Understanding the Beast of Revelation 13 and 17

[gilgal]

Has anyone heard of the Golem of Jewish folklore?

The most famous golem narrative involves Rabbi Judah Loew the Maharal of Prague, a 16th century rabbi. He is reported to have created a golem to defend the Prague ghetto of Josefov from Anti-Semitic attacks. The story of the Golem first appeared in print in 1847 in a collection of Jewish tales entitled Galerie der Sippurim, published by Wolf Pascheles of Prague. About sixty years later, a fictional account was published by Yudl Rosenberg (1909).

According to the legend, the Emperor made an edict proclaiming that the Jews in Prague were to be either expelled or killed (depending on the version of the story). A golem could be made of clay from the banks of the Vltava river in Prague. Following the prescribed rituals, the Rabbi built the Golem and made him come to life by reciting special incantations in Hebrew. The Rabbi's intention was to have the Golem protect the Jewish community from harm. As Rabbi Loew's Golem grew bigger, he also became more violent and started killing the Gentiles (non-Jews) and spreading fear. Some versions also add that the Golem turns on his creator and attacks either his creator alone or the creator and the Jews as well... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem)

Could the Golem be a type of the Anti-Christ?

The woman rides the beast in Revelation 17. The woman sitting on 7 mountains ( Jerusalem ) reigns the kings of the earth in the last days. But then the beast turns against her. The beast is in Jerusalem in Revelation 11:7.

In Revelation 17:16 the horns of the beast will burn her with fire. In 1 Peter when Peter said that he is in Babylon ( 1 Peter 5:13 ) he meant Jerusalem, the Babylon of Revelation 14, 16, 17, 18.

Was Iraq invaded for having weapons of mass destruction? ( burning with fire... Revelation 17:16 ) yes and Saddam is not the beast of Revelation.

Is Iran targeted for uraniums? yes. But Ahmadinejad is not the beast.

Does Israel have nuclear bombs? Yes. They even have the Samson ( who brought the pillars down on himself killing himself and the others too ) mentality that if the entire world is against them they're ready to use it...even if it means suicide.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Has anyone heard of the Golem of Jewish folklore?

Could the Golem be a type of the Anti-Christ?

Yes I've heard of the golem - that's an old legend from more occultic side of Judaism. I don't believe there is any truth in it, so I don't think it could have anything to do with a future "Anti-Christ." But then, I don't believe there will be a future "Anti-Christ" anyway. I believe that the "man of sin" of 2 Thes 2 was the second beast/false prophet of Rev 13, and that he was active in the Temple in the great tribulation of the "last days" in 66-70 AD.


The woman rides the beast in Revelation 17. The woman sitting on 7 mountains ( Jerusalem ) reigns the kings of the earth in the last days. But then the beast turns against her. The beast is in Jerusalem in Revelation 11:7.

In Revelation 17:16 the horns of the beast will burn her with fire. In 1 Peter when Peter said that he is in Babylon ( 1 Peter 5:13 ) he meant Jerusalem, the Babylon of Revelation 14, 16, 17, 18.

Was Iraq invaded for having weapons of mass destruction? ( burning with fire... Revelation 17:16 ) yes and Saddam is not the beast of Revelation.

Is Iran targeted for uraniums? yes. But Ahmadinejad is not the beast.

Does Israel have nuclear bombs? Yes. They even have the Samson ( who brought the pillars down on himself killing himself and the others too ) mentality that if the entire world is against them they're ready to use it...even if it means suicide.
History proves that every generation since Christ has been able to map their own religious and political events onto the symbols used in Revelation. Our generation is no different. I see little validity in such an exercise.

Richard

[gilgal]

Yeah but the end times shows the ultimate fulfillment of the Woman Riding the Beast.

Esther the queen and Mordechai the adviser told the Gentile King what to do. Nowadays Jews pick and target a new Haman to overcome. They picked on Saddam. Now they're after Ahmadinejad.

So the Woman rides the beast.

And the Anti-Christ force is growing as we're branded as terrorists.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yeah but the end times shows the ultimate fulfillment of the Woman Riding the Beast.

Esther the queen and Mordechai the adviser told the Gentile King what to do. Nowadays Jews pick and target a new Haman to overcome. They picked on Saddam. Now they're after Ahmadinejad.

So the Woman rides the beast.

Are you saying the the Jews run the American government, and that America is the "Beast" of Revelation?

[basilfo]

Yeah but the end times shows the ultimate fulfillment of the Woman Riding the Beast.

Esther the queen and Mordechai the adviser told the Gentile King what to do. Nowadays Jews pick and target a new Haman to overcome. They picked on Saddam. Now they're after Ahmadinejad.

So the Woman rides the beast.

And the Anti-Christ force is growing as we're branded as terrorists.

Hi gilgal,
Richard correctly pointed out that the timing of this 'golem' would be at odds with the timing given by John and Paul on when 'antichristos' or the 'man of sin' would be revealed. Paul said the MOS would sit in 'the temple of God' - and that envelope closed in 70AD. Even a bogus building erected in the future could not be called 'THE temple of God' now that we reside in the New Covenant.

In addition to that, I believe your interp of the harlot and beast is incorrect. The harlot is said to be drunk with the blood of the prophets. That is Jerusalem, not Rome.

Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

Revelation 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
Revelation 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
Revelation 18:10 "standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
Revelation 18:16 "and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
Revelation 18:19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'


Matt 23:34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

[gilgal]

Hi gilgal,
Richard correctly pointed out that the timing of this 'golem' would be at odds with the timing given by John and Paul on when 'antichristos' or the 'man of sin' would be revealed. Paul said the MOS would sit in 'the temple of God' - and that envelope closed in 70AD. Even a bogus building erected in the future could not be called 'THE temple of God' now that we reside in the New Covenant.

In addition to that, I believe your interp of the harlot and beast is incorrect. The harlot is said to be drunk with the blood of the prophets. That is Jerusalem, not Rome.

Rev 17:4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

Revelation 14:8 And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."
Revelation 17:18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
Revelation 18:10 "standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
Revelation 18:16 "and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
Revelation 18:19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'


Matt 23:34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

I'm in total agreement that the harlot of Revelation is Jerusalem and not Rome. Even the Papacy desires to settle his seat in Jerusalem. Why would the crusades take place otherwise? Why did they crown a European monarch with the title of King of Jerusalem ( of course there is a long story that follows that because the first king, Godfroi de Bouillon I think refused to take the title of King of Jerusalem but his brother, I think took it. )?

And Jerusalem being under the Ottoman Empire was unlikely to play any significant end-time role. But The Zionist congress, I believe in Vienna planned to break up the Empire and the British took over in 1917.

Nowadays Israel isn't obeying any international laws doing what they please.

Come on guys let's use some logic here! Don't you think God is going to punish a brutal nation as that? Now that Iraq is under American occupation they're building oil pipelines towards Israel!

Still I don't think Jerusalem has reached such an exalted state as sitting as a Queen over the waters which represent the nations and people. But I think we're getting there.

[Brother Les]

gilgal,

The Harolot, Jerusalem is the Old Covenant Harlot and 'she' was 'killed' in AD.70
We are in The New Covenant Age.
What is going on today is just bad Biblical exigesus of the time element.

You may be trying to point out that 'the Israel' in the middleeast is 'a' rogue state 'today' and that 'the USA' is being 'used' as 'a' 'Golem of 'old'....the 'Israel' of the Middleeast will one day be the victem of its' own 'creation' (Golem monster) and be destroyed by 'that' 'Blowback' reaction....You seem to be giving the 'Jerusalem of today' more Biblical credibility than it deserves, it has none and should be looked at as such.

Brother Les

[gilgal]

gilgal,

The Harolot, Jerusalem is the Old Covenant Harlot and 'she' was 'killed' in AD.70
We are in The New Covenant Age.
What is going on today is just bad Biblical exigesus of the time element.


Yes I agree the new covenant age but I don't agree the judgment has been recompensed yet. Why? Have you seen a white horse coming out of heaven whose rider is called faithful and true?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yes I agree the new covenant age but I don't agree the judgment has been recompensed yet. Why? Have you seen a white horse coming out of heaven whose rider is called faithful and true?
Hey there Gilgal,

I think we need to establish the difference between "symbols" and "physical reality" in the Bible. Do you really expect to see the symbols of Revelation to be manifested in physical reality? When we see Christ on a literal white horse, should we expect to see a literal sword sticking out of His literal mouth? Will we see a seven headed dragron? A woman standing on the moon?

Do you think that David really saw literal "smoke" coming out of the "nostrils" of the Lord (Ps 18:8)? Was Isaiah saying the the Egyptians would literally see YHVH riding "upon a swift cloud" (Isa 19:1)?

The Bible won't make any sense at all until we get these basic questions answered.

Richard

[gilgal]

Hey there Gilgal,

I think we need to establish the difference between "symbols" and "physical reality" in the Bible. Do you really expect to see the symbols of Revelation to be manifested in physical reality? When we see Christ on a literal white horse, should we expect to see a literal sword sticking out of His literal mouth? Will we see a seven headed dragron? A woman standing on the moon?

Do you think that David really saw literal "smoke" coming out of the "nostrils" of the Lord (Ps 18:8)? Was Isaiah saying the the Egyptians would literally see YHVH riding "upon a swift cloud" (Isa 19:1)?

The Bible won't make any sense at all until we get these basic questions answered.

Richard

But the woman in heaven clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet is evident of being a sign, possibly some astrological sign. Virgo and Draco?

God riding on a swift cloud may be real and not just symbolical. Look guys. It's not good to allegorize everything unless the text specifically says to take it allegorically.

I take Revelation 19 literally. But the sword coming out of his mouth is clearly interpreted along with the other passages that it means the word of God.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

But the woman in heaven clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet is evident of being a sign, possibly some astrological sign. Virgo and Draco?

God riding on a swift cloud may be real and not just symbolical. Look guys. It's not good to allegorize everything unless the text specifically says to take it allegorically.

I take Revelation 19 literally. But the sword coming out of his mouth is clearly interpreted along with the other passages that it means the word of God.
Hey there Gilgal,

I'm glad you are pursuing this question of how to intepret the symbols in the Bible. The first thing to understand is that no one is "allegorizing" anything. That is a false characterization that is thrown out by folks who don't know how to intepret the Bible. It is designed to make it sound like folks who don't interpret the Bible "literally" are "doing something to the text" rather than interpreting it the way God intended it to be interpreted.

You admit that the Sword is a symbol of God's Word, but you insist that Christ on the white horse - which appears in the same passage - is literal. How do you justify flipping back and forth like that?

Does this mean that you expect "Death" to be seen riding around on his pale horse? With Hades following after him? (To clean up the literal horse droppings, perhaps? :lol:)

Do you understand my point? The real ERROR of interpretation is the "principle" that says you should interpret things "literally" whenever possible. The reason that is an error is obvious. The Bible is filled with symbols. We know that God uses them frequently, especially in Revelation. We know that God often uses symbols without the text explicitly stating the fact at every turn. Therefore, the "litieralism rule" causes people to misniterpret the Bible, and that is a very serious error to teach.

Richard

[gilgal]

Hey there Gilgal,

I'm glad you are pursuing this question of how to intepret the symbols in the Bible. The first thing to understand is that no one is "allegorizing" anything. That is a false characterization that is thrown out by folks who don't know how to intepret the Bible. It is designed to make it sound like folks who don't interpret the Bible "literally" are "doing something to the text" rather than interpreting it the way God intended it to be interpreted.

You admit that the Sword is a symbol of God's Word, but you insist that Christ on the white horse - which appears in the same passage - is literal. How do you justify flipping back and forth like that?

Does this mean that you expect "Death" to be seen riding around on his pale horse? With Hades following after him? (To clean up the literal horse droppings, perhaps? :lol:)

Do you understand my point? The real ERROR of interpretation is the "principle" that says you should interpret things "literally" whenever possible. The reason that is an error is obvious. The Bible is filled with symbols. We know that God uses them frequently, especially in Revelation. We know that God often uses symbols without the text explicitly stating the fact at every turn. Therefore, the "litieralism rule" causes people to misniterpret the Bible, and that is a very serious error to teach.

Richard

I think it's beyond symbolism. Maybe we can say that they are spiritual. Because whatever' spiritual, we don't necessarily see but they exist.

Do you believe in Christ's literal second coming? If you consider that Revelation 19 is to be interpreted symbolically then what about his first coming and crucifixion? Did it really happen?

[basilfo]

Nowadays Israel isn't obeying any international laws doing what they please.

Come on guys let's use some logic here! Don't you think God is going to punish a brutal nation as that? Now that Iraq is under American occupation they're building oil pipelines towards Israel!

Still I don't think Jerusalem has reached such an exalted state as sitting as a Queen over the waters which represent the nations and people. But I think we're getting there.

Hi Gilgal,
I think that's a great suggestion. Let's try it real slow.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants -- things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified [it] by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near.

[10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

John says the things he saw and wrote about were "things which must shortly take place", for "the time is near/at hand".

You say some of those things have yet to be fulfilled almost 2000 yrs later.

How is that logical? I hope you're not 'allegorizing' the text.

How do explain your interpretation if it is at odds with John's timing?

Peace to you,
Dave

[Christan]

2000 years is nothing . Short is an understatement for the time line of Creation. Take a look at some photos of the Giza and consider the Days of OLD. Bi Peds have been walking this earth alot longer than 6000 years. Adam and Eve were Cousins . Adam being the sum of all the living tribes on the planet known as Dust (Living matter) of the Earth. A rib ( Portion ) of his lineage( Family) was taken from him to form something that he could relate to in a Female form. (Help meet) The other Bipeds around him were not the Crown of creation as he was . His animus was not yet created. Take a look at the flood account and you will see that in fact the animals boarding the ark were bipeds. Ish and Ishtos ( husbands and wives) and then a few critters . As far as the Horse issue without a doubt the horse symbolizes the female aspects or Means of locomotion. Mashiach and the Saints are united in pairs. Which bring some to the end of this reply noting that the day of Christ's circumcision is not longer recognized . Its like the member was cut off. This parallels the account of Osiris and his lost member. Peace. Christan

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Take a look at the flood account and you will see that in fact the animals boarding the ark were bipeds. Ish and Ishtos ( husbands and wives) and then a few critters .

This is what I love about this forum ... I never noticed the use of "Ish" and "Ishto" in that passage.

This is a good example of how we should interpet Scripture. The most common meaning of "ish" is "man" in the sense of "human male." But is that understanding justified in this case? I would say certainly not. We know that exactly four human males were on the ark, because this is stated in both the Old and New Testaments. So the meaning of "ish" and "ishto" in this context must be interpreted as the "man and wife" metaphorically applied to the paired animals.


We see a similar use of "ish" for things that are not "human males" in many contexts. For example,
Genesis 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece (ish) one against another: but the birds divided he not.

And in the description of the Temple furniture:
1 Kings 7:30 And every base had four brasen wheels, and plates of brass: and the four corners thereof had undersetters: under the laver were undersetters molten, at the side of every (ish) addition.
To interpret "ish" in Gen 7:2 as referring to "bipeds" is a good example of a misunderstanding caused by a false literalism. The meaning of words depends on their context.

Richard

[Christan]

Well here is where I am coming from. I approached Genesis with total reverence. I have been chanting it for 13 years now. I didn't have a computer until 01. I was told my lexicon and dictionaries were enough along with the Torah and other other writings NT ... &. I gardened learned how to write hebrew as an art and have written a good portion of hebrew especially the hardcore rules in the Torah. I have always believed that the Holy spirit would guide my study and he does. Thank you for allowing me to share.I will continue to do so if allowed. I have chutzpah too:thumb: coming from a more shall we say Jewish perspective. I will do my earnest to respectfully share. The Question I pose to You is this. How do you know what a word is unless you put it on ? Its one thing to break down a ( Root language) and grind it up for food. Its another to live and pray through it as a spoken living language. (I am still learning of course) I stand on my interpretation that Ish and Ishto is indicative of Human Man Wife Archetypes of animals. Judah is a Lion ,Judith would be his wife Ariel. Noah's ark is a mystery that I am currently studying. Its actually in a real sense not finished yet.(Neat Idea huh?) I assert that Hebrew is much more complex than reference books convey. Didn't Jesus say Father Glorify thy Word as it was in the beginning ? Take a look at the verb tenses alone especially the closer you get to breshit and things get mighty daunting. Did God plant a garden in Eden or Will God plant a garden in Eden ?
Exodus 6 verses 6-8. Behold the foundation stone the builders rejected this is it.:yo:. It fits into Breshit Chapter one . As I first studied it I saw a Chromosome in my minds eye. I then felt the presence of dwelling within the Lamb . Ani YHVH 23 words Ani YHVH 23 words Ani YHVH. The Human Genome Brother right there with YHVH being the Glue along with a little Bull. (Fertility). 46 plus 6 equals 52 plus unity is 53 EBEN. It is the first official introduction of the name YHVH to BNEY YISRAEL (Stones of Israel). It is the Foundation stone the builders rejected. It is Yeshuah. :pop2:Zechariah chapter 3. Tsemach is the function I identify with as my job. Count out Psalm 23 YHVH-YHVH is 53 go to Isiah 53 I will count again myself but I found a function of the 23 rd prime 83 in word count. I am pretty sure but will recheck what it is I did.I am still re assimilating everything. Its a daily task we all face.
Verses 6-8 Exodus 6 is made up of 7 verbs 1st person past tense. So in fact it is an end statement not a promise initialized but a promise fulfilled and recalled. After all is said and done it it this verse that is at the top of the verbal hebrew pyramid mixed in with breshit. ANI is the Eye of Taurus the Bull. ( Stars Matter they are roadsigns) Ani= 61 Isiah 61 is the Haftorah Jesus read in the synagogue. Perhaps it is the song of the Lamb eh ? Sure beats the campaign slogans. I didnt need a computer to do and recieve what I have done. Just a simple calculator. Not that your work isnt invaluable. It is renders computers useful like a cleaning of bitter waters. Thank you for you effort. :thumb: I am just saying where I am coming from . Hebrew is the divine code of genetics. All the laws of nature are in it you know that. Actual DNA are chemical words. God is a living God. The Stone EBEN is a living stone.53 is the 16 prime 2 to the 4th power . It is a Jerusalem cross , it is mutiplication through division. I might not be as neat and tidy as some but my words are fertile. No messy stall , no ox, no work being done. I hope you like this .I find it invigorating. Peace >christan

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Well here is where I am coming from. I approached Genesis with total reverence. I have been chanting it for 13 years now. I didn't have a computer until 01. I was told my lexicon and dictionaries were enough along with the Torah and other other writings NT ... &. I gardened learned how to write hebrew as an art and have written a good portion of hebrew especially the hardcore rules in the Torah. I have always believed that the Holy spirit would guide my study and he does. Thank you for allowing me to share.I will continue to do so if allowed. I have chutzpah too:thumb: coming from a more shall we say Jewish perspective. I will do my earnest to respectfully share.

Hey there Christan,

Perhaps we can be "brothers in chutzpah" - :lol:

I very much appreciate you resprectful attitude. I will strive to live up to the same standard. I certainly meant no disrespect in anything I said. I merely stated my opinion rather matter of factly (which can come across a little "dry" or "sharp" on the forum sometimes).

And you needn't worry about being "allowed" to post. Anyone who does not seek to be deliberately disruptive or rude can post freely.


The Question I pose to You is this. How do you know what a word is unless you put it on ? Its one thing to break down a ( Root language) and grind it up for food. Its another to live and pray through it as a spoken living language. (I am still learning of course) I stand on my interpretation that Ish and Ishto is indicative of Human Man Wife Archetypes of animals. Judah is a Lion ,Judith would be his wife Ariel. Noah's ark is a mystery that I am currently studying. Its actually in a real sense not finished yet.(Neat Idea huh?) I assert that Hebrew is much more complex than reference books convey. Didn't Jesus say Father Glorify thy Word as it was in the beginning ? Take a look at the verb tenses alone especially the closer you get to breshit and things get mighty daunting. Did God plant a garden in Eden or Will God plant a garden in Eden ?

I see that you are drinking deep from the richness of the Hebrew language. That is absolutely wonderful. In my first response, I was responding on the Peshat level because it seems like you were talking about literal human bipeds in addition to the eight literal human bipeds we already knew were there. Now I see you were thinking of Archetypes, and that's a whole different issue (and a very interesting one at that!) I have no problem at all interpreting the unusual description of "ish v'ishto" as possible carrying some deeper meaning.

I readily acknowledge that our interpretation of the Bible has been largely formed by many inherited traditions that may be completely wrong and misleading. Many of there errors are based on an ignorance of the original languages. I look forward to exploring it with you.

As for the Garden being planted in the future - wouldn't that mess with the whole Biblical narative that follows continuously from the Garden that was made in the past? No matter how we interpret the elements of the story (symbolic or literal), they still form a sequence that moves forward in time up to Abraham who we know to have been a literal man in the past.


Exodus 6 verses 6-8. Behold the foundation stone the builders rejected this is it.:yo:. It fits into Breshit Chapter one . As I first studied it I saw a Chromosome in my minds eye. I then felt the presence of dwelling within the Lamb . Ani YHVH 23 words Ani YHVH 23 words Ani YHVH. The Human Genome Brother right there with YHVH being the Glue along with a little Bull. (Fertility). 46 plus 6 equals 52 plus unity is 53 EBEN. It is the first official introduction of the name YHVH to BNEY YISRAEL (Stones of Israel). It is the Foundation stone the builders rejected. It is Yeshuah. :pop2:Zechariah chapter 3. Tsemach is the function I identify with as my job. Count out Psalm 23 YHVH-YHVH is 53 go to Isiah 53 I will count again myself but I found a function of the 23 rd prime 83 in word count. I am pretty sure but will recheck what it is I did.I am still re assimilating everything. Its a daily task we all face.

I am completely convinced that the text of the Bible was designed by God, and that there are many legitmate patterns found as you described. But, and this is a big but, I also know that it requires a lot of care to discern between chance and design, significance and coincidence. I am particularly leary about "rules" like "adding one for unity" since that means I can pretty much "fudge the numbers" to make them fit any pattern I want, and it then becomes impossible to discern between chance and design.


Verses 6-8 Exodus 6 is made up of 7 verbs 1st person past tense. So in fact it is an end statement not a promise initialized but a promise fulfilled and recalled.


I don't understand your statement. The verbs are not accurately described as in the "1st person past tense." Let's start with the first two verbs in Exo 6.6:
Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out (v'hotseyti) from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out (v'hitsalti) of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

Those verbs are are properly classified as "hiphil waw consecutive perfect 1st person common singular." This is really important. The "waw consecutive perfect" is how things happening in the future are expressed in Hebrew. You are correct that the verb without the "waw consecutive" would be "past tense" (technically "perfect tense") but with the "waw consecutive" it indicates the future. This is common knowledge is not? For example, God used this exact form when He gave his promise to Abraham in Gen 17:6:
Genesis 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful (future tense), and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
So it seems like your idea that "it is an end statement not a promise initialized but a promise fulfilled and recalled" is not supported by the text.


After all is said and done it it this verse that is at the top of the verbal hebrew pyramid mixed in with breshit. ANI is the Eye of Taurus the Bull.

I would be interested to know how you could confirm that "ANI is they Eye of Taurus the Bull."


( Stars Matter they are roadsigns) Ani= 61 Isiah 61 is the Haftorah Jesus read in the synagogue. Perhaps it is the song of the Lamb eh ? Sure beats the campaign slogans. I didnt need a computer to do and recieve what I have done. Just a simple calculator. Not that your work isnt invaluable. It is renders computers useful like a cleaning of bitter waters. Thank you for you effort. :thumb: I am just saying where I am coming from . Hebrew is the divine code of genetics. All the laws of nature are in it you know that. Actual DNA are chemical words. God is a living God. The Stone EBEN is a living stone.53 is the 16 prime 2 to the 4th power . It is a Jerusalem cross , it is mutiplication through division. I might not be as neat and tidy as some but my words are fertile. No messy stall , no ox, no work being done. I hope you like this .I find it invigorating. Peace >christan
I think there is much to learn from relation of DNA and Hebrew and Gematria. But it will take a long time, since there is so much to learn. But the main thing is that God designed life with an "alphabet" and the idea of "alphabet" and Word go together, and God created all with His Living Word who identified Himself as Alpha Omega, so all reality is based on MEANING (semantics) which I find to be an utterly invigorating and astoudning revelation from the Bible.

Great chatting!

Richard

[basilfo]

2000 years is nothing . Short is an understatement for the time line of Creation. Take a look at some photos of the Giza and consider the Days of OLD.

Hi Christan,

I'm not going to comment on most of your post - I wouldn't know where to start. But I can't get that Twilight Zone theme out of my mind for some reason.

What we were dealing with in this thread is interpreting the Word of God based on its content using sound exegesis and hermeneutics, the writer's language, audience relevence, and letting Scripture interpret Scripture. If we use our own opinions, yes, we can interpret "things which are about to occur" as thousands of years off into the future.

An example for you Christan to show you how your interpretation breaks down:

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." 5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, who [was] above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders [be?"] 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who [was] above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that [it shall be] for a time, times, and half [a time;] and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these [things] shall be finished. 8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things?"] 9 And he said, "Go [your way,] Daniel, for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. 11 "And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 "Blessed [is] he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 "But you, go [your way] till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

Revelation 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, "See [that you do] not [do that.] For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Both these passages are prophesies about the 'end of the days' or 'time of the end'. (NOT the end of the world, BTW. There are no Scriptures that speak of the end of the world/planet.)

Daniel's vision was given in the 6th century BC. John's Revelation about 65-68AD. They both point to the end of the Old Covenant/temple worship age which was fully completed in 70AD.

Using your interpretation (2000 yrs is nothing), why the difference in instruction to 'seal' or not? They were only separated by 600 yrs or so.


Peace to you,
Dave

[Christan]

Hey I can feel the Love. As for verb tenses well , I experience things as a I was , I am , I will be kind of manner. So Richard in a sense I think the concept of future and past being tied together in verb speaks for itself. Dave Thanks for the reminder from Daniel. Dave consider me a bit like VOyager returning because my mind is full fo stuff that I havent all sorted out and I just gotta go with what flows.Not smoking anything:p
Our minds are meeting and sharing with our hearts intact how wonderful.!!!:) The past present and future are all kinda melding inside me at the moment. Didnt go to chul today I needed to talk to you folks. DO you guys use annointing oil. I made up some from the recipe . Man the smells kinda take you to another place.
Richard your wheels are totally ordered like your words and just about everything you do here. The Wheels I saw in my dream were in motion and there werent any words spoken to me in that one or for that matter any numbers. These werent the wheels in Ezekiels vision. They were in a separate room from all the hubbub around the throne. Not that that is not a nice place to be but having your mind in motion 24/7 hurts. Do you know what I mean ? I would love to get back to that place where I could be watching the wheels instead of being them.
I think things will be a little clearer once I finish my model of Noahs ark. 1/50 scale. I am building on the concept of finishing the thing to a cubit 1/50 being the width. I understand your caution about things. I hope you understand that most of what I discover is by intuition, hebrew prayer and chanting & then study. I assure you by the way you recieved me we will wash each others feet the way each one particular way each one of us does so, I sense it. This Ark project I am doing because these days are like the days of the FLood. And HAmas is the word used for what makind was doing that caused God to bring it on. I will also be building a model of the temple. All of these things as tools for growth. But the thing is that they are more than that . It seems what ever I do or say as long as it is loving turns into a good work. Hey guys try factoring your daily age like I am doing regularly. It has its own rewards. How about doing it for the next week and comparing notes on how each daily factors show up if at all in your walk? Try doing your loved ones too I treasure that simple task. Its like sealing each day up. Peace Christan

[Christan]

I bought a new copy of Driver ad Briggs Hebrew lexicon recently . The page opened to Noah. I was relieved and feel the need to chant this parshah for the next week . BTW has any read Samson Raphael Hirches full commentary on the five books. It is awesome. Peace Christan

[Christan]

I bought a new copy of Driver ad Briggs Hebrew lexicon recently . The page opened to Noah. I was relieved and feel the need to chant this parshah for the next week . BTW has any read Samson Raphael Hirches full commentary on the five books. It is awesome. Peace Christan

[gilgal]

Coming back to preterism maybe taking Revelation is a bad example being filled with symbolism.

How about Daniel 7:


23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Was there a point of time when Rome ruled the world?

[basilfo]

Coming back to preterism maybe taking Revelation is a bad example being filled with symbolism.

How about Daniel 7:


23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Was there a point of time when Rome ruled the world?

Hi Gilgal,
Good question. And the answer is ABSOLUTELY. The 4 world empires covering the time between Daniel and Christ were considered to be ruling 'the entire world'. (See Dan 2:39 below)

Daniel is one of the key book for understanding eschatology, so I'm glad you brought it up. If we mess up Daniel, we'll have no chance at understanding Revelation.

The 4 parts of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Dan 2) and the 4 beasts of Daniel's vision (Dan 7) represent 4 world kingdoms that ran in succession. Let's look at Neb's statue first:

Dan 2:32 "This image's head [was] of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
33 "its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

Dan 2:37 "You, O king, [are] a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory;
38 "and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given [them] into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all -- you [are] this head of gold.

Head of gold = Babylonian empire

39 "But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours;

Chest/arms of silver = Medo-Persian empire

then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

belly/thighs of bronze = Grecian empire

(note that it 'shall rule over ALL THE EARTH'. I think you were questioning whether there was a time that Rome ruled the world. Each of these world empires or kingdoms ruled the entire world as they knew it. Dan 2:39 confirms this.)

40 "And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, [that kingdom] will break in pieces and crush all the others.
41 "Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay.
42 "And [as] the toes of the feet [were] partly of iron and partly of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.
43 "As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.

legs and feet of iron/clay = Roman empire

The Roman empire was by far the most powerful, most brutal, and most far reaching of the previous 3. (many want to insert a 5th kingdom (the Roman Catholic church or the EU even!) for the feet in order to extend the statue out past the Roman empire which ended. Neither of these is even close to being a world empire.

Also, I believe if you read v.40-43 carefully, you will not see 2 kingdoms, but one - the 4th. Verse 41 says "the kingdom" (referring to the kingdom of v. 40), not the NEXT kingdom or the 5th kingdom.)

44 "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
45 "Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold --

Things to note here:
1. The kingdom that God set up, never to be destroyed, happened "IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS". The kings of the world empires of the statue. The days of world empires are long gone. In those days, EVERYTHING was subject to the ruling empire. There has not been another world empire like the Roman empire since. While world superpower couontries exist today, the other nations are not subservient to that superpower, as all other nations under Rome were in their hayday. Individual nations are sovereign today - they were not under the Roman empire.

2. The stone (Christ and His kingdom) crushed or broke in pieces all the other kingdoms at the same time - in the days of these kings. How can that be if they did not exist at the same point in time? I believe the crushing was speaking of Christ's spiritual kingdom that He established with the New Covenant being far superior to all of man's world kingdoms which were based on carnal power, intimidation, military might, and greed.

Summary:
The 4 parts to the statue = the 4 world empires from Babylon to Rome. And Christ's kingdom was established "in the days of these kings" ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!") which 'crushed' or was far superior to our kingdoms based on man's fleshly concept of a kingdom.

To say that the stone has not crushed the kingdoms and that His Kingdom remains unestablished leaves a 2000 yr gap which is not supported by Scripture and causes all kinds of problems.

Feel free to correct anything here - this is just what I see as I study and search the Scriptures.....

Peace to you all,
Dave

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I bought a new copy of Driver ad Briggs Hebrew lexicon recently . The page opened to Noah. I was relieved and feel the need to chant this parshah for the next week . BTW has any read Samson Raphael Hirches full commentary on the five books. It is awesome. Peace Christan
I own a copy of Hirsch's commentary on the Torah, and have found it very useful at times. It's good to know how Jews who are steeped in Hebrew understand that book.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Gilgal,
Good question. And the answer is ABSOLUTELY. The 4 world empires covering the time between Daniel and Christ were considered to be ruling 'the entire world'. (See Dan 2:39 below)

<snip of excellent answer>

Summary:
The 4 parts to the statue = the 4 world empires from Babylon to Rome. And Christ's kingdom was established "in the days of these kings" ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand!") which 'crushed' or was far superior to our kingdoms based on man's fleshly concept of a kingdom.

To say that the stone has not crushed the kingdoms and that His Kingdom remains unestablished leaves a 2000 yr gap which is not supported by Scripture and causes all kinds of problems.

Feel free to correct anything here - this is just what I see as I study and search the Scriptures.....

Peace to you all,
Dave
Just wanted to give a "thumbs up" to your answer Basilfo.

:thumb:

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Was there a point of time when Rome ruled the world?
Are you interpreting "world" in the modern sense as the "whole globe" or in the Biblical sense as the inhabited world that encompassed Jerusalem and the surrounding nations?

[Christan]

I own a copy of Hirsch's commentary on the Torah, and have found it very useful at times. It's good to know how Jews who are steeped in Hebrew understand that book.Which leads us to a question you asked of how and why I mix. Its a rather long story but 33% of my community is hebrew. I had a dream with Moses at the wall (No Words) Just him ponting to the ground with his finger. I was in Hillel Hebrew school within a month at someone elses direction and temple on Hannuka. The GTU Has kind of made separation an illusion to a large extent here. Alot of congregations were at the Reformed groundbreaking of the new facility. Incedently the Guy who runs Hillels hebrew program is a convert by the name of Johan Grist. The book we used for learning was written by a guy named Jack Love. The Book Of Ruth was the primer. Awesome. Besides that they accept me as Christan. Cant beat that . :D

[basilfo]

Are you interpreting "world" in the modern sense as the "whole globe" or in the Biblical sense as the inhabited world that encompassed Jerusalem and the surrounding nations?

Hi Richard,
As you know, it doesn't matter how you or I (or Gilgal) interprets 'world'. We need to see how the writers and readers of the text understood and used the word.

This example may get off the track a bit, but we know that Paul considered Matt 24:14 fulfilled in the 1st century:

Matthew 24:14 - “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
Paul said this had happened in several different ways to several different audiences. There is no room for future fulfillment:

Romans 16:25-27. Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—— to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Romans 1:8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Col. 1:5-6. ...the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Col. 1:23. if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

IMO this shows that when they used 'world', they meant everyone in their world. I think Gilgal was implying that the Roman empire of the 1st century did not encompass the entire globe, but the futurist's scenario has the final kingdom doing just that. So, their view of the 'world' leader/antichrist could not have happened in the first century because that kingdom wasn't literally 'global'.

Please jump in Gilgal as I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is my guess as the intent behind your question.

Peace to you,
Dave

[gilgal]

Hi Richard,
As you know, it doesn't matter how you or I (or Gilgal) interprets 'world'. We need to see how the writers and readers of the text understood and used the word.

This example may get off the track a bit, but we know that Paul considered Matt 24:14 fulfilled in the 1st century:

Matthew 24:14 - 'And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.'
Paul said this had happened in several different ways to several different audiences. There is no room for future fulfillment:

Romans 16:25-27. Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—— to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Romans 1:8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Col. 1:5-6. ...the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Col. 1:23. if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

IMO this shows that when they used 'world', they meant everyone in their world. I think Gilgal was implying that the Roman empire of the 1st century did not encompass the entire globe, but the futurist's scenario has the final kingdom doing just that. So, their view of the 'world' leader/antichrist could not have happened in the first century because that kingdom wasn't literally 'global'.

Please jump in Gilgal as I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is my guess as the intent behind your question.

Peace to you,
Dave

OK thanks for your enlightenment. I don't know at this point what to say. I've been brought up by futurist church. My uncle is an orthodox bishop which probably in his lifetime did study the scriptures but usually prefers not to talk about it to avoid ( I guess ) controversy.

I agree that Christ's kingdom was mentioned to be within the believers' and when Jesus began his ministry he mentioned the kingdom of God is at hand. But as mentioned in Daniel 2 and 7 believers' didn't possess the kingdom. The world has never been handed over to the saints.



Daniel 2
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

It shall not be left to any other people. But none of the present Kings or rulers are Christian.

And what about the ten toes? Who are they? Did the Roman Empire exactly have ten Ceasars?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

OK thanks for your enlightenment. I don't know at this point what to say. I've been brought up by futurist church. My uncle is an orthodox bishop which probably in his lifetime did study the scriptures but usually prefers not to talk about it to avoid ( I guess ) controversy.

Hey there Gilgal,

The church we were raised in - that's a big part of what we beliive, isn't it? It takes a lot of work to reexamine beliefs that we have taken for granted for so many years.

I think the only hope is to look for the FOUDNATION of the systems. What are the foundaitonal verses that support the futurist teachings. And for that matter, what are the futurist teachings that are taught in your church? How do they understand the Olivet Discourse, and Daniel, and Revlation, and why?


I agree that Christ's kingdom was mentioned to be within the believers' and when Jesus began his ministry he mentioned the kingdom of God is at hand. But as mentioned in Daniel 2 and 7 believers' didn't possess the kingdom. The world has never been handed over to the saints.

Well, on the one hand, we know that we already have received the Kingdom, for we have been (past tense) translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son. So the question is "How should we understand Dan 2 and 7? Christ is the "stone cut without hands" and by His crucifixion and resurrection He gained the victory over death and the devil and He "overcame the WORLD" and and we overcome with Him through faith, and our life here is very short and then we reign forever with Him in a greater reality called "heaven." The focus on this physical plane of existence seems carnal to me, and it seems to miss the greater reality of what is really going on. We are born in carnal corruption, and raised spiritually incorruptable.

My point is that the futurist approach begins with certain "literalist" assumptions that may not accurately represent the actual meaning that God intended.

Richard

[eliyahu]

Just jumping in here. I am a futurist and I do not at all believe that the Antichrist's coming kingdom is universal or wholy global. Rome was described as "the whole earth" but was clearly not. It was using language to make a point much like we say "all" "everyone," etc. but not to be taken literally. Even Revelation describes the beast's empire being attacked by the giant army "from the east." That huge army was not his own. Daniel even describes that the final scene will have a world powerful antichrist who has war with enemies. It is not scriptural either in the old test or the new to expect a completely world dominating figure. He will apparently, though, have those aspirations.

[Christan]

I am wondering how all of the descriptions of the Beast can be applied to what is actually happening today. In the summer of 03 I had a dream with the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill .It opened up and a liquid terminator was sitting on a throne in the middle of it & had a red swastika on its left arm.
It seems to me that the world is mystified by Arnold being the gubernator. Bush Sr seems to really be an admirer and Arnold seems to be showing up in lots of places. Such as Gordon Browns installation. From what I can see the world admires him and the Image he portrays. I have seen the footage of him as a young man speakign of Hitler. I think the guy is a monster and I think the Jews are quietly horrified as well. Peace Christan

[gilgal]

Guys. Go for Ron Paul!
Despite the harassment and the media's ignoring of Ron, he's patient and straight.

Whether you're a futurist or preterist, how does Revelation 12 fit in? Is it a summary of the Gospel? If the rest of the book is futuristic that chapter certainly goes back to history.

[Christan]

Guys. Go for Ron Paul!
Despite the harassment and the media's ignoring of Ron, he's patient and straight.

Whether you're a futurist or preterist, how does Revelation 12 fit in? Is it a summary of the Gospel? If the rest of the book is futuristic that chapter certainly goes back to history. Ok I have had 2 others tell me that. Have you dont much research into the man ? I am personally on overload and am weary of quearies LOL. To tell the truth it is intuitive hunch that 66% of the system is corrupt and the heavens are going to announce the return of Meshiach . How would Paul fit into that scenario? I was kind of hoping for something stellar to brighten up the skies at night. Call it wishful working (Prayer) but that is why I am making wooden stars with salvaged lumber. Its my contribution to the effort. It seem to me if folks spent more time being respectfully artistic with thier hands wilst they pray things are much more likely to come together sooner. Well back to the twighlight zone !!! Peace Christan

[Christan]

Just jumping in here. I am a futurist and I do not at all believe that the Antichrist's coming kingdom is universal or wholy global. Rome was described as "the whole earth" but was clearly not. It was using language to make a point much like we say "all" "everyone," etc. but not to be taken literally. Even Revelation describes the beast's empire being attacked by the giant army "from the east." That huge army was not his own. Daniel even describes that the final scene will have a world powerful antichrist who has war with enemies. It is not scriptural either in the old test or the new to expect a completely world dominating figure. He will apparently, though, have those aspirations. Tell you what. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could just govern themselves . I know that isnt likely but my personal aspirations involve organic farming and animal husbandry. Its my understanding tha a man who serves the Lord with his hands and is reluctant to go to war is much more likely to be successful when he has to. I am really into putting myself into the mindset of the founding fathers and what they would do in the present .

[basilfo]

Just jumping in here. I am a futurist and I do not at all believe that the Antichrist's coming kingdom is universal or wholy global. ..........He will apparently, though, have those aspirations.

Hi eliyahu,
You are saying that 'the antichrist' and last days are yet future, but the apostles said the last days and end of the age were occuring in their time.

Heb 1:1,2, 1 Peter 4:7, 1 Cor 10:11, Rev 1:1-3, Acts 2:16, 1 John 2:18, Matt 16:27,28, Matt 24:34 to name a few.

When you look these (and all the other ref's by the apostles) you will find that they do not agree with your interp that the end of the age was 2000 yrs out in the future to them. You both can't be right. With all due respect, eliyahu, I'm going with what the apostles said.

Peace to you all,
Dave

[gilgal]

Hi eliyahu,
You are saying that 'the antichrist' and last days are yet future, but the apostles said the last days and end of the age were occuring in their time.

Heb 1:1,2, 1 Peter 4:7, 1 Cor 10:11, Rev 1:1-3, Acts 2:16, 1 John 2:18, Matt 16:27,28, Matt 24:34 to name a few.

When you look these (and all the other ref's by the apostles) you will find that they do not agree with your interp that the end of the age was 2000 yrs out in the future to them. You both can't be right. With all due respect, eliyahu, I'm going with what the apostles said.

Peace to you all,
Dave

The end of the age doesn't exist in the King James Bible. The king James says the end of the world.

People take note that the bible versions play a big role in our understanding of doctrines, prophecies ...

[gilgal]

For the sake of clearing it out. Hebrews 1:1,2 makes no mention of "end of the age".


Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 Peter 4
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Corinthians 10
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (3 apostles saw Jesus Transfiguration the following chapter)

The one that has credential proof is the last passage:

Matthew 24
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

After all God is a just God and never lets the wicked go unpunished.

I wonder if these things were occurring in the book of Acts? Can anyone point out the prophecies of Jesus and it's fulfillments in the book of Acts? Maybe Luke wrote Acts for that purpose?

[Brother Les]

gilgal
I wonder if these things were occurring in the book of Acts? Can anyone point out the prophecies of Jesus and it's fulfillments in the book of Acts? Maybe Luke wrote Acts for that purpose?start a thread.

Brother Les

[Brother Les]

Elias was to come before the Messiah.

Jesus said that John The Baptist was Elias.

Elias (John) said that the Kingdom was 'at hand'.

The Kingdom and Judgment would come at the same time, at the End Of The Age.

John told the Scribes and Pharesees, 'Who warned you to 'flee' from The Wrath To Come.....

Jesus said that when The Gospel was to be preached to the Whole World, then The End would come.

Paul said that The Gospel has been Preached to The Whole World and to every Creature under the sun....

Peter knew that he was preaching in 'The Last Days' and he even goes as far as saying, "little Children it is The Last Hour"....

Jesus told His followers that many would come and preach about him and The End...But Do Not listen to 'Them' Until The Time of The End...

Why did Peter, Paul and James, start preaching about The End of The Age when they did. Because jesus said the He would send them a Helper that would teach the All things and bring to hem rememberance of all the He had said....


They knew what they were talking about in The First Century, about The First Century or they 'all', were and are false prophets and none of wheat they said should be believed.....

Do we look for a physical kingdom as the nation of Israel was looking for, for The Land of Judeah and 'missed' the Messiah. (Man does not alter Gods plan) As in today, many look for a physical 'kingdom' and miss the Spiritual Kingdom and the Judgment that has came with it.


Brother Les

[Christan]

I am inclined towards your statement . Of course there will be a time when Spirit and matter harmonize . When I was sittting outside of the Temple a few weeks back I heard YHVH Echad in a mellow tone. Kaballistically speaking the Name has to become one before the Meshiach returns . Alot of this is so daunting for the mathematician in us or the word smith for that matter. Sometimes it is the Spirit that must guide us to realizations. Peace.Christan

[Brother Les]

Christan
I am inclined towards your statement . Of course there will be a time when Spirit and matter harmonize

Did not that happen 'At The Resurrection of The Dead', 2,000 years ago?




Sometimes it is the Spirit that must guide us to realizations.
Peace.Christan


By your statement, you do seem to realise that there is already a harmony of The Physical and Spiritual. As The Spiritual guides, The Physical. Elias did not say that The Kingdom was 'At Hand' to his first Century listeners and mean that it 'May be At Hand'....or 'maybe not'...at hand....John The Baptist (Elias) was certain the The Wrath was to come on The Generation. And the Consemation of The Mosaic Age would be seen by The Generation (40year generation) that he was speaking to. 'The Israel' of God was always 'a' Rement of The Whole, not 'all' of the whole....If you do not worship and 'see' God in Spirit and Truth...you will never be able to 'see' or 'Worship God'....I am not telling you anything that you do not already know.

Blessings
Brother Les

[Christan]

What comes to mind is Gold tried in a furnace. In Egyptian Neb is Gold and Lord. Nubia is the area of the gold mines . Perhaps Solomon's. Nabi in hebrew is a prophet. I see Prophecy being refined thorugh the six days of creation chant. I have a habit singing Breshit on sundays. It is very grounding.
In all honesty I am not experiecning total unification with the The Spirtual Heavenly ways. I am working towards them. I have to lead by example but by doing so I must keep at a pace that those who I am responsible can follow.That implies compromise Brother Les not perfection;). I look forward to a day when the Lords Rule is Complete and there is Peace On Earth. Peace Christan

[gilgal]

Upon a closer look at Matthew 24 it mentions not the end of the age in the King James but the end of the world. I think there are many passages where the end of the world from the King James in translated as the end of the age.

Does Matthew 24 support preterism? Well...

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That didn't happen.
Though I may not be in complete agreement with the futurists I think I'm somewhere in between preterists and futurists.

It's going to take time till I study things one by one.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Upon a closer look at Matthew 24 it mentions not the end of the age in the King James but the end of the world. I think there are many passages where the end of the world from the King James in translated as the end of the age.


Exactly correct Giglal. It was the end of the Old Covenant Age and the birth of the New Covenant Messianic Age.


Does Matthew 24 support preterism? Well...

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That didn't happen.
Though I may not be in complete agreement with the futurists I think I'm somewhere in between preterists and futurists.

It's going to take time till I study things one by one.
Great! I would be happy to chat about any issues you are working on. Personally, I think we can be very sure it happened for many reasons. First, Jesus Christ the Son of God said it was going to happen during the lifetime of the generation He was speaking to. Second, Daniel was fulfilled at that time, and in Daniel 7:13 we see Christ ascending to the throne of God in the clouds of Heaven. Third, Revelation was fulfilled at that time, and in Rev 14 we see Christ judging Jerusalem with a sickle from the clouds. So all the pieces fit together extremely well. The real problem is that we have uncritically accepted the false hyper-literal futurist intepretations that ignore the Bible's own definitions of these symbols.

It will be good to work on this with you,

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Sorry for being away a bit, folks. I experienced a computer crash and it took some time to recover. I tried to repair it without erasing my hard-drive, but I had no choice. :smash: I hate computers. :lol: For those using Quicken software, be warned! That program is subject to a lot of phishing. I've trashed it! It's a good thing I only used for records and not actually retrieving information from my financial accounts.

Anyways, Gigal I understand your feeling and how things seem as though the passage in Matthew 24 didn't happen. But we say that as though our generation hasn't witnessed "the signs"

Read the verse again, please. It says, "Then they will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven....."

Now I used to interpret this as meaning Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven IS the sign. But that is not what the verse says. Matthew 24 is saying that the signs which they witness proves the fact that the promised Kingdom was coming in power, but would only be witnessed by signs. Remember, Jesus said in his earthly ministry that the Kingdom would not come in such a way that one could behold it through the eyes, or that one could actually point to it in a way that someone shouts, "Behold! The Kingdom is over there!" Rather, He gave spiritual explanations of the Kingdom, explaining the Kingdom many times using parables. Why parables? Parables would not be needed if the Kingdom was a physical Kingdom, yet the Church if indeed a physical Kingdom. What does this mean? It means that the Church is the spiritual Kingdom promised, and we have a High Priest who offered Himself perpetually, and His rule is forever and ever and ever. The confusion comes from people who feel that Christ's rule is physical, but it is not. It is through the Church, but not through an earthly throne or temple. Review the parables He spoke and you'll see that what I'm explaining is true.

1. Mustard seed: Faith which abounds.
2. Seeds planted: spreading the word of faith and of God
3. Strong house: practicing true rightesouness and not hypocrysy
4. 10 Virgins: Those waiting Patiently for the Kingdom (Church) to be established as perpetual and abiding; on the days of the Apostles, it was still being built
5. 10 Minas: selling all that they had to share fruits of love and bring in more into the Kingdom

There are more parables, but as you can see, all the above attributes are not literal aspects of the Kingdom EXCEPT through the spiritual truth. What I mean is, there are not literally 10 virgins awaiting the Kingdom but the virgins are a figure for someone who has dedicated himself to Christ and is awaiting His Kingdom.....which is now established. The seeds are not literal seeds planted, but is a figure applied to the spreading of Christianity. All of these figures are applied to the Church.

Therefore, seeing and understanding the spiritual truths of the Church, I wonder why it is, or what is it, that Futurist's are waiting for? I wonder why millions of Dispensational Chrisitians are waiting for a Kingdom, not realizing that the Kingdom which they are in was the promised Israel of God? Believe me, I know the answer to that, but it's better for them to find this answer themselves; only God's Spirit can provide the answer, as He did with me.

Now about His coming in the clouds, this phrase is repeated in the Old Testament as a figure. "Clouds" in this sense represent destruction and wrath, and not literal H20 clouds. I call the Futurist expectation of Jesus returning in the clouds as "Cloud surfing". That is not what Jesus meant. He said that they would see the "Signs" of the Son of Man coming in clouds [of judgment and reward]. Jesus said the same thing to Pontius when He said, "Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and sitting at the Right Hand of the Father...."

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Jeremiah 4:13
“ Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!”

See the figurative meaning of this? Jeremiah prophesied the same vision just like John in Revelation. Yet Jeremiah's vision was fulfilled when the King of Babylon destroyed Jeruselam on the first destruction of the temple. This destruction was alluded to "coming in the clouds". The same is applied to Matthew 24.

God bless.

Joe

[gilgal]

Sorry for being away a bit, folks. I experienced a computer crash and it took some time to recover. I tried to repair it without erasing my hard-drive, but I had no choice. :smash: I hate computers. :lol: For those using Quicken software, be warned! That program is subject to a lot of phishing. I've trashed it! It's a good thing I only used for records and not actually retrieving information from my financial accounts.

Anyways, Gigal I understand your feeling and how things seem as though the passage in Matthew 24 didn't happen. But we say that as though our generation hasn't witnessed "the signs"

Read the verse again, please. It says, "Then they will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven....."

Now I used to interpret this as meaning Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven IS the sign. But that is not what the verse says. Matthew 24 is saying that the signs which they witness proves the fact that the promised Kingdom was coming in power, but would only be witnessed by signs. Remember, Jesus said in his earthly ministry that the Kingdom would not come in such a way that one could behold it through the eyes, or that one could actually point to it in a way that someone shouts, "Behold! The Kingdom is over there!" Rather, He gave spiritual explanations of the Kingdom, explaining the Kingdom many times using parables. Why parables? Parables would not be needed if the Kingdom was a physical Kingdom, yet the Church if indeed a physical Kingdom. What does this mean? It means that the Church is the spiritual Kingdom promised, and we have a High Priest who offered Himself perpetually, and His rule is forever and ever and ever. The confusion comes from people who feel that Christ's rule is physical, but it is not. It is through the Church, but not through an earthly throne or temple. Review the parables He spoke and you'll see that what I'm explaining is true.

1. Mustard seed: Faith which abounds.
2. Seeds planted: spreading the word of faith and of God
3. Strong house: practicing true rightesouness and not hypocrysy
4. 10 Virgins: Those waiting Patiently for the Kingdom (Church) to be established as perpetual and abiding; on the days of the Apostles, it was still being built
5. 10 Minas: selling all that they had to share fruits of love and bring in more into the Kingdom

There are more parables, but as you can see, all the above attributes are not literal aspects of the Kingdom EXCEPT through the spiritual truth. What I mean is, there are not literally 10 virgins awaiting the Kingdom but the virgins are a figure for someone who has dedicated himself to Christ and is awaiting His Kingdom.....which is now established. The seeds are not literal seeds planted, but is a figure applied to the spreading of Christianity. All of these figures are applied to the Church.

Therefore, seeing and understanding the spiritual truths of the Church, I wonder why it is, or what is it, that Futurist's are waiting for? I wonder why millions of Dispensational Chrisitians are waiting for a Kingdom, not realizing that the Kingdom which they are in was the promised Israel of God? Believe me, I know the answer to that, but it's better for them to find this answer themselves; only God's Spirit can provide the answer, as He did with me.

Now about His coming in the clouds, this phrase is repeated in the Old Testament as a figure. "Clouds" in this sense represent destruction and wrath, and not literal H20 clouds. I call the Futurist expectation of Jesus returning in the clouds as "Cloud surfing". That is not what Jesus meant. He said that they would see the "Signs" of the Son of Man coming in clouds [of judgment and reward]. Jesus said the same thing to Pontius when He said, "Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and sitting at the Right Hand of the Father...."

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.'

Jeremiah 4:13
' Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!'

See the figurative meaning of this? Jeremiah prophesied the same vision just like John in Revelation. Yet Jeremiah's vision was fulfilled when the King of Babylon destroyed Jeruselam on the first destruction of the temple. This destruction was alluded to "coming in the clouds". The same is applied to Matthew 24.

God bless.

Joe

Well even Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged that there was a king higher than himself. But the apostles asked Jesus when he will come to establish his kingdom. And Jesus' reply wasn't, "It's here, in you already", but rather "It's not up to you...to know the time.."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sorry for being away a bit, folks. I experienced a computer crash and it took some time to recover. I tried to repair it without erasing my hard-drive, but I had no choice. :smash: I hate computers. :lol: For those using Quicken software, be warned! That program is subject to a lot of phishing. I've trashed it! It's a good thing I only used for records and not actually retrieving information from my financial accounts.
Hey there Joe! Great to see you bro. You've been missed.

Sorry to hear about your computer woes. The machines certainly are a mixed blessing. It's a love/hate relationship.


Anyways, Gigal I understand your feeling and how things seem as though the passage in Matthew 24 didn't happen. But we say that as though our generation hasn't witnessed "the signs"

Read the verse again, please. It says, "Then they will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven....."

Now I used to interpret this as meaning Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven IS the sign. But that is not what the verse says. Matthew 24 is saying that the signs which they witness proves the fact that the promised Kingdom was coming in power, but would only be witnessed by signs. Remember, Jesus said in his earthly ministry that the Kingdom would not come in such a way that one could behold it through the eyes, or that one could actually point to it in a way that someone shouts, "Behold! The Kingdom is over there!" Rather, He gave spiritual explanations of the Kingdom, explaining the Kingdom many times using parables. Why parables? Parables would not be needed if the Kingdom was a physical Kingdom, yet the Church if indeed a physical Kingdom. What does this mean? It means that the Church is the spiritual Kingdom promised, and we have a High Priest who offered Himself perpetually, and His rule is forever and ever and ever. The confusion comes from people who feel that Christ's rule is physical, but it is not. It is through the Church, but not through an earthly throne or temple. Review the parables He spoke and you'll see that what I'm explaining is true.

1. Mustard seed: Faith which abounds.
2. Seeds planted: spreading the word of faith and of God
3. Strong house: practicing true rightesouness and not hypocrysy
4. 10 Virgins: Those waiting Patiently for the Kingdom (Church) to be established as perpetual and abiding; on the days of the Apostles, it was still being built
5. 10 Minas: selling all that they had to share fruits of love and bring in more into the Kingdom

There are more parables, but as you can see, all the above attributes are not literal aspects of the Kingdom EXCEPT through the spiritual truth. What I mean is, there are not literally 10 virgins awaiting the Kingdom but the virgins are a figure for someone who has dedicated himself to Christ and is awaiting His Kingdom.....which is now established. The seeds are not literal seeds planted, but is a figure applied to the spreading of Christianity. All of these figures are applied to the Church.

Therefore, seeing and understanding the spiritual truths of the Church, I wonder why it is, or what is it, that Futurist's are waiting for? I wonder why millions of Dispensational Chrisitians are waiting for a Kingdom, not realizing that the Kingdom which they are in was the promised Israel of God? Believe me, I know the answer to that, but it's better for them to find this answer themselves; only God's Spirit can provide the answer, as He did with me.

Now about His coming in the clouds, this phrase is repeated in the Old Testament as a figure. "Clouds" in this sense represent destruction and wrath, and not literal H20 clouds. I call the Futurist expectation of Jesus returning in the clouds as "Cloud surfing". That is not what Jesus meant. He said that they would see the "Signs" of the Son of Man coming in clouds [of judgment and reward]. Jesus said the same thing to Pontius when He said, "Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and sitting at the Right Hand of the Father...."

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, 'It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.'

Jeremiah 4:13
' Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!'

See the figurative meaning of this? Jeremiah prophesied the same vision just like John in Revelation. Yet Jeremiah's vision was fulfilled when the King of Babylon destroyed Jeruselam on the first destruction of the temple. This destruction was alluded to "coming in the clouds". The same is applied to Matthew 24.

God bless.

Joe
Excellent points. Thanks Joe!

Richard

[TheForgiven]

Hey there Joe! Great to see you bro. You've been missed.

Sorry to hear about your computer woes. The machines certainly are a mixed blessing. It's a love/hate relationship.

Thanks brother Richard. Yea, I agree with you about man and computers; it's a love / hate relationship. :lol: But we learn to get along. Funny how I remember surfing the web years ago was relatively safe, with very little threats. Yet today, you have to spend money on all sorts of programs, and have them upgraded every year, always around post Tax-Refund season. :lol: I'm beginning to see a pattern. All the available computer software reminds me of the old mechanic who created problems on your car in order to offer you his repair service. I think, IMO, that computer software companies are doing the same thing; they use computers to hunt down and find weaknesses, and then offer a cure. :lol: You know they don't call me the conspiracy theorists at work for nothing.

But glad to be back.

Joe

[basilfo]

Well even Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged that there was a king higher than himself. But the apostles asked Jesus when he will come to establish his kingdom. And Jesus' reply wasn't, "It's here, in you already", but rather "It's not up to you...to know the time.."

Hi Gilgal,
I know what your saying, but I don't agree that simply because Jesus did not tell them they were wrong, it automatically means they were right.
And they didn't ask 'when he will come to establish his kingdom'. They asked when He would restore the kingdom TO ISRAEL. Here is the text:

Acts 1:4 And being assembled together with [them,] He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," [He said,] "you have heard from Me;
5 "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem and wait for 'the Promise' (the Holy Spirit) which would come upon them "not many days from now".

Then the disciples, showing they did not have the wisdom bestowed by the Holy Spirit yet, asked if He would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time (meaning when the Holy Spirit came).

Jesus didn't even dignify their question, but rather chastised them a bit. Perhaps He knew the HS would straighten them out shortly ;). And the proof that there would be no restoration of the kingdom to Israel is that when the Holy Spirit did come to them at Pentecost and they began teaching without error, writing the Word of God, there was not a single mention again of "restoring the kingdom to Israel".

Quite the contrary - explaining that man's relationship with God would be personal and spiritual under the New Covenant through Christ, without regard to heritage, open to all believers - not earthly and carnal and national as under the Old Covenant.

Paul bends over backwards to break the thinking of nationality, heritage, and lineage as defining factors under the New Covenant. It's a common theme in many of his letters, and basically what the whole book of Hebrews is about. Then so many are teaching today to bring it all back into relevence. I don't get it.

Peace to you,
Dave

(Hey welcome back Joe, my friend. I pray you are well brother.)

[TheForgiven]

Well even Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged that there was a king higher than himself. But the apostles asked Jesus when he will come to establish his kingdom. And Jesus' reply wasn't, "It's here, in you already", but rather "It's not up to you...to know the time.."

Yes, that is correct about Nebuchadnezzar, who later admitted that there was a King higher than him, after having been rebuked by the hand of God, through which he fulfilled the prophet Isaiah's vision:


Isaiah 14:
3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:


“ How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden city ceased!
5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, ‘Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.’
9 “ Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:

‘ Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer [metophor for king] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:

‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “ All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”

22 “ For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,

“ And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. 23 “ I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,
And marshes of muddy water;
I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts.

All of Isaiah chapter 14 was about God's wrath against the king of Babylon by God entering into clouds of judgment. And Biblically speaking, how does God pour out His judgment upon nations? By using other nations; that's a Biblical fact swelling with history. Jerusalem was judged by the clouds of Babylon, and Babylon in turn was judged by the Medes and Persians, and them by the mighty and powerful king of Greece (Alexander the Great), and them by the rise of a vast and mighty Empire, the Romans, and last but certainly not least, the Romans were judged by the clouds of Christ and His Church. And who was stuck in the middle of all this? Israel, and for a great reason. God has sustained His Israel, His chosen, weeding out the undesirables, and establishing his chosen throughout all Israel's generations, eventually leading to the "End" of the temple system, giving birth to the ever lasting Kingdom of God, wherein houses the family of the righteous, the temple of Christ (our bodies), and the ever-flowing nourishment of the living waters (The Holy Spirit).

Jerusalem was judged by the clouds of Babylon on the first attack, and again in 70 AD by the Romans.

I also failed to mention the signs seen over Jerusalem, as recorded by Josephus.

Now picture yourself standing at a distance in 70 AD, when all of a sudden, you look into the sky and see Angels and Chariots of fire flying high above the city. Would you not believe you were witnessing the Kingdom of God? Picture also a bright light shining through the thick dark clouds, and shining down upon the temple prior to its destruction, and a thunderous voice that all heard which said, "Let us leave this place!" Would you not think that the Kingdom of God was coming? Be that as it may, I did not include those written testimonies for the simple fact that many Dispensation believers willfully reject a historical document because it wasn't included in the Bible; and why should it be? Josephus was not a written Biblical account of the Christ, but was an account of what happened before Jerusalem fell, and after Jerusalem fell.

People today see the weather changing, year in and year out. With each rise of the summers heat, or the fall of the winters cold, we hear, "The end of the world is near! The end is near!" With the first launch of a scud missile against geographical Israel, we hear, "The end of the world is just around the corner; Christ is almost here!" Man I heard these screams back in the early 1980's. Guess what? We're still here. Yet the signs I mentioned, which are being used today, are weak; I mean really weak, and are nothing in comparison to the first century. Not even WWII contained more signs that what happened in the first century. Nations were at war with each other! Demons were being cast out by the hundreds! Christians were dying by the thousands! People were being healed of paralysis! Some were dying a miraculous Martyrs death (Polycarp)! Yet in all this, how was it that man didn't see the Kingdom of Christ advancing against the nations? Yet in our day, our generation, the slightest twitch of CNN or Fox News leads to new books on the shelf discussing the New Age movement, the coming AC, and the European Union. :confused2: I don't get it.

I wasn't around in the first century, but I've done enough research to know that some mighty fantastic events took place which far outweighs any time since the days of Joan of Arch and the Spanish Inquisition. And think at it like this. Can you name any horrific day in history, or even in our preset time / decade, that was worse than what happened to Japan, when they were bombed and the world witnessed the birth of the most destructive man-made weapon ever to exist? Yet even after that time, did the world end? Of course not? When God destroyed the world in the days of Noah, was it destroyed for good? No, it was purged of evil. The likeness was repeated through Christ, who became death for us, so that we through Him might live unto God. Jerusalem, the former world of heaven, was destroyed by fire, and the rudiments and all its principals were set ablaze and vanished with a mighty roar; the false Jerusalem had been destroyed, and the heavenly Jerusalem outshined the former, having removed the "Shadow" to give way to the "reality".

What I mean is this Gigal. The world as they knew it was coming to an end. God was getting ready to establish the world forever, by removing the works of Satan, and replacing it with the works of God. Our days are no where near as bad as they; I know because you and I discuss these things without fear of persecution or death. Yet if we lived in the first century, we would have to live underground, or hide in homes to discuss the Kingdom. Therefore, knowing the past, I can honestly say with confidence that I'm not disappointed. Praise the God of heaven who rains righteousness on both sinner and saint. We are the plants, the earth is the field, but both receive the rains. But with each generation, God sends forth His reapers to purge the field of its infested weeds; this we call "clouds of judgment". That is also a testifying fact of His reign and lordship, for all nations are watched and judged under His hand. Even though we don't see Him, those of us with Faith know that all things happen by His permission; if not, then the King would not let it happen.

So then, man can either choose to abide within the New Jerusalem, or remain outside the New Jerusalem. You and I abide through the gates which never close, but all others remain outside the city. It's our job to lead them within the city, to springs of living waters, and be proactive in building the family; we're not supposed to be waiting, and that is what many are doing.

Sorry for the length my friend. I tried to provide the best answer I know how. Some, such as Basilfo, can provide answers more logical and shorter than me. But I do try. ;)

God bless you all.

Joe