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David M

07-17-2013, 05:38 PM

The serpent in the Garden of Eden is well-known to us. However, I have a couple of questions;

1. Is this serpent to be taken as literal or can it be seen in a figurative sense in which personification can also apply, especially as this story is presented in the style similar to the Book of Job; i.e. in the style of a play?

2. What proof have we for the nature of this serpent, in the way it is presented in the story in Genesis?

Here are just a few of my thoughts on the subject which might help you formulate your answers.

(Revelation 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, This identifies the serpent with the Devil and Satan (both of which are not proven beyond doubt to be spirit beings). What is it that links the serpent, the Devil and Satan as one of the same?

If we take the serpent as literal, was it a created creature? It has to have an origin. We are not told it was comparable with the nature of an Angel of God. It is compared to the beast of the field (in its thinking - i.e. it was more cunning). Beasts of the field were created male and female. Why is there no female serpent, especially as the serpent was to have seed? (Gen 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (the serpent's) and her seed;

'Satan' and the 'Devil' are titles. Peter was called Satan by Jesus. Jesus was accusing Judas of being a devil; (John 6:70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?. If then both Satan and Devil can a apply to a person, then should not the serpent also be a title and attributed a person?

(John 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Here Jesus is accusing persons of being descendants of the devil. The devil was a liar, the same as the serpent in the garden was a liar.

(Mark 7:21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. It is the heart of man which Jeremiah says (17:9); The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:

The "heart of man" has nothing to do with the physical heart, but is part of the brain. It is the mind to do with character and motivations.

So then, whilst I have come to my own conclusions as to what the Serpent, Devil, and Satan relate to, I would like to hear your reasoning as to what these things are or represent.

David

Silence

07-20-2013, 11:26 PM

Hello David,
The "King of Baylon" in Isaiah 14, the "King of Tyre" in Ezekiel 28, and the nachash in Genesis 3 have several themes linking them together. The two main ones are the concepts of sight and sound. The word nachash has "hissing" as one of it's meanings, another meaning is "shining" (from it's association with copper/bronze). The "noise of viols" is a reference to the use of sound, followed in the next verse by the mention of "lucifer" or "light bringer" which is linked to the realm of sight, are brought up in reference to the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14. The king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 has his "timbrels and pipes". The timbrels are tambourines or brass cymbals (which make a hissing sound) the pipes are mounting sockets for shiny gemstones, which is a reference to something that is a "sight". All 3 have a description of their end recorded, along with references to mankind in the same verses. There is a lot more, but I don't have time to write it out now.

wezi viyuyi

01-26-2014, 05:08 AM

HI, DAVID....

THIS TOPIC ON THE SERPENT IS VERY INTERESTING INDEED.

I BELIEVE THIS SERPENT IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERAL BUT FIGURATIVELY.

DAVID, THE SERPENT HAS ITS ORIGINALITY IN EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD.

WE LEARN FROM THE BOOK OF GENESIS THAT THE LORD GOD PLANTED A GARDEN EASTWARDS IN EDEN THE GARDEN OF GOD.

THE TREES THAT WERE PLANTED IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WERE NOT LITERAL TREES BUT WERE ANGELS THAT WHOSE FRUITS WERE GOOD FOR FOOD. THE SERPENT AS AN ANGEL, WAS FIGURATIVELY ONE OF THESE TREES .

THE FIGURATIVE TREES THAT WERE ANGELS PLANTED IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN ARE AS FOLLOWS;

1. THE SEVEN ANGELS THAT STAND BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD;and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev 4:5 THESE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD ARE ALSO REFERRED TO AS THE FLAMING SWORD;and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23-24

2. THE FOUR SERAPHIMS AROUND THE THRONE OF GOD; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. Rev 4:6-7

3. THE TREE OF LIFE REPRESENTS ARCH ANGEL OR CHERUBS-MICHAEL, GABRIEL, WORD OF GOD AND CHRIST. THE TREE OF LIFE IS A FOUR FACED CHERUBIM DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL AS FOLLOWS;14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. Ezek 10:14

WHEN ADAM WAS SENT OUT OF THE GARDEN, THESE ARE THE CHERUBIMS THAT WERE PLACED AT THE EAST OF THE GARDEN OF EDEN; 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23-24

THE TREES THAT WERE PLANTED EASTWARDS IN EDEN CAN ALSO BE COMPARED TO THE ITEMS FOUND IN THE HOLY PLACE IN THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES;2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. Heb 9:2 THE GOLDEN ALTAR OF INCENSE WAS ALSO LOCATED IN THE MIDST OF THE HOLY PLACE;1 And thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon: of shittim wood shalt thou make it. 2 A cubit shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof; foursquare shall it be: and two cubits shall be the height thereof: the horns thereof shall be of the same. 3 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, the top thereof, and the sides thereof round about, and the horns thereof; and thou shalt make unto it a crown of gold round about. Ex 30:1-3

1. CANDLESTICK IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS THAT STAND BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD

2. THE TABLE WITH ITS FOUR LEGS IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE FOUR SERAPHIMS THAT WERE AROUND THE THRONE OF GOD AND THE SHEW BREAD(12) IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE TWELVE ANGELS(WISDOM) AT THE GATES OF THE HOLY CITY JERUSALEM;12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:12

3. THE GOLDEN ALTAR OF INCENSE IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE TREE OF LIFE THAT WAS IN THE MIDST OF THE GARDEN.

THE FOUR HORNS OF THE GOLDEN ALTAR OF INCENSE ARE ILLUSTRATIVE OF CHERUBS-MICHAEL, GABRIEL, WORD OF GOD AND CHRIST.

4. THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL

THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL WAS ALSO A FOUR FACED CHERUBIM;10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Ezek 1:10 THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL WAS MADE UP OF THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN;2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, Rev 20:2

THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL CAN BE COMPARED TO THE BRAZEN ALTAR IN THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES WHICH WAS LOCATED IN THE MIDST OF THE OUTER COURT.

THE BRAZEN ALTAR IN THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES ALSO HAD FOUR HORNS WHICH ARE FIGURATIVE OF THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN ; And he made the altar of burnt offering of shittim wood: five cubits was the length thereof, and five cubits the breadth thereof; it was foursquare; and three cubits the height thereof. 2 And he made the horns thereof on the four corners of it; the horns thereof were of the same: and he overlaid it with brass. Ex 38:1-2

THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN ARE DEMONSTRATED THROUGH THE WHITE HORSE RIDER, RED HORSE RIDER, BLACK HORSE RIDER AND GRISLY HORSE RIDER AND ARE ALL DESCRIBED FOR US IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION; 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev 6:2-8

IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IS COMPARED TO THE KING OF TYRUS, THE ANNOITED CHERUB THAT WAS SET UPON THE HOLY MOUNTAIN OF GOD; 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:13-15

THE SAME BOOK OF EZEKIEL ALSO DESCRIBES THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL AS THE ASSYRIAN THAT WAS A CEDAR IN LEBANON;3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. 4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. 5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. 6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. 7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; 11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness. Ezek 31:1-10

IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IS REFERRED TO AS LUCIFER, THAT WAS CUT DOWN TO THE GROUND;12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15

WE ALSO READ IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION THAT MICHAEL AND HIS ANGELS FOUGHT AGAINST THE DRAGON AND THE GREAT DRAGON WAS CAST OUT, THAT OLD SERPENT,CALLED THE DEVIL AND SATAN;7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:7-9

THANKS

duxrow

01-26-2014, 08:39 AM

HI, DAVID....
THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN ARE DEMONSTRATED THROUGH THE WHITE HORSE RIDER, RED HORSE RIDER, BLACK HORSE RIDER AND GRISLY HORSE RIDER AND ARE ALL DESCRIBED FOR US IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION;
IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IS COMPARED TO THE KING OF TYRUS, THE ANNOITED CHERUB THAT WAS SET UPON THE HOLY MOUNTAIN OF GOD; 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:13-15
.. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:7-9 'scuze the interject, Wezi, but your post stirred me -- :thumb:
If man had not been created, there would be no Satan, so from that perspective it's God's fault! However, Satan isn't an individual wearing a red suit and carrying a pitchfork. He doesn't leave footprints, and he's just as active today in Pakistan or New York as he is in Mayberry or Hollywood. The Bible describes Satan as Lucifer and 'Son of the Morning' in Isaiah 14, as well as King of Tyrus and Anointed Cherub in Ezekiel 28. From the serpent in the garden, to the accuser of Revelation, he has many different descriptions: devil, adversary, dragon, etc. and the Amalekites are a specific people who personify the prideful Satan. It was said of him: "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee". Ezek 28:15. Imagine that! Just like our babies!
Semantics and reciprocals and our confounded language also comes into play here. One side says that since God created everything including evil, that He must be evil too. The other side takes the position that there is no such thing as darkness (that it's only the absence of light), and that there's no such thing as cold (only the absence of heat), and therefore God can be Light and Heat and Good, but not the opposite. The word "umbrella" is not found in the Bible, but figuratively there's an umbrella of Truth and also an umbrella of Untruth--which is 'No umbrella at all'. :winking0071:

The metaphors play a big part IMO -- http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/metaphor.htm Have a great day! /s/ dux

David M

01-26-2014, 03:10 PM

Hello Wezi

HI, DAVID....

THIS TOPIC ON THE SERPENT IS VERY INTERESTING INDEED.

I BELIEVE THIS SERPENT IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERAL BUT FIGURATIVELY.Thank you for contributing to this thread. I agree that
the devil is most often portrayed figuratively in the Bible. The devil (whatever the definition or meaning we come to) is a physical reality, as opposed to some theoretical thing that does not exist. A figurative way of revealing the the devil is to use personification.
I have written my explanation of what I take the devil/serpent/satan is. I recently listened to Steve Gregg on this subject and he explains from the Bible how he has come to learn what the devil is or is not. Here is the link to that talk; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRzaTGV1yhw
I also recommend watching the following 6-part series which will explain what The Satan is in the Book of Job. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P51gUjKwZ1 There is also a book entitled Real Devil which I recommend reading. www.realdevil.info/‎

DAVID, THE SERPENT HAS ITS ORIGINALITY IN EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD.The manifestation of the serpent was first in the Garden, though I could argue that the serpent/devil/satan was part of the creation of man and woman.

WE LEARN FROM THE BOOK OF GENESIS THAT THE LORD GOD PLANTED A GARDEN EASTWARDS IN EDEN THE GARDEN OF GOD.

THE TREES THAT WERE PLANTED IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN WERE NOT LITERAL TREES BUT WERE ANGELS THAT WHOSE FRUITS WERE GOOD FOR FOOD. THE SERPENT AS AN ANGEL, WAS FIGURATIVELY ONE OF THESE TREES .

THE FIGURATIVE TREES THAT WERE ANGELS PLANTED IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN ARE AS FOLLOWS;This is where I begin to disagree. It is an idea I have not come across before. How do you argue this point from the Bible. As far as I know, Adam and Eve could eat of all the fruit from the trees in the Garden; that makes them literal trees in my view.

1. THE SEVEN ANGELS THAT STAND BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD;and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev 4:5 THESE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD ARE ALSO REFERRED TO AS THE FLAMING SWORD;and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23-24

2. THE FOUR SERAPHIMS AROUND THE THRONE OF GOD; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. Rev 4:6-7

3. THE TREE OF LIFE REPRESENTS ARCH ANGEL OR CHERUBS-MICHAEL, GABRIEL, WORD OF GOD AND CHRIST. THE TREE OF LIFE IS A FOUR FACED CHERUBIM DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL AS FOLLOWS;14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. Ezek 10:14

WHEN ADAM WAS SENT OUT OF THE GARDEN, THESE ARE THE CHERUBIMS THAT WERE PLACED AT THE EAST OF THE GARDEN OF EDEN; 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23-24

THE TREES THAT WERE PLANTED EASTWARDS IN EDEN CAN ALSO BE COMPARED TO THE ITEMS FOUND IN THE HOLY PLACE IN THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES;2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. Heb 9:2 THE GOLDEN ALTAR OF INCENSE WAS ALSO LOCATED IN THE MIDST OF THE HOLY PLACE;1 And thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon: of shittim wood shalt thou make it. 2 A cubit shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof; foursquare shall it be: and two cubits shall be the height thereof: the horns thereof shall be of the same. 3 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, the top thereof, and the sides thereof round about, and the horns thereof; and thou shalt make unto it a crown of gold round about. Ex 30:1-3

1. CANDLESTICK IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS THAT STAND BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD

2. THE TABLE WITH ITS FOUR LEGS IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE FOUR SERAPHIMS THAT WERE AROUND THE THRONE OF GOD AND THE SHEW BREAD(12) IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE TWELVE ANGELS(WISDOM) AT THE GATES OF THE HOLY CITY JERUSALEM;12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:12

3. THE GOLDEN ALTAR OF INCENSE IS ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE TREE OF LIFE THAT WAS IN THE MIDST OF THE GARDEN.

THE FOUR HORNS OF THE GOLDEN ALTAR OF INCENSE ARE ILLUSTRATIVE OF CHERUBS-MICHAEL, GABRIEL, WORD OF GOD AND CHRIST.

4. THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL

THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL WAS ALSO A FOUR FACED CHERUBIM;10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Ezek 1:10 THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL WAS MADE UP OF THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN;2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, Rev 20:2

THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL CAN BE COMPARED TO THE BRAZEN ALTAR IN THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES WHICH WAS LOCATED IN THE MIDST OF THE OUTER COURT.

THE BRAZEN ALTAR IN THE TABERNACLE OF MOSES ALSO HAD FOUR HORNS WHICH ARE FIGURATIVE OF THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN ; And he made the altar of burnt offering of shittim wood: five cubits was the length thereof, and five cubits the breadth thereof; it was foursquare; and three cubits the height thereof. 2 And he made the horns thereof on the four corners of it; the horns thereof were of the same: and he overlaid it with brass. Ex 38:1-2 The tabernacle has many lessons to teach us. I will think a little more on the associations you make with various trees.

THE SERPENT, DRAGON, DEVIL AND SATAN ARE DEMONSTRATED THROUGH THE WHITE HORSE RIDER, RED HORSE RIDER, BLACK HORSE RIDER AND GRISLY HORSE RIDER AND ARE ALL DESCRIBED FOR US IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION; 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. 7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev 6:2-8

IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IS COMPARED TO THE KING OF TYRUS, THE ANNOITED CHERUB THAT WAS SET UPON THE HOLY MOUNTAIN OF GOD; 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezek 28:13-15 Certainly as Tyrus was not a fallen Angel of God.

THE SAME BOOK OF EZEKIEL ALSO DESCRIBES THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL AS THE ASSYRIAN THAT WAS A CEDAR IN LEBANON;3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. 4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. 5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. 6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. 7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; 11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness. Ezek 31:1-10 Certainly, the nations can be considered figuratively as trees.

IN THE BOOK OF ISAIAH, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IS REFERRED TO AS LUCIFER, THAT WAS CUT DOWN TO THE GROUND;12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15 King Nebuchadnezzar as in prophecy of Daniel is likened to a tree that was cut down and the stump left in the ground. (Dan 4:15) Isaiah 14 is referring to the demise of Babylon and the King of Babylon. I do not see the King of Babylon represented by the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We are not told specifically what type of tree it was. From the description it was not a literal tree. The tree compares to the Tower of Babel, in that the tree actually reached to heaven.

WE ALSO READ IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION THAT MICHAEL AND HIS ANGELS FOUGHT AGAINST THE DRAGON AND THE GREAT DRAGON WAS CAST OUT, THAT OLD SERPENT,CALLED THE DEVIL AND SATAN;7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:7-9 I recently quoted a section from the book; The Real Devil explaining the situation where Michael contends with the Devil for the body of Moses (Jude 9), so I will leave it at that for the moment for Michael's contending with the Dragon in Revelation has to be seen in the same way. These are not verses supporting the idea that God's Angels can sin. God's Angels do not sin. You can read the threads I started dealing with this subject. One title is; Can God's Angels in Heaven be trusted?

THANKSYou are welcome. Thank you for your contribution. I look forward to your Biblical evidence for some of the things you say. It is good to look for similarities. The more we see the Bible is consistent and coherent the better. I know we can sometimes force links that might not be intended.

All the best
David

David M

01-26-2014, 03:26 PM

Hello Silence
Thank you for your contribution. I will comment on the following point, since the explanation I shall refer you to, undermines your evidence to support the claim you make. If you can spare the time, you might like to listen to Steve Gregg who began to study the Bible for himself and not accept the teaching that was coming from the Evangelical churches. He goes through the Bible and gets his answers from the Bible. I suggest you do the same along the same lines as Steve Gregg. Here is the link; Spiritual Warfare - the origin of Satan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRzaTGV1yhw

The king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 has his "timbrels and pipes". The timbrels are tambourines or brass cymbals (which make a hissing sound) the pipes are mounting sockets for shiny gemstones, which is a reference to something that is a "sight". All 3 have a description of their end recorded, along with references to mankind in the same verses. There is a lot more, but I don't have time to write it out now.

Steve Gregg gives a similar explanation relating to the sockets and mountings for the gem stones. The translators whilst they might have done their best, have misled us by their use of the words "timbrels" and "pipes" I recently made this comment in another thread;
As explained by Steve Gregg, this has lead many to think Satan had musical instruments attached to him and that Satan was the director or music in Heaven. Is that crazy or what? The NIV uses the words; Your settings and mountings were made of gold; In the context of the precious stones mentioned in the preceding verses, the NIV makes more sense. I am not saying the NIV is better than the KJV.

I will wait to read more from you when you have time.

Regards
David

wezi viyuyi

01-28-2014, 05:31 AM

HI DAVID,

THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR RESPONSE.

I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN MY UNDERSTANDING A LITTLE FURTHER.

DAVID, I MAY PUZZLE YOU INTO DISAGREEMENT AGAIN BY MENTIONING TO YOU THAT ACTUALLY EVE WAS NOT THE WIFE TO ADAM IN THE GARDEN.

THE FIRST CREATION NARRATION OF ADAM THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF GENESIS CHAPTER TWO WAS OF THE INVISIBLE CREATION.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE NOTE THAT IN THIS NARRATION, THE LORD GOD FIRST CREATED THE INVISIBLE HEAVENS AND EARTH AND AFTER THAT, THE INVISIBLE ADAM WAS CREATED EVEN BEFORE ANY PLANT OR HERB OF THE FIELD GREW.

IT WAS AFTER THE LORD GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS CALLED EDEN(THE WOMAN), DID HE PROCEED TO CREATE ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE INVISIBLE EARTH.

THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL; 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:4-7

THE BOOK OF GENESIS CHAPTER FIVE TELLS US THAT, MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM AND CALLED THEIR NAME ADAM IN THE DAY THEY WERE CREATED; 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2

IT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE NOTE THAT IN THIS VERSE, THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE WOMAN ''EVE'' BECAUSE 'EVE' WAS MADE FROM THE RIB OF ADAM AFTER THE FALL IN THE GARDEN.

ADAM WAS CREATED IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD

IN THIS INVISIBLE CREATION ADAM WAS CREATED IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD AND IT IS WRITTEN THAT GOD IS A SPIRIT; 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:22-24 AND; 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Tim 1:17

ADAM WAS IN AN ANGELIC FORM AND CREATED IN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD; 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2

AND IT WAS AFTER THE FALL THAT ADAM WAS MADE ''AFTER THE LIKENESS'' OF GOD AND IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, THAT IS, IN THE VISIBLE LIKENESS OF GOD; 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:26

IT WAS AFTER THE FALL THAT ADAM WAS MADE IN THE

(1) IMAGE OF GOD

(2) AFTER THE LIKENESS OF GOD

(3) IN THE SIMILITUDE OF GOD

(4) IN THE RESEMBLANCE OF GOD

ALL THESE MEAN ONE AND THE SAME THING THAT ADAM WAS MADE A VISIBLE LIKENESS OF GOD.

ACCORDING TO MERRIAMS DICTIONARY, THE WORD SIMILITUDE IS DESCRIBED AS A VISIBLE LIKENESS WHICH IS ALSO DESCRIBED AS AN IMAGE; si·mil·i·tude \sə-'mi-lə-"tüd, -"tyüd\ n [ME, fr. AF, allegory, analogy, fr. L similitudo resemblance, fr. similis] (14c) 1 a : counterpart double b : a visible likeness : image

IT WAS ONLY AFTER THE TRANSGRESSION THAT ADAM WAS CREATED A VISIBLE LIKENESS OF GOD AND HE WAS SENT FORTH FROM THE GARDEN OF EDEN TO TILL THE GROUND FROM WHENCE HE WAS TAKEN; 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23-24

BEFORE THE FALL IN THE GARDEN, THERE WAS NO MAN TO TILL THE GROUND AS WE HAVE LEARNT FROM GENESIS CHAPTER TWO; 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. Gen 2:5-6

THE TILLING THE GROUND IS TO BREAK THE FALLOW GROUND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF HOSEA;12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12 AND IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL, IT S WRITTEN;8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: Ezek 36:8-10

THE CREATION NARRATION OF MALE AND FEMALE, HE CREATED THEM AND CALLED THEIR NAME ADAM, IS IN HARMONY WITH WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TAUGHT THE DISCIPLES THAT FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION GOD MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE ; 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mark 10:6-9 JESUS GAVE THIS EXAMPLE TO HIS DISCIPLES TO SHOW THAT THE MALE AND FEMALE THAT GOD CREATED IN THE BEGINING WERE JOINED TOGETHER AND IT WAS LUCIFER THAT PUT THEM ASUNDER AS WE SHALL SHORTLY LEARN.

IT WAS AFTER THE FALL IN THE GARDEN THAT ADAM WAS SENT INTO A DEEP SLEEP(DEATH) AND WAS FORMED WITH VISIBLE FLESH AND BONES;

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1 Tim 2:13-14

THE LORD GOD TOOK ONE OF HIS RIBS AND MADE A WOMAN, A WIFE FOR ADAM WHOM ADAM NAMED EVE; 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:21-25 AND; 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Gen 3:20-21

EVE WAS NOT CREATED DIRECT FROM THE DUST OF THE GROUND AS DESCRIBED IN THE CREATION OF THE FIRST ADAM THAT THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND.... MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM AND CALLED THEIR NAME ADAM.

THE WOMAN THAT THE SERPENT PURSUED WITH WATER OUT OF HIS MOUTH AS A FLOOD, WAS THE WIFE TO ADAM IN THE EVERLASTING. SHE IS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION AS A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN;1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Rev 12:1

THIS WOMAN WAS A WIFE TO ADAM BOTH MALE AND FEMALE AS IT IS WRITTEN IN GENESIS CHAPTER FIVE; 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2

THIS WOMAN WAS ALSO KNOWN AS THE HEAVENS OR THE GREAT CITY OF GOD CALLED EDEN, OR EDEN THE GARDEN OF GOD OR THE TABERNACLE OF GOD;4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, Gen 2:4

THE GREAT CITY EDEN WAS THE WIFE TO ADAM JUST AS THE HOLY CITY JERUSALEM IS DESCRIBED AS THE WIFE TO THE LAMB OF GOD;9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:9-12

IT WAS THE WOMAN EDEN, THAT TRANSGRESSED. AFTER TRANSGRESSION, ADAM DID NOT REFERR TO HER AS THE FEMALE THAT WAS CREATED TOGETHER WITH HIM OR THE FLESH OF HIS FLESH BUT ADAM REFERRED TO HER AS THE WOMAN THAT GOD GAVE TO BE WITH HIM. EVEN THE LORD GOD HIMSELF ADDRESSED HER AS THE WOMAN;9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:9-13

EVE WAS ONLY CREATED AFTER THE TRANSGRESSION WHEN ADAM DIED AND RESURRECTED WITH FLESH AND BONES;21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:21-25 PLEASE TAKE NOTE HERE THAT BOTH ADAM AND EVE WERE NAKED BUT NOT ASHAMED. BUT PREVIOUSLY ADAM AND THE WOMAN WERE NAKED AND ASHAMED AS THEY SEWED FIG LEAVES TOGETHER AND HID BEHIND THE TREES OF THE GARDEN;7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. Gen 3:7-8

THE DEVIL WAS WROUGHT WITH THE WOMAN AND SHE LATER BECAME MYSTERY BABYLON;4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH Rev 17:4-5 VERSE EIGHTEEN DESCRIBES HER AS THE GREAT CITY THAT REIGNS OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH;18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.Rev 17:18

DAVID,

WE NEED ALSO TO UNDERSTAND THAT APART FROM ADAM, THE PEOPLE OF THE INVISIBLE EARTH NAMELY PEOPLE, KINDREDS, NATIONS AND TONGUES WERE ALSO IN THE EVERLASTING. THEY WERE ALSO CREATED BY THE LORD GOD AND FIGURATIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE LIVING CREATURE;18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:18-20

AFTER HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION, JESUS SENT THE APOSTLES TO GO AND PREACH TO THE CREATURE;15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:14-18

WHILE ADAM WAS GIVEN THE RIGHT TO PARTAKE THE BREAD OF THE TREE OF LIFE, THE CREATURE WAS GIVEN THE RIGHT TO PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL-WHICH WAS MANNA. IT IS MENTIONED IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL THAT THE CREATURE WAS TRAFFICKING ON THIS TREE AND IT BECAME PROUD;5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. 6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. 7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezek 31:5-9

THEREFORE, THE WOMAN TRANSGRESSED BY PARTAKING OF MANNA.

Composer

02-22-2014, 11:27 PM

David M

02-24-2014, 11:51 AM

Simply but unambiguously true -

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV story book

2. ALL Supernatural spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV story book (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin!

Result: No Satan Supernatural spirit being, No devil Supernatural spirit being / No fallen Supernatural heavenly angels / No literal Supernatural spirit demons etc. etc.

The bible Story book ' fallen angels ' refers to humans that became corrupt and ' fell ' from their positions of religious/spiritual authority.

The wicked Popes of old are but one example of ' a fallen angel(s) '.

QED
Hello Composer

Welcome to the forum. I am pleased you contributed and that your conclusion agrees with what I have been saying on this forum for a long time, but is generally not accepted by our host and others.

You can search for other threads I have started to explain things like the Devil and Satan and in this thread I have concentrated on the Serpent. As you know, Rev 12:7 links all three to be the same.

The Bible is telling us of God's relationship with man whom he has created. It is man that failed to follow God's instruction and has done ever since. It is man that sins first and God is the righteous Judge. I shall be please to read your views on this.

God made man and has given man rules to live by since, the Golden Rule if innate is not always practiced. God judges man by the rules he has given man, however, man wants to judge God by the same rules and that is a non-starter for God is not man and God can only act righteously. It is the struggle of man to understand that. The offer of eternal life by God to man, more than makes up for any hardship the faithful suffer in this life.

There are those who will say it is immoral of God to let his servants die cruel deaths at the hands of cruel men who in God sight are reprobates. God's servants who died because their faith was not acceptable by those cruel people who killed God's servants, God will raise to life. The faith of those martyred is counted to them as righteousness and God's gift of eternal life at the resurrection is their reward. The end result shows that God is moral and rewards the faithful. Those who are killed by God and would never be raised to eternal life, are getting their just rewards for being reprobates.

So now you agree with me that God's Angels cannot sin, means that those passages that the opposition use to say they do, you will have an explanation that shows the angels to be human. I expect your analysis of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 will be along the same lines as I have worked out. I started a thread following a challenge to Richard to give an exposition of Jude 5 and 6. Here is the link (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3066-The-quot-angels-quot-in-Jude-6). Maybe you can contribute something to that thread.

All the best
David

David M

02-24-2014, 01:37 PM

Hello Wezi

HI DAVID,

THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR RESPONSE.You are welcome. I have read through your reply and there are some statements I do not agree with. I will try to be brief and comment on the things that struck me the most and which I disagree with. I shall give you my reasons why.

I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN MY UNDERSTANDING A LITTLE FURTHER.

DAVID, I MAY PUZZLE YOU INTO DISAGREEMENT AGAIN BY MENTIONING TO YOU THAT ACTUALLY EVE WAS NOT THE WIFE TO ADAM IN THE GARDEN. She was made a helpmeat. Eve became Adam's wife the moment they had sexual relations. They became one flesh. It was inevitable Eve was Adam's wife, or else we would have no generation to follow.

THE FIRST CREATION NARRATION OF ADAM THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF GENESIS CHAPTER TWO WAS OF THE INVISIBLE CREATION.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE NOTE THAT IN THIS NARRATION, THE LORD GOD FIRST CREATED THE INVISIBLE HEAVENS AND EARTH AND AFTER THAT, THE INVISIBLE ADAM WAS CREATED EVEN BEFORE ANY PLANT OR HERB OF THE FIELD GREW. I do not understand what was invisible. The whole of creation was visible. God said; "let there be light". Light is what makes things visible to the eye. However, God sees things the human eye cannot see.

IT WAS AFTER THE LORD GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS CALLED EDEN(THE WOMAN), DID HE PROCEED TO CREATE ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE INVISIBLE EARTH.This does not make sense to me.

THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL; 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:4-7 One thing I saw anew about the story of creation is that for the first three days, God makes the heavens, the sea and the dry land. The following three days, God fills the heavens, the sea and the dry land.

THE BOOK OF GENESIS CHAPTER FIVE TELLS US THAT, MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM AND CALLED THEIR NAME ADAM IN THE DAY THEY WERE CREATED; 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2

IT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE NOTE THAT IN THIS VERSE, THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE WOMAN ''EVE'' BECAUSE 'EVE' WAS MADE FROM THE RIB OF ADAM AFTER THE FALL IN THE GARDEN. Eve was the first to fall so what you are saying makes no sense to me. Eve was created and part of Adam was used. Both are still made from the dust, hence like them, everyone is made of dust and returns to dust at death.

ADAM WAS CREATED IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD

IN THIS INVISIBLE CREATION ADAM WAS CREATED IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD AND IT IS WRITTEN THAT GOD IS A SPIRIT; 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:22-24 AND; 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1 Tim 1:17 Again, I do not see the creation of Adam being made invisible. God is invisible to man now, for God will not let sinful man look upon him. God is spirit and that spirit science is not going to find or be able to explain.

ADAM WAS IN AN ANGELIC FORM AND CREATED IN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD; 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2 Adam was made of flesh and blood. God cannot be flesh and blood and that is why God is not Jesus. Man has the struggle to keep his mind centred on following instruction and being righteous in God's sight. It is the carnal mind of man that is enmity with God. Man is in the image of God, but the moment man sins, he becomes unrighteous and is not a perfect image of God.

AND IT WAS AFTER THE FALL THAT ADAM WAS MADE ''AFTER THE LIKENESS'' OF GOD AND IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, THAT IS, IN THE VISIBLE LIKENESS OF GOD; 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:26

IT WAS AFTER THE FALL THAT ADAM WAS MADE IN THE The fall came after Adam and Eve were created. I do not know where you get your ideas from. They cannot be got from the text we have been given.

(1) IMAGE OF GOD

(2) AFTER THE LIKENESS OF GOD

(3) IN THE SIMILITUDE OF GOD

(4) IN THE RESEMBLANCE OF GOD

ALL THESE MEAN ONE AND THE SAME THING THAT ADAM WAS MADE A VISIBLE LIKENESS OF GOD.

ACCORDING TO MERRIAMS DICTIONARY, THE WORD SIMILITUDE IS DESCRIBED AS A VISIBLE LIKENESS WHICH IS ALSO DESCRIBED AS AN IMAGE; si·mil·i·tude \sə-'mi-lə-"tüd, -"tyüd\ n [ME, fr. AF, allegory, analogy, fr. L similitudo resemblance, fr. similis] (14c) 1 a : counterpart double b : a visible likeness : image Whatever image we personally have of God, we are superimposing an image of ourselves upon God. Men have beards, does that mean God has a beard? What purpose would that serve?

IT WAS ONLY AFTER THE TRANSGRESSION THAT ADAM WAS CREATED A VISIBLE LIKENESS OF GOD AND HE WAS SENT FORTH FROM THE GARDEN OF EDEN TO TILL THE GROUND FROM WHENCE HE WAS TAKEN; 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 3:23-24 I do not see why Adam would have been created invisible and would by nature be completely different to the animals. The teaching of the Bible is that animals and plants and man are all made from the dust. All return to dust. Jesus has been given immortality. That is the same as his body being incorruptible. When Jesus walked into a locked room was Jesus ever invisible?

BEFORE THE FALL IN THE GARDEN, THERE WAS NO MAN TO TILL THE GROUND AS WE HAVE LEARNT FROM GENESIS CHAPTER TWO; 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. Gen 2:5-6

THE TILLING THE GROUND IS TO BREAK THE FALLOW GROUND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF HOSEA;12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12 AND IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL, IT S WRITTEN;8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. 9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: Ezek 36:8-10 Jesus gave us the parable of the sower. The parable had a spiritual lesson. The elements in the parable had their spiritual counterpart.

THE CREATION NARRATION OF MALE AND FEMALE, HE CREATED THEM AND CALLED THEIR NAME ADAM, IS IN HARMONY WITH WHAT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST TAUGHT THE DISCIPLES THAT FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION GOD MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE ; 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mark 10:6-9 JESUS GAVE THIS EXAMPLE TO HIS DISCIPLES TO SHOW THAT THE MALE AND FEMALE THAT GOD CREATED IN THE BEGINING WERE JOINED TOGETHER AND IT WAS LUCIFER THAT PUT THEM ASUNDER AS WE SHALL SHORTLY LEARN. Now you prove to me your ideas are not valid. You do not understand what Lucifer is. Lucifer is only named once in the Bible and Lucifer is referring to the King of Babylon. Anything else you say about Lucifer in connection with Adam and Eve or anyone else, is going to be wrong.

IT WAS AFTER THE FALL IN THE GARDEN THAT ADAM WAS SENT INTO A DEEP SLEEP(DEATH) AND WAS FORMED WITH VISIBLE FLESH AND BONES;

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1 Tim 2:13-14

THE LORD GOD TOOK ONE OF HIS RIBS AND MADE A WOMAN, A WIFE FOR ADAM WHOM ADAM NAMED EVE; 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:21-25 AND; 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them. Gen 3:20-21 The fall did not come until after Eve was created using part of Adam. Adam was already flesh and bone when Eve was created. There was nothing invisible about flesh and bone.

EVE WAS NOT CREATED DIRECT FROM THE DUST OF THE GROUND AS DESCRIBED IN THE CREATION OF THE FIRST ADAM THAT THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND.... MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM AND CALLED THEIR NAME ADAM. Eve was made around the one rib taken from Adam. Where did the rest of Eve come from. Eve went back to dust when she died, so it is only right to think that the whole of Eve was made from dust, the same as Adam's rib was made of dust.

THE WOMAN THAT THE SERPENT PURSUED WITH WATER OUT OF HIS MOUTH AS A FLOOD, WAS THE WIFE TO ADAM IN THE EVERLASTING. SHE IS DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION AS A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN;1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Rev 12:1 You are making some sort of parallel that to me does not exist.

THIS WOMAN WAS A WIFE TO ADAM BOTH MALE AND FEMALE AS IT IS WRITTEN IN GENESIS CHAPTER FIVE; 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1-2 So when God called Adam, Eve would not have responded. It was Adam who named his wife Eve. The fact that he named Adam and Eve (one flesh) with the same name, is emphasizing the fact that they were to be one flesh and united as one. (Gen 3:20) And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

THIS WOMAN WAS ALSO KNOWN AS THE HEAVENS OR THE GREAT CITY OF GOD CALLED EDEN, OR EDEN THE GARDEN OF GOD OR THE TABERNACLE OF GOD;4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, Gen 2:4

THE GREAT CITY EDEN WAS THE WIFE TO ADAM JUST AS THE HOLY CITY JERUSALEM IS DESCRIBED AS THE WIFE TO THE LAMB OF GOD;9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Rev 21:9-12 As before, I do not agree with this and I think you are stretching things a little. However, the fact is God created woman which was necessary for procreation and in the normal course of events marriage by the union of the flesh was to remain monogamous we might think. Would Eve have had incest with her sons, or Adam incest with his daughters? I do not think so. I am sure there are those who want to think the worst.

IT WAS THE WOMAN EDEN, THAT TRANSGRESSED. AFTER TRANSGRESSION, ADAM DID NOT REFERR TO HER AS THE FEMALE THAT WAS CREATED TOGETHER WITH HIM OR THE FLESH OF HIS FLESH BUT ADAM REFERRED TO HER AS THE WOMAN THAT GOD GAVE TO BE WITH HIM. EVEN THE LORD GOD HIMSELF ADDRESSED HER AS THE WOMAN;9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:9-13 The time could have been short and although Adam's helpmeat was female, both Adam and Eve might not have immediately associated their physical differences as anything to think about. It was after the fall that God said to the woman that she would suffer pain in childbirth. It was after their expulsion from the Garden that sexual attraction kicked in.

EVE WAS ONLY CREATED AFTER THE TRANSGRESSION WHEN ADAM DIED AND RESURRECTED WITH FLESH AND BONES;21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen 2:21-25 PLEASE TAKE NOTE HERE THAT BOTH ADAM AND EVE WERE NAKED BUT NOT ASHAMED. BUT PREVIOUSLY ADAM AND THE WOMAN WERE NAKED AND ASHAMED AS THEY SEWED FIG LEAVES TOGETHER AND HID BEHIND THE TREES OF THE GARDEN;7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. Gen 3:7-8 Again, Adam did not fall before Eve was created. I do not know where you get these ideas from.

THE DEVIL WAS WROUGHT WITH THE WOMAN AND SHE LATER BECAME MYSTERY BABYLON;4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH Rev 17:4-5 VERSE EIGHTEEN DESCRIBES HER AS THE GREAT CITY THAT REIGNS OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH;18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.Rev 17:18 Parallels between the woman who is a faithful wife and the wife that plays the harlot, or the unmarried woman that wants to play the harlot can become a symbol of those who in faith prostitute themselves. As far as I am concerned, the parallels have nothing to do with Eve. Eve was simply the first woman. We are not told anything about Eve after her transgression and after Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.

DAVID,

WE NEED ALSO TO UNDERSTAND THAT APART FROM ADAM, THE PEOPLE OF THE INVISIBLE EARTH NAMELY PEOPLE, KINDREDS, NATIONS AND TONGUES WERE ALSO IN THE EVERLASTING. THEY WERE ALSO CREATED BY THE LORD GOD AND FIGURATIVELY REFERRED TO AS THE LIVING CREATURE;18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. Gen 2:18-20 The nearest I would get to an invisible earth is by association with spiritual Israel. We can see literal Israel, but we cannot see spiritual Israel. That is a subject on its own.

AFTER HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION, JESUS SENT THE APOSTLES TO GO AND PREACH TO THE CREATURE;15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:14-18 "Creature" is only used once and is in that verse in Mark's gospel. Paul uses the term in his letters. Though human, humans are essentially made of dust just as the animals are made of dust. All are creatures that return to dust. The only difference between humans and the animals is in the ability of the mind to reason. We can in fact reason and change the way we think. The person who changes their thinking to conform to the thinking of Jesus is likened to becoming a new creature (2 Cor 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:

WHILE ADAM WAS GIVEN THE RIGHT TO PARTAKE THE BREAD OF THE TREE OF LIFE, THE CREATURE WAS GIVEN THE RIGHT TO PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL-WHICH WAS MANNA. IT IS MENTIONED IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL THAT THE CREATURE WAS TRAFFICKING ON THIS TREE AND IT BECAME PROUD;5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. 6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. 7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezek 31:5-9
You start of with a premise I do not agree with. Adam could have eaten of the tree of life, but the indication is that he did not, otherwise he would have lived for ever. Adam ate of the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil after God told him not to. It only took one single bite and Adam did not eat any more of that one tree.

THEREFORE, THE WOMAN TRANSGRESSED BY PARTAKING OF MANNA.I do not think a parallel can be drawn between the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and the manna which God supplied in the Wilderness for the people wandering is a dessert where there was a shortage of food. Jesus likens himself to the bread the came from Heaven just as the manna came from Heaven, but the bread which was Jesus was the bread of life which Jesus said, (John 6:)
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Thanks for your thoughts; they are not thoughts I see based in scripture though you have quoted some of scripture in which certain parallels have been made such as Lucifer being in the Garden. That is not to be taken literally.

Regards
David

Richard Amiel McGough

02-24-2014, 11:44 PM

David M

02-25-2014, 04:18 AM

No need to shoot the messenger

You mean; "No need to shoot the angel".

The angel in this case does not appear to accept the truth, but prefers to continue to deliberately promulgate confusion amongst the confused.

Hence; as Paul writes (Galations 1:9); As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So what was the true gospel Paul was preaching? Why not say what the true gospel is, even if you do not believe it?