Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

[Greatest I am]

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

People who believe in the barbaric human blood sacrifice of the Triune Jesus/God must believe that the greatest force ever to exist decided that humans, lowly creations whom we are told are infinitely inferior to God, are somehow more important than God’s own life and that he would give it up for believers.

That is like a slave master dying in place of his slave. A rather silly notion to me.

Jesus preached that we should develop a humble character with little self-pride.

How is placing your own life above Triune Jesus/God’s showing a humble character as you think that he would die for you? That is taking self-pride to the maximum.

I think that those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Yet Christians who think they are moral will believe that God would do such a despicable thing as having his son killed even as scriptures say that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and does not believe in asking or accepting a ransom.

Is thinking that to believe that God would die for you the epitome of an inflated ego?

If not, what could possibly inflate an ego more than that?

Regards
DL

[David M]

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?


Hello DL
I am responding to your post in the thread; Test Everything in the Bible. This is one of those points that we have to agree what the Bible says. Now the conclusion I draw (which I know we might not agree on at present) is that Jesus was not God (hence the thread I started). Since Jesus was not God, it was not God that died. By his very nature and substance, God cannot die. That is one of the major arguments for saying that Jesus was not God and that Jesus started off his life (his genesis) as a man, born of a woman. The fact that Jesus has eternal life now and has been given all authority and power, even the name and title of God now, makes him appear equal to God. Yet Jesus acknowledges that he is not God and without God giving him his power, he could do nothing. Everything we have and Jesus had is given by God. For what Jesus accomplished which no other person has been able to accomplish, Jesus is above all other names, but that does not make him equal with God. In fact the Bible teaches us that those who are saved will be given the same immortal nature as Jesus has and "we shall be like him". The fact that we shall be the same as Jesus does not make us equal with God. God will not give us hi unlimited power as he has given it to Jesus. There will come a time when the earth has been restored and Jesus will no longer need to us God's power. When Christ hands back the restored kingdom to his Heavenly Father, then that is when God takes over again and God "will be all and in all" and the world will be perfect and sin will be a thing of the past.
You can disagree with much of that, but that is what we will find once we investigate the scriptures. God has declared his intention from the beginning and even in the Book of Numbers God declared; (14:21) But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. and confirmed in Habbakuk; (2:14) For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. That is not the present state of the world and never will be until the last enemy is destroyed and that is death and death as we know is the penalty for sin. There is no place for sin in the kingdom of God.

Test all that I have said and where you find something which appears to say the contrary we will look at the context carefully and see how we can bring all the words of scripture in line so as not to be in conflict.

All the best

David

[Greatest I am]

Hello DL
I am responding to your post in the thread; Test Everything in the Bible. This is one of those points that we have to agree what the Bible says. Now the conclusion I draw (which I know we might not agree on at present) is that Jesus was not God (hence the thread I started). Since Jesus was not God, it was not God that died. By his very nature and substance, God cannot die. That is one of the major arguments for saying that Jesus was not God and that Jesus started off his life (his genesis) as a man, born of a woman. The fact that Jesus has eternal life now and has been given all authority and power, even the name and title of God now, makes him appear equal to God. Yet Jesus acknowledges that he is not God and without God giving him his power, he could do nothing. Everything we have and Jesus had is given by God. For what Jesus accomplished which no other person has been able to accomplish, Jesus is above all other names, but that does not make him equal with God. In fact the Bible teaches us that those who are saved will be given the same immortal nature as Jesus has and "we shall be like him". The fact that we shall be the same as Jesus does not make us equal with God. God will not give us hi unlimited power as he has given it to Jesus. There will come a time when the earth has been restored and Jesus will no longer need to us God's power. When Christ hands back the restored kingdom to his Heavenly Father, then that is when God takes over again and God "will be all and in all" and the world will be perfect and sin will be a thing of the past.
You can disagree with much of that, but that is what we will find once we investigate the scriptures. God has declared his intention from the beginning and even in the Book of Numbers God declared; (14:21) But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. and confirmed in Habbakuk; (2:14) For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. That is not the present state of the world and never will be until the last enemy is destroyed and that is death and death as we know is the penalty for sin. There is no place for sin in the kingdom of God.

Test all that I have said and where you find something which appears to say the contrary we will look at the context carefully and see how we can bring all the words of scripture in line so as not to be in conflict.

All the best

David

Indeed. There is much in what I see as the fantasy you wrote above to disagree with.

If there was no place for sin in God's kingdom, why did he put it here or allow it in heaven in Satan?

I do agree with some of your quotes above but not the way you use them.
The following shows you what Jesus really taught.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

What do you think?

Regards
DL

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When Christ hands back the restored kingdom to his Heavenly Father, then that is when God takes over again and God "will be all and in all" and the world will be perfect and sin will be a thing of the past.

Good afternoon David!

It's been a while since we have chatted. I hope all is well.

I'd like to explore your idea that "the world will be perfect and sin will be a thing of the past." How do you understand this passage that describes sinners outside the gates of the New Jerusalem in the New Heaven and New Earth?

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Great chatting!

Richard

[David M]

Hello Richard and DL

Before I look at the video, I will give you my answer. I do not think I need comment on the video before answering the other questions.
First of all to deal with DL’s comment.

If there was no place for sin in God's kingdom, why did he put it here or allow it in heaven in Satan?
First of all, Satan is not in God’s presence in Heaven (God’s dwelling place). Satan is in the political heavens and it is in this way "heaven" can be thought of; just as the King of Tyre was considered to be in heaven. This is confirmed by what Jesus said about the city (town) of Capernaum; (Matthew 11:23 ) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: This example should tell us something about the way we are to understand this type of figurative language and that it cannot be taken literally. All this is telling us that Capernaum was as one time exalted and then brought low; not dissimilar to the judgment of Tyre, which Jesus refers to on another occasion. Just as it is the people that make up the city and the buildings of no real importance, so a city that is represented by its people, Satan represents people collectively and individually. Hence Satan can appear as institutions made up of people and because we consider institutions to be faceless, this is why Paul can be understood to refer to these institutions when he says (Eph 6:12) ... but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Satan represents anything in opposition to God and the primary opponent to God is man (individually and collectively). Evil stems from the the mind of man, the same as lust stems from the mind. Actions are the outworking of the mind. Jesus said; (Matt 7:17) every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. It is exactly the same with the mind; an evil mind produces evil actions and that is why we are exhorted to have “the mind of Christ” in which there was no evil thoughts and Jesus did no evil in the sight of God. Israel was to be perfect and it is in the context of the evil nations around them, which God drove out of the land that God said; (Deut 18:13) Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. We can see what God required of Abraham for an example (Gen 17:1) I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Anyone who is “damned” and given over to a reprobate mind will not be saved and not given a place in the kingdom of God. (Thes 2:12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The righteous have no pleasure in unrightousness and being perfect is also about being righteous. Though it has not been possible for us, it was possible and Jesus proved it was possible.

DL can question why God allowed it to be this way and so as I quote the late Jim Rohn; “when you can create your own planet, you can do things your way.” If we stop and consider the wisdom of God, we see this as a way of selecting those who prove worth saving. You can choose to be saved or not. God has given you freewill and God will choose the best and reject the remainder. This is why there is a judgement. If you want to rebel against God’s instructions and exercise your freewill to do whatever evil you want to, then that gives reason for God to reject you. God has given you the right to choose and as God said to Israel; “choose life that ye may live”.

Re Revelation 22:14 this is figurative language and is speaking of spiritual Jerusalem, just as those who become part of spiritual Israel. Only today I was reminded of Rahab (the harlot) who was a gentile and was saved by God for her belief. Rahab was told to assemble her family in her house and remain in the house while the walls of Jericho fell down around them. Had Rahab not followed God’s instruction, she would have died the same as all those who stayed in Jericho outside the house.

A message I heard a few weeks ago spoke of the safest place to be and it is; “to be in the will of God”
In Revelation 22:14 in this spiritual city of Jerusalem, we see the ideal that within the city it is safe from those without who would want those inside to go the way of those outside and be lead into sin. Rev 21:15 says; For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. This can be seen as those “in the world”, who are not of the spiritual household and are kept on the outside and not allowed to enter the city while in their present state. Of course, if anyone on the outside repents and seeks forgiveness of sins and puts on the covering of Christ, they would be allowed in. This is why only those judged acceptable will be given eternal life in the kingdom of God on earth. Those who are resurrected are not resurrected to be sinners. Therefore, as Jesus says; (Matt 22:37 ) For in the resurrection ... are as the angels of God in heaven. so this means that God's Angels do not sin.

There are plenty of verses which tell us God requires perfection and whilst we cannot attain perfection on our own, there is nothing to stop us having Jesus as our covering and presenting us as faultless before God, and as such, those are the people who Jesus will judge to be acceptable and be received into the kingdom.
“We shall be like him” is exactly “what it says on the tin” to quote a popular advert. To be like Jesus is to have the same incorruptible nature that Jesus has been given and we are told that he cannot be any more tempted (to sin). It means that to be like Jesus in the kingdom, those people cannot be tempted to sin and therefore they do not sin. Where there is no sin there is no death. It is not possible to be a sinner and be immortal.
Paul speaks of our victory through Christ who gives us the victory over sin and death; (1 Cor 15:56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That will do for now.

All the best

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Re Revelation 22:14 this is figurative language and is speaking of spiritual Jerusalem, just as those who become part of spiritual Israel. Only today I was reminded of Rahab (the harlot) who was a gentile and was saved by God for her belief. Rahab was told to assemble her family in her house and remain in the house while the walls of Jericho fell down around them. Had Rahab not followed God’s instruction, she would have died the same as all those who stayed in Jericho outside the house.

That's fascinating! I agree it is speaking of "spiritual Israel." Just like all the prophecies that you apply to the regathering of "physical Israel". Case in point: Paul applied the prophecies from Ezekiel and Zechariah to the Church (spiritual Israel):

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

There are lots of verses like that. Paul consistently said that the Church, the Body of Christ, was the fulfillment of the prophecies. He never gave any hint that the prophecies wouldn't be fulfilled till the 21st century.

[David M]

Hello Richard


That's fascinating! I agree it is speaking of "spiritual Israel." Just like all the prophecies that you apply to the regathering of "physical Israel". Case in point: Paul applied the prophecies from Ezekiel and Zechariah to the Church (spiritual Israel):
Before I remark on the verses you cite, let me recap what is the purpose of God regarding this planet earth. We are told that God created the earth to be inhabited. Before the fall of Adam, God we are told walked with Adam in the Garden. From the time of the fall, God has not walked with man (though we are to walk with God in our lives). God is redeeming man and the time will come when "God's glory shall fill the whole earth" when "God shall be all and in all" and when sin does not exist and God will again dwell with man and have the same relationship with man as he did with Adam before Adam's fall. The practical outworking of God's plan is the reality that will be on earth.



2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Ezekiel 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

There are lots of verses like that. Paul consistently said that the Church, the Body of Christ, was the fulfillment of the prophecies. He never gave any hint that the prophecies wouldn't be fulfilled till the 21st century.
Whilst I agree that we should look for the consistent message of God, the literal Israel and spiritual Israel which we can say is the true church, can be kept apart for now but will be united in the time to come. It is clear to me that God is working out his plan and purpose with this earth using the nation of Israel as an example and his witnesses. What happens to literal Israel as in the prophecies of Ezekiel and Zechariah is proof that God is keeping his word and Israel is witnessing (unknowingly) to the fact that God's word is being fulfilled. In parallel with this, we have spiritual Israel which is made up of the faithful, who God will select to be in his kingdom, which is the reality on earth that is to come. Literal Israel also has to be converted so that they will eventually recognize Christ. God's chosen race is living in God's land given to them, which is also Abraham's inheritance and will become the centre of the kingdom to be established on earth at the return of Jesus. Eventually, the whole earth will become the kingdom of God as it gets restored. Those who are part of spiritual Israel now will realize the gift of God (eternal life) in the kingdom of God with Jerusalem at the centre. What God has in store for infinity we are not told, but there is nothing to suggest that we shall not get bored living for eternity on this earth. I see a coming together of literal Israel and spiritual Israel whcih will become like-minded and will be literal. Eventually, there will be one government, one LORD, one language and the world will be united.

The prophecies of Zechariah and Ezekiel relate very much to literal Israel and where we can see the association with spiritual Israel then so much the better, but literal Israel cannot be excluded for God is fulfilling his promises to Abraham and God has promised not to make a "full end" of Israel and so God has restored Israel has foretold. This is taking place in readiness for Christ's return. I see no conflict in Paul's writing and in Corinthians 15:24 -28 we have the future role of Jesus explained in which the culmination of the work of Christ is to hand back to God the restored kingdom.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In this context we have to see God working to bring about events that will lead to the return of Christ. The things which God does are called "heavenly" as coming from God in Heaven and not taking place in Heaven. The situation is coming, when God will dwell with man again (as he did with Adam before the fall) and then we literally have Heaven (God's dwelling place) on earth. Hence, the kingdom on earth, and the kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Heaven are all one of the same in the time that is eventually to come. These things are taking place in stages and until sin is eradicated, God will not dwell with man on the earth.

I recently replied to a post about God hiding himself. That is the way God is seen at present and God is not seen to be in the earth. This does not mean God is not communicating with man and it is Paul who says (Hebrews 1:2); Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, for whom also he made the worlds; God has not abandoned his plan and even now his eyes are on his land (the land of Israel) and he is working in the kingdoms of men to bring about his purpose. God is hiding, in the sense that he is not walking with man as he did with Adam before the fall, and so there is coming a time when God will walk with man and not be hidden. For the moment, we have to live by faith and not by sight though God is openly showing he is at work by bringing about his purpose as we see fulfilled in the prophecies now taking place. In these last days before Christ's return, Israel has been restored as a nation. The outworking of God's plan is upon this earth and not in the ethereal heavens which are the figment of men's imaginations.

All the best

David

[David M]

Indeed. There is much in what I see as the fantasy you wrote above to disagree with.

If there was no place for sin in God's kingdom, why did he put it here or allow it in heaven in Satan?

I do agree with some of your quotes above but not the way you use them.
The following shows you what Jesus really taught.


What do you think?

Regards
DL

Hello DL

I watched the video and whilst the man started off OK, I soon found myself disagreeing with some of the things he is saying. I think you would do better to spend your time not searching for videos like this and watching them, but rather you spend time reading and pondering on the word of God and forming your own opinion. I think we will do better by not talking about what this man says and instead read passages of the Bible and determine for ourselves, in light of other Bible passages, what we are meant to understand.
We can look for wisdom in God's word. Wisdom that is not found by those who do not look for it; like they miss the point of the parables.

Thinking spiritually is to focus one's mind on the word of God and think about the kingdom to come and what is required to get to the kingdom and receive the gift of God, which is eternal life. This said, I have prepared a list and compiled it in the form of a table and on one side of the table is eternal live and on the other side is death. Below each heading is the list of things that will produce one or the other outcome. I have included a Bible reference to support each point in the list and this is what you should think about.

I will post this now starting a new thread.

All the best

David

[Greatest I am]

Hello DL

I watched the video and whilst the man started off OK, I soon found myself disagreeing with some of the things he is saying. I think you would do better to spend your time not searching for videos like this and watching them, but rather you spend time reading and pondering on the word of God and forming your own opinion.
David


Yes. I did that above with your other post speaking of the evil in heaven that God cast out and you say cannot be there.

Strange that God can throw something out that you say is not there.

Keep up the work my friend. Having posters like you makes my Job of discrediting your religion easy.

Regards
DL