When Christians can fight?

[yeshua_seven]

In my discussions with a Muslim, we've come to the point where I need to share about when Christians can fight and when they can't. I'm trying to explain the difference between the church and the state, and how the church is not allowed to retaliate, but in the state Christians are allowed to "retaliate" in war that America declares on others.

I went with a friend to another church once, and the pastor mentioned something about fighting is forbidden in ministry when we are attacked because of our faith in Christ, but fighting is okay in self-defense and other times. I believe now that he is right in general, but I haven't reached the point where I can explain it very well.

I just wrote a paragraph in the e-mail response to the Muslim, but I'm not satisfied with the paragraph because it doesn't look convincing. It looks like I'm trying to work my way out of a corner.

I said Christians are not allowed to retalitate but are to forgive our enemies. He then mentioned how America didn't do that, but have struck back. I then thought of the Christians in the army who are fighting which I KNOW is okay when fighting for a country, but I KNOW when the church is attacked for our faith in Christ, we are never allowed to fight back and/or defend ourself. I am able to reconcile this in my mind, but I don't know how to reconcile it in words when I go into details (if that makes any sense).

Please help me explain this in a convincing way.

[yeshua_seven]

Here are two scenarios:

Muslims burn down a church. The church cannot retaliate and go burn down their mosque.



Muslims attack America. America declares war and retaliates against the enemy. Christians in the American army are allowed to go and fight against the enemy.


Now the question is: How are these two scenarious reconciled with the teachings of Jesus on forgiveness and no retaliation.

[yeshua_seven]

I believe God answered my prayer and I came up with the following in my response to this Somali. Let me know what you guys think. Do you agree or disagree, and if you disagree, share your thoughts.
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In your last response you reminded me that I need to clarify the context by which I was speaking on the matter of fighting. I am usually thinking from the context of religous persecution, and I falsely assumed you would interpret my words on the same context. I will clarify this now. When Christians are persecuted and attacked because of our faith in Christ, then we are not allowed to fight back. We can run away, but not fight back. If Muslims attack a church, Christians can not retaliate. If Muslims kill an apostate because they left Islam to become a Christian, we are not allowed to retaliate. When I say "retaliate" and "fight" I am speaking of physical acts. Christians are supposed to "retaliate" and "fight back" with spiritual acts. Spiritual acts are things like praying for them, speaking the Word of God to them, and forgiving them.

As for Christians who are police officers, if a criminal they are trying to apprehend pulls a gun on the officer, that Christian police officer is allowed to defend his or herself. If a Christian is in the army, and that nation goes to war, those Christians are allowed to be soldiers and fight. When Christians are attacked because of their faith in Christ, they are NOT allowed to retaliate or fight back physically. Christians do get attacked all the time in our world. Attacked by witches, warlocks, Hindus, Buddhists, Communists, Muslims, etc. Of course people of other religions get attacked to, so I'm not saying that Christians are the only ones to be attacked. We get persecuted often times in our ministries. I could give countless stories of situations in Islamic nations. Some times Christians are teaching people English, and some Islamic group spreads the lie that they are forcing children to become Christian, so that Islamic group attacks the Christians with guns. Other lies are spread as well about Christians paying people to become Christian, or Christians raping Muslim women, etc. Does this mean that Christians never do such things? By no means, for we are all human, but MOST of the time those accusations are lies because of the hatred in the hearts of these Islamic militants. It is in these cases when Christians can not get together and retaliate.

There is a seperation of church and state. Nations have the right to defend themselves, but when the church is attacked because of our faith in Christ, we do not have the right to defend ourselves using violent means. In Islam, there is no such thing as the seperation of "mosque and state" for the state is to be ruled by Sharia Law. Am I correct?

As for those hundreds of passages with all the violence and violent imagery that you sent me as an attachment, that is easy to answer. In respect to the violent imagery, much of that is poetic imagery. Off the top of my head, one passage speaks of stripping Israel (referred to as a she) and revealing her nakedness, and another passage speaks of lifting up [her] skirt and showing her shame (again the "her" is referring to Israel). It's all poetic imagery. As for the warfare that the Israelites were involved in, just like today, nations are allowed to defend themselves, including Israel. Israel was God's nation, and it was a theocracy because God gave them direct commands to go and fight against people. Today, God doesn't give any direct commands to nations to go and attack anybody. The Israelites were God's people and He used them as His instrument in sending His judgment upon the people. Those times are much different from modern times. In those days each nation had their gods, and it was a battle between "our god(s) and your god(s)."

In the Bible, God can use anybody to fulfull His purpose. He used Assyria to punish the northern kingdom of Israel and He used Bablyon to punish the southern kingdom of Judah. He used Israel to punish many nations as well. Today, God still uses nations to punish nations. It is Satan and the sin of mankind that desires to do such wicked things to others, but God has the power, authority, and sovereighty to allow or not allow such things to happen. God had the power to stop the World Trade Centers from being attacked or at least from collapsing, but God had a purpose and He ALLOWED the attack to be successful. Using Bible language, we can say that God destroyed the World Trade Centers.

[Brother Les]

Luk 22:35 ¶ And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.


Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.



What's the sword for?

Brother Les

[derekkye]

When you know God you come to learn the fight is all His. Not by might, nor by strength, but by God's spirit - man need not fight. Those believing they have to are misled.