The Church

[joel]

In many of our discussions, the word "church" appears.

As our discussions move forward, and, we have differing viewpoints as to what the word means, communication breaks down.

Does the "church" always speak of the same, exact same as some may assert?

Or, as others may claim, the word must be taken in context and mean one thing in a certain verse, and another thing in another verse.

Can we come to an agreement on this matter? Or, as in other threads, are we confined to differing viewpoints?

Paul said to the Corinthians (I);
1:10 Now, I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In many of our discussions, the word "church" appears.

As our discussions move forward, and, we have differing viewpoints as to what the word means, communication breaks down.

Does the "church" always speak of the same, exact same as some may assert?

Or, as others may claim, the word must be taken in context and mean one thing in a certain verse, and another thing in another verse.

Can we come to an agreement on this matter? Or, as in other threads, are we confined to differing viewpoints?

Paul said to the Corinthians (I);
1:10 Now, I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Joel
Excellent post Joel. :thumb: This is the kind of thing we need to do if we want to really come to an agreement about what they Bible says. And I think we all would like to do that as much as is possible, since it would fulfill the Biblical command that you quoted.


So let's begin with the basic definition as given by Strongs and see where that leads:
εκκλησια ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah} from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; TDNT - 3:501,394; n f AV - church 115, assembly 3; 118 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly 1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating 1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously 1d) in a Christian sense 1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting 1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake 1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body 1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth 1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

In all my discussion, when I use the word "Church" in a unqualified sense I mean it to refer to the Body of Christ, which is the mystical body of all believers living and dead that are united to God in Christ through faith.

One point of possible confusion is the relation of OT saints and the Christian church. We know Abraham is now a member of the Church because he was saved through faith and united to God in Christ. But the Church itself is defined by the New Covenant which was given in the first century. So this point probably needs a little discussion to clarify.

I think it would be incorrect to use the term "chuch" in an unqualified sense for the OT covenant community because it was under a different covenant and it is the covenant that defines the covenant community. But there is an unbroken continuity between the two communities, becuase the remnant of the Old became the nucleus of the New.

So in conclusion, I understand the Church to be the Body of Christ, the assembly of all - living or dead - who have been united to God in Christ through faith.

Richard

[Trumpet]

I agree Richard, that the church would be the N.T. believers. Would it be a help to call the O.T.believers something like the peeople of faith, or pehaps "the redeemed"? But then again, this would include N.T. and O.T. believers.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I agree Richard, that the church would be the N.T. believers. Would it be a help to call the O.T.believers something like the peeople of faith, or pehaps "the redeemed"? But then again, this would include N.T. and O.T. believers.
Hi Don,

That's a really good question. It seems to me that there is only one people of God at any one time, and that the OT saints during the time of the OT should probably not be called "the Church" when we are talking about the OT times, but now that the NT Church has come, they are included in it becuase they are united to God in Christ. But on the other hand, I feel some tension tugging me in the direction of calling them the "Chuch" even under the OT. It is still a little ambiguous to me which is why I am still working on getting the words exactly correct.

Richard

[joel]

[QUOTE=Richard][/there is only one people of God at any one time, and that the OT saints during the time of the OT should probably not be called "the Church" QUOTE]

(Joel)

Richard, I really like that.

And, can we say, "The people of God today, at this time, are the church, which is His body"?

Joel

[Rose]

Good question Joel, :thumb:

My definition of the "church" would have to be.....anyone who has a covenant relationship with God.

I know that in the O.T. they were not called the "church" but they had a covenant relationship with God the same as we have today, so speaking retrospectively they were also the church.

I like to keep things clear, and simple.

Rose

[Brother Les]

Greek for G1577 ἐκκλησία Transliteration (CHURCH)
ekklēsia
Pronunciation

ek-klā-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564




Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) ]the assembly of the Israelites[/COLOR]
c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total




Hebrew for H6951 קהל Transliteration (ASSEMBLY)
qahal
Pronunciation

kä·häl' (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from H6950





Outline of Biblical Usage 1) assembly, company, congregation, convocationa) assembly

1) for evil counsel, war or invasion, religious purposes
b) company (of returning exiles)

c) congregation1) as organised body




Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Lev 4:13 ¶ And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which should not be done, and are guilty;


Lev 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.


Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.



Lev 8:3 And gather thou all the congregation together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.


Lev 8:4 And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; and the assembly was gathered together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.


Lev 8:5 And Moses said unto the congregation, This [is] the thing which the LORD commanded to be done.

Lev 23:35 On the first day [shall be] an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work [therein].


Lev 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it [is] a solemn assembly; [and] ye shall do no servile work [therein].


Lev 23:37 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:


Lev 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Num 8:9 And thou shalt bring the Levites before the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt gather the whole assembly of the children of Israel together:


Num 8:10 And thou shalt bring the Levites before the LORD: and the children of Israel shall put their hands upon the Levites:


Num 8:11 And Aaron shall offer the Levites before the LORD [for] an offering of the children of Israel, that they may execute the service of the LORD.


Num 8:12 And the Levites shall lay their hands upon the heads of the bullocks: and thou shalt offer the one [for] a sin offering, and the other [for] a burnt offering, unto the LORD, to make an atonement for the Levites.


Num 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.


Num 10:3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.


Num 10:4 And if they blow [but] with one [trumpet], then the princes, [which are] heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.


Num 10:5 When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.


Num 10:6 When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.


Num 10:7 But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.


There are many more examples on how the 'churches' of today are the same pattern of the 'congregation of Israel'. The straight line flow of Gods 'people' can not be denied from Abram as 'a' Church', Assmbly, congragation...ect...to this very day.

Even in many of the 'dark days' of rebellion, God kept for Himself a large numbr of 'The People' that He called His own.


Brother Les

[Richard Amiel McGough]

[quote=Richard][/there is only one people of God at any one time, and that the OT saints during the time of the OT should probably not be called "the Church" QUOTE]

(Joel)

Richard, I really like that.

And, can we say, "The people of God today, at this time, are the church, which is His body"?

Joel
Well, as I think about it more, I can't find any clear reason not to identify the OT saints as members of the Body of Christ and hence all OT believers would be called the "church" just like the NT believers.

I base this on the fact that Abraham is the "father of all who believe" so it seems obvious that Abraham is in the Body of Christ. I know you don't like this idea, but I'm not sure why. Could you explain why we should make a distinction between the OT and NT believers?

Richard

[White]

Hello Richard, Rose, Joel and All,

I have been busy lately, but as I'm checking today the activities on the Biblewheel, I came across this new thread about the church.

Being challenged to study Church History right now - after meeting a Tribunal Judge in my Parish - a wonderful and thoughful Priest from Ghana who is very open minded, kind and most interesting, I feel a need to contribute to this thread.

The following verses are very important in this discussion. Allow me then to quote the only two times that "THE CHURCH" is mentioned in the Gospels, but altogether I believe there are 112 mentions of "church" in the rest of the NT :

Matthew 16: 13ff
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

The key to the kingdom is given to Peter whose real name was Simon, but his new name Peter means "rock". These passages seem to show that Jesus intended to establish a particular Church that would go forth into the world on a universal mission of teaching, sanctifying and governing. Now, in the following passage, Christ goes beyond the establishment of the Church. Just listen

Matthew 18:15-18
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As incredible as it may sound, Jesus HIMSELF said that somebody who does not listen to His church is worse than a Gentile or a tax collector, and we all know that those were not held in high esteem.

It seems that the discussion here is about the establishment of a new way to govern the Body of believers. By not following the councel of the "church" , according to the Word of God, we become our own captain wanting to steer the ship by ignoring the teaching authority of Christ / and His Church, thus repeating the sin of rebellion and omission just as Sdam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden.

Now, 2000 years later, and 400+ years after the Reformation, we have so much division among the body of Christ with over 28 000 different Christian "religions" all serving the ONE CHRIST in their own way, pretty much contrary to what Jesus said 2000 years ago.

God is sitting on HIS throne, tears are streaming down His face
for lack of knowledge My people shall die, how come you believers are so shy? (part of a poem I wrote on 9/21/96)

One day I was complaining to the LORD about people thinking "I was off the wall" (of course just following the leading of the Holy Spirit can look "off the wall" to some people), but the LORD said to me : "But you cannot be "off the wall"; we don't have any walls up here!" The message: break down the walls; work on becoming ONE, ONE IN CHRIST, ONE IN LOVE.

That is the true task that lays ahead and I'm looking forward to a thoughtful and fruitful discussion on this subject.


Shalom to Jerusalem & the Holy Land
Shalom to you Richard, and all on this forum and to the Church
Shalom.
Monique

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard, Rose, Joel and All,

I have been busy lately, but as I'm checking today the activities on the Biblewheel, I came across this new thread about the church.

Hi Monique!

Glad you found some time to drop by and share your insights.


It seems that the discussion here is about the establishment of a new way to govern the Body of believers. By not following the councel of the "church" , according to the Word of God, we become our own captain wanting to steer the ship by ignoring the teaching authority of Christ / and His Church, thus repeating the sin of rebellion and omission just as Sdam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden.

I highlighted the phrase "Body of believers" in red so its contrast with the "church" would be evident. It seems to me that the Bible uses the word "Church" to refer to "the Body of Believers." Sure, there are pastors and shepherds within the Body/Church, but there is no such thing as a "Church" separate from the Body. Are you thinking along the lines of the Roman Catholic Church as ruler over the Body of Christians?


Now, 2000 years later, and 400+ years after the Reformation, we have so much division among the body of Christ with over 28 000 different Christian "religions" all serving the ONE CHRIST in their own way, pretty much contrary to what Jesus said 2000 years ago.

I agree that the division in the Body of Christ is lamentable, but it seems that the division caused by people following God according to their own conscience is better than people united under a false dictatorial ecclesiastical magisterium.


God is sitting on HIS throne, tears are streaming down His face
for lack of knowledge My people shall die, how come you believers are so shy? (part of a poem I wrote on 9/21/96)

One day I was complaining to the LORD about people thinking "I was off the wall" (of course just following the leading of the Holy Spirit can look "off the wall" to some people), but the LORD said to me : "But you cannot be "off the wall"; we don't have any walls up here!" The message: break down the walls; work on becoming ONE, ONE IN CHRIST, ONE IN LOVE.

That is the true task that lays ahead and I'm looking forward to a thoughtful and fruitful discussion on this subject.

Wonderful! I look forward to your contribution. We are faced with a great challenge. There may not be "walls in heaven" but the solution to our disunity is not so simple because there are many much needed walls down here because Light has no "unity" with Darkness which means we can not simply be "ONE IN CHRIST" if not all are "IN CHRIST" to begin with. There are real reasons for the divisions. Not everyone agrees about the teachings of the Bible, or which human organization should be "in charge" over the Body of Christ (if any).



Shalom to Jerusalem & the Holy Land
Shalom to you Richard, and all on this forum and to the Church
Shalom.
Monique
And God's peace to you, sister!

Richard

[Brother Les]

White Posts
The key to the kingdom is given to Peter whose real name was Simon, but his new name Peter means "rock". These passages seem to show that Jesus intended to establish a particular Church that would go forth into the world on a universal mission of teaching, sanctifying and governing. Now, in the following passage, Christ goes beyond the establishment of the Church. Just listen

I am trying to understand your drift here. You are stating that "Jesus intended to establish a particular Church that would go forth into the world on a universal mission of teaching, sanctifying and governing."Is not that what 'The Assembly of Israel' were commanded to do from the 'get go'...? I do not see this as 'a' particular church,, but 'The Sect of The Way'...'Jesus' could not 'establish' anything without the full Blessing and Knowledge of The Father. Jesus was not 'establishing' 'a' seperate 'WAY', Jesus was pointing to the Only Way. Peter ("get behind Me satan, --Peter--) (you will deny Me three times,--Peter--) was given the 'keys' (real metal keys?) of the Kingdom of "Heaven'. Jesus was asked, "Will you at this time 'REstore' the Kingdom. The 'Resurrection' of 'The Dead' was the Restoration of 'The Kingdom', 'Israel', and all of Heaven and Earth. Peter 'had' The Keys'...Peter had 'The Tools'...to make The Heavenly AND Earthly Kingdom of God come about at the Consemation of The Old Mosaic Covenant Age....'The Church'...was not 'a' 'Particular Church'....it was the 'same' church that God used down through the Ages...it was only that at this time period that Peter had 'the tools' (keys) to lead it.

Brother Les

[Trumpet]

Hi Guys,

Richard said in response to White:

Wonderful! I look forward to your contribution. We are faced with a great challenge. There may not be "walls in heaven" but the solution to our disunity is not so simple because there are many much needed walls down here because Light has no "unity" with Darkness which means we can not simply be "ONE IN CHRIST" if not all are "IN CHRIST" to begin with. There are real reasons for the divisions. Not everyone agrees about the teachings of the Bible, or which human organization should be "in charge" over the Body of Christ (if any).


There is NO human organization "in charge" over the Body of Christ! I know that Richard realizes this simple fact. Jesus is in charge, through the Holy Spirit. The problem with the disunity in the "church" was given by Jesus in a parable. Matt. 13:33, Another parable He spake unto them: The kingdom of Heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

There's an old saying that goes, "If your looking for a perfect church, you're not going to find it." People would use that as an excuse to get you to go to their imperfect church. But actually, NO church organization is perfect, nor can it be.

The kingdom at the present time is almost completely full of leaven, so the teaching of organizations is very mixed with leaven too. That's why it's so vital for us to read the Word as our foundational teaching, and then compare the Word with the analysis given by men. The ideas of men help greatly, but everyone's teaching comes colored through the mind of the one giving the teaching, and we need to take that into account. Many people don't want to take the time necessary to study the Word, and learn from the Spirit, and they would rather have someone else lay it out for them so that it's easier. But the end result is a diminishment of God in that person's life, because God knows who is willing to develop a relationship with Him through prayer and the Word.

Also, the Passover, which Jesus fulfilled, was a feast that had an offering of barley alone. But the Pentecost feast, which represents also the church age, had an offering of wheat mixed with leaven. All symbolism.

[White]

Hello Richard, Brother Les and Trumpet,

I don't have much time right now, but will work on your questions. The below mentioned text from Corinthians is a good one to ponder in the meantime:

1 Corinthians 14:25ff
Orderly Worship
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Shabbat Shalom & Peace to Jerusalem
Monique

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Guys,

Richard said in response to White:

There is NO human organization "in charge" over the Body of Christ! I know that Richard realizes this simple fact. Jesus is in charge, through the Holy Spirit. The problem with the disunity in the "church" was given by Jesus in a parable. Matt. 13:33, Another parable He spake unto them: The kingdom of Heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Hi Don,

You got that right! There is No human organization "in charge" over the Body of Christ. Amen!

But I've never thought of the leaven in that parable as relating to disunity. It seems to me that the "leaven" in that parable is different than in most other passages where it is a symbol of sin or of false doctrine. In that parable, the leaven seems to be a symbol of growth from very small and apparently insignificant beginnings - just like the mustard seed parable and the Stone cut without hands that grows to fill the whole world (Dan 2). But it could be the "leaven" of human doctrines as you discuss below .... I'm not certain (funny thing about parables, they allow for so many interpretations).


There's an old saying that goes, "If your looking for a perfect church, you're not going to find it." People would use that as an excuse to get you to go to their imperfect church. But actually, NO church organization is perfect, nor can it be.

The kingdom at the present time is almost completely full of leaven, so the teaching of organizations is very mixed with leaven too. That's why it's so vital for us to read the Word as our foundational teaching, and then compare the Word with the analysis given by men. The ideas of men help greatly, but everyone's teaching comes colored through the mind of the one giving the teaching, and we need to take that into account. Many people don't want to take the time necessary to study the Word, and learn from the Spirit, and they would rather have someone else lay it out for them so that it's easier. But the end result is a diminishment of God in that person's life, because God knows who is willing to develop a relationship with Him through prayer and the Word.

Funny thing about the doctrinal "leaven" - everything we have learned has been touched by it, and it only takes a little to leaven the whole lump. This presents a huge challenge even for folks who "look only to the Bible" for their answers, because the Bible was translated by folks with certain presuppositions, and all the commentaries have their own assumptions, and since we are born into a world full of opinions our very perceptions themselves are "colored" by them without our knowledge. It takes a lifetime to see past all the assumptions and interpretational presuppositions that we take for granted.


Also, the Passover, which Jesus fulfilled, was a feast that had an offering of barley alone. But the Pentecost feast, which represents also the church age, had an offering of wheat mixed with leaven. All symbolism.

I think this is another example of leaven having a different symbolism than either sin or false doctrine. It ties together very well with the Kingdom parable of the woman who hid the leaven in the three measures of dough. Perhaps the Gentiles are the "leaven" that has been added (grafted) in with the unleavened bread (Remnant Israel)?

Richard

[joel]

I think it would be incorrect to use the term "chuch" in an unqualified sense for the OT covenant community because it was under a different covenant and it is the covenant that defines the covenant community. But there is an unbroken continuity between the two communities, becuase the remnant of the Old became the nucleus of the New.

So in conclusion, I understand the Church to be the Body of Christ, the assembly of all - living or dead - who have been united to God in Christ through faith.



The ecclesia, the called out assembly, can be any group that is "called out".

The ecclesia which is called out to be aligned with God are the assembly that we are discussing.

The ecclesia, which was called out of Egypt, was the assembly of Israel's seed which was called out of Egypt to venture into the wilderness and ultimately return to the land promised to the forefather, Abraham.

The ecclesia, which was called out of the Jewish people during the time of Christ's ministry, believed in Him, and were separated from the Jews who were not recognizing Him as their Messiah.

The ecclesia which did recognize Him and were comprised of Jewish believers who were among those in the assembly that gathered in Jerusalem after His departure were those which were among the assembly as described in the early portions of the Acts.

The ecclesia of which Paul was the chief spokesperson was comprised mostly of Gentiles believers with a smaller portion of Jewish believers.

The ecclesia which is now is comprised of many members, in many lands, from many backgrounds.

God's called out assembly, called out from the bulk of humanity, and called at different times, has gone through a cycle of changes. Overall, all the various parts are a part of the whole. During each cycle, those who are called out, are separated from the remainder of humanity.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The ecclesia which is now is comprised of many members, in many lands, from many backgrounds.

God's called out assembly, called out from the bulk of humanity, and called at different times, has gone through a cycle of changes. Overall, all the various parts are a part of the whole. During each cycle, those who are called out, are separated from the remainder of humanity.

Joel
Correct. The whole of humanity is divided into those who are "in Adam" and those who are "in Christ" - the latter being that which defines the Christian Church.

Does that make sense to you Joel?

Richard

[joel]

The whole of humanity is divided into those who are "in Adam" and those who are "in Christ"

Amen.

A.)
[Adam]
l
[all of humanity]

B.
[all............... of humanity]
1. l
[In Christ]
l
[those who
are "in Christ"
now]
2.
[In Adam]
l
[those who
are not "in Christ"
now]

All of humanity are A.), indicating the place when all individuals are when they are born, and as they live during their lifetime This is a universal truth for all of humanity, without exception.

but not all of humanity are
B.1. [those who are "in Christ" now]

Would you agree with this, Richard?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The whole of humanity is divided into those who are "in Adam" and those who are "in Christ"

Amen.

A.)
[Adam]
l
[all of humanity]

B.
[all............... of humanity]
1. l
[In Christ]
l
[those who
are "in Christ"
now]
2.
[In Adam]
l
[those who
are not "in Christ"
now]

All of humanity are A.), indicating the place when all individuals are when they are born, and as they live during their lifetime This is a universal truth for all of humanity, without exception.

but not all of humanity are
B.1. [those who are "in Christ" now]

Would you agree with this, Richard?

Joel
Good morning Joel,

Yes indeed, I agree with what you wrote - how could I not? Every person is physcially born "in Adam" and some are then spiritually born "in Christ."


I note one subtle point - you truncated what I wrote before saying "Amen." I had written this:
The whole of humanity is divided into those who are "in Adam" and those who are "in Christ" - the latter being that which defines the Christian Church.
But you left off the latter part in blue when you said "Amen." Does that mean you disagree with those words? I ask because this impacts the central question of this thread you started, which concerns the definition of the Church.

Richard