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wstruse
02-20-2008, 08:52 PM
Richard,

You may already have a thread on this but I couldn’t find it. I was curious what the early church 'fathers' had to say on the subject of the 2nd coming, end of this age and the 1000 years. Here are the quotes that I have come up with from my search of their writings. I have tried to include every relevant reference (pro or con). They are in no particular order just as I have found them. I would be interested in your opinion of the quotes. (in general) Personally I find it hard to understand how most of these men did not realized the 2nd coming had already taken place. Without further comment here they are.

Did Didache 16:1-8 APE Did Didache 16:1 Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. 2 But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. 3 For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; 4 for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. 5 Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. 6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; 7 yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. 8 Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

1Cl 1 Clement 34:3 And thus He forewarns us: Behold, the Lord cometh, and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work.

2Cl 2 Clement 16:1 - 17:1 APE 2Cl 2 Clement 16:1 Wherefore, brethren, having received no small occasion for repentance, while we have the opportunity, let us turn unto God that called us, while we still have Him as One that receiveth us. 2 For if we renounce these enjoyments and conquer our soul in not doing these its evil desires, we shall partake of the mercy of Jesus. 3 But ye know that the day of judgment even now "cometh as a burning oven," and some "of the heavens shall melt," and all the earth shall be as lead melting on the fire, and then the hidden and open works of men shall appear. 4 Almsgiving therefore is a good thing, as repentance from sin; fasting is better than prayer, but almsgiving than both; "but love covereth a multitude of sins." But prayer out of a good conscience delivereth from death. Blessed is every one that is found full of these; for alms-giving lighteneth the burden of sin.

Brn Epistle of Barnabas 15:1-5 APE Brn Epistle of Barnabas 15:1 Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which the Lord spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." 2 And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." 3 The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation thus: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." 4 Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. 5 "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming again, shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day.

IMl Ignatius to the Magnesians (long) 9:3-6 3 For say the holy oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. 4 And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. 5 Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day," on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Savior, deny, "whose God is their belly, who mind earthly things," who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." 6 These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Pap Fragments of Papias 6:1 APE Pap Fragments of Papias 6:1 Papias, who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he moreover asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions. Our notice of these circumstances may not be without its use. It may also be worth while to add to the statements of Papias already given, other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition. The residence of the Apostle Philip with his daughters in Hierapolis has been mentioned above. We must now point out how Papias, who lived at the same time, relates that he had received a wonderful narrative from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that a dead man was raised to life in his day. He also mentions another miracle relating to Justus, surnamed Barsabas, how he swallowed a deadly poison, and received no harm, on account of the grace of the Lord. The same person, moreover, has set down other things as coming to him from unwritten tradition, amongst these some strange parables and instructions of the Savior, and some other things of a more fabulous nature. Amongst these he says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth. He

MPo Martyrdom of Polycarp 11:1-2 APE MPo Martyrdom of Polycarp 11:1 The proconsul then said to him, "I have wild beasts at hand; to these will I cast thee, except thou repent." But he answered, "Call them then, for we are not accustomed to repent of what is good in order to adopt that which is evil; and it is well for me to be changed from what is evil to what is righteous." 2 But again the proconsul said to him, "I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, seeing thou despisest the wild beasts, if thou wilt not repent." But Polycarp said, "Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly. But why tarriest thou? Bring forth what thou wilt."

HV2 Hermas Vision 2 2:7-8 7 Stand steadfast, therefore, ye who work righteousness, and doubt not, that your passage may be with the holy angels. Happy ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life. 8 For the Lord hath sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life in despair, for even now these are to deny Him in the days that are coming. To those who denied in earlier times, God became gracious, on account of His exceeding tender mercy.

HV4 Hermas Vision 4 2:4-6 4 "Well did you escape from it," says she, "because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than by His great and glorious name. On this account the Lord has sent His angel, who has rule over the beasts, and whose name is Thegri, and has shut up its mouth, so that it cannot tear you. You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. 5 Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord, and He will direct them. 6 Trust the Lord, ye who doubt, for He is all-powerful, and can turn His anger away from you, and send scourges on the doubters. Woe to those who hear these words, and despise them: better were it for them not to have been born."

Did Didache 16:1-8 APE Did Didache 16:1 Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. 2 But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. 3 For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; 4 for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. 5 Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. 6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; 7 yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. 8 Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

wstruse
02-20-2008, 08:54 PM
1Cl 1 Clement 50:1 - 51:1 APE 1Cl 1 Clement 50:1 Ye see, beloved, how great and wonderful a thing is love, and that there is no declaring its perfection. 2 Who is fit to be found in it, except such as God has vouchsafed to render so? Let us pray, therefore, and implore of His mercy, that we may live blameless in love, free from all human partialities for one above another. 3 All the generations from Adam even unto this day have passed away; but those who, through the grace of God, have been made perfect in love, now possess a place among the godly, and shall be made manifest at the revelation of the kingdom of Christ. 4 For it is written, Enter into thy secret chambers for a little time, until my wrath and fury pass away; and I will remember a propitious day, and will raise you up out of your graves. 5 Blessed are we, beloved, if we keep the commandments of God in the harmony of love; that so through love our sins may be forgiven us. 6 For it is written, Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not impute to him, and in whose mouth there is no guile. 7 This blessedness cometh upon those who have been chosen by God through Jesus Christ our Lord; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Pap Fragments of Papias 7:1 - 8:1 APE Pap Fragments of Papias 7:1 Papias thus speaks, word for word: To some of them angels He gave dominion over the arrangement of the world, and He commissioned them to exercise their dominion well. And he says, immediately after this: but it happened that their arrangement came to nothing. APE Pap Fragments of Papias 8:1 With regard to the inspiration of the book (Revelation), we deem it superfluous to add another word; for the blessed Gregory Theologus and Cyril, and even men of still older date, Papias, Irenaeus, Methodius, and Hippolytus, bore entirely satisfactory testimony to it.

Pap Fragments of Papias 9:1 APE Pap Fragments of Papias 9:1 Taking occasion from Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ, and Clemens, and Pantaenus the priest of the Church of the Alexandrians, and the wise Ammonius, the ancient and first expositors, who agreed with each other, who understood the work of the six days as referring to Christ and the whole Church.

2Cl 2 Clement 19:3 - 20:1 3 Let us then practice righteousness that we may be saved unto the end. Blessed are they that obey these ordinances. Even if for a little time they suffer evil in the world, they shall enjoy the immortal fruit of the resurrection. 4 Let not then the godly man be grieved, if he be wretched in the times that now are; a blessed time waits for him. He, living again above with the fathers, shall be joyful for an eternity without grief.

IMl Ignatius to the Magnesians (long) 11:1 - 12:1 APE IMl Ignatius to the Magnesians (long) 11:1 These things I address to you, my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christkilling Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works. He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us ever be turned aside!

ISl Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans (long) 3:1-4 APE ISl Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans (long) 3:1 And I know that He was possessed of a body not only in His being born and crucified, but I also know that He was so after His resurrection, and believe that He is so now. 2 When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, "Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit." "For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have." And He says to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger into the print of the nails, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side;" and immediately they believed that He was Christ. Wherefore Thomas also says to Him, "My Lord, and my God." And on this account also did they despise death, for it were too little to say, indignities and stripes. 3 Nor was this all; but also after He had shown Himself to them, that He had risen indeed, and not in appearance only, He both ate and drank with them during forty entire days. And thus was He, with the flesh, received up in their sight unto Him that sent Him, being with that same flesh to come again, accompanied by glory and power. 4 For, say the holy oracles, "This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye have seen Him go unto heaven." But if they say that He will come at the end of the world without a body, how shall those "see Him that pierced Him," and when they recognize Him, "mourn for themselves?" For incorporeal beings have neither form nor figure, nor the aspect of an animal possessed of shape, because their nature is in itself simple.

2Cl 2 Clement 5:1-7 world, let us do the will of Him that called us, and not fear to depart out of this world. 2 For the Lord saith, "Ye shall be as lambs in the midst of wolves." 3 And Peter answered and said unto Him, "What, then, if the wolves shall tear in pieces the lambs?" 4 Jesus said unto Peter, "The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear the wolves; and in like manner, fear not ye them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hell-fire." 5 And consider, brethren, that the sojourning in the flesh in this world is but brief and transient, but the promise of Christ is great and wonderful, even the rest of the kingdom to come, and of life everlasting. 6 By what course of conduct, then, shall we attain these things, but by leading a holy and righteous life, and by deeming these worldly things as not belonging to us, and not fixing our desires upon them? 7 For if we desire to possess them, we fall away from the path of righteousness.

2Cl 2 Clement 12:1 APE 2Cl 2 Clement 12:1 Let us expect, therefore, hour by hour, the kingdom of God in love and righteousness, since we know not the day of the appearing of God.

Brn Epistle of Barnabas 21:1 PE Brn Epistle of Barnabas 21:1 It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution.

Pap Fragments of Papias 5:1 The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. "But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

MPo Martyrdom of Polycarp 22:3 3 And I again, Pionius, wrote them from the previously written copy, having carefully searched into them, and the blessed Polycarp having manifested them to me through a revelation, even as I shall show in what follows. I have collected these things, when they had almost faded away through the lapse of time, that the Lord Jesus Christ may also gather me along with His elect into His heavenly kingdom, to whom, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

wstruse
02-20-2008, 08:57 PM
2Cl 2 Clement 17:4-7 4 For the Lord said," I come to gather together all the nations, tribes, and tongues." This He speaketh of the day of His appearing, when He shall come and redeem us, each one according to his works. 5 And the unbelievers "shall see His glory," and strength; and they shall think it strange when they see the sovereignty of the world in Jesus, saying, Woe unto us, Thou wast He, and we did not know and did not believe, and we did not obey the presbyters when they declared unto us concerning our salvation. And "their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh." 6 He speaketh of that day of judgment, when they shall see those among us that have been ungodly and acted deceitfully with the commandments of Jesus Christ. 7 But the righteous who have done well and endured torments and hated the enjoyments of the soul, when they shall behold those that have gone astray and denied Jesus through their words or through their works, how that they are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire, shall be giving glory to God, saying, There will be hope for him that hath served God with his whole heart.

Dio Epistle to Diognetus 7:4-6 4 By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Savior He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God. 5 As calling us He sent Him, not as vengefully pursuing us; as loving us He sent Him, not as judging us. 6 For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing?

HSE Hermas Similitude 5 5:1-5 APE HSE Hermas Similitude 5 5:1 "I said to you a little ago," he answered, "that you were cunning and obstinate in asking explanations of the parables; but since you are so persistent, I shall unfold to you the meaning of the similitudes of the field, and of all the others that follow, that you may make them known to every one. Hear now," he said, "and understand them. 2 The field is this world; and the Lord of the field is He who created, and perfected, and strengthened all things; and the son is the Holy Spirit; and the slave is the Son of God; and the vines are this people, whom He Himself planted; 3 and the stakes are the holy angels of the Lord, who keep His people together; and the weeds that were plucked out of the vineyard are the iniquities of God's servants; and the dishes which He sent Him from His table are the commandments which He gave His people through His Son; and the friends and fellow-councilors are the holy angels who were first created; and the Master's absence from home is the time that remains until His appearing." 4 I said to him, "Sir, all these are great, and marvelous, and glorious things. Could I, therefore," I continued, "understand them? No, nor could any other man, even if exceedingly wise. Moreover," I added, "explain to me what I am about to ask you." 5 "Say what you wish," he replied. "Why, sir," I asked, "is the Son of God in the parable in the form of a slave?"

Did Didache 16:1-8 APE Did Didache 16:1 Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. 2 But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. 3 For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; 4 for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. 5 Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. 6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; 7 yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. 8 Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Brn Epistle of Barnabas 4:9 9 Now, being desirous to write many things to you, not as your teacher, but as becometh one who loves you, I have taken care not to fail to write to you from what I myself possess, with a view to your purification. We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.


Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

TheForgiven
02-20-2008, 09:40 PM
What you quoted are portions of the early fathers who taught what was once believed as "Chilliasm". Barnabus of the 2nd century was a huge proponent of that teaching. His literal interpretation of the "6 days of Creation = 1000 years" failed to come to pass, for that expired around 1988. That's when some goons started handing out papers claiming that the world would end in 1988. Barnabus may have received his idea from Iranaeus, who in turn received it from Papias. In fact, Papias is the earliest documented source of Chilliasm, though it wasn't called that. There's also a non-Christian source which tells the story of how Emperor Domitian was afraid of the highly expected return of Jesus. For, as it states, Domitian was afraid of losing his rule over Jesus, the King of the Jews. So he supposedly had Christians banished as a result. But after interviewing a few women of this matter, they explained that Jesus would not return for many centuries to come, and he would set up a spiritual kingdom in the future. Domitian then calms his anger, and orders the release of all those who were banished, and also has their property restored to the owners. The sad part was the ladies were right, but their timing was wrong. The Kingdom of Christ is a spiritual Kingdom. For as He Himself says, "For God is Spirit and you must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth...." That's what the Church is SUPPOSED to be doing. And regarding Barnabus, St. Eusebius of the 3rd century basically considered the prior fathers (Barnabus, Papias, and Iranaeus) to be block-heads, for taking the words too literal. He explains their error and shows that the passages they were referring to were figurative, and not literal. St. Origen of the 2nd century also held to the figurative approach, but supposedly changed back to the literal (as some Futurists teach).

Now Clement you did not quote entirely correct. He believed that 70AD was the indicator that Christ returned in Judgment and fulfilled the words of Matthew 24. in fact, most of the early fathers did believe the gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse were all fulfilled. However, they believed that the end of the world was upon them (Some of them did) based on the out-break of persecutions against the Christians, as inflicted by each Emperor in succession. By the 3rd century, that belief came to a halt, and Chilliasm was abolished, or rather rejected and some declared it to be a heresy. In fact, Constantine, who believed as Barnabus did at first, later changed his belief and interpreted the first resurrection as those who are saved, and not a physical bodily resurrection. So an adjustment took place and some believed that Christ would return in the future and reign for a literal 1000 years. By the 4rth century, that belief was pretty much dead.

Chilliasm would be revived in the late 15th century by a Jesuit Priest, though it didn't take hold until it reached Britain around the 17th and 18th centuries. And before you know it, America would adapt to it's teaching and has been the dominating belief since that time.

I could quote some of the early fathers which proves against the Futurist idea.

Joe

Richard Amiel McGough
02-20-2008, 10:31 PM
Richard,

You may already have a thread on this but I couldn’t find it. I was curious what the early church 'fathers' had to say on the subject of the 2nd coming, end of this age and the 1000 years. Here are the quotes that I have come up with from my search of their writings. I have tried to include every relevant reference (pro or con). They are in no particular order just as I have found them. I would be interested in your opinion of the quotes. (in general) Personally I find it hard to understand how most of these men did not realized the 2nd coming had already taken place. Without further comment here they are.

Hey there wstruse!

This is an excellent study. Thanks!

But as for you initial question - who said the first century coming of the Lord in judgment on Jerusalem was His "second coming"? The Bible does not use that terminology. And who said there will not be a future "coming"? There may be, there may not be. The Bible doesn't seem very clear on that point. The point of preterism is the first century fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse. The fact is that the Bible directly associates those events with a "coming of the Lord." Many futurists have denied the plain teaching of Scripture and the obvious fulfillment of those prophecies (which are confirmed in history) solely because of their desire to interpret those "coming" passages as still future.

There is much confusion on this issue. We must strive to use language very carefully and with great precision.

As for the opinions of the "church fathers" - it is common knowledge that many believed in a millennium. But did they derive that believe from a proper interpretation of Scripture? That is the $64,000 question.

I'll comment more if I see any quotes of interest.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough
02-20-2008, 10:44 PM
What you quoted are portions of the early fathers who taught what was once believed as "Chilliasm". Barnabus of the 2nd century was a huge proponent of that teaching. His literal interpretation of the "6 days of Creation = 1000 years" failed to come to pass, for that expired around 1988.

That's an EXCELLENT point. The motivation for chilliasm was much more than Scripture alone. They had big theories about time and God's plan and typology and felt that the tidy little 6 days = 6000 years just HAD to be true. And people still monkey with the numbers trying to make it all work. That's why they went nuts in 2000, which was supposed to be the end of year 6000, and the start of the "seventh day."

And the rest of your post was very informative Joe - Thanks!

Richard

eliyahu
02-20-2008, 11:05 PM
Wasn't is pretty common for the earliest of the "church fathers'" writings to be chilialist? That would support the notion that the apostles were chilialists. However, all of the church fathers were gentiles. Barnabus was actually an antisemitic and often just silly pseudopigraphal writing anyhow. Yes, I meant that :). But the church fathers had began to progressively depart from apostolic doctrine as time went on. It began with the warning of Romans 11 being ignored. Most of the doctrinal error developed after the first century was directly resulted form a replacement theology of one sort or another. The "fathers" were aparently "stumbling" in the dark about many things, more and more.

And we need to be careful not to be arrogant ourselves. Calling anyone a "blockhead" (I know, it was in reference to someone else's views) or a "goon" for having different views or for being deceived is not to way of the Lord :pray:. We are speaking of those who Jesus died for here.

TheForgiven
02-21-2008, 02:32 PM
Wasn't is pretty common for the earliest of the "church fathers'" writings to be chilialist? That would support the notion that the apostles were chilialists. However, all of the church fathers were gentiles. Barnabus was actually an antisemitic and often just silly pseudopigraphal writing anyhow. Yes, I meant that . But the church fathers had began to progressively depart from apostolic doctrine as time went on. It began with the warning of Romans 11 being ignored. Most of the doctrinal error developed after the first century was directly resulted form a replacement theology of one sort or another. The "fathers" were aparently "stumbling" in the dark about many things, more and more.

That can't be proven. The Apostles taught that Jesus was just around the corner. Based on the time statements they provided in their personal letters, all indications were that Jesus was getting ready to fulfill His promise. The Early Church Fathers did not teach past-down information, as if it came from the Apostles, though some of them such as Iranaus tried usurping their supposed Apostolic connection with St. John in an attempt to validate his teaching, debate, or claim. Yet we know from his writing that Iraneaue missed the mark on many things, by a long shot. For one thing, Iranaeus lived nearly 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, which by that time 99% percent of them were dead. So how can he claim he saw St. John woh supposedly lived well above 100 years of age in Ephesus, and supposedly remembers all the teachings of John when he was a very young boy? And why should we believe a man who claims that St. John told Ignatius, who told Polycarp, which was passed down to him (Iraneaue) that Jesus died at age 50?

They did not teach "Replacement" theology; they taught the Church. The Church is the fulfillment of the picture, or shadow. That is not replacement, but fulfillment.


And we need to be careful not to be arrogant ourselves. Calling anyone a "blockhead" (I know, it was in reference to someone else's views) or a "goon" for having different views or for being deceived is not to way of the Lord . We are speaking of those who Jesus died for here.

Okay, so me calling a liar a goon is bad. But isn't telling a lie even worse, even though we agree that all sin is sin? Anyone who sets dates and that prediciton fails to come to pass, is either mistaken or is a liar. Either way, the God says we are to ignore the one who dreams up his own expectations; they are false prophets, and scripturally speaking, false prophets are not of God. Thus, it's not possible to consider a false prophet a "child of God".

Joe

Richard Amiel McGough
02-21-2008, 03:55 PM
Wasn't is pretty common for the earliest of the "church fathers'" writings to be chilialist? That would support the notion that the apostles were chilialists.

Hey there bro, :yo:

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that you think there is enough extra-biblical evidence to conclude that the Apostles were chiliasts. I think introduces a significant consistency problem. We know from the Apostolic Scripture that the Apostles who wrote the NT all believed there would be a "coming of the Lord" in their lifetime. So it appears that you believe they were right the extrabiblical belief of a "millennium" but wrong about the biblical belief of a first century coming. That seems backwards to me.


However, all of the church fathers were gentiles. Barnabus was actually an antisemitic and often just silly pseudopigraphal writing anyhow. Yes, I meant that :).

Excellent point. They were just people like you and me, and some of them were more like Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe. Mere temporal proximity is no test of truth. Marcion the heretic was "near" in time to Christ, but his teachings were extremely flawed.


But the church fathers had began to progressively depart from apostolic doctrine as time went on.

Maybe ... or were they progressively approaching the apostolic teachings as they slowly were led of God's Spirit to understand the inspired writings of Holy Scripture? For example, what would Peter have said if you asked him about the Trinity? It took centuries to get that revelation articulated.

The Apostles were not "right" about everything. It was their writings that God protected from error. Otherwise, they seem to have been ordinary errant men. And I doubt they understood the full implications of what they were writing, because they were being carried along by the Holy Spirit whose ways are high above any man's understanding.


It began with the warning of Romans 11 being ignored. Most of the doctrinal error developed after the first century was directly resulted form a replacement theology of one sort or another. The "fathers" were aparently "stumbling" in the dark about many things, more and more.

I would LOVE to discuss the so-called "Replacement Theology" with you bro. It is my opinion that the anti-"Replacement Theology"-theology is one of the grossest errors ever foisted upon the Church of God. There was no replacement. The nucleus of the new born New Covenant Church of Christ was the Remnant of Believing Israel. The Church is the Olive Tree. The Gentiles were grafted in.


And we need to be careful not to be arrogant ourselves. Calling anyone a "blockhead" (I know, it was in reference to someone else's views) or a "goon" for having different views or for being deceived is not to way of the Lord :pray:. We are speaking of those who Jesus died for here.
Amen! I find myself often having to restrain my tongue (or keyboard as the case may be.) Thanks for the reminder bro.

Richard

wstruse
02-21-2008, 06:11 PM
Joe & Richard,


Originally Posted by TheForgiven

What you quoted are portions of the early fathers who taught what was once believed as "Chilliasm". Barnabus of the 2nd century was a huge proponent of that teaching. His literal interpretation of the "6 days of Creation = 1000 years" failed to come to pass, for that expired around 1988.

(Ram)
That's an EXCELLENT point. The motivation for chilliasm was much more than Scripture alone. They had big theories about time and God's plan and typology and felt that the tidy little 6 days = 6000 years just HAD to be true. And people still monkey with the numbers trying to make it all work. That's why they went nuts in 2000, which was supposed to be the end of year 6000, and the start of the "seventh day."


There is another possibility here guys. If this 6 days = 6000 years typology is accurate then the '6 days' of labor would not have begun until the sin of Adam. Yashua was the 2nd Adam. He began his ministry 'about' 30 years of age. Even in Mosaic law a priest could not begin the ministry until 30. This may well indicate that the events described in the garden did not begin until the 30th year of Adam. The 6000 years of mans labor then is not yet complete. The 1000 years 'Sabbath rest' has not yet begun. According to Revelation it is during this 1000 years when Satan is bound.


Just something to think about,

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

Richard Amiel McGough
02-21-2008, 06:46 PM
There is another possibility here guys. If this 6 days = 6000 years typology is accurate then the '6 days' of labor would not have begun until the sin of Adam. Yashua was the 2nd Adam. He began his ministry 'about' 30 years of age. Even in Mosaic law a priest could not begin the ministry until 30. This may well indicate that the events described in the garden did not begin until the 30th year of Adam. The 6000 years of mans labor then is not yet complete. The 1000 years 'Sabbath rest' has not yet begun. According to Revelation it is during this 1000 years when Satan is bound.


Just something to think about,

Warm Regards,
Wstruse
Does that mean you are suggesting the "Seventh Millennium" begins around 2026 AD? (That's assuming Christ was born around 4 BC.)

If so, does that mean that you accept Bishop Usher's calculations that put creation at 4004 BC?

Richard

wstruse
02-21-2008, 07:57 PM
Richard,

I have been meaning to answer this for several days now. I did not mean to ignore your original request to share my opinion on what I believe. I just wanted to address some of the other questions we have been discussing. Unless your otherwise object I will start a separate thread to post my opinion on this subject.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse

TheForgiven
02-22-2008, 08:24 PM
There is another possibility here guys. If this 6 days = 6000 years typology is accurate then the “6 days” of labor would not have begun until the sin of Adam.

Chilliasm only lasted about 230 years or so, and even then it wasn't exactly popular. Not all the Churches accepted this teaching. This was a Gentile interpretation of the Greek Christians, and some of them just didn't have enough Biblical knowledge or understanding of the spiritual nature of God's word.

Papias actually believe that when Christ returned in the future, that the Kingdom would be very fruitful, the fields filled with lush and green. He didn't interpret God's word correctly. Unfortunately, Iranaeus was not help either, who also caused Barnabus to be led down the same path.

Though between them all (2nd century) Barnabus correctly interepreted the Old Testament rituals of the first covenant (animal sacrificing, eating or abstaining) as a spiritual truth of God. Pigs were often looked at as symbols for Rubbish Gentiles. Thus the Jews were commanded not to eat pork. Why? He was paitning a picture friends, not just giving them a command to remain healthy and lose weight. :lol: That had some obvious benefits, but that wasn't the reason. The same with bulls, goats, and so forth. Or will Christ Jesus literally separate the sheep from the goat?

Joe