world (the candlestick has been removed), there is darkness…or night….where all sleep and do not the works of God….the church is doing the works of others who have led it astray…it is the 'night' of the church so to speak:

(John 9:4 KJV) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

And again, I have likened the church to Peter…..Peter and other disciples went fishing at NIGHT and caught nothing….before Jesus came in the morning (he is the bright, 'morning' star) and gave them instruction (the light of knowledge) by which they caught many fish. They had "no meat"....no knowledge:

(John 21:3 KJV) Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

When the church fell 'asleep'…..a sleep of 'death'….it fell into the temptation and power of Satan…..for he was given power to test the church….to sift it as wheat….just as he did to Peter:

(Luke 22:31 KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

This testing of the church is shown to what was written to the church in 'Smyrna.' 'Smyrna' is 'myrrh' which happened to be a burial spice that was used on the physical body of Christ. Jesus once 'was dead and is alive'….a comfort to the church who will be made 'alive' again from its 'death:'

(Rev 2:8 KJV) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

The church was and is tested by Satan. The word 'some' (as in 'some of you) does not appear in the Greek:

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Also note the 'death' theme of the message to the church in 'Smyrna'….'myrrh'…the burial spice. Jesus tells the church to be faithful unto death….just as he told Peter that he prayed that he would remain faithful during his time of testing:

(Luke 22:32 KJV) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And note Peter’s response to Jesus:

(Luke 22:33 KJV) And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

The church also would go into 'prison and to death'….just as the church in Smyrna was told…we are to 'hear what the Spirit' says to the churches.

Satan has tested the church….sifting it as wheat….just as he did to Job and to Christ. 'Job' means 'hated'….and Jesus was 'hated'….and so his church (the body of Christ) is also 'hated.' This is when Satan asked God for permission to test the body of Christ:

Job 2: 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Jesus’ bone and his flesh is the church….for we are the body of Christ…and it is being tested by Satan…this is why the church is in the condition it is today. But Jesus is the perfect one….and he comes to redeem his church…to wake up the church from its sleep…from 'death'. He has the keys to this condition of 'Hades' and death…to let the church out so that we may have life and do the works of God:

(Rev 1:18 KJV) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

'Hades' is the Greek equivalent to 'Sheol'…which is the 'grave.' And the condition of the grave of the church is this….a place where there is no wisdom, no knowledge, and no works of God…a place of darkness:

(Eccl 9:10 KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Saul, before he was converted, made 'havoc' of the church....he entered EVERY house and put them in prison….just as Satan has done to the church:

(Acts 8:3 KJV) As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

It is no accident that 'Saul' means 'to ask'….for that is what Satan did…to ask God for permission to sift the church as wheat…to try it…to test it. 'Saul' also comes from the word 'shaal' which also happens to be where the word 'SHEOL' comes from….so we have a word play on Saul and Sheol…the grave. Saul persecuted the church 'unto the death'….as Jesus stated to the church in Smyrna….be faithful 'unto the death.' Saul delivered those he persecute into prisons….so has Satan put the church into spiritual 'prisons.'

Acts 22: 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Saul also got permission from the high priest to do these things…Satan obtained permission from God to test the body of Christ:

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

(Acts 9:1 KJV) And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Shawn, I absolutely love your astute insights into the symbolic application of Scripture to the Church. But we do have a real difference with the idea that we are living in the "end times." It seems that your parallels and typology would fit the church at every age and have nothing to do with where we are in history.

I look forward to discussing this more with you,

God bless you as you study His most excellent Word!

Richard

[Brother Les]

Posted by Shawn

Joel,

Thank you for your response and sharing your experience.

In my brief communication with Richard, I also found him fair and gentle.

Unfortunately, the church is scattered....many denominations and many different ways to interpret the bible. I was brought up in a church (Church of Christ) that thought that all people in churches that had musical instruments were going to hell. We were the "only right" church....imagine that. One day I went to a wedding in a Baptist church building and on the back of a double-sided blackboard in one of the rooms, I saw a heading of a list of churches that read "Let us pray for these WEAK churches"....and there was our church on the top of the list: "pray for the Church of Christ." And so at the tender age of 17 or so I realized that something was completely wrong with this scenario....every church can't be the right one....every doctrine and teaching can't be the right one. Why were we so scattered.....why did we not see eye to eye...why have we judged each other....and got each other going to hell over misinterpretations or lack of an interpretation as I found my particular denomination? My church's motto was "to be silent where the bible is silent".....well I did not find in the bible where they were going "to hell" for playing a musical instrument...in fact I found King David playing instruments in Psalms (songs) to God....imagine the confusion...the outright contradiction.

So over the years of study I now know we have all suffered from a lack of "hearing " the words of God...the church is under a severe famine and the ground is dry and parched. We live in a land where there is very little knowledge....no wisdom. It is my opinion that we are all on a level playing field....we are all equal opportunity wrong...no one is the "right one" over another...that is the beauty of the whole situation. Yet the rain cloud is on the horizon and it is coming to give rain upon the dry earth. The rain came in Noah's day to kill those in the "dry"...meaning "desert":


Blessings to you Shawn,
I too, grew up in the Church of Christ. I married a Southern Baptist and 'joined' their Denomination. (The Coc, say they are 'not' a 'Denomination'....yes they are) The Coc instilled in my mind to do one thing very well, study the 'New Testement'...."We are a New Testement Church as the Old Testement has been 'abolished'.....No...it was never 'abolished'...it was "Fulfilled"...And 'The New Creation' was manifested. The problem with studying 'The New Testement' and leaving out 'The Old' .....is that 'The Old' is The scripture of and for 'The New'....Missing the Contexts and understanding of 'the Old', hamstrings the reader of 'the New'....The 'Promises of Blessings and curses were always given to 'Israel', and within the 'First Testement', 'Israel' was and is 'The Church'...The Assembley....The Body of Christ/God... and within The Second Testement, 'Israel', still is 'The Church', The Assembly, The Body of Christ/God. There was no, 'replacement' of 'Israel' ((you seem to want to call 'The Jews', 'all' 'Israel'...they are not) The Coc, does have a few 'Conservative' ideas and are 'hard nosed' about 'their' doctrine, but they mean well and are 'blinded' to the fact that both Testements (First and Second) go together as one.

'The Body' of God/Christ is only one....there is not 'Jew' nor 'Greek'...no Male nor Female. You have seemed to stay with the Coc 'doctrine' that 'Jews' and 'Gentiles' are completely seperate and can not be combined. The Eschatology that is spoken of within all of the pages of The Bible concerning 'Israel', is Covenental.

I look forward to more of your posts.

Blessings
Brother Les

PS

Welcome to the Forum. Glad you are here.

[Brother Les]

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Hello Shawn,
Who is the 'you' in Veres 43? Verse 45 tells 'us'.....

The 'Kingdom' was taken away from 'the Nation' of Levis, Sect of the Sadducces and Sect of the Pharisees and 'given' to 'the Sect of The Way". This was not a transfer from 'the blood of Abraham' to 'the blood of Gentiles'....but from those who did not have 'The Faith of Abraham', to, those who did.


Ephraim would become greater than the firstborn.....his seed shall become a "multitude of nations." This is like saying a "multitude of gentiles" or the "fullness of gentiles". It is only after the "fullness of the gentiles" comes in that the natural branches, the Jews, would be grafted in again....we have not "replaced" the Jews:


The 'Natural Branches' that were 'cut off'....was 'Ephraim'. God had 'put them away' and had given them a Bill of Divorce (Hosea). They (Ephraim) were no longer under The Mosaic Covenant and could not be 'graffted' back into it. They were able to be 'graffted' back into the Tabornacle of David (all thirteen tribes) when the Marriage happened at the 'End of The Age' (old Covenant Age). 'Juduah' was still in 'Covenant' (Mosaic Covenant) with God during the time of the writtings of the 'Second Testement' (Matthew - Revelation)

Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.


Hbr 9:11 ¶ But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;



Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


The 'Sect of The Way' (Jews) stayed in 'Covenant' with God, by transitioning from The Mosaic to The Messianic by following what was written in Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.


The 'Fullness of the Gentiles' (nations) were the 'Tribes of The House of Israel' (Northern) being 'Graffted' back in 'Covenant' with God at 'The full end' of the Mosaic Age' and the Full 'institution' of The Messianic Age' (ie. when the Mosaic Temple Cultus System was completely destroyed)

Blessings
Brother Les

[shawn]

Hi Joel,

Thanks for reading my long-winded post...sorry for the length. If you have found any truth, I give glory to God.


What the church needs to do is to sit down at the feet of Jesus and to listen and understand his words....his instruction...his counsel. We need to be like Mary who sat at the feet of Jesus and not be like Martha who was overly busy.....burdened down with many things....and neglecting the most important....hearing the words of Jesus....whose knowledge can produce a great effect on the world.


Luke 10: 38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

We need to get rid of our "wonderful works" that are done in the name of the Lord.....but are really motivated by earthly ambitions. It is the affairs of men that Satan is concerned with and not the things of God:

(Mark 8:33 KJV) But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

It is the "things that be of men" that stain our garments....it is the "things that be of men" that we should hate.....we should hate the things that stain our garments:

(Jude 1:23 KJV) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


Some say "Sardis" means "prince of joy"....I tend to agree....because it is with "joy" that the church does its wonderful works...thinking that by them they are "alive"....but really they are "dead"....their works are not perfect before God:


Revelation 3: 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



Being joyous in "wonderful works" is like being drunk with wine......just as Belshazzar drunk wine and praised the gods of silver, gold, brass, etc......things that did not glorify God.

Daniel 5: 22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this;
23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified[/B]:

Drunk with the wine of Babylon:
[B]
(Rev 17:2 KJV) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Revelation

We should be children of the day.....those who are drunken are drunken "in the night".....the "night" of the church....those who "sleep"....sleep "in the night."

(1 Th 5:5 KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


The "evil servant" gets drunk with drunken and feeds not the church of God....he smites his brothers and sisters:

Matthew 24: 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

He smites them as the sun and heat.....giving no spiritual food or water to those underneath them....but Jesus comes and will have mercy on them....and will lead them to spring of water:

Isaiah 49: 9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Show yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

The people of God are hungry and thirsty.....the sun....the heat beats them....those rulers in high places do not feed the people...they give sour wine to the people...wormwood and gall....just as they gave Jesus on the cross when he said "I thirst."

Rev 7: 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

With Jesus' instruction, we can weed out all those things that cause iniquity and those who do them....out of his kingdom......then we can SHINE in the kingdom of the father:

(Mat 13:43 KJV) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Like the brightness of stars, we can lead others to righteousness:

(Dan 12:3 KJV) And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


I'm out of time....sorry Richard and Brother Les....

[joel]

What the church needs to do is to sit down at the feet of Jesus and to listen and understand his words....his instruction...his counsel.

Amen.

I'm right with you on this.

Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles. We should begin to listen where he begins to teach us. Romans is his first letter in sequence. That would be a good place to start. Don't you think?

Joel

[shawn]

Richard,

Thank you for the continued discussion.

Ok, I concede, I shouldn't have used "Gentile" and "church" together...that is rather confusing....I should have just left it at "gentiles."


We are living in the 'last days'of this age……for many ask/asked where is 'the promise of his coming?'…..since the fathers (of the church) have gone asleep (the fathers went to sleep and so are we to this day)…all things have continued the same from the 'beginning of the creation'…..the beginning of THIS age….the beginning of the 'church' world:

(2 Pet 3:4 KJV) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

There are comparisons between the coming of Moses from down off the mountain and the coming of Jesus…..'where is the promise of his coming'….was also the common response to Moses absence:

(Exo 32:1 KJV) And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

And again there were those who saw Moses delaying and there are those today who see Jesus delaying his coming:

(Mat 24:48 KJV) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

And when they saw Moses delaying, they wanted to make a calf….and they did this by breaking off their gold earrings:

2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

The 'golden earrings' are the 'wise reprovers'…..they should have listened to them…for the Levites did not join in with them and who knew what became of Hur (meaning "white linen" ...righteousness).....likewise, there are those of the church who have broken off the wise teachers from their hearing…history has repeated itself:

(Prov 25:12 KJV) As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.

And again….there is no 'hearing' of the Word of God today…sound doctrine is not endured in the church….this time has come as prophesied. The "wise reprovers" are no where to be found:

(2 Tim 4:3 KJV) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

We are told to be 'mindful of the words' which were spoken by the prophets and the commandments of the apostles…..why? Because they still have important relevance today….for we are in the 'last days' of this age….just as the Jews were in the 'last days' of that age….we have come almost full circle…the wheel has made almost one revolution:

(2 Pet 3:2 KJV) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

In the last days scoffers would come….walking after their own lusts (within the church):

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

It was the children of Israel themselves who scoffed while Moses was away on the mountain….they rose up to 'play'….the Hebrew word is 'tsachaq'…which means to 'to laugh outright in scorn' or in a mocking way:

(Exo 32:6 KJV) And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

The calf wasn’t just any calf worship…they thought they were worshipping the One True God by what they made with their own hands….for they had a feast to the Lord and built an altar in front of it:

(Exo 32:4 KJV) And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

Likewise, the church is guilty of the same thing. Our works are not perfect before God just as theirs weren’t:

(Rev 3:2 KJV) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

We need to stay clear of the 'peace and safety' message.

(1 Th 5:3 KJV) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

We need to clearly be 'mindful' of the prophets….for they are our warnings of the coming wrath of God upon those who despise the government of God…especially those in the church:

(2 Pet 2:9 KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

The 'peace and safety' message says that none of these prophecies of wrath will come upon them..."no evil shall come upon you":

(Jer 23:17 KJV) They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

We are 'to hear what the Spirit says'….for what the Spirit said to the early churches in Asia also applies to us today. Wickedness has a cup to fill….the mystery of iniquity was already at work in the early church….and it progresses until it is full grown.

2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Lord comes with the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the truth. We are to hear his words and overcome what has hindered us…..he has the keys to Hades and death….we are to wash our robes in his blood and make them white….for if we sin willfully after we have received the 'knowledge of the truth'….'knowledge' being the word 'epignosis'….which means 'full discernment' as compared to 'gnosis' which is a weaker act of knowing something.

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

For through out this age, the church has known things only in part….even those things vanished because of the trial of the church by Satan….all the church had was to love each other..for that is what is important…and then the perfect comes…the perfect, complete knowledge (epignosis) of the Lord who comes with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his knowledge.

Just as Moses came down off the mountain, Jesus will descend from heaven….the word 'heaven' in Greek is 'ouranos' which can be literally read 'mountain of heaven or sky.'

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord descends with a "shout"....the "shout of victory"...for when Moses came down there was a noise coming from the people....but it was neither a voice of victory nor for defeat but the singing of blasphemy.

(Exo 32:18 KJV) And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

And Moses then burned the calf in the fire:

(Exo 32:20 KJV) And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strowed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

Likewise, the works will be burned up in the fire.....when the Lord comes as a thief in the night (the "night of the church")....surprising those who weren't expecting him....just as they did not expect Moses.........."where is the promise of his coming?"

(2 Pet 3:10 KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

When Moses came unexpectedly, he found the people uncovered...and their enemies saw their shame....their blasphemy....their hypocrisy:

(Exo 32:25 KJV) And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)

And Jesus warns us also:

(Rev 16:15 KJV) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

(Rev 3:18 KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The world will see the shame of those left behind in Babylon (we are to come out and not share in her sins and plagues)....because God will expose her sins to the world...who will heap scorn upon her.

Nahum 3: 5 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will show the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.
6 And I will cast abominable filth upon thee, and make thee vile, and will set thee as a gazingstock.

For God will give them over to a "reprobate" or rejected mind to be filled with all unrighteousness...

Romans 1: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

(Rev 22:15 KJV) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Let us prepare ourselves and wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb...let us return to God and He will show mercy and truth and justice.

[shawn]

'The Body' of God/Christ is only one....there is not 'Jew' nor 'Greek'...no Male nor Female. You have seemed to stay with the Coc 'doctrine' that 'Jews' and 'Gentiles' are completely seperate and can not be combined. The Eschatology that is spoken of within all of the pages of The Bible concerning 'Israel', is Covenental.

Hi Brother Les,

I do think that all Israel will be combined one day under our Lord....just like under King David:

1 Chronicles 11:1 Then all Israel gathered themselves to David unto Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh.
2 And moreover in time past, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel.

I think all Israel is both Jews and Gentiles.........and we have not been combined yet....the Jews have the promises that are not realized yet...but it is coming soon. In my opinion, we are spiritually the "stick of Joseph" who will be put with the stick of Judah....the Jews....and therefore we become the stick of Judah...and we will be one in the hand of Christ:


(Ezek 37:19 KJV) Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

For God will assemble us all under Christ:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.


All Israel will be saved.....saved from what? The Jews from their grave and To be redeemed from The enemy within the church for the gentiles (and I'm sure there are also Jews in the church)....to be saved from our idols and detestable things in the church...and from those who promote these things....from wicked spiritual rulers in high places. Look at this parable in this light....the "widow" is the church who is powerless because of the adversaries within the church:

Luke 18: 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


Will the Lord find faith when he comes?

[Brother Les]

Shawn posted
We are living in the 'last days'of this age……for many ask/asked where is 'the promise of his coming?'…..since the fathers (of the church) have gone asleep (the fathers went to sleep and so are we to this day)…all things have continued the same from the 'beginning of the creation'…..the beginning of THIS age….the beginning of the 'church' world:


The First Testement was pointing to 'The Last Days'. The Second Testement was written 'during' 'The Last Days' and 'The End of The Age'....Do you not understand the 'The Last Days' and 'Age Ending' was the Mosaic Law and Mosaic Age? We are now in The Messianic Age...that has no end.


I do think that all Israel will be combined one day under our Lord....just like under King David:


I see that 'all Israel', "WAS" brought back together in the First Century.....


I think all Israel is both Jews and Gentiles.........and we have not been combined yet....the Jews have the promises that are not realized yet...but it is coming soon. In my opinion, we are spiritually the "stick of Joseph" who will be put with the stick of Judah....the Jews....and therefore we become the stick of Judah...and we will be one in the hand of Christ:

First century 'Jews', were 'part' of 'Israel' and many of the first century 'Gentiles' were elements of Ephraim.....they combined to follow The Messiah....'The Way'....and as only 'a Remenent' was promised...'Marriage'....Salvation....Ressurection ....and 'a' Kingdom....'all' of 'The Promises'....have been 'Fulfilled'. Christians, are 'a' Nation...both physically and Spiritualy.



What in your understanding has not been 'Fulfilled'?


Blessings
Brother Les

[Rose]

The First Testement was pointing to 'The Last Days'. The Second Testement was written 'during' 'The Last Days' and 'The End of The Age'....Do you not understand the 'The Last Days' and 'Age Ending' was the Mosaic Law and Mosaic Age? We are now in The Messianic Age...that has no end.

I see that 'all Israel', "WAS" brought back together in the First Century.....

First century 'Jews', were 'part' of 'Israel' and many of the first century 'Gentiles' were elements of Ephraim.....they combined to follow The Messiah....'The Way'....and as only 'a Remenent' was promised...'Marriage'....Salvation....Ressurection ....and 'a' Kingdom....'all' of 'The Promises'....have been 'Fulfilled'. Christians, are 'a' Nation...both physically and Spiritualy.



What in your understanding has not been 'Fulfilled'?


Blessings
Brother Les

Very well stated!

Rose

[Brother Les]

Resurrection

I do not think that he refers to the resurrection of the body, but to the resurrection of the soul in this life; to the regaining of the image which Adam lost. Adam Clarke

QUOTE 10

"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matt. 16:28; cf. Mk. 9:1; Lk. 9:27)
QUOTE 14

"The kingdom of God is at hand." (Mk. 1:15



the "abomination of desolation":
anything that involved the worship of false gods in sacred places:


PROPHECY/COMMAND

World is the Greek­ - oikoumene

Command:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. (Matthew 24:14 NASB)

Fuldilled:
But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Romans 10:18 NASB)



World is the Greek - kosmos

Command:
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16:15 NASB)

Fulfilled:
which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; (Colossians 1:6 NASB)


Creation is the Greek - ktsis
Command:
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16:15 NASB)

Fufilled:
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (Colossians 1:23 NASB)


Nations is the Greek­ - ethnos
Command:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19 NASB)

Fulfilled:
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; (Romans 16:26 NASB)


Earth is the Greek­ - ge
Command:
but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (Acts 1:8 NASB)

Fulfilled:
But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Romans 10:18 NASB)




When Jesus spoke of the sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light, and the stars falling from heaven, He was not referring to the end of the solar system, but of the complete dissolution of the Jewish state.

borrowed from
http://www.worldwithoutend.info/start/articles/abomination-chart.htm


Blessings
Brother Les

[joel]

Shawn,

As you continue to participate in the discussions, it will become ever so more apparent that which I have called "the impasse" between those who call themselves "preterists", and those who view Israel as continuing on.

Brother Les' final comment summarizes the preterist viewpoint concerning this issue;

the complete dissolution of the Jewish state

I have continued to study Paul's letters as the key texts to understand these matters. That is why I have suggested that a discussion of Paul's Romans letter be in order as he is the authority on these matters to us, the body of Christ, which is the church.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Shawn,

As you continue to participate in the discussions, it will become ever so more apparent that which I have called "the impasse" between those who call themselves "preterists", and those who view Israel as continuing on.


Hello my friend!


I think we all find the "impasse" a little frustrating. I have worked hard to locate the exact point at which our unity breaks down. You cite the comment by Brother Les concerning the "complete dissolution of the Jewish state" as a good "summary" of the preterist postition. I think that very well may be correct, though I would nuance it to specify that it was not merely the "Jewish state" but rather the first covenant that defined them as "Jews" that was completely dissolved, as it is written:
Ephesians 2:14-16 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down (luo = dissolved) the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Christ the Testator died, so the New Covenant came into force, correct?

And then the Old Covenant vanished away?

What then defines the "Jew"? Where is the biblical promise to carnal "Jews" who were not of the remnant that believed in the day of their visitation?



I have continued to study Paul's letters as the key texts to understand these matters. That is why I have suggested that a discussion of Paul's Romans letter be in order as he is the authority on these matters to us, the body of Christ, which is the church.

Joel
Perhaps it would be a good time to start fresh Joel? You could open a thread beginning at Romans 5 and we could follow your lead. You have thought deeply about this for many years, and your presentation and guidance on these issues would benefit us all. Of course, I can't claim I'll be able to reign in all my "feist" but I'll certainly do my best!

God bless you my friend and brother,

Richard

[shawn]

Posted by Joel:

As you continue to participate in the discussions, it will become ever so more apparent that which I have called "the impasse" between those who call themselves "preterists", and those who view Israel as continuing on.


Joel,

Yes....I see "the impasse".....good choice of words. How is your view on this? Are you leaning toward the "preterist" view? Yes, the epistle to the Romans is a good place to start....but then again, everyone already knows what it says...it is the interpretation that is different.

Maybe a new thread should be started...and let's remember we are all brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what are views are.

I'm going to be gone for a few days...until then I look forward to discussing the matter a little more....maybe we can all learn more about this.

Shawn

[Brother Les]

Posted by Joel

Brother Les' final comment summarizes the preterist viewpoint concerning this issue;


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Les
the complete dissolution of the Jewish state


Blessings Joel, Shawn, Richard.

The post of mine was from a clip by David Curtis. He was showing 'The Command' and 'The Fulfillment'....

of What....?

The 'Coming' of The End of 'The Age'....

And what comings with that?

Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:29 And if ye Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.


Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, [B]as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


This 'Thread' is about Ephraim....The 'Nations', 'Gentiles', 'Greeks', those of 'The Disporia'...who came to 'The Christ'....'They'....'Ephraim'...did not 'start' the Second Testement 'Church'.....it was 'there' a long time before 'they' came along. 'The Sect of The Way' was brought forth (a book that I am reading says that there were 24 different 'Sects' in the Jewish Culture in the First Century) This 'Sect' of The Way' was 100% Jewish in its' following The Temple Tradition + Jesus.....As their 'Messiah'.....No 'big' 'Revelation' 'here', as several First Century people 'claimed' the be 'the messiah' of Israel....Are 'The Jews' , still looking for 'another messiah'?....

It seems to be stated that they are....to this very day...

Scripture does not bear out 'a' delay of over 2,000 years for building 'the Tabernacle of David...
It has been done and there is no going back to 'The Shadow'.

Address the rest of the post from David Curtis and not only one line....
Do you not understand that the 'Jewish Temple Worship Cultus' had to be destroyed in the First Century, in order to Save...All Israel....All Israel WAS Resurrected and Judauh became a part of that Body....

Blessings
Brother Les

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good morning Brother Les,

Very lucid points! :thumb:


This 'Thread' is about Ephraim....The 'Nations', 'Gentiles', 'Greeks', those of 'The Disporia'...who came to 'The Christ'....'They'....'Ephraim'...did not 'start' the Second Testement 'Church'.....it was 'there' a long time before 'they' came along. 'The Sect of The Way' was brought forth (a book that I am reading says that there were 24 different 'Sects' in the Jewish Culture in the First Century) This 'Sect' of The Way' was 100% Jewish in its' following The Temple Tradition + Jesus.....As their 'Messiah'.....No 'big' 'Revelation' 'here', as several First Century people 'claimed' the be 'the messiah' of Israel....Are 'The Jews' , still looking for 'another messiah'?....

It seems to be stated that they are....to this very day...

I highlight those points because they seem to indicate the way past the "impasse." The Christian Church was entirely Jewish from its foundation. This is the key. The Jewish Christian Church is the remnant of Israel that believed God in the day of visitation. Gentiles were grafted into the Jewish Church of Christ, the Olive Tree. Unbelieving Jews could be grafted in again if they continued not in unbeleif.



Scripture does not bear out 'a' delay of over 2,000 years for building 'the Tabernacle of David...
It has been done and there is no going back to 'The Shadow'.

This also is my understanding of Acts 15:

Acts 15:14-17 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
The "rebuilding of the Tabernacle of David" refers to the inclusion of the Gentiles in the Church of Christ. That's what it means.

Richard

[Brother Les]

Posted by Ram
I highlight those points because they seem to indicate the way past the "impasse." The Christian Church was entirely Jewish from its foundation. This is the key. The Jewish Christian Church is the remnant of Israel that believed God in the day of visitation. Gentiles were grafted into the Jewish Church of Christ, the Olive Tree. Unbelieving Jews could be grafted in again if they continued not in unbeleif.


The book that I am reading (Written by a Rabbi) "The Origins of Judaism", indicates that 'all' of the 'Sects' (Sadducces, Pharisees, Essenes (sp), The Way, ect.) were all fully understood to be 'Israelite Jewish' and all of these 'Sects' included 'Prosylites'....the many 'Sects' of 'Monolithic Jews', were 'under' the same 'type' of unbrella as in thinking of the many 'Christian Sects' that abound today....

He said, that his belief that the major falling out between 'Christian Jews' ('we tend to use the reverse "Jewish Christians"...but should not....these are 'a' 'Sect' (section) of Jews..ie. Messiahtain Jews....) and the 'Temple Complex 'Sects', was 'Nationalism' and the willingness to 'fight' for a 'Worldly Kingdom'....Jesus said, Render unto Caesar, what is Caesar, and to God what is Gods.....The Author said that this went against the grain of the Temple Cultus ideals....Nationalism.....was the dividing line.
(as per the Author of this book)


It seems to still be the Jewish dividing line today also.....

Blessings
Brother Les