The Abomination of Desolation in Daniel

[eliyahu]

There is considerable debate about the fulfillment(s) of the 'abomination that causes desolation." Richard wants to know what I believe is not fulfilled in Daniel about the "willful king, little horn."

First of all, Daniel 11:1-35 can be quite well attested to apply to Antiochus Epiphanes 4 in 168 BC, and the period before and after that year. However, there is a point in the prophecy from verse 36 and on which cannot be nailed down as fulfilled by that man. There are numerous reasons to anticipate these verses' fulfillment in the future. This is not an attempt to force Daniel to fortell a future antichrist. This is simply using what historical info that we can cross examine and see that Antiochus cannot be described in Daniel 11:36-45.
Daniel 11:36-45.
"36. "Then the king will do as he pleases , and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished , for that which is decreed will be done . (This is not a very historically accurate description of Antiochus. He did claim himself as diety in coins found. But he did not prosper until his end. It was common for rulers to be acknowledged as dieties or sons of the dieties or to be identified with dieties in that time.)
37. "He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women , nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all. (Antiochus did in fact honor Zeus/Jupiter, and others. He even put a statue of Zeus inthe temple when he desecrated it. This is not applicable to Antiochus.)
38. "But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold , silver , costly stones and treasures . (an apparent contradiction used here as a literary device. This person will be devoted to battle like a religion. There will be no cost too high for his battles and victories which are his "worship.")
39. "He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god ; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price . (Again, not applicable to Antiochus.)
40. "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots , with horsemen and with many ships ; and he will enter countries , overflow them and pass through . (Again, not applicable to Antiochus. He did not do such.)
41. "He will also enter the Beautiful Land , and many countries will fall ; but these will be rescued out of his hand : Edom , Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon . (Again, not applicable to Antiochus. He did not enter Israel again. After the exile, the Moabites no longer even had a country. This is poetic language for nations which were then perpetual enemies of Israel and therefore found favor with this antichrist figure.)
42. "Then he will stretch out his hand against other countries , and the land of Egypt will not escape. (Egypt was not overthrown by any such person. But at the time, Egypt had remained self governing always. They were never overthrown. This future king would be powerful enough to overthrow even the strongest of nations which were never overthrown heretofore. Egypt cannot be the literal fulfillment of this passage, like Moab also.)
43. "But he will gain control over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the precious things of Egypt; and Libyans and Ethiopians will follow at his heels. (These two countries were Egypts allies at the time. That is why they "follow at the heels." Allies of the most powerul nations will be forced to follow the antichrist figure when their support and defense from their more powerful ally(ies) is removed. He will gain much finances from his defeat of the "Egyptians" of his time. Antiochus ran out of money to fund attacks in Israel just before he died. Therefore this is not applicable to 168 BC.)
44. "But rumors from the East and from the North will disturb him, and he will go forth with great wrath to destroy and annihilate many. (Again, not applicable to Antiochus. He never did this either. He ran out of funds to return to Israel with a military campaign. Then he got sick and died in another land.)
45. "He will pitch the tents of his royal pavilion between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain; yet he will come to his end , and no one will help him." (Again, not applicable to Antiochus. He never returned to the land and set up tents.)

Daniel 9:24-27
"24. "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city , to finish the transgression , to make an end of sin , to make atonement for iniquity , to bring in everlasting righteousness , to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. ("sealing up vision and prophecy" is the point of our contention. I see this as Jesus' first coming having begun the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies and, through the power of His resurrection and ascension, having set in unstoppable motion the remainder of the prophecies applicable to His return and thereafter.)
25. "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ; it will be built again , with plaza and moat , even in times of distress .
26. "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing , and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary . And its end will come with a flood ; even to the end there will be war ; desolations are determined. (This is very difficult to explain no matter how you do it. For time's sake I will say that I believe it fits the 70th week to around 27 AD. The description of the week perfectly fits the work of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection, the destruction of the temple described here and the final wars over Jerusalem in 70 AD and 132 AD.)
27. "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering ; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate , even until a complete destruction , one that is decreed , is poured out on the one who makes desolate." (I cannot see where this can describe events in 67-70 AD. What covenant? What controversial breaking of that covenant? When did any one person who made a covenant with someone stop the daily sacrifice? Who is this "one" individual who was destroyed? The answer is that, like Daniel 11:36-45, and to be understood alongside that passage when it is viewed as yet future, this is yet future.

Daniel 8:9-14
"9. Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south , toward the east , and toward the Beautiful Land.
10. It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth , and it trampled them down .
11. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down .
12. And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper .
13. Then I heard a holy one speaking , and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking , "How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror , so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled ?"
14. He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings ; then the holy place will be properly restored ."

This can easily be applied to Antiochus 4 in 168 BC. The exact number of days which left the temple desolated and defiled does not seems to perfectly fit. But it was very close to 3 1/2 years as far as the historical records indicate. These numbers were apparently was not meant to be taken as ridgidly scientifically literal, much like the "thousand years" in Revelation.

Daniel 12:7-13.
"7. I heard the man dressed in linen (quite possibly Jesus in His preincarnate form), who was above the waters of the river , as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven , and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time , times , and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people , all these events will be completed .
8. As for me, I heard but could not understand ; so I said , "My lord , what will be the outcome of these events?"
9. He said , "Go your way, Daniel , for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time . (This is to be understood in light of Dan 9:24. The time when Messiah would come and be cut off or killed will be when all the OT prophecies will begin to see their fulfillment unfold. That is why I can agree with the apostles that we are living in the "end of the age. last days." It can last for 2,000 years + because it is not in reference to counting literal calander days at all. The "last days" is refering to the times which Messiah's death and resurrection and ascension initiated and set in motion. There is yet to be numerous prophecies fulfilled. The devil must be removed from the earth for a season and then later forever. All of God's promises to Israel in regard to the Messianic kind and the land and eternal peace, the eternally joyful return of the remnant of Jews to the land at the hands of heart changed Gentiles, the "new earth" to come about after the throne of judgment and resurrection are yet future.)
10. "Many will be purged , purified and refined , but the wicked will act wickedly ; and none of the wicked will understand , but those who have insight will understand .
11. "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days .
12. "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 11,335 days!

(I can take these numbers, which have been historically fulfilled at least once in 168 BC, and take the fact that they were not fulfilled mathematically literally and then, and apply that logic (as well as the non-literal prophecies about the nations in 11:40-43) and understand that this is a description of the divinely controlled, most great and terrible season of time just before Jesus returns. This season is called "the great and terrible day of the Lord." This is also how we can understand the use of the 3 & 1/2 years are used in Revelation taken from Daniel here.)
13. "But as for you, go your way to the end ; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age ."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There is considerable debate about the fulfillment(s) of the 'abomination that causes desolation." Richard wants to know what I believe is not fulfilled in Daniel about the "willful king, little horn."

First of all, Daniel 11:1-35 can be quite well attested to apply to Antiochus Epiphanes 4 in 168 BC, and the period before and after that year. However, there is a point in the prophecy from verse 36 and on which cannot be nailed down as fulfilled by that man. There are numerous reasons to anticipate these verses' fulfillment in the future. This is not an attempt to force Daniel to fortell a future antichrist. This is simply using what historical info that we can cross examine and see that Antiochus cannot be described in Daniel 11:36-45.

Hey Eliyahu,

I think this is a good point to focus on. But I think it is very important to note right up front that much of the interpetation of these verses is highly speculative and can not be confirmed with any certainty, so we need to look elsewhere to the main and plain things to establish the overall contours of our eschatlogy, and then interpret these verses in light of that.


27. "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering ; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate , even until a complete destruction , one that is decreed , is poured out on the one who makes desolate." (I cannot see where this can describe events in 67-70 AD. What covenant? What controversial breaking of that covenant? When did any one person who made a covenant with someone stop the daily sacrifice? Who is this "one" individual who was destroyed? The answer is that, like Daniel 11:36-45, and to be understood alongside that passage when it is viewed as yet future, this is yet future.

I don't see a problem here.

What covenant? The covenant "confirmed" by Jesus is the New Covenant. His sacrifice put an end to the meaning of the sacrificial system which then was formally extinghished in 70 AD.

What controversial breaking of that covenant? There is no mention of any controversial breaking of that covenant.

When did any one person who made a covenant with someone stop the daily sacrifice? Jesus ended the Jewish system of sacrifice by His final sacrifice.

Who is this "one" individual who was destroyed? That's a faulty translation. Where did you find it?

I do not see how you can suggest Dan 9:27 is still future. Everything in its immediate context points to the first century when Christ was "cut off" and the Temple destroyed, precisely as stated. To assert it is still future directly contradicts the prophecy which says there will be 70 sevens which we know ended in the first century (unless you invent 2000+ year gap, which is unjustifiable and contradictory of the temporal nature of the prophecy). It also contradicts Dan 12:6-7 which says it would all be fulfilled when the power of the holy people was shattered and which was confirmed by Christ in the OD (Luke 21:22).

The fundamental problem with this approach to futurism is that you are taking verses out of a context in which everything else was obviously fulfilled and taking those fragments and pushing them into the distant future. Futhermore, all the passages that you are using to establish the futurist doctrine are highly speculative and require a tremendous amount of interpretation, whereas the verses with plain meaning, like "the Messiah will be cut off, and the Temple destroyed" are obviously fulfilled in the first century.

This is why i can not accept your suggestion of a future fulfillment - there is no solid foundation for any of it. I just can not find anything that compells me to believe those obscur fragments of Daniel's otherwise fulfilled prophecies are yet future.


Daniel 12:7-13.
"7. I heard the man dressed in linen (quite possibly Jesus in His preincarnate form), who was above the waters of the river , as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven , and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time , times , and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people , all these events will be completed .
8. As for me, I heard but could not understand ; so I said , "My lord , what will be the outcome of these events?"
9. He said , "Go your way, Daniel , for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time . (This is to be understood in light of Dan 9:24. The time when Messiah would come and be cut off or killed will be when all the OT prophecies will begin to see their fulfillment unfold. That is why I can agree with the apostles that we are living in the "end of the age. last days." It can last for 2,000 years + because it is not in reference to counting literal calander days at all. The "last days" is refering to the times which Messiah's death and resurrection and ascension initiated and set in motion.

I see no justification for the idea that the "last days" really means an era of 2000 years or more. That does not seem consistent with the Biblical language. It seems invented to fit a theory of future fulfillments.

I also have a very big problem with your idea that the consummation of hte 70 weeks was only "when all the OT prophecies will begin to see their fulfillment unfold." That's not what the prophecy says at all. The prophecy says that everything happening durring those 70 weeks would finally be totally and completely fulfilled within 490 years, which ended in the first century. If we try to stretch it out for 2490 years, we have utterly destroyed the temporal meaning of the prophecy, which was an essential aspect of it.


There is yet to be numerous prophecies fulfilled.
That is a matter of interpretation. ;)


The devil must be removed from the earth for a season and then later forever.

The only prophecy that might suggest that seems to be Rev 20, correct? Well, that's a highly debated prophecy near the end of a highly debated and extremely symbolic books, so I wouldn't use it as my "poster prophecy" that demands the futurist interpretetion. On the contrary, the interp of Rev 20 will be the production of whatever eschatological system is demanded by the main and plain passages. It can not be used as the foundation becasue its meaning dependes on whatever conclusions you have already concluded elsewhere.


All of God's promises to Israel in regard to the Messianic kind and the land and eternal peace, the eternally joyful return of the remnant of Jews to the land at the hands of heart changed Gentiles, the "new earth" to come about after the throne of judgment and resurrection are yet future.)

Well ... that's been a point of contention for a long time. I have clearly stated my reasons for rejecting it, and I am not aware of any argument that I have not successfully refuted. But I would be delighted to be reminded of such if such exists.

thanks for the great post Eliyahu,

Richard

[eliyahu]

Hi Richard.

Did you label yourself as "fiesty" or was that put on you by someone else? :lol: I will have to get back another time. :thumb:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard.

Did you label yourself as "fiesty" or was that put on you by someone else? :lol: I will have to get back another time. :thumb:

It was used in a description of me in an introductory post (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?p=31&highlight=feisty#post31) from an old friend back when the forum first opened in June O7.

It seemed appropiate for obvious reasons, I suppose :lol:

Richard

[wstruse]

Hello Richard and Eliyahu,

Here is a little more information on how the Maccabees considered Judas the Messiah. It is quite interesting to see how they interpreted the prophecies of Daniel. It is important to note the Maccabees were the first historically documented Jewish Messianic expectants to claim fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel. The excerpt below is taken from Chapter 3 of my book on Daniel 9. The excerpt is from a larger quote by D. Davidson.


******Please note the Red lettering and Tables have been added by Wstruse********

I -- THE MACCABAEAN THEORY -- 168-165 B.C.;
(Refer Josephus Ant. 12:246-253):

In 168 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes captured and destroyed Jerusalem, profaned the sanctuary, and forbade the daily sacrifice. In 165 B.C. Judas Maccabaeus - the deliverer - defeated the forces of Antiochus Epiphanies, and on 25th Chisleu cleansed the sanctuary. The latter date is 3835.25 A.K., or December 165 B.C. The sequence of historical events was hailed by the Jews as confirming Daniel’s prophecies. The purely Jewish national conception of the promised Messianic Kingdom was believed to be in process of fulfillment. The prophecy of 70 weeks was applied as follows: -

Day-unit of Hebdomad (= week) taken as 9 lunar months.
Hebdomad (weeks) = 7 x 9 lunar months.
69 weeks = 69 x 7 x 9 lunations = 351.5 Solar years.

69 'weeks = 483 'year' units
Each 'year' was figured with 9 lunar cycles = 265.77 days each.
265.77 days x 483 'year' units = 351.5 Solar years.
(9 x 29.53 x 483 = 128366.9 days / 365.24 = 351.47 Solar years)

Dating from the Divine Command to build 2nd Temple, 2nd year of Darius I.
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T30a.gif

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T31.gif

Daniel 9:25,26 was read in conjunction with Daniel 12:11-12 as given 1290 and 1335 literal days during which 'the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up.' This gave 3.5 to 3.75 years from desolation to cleansing, thus:
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T30b.gif

From the apparent identity fictitiously presented by the Jews, and proclaimed by Josephus, critics have deemed that the Book of Daniel was not written until after Judas Maccabaeus had cleansed the sanctuary. Such critics claim that Daniel was written to hearten the followers of the Maccabees. If this had been the case, a better unit value, than the 9 lunar months adopted, would have been selected., --- 7,12 or 14. But 9 as a Hebrew unit would carry little weight in Judaea. Obviously the prophecy existed long before Antiochus Epiphanes. The recurrence of circumstances similar to those predicted by Daniel led to the identity. Hence the unit was accepted as it appeared to fit. The prophecy did actually hearten the Jews to accomplish under Judas the defeat of Antiochus and to effect the cleansing of the sanctuary.
_______________________________________________end

You can read the full quote of Chapter 3 here:

Countdown To The Messiah - The 70 "Weeks" Fulfilled (http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf)

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Hello WsTruse,

I'm pleased to see the research you've provided on the time-lines. I thank you for your work which must have taken a great deal.

I did not know that some Jews viewed Judas as the Messiah. I do believe (myself anyways) that Daniel's vision was fulfilled when Antiochus profained and destroyed the sanctuary. I know he didn't burn it to the ground, but he did alter it to conform to his likeness, for the god of Jupiter (Zeus).

Now considering I view the "Abomination of Desolation" as fulfilled during the reign of Antiochus, how do I tie this to the words of Christ towards the Apostles? Quite simply this.

Jesus said, "When you see the abomination spoke of by the prophet Daniel [LET THE READER UNDERSTAND] then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountain....

Now why did Matthew say, "Let the reader understand"? In my opinion it was because Matthew was trying to show that what happened during the reign of Antoichus IV, would be repeated in 70 AD. Of course, when Matthew wrote the gospel, 70 AD had not yet occurred. So my opinion could be wrong.

It's also quite possible that the phrase "Let the reader understand" was included in a later transcription of the letter, and was not part of the original text.

So was it Matthew who stated "Let the reader understand", or was it the very words of Christ? I'm interested in your comments.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard and Eliyahu,

Here is a little more information on how the Maccabees considered Judas the Messiah. It is quite interesting to see how they interpreted the prophecies of Daniel. It is important to note the Maccabees were the first historically documented Jewish Messianic expectants to claim fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel. The excerpt below is taken from Chapter 3 of my book on Daniel 9. The excerpt is from a larger quote by D. Davidson.


******Please note the Red lettering and Tables have been added by Wstruse********

I -- THE MACCABAEAN THEORY -- 168-165 B.C.;
(Refer Josephus Ant. 12:246-253):

In 168 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes captured and destroyed Jerusalem, profaned the sanctuary, and forbade the daily sacrifice. In 165 B.C. Judas Maccabaeus - the deliverer - defeated the forces of Antiochus Epiphanies, and on 25th Chisleu cleansed the sanctuary. The latter date is 3835.25 A.K., or December 165 B.C. The sequence of historical events was hailed by the Jews as confirming Daniel’s prophecies. The purely Jewish national conception of the promised Messianic Kingdom was believed to be in process of fulfillment. The prophecy of 70 weeks was applied as follows: -

Day-unit of Hebdomad (= week) taken as 9 lunar months.
Hebdomad (weeks) = 7 x 9 lunar months.
69 weeks = 69 x 7 x 9 lunations = 351.5 Solar years.

69 'weeks = 483 'year' units
Each 'year' was figured with 9 lunar cycles = 265.77 days each.
265.77 days x 483 'year' units = 351.5 Solar years.
(9 x 29.53 x 483 = 128366.9 days / 365.24 = 351.47 Solar years)

Dating from the Divine Command to build 2nd Temple, 2nd year of Darius I.
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T30a.gif

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T31.gif

Daniel 9:25,26 was read in conjunction with Daniel 12:11-12 as given 1290 and 1335 literal days during which 'the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up.' This gave 3.5 to 3.75 years from desolation to cleansing, thus:
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T30b.gif

From the apparent identity fictitiously presented by the Jews, and proclaimed by Josephus, critics have deemed that the Book of Daniel was not written until after Judas Maccabaeus had cleansed the sanctuary. Such critics claim that Daniel was written to hearten the followers of the Maccabees. If this had been the case, a better unit value, than the 9 lunar months adopted, would have been selected., --- 7,12 or 14. But 9 as a Hebrew unit would carry little weight in Judaea. Obviously the prophecy existed long before Antiochus Epiphanes. The recurrence of circumstances similar to those predicted by Daniel led to the identity. Hence the unit was accepted as it appeared to fit. The prophecy did actually hearten the Jews to accomplish under Judas the defeat of Antiochus and to effect the cleansing of the sanctuary.
_______________________________________________end

You can read the full quote of Chapter 3 here:

Countdown To The Messiah - The 70 "Weeks" Fulfilled (http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf)

Warm Regards,
Wstruse
Hi WStruse,

Thanks for the info - a few quick questions: 1) What is the book title and page number of the quote from Davidson? 2) What does "A.K." mean? 3) Are there any other sources supporting the "nine lunar months" theory?

Thanks again!

Richard

[wstruse]

Hello Richard,

The book title is The Great Pyramid: Its Divine Message by D. Davidson and C. Aldersmith. The quote comes from Page 352 ANNOTATIONS (E) to table XXVIII. The book was published in 1924. A.K. means Anno Kalandri. (not sure if I have the spelling right) In short A.K. is the year of Adams Creation. It is just Davidson’s means of identifying it. As to the 9 lunar month theory there are no other sources that I am aware of that directly state it as such. Davidson’s calculations are based on the dates of Josephus in Ant. 12:320-323, I Mac. 1:44-54 and the Calculations of Isaac Newton (Ancient Kingdoms Amended)

To verify Davidson’s work I personally calculated the 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 20th year of each Persian king who could possibly qualify as giving the 'commandment to restore and build'. Each of these dates was calculated using the 365.24 and 360 day year as well as a 9,10,11,12,13,14,16,18 cycle 'lunar' year. What I found verified Davidson’s and Newton’s calculations. In order for the Maccabees to claim that Judas was the Messiah based on Daniel 9 they could have only used a 9 lunar cycle calculation. I am not trying to self promote here but if you would take the time to read Chapter 3 in the link in the previous post you will see as Newton and Davidson both showed that the entire Jewish chronology was adapted so that each of their messianic heroes could fulfilled the 70 'weeks' vision. This has led to the corruption of the modern Jewish chronology as well as the Christian chronology relating to Ezra and Nehemiah and the 'Divine Command'. It‘s really a testimony to the power of the Daniel 9.

I would like to add a few of my personal thoughts on Davidson’s book. In the late 1800’s and the early 1900’s there was tremendous interest in the Great Pyramid. Many books were written and theories proposed concerning this most amazing structure. It was one of the few if not the only structures in ancient Egypt without any hieroglyphic markings on its finished surfaces. (internal or external) In the ancient Egyptian writings it was described in messianic terms. It is claimed by some modern scholars that the Biblical account was derived from many of these ancient traditions associated with the Great Pyramid. Napoleon, Newton, Pizzia Smyth, Rutherford, Petrie, Davidson and many of the great Greek historians and other famous and not so famous people measured, investigated and debated the subject of this ancient wonder.

It is claimed by many that the Great Pyramid was build before the flood and was a type of chronograph. By measuring its internal passages using 1' = 1 year it was believe that it gave the history of mankind (in symbolic form). Some interesting 'coincidences' that are found when measuring its passages and external surfaces is that it marked the dating of the Flood, the Exodus, the Birth, Death and Resurrection of the Messiah as well as the Church age, the modern age and several periods of possible 'tribulation'.

Just to leave you really shacking your head in disbelief is that the Great Pyramid never had a 'headstone' . The headstone did not fit the building as built. It was rejected by its builders.
I personally have found it amazing that hundreds of year before the Torah was ever given to Moses the Pyramid gave a similar if not an exact representation of the Hebrew chronology from Adam to Yashua.

Here is what Josephus had to say:

Antiquities of the Jews 1:68-71 Now this Seth, when he was brought up, and came to those years in which he could discern what was good, became a virtuous man; and as he was himself of an excellent character, so did he leave children behind him who imitated his virtues. {d} 69 All these proved to be of good dispositions. They also inhabited the same country without dissensions, and in a happy condition, without any misfortunes falling upon them till they died. They also were the inventors of that peculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies, and their order. 70 And that their inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire, and at another time by the violence and quantity of water, they made two pillars, {e} the one of brick, the other of stone: they inscribed their discoveries on them both, 71 that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit those discoveries to mankind; and also inform them that there was another pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land of Siriad to this day.

Here is what Isaiah says:

Isaiah 19:19-20 19 In that day shall there be an altar to YHWH in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to YHWH. 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto YHWH of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto YHWH because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

In reading Davidson’s work on the subject and many others I have found several things for which I have found little basis in my own research. The most prominent among these is there belief in British Israelism; the idea that America and England were the lost 10 tribes of Israel. How that fits with their belief concerning the Great Pyramid I do not have the time nor the inclination to address now. Another problem I have with their theories is that they contrived a 'special' chronology system which was not based on 1'=1 year. This chronology supposedly showed that the events of the great war (WW1) were part of the great tribulation proceeding the return of Christ. Their complicated theories were subsequently proven false and they naturally lost credibility. (and rightfully so) Unfortunately the proverbial baby was thrown out with the bath water. Had they just kept the simplicity of the original 1' = 1 year chronology they would have avoided much of the trouble that came with their 'special' chronology.

Back to the subject at hand however, below I have included several relevant passages concerning the Abomination of Desolation. These passages are part of the basis for both Newton and Davidson’s calculations.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse


Antiquities of the Jews 12:320-323 320 Now it so happened, that these things were done on the very same day on which their divine worship had stopped, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. 321 This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month of Apellaios, and on the hundred fifty and third Olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month of Apellaios, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth Olympiad. 322 And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would stop that worship [for some time]. 323 Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days; and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon: but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honoured God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms.

1 Maccabees 1:44-54 44 For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land, 45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days: 46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people: 47 Set up altars, and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine's flesh, and unclean beasts: 48 That they should also leave their children uncircumcised, and make their souls abominable with all manner of uncleanness and profanation: 49 To the end they might forget the law, and change all the ordinances. 50 And whosoever would not do according to the commandment of the king, he said, he should die. 51 In the selfsame manner wrote he to his whole kingdom, and appointed overseers over all the people, commanding the cities of Juda to sacrifice, city by city. 52 Then many of the people were gathered unto them, to wit every one that forsook the law; and so they committed evils in the land; 53 And drove the Israelites into secret places, even wheresoever they could flee for succour. 54 Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;

1 Maccabees 6:1-7 KJA 1 Maccabees 6:1 About that time king Antiochus travelling through the high countries heard say, that Elymais in the country of Persia was a city greatly renowned for riches, silver, and gold; 2 And that there was in it a very rich temple, wherein were coverings of gold, and breastplates, and shields, which Alexander, son of Philip, the Macedonian king, who reigned first among the Grecians, had left there. 3 Wherefore he came and sought to take the city, and to spoil it; but he was not able, because they of the city, having had warning thereof, 4 Rose up against him in battle: so he fled, and departed thence with great heaviness, and returned to Babylon. 5 Moreover there came one who brought him tidings into Persia, that the armies, which went against the land of Judea, were put to flight: 6 And that Lysias, who went forth first with a great power was driven away of the Jews; and that they were made strong by the armour, and power, and store of spoils, which they had gotten of the armies, whom they had destroyed: 7 Also that they had pulled down the abomination, which he had set up upon the altar in Jerusalem, and that they had compassed about the sanctuary with high walls, as before, and his city Bethsura.

Matthew 24:14-15 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Mark 13:14 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Against Apion 1:47-49 47 As for myself, I have composed a true history of that whole war, and of all the particulars that occurred therein, as having been concerned in all its transactions; 48 for I acted as general of those among us that are named Galileans, as long as it was possible for us to make any opposition. I was then seized by the Romans, and became a captive. Vespasian also and Titus had me kept under a guard, and forced me to attend them continually. At the first I was put into bonds; but was set at liberty afterward, and sent to accompany Titus when he came from Alexandria to the siege of Jerusalem; 49 during which time there was nothing done which escaped my knowledge; for what happened in the Roman camp I saw, and wrote down carefully; and what information the deserters brought [out of the city], I was the only man that understood them.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard,

The book title is The Great Pyramid: Its Divine Message by D. Davidson and C. Aldersmith. The quote comes from Page 352 ANNOTATIONS (E) to table XXVIII. The book was published in 1924. A.K. means Anno Kalandri. (not sure if I have the spelling right) In short A.K. is the year of Adams Creation. It is just Davidson’s means of identifying it. As to the 9 lunar month theory there are no other sources that I am aware of that directly state it as such. Davidson’s calculations are based on the dates of Josephus in Ant. 12:320-323, I Mac. 1:44-54 and the Calculations of Isaac Newton (Ancient Kingdoms Amended)

To verify Davidson’s work I personally calculated the 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 20th year of each Persian king who could possibly qualify as giving the 'commandment to restore and build'. Each of these dates was calculated using the 365.24 and 360 day year as well as a 9,10,11,12,13,14,16,18 cycle 'lunar' year. What I found verified Davidson’s and Newton’s calculations. In order for the Maccabees to claim that Judas was the Messiah based on Daniel 9 they could have only used a 9 lunar cycle calculation. I am not trying to self promote here but if you would take the time to read Chapter 3 in the link in the previous post you will see as Newton and Davidson both showed that the entire Jewish chronology was adapted so that each of their messianic heroes could fulfilled the 70 'weeks' vision. This has led to the corruption of the modern Jewish chronology as well as the Christian chronology relating to Ezra and Nehemiah and the 'Divine Command'. It‘s really a testimony to the power of the Daniel 9.

Thanks William :thumb:

Very helpful to get all the background info.

Now as for the nine lunar months .... it appears that you are giving that info only to give motivation for your "novel" approach to Daniel's 70 sevens, correct? If I read your book correctly, you are suggesting that the actual chronology involved two interwoven chronologies that used a 13 month and 14 month "years", correct? You see the birth of Christ predicted when we use 1 year = 13 "lunar months" and the death of Christ predicted when we use 1 year = 14 "lunar months" starting with the decree to rebuild given by God through Haggai in 520 BC:

520 BC + 13 x 29.53 x 490 = 5 BC (Birth of Christ)
520 BC + 14 x 29.53 x 490 = 35 AD (End of the week in which Christ was crucified).

Now I know that this is your "life's work" and I certainly don't want to be unnecessarily critical, but I trust you will appreciate and benefit by my honest opinions. First, I want to reiterate that your book is very well presented and it contains a huge amount of valuable historical and biblical information. The layout is excellent. And your attitude towards Scripture as God's Word is admirable. But the result fails to convince me because I have no confidence at all that God really intended me to interpret the 70 "sevens" once as "13 lunar months" to calculate the birth of Christ and again as "14 lunar months" to calculate his death. Where does the Bible tell me to do anything like that? And without any initial motivation, how can I have any confidence that the results are anything but the result of "working" the data? Once you begin making interpretative choices about obscure historical events and crunching numbers, there is no end to the possibilities. And that's why the result fails to convince - they seem to be "overcooked."

Please understand that I'm just telling you how it seems to me. I could be wrong, and I certainly don't mean to discourage you. But I think its important for you to know why a person like me, who has studied the Bible for some decades now, has difficulty accepting your chronology. Perhaps it will help you hone your presentation.

God bless you William,

Richard

[wstruse]

Richard,

I truly appreciate your honest and upfront criticism. We all see things in different ways. One of the great benefits of your forum and others like it is it allows us to see our opinions and beliefs through the eyes of others. I can make no claim to direct divine inspiration. So what you read is merely my attempt to organize the information in a way that I believe most congruently addresses the facts.


Once you begin making interpretative choices about obscure historical events and crunching numbers, there is no end to the possibilities. And that's why the result fails to convince - they seem to be "overcooked."

I accept your above criticism in the sprit it was intended. I must in the same spirit hold your interpretation to the same standard. The same 'interpretative choices' and 'crunching numbers' are present as fact by many who hold a similar interpretation as you do. Here is an outline showing many of the place that 'interpretative choices' must be made by both of us if we are to believe that Yashua fulfilled the 70 'weeks' prophecy. Many of these points require 'crunching numbers' on both sides.

1. The starting point.
a. What is the scriptural basis for such?
b. What was the 'command to restore and build'?
c. Who gave the command?
d. When was it given?
e. What constitutes proof of the above?

2. How are the 70 'weeks' measured?
a. Upon what basis in Scripture to we assume each 'day' of the 'week' is equal to a 'year'.
b. Upon what basis do we assume a year equals 365.24 days?
c. Why do we even assume a year is meant?
d. If a Biblical year is meant, would it be 12 lunar months or 13. Both are currently used in a Biblical year.
e. Was a symbolic year meant?

3. How are the 70 weeks divided?
a. How does the messiah come after 7 'weeks'.
b. Why do we assume He was 'cut off' after 69 instead of 62?

4. How does our understanding of Daniel 9 influence our interpretation of the historical record concerning Yashua's life and ministry?

I am sure you see my point. Just about every one of the above points requires 'interpretative choices' and assumptive reasoning. Each of these points can be argued from a multitude of directions. Upon what contextual framework do these points most congruently adhere, primarily to the spirit of the Scriptural record and secondarily the historical? I am not trying to convince you of the validity of my opinion. I am just asking you to look at your own interpretation of Daniel 9 with the same critical eye.

I would like to ask your opinion. Would it would make any difference if I had left out the information about the 13th lunar cycle? Just using a 14 lunar symbolic year would still show that Yashua was 'cut off' after the 69th week. Today’s commonly accepted interpretation of Daniel 9 does no more than this. If I am understanding you right you believe the information about the 13th lunar cycle adds a dimension of incredibility. How could anyone invent such a coincidence? I know you think it seems overcooked. But how would you better explain it. What is the probability that two numbers symbolically related to the messiah could, using a common starting point provide such precise dating of the messiah’s birth and 30th year?

In fairness I must admit I am guilty of 'crunching the numbers'. I have calculated every date and every possible variable that I can come up with to see the probability of Yashua’s fulfillment of Daniel 9. I might add that I didn’t just calculate it to see if it supported my own theory. I calculated every other variable to see if it supported other theories as well.

In closing, please keep the constructive criticism coming. I find it most helpful and instructive. While I have spent many hours on this research it doesn’t even come close to a life’s work. My life’s work (all 5 of them) will shortly be off to bed and sleeping like angles.

Likewise, may YHWH bless you and yours.

Your fellow servant in Yashua the Messiah,

Wstruse

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,

I truly appreciate your honest and upfront criticism. We all see things in different ways. One of the great benefits of your forum and others like it is it allows us to see our opinions and beliefs through the eyes of others. I can make no claim to direct divine inspiration. So what you read is merely my attempt to organize the information in a way that I believe most congruently addresses the facts.

Hey there William,

Excellent post! :thumb:

Your answer shows that you are a true brother in the serious study of God's Word. It is great to be working with you on this.



Once you begin making interpretative choices about obscure historical events and crunching numbers, there is no end to the possibilities. And that's why the result fails to convince - they seem to be "overcooked."

I accept your above criticism in the sprit it was intended. I must in the same spirit hold your interpretation to the same standard. The same 'interpretative choices' and 'crunching numbers' are present as fact by many who hold a similar interpretation as you do.

Amen! I wouldn't have it any other way. You have brought to my attention serious and important criticisms that I was unaware of. I am in your debt.


Here is an outline showing many of the place that 'interpretative choices' must be made by both of us if we are to believe that Yashua fulfilled the 70 'weeks' prophecy. Many of these points require 'crunching numbers' on both sides.

1. The starting point.
a. What is the scriptural basis for such?
b. What was the 'command to restore and build'?
c. Who gave the command?
d. When was it given?
e. What constitutes proof of the above?

I think it would be very fruitful for us to examine all the points you raise. I will start by giving you the answers "off the top of my head" since they then will reflect the assumptions that I have made that may need correction.

a. I take it to be primarily the record of the post-exilic history and prophets (Ezra/Nehemiah and Hagai/Zechariah).

b. That point is highly debated of course. Some folks note the difference between building Jerusalem, building the Temple, and building the walls and draw conclusions from that. I have accepted (rather uncritically, I will admit) the rebuilding of Nehemiah in 444 BC as the most likely meaning. But that is a weak point in my understanding. And I rather doubt that any convincing arguments can be made that will solve this one. But since it fits well with the "big picture" and is easy to understand, I have accepted it, much as you have accepted some things that are less than certain because they fit the "big picture" as you see it.

c. I appreciate your argument that it was given by God and I agree that it is a possibility, but I do not find that to be a necessary conclusion and so it is insufficient to distinguish between competing scenarios.

d. No one knows for sure, but the best guesses are 520 BC (your choice), and either 457 BC or 444 BC - either of which works for me because I don't worry about the precise dates since there are too many historical uncertaintings in related areas. I believe that God gave us the 70 x 7 prophecy knowing that we could calculate the "prophetic window" of about 120 years between 50 BC and 70 AD which is all that is need to PROVE the prophecy was fulfilled in Christ. This then is simple enough for anyone to understand and verify for themselves, and so constitutes real proof that also is convincing because of its simplicity and clarity.

e. Hopefully, this thread will help establish what constitutes proof.


2. How are the 70 'weeks' measured?
a. Upon what basis in Scripture to we assume each 'day' of the 'week' is equal to a 'year'.
b. Upon what basis do we assume a year equals 365.24 days?
c. Why do we even assume a year is meant?
d. If a Biblical year is meant, would it be 12 lunar months or 13. Both are currently used in a Biblical year.
e. Was a symbolic year meant?

a. The Books of Numbers and Ezekiel both give warrant for the principle of "a day for a year." And it makes sense to many folks, myself included. We know the 70 "sevens" probably represent 490 units of time, and the year seems to be the most obvious fit. This then is confirmed after the fact by the close fit with the fulfillment in the first century.

b. We do not necessarily assume solar years. On the contrary, most folks seem to assume a 360 day "prophetic year" though I find that unconvincing. A thorough study would be required to choose between the Jewish variable year, a 360 day year, a solar year, or other possibilities. But to me, this is of little consequence because I believe that God gave the prophecy to be simply understood in terms of a "prophetic window" that anyone can see and understand without complex calculations. The window is wide enough to accomodate all such variations in the "year" and narrow enough to prove the fulfillment in Christ. That is all that is needed to accomplish the purpose of God as far as I can tell. The alternative leads to endless debate and no certain conclusion, and so seems contrary to the divine intent. Basically, we need to get a simple and clear "big picture" that anyone can see and understand or we really don't have anything sufficient to convince others of the truth of the Gospel.

c. We follow the natural units of time that God established on the Fourth Day. "Signs, Seasons, Days, Years." The year seems to be the most obvious choice.

d. Such ambiguity would need to be studied, but I have concluded it is irrelevent because the prophetic window remains essential unchanged regardless.

e. That is possible and would need to be discussed.


3. How are the 70 weeks divided?
a. How does the messiah come after 7 'weeks'.
b. Why do we assume He was 'cut off' after 69 instead of 62?

a. I agree that we need to discuss the possible meanings of the unusual construction, but I do not believe that it logically demands we understand it the way you suggest. I see nothing that logically precludes the possibility that it should be interpreted as saying that the Messiah would come after 7 + 62 = 69 weeks. But I agree of course that it is a difficult point in the interpretation.

b. Because it fits the general scenario, and we don't have a good alternative intepretation that fits in a simple and clear way with him being cut off after 7 weeks. But again, I admit this is a weak point.


4. How does our understanding of Daniel 9 influence our interpretation of the historical record concerning Yashua's life and ministry?



Well, our understanding of the dates implied by the 70 x 7 of Daniel 9 is only a relatively small part of the prophecy, and it could be ignored almost entirely without doing damage to our understanding of the relation of the prophecy to Christ if we just hold to the main and plain things, which I summarize as follows:
Daniel 9 says that the Messiah will come, be killed and so bring in everlasting righteousness and fulfill all prophecy, and that this would be soon followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Thats it! Look at its stark beauty and convincing power. We know it is true. We know that the only historical candidate for being the Jewish Messiah is Jesus Christ because the Temple has been destroyed, so we know the Messiah came before 70 AD. I consider this to be an extremely powerful and convincing argument, and that too much focus on the numerical details may actually distract from its grandeur, power, and clarity.


I am sure you see my point. Just about every one of the above points requires 'interpretative choices' and assumptive reasoning. Each of these points can be argued from a multitude of directions. Upon what contextual framework do these points most congruently adhere, primarily to the spirit of the Scriptural record and secondarily the historical? I am not trying to convince you of the validity of my opinion. I am just asking you to look at your own interpretation of Daniel 9 with the same critical eye.

I very much appreciate your point .... and I think it makes my point for me. We lose what we are trying to gain when we try to build a case on the "sands of time" which are imperfectly recorded. The records are very good for the "big picture" but the fine details are such that they can always be contested and so rarely give convincing answers.


I would like to ask your opinion. Would it would make any difference if I had left out the information about the 13th lunar cycle? Just using a 14 lunar symbolic year would still show that Yashua was 'cut off' after the 69th week. Today’s commonly accepted interpretation of Daniel 9 does no more than this. If I am understanding you right you believe the information about the 13th lunar cycle adds a dimension of incredibility. How could anyone invent such a coincidence? I know you think it seems overcooked. But how would you better explain it. What is the probability that two numbers symbolically related to the messiah could, using a common starting point provide such precise dating of the messiah’s birth and 30th year?

I don't believe the "coincidence" is as great as you think. The dates of Christ's birth and death are only a guesses, so you have two uncertainties, call them u1 and u2. The fact that you can arrive at u1 and u2 using two variable of the form x and x + 1 after choosing a fixed starting point and a "lunar calenar" simplyh does not seem significant to my mathematically trained mind. There are just too many other possibilities.

Here are the things that leave me unconvinced:

Your argument depends critically upon the starting date of 520 BC as the date when God gave the command to rebuild. I am not convinced that we must interpret the command as comming from God as opposed to one of the three Gentile kings who played prominent roles throught the period of rebuilding. So there is an element of doubt in the foundation of your arugment.

This doubt is amplified by the use of the Number 14 as the number of cycles, since there is nothing in Scripture that directly suggests that number.

And the doubt is increased again by the choice of lunar months, since that was only one of many possibilities.

And so it goes ... I trust it is obvious why I remain unconvinced.



In fairness I must admit I am guilty of 'crunching the numbers'. I have calculated every date and every possible variable that I can come up with to see the probability of Yashua’s fulfillment of Daniel 9. I might add that I didn’t just calculate it to see if it supported my own theory. I calculated every other variable to see if it supported other theories as well.

I very much appreciate the integrity of your study, and look forward to discussing it more with you.


In closing, please keep the constructive criticism coming. I find it most helpful and instructive. While I have spent many hours on this research it doesn’t even come close to a life’s work. My life’s work (all 5 of them) will shortly be off to bed and sleeping like angles.

Likewise, may YHWH bless you and yours.

Your fellow servant in Yashua the Messiah,

Wstruse
God bless you my brother. You are an excellent, gifted, and dilligent student of God's Word.

Talk more soon,

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Hello wstruse,

I've covered Daniel's 70 sevens a great deal in my years of study. I cannot prove it, but I'm 100% percent certain that the seventy sevens represents increments of seven years. The only trouble is knowing which group of years He (God) was talking about. Was it Jewish years? Was it Solar years? I just don't know. However, no matter which increment of seven you choose to follow (Jewish or Solar), you end up near the same point; at least in my opinion.

I'm convinced without waivering, that Daniel's seventy sevens was completed in the first century.

Joe

[Brother Les]

TheForgiven Hello wstruse,

I've covered Daniel's 70 sevens a great deal in my years of study. I cannot prove it, but I'm 100% percent certain that the seventy sevens represents increments of seven years. The only trouble is knowing which group of years He (God) was talking about. Was it Jewish years? Was it Solar years? I just don't know. However, no matter which increment of seven you choose to follow (Jewish or Solar), you end up near the same point; at least in my opinion.

I'm convinced without waivering, that Daniel's seventy sevens was completed in the first century.

Joe


The 'years' would have to be in a format that Daniel would understand. Wasn't their calander based on the Lunar cycle of 'new moons' to base when the start of the month was?

Brother Les