Reincarnation

[Christan]

Richard EN Guard!!! We have all been here before.:) I am being 5 your keeping my 6 safe. Thank you:D

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard EN Guard!!! We have all been here before.:) I am being 5 your keeping my 6 safe. Thank you:D
Hey there Christan,

That's a little to mystic for me to understand.

Feel free to clarify if you like ...

Richard

[Christan]

Sorry Brother Richard thank you for this site. I want to step up on something that is really affecting me. This whole site has really helped my growth .I feel safe being able to discuss things here without being hurt. As I have told you privately I have alot of enemies. Since I still live in my home town they move closer and closer as time passes.
One of the effects of being surrounded by negativity to the extreme levels that I am is that my Native American blood starts boiling. I have had many struggles concerning my faith and just what was done to my ancestors. Its seems to be being replayed . I have construction gowing on both sides of me as I type. It really isnt very pleasant.
In the process I have come to believe that I have been here before more than once . I feel very old. I dont see this as an obstacle to my faith . Do you have anything to share on reincarnation theory ?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sorry Brother Richard thank you for this site. I want to step up on something that is really affecting me. This whole site has really helped my growth .I feel safe being able to discuss things here without being hurt. As I have told you privately I have alot of enemies. Since I still live in my home town they move closer and closer as time passes.

Hey there bro .. I'm really glad you feel safe to open up and share here. I pray we all keep it that way.


One of the effects of being surrounded by negativity to the extreme levels that I am is that my Native American blood starts boiling. I have had many struggles concerning my faith and just what was done to my ancestors. Its seems to be being replayed . I have construction gowing on both sides of me as I type. It really isnt very pleasant.

What is it like where you live? Was it a remote place that is being crowded now by population growth? I live on four acres with my family - it gives us plenty of space. But there are many new houses going in all around the valley.


In the process I have come to believe that I have been here before more than once . I feel very old. I dont see this as an obstacle to my faith . Do you have anything to share on reincarnation theory ?

We have touched on that topic a bit in one or two threads. I know that kabalistic Jews believe in reincarnation, but it introduces a number of problems from a Christian point of view. First, there is nothing in the Bible that teaches it, and if it were the nature of reality it seems odd that God would leave us in such ignorance. And it does seem to directly contradict at least one verse of Scripture:
KJV Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But then there is an odd verse that seems to suggest an existence before birth, though there is nothing in it that necessarily implies an incarnational existence:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
How could a man sin before he was born? To some, that suggests a pre-existence.

The biggest problems with the idea of reincarnation is that it doesn't seem to fit with the fundamental Christian doctrine of resurrection. The Christian Gospel says that after we die, our hope is that we will be resurrected. That is very different than being born again and again and again and again ... in that system, there is no hope of every being free from sin and death.

Other than your feeling of being "very old" is there any reason you are inclined to believe in reincarnation?

Richard

[Brother Les]

Christan

Richard EN Guard!!! We have all been here before. I am being 5 your keeping my 6 safe. Thank you



5 by 5 = 'everything OK'

my '6' = 'back side'




'Me thinks'

Brother Les

[Christan]

5 by 5 = 'everything OK'

my '6' = 'back side'




'Me thinks'

Brother Les I am trying to keep it simple:)

[Christan]

[Hey there bro .. I'm really glad you feel safe to open up and share here. I pray we all keep it that way.

What is it like where you live? Was it a remote place that is being crowded now by population growth? I live on four acres with my family - it gives us plenty of space. But there are many new houses going in all around the valley.
It is absolutely compact . :( I live and work on a good sized lot but that is the problem. It is a hot commodity and my mother is getting up there in years. Our politics do not reflect the neighborhoods or towns for that matter. Although my dad was a research scientist he was into rental property. He died suddenly and some of the left here took credit for it. I have refused to leave as of yet. It is very sad what has become of this place. I really can relate to the plite of the NA back in the day. They would like to kill me and take the goods. No stretch of the imagination. I amnot crying wolf . I would really love to get out but I have loved ones to care for. I have contacted some people from my tribe. I feel that they may be able to at least help me remain calm. Yeah I know all about trusting in the Lord. But when one is at odds with ones neighbors it is unnerving. Needless to say there arent many Bibles on the street. I can feel the hate it isnt pleasant.
We have touched on that topic a bit in one or two threads. I know that kabalistic Jews believe in reincarnation, but it introduces a number of problems from a Christian point of view. First, there is nothing in the Bible that teaches it, and if it were the nature of reality it seems odd that God would leave us in such ignorance. And it does seem to directly contradict at least one verse of Scripture:
KJV Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:




But then there is an odd verse that seems to suggest an existence before birth, though there is nothing in it that necessarily implies an incarnational existence:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
How could a man sin before he was born? To some, that suggests a pre-existence.

The biggest problems with the idea of reincarnation is that it doesn't seem to fit with the fundamental Christian doctrine of resurrection. The Christian Gospel says that after we die, our hope is that we will be resurrected. That is very different than being born again and again and again and again ... in that system, there is no hope of every being free from sin and death. """"


I think the key words are "Seem to fit with fundamental Christian Doctrine." If I had to chose one word that has kept me digging into the Word it is Paradox . I try to let the Word be what it is. Then I see things in it like the bit about Noah that I had passed over. I see all kinds of depth in Hebrew and it really can be awe inspiring.





Other than your feeling of being "very old" is there any reason you are inclined to believe in reincarnation? Yes The thing that has kept me alive around here are Babies. I have the gift of knowing when people are going to have them as well. I witness the interaction between couples and bless them in my heart. :D I am not saying I have all the answers but I am seeing something going on that is much deeper than words can convey . I also have premonitions when people are dying at times. It seems to be like Jacobs ladder. Incedently the babies that surround me are very well taken care of. :thumb: I have always considered myself to be a shepherd like David. I spend time with the flocks in a kind of veiled way . It feels really good to be connected. Reincarnation certainly makes things more complicated. But I really get the feeling we have all been here before. And I dont go talking about this to people who would stumble by the query. I mean no harm. On the other hand I know alot of folks sure mean me harm and to be honest there arent many hugs and kisses coming my way. I hope you can recieve this statement for what it is. Being physically isolated can at times be very trying. I am being Patient.:)
One more thing for what it is worth. Last weekend I started cutting some angles that I derived from studying the Pyramid. I cut the skin off my skin of my left index on the table saw. Scared me for sure. I took stock in the close call andthe blood all over. I realized I hade come across some sharp angles. I then had the thought of taking the the great pyramid and inverting it on the diagonals. Thus insead of the two base angles being Appx 52 degrees and an apex of appx 76 it would turn into an inverted one with 104 degrees for an apex and 38 degrees for sides. . The vision became a sword being unsheathed. Yikes Peace. Christan

[MuadDib987]

I cut the skin off my skin of my left index on the table saw. Scared me for sure. I took stock in the close call andthe blood all over. I realized I hade come across some sharp angles.

Yowtch! Hope it's not a serious wound.

Take care

[Christan]

Yowtch! Hope it's not a serious wound.

Take care It was wierd. I let it happen.Usually I can feel when a piece of wood is going to fly out of the mitre saw etc. I annointed a new blade with oil and then proceeded to slice the side of the finger off a few minutes later.. No muscle just the skin and the side of the nail. I am keeping it clean with neosporin. I let it dry out and it got a little infected. So I put on a bandaid again with the stuff. I shouldbe able to play guitar in a day or two. Thanks for the concern. Peace Christan PS someone left me a copy of Heretics on the front steps of my south Berkeley home 20 years back.. Lots of info in there. . No one respects the flame quite like the fool that is badly burned.

[alec cotton]

I don't know about reincarnation but you might try this for sighs. Telepathy is a certainty. I have had personal experience but only briefly. I have observed many instances in animals. We sometimes get impressions of a previous life ,but that doesn't mean that we have lived before. Here are two explanations which might fit the bill. Demons can enter the human heart and they are not confined to time. They could quite easily use their knowledge to mislead men. We inherit hair colour ,bone structure and sometimes characterisics from our parents so why not memories?. That would help to explain how a bird builds a nest . They call it instinct. The brain is not the mind. The mind is not the brain . The brain is simply the central processing unit. The mind is imponderable. Give your brain a break. Rest by his Spirit ,bathe in his love. No man is an island . My heart is connected to yous by a tenuous, inexplicable ,spiritual thread.
alec

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I don't know about reincarnation but you might try this for sighs. Telepathy is a certainty. I have had personal experience but only briefly. I have observed many instances in animals. We sometimes get impressions of a previous life ,but that doesn't mean that we have lived before. Here are two explanations which might fit the bill. Demons can enter the human heart and they are not confined to time. They could quite easily use their knowledge to mislead men. We inherit hair colour ,bone structure and sometimes characterisics from our parents so why not memories?. That would help to explain how a bird builds a nest . They call it instinct. The brain is not the mind. The mind is not the brain . The brain is simply the central processing unit. The mind is imponderable. Give your brain a break. Rest by his Spirit ,bathe in his love. No man is an island . My heart is connected to yous by a tenuous, inexplicable ,spiritual thread.
alec
Hi Alec,

I agree that telepathy is a reality. We are spiritual beings, and our minds extend well beyond the limits of our bodies, and I too have experienced shared thoughts with others - usually close friends.

As for reincarnation - I think that we could "tune in" to the experiences of others who have lived in the past and those experiences might seem like "memories" of a past life.

As for the distinction between the brain and the mind - right on! :thumb:

I tend to think of the brain like the "interface" or "receiver" for the Mind, much like a TV that receives the signal.

Richard

[Bob May]

Hi guys,
I know this is an old post but the subject matter caught my eye.


Hey there bro .. I'm really glad you feel safe to open up and share here. I pray we all keep it that way.

What is it like where you live? Was it a remote place that is being crowded now by population growth? I live on four acres with my family - it gives us plenty of space. But there are many new houses going in all around the valley.


We have touched on that topic a bit in one or two threads. I know that kabalistic Jews believe in reincarnation, but it introduces a number of problems from a Christian point of view. First, there is nothing in the Bible that teaches it, and if it were the nature of reality it seems odd that God would leave us in such ignorance. And it does seem to directly contradict at least one verse of Scripture:
KJV Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But then there is an odd verse that seems to suggest an existence before birth, though there is nothing in it that necessarily implies an incarnational existence:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
How could a man sin before he was born? To some, that suggests a pre-existence.

The biggest problems with the idea of reincarnation is that it doesn't seem to fit with the fundamental Christian doctrine of resurrection. The Christian Gospel says that after we die, our hope is that we will be resurrected. That is very different than being born again and again and again and again ... in that system, there is no hope of every being free from sin and death.

Other than your feeling of being "very old" is there any reason you are inclined to believe in reincarnation?

Richard

There is another instance in scripture that looks a lot like reincarnation.

Mt 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

Mt 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

These verses seem to indicate pretty strongly that John the Baptist lived before as Elias. (Elijah)

Mt 16:14 "And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, ELIAS; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."

This shows that at least some Jews believed in reincarnation.
I have been told that Elias/John the Baptist are a "special case". That may be so.
I don't think it is very important one way or another except that people might get the idea that there is all of the time in the world and as many lifetimes as they need to understand the important things and change their lives. That, I think is a mistake.

As far as Karma goes, I don't really see a discrepency between that and the Bible. The whole idea of Karma is cause and effect. The goal is to escape the "wheel of Karma."
I see that as a direct analogy to the Law vs. Grace. The two Covenants. When we get an awareness of what Grace really is, we do escape that "cause and effect" mentality.

Bob

[gregoryfl]

I tend to think of the brain like the "interface" or "receiver" for the Mind, much like a TV that receives the signal.
RichardI like that illustration Richard. Thanks for sharing it.:thumb:



As far as Karma goes, I don't really see a discrepency between that and the Bible. The whole idea of Karma is cause and effect. The goal is to escape the "wheel of Karma."
I see that as a direct analogy to the Law vs. Grace. The two Covenants. When we get an awareness of what Grace really is, we do escape that "cause and effect" mentality.
BobBob, that makes sense. Good point.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi guys,
There is another instance in scripture that looks a lot like reincarnation.

Mt 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

Mt 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

These verses seem to indicate pretty strongly that John the Baptist lived before as Elias. (Elijah)

Mt 16:14 "And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, ELIAS; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."

This shows that at least some Jews believed in reincarnation.
I have been told that Elias/John the Baptist are a "special case". That may be so.
I don't think it is very important one way or another except that people might get the idea that there is all of the time in the world and as many lifetimes as they need to understand the important things and change their lives. That, I think is a mistake.

As far as Karma goes, I don't really see a discrepency between that and the Bible. The whole idea of Karma is cause and effect. The goal is to escape the "wheel of Karma."
I see that as a direct analogy to the Law vs. Grace. The two Covenants. When we get an awareness of what Grace really is, we do escape that "cause and effect" mentality.

Bob
Hey there Bob,

I don't know when the Jewish doctrine of reincarnation began, but I do know that the Zohar speaks about it a lot. Here is a quote that I found in and article called Reincarnation and the Jewish Tradition (http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Reincarnation_and_Jewish_Tradition.asp) on Aish.com:

All souls are subject to reincarnation; and people do not know the ways of the Holy One, blessed be He! They do not know that they are brought before the tribunal both before they enter into this world and after they leave it; they are ignorant of the many reincarnations and secret works which they have to undergo, and of the number of naked souls, and how many naked spirits roam about in the other world without being able to enter within the veil of the King's Palace. Men do not know how the souls revolve like a stone that is thrown from a sling. But the time is at hand when these mysteries will be disclosed. (Zohar II 99b)But as for John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the prophecy about Elijah, I do not think that the biblical evidence necessarily means that any of them meant "reincarnation" when they said asked if he was Elijah. It seems more likely that they would have thought that he really was Elijah come back down from heaven. This makes sense to me because they knew that he had never died, so how could he be reincarnated?

As for karma - in as much as it is like a great wheel the executes pure justice (eye for an eye) I can see it like the Law. But the doctrine as it is taught in Hinduism doesn't seem to cohere well with the idea of Christ's atonement which frees us from the law of karma without us suffering the consequences of our actions. I'm not sure how that could be put together. Perhaps we need to develop a clear understanding of what the atonement really means. My brother in law (Professor of the Philosophy of Science at Messiah College) has studied this a lot and has written a paper. Here is a snippet from the introduction that shows how the popular theories of atonement (which are often taugth as doctrine) are quite contrary to many passages of Scripture:






Suppose a theologian told the following parable:
There was a man who had two sons. The younger said to his father, "Father, give me my share of the estate." So the father divided his property between them. Not long after that, the younger son went off to a distant country, squandered all he had in wild living, and ended up feeding pigs in order to survive. Eventually he returned to his father, saying, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me one of your hired servants." But his father responded: "I cannot simply forgive you for what you have done, not even so much as to make you one of my hired men. You have insulted my honor by your wild living. Simply to forgive you would be to trivialize sin; it would be against the moral order of the entire universe. For 'nothing is less tolerable in the order of things than for a son to take away the honor due to his father and not make recompense for what he takes away. ' Such is the severity of my justice that reconciliation will not be made unless the penalty is utterly paid. My wrath--my avenging justice--must be placated.'"

"But father, please..." the son began to plead.

"No," the father said, "either you must be punished or you must pay back, through hard labor for as long as you shall live, the honor you stole from me."

Then the elder brother spoke up. "Father, I will pay the debt that he owes and endure your just punishment for him. Let me work extra in the field on his behalf and thereby placate your wrath." And it came to pass that the elder brother took on the garb of a servant and labored hard year after year, often long into the night, on behalf of his younger brother. And finally, when the elder brother died of exhaustion, the father's wrath was placated against his younger son and they lived happily for the remainder of their days.


The above parable will strike many of you as a perverted version of Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son. And, I believe, it should. Yet it essentially embodies the most widely accepted story of the Atonement that has been told in Western Christianity since the time of Anselm in the eleventh century, and as George Foley notes (232), has been the basis ever since the Protestant Reformation for what has been called Evangelical Theology. As we shall see, this story is actually a mixture of two theories of the Atonement--Anselm's Debt or Satisfaction theory, and the Penal theory of the Reformers--theories which essentially say that Christ's death satisfied the debt demanded by the moral order, or paid the penalty demanded by divine justice, for our sins. Many Christians have read and heard these ideas countless times in books and sermons, and such teachings probably have seemed perfectly acceptable, sensible, and biblical. We might ask, however: if these theories (which are closely related) are really quite unbiblical when their claims are transposed into the concrete situation of Jesus' parable, why have they been accepted by so many Christians? And are they really the only alternatives available?


Richard

[Bob May]

Hi Richard,


"But the doctrine as it is taught in Hinduism doesn't seem to cohere well with the idea of Christ's atonement which frees us from the law of karma without us suffering the consequences of our actions. I'm not sure how that could be put together."

I don't know enough about it to back up what I've said with that doctrine. I'm only saying that there is an "escape" of the wheel of birth and death. I am also not saying that it will "work" for them. It is just interesting to me that there is an "out" theoretically.



"Many Christians have read and heard these ideas countless times in books and sermons, and such teachings probably have seemed perfectly acceptable, sensible, and biblical. We might ask, however: if these theories (which are closely related) are really quite unbiblical when their claims are transposed into the concrete situation of Jesus' parable, why have they been accepted by so many Christians? And are they really the only alternatives available?"

I stopped attending churches because none that I attended had any idea of or taught what the Atonement was without then putting stipulations on the "free gift" thereby nullifying Grace and making people feel condemned because they could not keep the whole Law.

It is the modern day Galatian's story all over again.

In my Bible that parable states that the Father came and fell on his son's neck and kissed him. This was while the son was still a long way off.
We turn toward God and he comes to meet us.
Then we who were dead are alive again.
The rest is just learning and believing what has happened to us. And not letting so called "Christians" talk us out of it.

As Jesus suffered outside the camp let us therefore follow him outside the camp. If that is what it takes to keep our mind right with the New Covenant, so be it.
To mix the Law and Grace is to be lukewarm. To be likewarm is to be spewn out of God's mouth.

"has been the basis ever since the Protestant Reformation for what has been called Evangelical Theology. As we shall see, this story is actually a mixture of two theories of the Atonement--Anselm's Debt or Satisfaction theory, and the Penal theory of the Reformers--theories which essentially say that Christ's death satisfied the debt demanded by the moral order, or paid the penalty demanded by divine justice, for our sins. Many Christians have read and heard these ideas countless times in books and sermons, and such teachings probably have seemed perfectly acceptable, sensible, and biblical."

They are Biblical but not rightly dividing the word of Truth. They are sensible also when judging by the Law or the carnal mind which are both cause and effect based.
The entire problem is that those who teach are teaching what they never knew. If they don't have an awareness of Grace they are teaching Old Testament Law. They can call it what they wish but that doesn't change the facts.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,
I stopped attending churches because none that I attended had any idea of or taught what the Atonement was without then putting stipulations on the "free gift" thereby nullifying Grace and making people feel condemned because they could not keep the whole Law.

It is the modern day Galatian's story all over again.

Hey Bob,

That was very well stated. It is exactly what I experienced too. It's like the "Good News" is just a little "too good" if it means that we are really truly free.

But then on the other side of the coin, we have the problem of "antinomianism" which is a perversion of our freedom in Christ. But Paul dealt with that not by returning us to the Law or putting conditions on the freedom Christ has given us, but rather by pointing us to yet the deeper truth that we would be fools to abandon the freedom of righteousness and to return to the bondage of sin (Rom 6).



In my Bible that parable states that the Father came and fell on his son's neck and kissed him. This was while the son was still a long way off.
We turn toward God and he comes to meet us.
Then we who were dead are alive again.
The rest is just learning and believing what has happened to us. And not letting so called "Christians" talk us out of it.

Amen indeed! Most "Christians" are in bondage to a very strange and malformed view of the Gospel that has become the "orthodox" teaching of "evangelicalism." They are taught a trivialized theory of atonement as if it were the one and only "biblical doctrine" when in fact is was invented in the 10th century! (I'm talking about the penal theory of atonement.) I find that theory to be a gross misrepresentation of the Gospel. A much better view is the understanding is along the lines of the "Incarnational Theory of Atonement" that is dominant in the Eastern Church. In this therory, we see that God reconciled the world IN Christ when Christ became flesh and dealt with sin in the flesh by taking it to its ultimate conclusion in DEATH, but being God overcame death, and so we IN CHRIST share in His victory. A powerful verse that opens many doors to a deeper understanding of "what it's all about" is found in 2 Peter:

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Humm ... what are the implications of that?



They are Biblical but not rightly dividing the word of Truth. They are sensible also when judging by the Law or the carnal mind which are both cause and effect based.
The entire problem is that those who teach are teaching what they never knew. If they don't have an awareness of Grace they are teaching Old Testament Law. They can call it what they wish but that doesn't change the facts.
Wow - that is exactly how I have felt for many years - they are "teaching what they never knew! And that's the key - they preach what they "think" Scripture is saying, when in fact they have not "known" it in the "biblical sense" if you know what I mean.

Well stated. :thumb:

Richard

[Brother Les]

Mt 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

Mt 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

These verses seem to indicate pretty strongly that John the Baptist lived before as Elias. (Elijah)

Mt 16:14 "And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, ELIAS; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."

This shows that at least some Jews believed in reincarnation.
I have been told that Elias/John the Baptist are a "special case". That may be so.
I don't think it is very important one way or another except that people might get the idea that there is all of the time in the world and as many lifetimes as they need to understand the important things and change their lives. That, I think is a mistake.

As far as Karma goes, I don't really see a discrepency between that and the Bible. The whole idea of Karma is cause and effect. The goal is to escape the "wheel of Karma."
I see that as a direct analogy to the Law vs. Grace. The two Covenants. When we get an awareness of what Grace really is, we do escape that "cause and effect" mentality.

Bob



Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


The disclaimer is the words 'if ye will receive it'...... with that thinkiing, the ones that did not 'receive it' never thought of John 'as' Elias...

John was fulfilling the prophecy of Elias. 'Israelites' believed that Elias would come and 'pave' the way for the Messiah. Elias was the Shadow proclaiming what was to come. John was the Real, proclaiming the fulfillment.


posted by Bob
I stopped attending churches because none that I attended had any idea of or taught what the Atonement was without then putting stipulations on the "free gift" thereby nullifying Grace and making people feel condemned because they could not keep the whole Law.


Paul said that the Gentiles were never under the yoke of the fathers and He (Paul) would not let them become followers of The Law, as the Judaizers wanted Paul to make them do....

'Gentile' are not under 'The Law'.... they/we are under a greater 'law'...
The Ten Commandantment do not pertain to the New Covenant Age..... Only the The Two Commandments of Jesus... Love God...Love your Neighbor.


Brother Les

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.


Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


The disclaimer is the words 'if ye will receive it'...... with that thinkiing, the ones that did not 'receive it' never thought of John 'as' Elias...

John was fulfilling the prophecy of Elias. 'Israelites' believed that Elias would come and 'pave' the way for the Messiah. Elias was the Shadow proclaiming what was to come. John was the Real, proclaiming the fulfillment.

That's how I see it too. John fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah. He was not Elijah come down from heaven whence he had ascended, and he was not a "reincarnation" of Elijah.



Paul said that the Gentiles were never under the yoke of the fathers and He (Paul) would not let them become followers of The Law, as the Judaizers wanted Paul to make them do....

'Gentile' are not under 'The Law'.... they/we are under a greater 'law'...
The Ten Commandantment do not pertain to the New Covenant Age..... Only the The Two Commandments of Jesus... Love God...Love your Neighbor.

Brother Les
Yep - the two commandments of Christ sum up all the Law and the Prophets -- and go infinitely far beyond them too.

Richard

[Bob May]

That's how I see it too. John fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah. He was not Elijah come down from heaven whence he had ascended, and he was not a "reincarnation" of Elijah.


Yep - the two commandments of Christ sum up all the Law and the Prophets -- and go infinitely far beyond them too.

Richard

Hi guys,

Like I said before. Reincarnation pro or con doesn't mean that much to me. I don't think it matters to our spiritual life or it would have gotten more "press" in the Bible.

But as far as the Law goes Paul said;

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their THOUGHTS the mean while ACCUSING or else EXCUSING one another;)

Whether you have as your goal 613 laws contained in the Mosaic Law or the condensation to 10 commandments or further refinement to only 2 one thing is certain.
YOU cannot keep them by your own power and you cannot erase the times you didn't keep them by keeping them now.

God's standard is PERFECTION.
"Nothing that defiles shall enter heaven."
" Break one law and you are guilty of all." That is part of the Law.
Jesus went even further by saying, "be perfect AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT. No one ever was able to keep that commandment.

To love God with ALL of our heart, soul and mind is also impossible for us.

The reason for the Law or any standard of perfection is to bring us to the end of ourselves. To bring all men guilty before God.

There are only two kinds of righteousness.
Imputed righteousness. (right standing with God or Perfection in God's eyes)
Or Self righteousness.

The Law, whatever law, brings us to that turning point, that realisation. At that point, we admit that we are powerless or we pretend that we are not.

So whether there are 613, 10 or 2 we cannot do it of our own power.

Bob

[gregoryfl]

And I would further add that not only is it impossible to keep, but also that it was never God's ultimate intention. For any law, outside of man, only brings condemnation and death.

The law is, for the believer, on the inside. As the prophet wrote: "I will write my laws on their hearts..." In other words, it is part of us now and is fulfilled perfectly, not by any effort from us, but by means of Jesus living his life out in us.