Noah Ark

[TheForgiven]

Hi Victor and Richard,

Nice to take a break from Eschatology. :lol: I'm still reading a very lenghty article from WsTruce, but it's interesting.

Anyways, what do you guys think about the latest results of the "Possible" discovery of Noah's ark in the mountains of Iran? Here's a pic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/images/060705-noahs-ark_big.jpg

http://archives.zinester.com/13183/99500/148163_NoahArkRockPoint.jpg

http://archives.zinester.com/13183/99500/148166_060705-noahs-ark_170.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://archives.zinester.com/13183/99500/148163_NoahArkRockPoint.jpg&imgrefurl=http://archives.zinester.com/13183/99500.html&h=672&w=504&sz=132&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=8VBwAZJszBPeLM:&tbnh=138&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNoah%2527s%2BArk%2BIran%26svnum%3D10% 26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Tell me what you guys think. I've always felt that the Mountain in Turkey, which is called Ararat, is not the correct location. For one that mountain is not old enough, only about 2,500 years old. Two, there's small Babylonian evidense which suggests that the mountains in Iran, during the days of the King of Babylon were connected to the Mountains of Ararat. And Ararat, as we all know, means "Field of Lava" or "Mountains of Lava". This stretch which leads all the way to a current day region called Al-Cudi, which in ancient times under non-Jewish tradition, was considered to be the Mountains of Armenia. And that, according to some Historians, was the ancient location of the Mountains of Ararat.

Any ideas friend? It'd be awesome to find the most ancient Biblical account of the flood, giving oodles of testimonial proof of the Bible. Samples are currently still being carbon dated, though much of what's left, assuming this is the Ark, has turned into fossil's. So carbon dating would not be very acurate.

Joe

[Rose]

Hi Joe,

Very interesting Pictures, especially the small one that looks like part of a door or hatch.

It does look like petrified wood, which they will be able to verify from testing, so at least we'll know if the structure was once made of wood.

It would indeed be very cool to find "Noah's Ark". What a testimony to the world.

Rose

[TheForgiven]

Here's more information to consider. I'll paste a small portion of the article, and also provide you with the link. I think they're on to something here! :thumb:


High above the ark suspect, the team also found wood splinters and broken pottery shards under snow and rock at the 15,300 foot level. It showed evidence that ancients had thought this an important worship site for hundreds—if not thousands—of years. The landing location would also be an unusually hospitable place to live. The team notes that every ecosystem helpful to humans and the animals is reachable within a 25-mile radius of the ark's location.



Cornuke initially became involved in the search for the ark after meeting Apollo 15, moon walking astronaut Jim Irwin. In the 1980s Cornuke participated with Irwin in several searches on Mount Ararat in Turkey but was disappointed with the results. After several years of frustrating expeditions, Cornuke started looking elsewhere for the ark.



Cornuke found clues in the Bible that the ark might be on a mountain other than the famed Mount Ararat of Turkey. Cornuke's observation was based on the Genesis 11 account that says descendants of Noah came to the Mesopotamian valley from the east. According to Cornuke, that would put the Biblical mountains of Ararat somewhere in the northern reaches of Iran. He also cited ancient historians such as Nicholas of Damascus and Flavius Josephus who wrote just before and after Christ that timbers of the ark had survived in what would today be the higher mountains of Iran.


Although his research is by far the most definitive ever, Dr. Cornuke is not the first to suggest Noah's Ark came to rest in Iran rather than Turkey. In 1943 an army observer named Ed Davis said he saw the ark on a high mountain in Iran. Sergeant Davis was a road construction engineer in Iran during World War II, building army highways from the Persian Gulf to the Caspian Sea. During his tour of duty there, some Iranian friends told Davis of the ark and led him to the site. After the war, Sgt. Davis passed a lie detector test affirming his testimony about actually seeing timbers from an ark-like object high in the mountains of Iran.

Notice Cornuke uses Genesis chapter 11 as the possible indicator for the Ancient mountains of lava (Ararat). Here's the reading:


Genesis 11:
1 Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there.

Shinar is present day Iraq, but in the ancient days was called the Mesopotamia! I have not read what Josephus wrote regarding the Ark, but I'm going to research this as well. And if my geography is correct, and Iraq was formerly the Mesopotamia, and if Turkey represents the correct location of Ararat, then this means they would have traveled Sout and not quite East. For Turkey lies North, North West of Iraq. I think Cornuke may be right, and he's not the first to suggest this.

It appears that the only reason the two twin mountains in Turkey were later named "Ararat" is because of their size. However, because of their great hieght, I have little reason to believe anyone could have survived at such a high altitude. Plus, those mountains are not that old.

Therefore, it's very possible that the latest experts have been wrong indeed, and were looking in the wrong location. They seemed to have failed to do some good old fashioned research. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I'm almost certain that this may be it.

What do you all think?

Joe

[Brother Les]

Maybe I missed something? It would have been nice to have something in the pictures of a known scale, ie, a man standing there, ect. Pictures can say a thousand words, of something that is really not there.

Just a thought.


Brother Les

[Victor]

Hi Joe,

I remain very skeptical about this kind of discoveries. I've heard quite a few different stories about people finding "Noah's Ark" throughout my life. And then there are those who have "found chariot wheels" in the Red Sea. There are many stories like that.

We should test all things. That was my concern for example in the case of the seal newly found in Jerusalem (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399). If they come in support of the Bible, great. But they are not really necessary. Sola Scriptura!

Victor

[CWH]

I saw an interesting detailed article about the search for the Noah's Ark. That should answer many questions about the Noah's Ark in this thread.

http://noahsarksearch.com/ararat.htm

Happy Blessed Reading.

[kathryn]

I have always been taught that Noah sent out the raven, followed by the 3 releases of the Dove. Not so! The Raven continued to travel to and fro until the earth was declared dry. AND there appears to be a 57 day period, when Noah remained on the ark, after the earth was declared dry.
Has anyone made any studies on the term "to and fro"?
Or the significance of the 57 days?

[NumberX]

I have always been reading about the story happened in another world then the material world. Taking notice of all measurements and dates in the story in the Bible, I read a professor's work of how to draw a pyramid with the tebah, with a flat top. On the highest point, above the mountains, the flat top is 49 el above the earth. And many more details are used from the story.

So instead of what you see on the photo above, should it be in the material world, I think of a floating pyramid above a sea of time, or above sands of time.

My professor wrote that the rabbis said that during the flood the tebah shook and shaked so much that it nearly capsised.

[NumberX]

I have always been taught that Noah sent out the raven, followed by the 3 releases of the Dove. Not so! The Raven continued to travel to and fro until the earth was declared dry. AND there appears to be a 57 day period, when Noah remained on the ark, after the earth was declared dry.
Has anyone made any studies on the term "to and fro"?
Or the significance of the 57 days?

Kathryn,
Concerning the raven, I know of no study of "to and for" but I gues the english expression "Raven's knowledge" has to do with it: Seeing everyting, noticing everything.

Tell me about your view on the 57 days. I read that Noach with the 57 days was 365 days in the tebah, those are the days of the sun-calendar-year..

[NumberX]

Hi Joe,

I remain very skeptical about this kind of discoveries. I've heard quite a few different stories about people finding "Noah's Ark" throughout my life. And then there are those who have "found chariot wheels" in the Red Sea. There are many stories like that.

We should test all things. ... Sola Scriptura!

Victor

Hi Victor,

Let's try to find out where the ark of Noah is in The Word..
Thebah means at first 'word' and also 'ark'. You could wonder why they choose 'ark'. No wonder they can't find it lol.
The measures are given by God: 50 width, 300 long and 30 high, that's the word 'LaSHoN' meaning language, tongue, with what we speak.
So what was Noah building?
At 600 years in his life his thebah is finished, he has build 120 years on it. We see it's the 1 of the 1:4, when the 1 is finished the mabul comes.
Now in the material world building an ark on dry land is foolish isn't it? All kinds of persons coming to opposed you, that's normal. Now building with the God-given language-numbers like this website does, aren't all kinds of persons coming to oppose too? Haven't there been asking for what purpose are you doing it? I would say it rejoices my heart.
And didn't have everybody had to build their words and language from his/her early age..?
Except Noah, he was already 480 years old (lol, should you look at it in the material world, which is obviously not how you should look at it).
The story of Noah is around us and in us: Around us: Other persons saying we have to look it up in the material world, I will show you some photo's, while you think hmm I don't really go for that. In us: We have to do this and that first before we can make time for learning about the words in The Word.

Let's learn some more about it:
Now let's look at the 30, the Lamed, the hight of the thebah
With the lamed the word lashon begins
One of the meanings of Lamed is learning. The word pupil, disciple, scholar is Thalmid 400-30-40-4 and the root of the word is 30-40-4: Lamed. So the Lamed is here the first measure for connecting this material world with above, with heaven, with the other world. We learn(ed) things at school, that's necessary and useful for the earth, the horizontal, but the real learning explained here in the story of Noah is for the vertical, God gives the measure. Further in the story is it not so that there come immediately to the highest point, no the tebah with it's lashon, starts it's journey at a low starting point to get higher and higher.

There is so much more to tell about the Story of Noah in this way. Like does the tebah look like an pyramid? See my contribution here http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1597&page=2

[Rose]

Here's the latest news on Noah's Ark (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/):

http://www.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/Noah%27s%20Ark_doomsday_604x341.jpg

[CWH]

Here's the latest news on Noah's Ark (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/):

http://www.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/Noah%27s%20Ark_doomsday_604x341.jpg

Great News Rose! That should silent skeptics like Victor. I always believe Noah's Ark is still in Mount Ararat.

More video on Noah's Ark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1Q1lDNwRU&feature=related

Many Blessings.

[Brother Les]

The video said what was found was a wooden structure inside a cave measuring 11 meters long and 2 meters high in 2007.
I don't see how that translates into the 'ark' of the Bible?

[Victor]

Hi Victor,

Let's try to find out where the ark of Noah is in The Word..
Thebah means at first 'word' and also 'ark'. You could wonder why they choose 'ark'. No wonder they can't find it lol.
The measures are given by God: 50 width, 300 long and 30 high, that's the word 'LaSHoN' meaning language, tongue, with what we speak.
So what was Noah building?
At 600 years in his life his thebah is finished, he has build 120 years on it. We see it's the 1 of the 1:4, when the 1 is finished the mabul comes.
Now in the material world building an ark on dry land is foolish isn't it? All kinds of persons coming to opposed you, that's normal. Now building with the God-given language-numbers like this website does, aren't all kinds of persons coming to oppose too? Haven't there been asking for what purpose are you doing it? I would say it rejoices my heart.
And didn't have everybody had to build their words and language from his/her early age..?
Except Noah, he was already 480 years old (lol, should you look at it in the material world, which is obviously not how you should look at it).
The story of Noah is around us and in us: Around us: Other persons saying we have to look it up in the material world, I will show you some photo's, while you think hmm I don't really go for that. In us: We have to do this and that first before we can make time for learning about the words in The Word.

Let's learn some more about it:
Now let's look at the 30, the Lamed, the hight of the thebah
With the lamed the word lashon begins
One of the meanings of Lamed is learning. The word pupil, disciple, scholar is Thalmid 400-30-40-4 and the root of the word is 30-40-4: Lamed. So the Lamed is here the first measure for connecting this material world with above, with heaven, with the other world. We learn(ed) things at school, that's necessary and useful for the earth, the horizontal, but the real learning explained here in the story of Noah is for the vertical, God gives the measure. Further in the story is it not so that there come immediately to the highest point, no the tebah with it's lashon, starts it's journey at a low starting point to get higher and higher.

There is so much more to tell about the Story of Noah in this way. Like does the tebah look like an pyramid? See my contribution here http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1597&page=2

I'm sorry, NumberX, but this is over my head. I don't understand.

[Victor]

Great News Rose! That should silent skeptics like Victor. I always believe Noah's Ark is still in Mount Ararat.

More video on Noah's Ark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1Q1lDNwRU&feature=related

Many Blessings.

It seems that you don't understand my point.

I won't rush to believe in one more of the numerous "expeditions" that have been going on for decades claiming that they have found "Noah's Ark". We cannot even be sure if it still exists. The Flood is both historical and theological, but it doesn't mean we must find an ark "on the mountains of Ararat."

If anyone ever finds an "ark," this should be backed up by overwhelmingly strong, serious, evidence. The Bible commands us to be skeptics. "Prove all things." (1Th 5:21)

A couple of articles on the subject:


Latest Ark finding is a fake

(http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/latest_ark_finding_is_a_fake.php)
Noah's Ark found - AGAIN? (http://thepostanything.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978201133&grpId=3659174697244816)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It seems that you don't understand my point.

I won't rush to believe in one more of the numerous "expeditions" that have been going on for decades claiming that they have found "Noah's Ark". We cannot even be sure if it still exists. The Flood is both historical and theological, but it doesn't mean we must find an ark "on the mountains of Ararat."

If anyone ever finds an "ark," this should be backed up by overwhelmingly strong, serious, evidence. The Bible commands us to be skeptics. "Prove all things." (1Th 5:21)

A couple of articles on the subject:


Latest Ark finding is a fake

(http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/latest_ark_finding_is_a_fake.php)
Noah's Ark found - AGAIN? (http://thepostanything.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978201133&grpId=3659174697244816)


Thanks for the links Victor.

It is very interesting that the first link connects Noah's Ark with the Caner deceptions. I just blogged about what I think of this whole situation:

Live from Liberty University: Dr. Ergun Caner discovers Noah's Ark! (http://www.biblewheel.com/blog/index.php/2010/04/30/live-from-liberty-university-dr-ergun-caner-discovers-noahs-ark/)

[CWH]

It seems that you don't understand my point.

I won't rush to believe in one more of the numerous "expeditions" that have been going on for decades claiming that they have found "Noah's Ark". We cannot even be sure if it still exists. The Flood is both historical and theological, but it doesn't mean we must find an ark "on the mountains of Ararat."

If anyone ever finds an "ark," this should be backed up by overwhelmingly strong, serious, evidence. The Bible commands us to be skeptics. "Prove all things." (1Th 5:21)

A couple of articles on the subject:


Latest Ark finding is a fake

(http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/latest_ark_finding_is_a_fake.php)
Noah's Ark found - AGAIN? (http://thepostanything.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978201133&grpId=3659174697244816)


Of course, there is a possibility of a hoax but the undeniable fact is that the Noah's ark rested on Mount Ararat. Moses wrote that account in Genesis in about BC 1500. which means the ark should still be there during his time. I don't expect Noah's ark to be in perfect petrified state after so long but definitely not in sawdust. And how could petrified wood be found on top of Mount Ararat at 13,000 feet? The wood should be from cypress. If the Bible said it rested on Mount Ararat, it must be there somewhere:

Genesis 8:3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

These should be the features one should look out for regarding the Noah's ark:

Genesis 6:14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Of course, there is a possibility of a hoax but the undeniable fact is that the Noah's ark rested on Mount Ararat. Moses wrote that account in Genesis in about BC 1500. which means the ark should still be there during his time. I don't expect Noah's ark to be in perfect petrified state after so long but definitely not in sawdust. And how could petrified wood be found on top of Mount Ararat at 13,000 feet? The wood should be from cypress. If the Bible said it rested on Mount Ararat, it must be there somewhere:

Have you never heard that wooden structures can rot and completely disappear?

I see no basis for your assertion that it "must be there somewhere." Where are the thousands of other wooden structures built since that time? Almost all of them have decayed into nothing.

Richard

[CWH]

Have you never heard that wooden structures can rot and completely disappear?

I see no basis for your assertion that it "must be there somewhere." Where are the thousands of other wooden structures built since that time? Almost all of them have decayed into nothing.

Richard

I see no reason why wood from Noah's ark cannot last so long considering the cld and dry condition on top of Mount Ararat. Wooden items and clothings and mummies have been found well preserved in 4,000 years old pyramids due to the arid desert condition and the pyramid's tightly closed structure. Any proof that Noah's ark has decayed into nothing ? or is this your assumption? If the Bible said that Noah's ark rested in Mount Ararat, it must be there, no doubt about it.

Do you know why God asked Noah to coat the rooms of the ark with pitch? So as to make it water tight and to preserve the wood!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation

"treatment of wood has been practised for almost as long as the use of wood itself. Some accounts reach back to the beginning of recorded history. For example the Bible in Genesis, 6:13-14 "And God said unto Noah... make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch." There are also records of wood preservation reaching back to ancient Greece during Alexander the Great's rule, where bridge wood was soaked in olive oil. The Romans protected their ship hulls by brushing the wood with tar."

Many Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I see no reason why wood from Noah's ark cannot last so long considering the cld and dry condition on top of Mount Ararat.
I never said it was impossible. You said the ark MUST still exist. That is a false statement. I was merely correcting your error. It is possible that it no longer exists. Indeed, it is most likely that it does not exist since almost all wooden artifacts that old have completely decayed.

[CWH]

To me RAM, you are just assuming that the wood from Noah's ark has rotted to nothing. And I am providing explanations that the wood from Noah's ark may not have rotted. I am merely correcting your assumption. Petrified wood a few thousand years old have been found on Mount Ararat decades ago, where does it come from? Presuming that the mentioned petrified wood from Mount Ararat was from old tree trunk which managed to not "decayed to nothing", what makes you think that the preserved wood from Noah's ark must have "decayed to nothing"?

Peace and Blessings.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

To me RAM, you are just assuming that the wood from Noah's ark has rotted to nothing. And I am providing explanations that the wood from Noah's ark may not have rotted. I am merely correcting your assumption.
I never "assumed" or "asserted" that Noah's ark rotted to nothing. I merely said that was "possible" and in my opinion "likely."

You really need to start reading more carefully.



Petrified wood a few thousand years old have been found on Mount Ararat decades ago, where does it come from? Presuming that the mentioned petrified wood from Mount Ararat was from old tree trunk which managed to not "decayed to nothing", what makes you think that the preserved wood from Noah's ark must have "decayed to nothing"?

Peace and Blessings.
Please cite the source of the discovery of the petrified wood. There have been countless lies and fabrications about Noah's ark on Ararat. How do you know that this was not one of them?

And again, I never said it "must" have decayed. I simply said that was the most likely scenario, given the fact that most wood from that time period has decayed into nothing.

And again again - you really need to start reading more carefully. You are continuously responding to things that I did not say. It gets rather tedious.

[NumberX]

RAM, I noticed it too. He is wrongly summarizing posts from you and from others. And wrongly summarizing Biblical numbers too, this is a part of his post, this are his words:

"These should be the features one should look out for regarding the Noah's ark:
Genesis 6:14 "... 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high..."

Now let's look at the biblical words:
Those numbers in Gen. 6:15 are 300 'emah', 50 'emah' and 30 'emah'.
Tebah means in first place 'word' and in second place 'arc'. A translation is always further from the truth.
Only with 300 and 50 and 30 we read the word 'LaSHoN' in the story, what means 'language', and this is how it is meant to be, to search in language with tebah meaning word. Searching for an arc in the material world is not how it is meant to be in the way of excavations, but reseaching the word in the language of The Word is what it is about. This kind of re-search is constantly present in the material world. Just as you do the research (too), RAM.

The Cheow Wee Hock person likes blurring. I prove this with numbers :thumb: The above mentioned numbers are not to be changed by anyone. And not at all for research with excavations. When you understand it right, (articles of) excavations are foolish and we can laugh about it.

[CWH]

Hi NumberX,

Just to clarify, the verses I quoted were from the NIV Bible. There may be some numerology here but I am not very sure of the meaning, I am not a numerologist like you.

Genesis 6:14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

There are always 2 sides to a coin. Scriptures can be interpreted symbolically and can also be interpreted literally and in your case numerologically. Just like the 1,000 years (millennium) in Revelation, it can be interpreted literally 1,000 years or symbolically 40 years depending on how you want to believe and apply it. I don't know what the 1,000 here means numerologically, can you enlighten me?

And how do you convince us that what you interpreted in the scriptures numerologically is correct?

Many Blessings.

[NumberX]

Dear CWH,

Ah there are Bible translations who give info like that. In my Bible translation they kept the original numbers. Translations we see as further from the real deal. You say you are not sure of the meaning of the numbers, well I am. This bible story can not be taken literally like with excavations. There are many like this which can not be taken literally like with excavations and performance, who gave you that idea?
And numerology is not the right word. It is the Hebrew language that is connected to these numbers. We are talking about the Hebrew language here, not a seperated designation.

Now you like to draw my attention to another part of the Bible. But I don't go for that. I stick to the subject.

Because the word 'language' made out of the numbers of the language itself, language which connects with the word tebah in the same language which means 'word', it is like this.

One can ask him/herself why is the sequence in Gen. 6:15 another sequence then the word LaSHoN has? An explanation I have read about is that the first sign (letter) of a hebrew word (or word-stem, don't remember) is seen as vertically connecting heaven with earth. In this occasion it is the Lamed in the hebrew signs, which coincidentally is the one that reaches most high. LaSHoN, language.

Did you learn from it? Or can we be sure you remain unsure and later on you like to support an earthly excavationed arc again and do not connect with the hebrew language where the site mainly is about. I understand it draws attention from all kinds of languages :)

[CWH]

Obviously, you have not convince me that what you interpreted regarding the scripture based on Hebrew and numerology is correct. I am still looking for a literal Noah's ark which the Bible said rested on Mount Ararat ....or do you not believe what the Bible said?

I am asking a valid question and I hope you could help me understand, what does 1,000 mean based on your Hebrew numerology (or whatever you call it) because I want to understand what millennium means in Revelation.

Thanks and Many Blessings to you.

[NumberX]

We do not seperate hebrew from numerology. Mount Ararat is only a small part of the story, which is true also off course, in Biblical terms.

Keep on searching for it litirally hihi and I will keep having a laugh about an article about excavations.

In the meantime I search for a date. Ah here it is: Yesterday it was the 17th of the 2nd month.

[CWH]

Well, let's see who will have the last laugh hihi :D

Care to answer my question regarding the meaning of 1000 (years) in Revelation using your method? If you can't, just say so, it's ok with me.

Many Blessings.

[NumberX]

I told you before I stick to the subject.

[CWH]

Hi NumberX,

I use numerology differently from the way you use it. In the case of Noah's ark, I see God giving instructions to man on how to make a perfect stable wooden ark that could withstand the raging sea of the great flood. A stable wooden ark made from cypress with the length of about 450 feet, the width should be 1/6 of the length (75/450) and the height should be 1/10 of the length (45/450). All the compartments of the ark (and the whole ark) should be pitched inside and out to make it water-proof. It should only have 3 decks.

Genesis 6:14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

To use your words, "The above mentioned numbers are not to be changed by anyone".:winking0071:

Many Blessings.

[NumberX]

I don't think you are worth replying on. Go make your time useful and go search for an ark in publications of excavations :)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Dear CWH,

Ah there are Bible translations who give info like that. In my Bible translation they kept the original numbers. Translations we see as further from the real deal. You say you are not sure of the meaning of the numbers, well I am. This bible story can not be taken literally like with excavations. There are many like this which can not be taken literally like with excavations and performance, who gave you that idea?
And numerology is not the right word. It is the Hebrew language that is connected to these numbers. We are talking about the Hebrew language here, not a seperated designation.

Now you like to draw my attention to another part of the Bible. But I don't go for that. I stick to the subject.

Because the word 'language' made out of the numbers of the language itself, language which connects with the word tebah in the same language which means 'word', it is like this.

One can ask him/herself why is the sequence in Gen. 6:15 another sequence then the word LaSHoN has? An explanation I have read about is that the first sign (letter) of a hebrew word (or word-stem, don't remember) is seen as vertically connecting heaven with earth. In this occasion it is the Lamed in the hebrew signs, which coincidentally is the one that reaches most high. LaSHoN, language.

Did you learn from it? Or can we be sure you remain unsure and later on you like to support an earthly excavationed arc again and do not connect with the hebrew language where the site mainly is about. I understand it draws attention from all kinds of languages :)
Very interesting connections.

Tebah (Ark, Vessel) does indeed mean "word" in modern Hebrew. Furthermore, it is directly connected to the name of the Second Letter, Bet, which means "house" -

The Ark (HaTebah) = 412 = Bet (House)

And Bet is itself the symbol of the Word, the title of the Second Person of the Trinity. Words are "containers" that define things by saying what is "in" and what is "out." I have written about that here (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Bet_Division.asp) and here (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/bet_word_prophecy.asp).

The dimensions 30, 300, 50 do indeed correspond to the values of Lamed, Shin, Nun which spell Lashan (tongue).

So the connections run deep here.

[NumberX]

Lashan is tongue too yes and where do we then think about in the N.T.? Speaking, expressing yourself, in tongues..?

[Victor]

Now you like to draw my attention to another part of the Bible. But I don't go for that. I stick to the subject.

Because the word 'language' made out of the numbers of the language itself, language which connects with the word tebah in the same language which means 'word', it is like this.

One can ask him/herself why is the sequence in Gen. 6:15 another sequence then the word LaSHoN has? An explanation I have read about is that the first sign (letter) of a hebrew word (or word-stem, don't remember) is seen as vertically connecting heaven with earth. In this occasion it is the Lamed in the hebrew signs, which coincidentally is the one that reaches most high. LaSHoN, language.



Very interesting connections.

Tebah (Ark, Vessel) does indeed mean "word" in modern Hebrew. Furthermore, it is directly connected to the name of the Second Letter, Bet, which means "house" -

The Ark (HaTebah) = 412 = Bet (House)

And Bet is itself the symbol of the Word, the title of the Second Person of the Trinity. Words are "containers" that define things by saying what is "in" and what is "out." I have written about that here (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Bet_Division.asp) and here (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/bet_word_prophecy.asp).

The dimensions 30, 300, 50 do indeed correspond to the values of Lamed, Shin, Nun which spell Lashan (tongue).

So the connections run deep here.

I was reading NumberX's posts on Tebah and didn't quite understand them, but things begin to get clearer now.

The Ark was a symbol of the Word. Tebah = Word. The Ark was a container just like a word is. Words are like houses - they contain meaning.

Words are linguistic signs. In Hebrew, sign is Oth, whose numerical value is 407. We have:


Ark (Tebah) = 407 = Sign (Oth)


Noah's Ark had three stories, just like the Cosmos had three levels - heaven, land and sea. As a "word/sign/house," the Ark contained a small transitional world - a microcosmos that carried the Adamic covenant order onto the new one. Genesis 8 narrates the new creation.

The concepts of Cosmos and Word are congruent. (Matthew 24:35) The Ark was thus both "cosmos" and "word." It is very interesting then to find that the measurements of the ark correspond to the gematria of tongue (lashon) and firmament (raqiya)! Psalm 19 says:
Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
The Ark speaks volumes. In fact, 450,000 cubic cubits! I'll write more as I find time.

[NumberX]

Great! Sign, Oth, means also planet right? Nasa searching for life on other planets is .. yeah what to think about that
Words create also. They are on the base of let's say creating a sky scraper. And they create feelings, in ourselves and in others. And we think and dream in words. God created with words. Examples of Psa 19:4 can be found here (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1583)

Is there also a connection with tebah and aron? Both are translated by arc (too). Aron is like 'light-box'.
I already see one, written in psa 19:4 and 6.

When the arc (aron) starts to move something important happens and that is written in Num. 10:35-36. These verses are inclosed by two nun's that are written upside down. My professor has written about these two upside down nun's, if anyone likes to know I can look it up.

In the light of the topic where this is under - Current events - let's now all take a look at The Arc the Triomph (http://shanesthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/arc-de-triomphe.jpg). This one does not float very well, but we don't need to excavate something to see The Arc The Triomph do we?

[Victor]

The volume of the Ark is 300 x 50 x 30 cubic cubits, which is 450,000 and can thus be factorized into:


Ark's Volume = (15 + 15 + 15) x 10,000 cubic cubits


The measurements of the Ark appear in Genesis 6:15. So we have some connections between the Number 15 and the Ark's measurements.

Since these measurements also spell the letters of the word "tongue", I associated the tongue with Spoke 15. In James on Spoke 15 we learn about the correct use of our tongues. James 3:4 even compares the tongue to the helm of a great ship. This reminds me that the Ark probably didn't have a helm - it was a ship that was itself a "helm" controlled by the Almighty.

What does the Ark "speak"? It preaches the Gospel of Salvation. The Ark is a prophetic pre-image of baptism and our salvation in Christ. The Ark account in Genesis is then followed by the confusion of tongues.

In the NT there's a similar plot, but reversed. Acts 2 is Babel in reverse. Gentiles are not scattered but instead attracted to the Gospel, which is heard in their own tongues. When they hear the Word, they are baptized and saved.

[Victor]

I don't think you are worth replying on. Go make your time useful and go search for an ark in publications of excavations :)

Speaking of the tongue, NumberX, I think you could have shown a little more grace to brother Cheow. Maybe his comments were off mark somewhat but he is "worth replying on".

[CWH]

Speaking of the tongue, NumberX, I think you could have shown a little more grace to brother Cheow. Maybe his comments were off mark somewhat but he is "worth replying on".

Thanks Victor for your support.

It's ok, I don't expect everyone to like me in this forum as after all I don't talk in the same "frequency" as them.

God don't give specific instructions on how to built something unless there is significance in His instructions. I am very sure that if Noah did not follow those specifications given by God to build the Ark, the Ark would have been smash to pieces by the raging flood waters and the pounding rain. Many modern ships are also build based on such specifications to ensure stability... width 1/6 of the length, height 1/10 of the length etc. including the cubic volume. This show the wisdom of God. I believe that such instructions were not only based on scientific principles but it may also carry numerical codes and it would be best to leave it for numerology experts such as yourself Victor and RAM to dig them out. This goes for the meticulous instructions given by God in the building of His Temple not only to ensure structural stability but awaiting for someone to discover the numerological codes.

As for the Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat, it may have been disintegrated after so long or certain parts of the Ark may still be intact, no one is sure. But as Christians, we certainly should have the aspiration and support that the Ark still exist on Mount Ararat as that will prove to the world that what the Bible said is true. Things may take a few thousand years to be discovered, take for example, it took 2,200 years for the mausoleum and the terra cotta of the first Qin Emperor of China to be discovered. Therefore, that has been my hope and aspiration that one day, Noah's Ark will also be discovered as a witness to the world of the accuracy of biblical record.

Many Blessings.

[NumberX]

Speaking of the tongue, NumberX, I think you could have shown a little more grace to brother Cheow. Maybe his comments were off mark somewhat but he is "worth replying on".

Well you go ahead with replying on him I can see it has no sense. I see him more like a spirit that wanders around, that likes to change biblical words, is not able to learn and is not able to change point of view, as he says himself. Do we learn from him? Did he learn from us?
You by the way made an excellent post, we learn from each other. I know enough of the subject now.

[CWH]

Well you go ahead with replying on him I can see it has no sense. I see him more like a spirit that wanders around, that likes to change biblical words, is not able to learn and is not able to change point of view, as he says himself. Do we learn from him? Did he learn from us?
You by the way made an excellent post, we learn from each other. I know enough of the subject now.

Learning is an on-going process. Yes, I do learn from others in this forum. Even if what is said is disagreeable or make no sense does not mean it is useless. This forum comprises of people from other theological positions; there are futurists, partial futurists, Full preterists, partial preterists, historists and I believe idealists also. What is disagreeable to you or make no sense to you does not mean it is disagreeable and non-sense to others. This is what makes this forum lively. Even comments made that seem disagreeable and non-sense to me, I do put aside as it may come useful to me one day in my understanding of the scriptures, who knows? As I have said, we should be very glad if 50% of what we said comes true. To say that one is 100% right and others are totally wrong is not only disrespectful of the view of others but arrogant. I have nothing against you NumberX but that arrogance that you have portrayed. Everybody has the right to believe what he wants to believe, hear what he wants to hear, say what he wants to say, it's perfectly ok with me. I am just merely putting my ideas across in the pursuit to understand the scriptures for myself and for others. One day we may be inspired and reflect, "Oh yes, I remember Richard and Rose said this, or Victor said this" and so on.

Many Blessings.

[NumberX]

As a last thing I would like to add to the subject, Victor, is giving the connection with the physical world. That makes sense in this way. Our tongue, language and words have to do with water. Our words move through a watery surrounding when we speak. Our tongue lies in a watery surrounding. Our mouth (and throat) is naturally watered by saliva, spittle. So also nature comes along helping it explain to us, where we can find it. And sometimes we like to stick our tongue out of the water to someone :)

Now let's look at The Arc The Triomphe (http://lloydi.com/travel-writing/wallpaper/paris/arc-de-triomphe_1by7.jpg) again, this time with lights coming towards us. This one you can make your wall-paper and the numbers connected to it are 1024x768.

I hope you readers enjoyed it as much as I did, think the Noah-story is really wonder-full.

[Victor]

As a last thing I would like to add to the subject, Victor, is giving the connection with the physical world. That makes sense in this way. Our tongue, language and words have to do with water. Our words move through a watery surrounding when we speak. Our tongue lies in a watery surrounding. Our mouth (and throat) is naturally watered by saliva, spittle. So also nature comes along helping it explain to us, where we can find it. And sometimes we like to stick our tongue out of the water to someone :)


Good comparison! The Ark was surrounded by waters just like the tongue is surrounded by waters!

And the Ark floated upon the waters below and had the waters from heaven pouring over it. Similarly our tongues have waters above and below.

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Continuing with the temple imagery that I mentioned in the other post, the tongue can be seen as a firmament (curtain, wall) dividing between the waters above and below, just like in Day 2 of Creation. The waters below picture the netherworld (throat, pit) and the waters above are like a "heaven" (in Portuguese this upper part of the mouth is called "mouth's sky/heaven") with the head picturing God's abode. No wonder then that the Hebrew words for tongue and firmament share the same numerical value!


Lashon (Tongue) = 380 = Firmament (Raqiya)


Lashon is written Lamed + Shin Nun, which makes me think of the Staff (Lamed) between the Teeth (Shin). When we pronounce the letter L (Lamed), our tongues point upward to "heaven" just like the letter Lamed points upward to God.


LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. - Psa 119:89

[NumberX]

Very good comparison of you too, Victor. Gives to think that in Dutch this upper part of the mouth is called gehemelte and verhemelte, ver-hemel-te, with hemel = heaven in it too! I wonder who gave it this name.

[kathryn]

I am facinated by the depth of meaning behind the ark, and the connection to the tongue etc. I would be interested, Number X and Victor, in how you interpret the flood and the ark coming to rest on the mountains of Ararat, in light of this. Also...do you think the following verses in Revelation are connected in some way?
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Thanks so much for your facinating input! Kathryn

[kathryn]

Hello again Richard...I'm sorry to jump threads with this, but wasnt sure how else to do it. Yesterday I asked you if the "kole/voice" was connected somehow to the "et Kol". From your explanation, I can't see any logical connection either, but after reading the posts on the ark today, the niggle has returned:) I'm sure this is an excellent example of wishful thinking , but I hope you will indulge me here a bit. Don't despair; my father would emerge from sessions of trying to transport me out of the realm of abstract thinking and into the logical, practically in tears.
If the ark can be seen as a container/word and the dimensions, the tongue as a wall dividing the depths and the heavenlies and scripture says that the fountains of the depths were broken up and the floodgates of heaven opened , my brain is still trying to connect the voice/kole to the et Kol. It would seem as though the et Kol..everything He made, was profoundly moved during the flood...and now with this understanding of the ark/word/tongue etc...is the voice/kole...somewhere in there?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello again Richard...I'm sorry to jump threads with this, but wasnt sure how else to do it. Yesterday I asked you if the "kole/voice" was connected somehow to the "et Kol". From your explanation, I can't see any logical connection either, but after reading the posts on the ark today, the niggle has returned:) I'm sure this is an excellent example of wishful thinking , but I hope you will indulge me here a bit. Don't despair; my father would emerge from sessions of trying to transport me out of the realm of abstract thinking and into the logical, practically in tears.
If the ark can be seen as a container/word and the dimensions, the tongue as a wall dividing the depths and the heavenlies and scripture says that the fountains of the depths were broken up and the floodgates of heaven opened , my brain is still trying to connect the voice/kole to the et Kol. It would seem as though the et Kol..everything He made, was profoundly moved during the flood...and now with this understanding of the ark/word/tongue etc...is the voice/kole...somewhere in there?
Hey there Kathryn,

Far be it from me to attempt "transport you out of the realm of abstract thinking!" That is my native domain! :p

And I think it is obvious that there is a super-strong connection between God's Voice (Qol) which created everything (Et-Kol) - that is obvious from the text. But is there a connection based on the phonetic similarity between Qol and Kol? That seems to be your question.

I think your "niggle" (which I usually refer to a mental "tickle" but niggle works quite well!) is probably based on the truth of the connection between God's Qol and the creation of Kol, but I still don't have any sense that there is a connection between those two words.

But I could be missing something of course, so I'll put this on the "back burner" and let you know if it ever starts to boil.

Richard

[kathryn]

Hee hee! Thanks Richard...and I think you're right about my niggle. It was when I read Victor's post connecting the Lamed to the tongue that got to me, as it was the only seeming connection between the two words...and after reading the posts this morning..suddenly saw that one similarity accentuated:p

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Very good comparison of you too, Victor. Gives to think that in Dutch this upper part of the mouth is called verhemelte, ver-hemel-te, with hemel = heaven in it too! I wonder who gave it this name.
That's interesting. The German for heaven is himmel - very similar. But the German for palate is gaumen which seems completely unrelated.

[kathryn]

me again Richard...I see we were both replying at the same time. In case you missed my comment on the tongue, above your last reply....just wanted to ask if that could be a possible connector between the two words...as very tenuous as it might seem???:p

[kathryn]

I keep seeing this giant tongue lying right in the middle of the Et Kol...har!

[kathryn]

...and now I'm visualizing it as the Kol infinity symbol, darting around the BW of the word:p:p:p

[kathryn]

Just thought of something...isn't the Kol infinity symbol linked to rightly dividing the word? And if so...wouldn't this also link to the lamed/tongue which also is dividing the "firmament"?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there Kathryn,

You've been busy!


Just thought of something...isn't the Kol infinity symbol linked to rightly dividing the word? And if so...wouldn't this also link to the lamed/tongue which also is dividing the "firmament"?
Yep - I write about that in my article about 1 Timothy (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Kaph_Crown.asp) on Spoke 11 (the Wheel is divided bilaterally between Spokes 11 & 12).

http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Kaph_RightlyDividing.gif

Your connection with Lamed (Spoke 12) is right on! It divides the Word (Wheel) along with Kaph (Spoke 11).


...and now I'm visualizing it as the Kol infinity symbol, darting around the BW of the word:p:p:p

Excellent! That is a very easy visualization (see above). Triple :p:p:p
back atchya!


I keep seeing this giant tongue lying right in the middle of the Et Kol...har!

We've got a lot of tongues sticking out in this post. :p:p:p


me again Richard...I see we were both replying at the same time. In case you missed my comment on the tongue, above your last reply....just wanted to ask if that could be a possible connector between the two words...as very tenuous as it might seem???:p

Didn't miss it! Great insights.

I'll be back in a few hours. I'm heading out for a long distance bike ride.

Many blessings in Christ,

Richard

[NumberX]

I am facinated by the depth of meaning behind the ark, and the connection to the tongue etc. I would be interested, Number X and Victor, in how you interpret the flood and the ark coming to rest on the mountains of Ararat, in light of this. Also...do you think the following verses in Revelation are connected in some way?
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Thanks so much for your facinating input! Kathryn

Ararat. That's where many mainly think about, are interested in. As if the Mabul (flood) is all about Ararat. In the light of the above I don't know what to say about Ararat.

Rev. 12:15-16 might be very well referring to the Mabul.

[NumberX]

About LaSHoN: God gave the word 'LaSHoN' tongue/language in the numbers of the word. That means He stresses here the numbers, the gematria. Like in English the word to tell and to count upon, Dutch, French, German also have their words to tell which says in fact counting numbers.

"I am going to tell you" is in fact "I am going to calculate you something". I think it derives from Genesis, where God gave the gematria for tongue/language.

[kathryn]

Thanks NumberX. I was interested in Ararat primarily because of its meaning: "the curse reversed: precipitation of curse."
And your comment on the tongue brings up my next question...does the gematria for the voice/Kole and the Et Kol bring up a connection we could explore, as the Lamed does between them?

[gem]

I have two questions I would like to ask.
The first question is: On day two of creation, when God did not say it was good, could the creating the firmament and dividing the waters figurative of when the Lord was crucified?

My second question is: Is there a reason that Gen. 1 and the account of the flood have many similar words.
(For examples: the dove flies over the water is like where the Spirit of God hovers over the deep, Noah's sons cover his nakedness, Noah pronounces a curse,)

Any thoughts would be helpful! Thanks!


P.s. In another thread, Glen used the term pink elephants, referring to the ideas he was inquiring about, which perfectly describes how I see the strange ideas I have.
So, if I may borrow Glen’s phrase: Am I seeing pink elephants?

I hope this was not too confusing.

[NumberX]

Thanks NumberX. I was interested in Ararat primarily because of its meaning: "the curse reversed: precipitation of curse."
And your comment on the tongue brings up my next question...does the gematria for the voice/Kole and the Et Kol bring up a connection we could explore, as the Lamed does between them?

Interesting: "the curse reversed; precipitation of curse".

[kathryn]

Hi Gem...I too thought of the similarity with the 2nd day and certainly believe it is a type of what transpired during the flood. I've also wondered if the cutting of one animal in half, and the passing through the pieces in the cutting of a covenant, is also connected. The crucifixion comes to mind as well, as Jesus is a type of ark. The ark comes to rest on Ararat(the curse reversed), which seems to have some connection to the sabbath rest, and the crucifixion as well. I'm so grateful for NumberX and Victor, for opening new understanding in this thread and while it might activate herds of pink elephants...that's a good thing! It's wonderful to be on a forum we can feel comfortable discussing our thoughts.

[Rose]

Hi Gem...I too thought of the similarity with the 2nd day and certainly believe it is a type of what transpired during the flood. I've also wondered if the cutting of one animal in half, and the passing through the pieces in the cutting of a covenant, is also connected. The crucifixion comes to mind as well, as Jesus is a type of ark. The ark comes to rest on Ararat(the curse reversed), which seems to have some connection to the sabbath rest, and the crucifixion as well. I'm so grateful for NumberX and Victor, for opening new understanding in this thread and while it might activate herds of pink elephants...that's a good thing! It's wonderful to be on a forum we can feel comfortable discussing our thoughts.

Hi Kathryn,

Speaking of the crucifixion also what comes to mind is that Jesus was crucified between two crosses, and when His side was pierced water flowed out.

Rose

[kathryn]

wow!! yes! Amazing!!

[NumberX]

We can ask ourselves what to think about the persons who deliberately wanted to lead us astray with their words about the subject as we notice in the first part of the thread. No matter how kind they like to be their kindness is a facade. What do they want, why did they reply? As they are not learning like we do and enjoying the subject in the right way. Are they after "the curse reversed; precipitation of curse" for themselves by using delusive words? Maybe the devil whispers this in their ear?

Are those persons useless for us? I think they are useful for us, in a sense that we are triggered to dig in The Word more then that we would without them, and so we learn even more about a subject we like. We should normal reply and act as if we do not notice they are only replying to oppose if they pop-up again.

[gem]

Hi Gem...I too thought of the similarity with the 2nd day and certainly believe it is a type of what transpired during the flood. I've also wondered if the cutting of one animal in half, and the passing through the pieces in the cutting of a covenant, is also connected. The crucifixion comes to mind as well, as Jesus is a type of ark. The ark comes to rest on Ararat(the curse reversed), which seems to have some connection to the sabbath rest, and the crucifixion as well. I'm so grateful for NumberX and Victor, for opening new understanding in this thread and while it might activate herds of pink elephants...that's a good thing! It's wonderful to be on a forum we can feel comfortable discussing our thoughts.

Hi Kathryn,
Thanks for your kind response to my confusing post! (I probably shouldn’t try to post late at night but lately it’s been my only chance!)


The ark comes to rest on Ararat(the curse reversed)...
That is amazing!

I'm so grateful for NumberX and Victor, for opening new understanding...
I am also very thankful! Many here on this forum have taught to me to view everything written in the Old Testament with a new perspective- (hence the pink elephants!)


It's wonderful to be on a forum we can feel comfortable discussing our thoughts.
I agree!


...and while it might activate herds of pink elephants...that's a good thing!
That’s a relief to hear! Thank you!
I have more to ask but I think I need to sort out my questions; they all seem to run together!
Thanks again!

g.

[kathryn]

Hi NumberX...not sure what you mean by persons leading us astray. Do you mean CWH who feels there could be evidence of the ark and its dimensions on earth? In reading back over the thread, it appears as though you believe this wasn't also a literal event? I confess I do , so it will be interesting, if I have understood you correctly, to hear your reasons why. I've always thought of the dimensions of the ark as the dimenisons of the temple, an earthly representation of a Heavenly pattern. The fact they were commanded to be built and utilized on earth, I believe is just as much a type and shadow with meaning, as the dimensions themselves...but again, will be very interested to hear your understanding on it.
Gem...you brought up some very interesting parallels I didnt mention, with the dove flying back and forth as the Holy Spirit moved over the face of the waters, Noah's nakedness etc. I hadn't seen them before you mentioned them. Facinating! Looking forward to more of your input.

[kathryn]

Something else you mentioned Gem, which really threw me for a loop, as I have never noticed it before, is that it does not mention "God saw that it was good" as the other five days. Wow! How could I have missed that! Was this new to anyone else, or am I the only one ?:eek:

[NumberX]

Kathryn, building a physicall boat stuffing it with physical animals is not what is meant. I always wondered what about the physical fish? Literal is virtually impossilble. The question always is what is it about?

This is what I can explain about the evidence of the tebah (word, ark) found in the world: The Word is in this world. Our words are in this world. Our tongue is in this world. Building (sentences) with our words is in this world. That's how the story of Noah is in history and nowadays and in the future in this world. God gave people a tongue and language and we build with it. And some build with the gematria of it, that's also in this world.

[Rose]

Something else you mentioned Gem, which really threw me for a loop, as I have never noticed it before, is that it does not mention "God saw that it was good" as the other five days. Wow! How could I have missed that! Was this new to anyone else, or am I the only one ?:eek:

Hi Kathryn,

Yes, the absence of "Good" on the Second Day has long been noted...:winking0071: Richard mentions it in this article on Spoke 2. (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Bet_Division.asp)

Another interesting point to note is on Day One, where God only calls the light good, instead of the whole first day.

Gen.1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Rose

[kathryn]

NumberX..I agree that it is a type and shadow of a Heavenly pattern and there are depths of meaning behind it, but why discard the literal one ?

Rose...wow! I have never noticed the second reference either! :sEm_blush8:
And now that I've read the morning posts on "The Pure Language of God" thread, I see Richard has elaborated on it there as well, mentioning that rabbinic tradition has the tov missing in the 2nd day, because 2 represents division. The Noah's ark account , with its similarity to the 2nd day division, would seem to be an early movement back into "one", within the division...with the male/female pairing and moving into the ark. Your excellent reference to Jesus (as ark) with the water flowing from his side, between the two crosses as a further type, also shows this movement into one, as the water is now one flow, through Him. This brings up a question I've wondered about for a long time. In redemption, does the 7th day "rest", move back through the 6 days preceeding it, like an electrical circuit begins and ends at the source?:pop2:

[NumberX]

[QUOTE=kathryn;21756]NumberX..I agree that it is a type and shadow of a Heavenly pattern and there are depths of meaning behind it, but why discard the literal one ?

Why discard the literal one? I have explained what the literal one is: Language, tongue. We should not discard it.

[kathryn]

And is "Ararat" a type of the reversal?

NumberX...forgot to tell you something I discovered this morning, which may or may not be significant. Way back at the beginning of the thread, you asked my interpretation of the 57 days Noah appears to have remained on the Ark after the earth was declared dry. At the time, I had no answer, but lately, I have been corresponding with Bonnie Gaunt, the author of many facinating books on gematria. ("The Stones and the Scarlet Thread" "The Nile.."The Promise Written in Sand" "Time" etc) We were discussing Asenath (Joseph's Bride) as a type of the Bride of Christ and she mentioned that the phrase "Asenath daughter of Potiphar"(I hope I quoted that correctly) has the gematria of 1368 as well as "city on a hill". "city on a hill" is the New Jerusalem, Bride, which seems to connect the two in the "1368". Interestingly enough, the 57 days Noah and family spent on the Ark on Ararat, is the equivalent of 1368 hours....an early type of the "city on the hill"? Also facinating, Potiphar seems to have a similar meaning to Ararat (curse reversed) as it means : my affliction was broken.

[kathryn]

NumberX...Ok, I will chew on that, but I confess I'm still having problems with it. How do you see the literal temple, and its dimensions? We know it existed in literal physical form. Why one and not the other? It seems inconsistent, but hey...I just missed a foundational fact in the creation story! humbly yours...Kathryn

[NumberX]

Kathryn, your understanding and enthousiasm about the subject Tebah lasted very long: about one day.

I am not going to hip hop with you from subject to subject in this thread as you do to make it confusing. Bye.

[kathryn]

You're wrong NumberX...my enthusiasim is flying high, thanks to your wonderful insights. Please don't give up on me yet. I'm genuinely trying to understand where you're coming from BECAUSE you have given me so much already...I am as open as anyone can be, to further insight.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Kathryn, building a physicall boat stuffing it with physical animals is not what is meant. I always wondered what about the physical fish? Literal is virtually impossilble. The question always is what is it about?

This is what I can explain about the evidence of the tebah (word, ark) found in the world: The Word is in this world. Our words are in this world. Our tongue is in this world. Building (sentences) with our words is in this world. That's how the story of Noah is in history and nowadays and in the future in this world. God gave people a tongue and language and we build with it. And some build with the gematria of it, that's also in this world.
I think there is a lot of deep meaning in your interpretation of the Ark/Word floating in the waters of the flood/world. But in the Bible, we usually have at least two levels of meaning - the literal and the figurative. But when it comes to the flood, it's a lot simpler just to believe that it is all metaphorical since the literal interpretation does not seem to hold up on a number of points. Specifically, 1) there is no evidence of a global flood, 2) the distribution of animals over the planet doesn't fit with the story, 3) a local flood solves some problems, but contradicts the need for an ark to save all life, 4) etc. - there are so many problems with the idea of a literal flood that I simply can not believe it.

Richard

[kathryn]

Richard...I was aware of the problems concerning the flood and I have tended to put those on the back burner...however your comment on the need of the ark being a place to save all life really does contradict and one I had never considered before. Thanks for bringing that up!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard...I was aware of the problems concerning the flood and I have tended to put those on the back burner...however your comment on the need of the ark being a place to save all life really does contradict and one I had never considered before. Thanks for bringing that up!
Hey Kath,

Yeah, I kept the flood on the "back burner" for a long time myself, mainly because I didn't see any good solution. But now I'm like "who cares?" - I'll just call it like I see it. The truth stands on it's own. It doesn't need support from a bunch of weak-minded clods of dirt (aka - children of Adam/Adamah).

Richard

[kathryn]

yeah!!!!:D It's very freeing indeed....but it's certainly part of our maturing process isn't it, being able to shed previous mindsets with joy and anticipation, rather than dread of it robbing us of something.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

yeah!!!!:D It's very freeing indeed....but it's certainly part of our maturing process isn't it, being able to shed previous mindsets with joy and anticipation, rather than dread of it robbing us of something.
Yabba Dabba Doo! You got it my friend!


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YznWrvhs9Zw/R9yttW3EcmI/AAAAAAAAAHU/43XIxkdtRE8/S1600-R/237702h51am14e6k.gif

!!!FREEDOM!!!

[NumberX]

I am glad you folks could learn from Victor and me and the Bible that the Mabul (flood) is like a local event in your mouth and throat. Praise the Lord! It is a local event and also widely spread over the world. And can the word to save life? Well, there are leaders of nations who can say let's push the button and launch our nuclear arsenal. God forbid someone to destroy our world by words. I hope they don't get confused. Speaking about confusion: The professor I learned a lot from writes there is no connection with the word Mabul and water and explains the word Mabul as follows:
"The Hebrew word for flood is mabul 40-2-6-30. It concerns amongst other things mixing, in a sense of disordered, confusing mingling. The word Babel 2-2-30 (confusion) is connected to it. This mixing happens because of the waters below and the waters above go outside their banks and start to mingle." And he explains that it is opposite of the second day in creation of Gen. 1.
So this could be why some say the Mabul was a local event that took place above Babel, because of this connection. Then they are right too.

I just found an article about the tebah or teivah (word, ark) and lashon (tongue, language) here (http://www.inner.org/audio/aid/E_039.htm).

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I just found an article about the tebah or teivah (word, ark) and lashon (tongue, language) here (http://www.inner.org/audio/aid/E_039.htm).
Very interesting article. Thanks.

:signthankspin:

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

There is supposedly a new discovery of the Ark made by some chinese scientists. Anyone read about that?

www.wnd.com/?pageId=146369

Has lots of naysayers and detractors.

Some thought and considerations that I have are that the Flood could have been both 'local' and earth wide. It wasn't until the days of Peleg that the earth was divided. Ken Hamm considers this the time of the moving of the continental plates. In addition, as has been mentioned likely many times, there was likely massive geologic activity after the flood so that the mountains may have not been so high and the oceans so deep prior to the 'flood'. In whatever manner, it seems that there was a change from a vapor canopy atmosphere to the present climactic conditions we have now.

[Victor]

I am facinated by the depth of meaning behind the ark, and the connection to the tongue etc. I would be interested, Number X and Victor, in how you interpret the flood and the ark coming to rest on the mountains of Ararat, in light of this.

The account says:

Genesis 8:9 And on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
"Rest" is what our tongue should do. This is implicit also in the date: seventeenth (= pey = mouth) day of the seventh (= rest) month. Our mouths should rest in God.

The word "to rest" in Hebrew is Noach. It is the same as the name Noah. Noah worshipped the Lord after he left the Ark on Ararat.

Concerning the use of the tongue, Scripture says:

Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Psa 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.

Psa 39:1 I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

Also...do you think the following verses in Revelation are connected in some way?
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Thanks so much for your facinating input! Kathryn

Sounds like there is a connection, though I can't see it directly now.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The account says:
Genesis 8:9 And on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
"Rest" is what our tongue should do. This is implicit also in the date: seventeenth (= pey = mouth) day of the seventh (= rest) month. Our mouths should rest in God.

The word "to rest" in Hebrew is Noach. It is the same as the name Noah. Noah worshipped the Lord after he left the Ark on Ararat.

That is an excellent insight. The numbers really cohere well with those ideas.

[Victor]

That is an excellent insight. The numbers really cohere well with those ideas.

Oh yes. I also remember that you wrote the article I Bridle My Mouth (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Psalms/Psalm39.asp).

I'll try to catch up with the other posts.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Oh yes. I also remember that you wrote the article I Bridle My Mouth (http://www.biblewheel.com/InnerWheels/Psalms/Psalm39.asp).

I'll try to catch up with the other posts.
Thanks for reminding me of that page. There is so much I have not reviewed for years. You are the "Great Reminderer" :p

[Victor]

I keep seeing this giant tongue lying right in the middle of the Et Kol...har!


...and now I'm visualizing it as the Kol infinity symbol, darting around the BW of the word:p:p:p


Just thought of something...isn't the Kol infinity symbol linked to rightly dividing the word? And if so...wouldn't this also link to the lamed/tongue which also is dividing the "firmament"?


Hey there Kathryn,

You've been busy!


Yep - I write about that in my article about 1 Timothy (http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Kaph_Crown.asp) on Spoke 11 (the Wheel is divided bilaterally between Spokes 11 & 12).

http://biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Kaph_RightlyDividing.gif

Your connection with Lamed (Spoke 12) is right on! It divides the Word (Wheel) along with Kaph (Spoke 11).



Hey kathryn, what you think does make sense. God speaks His Word, which is represented by the Bible Wheel. When we speak we use our tongues, which is found within the line of bilateral symmetry of our heads, which in turn reminds of the line of symmetry of the Wheel.

http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Et-Kol.gif

As we know, the structure of the Canon Wheel is isomorphic to the tri-radiant halo of Christ. His tongue speaks the Word:
Psa 45:1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
This is also represented by a Sword that comes out of Christ's mouth. (Revelation 1:16; 19:15) Christ's tongue/pen/word cuts like a sword.

So the image of 'tongue sticking out' that came to your mind reminds of the sword of Christ's mouth.

http://cornishevangelist.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/sussex-west-0081.jpg?w=470&h=434

Please note the coherence between the Kol on the Wheel and the Sword coming from Christ surrounded by the Halo.


For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

[Victor]

Concerning the Eth-Kol: I see it as an abridged version of the Bible Wheel. The circular structure of Scripture can be summed up by the four "central" Spokes of the Wheel. It is Christ's Rod of Iron, the Sword of the Word, the Sceptre of God's Kingdom governing the Cosmos around it. Just like the Menorah had a central trunk, so the Bible Wheel has Eth-Kol.

The following are two articles about it. Both are taken from the Rod of Iron (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=884) thread.


The Rod and the Rectification of Creation

(http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12213&postcount=43)
The Rod as the Trunk of the Menorah and the Axis of the Bible Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12290&postcount=46)

[kathryn]

Wonderful insights Victor!! Thank you for taking the time to respond and include links where you have already discussed this. I particularily enjoyed reading your post "The Rod and the Rectification of Creation". I was very interested to discover the connection between "consumation" and "everything"as it relates to a thought I had a few days ago. In one part, you noted:

Likewise, the standard Hebrew word for Consummation, Completion (Kallah, כלה) is simply formed by Kaph and Lamed (Letters 11 and 12) appended by the letter Hey. The same letters also form the basic expression 'The All, Everything' by moving the Hey to the beginning of the word (HaKol, הכל). The gematria of these two words forms the following alphanumeric identity:



Consummation = 55 = Everything

In the "Women's Studies" thread, a few days ago, I wondered if the Kol and its position within the BibleWheel might also be connected on some level to the "double witness". I won't repeat it here, but if you have a chance perhaps you could read it, and if you come across any links in your studies, I'd really appreciate it. It's in post numbers 22 and 23, here: http://biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1641&page=3

[Victor]

There is supposedly a new discovery of the Ark made by some chinese scientists. Anyone read about that?

www.wnd.com/?pageId=146369 (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=146369)

Has lots of naysayers and detractors.



Yes, we had been discussing this "discovery" in the first posts of this thread. :)

[Victor]

I have two questions I would like to ask.
The first question is: On day two of creation, when God did not say it was good, could the creating the firmament and dividing the waters figurative of when the Lord was crucified?

Yes, as everything in Scripture points to the Cross. In this case, the firmament was created on Day 2, dividing heaven and waters below. Christ crucified and elevated between heaven and earth seems to be as a firmament that reunites what is "above" and "below". Rose offered some more comments above also.


My second question is: Is there a reason that Gen. 1 and the account of the flood have many similar words.
(For examples: the dove flies over the water is like where the Spirit of God hovers over the deep, Noah's sons cover his nakedness, Noah pronounces a curse,)

Definitely. The flood event was a new creation. Creation is narrated in Chapter 1. The new creation is narrated in Chapter 8. (The number of new beginnings is 8.)

Everything was designed so that we could connect the two accounts and see Noah as a new Adam. There's a new "creation week", the wind hovering over the waters and the rest. This is important because it provides a framework to understand the New Creation in Christ. For example, the end of the Old Covenant age is compared to the Flood in 2 Peter.

Please see the article Genesis 1 and Genesis 8 (http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-horizons/no-83-genesis-1-and-genesis-8/).


P.s. In another thread, Glen used the term pink elephants, referring to the ideas he was inquiring about, which perfectly describes how I see the strange ideas I have.
So, if I may borrow Glen’s phrase: Am I seeing pink elephants?

I hope this was not too confusing.

You are seeing what this blind generation of "Bible scholars" refuse to see. The obvious and many literary parallels find in structure of the Bible are the heavens opened up for us.

[Victor]

Hey kathryn,

I forgot to mention one thing: the ancients saw mountains as symbols of the heavens above. And in Day 2 it is said that heaven was "above the firmament". It is striking then to find the following numerical identity:


Ararat = 410 (http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Database.asp?SearchBy_Gematria=410) = Above the firmament


The Ark rested on Ararat, which thus constituted a mountain-temple, just like the Ark of the Covenant finally rested in God's Temple on Mount Zion.

Moriah was a new Ararat. (Gen 22) Sinai was a new Ararat. (Exo 19) Golgotha is the the New Ararat (John 19). It develops into the Mountain of God's Kingdom, the place wherein we find our Rest (Dan 2, Isa 2).

[Victor]

Kathryn, building a physicall boat stuffing it with physical animals is not what is meant. I always wondered what about the physical fish? Literal is virtually impossilble. The question always is what is it about?

This is what I can explain about the evidence of the tebah (word, ark) found in the world: The Word is in this world. Our words are in this world. Our tongue is in this world. Building (sentences) with our words is in this world. That's how the story of Noah is in history and nowadays and in the future in this world. God gave people a tongue and language and we build with it. And some build with the gematria of it, that's also in this world.


NumberX..I agree that it is a type and shadow of a Heavenly pattern and there are depths of meaning behind it, but why discard the literal one ?



I think there is a lot of deep meaning in your interpretation of the Ark/Word floating in the waters of the flood/world. But in the Bible, we usually have at least two levels of meaning - the literal and the figurative. But when it comes to the flood, it's a lot simpler just to believe that it is all metaphorical since the literal interpretation does not seem to hold up on a number of points. Specifically, 1) there is no evidence of a global flood, 2) the distribution of animals over the planet doesn't fit with the story, 3) a local flood solves some problems, but contradicts the need for an ark to save all life, 4) etc. - there are so many problems with the idea of a literal flood that I simply can not believe it.

Richard


Richard...I was aware of the problems concerning the flood and I have tended to put those on the back burner...however your comment on the need of the ark being a place to save all life really does contradict and one I had never considered before. Thanks for bringing that up!


Hey Kath,

Yeah, I kept the flood on the "back burner" for a long time myself, mainly because I didn't see any good solution. But now I'm like "who cares?" - I'll just call it like I see it. The truth stands on it's own. It doesn't need support from a bunch of weak-minded clods of dirt (aka - children of Adam/Adamah).

Richard


yeah!!!!:D It's very freeing indeed....but it's certainly part of our maturing process isn't it, being able to shed previous mindsets with joy and anticipation, rather than dread of it robbing us of something.


Yabba Dabba Doo! You got it my friend!

!!!FREEDOM!!!


I am glad you folks could learn from Victor and me and the Bible that the Mabul (flood) is like a local event in your mouth and throat. Praise the Lord! It is a local event and also widely spread over the world.

It is good to offer a comment on the historicity of the Flood. There are difficulties associated with a strictly literal reading of the account if we use the same criteria that we use to evaluate modern-day historical documents. But it is obvious that the Flood is truly historical, though we don't know the details and the scope of the event. Christ took the Flood as real history, and I'm not the one who will say it was not. I as a Christian don't need to look for an explanation on every point (though of course I can). The Genesis account was written, not according to modern historiographic methods, but within a specific sociocultural setting that had its proper and typical metaphorical language to describe the events as they saw it.

Therefore there is not only one method of narrating history. God pleased to use an account that was written to describe the early chapters of the history of man using a specific method. This narrative has the blessing of God, the inspiration of the Spirit and the explicit approval of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Caught parts of a radio show called "Coast to Coast AM" last night. The guest was a fellow named Jonathan Gray who supports the great flood happenings with supporting evidence of a pre-flood race and high intelligence in previous culters.

http://www.beforeus.com

[alec cotton]

yeah!!!!:D It's very freeing indeed....but it's certainly part of our maturing process isn't it, being able to shed previous mindsets with joy and anticipation, rather than dread of it robbing us of something.

I am reminded of a heckler who called out to a street preacher : "I suppose
you believe that a whale swallowed Jonah do you?" The preacher replied ," Yes! and if the Bible said that Jonah swallowed the whale I would believe that too".
Alec

[Rose]

I am reminded of a heckler who called out to a street preacher : "I suppose
you believe that a whale swallowed Jonah do you?" The preacher replied ," Yes! and if the Bible said that Jonah swallowed the whale I would believe that too".
Alec

Well, Alec, I say that is just plain silly.

God gave us minds that have the ability to grow in knowledge and discernment and He expects us to use those minds to interpret His Word....not to remain in Kindergarten our whole lives. :p

Rose

[Clifford]

The geological evidence does not support that Noah's flood covered the whole earth. Besides that there is too many logistical problems with having the room for all the animals on the earth to fit into the Ark, besides the problem of having enough food to survive over a year, sanitation problems etc. There are many other problems as well which are exhaustively detailed in this excellent article linked here. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

The universal flood theory is based on misinterpreting the word used for earth in Hebrew. In scripture, the phrases "the earth" and "the world" pertained to a locality, and not to the whole earth

The word used in Hebrew for earth is erets and can be translated land, country, and ground.

We need to keep in mind that the people living at the time of Moses had no concept of a "global" planet ... to them the "earth" would be the extent of the geographical land area known to them. To apply this literal meaning throughout the Bible causes problems. An excellent article that addresses this can be found here. http://www.angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/noah.html

Clifford

[CWH]

The geological evidence does not support that Noah's flood covered the whole earth. Besides that there is too many logistical problems with having the room for all the animals on the earth to fit into the Ark, besides the problem of having enough food to survive over a year, sanitation problems etc. There are many other problems as well which are exhaustively detailed in this excellent article linked here. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

The universal flood theory is based on misinterpreting the word used for earth in Hebrew. In scripture, the phrases "the earth" and "the world" pertained to a locality, and not to the whole earth

The word used in Hebrew for earth is erets and can be translated land, country, and ground.

We need to keep in mind that the people living at the time of Moses had no concept of a "global" planet ... to them the "earth" would be the extent of the geographical land area known to them. To apply this literal meaning throughout the Bible causes problems. An excellent article that addresses this can be found here. http://www.angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/noah.html

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

I believe you have not read my response regarding the Great Flood. To me, the Flood was real, here it is that will answer most of your questions:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20945&postcount=56

Many Blessings.

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

I believe you have not read my response regarding the Great Flood. To me, the Flood was real, here it is that will answer most of your questions:

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20945&postcount=56

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

I just read your post, but still am not convinced.

I did not say the flood was not real, but it was localized, since there are too many insurmountable problems if you believe the flood covered the whole earth. Here are some from the article I referred to in my previous post.

1. Special diets. Many animals, especially insects, require special diets. Koalas, for example, require eucalyptus leaves, and silkworms eat nothing but mulberry leaves. For thousands of plant species (perhaps even most plants), there is at least one animal that eats only that one kind of plant. How did Noah gather all those plants aboard, and where did he put them?

Other animals are strict carnivores, and some of those specialize on certain kinds of foods, such as small mammals, insects, fish, or aquatic invertebrates. How did Noah determine and provide for all those special diets?

Fresh foods. Many animals require their food to be fresh. Many snakes, for example, will eat only live foods (or at least warm and moving). Parasitoid wasps only attack living prey. Most spiders locate their prey by the vibrations it produces. [Foelix, 1996] Most herbivorous insects require fresh food. Aphids, in fact, are physically incapable of sucking from wilted leaves. How did Noah keep all these food supplies fresh?

2. A global flood would have produce evidence contrary to the evidence we see.

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.

3. How did all the modern plant species survive?

Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?

Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.

Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.

Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.

Noah could not have gathered seeds for all plants because not all plants produce seeds, and a variety of plant seeds can't survive a year before germinating. Also, how did he distribute them all over the world?

4. How did all the fish survive? Some require cool clear water, some need brackish water, some need ocean water, some need water even saltier. A flood would have destroyed at least some of these habitats.

5. How did short-lived species survive? Adult mayflies on the ark would have died in a few days, and the larvae of many mayflies require shallow fresh running water. Many other insects would face similar problems.

6. How did animals get to their present ranges? How did koalas get from Ararat to Australia, polar bears to the Arctic, etc., when the kinds of environment they require to live doesn't exist between the two points. How did so many unique species get to remote islands?

As you can see, there are many problems with a universal flood. This can be solved if we take the flood to be local. This would not be contrary to scripture as the Hebrew word for earth (erets) can be translated as land, country, etc. This can be clearly seen in such scriptures as:

Gen. 41:56 - And the famine was over all the face of the earth [erets]: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.

There is no evidence of a global famine at that time, the Bible states "all countries (erets) came to Egypt" to buy corn (Genesis 41:57). Surely it means the countries close to Egypt, certainly not "all" countries -- unless we assume the Australians or the American Indians... were in Egypt buying corn.

Exodus 10:5, 15 - We read about a plague of locusts that "covered the face of the whole earth [erets]." It should be pretty evident that this locust plague covered only a limited LAND of Egypt, it is the same wording in both places. Yet we never assume these locusts covered the entire globe.

If we let the Bible interpret the words it uses instead of using our present day interpretion we can solve many of the difficulties in the Bible.

All the best,

Clifford

[NumberX]

Clifford, I understand also that the biblical account of the flood is not an historical account with animals we see on this planet in the material world. As we study the words of The Word we understand it is about language, you can read about it in my earlier posts. There are those who read it and learn and are able to change their minds, and there are those who read it and deliberately persist in trying to persue people of wrong insights. They voluntarely cede a part of their brain too as we can read their posts. But they are necessary for us, so that we can think right instead, discover and learn more. They are like droppings but that is fertilizer that makes flowers for example grow better. And there are those who understand it and just vanish into silence. There are different categories concerning understanding. But speaking for myself I just can enjoy the discovery and say Praise the Lord! :)


Quote of EndTimesDeut32
"Caught parts of a radio show called "Coast to Coast AM" last night. The guest was a fellow named Jonathan Gray who supports the great flood happenings with supporting evidence of a pre-flood race and high intelligence in previous culters.

http://www.beforeus.com"


"..high intelligence in previous cultures."
In our culture we have the words of the Torah which are part of an ultimate intelligence, because of all the structures in it's words we do find. 'Part of' because we find ultimate intelligent structures in the words of the whole Bible. 'Ultimate' is a superlative degree.

Like Noach also Moses floated in tebah ('word' has always been the first meaning) over water to another world. Orthodox Jews believe the Torah (part of the ultimate intelligence in word structures) is written by Moses. So Moses could write in the Torah about Noach floating in tebah why not. Or given by God on mount Sinaï (wordvalue 130*) to Moses (the 26th) why not. 'Why not' in the sense that I don't think it is important to find the origin of the writings. And certainly not in the 'thrown into the water' sense, that we should know that it is written so and so many years ago. No, it just came from heaven and is above time, is my humble opinion. Just like the hebrew alphabet where it is made of: While other alphabets have a line at the bottom where all the letters stand on, in this one one draws a line at the top through it and notices that it comes from above.


* When there is a revelation in the Bible, the number 130 shows up. It is the word value of Ayin (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Ayin_EyesOfGod.asp), the 70 (http://www.biblewheel.com/gr/gr_70.asp), written in full as 70-10-50 (130). Ayin means eye. Moses gets the revelation on mount Sinaï 60-10-50-10 (130) and Jacob with the stairway to heaven, the ladder, sulam, 60-30-40 (130). The eye is also on the one-dollar bill, as 'the all-seeing eye'. Maybe because the word for one, echad, is also is a form of 130: Echad 1-8-4 (13). The 13 can be found on more places on the one-dollar bill.

Ok, now I am going to relax and listen to Led Zeppelin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9TGj2jrJk8), it makes him wonder

[CWH]

Hi Clifford,

Please see these website articals that refute Noah's Flood as local. I knew you will still be not convinced. But meanwhile I will try to answer your doubts in red:

http://ldolphin.org/flood.shtml

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c005.html


Hi Cheow,

I just read your post, but still am not convinced.

I did not say the flood was not real, but it was localized, since there are too many insurmountable problems if you believe the flood covered the whole earth. Here are some from the article I referred to in my previous post.

1. Special diets. Many animals, especially insects, require special diets. Koalas, for example, require eucalyptus leaves, and silkworms eat nothing but mulberry leaves. For thousands of plant species (perhaps even most plants), there is at least one animal that eats only that one kind of plant. How did Noah gather all those plants aboard, and where did he put them?

Other animals are strict carnivores, and some of those specialize on certain kinds of foods, such as small mammals, insects, fish, or aquatic invertebrates. How did Noah determine and provide for all those special diets?

Fresh foods. Many animals require their food to be fresh. Many snakes, for example, will eat only live foods (or at least warm and moving). Parasitoid wasps only attack living prey. Most spiders locate their prey by the vibrations it produces. [Foelix, 1996] Most herbivorous insects require fresh food. Aphids, in fact, are physically incapable of sucking from wilted leaves. How did Noah keep all these food supplies fresh?
It was believed that many if not all the animals in Noah's Ark hibernated. Hibernating animals do not need to eat anything during their hibernation months and even for a few years as during hibernation, their metabolic rate is very minimal. There was a report of a species of spiders in Antartica that was buried in ice for several years and came back to life when they warmed the spiders up. In the account of Noah's Ark in Genesis 6, there were no mention of animals activities in the Ark and was very quiet on that account suggesting that the animals hibernated or were put to sleep by God. I would wonder how Noah could control the animals himself in the Ark should the animals in the Ark rampaged or turned violent.

2. A global flood would have produce evidence contrary to the evidence we see.

Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn't such evidence show up?

How are the polar ice caps even possible? Such a mass of water as the Flood would have provided sufficient buoyancy to float the polar caps off their beds and break them up. They wouldn't regrow quickly. In fact, the Greenland ice cap would not regrow under modern (last 10 ky) climatic conditions.

Why did the Flood not leave traces on the sea floors? A year long flood should be recognizable in sea bottom cores by (1) an uncharacteristic amount of terrestrial detritus, (2) different grain size distributions in the sediment, (3) a shift in oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition from seawater), (4) a massive extinction, and (n) other characters. Why do none of these show up?

I believe the polar ice melted during the Great Flood and this contributed to the rise in the water level world-wide by at least 400 feet. The fast melting of the polar ice was not natural but an act of God. The sediments thus cannot be contained in melted ice. There are deposits of coal, natural gases and oil around the world and even in Antartica which suggests either a warmer climate during those times or that the deposits of coal and oil were the results of the accumulation of dead animals and plants buried in the sediments after the Great Flood.

Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time.

Trees even if they could survived the Flood couldn't grow in the absence of sunlight during the Flood and thus no tree ring records.

3. How did all the modern plant species survive?

Many plants (seeds and all) would be killed by being submerged for a few months. This is especially true if they were soaked in salt water. Some mangroves, coconuts, and other coastal species have seed which could be expected to survive the Flood itself, but what of the rest?

Most seeds would have been buried under many feet (even miles) of sediment. This is deep enough to prevent spouting.

Most plants require established soils to grow--soils which would have been stripped by the Flood.

Some plants germinate only after being exposed to fire or after being ingested by animals; these conditions would be rare (to put it mildly) after the Flood.

Noah could not have gathered seeds for all plants because not all plants produce seeds, and a variety of plant seeds can't survive a year before germinating. Also, how did he distribute them all over the world?

Wheat 4,000 years old found in the pyramids of Egypt could still grow when planted suggest that seeds are quite resilient. There were dead corpses of humans and animals and trees and plants floating on the waters during the Great Flood and these provided "islands" of refuge for insects, bugs and seeds.

4. How did all the fish survive? Some require cool clear water, some need brackish water, some need ocean water, some need water even saltier. A flood would have destroyed at least some of these habitats.

The reason why God rained 40 days and nights during the Great Flood was to provide a layer a freshwater above the saltish sea water. This layer of fresh water will ensure survival of those fresh water fishes and marine animals and seeds of plants. And when the water subsided after the Flood, some of the fresh water will accumulated in pools and lakes on mountain tops. That's why fishes and other marine animals are still found on mountain lakes such as lake Titicaca and even fossils of corals, fishes and marine creatures were found on top of Mount Everest. As the Flood was just 20 feet above the mountain tops, there was still some sea floor for fresh-water marine animals and perhaps seeds of plants and trees to spawn.

5. How did short-lived species survive? Adult mayflies on the ark would have died in a few days, and the larvae of many mayflies require shallow fresh running water. Many other insects would face similar problems.

This is answered in item 4 with the layer of fresh water and the sea floor of 20 feet under the fresh waters. Insects could also survived on "floating islands" of corpses and trees and plants. I don't believe animals and vegetations were all drowned in one day and naturally animals and humans will move to higher grounds accordingly as the waters rised in order to survive. Insects, bugs could also survived in the Ark together with the "unclean animals". And that was probably why God also told Noah to bring in "unclean animals" of every species into the Ark as well. Insects, bugs could even clinged or hide into the wood outside of Noah's Ark as well to survive.

6. How did animals get to their present ranges? How did koalas get from Ararat to Australia, polar bears to the Arctic, etc., when the kinds of environment they require to live doesn't exist between the two points. How did so many unique species get to remote islands?

The earth was not divided yet until the time of Peleg which was a few centuries after the Great Flood. I believe the earth was once a great island continent called Pangea during Noah's time and the animals were not gathered by Noah but "called" by God to go into the Ark. It was only after the earth was divided during the time of Peleg into several continents as we see today were the different species of animals separated.

As you can see, there are many problems with a universal flood. This can be solved if we take the flood to be local. This would not be contrary to scripture as the Hebrew word for earth (erets) can be translated as land, country, etc. This can be clearly seen in such scriptures as:

Gen. 41:56 - And the famine was over all the face of the earth [erets]: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.

There is no evidence of a global famine at that time, the Bible states "all countries (erets) came to Egypt" to buy corn (Genesis 41:57). Surely it means the countries close to Egypt, certainly not "all" countries -- unless we assume the Australians or the American Indians... were in Egypt buying corn.

Exodus 10:5, 15 - We read about a plague of locusts that "covered the face of the whole earth [erets]." It should be pretty evident that this locust plague covered only a limited LAND of Egypt, it is the same wording in both places. Yet we never assume these locusts covered the entire globe.

There were many folklores throughout the earth passed from one generation to another of a Great Flood that covered the Earth. And these folklores depict almost the same story of the Great Flood. What were those ancient people throughout the world with their folklores trying to tell us?

If we let the Bible interpret the words it uses instead of using our present day interpretion we can solve many of the difficulties in the Bible.



Great discussion. Many Blessings to you.

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

Please see these website articals that refute Noah's Flood as local. I knew you will still be not convinced. But meanwhile I will try to answer your doubts in red:

http://ldolphin.org/flood.shtml

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c005.html



Great discussion. Many Blessings to you.

Hi Cheow,

I still think there are many problems with a world wide flood. We can take it to be a local flood and still be true to the scriptures as there are many examples in the Old Testament where "earth" referred to the local area or country.


5. How did short-lived species survive? Adult mayflies on the ark would have died in a few days, and the larvae of many mayflies require shallow fresh running water. Many other insects would face similar problems.

This is answered in item 4 with the layer of fresh water and the sea floor of 20 feet under the fresh waters. Insects could also survived on "floating islands" of corpses and trees and plants. I don't believe animals and vegetations were all drowned in one day and naturally animals and humans will move to higher grounds accordingly as the waters rised in order to survive. Insects, bugs could also survived in the Ark together with the "unclean animals". And that was probably why God also told Noah to bring in "unclean animals" of every species into the Ark as well. Insects, bugs could even clinged or hide into the wood outside of Noah's Ark as well to survive.

Would not the fresh and salt water mix? Fresh water and salt water have different densities and thus would mix together.

Also where did all the water go after the flood? If it covered the highest peaks, that would mean it would have had to cover mount Everest, over 29,000 feet, over the entire globe!

Clifford

[CWH]

Yes Clifford,

There are equally many problems with a local flood also....why build a big boat if Noah flood was local? Why bring the animals into the Ark if the flood was local?...just bring the animals up a mountain would do and much easier...

Sometimes, "all", "world", "earth" are exagerrated in the Bible. Did Jesus died for the sin of the whole world or just the Roman world? Did Caesar register the whole world or just the Roman world? Did the Gospel preached to all the world or just the known world in Roman's time?


Clifford: I still think there are many problems with a world wide flood. We can take it to be a local flood and still be true to the scriptures as there are many examples in the Old Testament where "earth" referred to the local area or country

Fresh water is lighter than seawater and thus would float on top of the sea water. I estimated that the fresh water above the sea water was about 200 feet or more deep given that 100 inches of rain fell per hour X 24 hour (100 X 24 = 2400)/12 inches = 200 feet. And that is just a modest estimate. It takes time for salt water and fresh water to mix. Try putting salt water first and then pour fresh water into a cup slowly and leave the water undisturbed; it will take a few days for the salt water to mix thoroughly with the fresh water. During the few days that the flood water subsided, some of the still unmixed fresh water which was above the sea water would have accumulated on the lakes and pools and hollows on the mountain tops together with the fresh water fishes and creatures thus ensuring their survival.

Scirentist have discovered vast amount of water under the earth. There is an ocean as big as the Artic sea just under Beijing in China; there are also several "oceans" under the earth to be discovered.

Do you know that coral fossils have been found on top of Mount Everest? How did the coral formed on Mount Everest?....unless the area around Mount Everest was once covered by the sea either by a Great flood or that the area of Mount Everest was under the sea and then uplifted tectonically to such lofty heights. This uplifting of the earth's crust to over 29,000 feet is also incredible compared to the Great Flood.


Clifford: Would not the fresh and salt water mix? Fresh water and salt water have different densities and thus would mix together.

Also where did all the water go after the flood? If it covered the highest peaks, that would mean it would have had to cover mount Everest, over 29,000 feet, over the entire globe!

Hope this answers but I know you will still be unconvinced.

Many Blessings.

[Clifford]

Yes Clifford,

There are equally many problems with a local flood also....why build a big boat if Noah flood was local? Why bring the animals into the Ark if the flood was local?...just bring the animals up a mountain would do and much easier...

Sometimes, "all", "world", "earth" are exagerrated in the Bible. Did Jesus died for the sin of the whole world or just the Roman world? Did Caesar register the whole world or just the Roman world? Did the Gospel preached to all the world or just the known world in Roman's time?



Fresh water is lighter than seawater and thus would float on top of the sea water. I estimated that the fresh water above the sea water was about 200 feet or more deep given that 100 inches of rain fell per hour X 24 hour (100 X 24 = 2400)/12 inches = 200 feet. And that is just a modest estimate. It takes time for salt water and fresh water to mix. Try putting salt water first and then pour fresh water into a cup slowly and leave the water undisturbed; it will take a few days for the salt water to mix thoroughly with the fresh water. During the few days that the flood water subsided, some of the still unmixed fresh water which was above the sea water would have accumulated on the lakes and pools and hollows on the mountain tops together with the fresh water fishes and creatures thus ensuring their survival.

Scirentist have discovered vast amount of water under the earth. There is an ocean as big as the Artic sea just under Beijing in China; there are also several "oceans" under the earth to be discovered.

Do you know that coral fossils have been found on top of Mount Everest? How did the coral formed on Mount Everest?....unless the area around Mount Everest was once covered by the sea either by a Great flood or that the area of Mount Everest was under the sea and then uplifted tectonically to such lofty heights. This uplifting of the earth's crust to over 29,000 feet is also incredible compared to the Great Flood.



Hope this answers but I know you will still be unconvinced.

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

I agree that there are also problems with believing the flood was only local as you mentioned. I think you can believe either way and still be true to the scriptures. It all boils down to how you interpret words like all the earth and which theory you believe has the least problems to overcome.

The amount of water needed to submerge Mt. Everest would be many times what we currently have in the oceans. Since only about 1/4 of the Earth is land where did all that water drain off to?

All the best to you,

Clifford

[CWH]

Hi Clifford,

Pleas read my thread on the Fountains of the Great Deep. What do you thing they are? The fountains were the main cause for the Great Flood. Ever wonder where geysers got the water from?

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1426

There are oceans under the earth, Increased pressure would forced these waters out of the underground oceans.

http://www.livescience.com/environme...g_anomoly.html

"Scientists scanning the deep interior of Earth have found evidence of a vast water reservoir beneath eastern Asia that is at least the volume of the Arctic Ocean.

The discovery marks the first time such a large body of water has found in the planet’s deep mantle."

Many Blessings.

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

Pleas read my thread on the Fountains of the Great Deep. What do you thing they are? The fountains were the main cause for the Great Flood. Ever wonder where geysers got the water from?

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1426

There are oceans under the earth, Increased pressure would forced these waters out of the underground oceans.

http://www.livescience.com/environme...g_anomoly.html

"Scientists scanning the deep interior of Earth have found evidence of a vast water reservoir beneath eastern Asia that is at least the volume of the Arctic Ocean.

The discovery marks the first time such a large body of water has found in the planet’s deep mantle."

Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

Certainty there is some water beneath the Earth's crust, but enough to cover the entire earth to the depth of the highest mountains (over 29,000 ft)? That is an incredible volume of water.

Clifford

[CWH]

Hi Clifford,

It is estimated by scientists that there are about 5 times more water underground than on the surface of the earth. Is this not enough to cover the earth up to 29,000 feet? The inland salt lakes 1,000 km from the sea in many parts of the world are also evidence that the sea once covered many arts of the world. Here is another website:

http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/89420-0/

There was also the possibility that the earth's rotation slowed down or stopped thus causing the surface water of the oceans which was kept aloft by centirfugal forces to gush in and thus drowning many lands. This is how the earth will look like if the earth stops spinning:

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/what-would-earth-look-if-it-stopped-spinning

The average depth of the sea is 13,000 feet, that means that in order for the sea to cover to the height of Mount Everest (29,000 feet)would only requires less than 2.25 times the amount of the current suface sea water (2.25 X 13000 = 29,250).

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/HelenLi.shtml


Many Blessings.

[Victor]

Augustine had some head-spinning insights on the symbolic meaning of the measurements of the Ark. He notes that the value of the length of the Ark was a multiple of both the breadth and the height, and proceeds to make associations based on that. It certainly adds to our discussion.

Omitting therefore many passages in these Books where Christ may be found, but which require longer explanation and proof, although the most hidden meanings are the sweetest, convincing testimony may be obtained from the enumeration of such things as the following: (...)

That Noah, with his family is saved by water and wood, as the family of Christ is saved by baptism, as representing the suffering of the cross.

That this ark is made of beams formed in a square, as the Church is constructed of saints prepared unto every good work: for a square stands firm on any side.

That the length is six times the breadth, and ten times the height, like a human body, to show that Christ appeared in a human body.

That the breadth reaches to fifty cubits; as the apostle says, "Our heart is enlarged," (2 Corinthians 6:11) that is, with spiritual love, of which he says again, "The love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Ghost, which is given unto us." (Romans 5:5) For in the fiftieth day after His resurrection, Christ sent His Holy Spirit to enlarge the hearts of His disciples.

That it is three hundred cubits long, to make up six times fifty; as there are six periods in the history of the world during which Christ has never ceased to be preached—in five foretold by the prophets, and in the sixth proclaimed in the gospel.

That it is thirty cubits high, a tenth part of the length; because Christ is our height, who in his thirtieth year gave His sanction to the doctrine of the gospel, by declaring that He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfil it. Now the ten commandments are to be the heart of the law; and so the length of the ark is ten times thirty. Noah himself, too, was the tenth from Adam.

That the beams of the ark are fastened within and without with pitch, to signify by compact union the forbearance of love, which keeps the brotherly connection from being impaired, and the bond of peace from being broken by the offenses which try the Church either from without or from within. For pitch is a glutinous substance, of great energy and force, to represent the ardor of love which, with great power of endurance, bears all things in the maintenance of spiritual communion.

- Against Faustus, Book XXI (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/140612.htm), 14

[NumberX]

What a coincidence I read also about Noach, in the course about Jonah.
Also Moses, the saviour provided by God to free from the duality of Egypt, remains preserved because his parents laid him in a teba, tewa. All new-born in Egypt were by law drowned in the water, in the time, but the parents of Moses Amram and Jochawed made a tewa and this way Moses was saved from this. The atbash value of Amram (70-40-200-40) and Jochewed (10-6-20-2-4) is resp. 30 and 550, both 580. They made the tewa, just as Noach (50-8) made the tewa with his word value 58. Moses died on the mountain Nebo (hight) (50-2-6) with word value 58 (Deut. 32:49-50). So he came from 580 and died to be gathered unto his people on 58. And at that point Deut. 32:49 are 5800 verses completed. What a coincidence.

Only the tewa, the word with Gods measures, saves man from mabul, brings man through mabul.

With the tewa, were man drives above the water with, man does not know where he is headed, because the tewa is made with God's measures (and materially seen without rudder). With the boat of Jonah, the oniah, Jonah had a goal for eyes. Such a boat (trip from Jafo) has a goal that will be reached or not. In fact is the oniah, written as 1-50-10-5, in the 'small counting' it is 1-5-10-5, the name of God as He calls at Moses in Ex 3:14. This oniah goes from Jafo to Thashish, a remarkable boat for such a long journey.

Jonah is originally from Gath ha-chefer (2 Ki. 14:25) with value 360 (200-1 90-60-6-3) and the atbash value of both words is 696+360=1056. This is the year of the birth of Noach, the point where the 58 first appears.

Probably not much to discuss about but I thought let's make myself useful today and share some of the endless wonders of the structure of the words of the Word.

[Clifford]

Hi Clifford,

It is estimated by scientists that there are about 5 times more water underground than on the surface of the earth. Is this not enough to cover the earth up to 29,000 feet? The inland salt lakes 1,000 km from the sea in many parts of the world are also evidence that the sea once covered many arts of the world. Here is another website:

http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/89420-0/

There was also the possibility that the earth's rotation slowed down or stopped thus causing the surface water of the oceans which was kept aloft by centirfugal forces to gush in and thus drowning many lands. This is how the earth will look like if the earth stops spinning:

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/what-would-earth-look-if-it-stopped-spinning

The average depth of the sea is 13,000 feet, that means that in order for the sea to cover to the height of Mount Everest (29,000 feet)would only requires less than 2.25 times the amount of the current suface sea water (2.25 X 13000 = 29,250).

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/HelenLi.shtml


Many Blessings.

Hi Cheow,

Read the articles you referred to and did some more research myself. I am now leaning towards the flood being world wide for these reasons.

1. In one of the articles you referred to scientists have discovered oceans of water under the earth's crust. In Genesis it refers to the fountains of the deep breaking loose. So that is where all the water came from and also where it went back to when the flood receded.

2. If the flood was only local how could it cover the mountain peaks within sight and yet not spill over into surrounding regions?

3. If the flood was local people could have just moved out of the region. Sure some would be killed like in any big flood, but the Bible says all were killed except Noah and his family.

4. If the flood was local why would God have Noah build an Ark? He could have just told Noah to flee the area like he told Lot to flee Sodom before God destroyed it.

I think the important lesson from the story of the flood is that God will judge evil and wickedness. So whether it was local or universal the lesson is the same.

All the best,

Clifford

[CWH]

Hi Cheow,

Read the articles you referred to and did some more research myself. I am now leaning towards the flood being world wide for these reasons.

1. In one of the articles you referred to scientists have discovered oceans of water under the earth's crust. In Genesis it refers to the fountains of the deep breaking loose. So that is where all the water came from and also where it went back to when the flood receded.

2. If the flood was only local how could it cover the mountain peaks within sight and yet not spill over into surrounding regions?

3. If the flood was local people could have just moved out of the region. Sure some would be killed like in any big flood, but the Bible says all were killed except Noah and his family.

4. If the flood was local why would God have Noah build an Ark? He could have just told Noah to flee the area like he told Lot to flee Sodom before God destroyed it.

I think the important lesson from the story of the flood is that God will judge evil and wickedness. So whether it was local or universal the lesson is the same.

All the best,

Clifford

Hi Clifford,

I do agree with you that whether local or world wide flood, the great Flood of Noah was used to destroy all evilness on the earth so that righteousness from the seeds of Noah could propagate the whole earth ensuring that the earth will once again be renewed with righteousness which will eventually overcome evilness.

The other way to confirm that it is a world wide flood and not a local flood is to look at Genesis 1 which seems to say that the whole earth was once covered by waters until God raised land from under the waters to form land. If land can be raised from the sea, why can't the land be brought down into the sea which once covered the whole earth? And as I have mentioned if all the mountains and land were to be brought under the sea, the sea would covered the mountains and land at an average depth of 13,000 feet. Coupled with the fountains of the deep which forced water from the ocean from under the earth could easily have raised the sea level to 29,000 feet. There is also a possibility that if the ocean waters under the crust were to be forced out, the land above these underground oceans would have sinked down to below sea level to accomodate the hollow area created by the forced out underground ocean waters.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

Many Blessings to you.

[NumberX]

If one is interested in the part of the sendings of the dove, that can be read here (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1747)