The first book of Moses - Genesis

[derekkye]

This brings me to what I believe is the first prophecy of Moses - Genesis 6:3

Genesis 6:3 - And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

How long did Moses live?

Deuteronomy 34:7 - And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Supporting Scripture

Isaiah 63:11 - Then He remembered the days of old, Moses, and His people, saying, Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? where is He that put His holy spirit within Him?

Conclusion: the spirit of Moses is/was God's Holy Spirit.?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This brings me to what I believe is the first prophecy of Moses - Genesis 6:3

Genesis 6:3 - And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

How long did Moses live?

Deuteronomy 34:7 - And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Supporting Scripture

Isaiah 63:11 - Then He remembered the days of old, Moses, and His people, saying, Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? where is He that put His holy spirit within Him?

Conclusion: the spirit of Moses is/was God's Holy Spirit.?

Hi derekkye,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are suggesting the Genesis 6:3 was a prophecy specifically about Moses. Is that correct? If so, I can't say that I agree because the prophecy was speaking about "man" in general, not Moses in particular. And we don't even know if it was talking about the maximum lifespan of a human. It could have been talking about the number of years before the flood. But even if it were speaking about the maximum lifespan of a human, all we know is that Moses lived to that age ... there is still nothing that makes me think Gen 6:3 was a prophecy of Moses.

And as for the "spirit of Moses" being the "Holy Spirit" -- that sounds backwards to me. God put His Spirit in Moses - but that certainly doesn't mean that the "spirit of Moses" should be identified with the "Holy Spirit of God." God gives the Holy Spirit to all His children, but that does not mean that we should identify the "spirit of Paul" or the "spirit of John" or the "spirit of Joe Christian" with the Holy Spirit of God, does it?

I hope you don't get discouraged by my response. I'm just doing my best to answer as clearly and honestly as possible.

You said this was the "first prophecy of Moses." What is the second?

Richard

[shawn]

Indeed, Moses had the Holy Spirit....he wished that all of the Lord's people would have the Spirit...just as he did:

(Num 11:29 KJV) And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!


I also think (after years of thinking about it) that the 120 years was a prophecy of Moses....but was also, more importantly, signified the giving of the Law (Torah) to the chosen people. Before the Law, sin was powerless and there were many who had the Spirit of God. The "Sons of God" were men with the Spirit in my opinion (and not fallen angels.) Before the giving of the Law, Men of the Spirit were capable of "ruling over" sin:

(Gen 4:7 KJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

What Adam and Eve introduced into the world was sin (and eventually death:)

(Rom 5:12 KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Which brought the judgment of God of "death." This "death" is the separation of God's Spirit from mankind...not the literal death:

(Gen 2:17 KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The "death" came upon mankind at the giving of the Law.....before the Law, sin was powerless to introduce "death".....because it did not have strength to produce it. But after the giving of the Law, sin had the power to "kill:"

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Sin was "dead" without the Law:

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

For mankind was "alive" with the breath of life....the Spirit of God..until the Law came and sin had power to separate mankind from the indwelling of the Spirit....."death."

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

For no man could keep the Law fully until Jesus whose sacrifice produced "life" for mankind....he is the Tree of Life....by which we are reconciled back to God....the indwelling of His Spirit.

(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Law of sin and death is the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

(Deu 30:15 KJV) See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Jesus chose life and good for us (he was without sin) and set us free from "death and evil."

The ark of Noah was foreshadowing the giving of the Law.....what preserved life to those who were in the ark also produced death to those without....the Torah brings forth water.

[shawn]

oops....don't know where that smiley face came from:confused2:....having a :) with the word "death" seems kind of wrong.:)


Before the Law was given, men had the Holy Spirit and were able to rule over sin as mentioned before....the very first mention of sin in the bible:

(Gen 4:7 KJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


This is also the same message given to us today....to those who are to be led by the Spirit:

Romans 6: 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

oops....don't know where that smiley face came from:confused2:....having a :) with the word "death" seems kind of wrong.:)

Hi Shawn,

Those smilies jump out suprizingly when folks type the smilie shortcut code without realizeing it. For example, it looks like you typed "(and eventually death:)" - the colin+parenthesis at the end is interpreted as :) by the forum software.


Before the Law was given, men had the Holy Spirit and were able to rule over sin as mentioned before....the very first mention of sin in the bible:

(Gen 4:7 KJV) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This is also the same message given to us today....to those who are to be led by the Spirit:

Romans 6: 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Well that is a very interesting link .... but I'm not sure I would explain it the way you suggest, since there is nothing in Gen 4:7 that suggests it was the Holy Spirit that gave Cain the ability to "rule over" his sin. Indeed, it does not seem that he actually was "ruling over" it at all, as evidenced by the fact that he murdered his brother.

But it is an interesting connection. Is this something you noticed yourself, or did you read it somewhere?

Richard

[shawn]

Thanks Richard.....that is probably what I did concerning the smiley...I accidentally typed in the code for it.

I really don't read much extra material other than the bible....so anything I put down I have noticed myself. I do check things I believe or wonder about against other viewpoints....to see if any agree or not.

The reason I think that Cain could have ruled over sin through the Holy Spirit....God said he was capable....he was able to choose to "do well" or "not to do well." When Cain murdered his brother, he obviously chose the latter. When we who have the Spirit....having "life"....experiencing God's presence....choose to live after the flesh rather than being led by the Spirit...it leads to "death"....being separated from God's presence.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Cain was very angry at Abel....full of wrath:

(Gen 4:5 KJV) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Again....spoken to those who have the Spirit:

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Cain's wrath brought forth sin...the killing of his brother....and that sin led to "death"....the separation from God's presence:

Genesis 4: 13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.


He went to dwell in the land of "Nod".....meaning "wandering"... from the presence of God...separated from the Spirit of God. Cain was the original "man of sin"....because he chose not to rule over sin...he lived after the flesh. "Wandering" like "wandering stars:"

(Jude 1:13 KJV) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Cain was "hid" from the perception of others.....the "man of sin" was hid....and he will be revealed by Jesus for all to see:

(2 Th 2:3 KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cain....the original son of "perdition"...."ruin or loss"...because he lost the presence of God in his life.

(Psa 51:11 KJV) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks Richard.....that is probably what I did concerning the smiley...I accidentally typed in the code for it.

I really don't read much extra material other than the bible....so anything I put down I have noticed myself. I do check things I believe or wonder about against other viewpoints....to see if any agree or not.

The reason I think that Cain could have ruled over sin through the Holy Spirit....God said he was capable....he was able to choose to "do well" or "not to do well." When Cain murdered his brother, he obviously chose the latter. When we who have the Spirit....having "life"....experiencing God's presence....choose to live after the flesh rather than being led by the Spirit...it leads to "death"....being separated from God's presence.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Cain was very angry at Abel....full of wrath:

(Gen 4:5 KJV) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Again....spoken to those who have the Spirit:

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Cain's wrath brought forth sin...the killing of his brother....and that sin led to "death"....the separation from God's presence:

Genesis 4: 13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.


He went to dwell in the land of "Nod".....meaning "wandering"... from the presence of God...separated from the Spirit of God. Cain was the original "man of sin"....because he chose not to rule over sin...he lived after the flesh. "Wandering" like "wandering stars:"

(Jude 1:13 KJV) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Cain was "hid" from the perception of others.....the "man of sin" was hid....and he will be revealed by Jesus for all to see:

(2 Th 2:3 KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cain....the original son of "perdition"...."ruin or loss"...because he lost the presence of God in his life.

(Psa 51:11 KJV) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Thanks Shawn,

Those associations and linked thoughts make sense to me. Indeed, Cain is mentioned just two verses earlier in your quote from Jude

Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
God bless!

Richard

[joel]

Sin was "dead" without the Law:



Sin is not "imputed".......not reckoned against a person.......where there is no law.

Romans 5: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I cannot find that "Sin was dead without the law"........sin was fully alive and operative from the moment sin entered the cosmos............it was not "reckoned" in the absence of the law.

Does that make sense?

What you said, and Romans 5:1 do not jibe, or, are you thinking of a different verse?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sin is not "imputed".......not reckoned against a person.......where there is no law.

Romans 5: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I cannot find that "Sin was dead without the law"........sin was fully alive and operative from the moment sin entered the cosmos............it was not "reckoned" in the absence of the law.

Does that make sense?

What you said, and Romans 5:1 do not jibe, or, are you thinking of a different verse?

Joel
Hi Joel,


The statement Shawn quoted is from Romans 7:8 which says:
Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
The Greek literally states that sin (hamartia) was dead (nekros) with the law (nomos).

How do you understand this in light or Romans 5?

Richard

[joel]

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

For without the law......sin is not imputed.
For without the law......sin is dead.

Are these not two different statements, desciribing two different things?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

For without the law......sin is not imputed.
For without the law......sin is dead.

Are these not two different statements, desciribing two different things?

Joel
Are they two different things, or different aspects of the same thing?

Richard

[joel]

Are they two different things, or different aspects of the same thing?

Richard

1.)...in the first case, sin is not taken into account.......put to one's account, where there is no law.

2.)...in the second case, when the commandment comes.....it produces all manner of its varied wrong behavior, etc. .....otherwise, without the law, sin is dead.

yes.....I do believe that these are two different aspects of sin.......in the first case, sin is not taken into account.......this is one thing.

In the second case, sin is dormant until the law comes.

Sin.....and law......are contrasted.

No law......sin is not reckoned.......it exists, it is there......it is not "dead"....it is not taken into account.

When law comes......sin, which was lying dormant.......is aroused.......it was not dead.......I was dead, apart from sin once........there is a difference here.
Is there not???

The distinction is important.....just as is the distinction concerning other spriitual matters. Without the proper distinction, apples become oranges.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When law comes......sin, which was lying dormant.......is aroused.......it was not dead.......I was dead, apart from sin once........there is a difference here.
Is there not???

Focussing on that one point .... why do you say that sin was not "dead" when in fact the Bible says "sin was dead"? Are you interpreting the word "dead" to mean "dormant"?

Richard

[shawn]

Hi Joel,

What I tried to say, rather badly, was that sin was powerless...."dead"....to bring forth "death" to mankind (Adam) until the giving of the law by Moses....that is my theory anyway. Sin was most definitely in the world....for Adam had brought it into the world...onto all of mankind. It
existed before the Law.

"Death" came upon mankind at the giving of the Law which was the judgment carried out that Adam (mankind) should "die."

(Gen 2:17 KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The "day" had not ended until the giving of the Law.....which gave sin power to kill mankind. For when the commandment came, sin "revived".....it came back to life....he had power to kill. It only had a brief life when the one commandment (that they should not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) was given and transgressed .Sin was imputed....to Adam. Sin came into the world via Adam and Eve:

(1 Cor 15:22 KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But it could do no more....it could not bring forth "death" until the Law. "Death", in my opinion, is the separation from the Spirit of God. There were "Sons of God" before the flood....indicating men who had not experienced this kind of death. God said His Spirit would not strive with man....for the time for him to be just "flesh" was coming...the time without the Spirit:

(Gen 6:3 KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

For mankind was left in the flesh.....the motions of sin...after the giving of the Law :

(Rom 7:5 KJV) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The giving of the Law was the death sentence...mankind was "dead" under the Law....because it couldn't be kept fully....only Jesus could keep it perfectly...the last Adam....without sin.

(Rom 7:6 KJV) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

"I was alive without the Law once"......a group of mankind was "alive" with the Spirit before the Law.....but when the Law came mankind "died."


Romans 7: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


That is my theory anyway.

[joel]

Shawn,

Let me first say that I appreciate your entry into the discussions. It is helpful to us all when more enter in, and provide the benefit of a new perspective.

You will find, as you continue along, that this is not a hostile place, but a place of earnest seeking.

We have discussed these matters before, but have not arrived at a place of agreement as what is said in the scriptures..........but, we leave matters for awhile, to return again.

Paul's letter to the Romans is where, it seems to me, that we are focusing our discussion. When, in his letter, he arrives at chapter 5, it is helpful when we refer back to the Genesis account to understand what transpired.

Paul says, in Romans 5:12;
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned;

The first part of the sentence is not difficult for us........the one man is Adam. Sin entered into the "world" (kosmos......ordered structure of the creation consisting of all created material, and beings, and all created things).
And when sin entered, death entered as well, and entered through sin.

It is the second half of the sentence that keeps coming back for discussion.

"...and so death passed upon all men,........." If we take that just as it is......all people, without exception die....." Death passed upon all men when Adam did what he did. We don't have to sin to have death pass to us. We die regardless. This is the "universal" aspect of Adam's "sin".....it affected everyone. It is as if all of us where there with him.

Actually, that is true. We were not standing there as a massive group, but, we were there just the same.........in Adam. What affected him affects us all because of him.

Here's where we have not been in agreement in the past.........I see it in one way......others may see it differently. I see it that Adam began to die immediately upon eating the forbidden fruit.......others say that death overtook him at a later event.......maybe, because God banned them from the tree of life....

The last part of the sentence may be the most difficult of all to understand......."for that all have sinned...."

If we all died when he died, then, by a corresponding truth, we all became sinners when he (Adam) became a sinner.

The term "all" is inclusive of every person, without exception who came or comes from Adam, as a living human.

There are those who say that our nature changed......we have a "sin nature" now. I object to that statement because I do not believe that our natures changed........we changed in that; 1.) we are subject to death, and, 2.) we are subject to sin.

There are those who say that we experienced "spiritual death" and are in need of "spiritual life". I cannot find those terms in scripture where I find agreement with that theory. I find nowhere that the spirit "dies".

So, all this discussion relates back to a very fundamental understanding on what has happened to man. This is so important because as we get a more clear picture as to what has occurred because of Adam, then, we can also get a more clear picture of the glories of Christ.

Thanks for your part, Please continue,

Joel

[shawn]

Joel,

Thank you for your comments....and I appreciate the respect people show here in the Bible Wheel Forum....even though we may disagree with what is being presented. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ....I appreciate the kindness.

I grew up going to church with the belief that death is the physical...because that was what was preached....I accepted that....until I really started studying the Scriptures as an adult. My conclusion now is that physical life and death is just a metaphor for the true spiritual life and death: Life: living and experiencing the presence of God....having His Spirit living within us. Death: having no relationship with God...being left in the mind of the flesh.

In my opinion, Adam first brought sin onto all mankind.....and eventually "death"....as the flood symbolically demonstrated, the Law or Torah was going to be given.....the water that covered the earth was the Law. It was to destroy mankind....wherein is the "breath of life".....the Spirit.

(Gen 6:17 KJV) And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.


For mankind seemed to be more interested in living after the flesh than after the Spirit....for they strived with His Spirit:

(Gen 6:3 KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

And again their imaginations were continually evil:

(Gen 6:5 KJV) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

This strife with the Spirit is highlighted in Galatians 5. The Spirit and the flesh are "contrary" to each other....they oppose....are adversarial:

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


The men of the Spirit before the flood, the "Sons of God", fell into the flesh...they had strife with the Spirit....they did not strive to enter into God's rest.....Noah's name means "rest or peaceful".....Noah and the animals entered into the ark....a picture of entering into the rest of God....and we are to strive to enter into His rest...and not strive with His Spirit....not to "grieve" the Holy Spirit as the men did before the flood:

(Gen 6:6 KJV) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

and again:

(Eph 4:30 KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The men before the flood was full of violence before the flood...they were not kind to each other...no love...but we are to not be like them....we are to love each other:

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Here is a common theme,,,,,Cain was sent away from the presence of God because of violence....because of the lack of love for his brother. Sodom and Gomorrah also destroyed because of their violent nature as demonstrated by the men of the city at Lot's house. The violence of men on earth brought the flood. The violence against the Son of man brought judgment. And we are warned time and time again in the New Testament to love each other....because the time of the end is/will be full of violence:

Matthew 24: 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


The flood was symbolic of the giving of the Torah:

120 years....the time until the flood...and the age of Moses at his death.
40 days and 40 nights......it rained on the earth....and the time Moses was in the mountain receiving the Law.

The Torah....which offered life....brought death to mankind. Only Jesus could keep it wholly.....he "fulfilled" the Law:


(Mat 5:17 KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[joel]

Shawn,

To follow your discussion, please confirm what you mean by "Torah", is that specifically the first five books of the OT as written by Moses?

Joel

[shawn]

Joel,

When I said "Torah" I meant the Law as given to Moses....which no one could keep except Jesus.



and continuing....sorry for the length:

Jesus summed up the Law for us to live by:

Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Adam and Eve demonstrated that they did not love God with all their heart, soul and mind.....they disobeyed him...their love for Him was not perfect. They became afraid:

(Gen 3:10 KJV) And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Adam and Eve were not perfect in their love for God.....for there is "no fear" in perfect love:

(1 John 4:18 KJV) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Cain did not love God and did not love his brother as himself because he murdered his brother. Cain lied about his brother:

(Gen 4:9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Cain was the original "liar"....and all who follow his pattern are as well as shown in 1st John:

1 John 4: 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Cain was of the "wicked one" according to 1st John 3:12. And so were the Pharisees....according to Jesus....because they hated him...their brother and by this, they showed they did not love God:

(John 8:44 KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Before the flood, the earth was filled with violence....they did not love each other...and that was the last straw so to speak:

(Gen 6:13 KJV) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

After the flood, God required mankind to be our brother's keeper:

Genesis 9: 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

We are not to "eat"...."devour" the flesh with the life blood within....we are not to "devour" each other (Galatians 5:15) who are of the body of Christ...who have the Spirit of Life within... as mankind did before the flood....

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

This is also prophetic of how the Jews would be judged by the actions took against their brother Jesus. The blood of all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah would be required of them:

Luke 11: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Cain was a "tiller of the ground".....he did "wonderful works" of the earth....those things that mankind highly regards he produced as an offering to God....but Abel was a "keeper of sheep".....symbolic of all who care for and "keep" the "least brethren of mine."

Doing wonderful works in the name of the Lord without caring for the least brethren = Cain...a tiller of the ground:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Caring for the least brethren...a "keeper of sheep" = Abel:

(Mat 25:40 KJV) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jesus summed up the Law for us to live by:

Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Adam and Eve demonstrated that they did not love God with all their heart, soul and mind.....they disobeyed him...their love for Him was not perfect. They became afraid:

(Gen 3:10 KJV) And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Adam and Eve were not perfect in their love for God.....for there is "no fear" in perfect love:

(1 John 4:18 KJV) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Cain did not love God and did not love his brother as himself because he murdered his brother. Cain lied about his brother:

(Gen 4:9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Cain was the original "liar"....and all who follow his pattern are as well as shown in 1st John:

1 John 4: 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Cain was of the "wicked one" according to 1st John 3:12. And so were the Pharisees....according to Jesus....because they hated him...their brother and by this, they showed they did not love God:

(John 8:44 KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


I think those are powerful OT illustrations of NT doctrines. Good job linking them together. It reveals the beautiful integrity of the whole Bible, and how the Old and New Testaments are saying the same thing in different ways (primarily picture stories vs. logical propositions).

Richard

[shawn]

If anyone finds these things remotely interesting, I give glory to God.


(Jude 1:25 KJV) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

[Victor]

If anyone finds these things remotely interesting, I give glory to God.


(Jude 1:25 KJV) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

Let us give glory to Him! I find these verse comparisons very interesting, revealing the depths of Scriptural wisdom that constantly amazes us.

Victor

[alec cotton]

A lot has been said about original sin. Adam's sin was the acquisition of a conscience. In the bible,'fruit' is invariably a metaphor for result or outcome or consequence. Obviously the result of acquiring knowledge of good and evil was a conscience . Adam became aware of good and evil.
A conscience is a built in faculty which we condition. When we go against that conditioning it reminds us in a most unpleasant way. We must have a standard by which to live or we are utterly confused. In London there is a standard inch. A standard gallon. A standard pound. Everyone compares their measure with these measures. The only reliable standard that we have for living is the bible. Some a will say 'How do you know that the bible is the only reliable standard?'. Because I have put it under the microscope of critical examination and found not one flaw,spot or wrinkle. The commandment is 'BE PERFECT'. The standard ;'Even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.'We all fall short. Of course we do. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The law brings an awareness of sin. I am then aware that I need a remedy. God provided that remedy in the man of Galilee. All I have to do is turn away from my error and learn from him. I end this short note here because I am bone idle.
Alec

[joel]

Alec, you said: "Adam's sin was the acquisition of a conscience".

Did you mean to say; As a result of Adam's sin, he acquired a conscience?"

What happened in the garden, as the consequences of Adam's act, have such far reaching effects that we need to get a grip on what it really means.
I have been studying again, Paul's message in Romans. In the 5th chapter, we find the most comprehensive description of what happened there....it may be fruitful to discuss it.

Grace and peace,

Joel