Daniel's 70 "Weeks" and the "Artaxerxes" question.

[wstruse]

Hello,

I would like to discuss the Scriptural evidence for the command to “restore and build” of Daniel 9 being given during the reign of “Artaxerxes” Longimanus, circa 444 BC. I do not believe the Scripture supports this view. Here are a few reasons why:

1. The age of Ezra
2. I Chron. 9, Ezra 2, Nehemiah 10 &12
3. Shallum, Akkub and Talmon
4. The chronology of Ezra 6 & 7
5. Darius “even” Artaxerxes and the hendiadys.
6. Early Jewish Messianic expectancy and its influence on the traditional Christian interpretations of Daniel 9.


These are by necessity brief. If you would like a better explanation of my opinion before you discuss the subject you can read it here: http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ Chronology_of_a_Captive_People.pdf


Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Hello,

I would like to discuss the Scriptural evidence for the command to 'restore and build' of Daniel 9 being given during the reign of 'Artaxerxes' Longimanus, circa 444 BC. I do not believe the Scripture supports this view. Here are a few reasons why:

1. The age of Ezra
2. I Chron. 9, Ezra 2, Nehemiah 10 &12
3. Shallum, Akkub and Talmon
4. The chronology of Ezra 6 & 7
5. Darius 'even' Artaxerxes and the hendiadys.
6. Early Jewish Messianic expectancy and its influence on the traditional Christian interpretations of Daniel 9.


These are by necessity brief. If you would like a better explanation of my opinion before you discuss the subject you can read it here: http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ Chronology_of_a_Captive_People.pdf


Regards,

Wstruse

Hello Wstruse! Welcome to the Forum! :welcome: I'm certain your contributions would be very beneficial to all of us, as we discuss the different opinions of when we believe the order was given to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.

I used to believe as you do, but there is a problem with accepting the date of Artexerxes. The 444 B.C. cannot be confirmed, and some believe it was 445 B.C., though this is caused by the fact there is no year "zero". At any rate, I'm looking forward to discussing this with you. I've skimmed through some of your website, which is quite informative to say the least, and I've also read through some of the article you posted via web-link.

I'll be glad to let you start and let's just see where it goes from there. RAM (brother Richard) is the Moderator of this site, and I'm certain he'll be quite intrigued with your contributions.

Again, welcome to the Biblewheel Forum.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I truly believe that when we understand Daniel 9 from a accurate chronological context it changes not only our view of Daniel 9 but it also by necessity, changes our view of "end times" as well.

Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I truly believe that when we understand Daniel 9 from a accurate chronological context it changes not only our view of Daniel 9 but it also by necessity, changes our view of "end times" as well.

Regards,

Wstruse

Well Wstruse, I must say your link provided a very thorough, and nearly almost irrefutable message of Daniel 9. However, as much information as you provided, I wouldn't exactly hold to a position as though it were infallible. For one, when you consider the Sabbath years, every 7th year, wasn't this also considered the Passover? And if I'm not mistaken, wasn't Jesus crucified during the Passover?

And theoretically speaking, aren't the only two available dates aligning with the Passover, either 30 AD or 33 AD? According to your link, 33 AD is the correct date based on back dating Lunar positions. I suppose this would offer strong evidence, but I'm not so easily convinced.

Because of the information provided by Josephus on when Herod died, I accept the 30 AD time frame. I also believe He was baptized in the year 26 AD, and not 29 AD as some believe, or even 30 AD as other believe.

However, I will admit that my exact knowledge of it is somewhat wishy washy. :lol: At any rate, I'm open to your comments. But please permit me to offer you my time-line of the seventy sevens.

7 x 7 = 49 years = start / completion of cit and temple
62 x 7 = 434 years = from temple to Anointment of Christ (Baptism)
7 x 1 - 7 = 3 1/2 years Christ ministry, 3 1/2 year Jewish confirming (Gospels through signs and wonders)

70 sevens completed, resulting in destruction of city and temple in 70 AD.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

I too believe that Yashua was crucified in 30 AD. I believe Daniel 9 also shows that He was born around 4 BC and that the 69th "week" ended and the 70th "week" began in 27.75 AD, the time of Yashua's 30th year. I am in the process of finishing the 2nd part of what you just read. Countdown to the Messiah - The 70 "weeks" fulfilled. If you will excuse the lack of editing I will try to post a (really) rough draft of the next few chapters tomorrow. Once the 70 "weeks" are seen in their proper chronological context and symbolic beauty the Messianic symbolism of both the Old and New Testament will never bee seen in the same way again.


Regards,
Your fellow servant in Yashua the Messiah,

Wstruse

[wstruse]

Joe,

Also I would like to say that I would be the last to claim any infallibility. This research is drawn from the Scriptural record and other sources. Hopefully others can build upon and refine it as I have done of other's.

Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

Also I would like to say that I would be the last to claim any infallibility. This research is drawn from the Scriptural record and other sources. Hopefully others can build upon and refine it as I have done of other's.

Regards,

Wstruse

Well then, let's get this discussion started. Sorry for the delay....had to work all night last night, and I didn't get home until 5:00 AM. I hate those hours. :lol:

Now before we begin, if you don't mind me asking, I Noticed on your article that you support the 2000 year gap theory. And if I'm not mistaken, you're attributing this to the 1000 years, of which you also call the Sabbath years; is this correct? I read more than one article last night, so I honestly don't remember if it was yours that I read which left me with questions.

So, if you do support a 2000 year gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week, can you list scriptures to support this?

I do not believe a gap is warranted within the context. Especially considering the first seven sevens, and sixty-two sevens occurred without a gap. So why would we say that the last week would require a gap, especially considering the solid fact that "Daniel's People, city and sanctuary" were destroyed just as Daniel prophesied? If the city and the temple were destroyed as prophesied, how then can we support a gap at all?

What we believe on the Biblewheel forum is that the final week was fulfilled at the cross and the preaching of the gospels "To the Jew First". This covenant was conformed by the miracles of the Apostles, and the different gifts according to His promise, that He (Christ) would not leave them (The Apostles) as orphans.

And if you do a keyword search for the word "Confirm", you will find it was used many times in the New Testament, and it was often attributed to testimony of the Apostles and their ministry. These signs gave proof to the testimony and witness of the gospels.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

No, I do not believe Daniel 9 supports a gap of any length of time. I believe the 70 "weeks" are continuous and uninterrupted.

Anyway, here is most of the 2nd section of Countdown to the Messiah - Daniel's 70 "weeks" fulfilled. Again, it is rough draft and not completely edited. So I ask for your indulgence. Also I have not completed the last chapter. There is enough here though for you to get a good idea of how I believe Daniel 9 is fulfilled by Yashua the Messiah.

You can read the pdf file here: http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf

I look forward to continuing this discussion,

Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

No, I do not believe Daniel 9 supports a gap of any length of time. I believe the 70 "weeks" are continuous and uninterrupted.

Anyway, here is most of the 2nd section of Countdown to the Messiah - Daniel's 70 "weeks" fulfilled. Again, it is rough draft and not completely edited. So I ask for your indulgence. Also I have not completed the last chapter. There is enough here though for you to get a good idea of how I believe Daniel 9 is fulfilled by Yashua the Messiah.

Hi again friend. I'm glad to see that you view the Seventy sevens as a fulfilled prophesy, just as our Lord and Savior Jesus demonstrated to His beloved chosen what would happen in the days to come. The abomination that Daniel spoke of was the Roman soldiers surrounding the city. However, some comments made by Clement of Alexandria in the 2nd century seems to indicate that it was Nero Caesar who attempted to enter the temple to view its treasures. However, not much evidence supports this.

At any rate, Daniel's abomination was fulfilled in the first century, and was a near exact duplicate of what happened when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, desecrated the temple, stole the gold and silver, refashioned the temple in accordance with his liking in worship of his god, the god of Jupiter which was Zeus, and offered pigs (swine) on the alter. Ironically, General Titus (Also prince Titus), the leader used by the Messiah to destroy the city and the sanctuary, as also translated out of the LXX translation of the Old Testament, did the very same thing Antiochus IV did to the temple.

Thus, the events of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, were fulfilled as predicted, and Jerusalem was destroyed, giving way to the New Temple of God, the body of Christ.

Therefore, I'm very curious how you see this as a continuous prophesy. Do you mean these things are repeated through every generation, and beyond 2000 years? Just an honest question my friend.

Thanks.

Joe

P.S. Usually there are quite a few members on this board, but there seems to have befallen a silence. It may be because of me, but I hope not. If so, then I would be glad to respect anyone's wishes, if I only knew what it may be.

[wstruse]

Joe,

What I meant by continuous is that there is no gaps in the 70 "weeks" from 520 BC when the command to "restore and build" was given until the end of the 70th "week" when the apostle John died around 100 AD.

Hope that better explains it to you.

Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

What I meant by continuous is that there is no gaps in the 70 "weeks" from 520 BC when the command to "restore and build" was given until the end of the 70th "week" when the apostle John died around 100 AD.

Hope that better explains it to you.

Regards,

Wstruse

I see! :confused2: That's more than 490 years though, wouldn't you agree? Are you saying that Daniel's 70th week was completed with the Apostle John? I'd like to hear more on this, friend.

I believe the command to restore and rebuilt was given to Ezra, and was continued with Artexerxes to Nehemiah. It's during that time that the first 62 sevens were completed, immediately beginning the 62 sevens, which takes us to the Baptism of Christ around 26 AD, which is when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit as the Messiah. He confirms this when he stood with the assembly and read a portion of Isaiah, and says, "This has been fulfilled in your hearing...." and they rejected Him and forced Him away. Thus begins the final week, where He was crucified 3 1/2 years after His baptism; for John testifies that Christ ministered for about 3 1/2 years. This was the confirmation of the oath, in blood, with a "more and perfect sacrifice". The remainder of the 3 1/2 week was spent with the Apostles preaching to the lost sheep of Israel, the Jews. Once their mission was completed, they would spend the next 35 years preaching to the Gentiles and setting up perishes. At the end of the 40 years, the generation of His wrath were destroyed in the temple / cities destruction in 70 AD. But the final week was completed around 35 AD, assuming we believe the "half week" was completed at the cross of Christ in 30 AD.

This is the best explanation I've heard so far. The rejection of the gospels by the disobedient Jews led to their eventual destruction in 70 AD. But when the gospels was first preached to the Jews (To the Jew First), this oath was confirmed by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as seen by the Apostles. Once the Apostles did the best they could with the Jews, they moved on to the Gentiles, though not all agreed with it. By the time the nations were preached to, then came the end as spoken by our beloved Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

What say you friend?

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

Ezra and Nehemiah were contemporaries and based on the balance of Scriptural evidence they were also contemporaries of Darius son of Hystaspes. This is fatal to the belief that the "Artaxerxes" of Nehemiah is "Artaxerxes" Longimanus. (i.e 464-424 BC)

I wish I could distill this all down to a dozen paragraphs. Goodness knows I have tried. To really understand what’s going on here you have to have a firmly ground understanding of 2nd Temple chronology. The best I have been able to do on the 2nd Temple chronology is here:

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ Chronology_of_a_Captive_People.pdf


If you want to see how Daniel's 70 week's bridges the 515 years from 520 BC to the birth of the Messiah in 4 BC you can read it in the link below. It is more than I can paste here on the forum.
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf

I look forward to your response.

Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

What I meant by continuous is that there is no gaps in the 70 "weeks" from 520 BC when the command to "restore and build" was given until the end of the 70th "week" when the apostle John died around 100 AD.

Hope that better explains it to you.

Regards,

Wstruse

Okay so you believe that Daniel's final week carried on until St. John in 100 AD. I'm not sure I can relate to that because Christ spoke of the abomination of Desolation as occurring when the temple itself would be close to its destruction. This was fulfilled in 70 AD, so I can't see Daniel's vision of the Seventy sevens occurring beyond that.

I do believe, however, that Daniel's vision of the 4rth Beast continued even beyond 70AD. Because the Kingdom, which we know as the Church, had not yet taken hold of the Roman Empire at that time (70 AD). Jerusalem was the first to be over-taken by the Kingdom; rather the true Jerusalem was set center stage, while the false Jerusalem (of the flesh) had been destroyed, giving way to the Israel of God. But after the false Jerusalem had been set-aside [with its ceremonial works of service] the Gentile nations were next on the target lists; specifically, the Roman Empire, which of course was not defeated by the Church in 70 AD, but much later. I like to use 323 AD, when the Roman Government had become conformed to the Church and paganism was finally abolished. Later, however, the Roman Church in centuries to come, would become corrupt and cause the horrors history records in the 10th through the 15th centuries, estimated.

At any rate, I don't see Daniel's seventy sevens being fulfilled beyond the 1st century, but was completed when the Apostles completed their mission of preaching the gospels in Jerusalem [To the Jew First]. Once the seventy sevens had ended, and the gospel went to the Gentiles [and THEN the Gentiles], the only thing left to be fulfilled was the destruction of Jerusalem and the abomination of Desolation that set-up this predetermined destruction. Subsequently, the destruction of the city and the sanctuary were not part of the seventy sevens, meaning it doesn't occur within the 490 years, but was a direct "result" of the seventy sevens.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus said what He said when a Scribe asked Him, "How many times should I forgive my brother who sins?" His reply was, "70 X 7" or 490 [years] if you do the math. I believe Christ was giving them a clue that they had until the end of the seventy sevens before their rejection was sealed, and the Gospel of the Kingdom went unto the whole inhabited earth (or world) afterwards. Once enough of the Gentiles had been taken in, as evidenced by the seven Churches of Asia, then came the end as spoken of by Daniel the prophet in 70 AD.

So, in conclusion, Christ fulfilled the half week when He was crucified, and the remainder of the half week was spent preaching to the Jews. Once all Israel had been proclaimed the gospels, and the message bore as much fruit as it could, those who rejected the gospels and tortured the Apostles were marked for destruction and remained Desolate, while the gospels went unto the nations. After the nations were ready, then comes the 70 AD destruction and Daniel's vision was completed.

Now the 4rth Beast [part of Daniel's image of Gold, silver, Brass, Iron, and Iron and clay] was fulfilled when the Stone (Christ) took His Kingdom [The Church] and struck down the nations. And since that time, the Christian Church continues to gain ground, and will do so forever; for His kingdom shall have no end.

Finally, regarding the Kingdom having no end, some think that the increase shall have an end. Not so according to Isaiah. For he says:

Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Savior is given. And the government (Kingdom) shall be upon His shoulders. And of the increase of His government, it shall have no end....

The Kingdom of God abides forever and ever, and according to John in Revelation, all the nations which are saved shall bring their glory into it.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

If we could, I would like to back up for a minute. You said:

I believe the command to restore and rebuilt was given to Ezra, and was continued with Artexerxes to Nehemiah.

What are the dates for when Ezra was given the "command to restore and build"? Upon what basis in Scripture do you arrive at this date? And upon what Scriptural basis do you conclude that Ezra was given this commnad?

Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy. 25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. 27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation...LXX Translation (Septuagint)

We know that the Messiah is the main point of view in this passage. Daniel's people would be given a set time of their captivity which began with the Babylonian Empire. During this captivity, Daniel mourned for his people and city and was reading Jeremiah's prophesy of the seventy years, namely because the Babylonian captivity had come to an end, thereby completing Jeremiah's 70 years. But Daniel wanted to know when Jerusalem was going to be restored. So after humbling himself to the God of heaven, God sent Gabriel to provide him with insight of what was to happen in the future.

He's told that seventy increments of seven years would be allotted to Daniel's people and city to accomplish the following sets of events:

1. for sin to be ended
2. to seal up transgressions
3. to blot out the iniquities
4. to make atonement for iniquities
5. to bring in everlasting righteousness
6. to seal the vision and the prophet
7. to anoint the Most Holy.

They were given the seventy sevens to end their sinning against God, to make a completeness of transgression, and what higher crime is there than killing the Savior of the world? The blotting of sins and atonement came through the sacrifice of the Messiah. Ever-lasting righteousness is through Christ Jesus, through His Spirit that dwells within us. Christ is the fulfillment of all vision and prophet (for there are no prophets today), and lastly, it was Christ who was anointed at His Baptism.

The facts are unanimous that Christ fulfilled all seven things mentioned above. We are then given a time-line of these events. From the going-forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem shall be seventy sevens and sixty sevens. The order was given under Ezra by King Artaxerxes in 458 / 457 B.C. This began the first seven sevens (or 49 years). The temple was completed in 408 B.C. during the days of Nehemiah. Nehemiah was not given a decree to rebuild Jerusalem for he was carrying out what Ezra was already given permission to do. From 408 / 407 B.C. to 26 AD is 434 years (or sixty-two sevens) through which the Messiah was anointed at His baptism. After the sixty-two sevens when the Messiah was anointed, He was cut-off in the middle of the final week which began after His anointing; this was the confirmation of the covenant, by oath and it was signed, sealed, and delivered by His blood. The author of Hebrews states that the "new and better hope" required the promises to be cleansed with blood better than the blood of bulls and goats.

The entire final week would be the time frame Daniel's people had to accept the covenant. Those who did not understand were ultimately doomed at the destruction to come, by the Messiah who would use a ruler to destroy the people and the sanctuary.

During the final week, Christ preaches about the Kingdom and the Covenant. In the middle of that week He was crucified in 30 AD. The remainder of the week was utilized after His resurrection, where the covenant was further confirmed by signs, wonders, and gifts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and their disciples. Once the week had been completed, Daniel's people ran out of time and they would be as their forefathers who wandered in the wilderness for 40 years, by which none of the disobedient set one foot in the promised land. Those who continued to reject the gospel, even after Paul's missionary work those 40 years, were sealed for abomination and destruction, which was completed in 70AD. From 30 AD to 70 AD, those who were disobedient came to their end when the ruler who was to come (Prince Titus of Rome) destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

In summary:
1. Order to rebuild to Ezra by King Artaxerxes in 458 / 457 B.C.
2. Temple completed in 408 / 407 B.C. completing the first seven sevens
3. 408 / 407 B.C. to 26 AD the Messiah is anointed and completed sevens sevens and sixty-two sevens
4. The final week begins in 26 AD and half way through:
a. Messiah is cut-off and loses the city
b. His daily sacrifice was abolished
c. Atonement for sin was completed
d. Ever-lasting righteousness was brought forth
e. The covenant was confirmed through His blood
4. The Messiah sends forth the Holy Spirit to the Apostles on Pentecost and the covenant is further confirmed through them to Daniel's people. This probably ended around 33 AD.....times up for Daniel's people.

Afterwards, around 39 C.E., an abomination was set-up which started a rebellion. This was probably Caligula who set up an image of himself within the temple. The frantic Jews began to rebel so Caligula took it away. Diverse signs and wonders began to appear over Jerusalem, and they misunderstood these signs as God's protection of their city. But one prophesy was left to fulfill, and that was the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. In 70 AD, the entire city, population and the temple had been destroyed. Josephus records more than 1,100,000 Jews were killed, or taken captive as slaves, or even worse, subjected to the newly built Roman Arena and used as wild game and entertainment from beasts or gladiators.

Daniel wanted to know what the end of all this meant. In my opinion, this was the mystery that was hidden. The earth which was once divided by land and sea, had become an earth without a sea. The land and the water had become one land and one body, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

Thank you for your summary of Daniel's 70 weeks. I am very familiar with this general outline of Daniel 9. What I am asking though is upon what Scriptural basis do you identify Ezra with "Artaxerxes" Longimanus. (circa 464-424 BC.) Everyone who I have ever had this conversation with assumes "Artaxerxes" = Longimanus but no Scriptural / Historical proof is ever given. I know this is assumed by 99% of Biblical scholars today but is it scripturally accurate? Does the balance of Scriptural evidence support this view?

Regards,
Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Richard has an awesome article explaining the Seventy sevens and when thoe two best choices are used as the beginning. I went ahead and copied a portion of his article on the Biblewheel which will explain everything. His article is much better than mine. Happy reading:

The fulfillment of this prophecy began in 538 BC when God raised up Cyrus, king of Persia, and directed him to rebuild the Temple that had been destroyed (Ezra 1:1-2):

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

As shown in the table the Old Testament symmetry (Bible Wheel book, pg. 10), these events divide the twelve books of OT History and the twelve books of the Minor Prophets in exactly the same way, with the first nine being pre-exilic (before the Babylonian Exile) and last three post-exilic (after return from the Babylonian Exile). These divisions exhibit perfect radial symmetry on the Wheel with the nine/three division falling between Spokes 14 and 15 on both Cycles 1 and 2, as discussed in the section Symmetries of the Bible Wheel (Bible wheel book pg. 33).

We now are able to see the true wonder of the revelation given to Daniel by the Lord of All History. In the year 538 BC Daniel discerned from the book of Jeremiah that the seventy years of captivity in Babylon was about to end (Dan 9:2). He was praying, confessing his sins and the sins of his people, and asking God for mercy when the Angel Gabriel came and revealed God's master plan of the ages that culminated in the central event of all history, the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ. The prophecy foretold that Christ would appear 69 weeks, signifying 69 x 7 = 483 years, "from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." The question then is to determine this date. Most commentators believe it refers to one of two decrees given by Artaxerxes in either 457 BC (Ezra 7:11-26) or 444 BC (Neh 2:1-8). The first date gives 457 BC + 483 years = 26 AD, which fits very well with the beginning of Christ's earthly ministry that ended three and one half years later with His death in 30 AD. Others, such as Anderson, use the 444 BC date coupled with a "prophetic year" of 360 days to arrive at the exact day of Christ’s "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem in 33 AD. While these calculations impressively demonstrate that the advent of Christ occurred within the range of the prophecy, uncertainties in the starting date (457-444 BC) and ending date (30-33 AD) and other issues cloud the clear proof of its Divine fulfillment. This question has generated a huge volume of literature spanning the entire history of the Church which, while fascinating, lies outside the scope of this article. Thankfully, God designed Daniel's prophecy so that its fulfillment could not be hidden by the "fuzziness" of human history, because the beginning and end points are determined beyond all dispute. This means that even with the remaining historical uncertainties, the Book of Daniel predicted a prophetic window of roughly 124 years (55 BC to 70 AD) in which all the events had to happen: [click on the link below for further images and reading]


http://www.biblewheel.com/History/Daniel_70_Weeks.asp

All credit goes to brother Richard for the above information.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Joe,

Thank you for your summary of Daniel's 70 weeks. I am very familiar with this general outline of Daniel 9. What I am asking though is upon what Scriptural basis do you identify Ezra with "Artaxerxes" Longimanus. (circa 464-424 BC.) Everyone who I have ever had this conversation with assumes "Artaxerxes" = Longimanus but no Scriptural / Historical proof is ever given. I know this is assumed by 99% of Biblical scholars today but is it scripturally accurate? Does the balance of Scriptural evidence support this view?

Regards,
Wstruse
Hi Wstruse,

I'm not sure where you are leading with this question, so let me start with what seems like the obvious answer:

Ezra 7:1 Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,
The question then is "which Artaxerxes?" - and Biblical chronology seems to most folks to indicate the first, or Longimanus.

How do you propose to dispute that common opinion?

Please understand that I - like many others - have taken the common understanding for granted, so I don't have any prepared arguments for or against it, and that means that I have some learning to do on this question. I expect you will have a lot to teach me since you have studied this topic in depth. I look forward to that.

Richard

[wstruse]

Joe and Richard,

First I would like to say I hope you don’t think I am trying to trick you or set you up. What I am really trying to do is get you to consider the difference between what you know and what you assume. I had always assumed the general outline that you both propose as true. Then one day I decided to not take it for granted and check it out myself. So please don’t think this about me proving I am smarter or better informed. I just love the search for truth and I love to encourage others to do the same. That being said, now to the 'Artaxerxes' question.

The greatest reason behind the 'Artaxerxes' = Longimanus is because it appears to fit. That pretty much sums of the evidence for theory. We all believe that Yashua fulfilled Daniel 9 so which believer in their right mind would question this basic assumption, especially since in appears to satisfy the criteria of Daniel 9. (within certain ranges).

Having said that lets try to evaluate the actual evidence and build the case for Daniel 9 moving forward.

Fact #1:
Nehemiah and Ezra were contemporaries. Finding the chronological time frame of one gives us the time of the other. Scriptural reference: Nehemiah 8:9

Nehemiah 8:9 9 And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto YHWH your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.

Fact #2:
Nehemiah was governor from the 20th to the 32nd year of an 'Artaxerxes' of Persian. Only 3 Persian ruler satisfy this criteria.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T51.gif


Fact #3:
'Artaxerxes' , Ahasuerus and Darius are tiles of Persian kings. They are not proper names.

Fact #4:
Many of the same men who came up with Joshua and Zerubbabel in 536 BC were still alive in the 20th year of the 'Artaxerxes' of Nehemiah. Nehemiah 12 gives those who came up with Joshua and Zerubbabel. Nehemiah 10 gives those were sealed by with Nehemiah and Ezra in the 20th year of an 'Artaxerxes'. The table below gives the age of each of these men in the 20th year of our three possible 'Artaxerxes'. Also see the comparisons of Nehemiah 10 &12 below.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T63.gif


1 Chronicles 9:1-17 So all Israel were reckoned by genealogies; and, behold, they were written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah, who were carried away to Babylon for their transgression. 2 Now the first inhabitants that dwelt in their possessions in their cities were, the Israelites, the priests, Levites, and the Nethinims. ………………………………..17 And the porters were, Shallum, and Akkub, and Talmon, and Ahiman, and their brethren: Shallum was the chief;

Nehemiah 12:25-26 25 Mattaniah, and Bakbukiah, Obadiah, Meshullam, Talmon, Akkub, were porters keeping the ward at the thresholds of the gates. 26 These were in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua, the son of Jozadak, and in the days of Nehemiah the governor, and of Ezra the priest, the scribe.

Ezra 2:1-2 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; 2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1Neh12.gif
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1Neh10.gif


Fact #5:
Ezra’s father was Seraiah the last high priest of 1st Temple. Ezra’s father was killed soon after the 1st Temple was destroyed in aprox. 584 BC. Ezra had to have been born within 1 year of or before Seraiah’s death. The following table gives the age of Ezra in the 7th year of 'Artaxerxes' of Ezra 7.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T72.gif
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T71.gif


Fact #6:
The jews building and finished the 2nd Temple in the 6th year of Darius (Hystaspes). In context the statement of Ezra 6:14 is in reference to the Temple. It states that the Temple was builded and finished according to the commandment of God, Cyrus, Darius 'and' 'Artaxerxes'. Now based on the context of Ezra 1-6 only God, Cyrus and Darius gave 'commandments' to build the Temple. Who is this 'Artaxerxes' then????? The English word 'and' is the Hebrew letter waw. It is used in a multitude of ways. Notice what the Hebrew TWOT lexicon says concerning this word. Below Table 7.4

Ezra 6:14-15 14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. 15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1Hendiadys.gif


Based on the context of Ezra 1-6, Ezra 6:14 would better read: 'And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, even Artaxerxes king of Persia.' In Ezra 6:14 Darius is called 'Artaxerxes' . The 'and' connecting Darius and Artaxerxes is a hendiays. It does not denote a separate idea but the same.


http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T73.gif


Ezra 7:1-6 Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah, 2 The son of Shallum, the son of Zadok, the son of Ahitub, 3 The son of Amariah, the son of Azariah, the son of Meraioth, 4 The son of Zerahiah, the son of Uzzi, the son of Bukki, 5 The son of Abishua, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the chief priest: 6 This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which YHWH God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of YHWH his God upon him.

The 'Artaxerxes' of Ezra 7 is the same person as the Darius of Ezra 6. Ezra 6:14 shows that Darius (Hystaspes) is also called 'Artaxerxes'. Therefore the Temple was completed in the 6th year of Darius (516 BC) then the next year Ezra when up to Jerusalem in 515 BC with the permission of Darius now called 'Artaxerxes'. (Ezra 7)

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T62.gif



I have more but I will stop now and we can discuss the above and its implications.


Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey Wstruse,

:congrats:

Just wanted to drop in a quick note to say "thanks" and "welldone" for an excellent post that gives us some real meat to chew on. Rose and I are walking through it point by point to how far we are tracking. I really like your format, it makes it easy to follow and discuss.

It will take a while to digest. One immediate question concerning Fact #3 - how certain are we that Ahaseurus and Xerxes were titles and not names? Esther speaks of "King Ahaseurus" which is in the form of a name and a title. If Ahaseurus were just a title like "Ceasar" then the book of Esther would seem kinda "ignorant" for constantly speaking of "King Caesar" as if it were his name. This is particularly awkward in Esther 3.12: "in the name of King Ahasuerus."

I'll post more questions and comments as they come up.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there wstruse,

I would like a little more explanation on Point #5. Your table is not quite accurate:

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T71.gif



As it turns out, Ezra is not mentioned in 1 Chron 6:3-15. And you left off the last name in the geneology presented there:
1 Chronicles 6:14-16 And Azariah begat Seraiah, and Seraiah begat Jehozadak, 15 And Jehozadak went into captivity, when the LORD carried away Judah and Jerusalem by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar. This means that Jehozadak could be the father, uncle, or brother of Ezra. We don't know because the text doesn't say. But it seems possible, perhaps even likely, that Ezra was the grandson of Seraiah. This conclusion is strengthened by the fact that the geneology of Ezra 7 has a big gap, so another gap would not be unexpected.

And after independently coming to these conclusions, I was able to quickly find that this is not a new idea with a simple google search for "Ezra grandson of Seraiah" which brought up numerous links. For example, here is the explanation from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T3334):


Since Seraiah, according to the Book of Kings, was killed by Nebuchadrezzar at Riblah (2 Kings 25:18-21), and since he was the father of Jehozadak, the high priest who was carried into captivity by Nebuchadrezzar (1 Chronicles 6:14,15; Hebrews 5:14), etc. in 588 BC, and since the return under Ezra took place in 458 BC, the word "son" must be used in Ezra 7:2 in the sense of descendant. Since, moreover, Joshua, or Jeshua, the high priest, who returned from Babylon with Zerubbabel, was the son of Jehozadak and the grandson of Seraiah, Ezra was probably the great-grandson or great-great-grandson of Seraiah. Inasmuch as Jehozadak is never mentioned as one of his forefathers, Ezra was probably not descended from Jehozadak, but from a younger brother. He would thus not be a high priest, though he was of high-priestly descent as far as Seraiah. For the sake of shortening the list of names, six names are omitted in Ezra 7:2-7 between Azariah and Meraioth, and one between Shallum and Ahitub from the corresponding list found in 1 Chronicles 6:4-14 (Hebrew 5:30-40).

Richard

[TheForgiven]

I read the information provided, but I'm not quite sure I follow the facts. Are you saying that Ezra's command to rebuild Jerusalem is invalid? Also, which mode of time / Calendar would you suggest is being used here? The Jewish Lunar Calendar or our Julian Calendar.

I know that some of the early fathers, such as Julius Africanus, utilized the Lunar Calendar (360 days) and he begins with Nehemiah's permission to rebuild the city and its walls. His theory is that from there, you would be taken to the birth of Christ, though that is speculation. I'm not sure that the birth of Christ is considered "His Anointing", although we do know that the Angel proclaims, "Unto you this day was born a Savior, who is Christ the Lord", which would show that He was declared the Messiah even at His birth. However, he was not yet Anointed as the Messiah until His baptism. Therefore, His baptism must be the intended end of the 69th week. And since we don't know for certain the exact day of His baptism, all I can do is estimate, which I believe to be the year 26 AD. I know Futurist insists He was baptized in 30 AD, so they can use the Palm Sunday theory, of 5 April 33 AD as his crucifixion date. However, according to nearly all Calendars, Palm Day was actually on a Wednesday in the year 33 AD, also based on logical Lunar back tracking, so their theory is incorrect. LOL! I'm glad your hear to challenge us though.

I'm very interested in your timelines because you haven't yet provided us that information. And your internet article is too long. Could you give us a short version, of start to finish, especially to St. John in 100 AD?

Joe

[wstruse]

Richard,

Thank you for the kind words. Concerning the title Ahasuerus the following verses and quotes should illustrate that the title Ahasuerus, Artaxerxes and Darius are used interchangeably. First though, here is a quote from Esther and Ahasuerus by Richard Tyrwhitt (1868) showing the evolution of the term Cyrus (Kurush). This quote is in reference to the Josephus Antiquities 11:184-186 quoted below.

'To this the earlier view Josephus may have been led by the Septuagint version of the book Esther. For, instead of the strange-sounding appellation given to the king by the Hebrew author – not Kurush or Khurush or even Khshurush, but Ahasuerus, or rather AKHaSHUeRUSH, or better still by omission of the vowels due to subsequent editorial pointing of the author’s text, Akhshurush – the Hellenist translator had substituted Artaxerxes, a name of Persian monarchs very familiar to literary Greeks and to their Roman, Jewish and other pupils.'


Antiquities of the Jews 11:184-186 184 After the death of Xerxes, the kingdom came to be transferred to his son Cyrus, whom the Greeks called Artaxerxes. When this man had obtained the government over the Persians, the whole nation of the Jews, {a} with their wives and children, were in danger of perishing; 185 the occasion whereof we shall declare in a little time; for it is proper in the first place to explain something relating to this king, and how he came to marry a Jewish wife, who was herself of the royal family also, and who is related to have saved our nation; 186 for when Artaxerxes had taken the kingdom, and had set governors over the hundred twenty and seven provinces, from India even to Ethiopia, in the third year of his reign, he made a costly feast for his friends, and for the nations of Persia, and for their governors, such a one as was proper for a king to make, when he had a mind to make a public demonstration of his riches, and this for a hundred and eighty days;

Antiquities of the Jews 11:293 293 Mordecai also wrote to the Jews that lived in the kingdom of Artaxerxes to observe these days, and celebrate them as festivals, and to deliver them down to posterity, that this festival might continue for all time to come, and that it might never be buried in oblivion;

Esther 1:1
Now it came to pass in the days of Ahasuerus, (this is Ahasuerus which reigned, from India even unto Ethiopia, over an hundred and seven and twenty provinces:)

LXE Esther 1:1
In the second year of the reign of Artaxerxes the great king, on the first day of Nisan, Mardochaeus the son of Jairus,

KJA Ester (Greek) 11:1-2
In the fourth year of the reign of Ptolemeus and Cleopatra, Dositheus, who said he was a priest and Levite, and Ptolemeus his son, brought this epistle of Phurim, which they said was the same, and that Lysimachus the son of Ptolemeus, that was in Jerusalem, had interpreted it. 2 In the second year of the reign of Artexerxes the great, in the first day of the month Nisan, Mardocheus the son of Jairus,

KJA Ester (Greek) 16:1
The great king Artexerxes unto the princes and governors of an hundred and seven and twenty provinces from India unto Ethiopia, and unto all our faithful subjects, greeting.


Ussher, Anals of the World:
3484c AM, 4194 JP, 520 BC---
1015. 'Mordecai, the Jew, in the Greek edition of Esther {Apc Est 11:1-12}, is said to have had a dream on the first day of the month of Nisan, in the second year of the reign of Artaxerxes the Great (or Ahasuerus or Darius, the son of Hystaspes), concerning a river signifying Esther and two dragongs portending himself and Haman. {Apc Est 10:4-13}'


XII. ESTHER -- THE FEAST FOR THE GRANDEES
(Ginsberg Legends – Rabbinic tradition)
The first part of the celebration was given over to the hundred and twenty-seven rulers of the hundred and twenty-seven provinces of his empire.


One obvious point to the above quotes is that Darius son of Hystaspes is likely the Ahasuerus of the Hebrew Esther and the Artaxerxes of the Greeks Esther. Thus confirming the opinion of Ussher above.

Regards,

Wstruse

[wstruse]

Richard,

Thank you for pointing out the error on the Table 7.1. It has been corrected. Now concerning the list of Ezra as compared to the list of Chron. It must be admitted that it is an assumption to claim Seraiah was not the father of Ezra. This is not backed up by any Scriptural proof. Yes there are names missing from the middle of Ezra’s list but that does not mean we must automatically assume that other names are missing. Ezra claims that Seraiah was his father . In absence of additional Scriptural evidence I don’t see how we can take the list in any other way than face value. I have read many articles on why Ezra 'could be' the grandson of Seraiah but quite frankly these are just opinions given to back up an already accepted chronology. Ezra has to be the grandson or great grandson of Seraiah if the current chronology is to be accepted.

Here are some historical references that show Ezra was a contemporary of those men and women who returned from the Babylonian captivity. While not Scripture they support the Biblical lineage of Ezra as given in Ezra 7. (Note* Esdras was quoted by Josephus and was in existence prior to the time of Josephus.)

4 Esdras 10:44-48
44 This woman, whom thou sawest is Sion: and whereas she said unto thee, even she whom thou seest as a city builded, 45 Whereas, I say, she said unto thee, that she hath been thirty years barren: those are the thirty years wherein there was no offering made in her. 46 But after thirty years Solomon builded the city and offered offerings: and then bare the barren a son. 47 And whereas she told thee that she nourished him with labour: that was the dwelling in Jerusalem. 48 But whereas she said unto thee, That my son coming into his marriage chamber happened to have a fail, and died: this was the destruction that came to Jerusalem.

4 Esdras 3:1-2
In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart: 2 For I saw the desolation of Sion, and the wealth of them that dwelt at Babylon.

Here are some more quotes form the Ginsberg Legends which are collated from the oral traditions of the Jews. Both these quotes show that Ezra was a contemporary of returning captives.

XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY …………….The complete resettlement of Palestine took place under the direction of Ezra, or, as the Scriptures sometimes call him, Malachi. He had not been present at the earlier attempts to restore the sanctuary, because he could not leave his old teacher Baruch, who was too advanced in years to venture upon the difficult journey to the Holy Land. …………………………….

XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY .…………………….. The king consented on condition that Daniel designate a successor worthy of him. His choice fell upon Zerubbabel. Loaded with rich presents and amid public demonstrations designed to honor him, Daniel retired from public life. He settled in the city of Shushan, where he abode until his end. Though he was no prophet, God vouchsafed to him a knowledge of the 'end of time' not granted his friends, the prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, but even he, in the fullness of his years, lost all memory of the revelation with which he had been favored. …………..
Regards,

Wstruse

[wstruse]

Joe,

Below is the command of 'Artaxerxes' given to Ezra. The focus of this command is the 'house of God'. The point of my previous post is that if Ezra was a contemporary of Daius son of Hystaspes then the generally accept view of Daniel 9 is irrelevant. Ezra lived at least 60 years earlier than is commonly assumed. When I realized there was virtually no Scriptural evidence to support a later dating of Ezra I was astounded. It is all based on an assumption of the presumed fulfillment of Daniel 9.

Now compare this 'command' given to Ezra with the command of Darius son of Hystaspes given to Joshua and Zerubbabel. Both commands are similarly worded. Both are focused on the restoration of the Temple and priestly service. Both involve giving the Jews 'tribute' out of the kings treasury of wine, oil and salt. These commands are not 60 years apart as is claimed many Biblical scholars. They are only separated by 1 year. The Darius of Ezra 6 is the same person as the 'Artaxerxes' of Ezra 7.


Ezra 7:11-25 11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel. 12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time. 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. 14 Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king, and of his seven counsellors, to enquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, according to the law of thy God which is in thine hand; 15 And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem, 16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem: 17 That thou mayest buy speedily with this money bullocks, rams, lambs, with their meat offerings and their drink offerings, and offer them upon the altar of the house of your God which is in Jerusalem. 18 And whatsoever shall seem good to thee, and to thy brethren, to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, that do after the will of your God. 19 The vessels also that are given thee for the service of the house of thy God, those deliver thou before the God of Jerusalem. 20 And whatsoever more shall be needful for the house of thy God, which thou shalt have occasion to bestow, bestow it out of the king's treasure house. 21 And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily, 22 Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much. 23 Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons? 24 Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them. 25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

Ezra 6:1-12 Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2 And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written: 3 In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem, Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits; 4 With three rows of great stones, and a row of new timber: and let the expenses be given out of the king's house: 5 And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God. 6 Now therefore, Tatnai, governor beyond the river, Shetharboznai, and your companions the Apharsachites, which are beyond the river, be ye far from thence: 7 Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place. 8 Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expenses be given unto these men, that they be not hindered. 9 And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: 10 That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons. 11 Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this. 12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed.



Joe regarding the chronology and fulfillment of Daniel 9 and the Messiah, I have explained it in the 1st 5 chapters of the link below. It will only take you 15-20 minutes to read. I am hoping we can first get some common ground on the starting point though before discussing it on this thread.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,

Thank you for pointing out the error on the Table 7.1. It has been corrected. Now concerning the list of Ezra as compared to the list of Chron. It must be admitted that it is an assumption to claim Seraiah was not the father of Ezra. This is not backed up by any Scriptural proof. Yes there are names missing from the middle of Ezra’s list but that does not mean we must automatically assume that other names are missing. Ezra claims that Seraiah was his father . In absence of additional Scriptural evidence I don’t see how we can take the list in any other way than face value.

Good morning wstruse.

I do not have a firm position on the relation between Seraiah and Ezra except to say that your "Fact #5" should not be presented as a "fact" because the truth could go either way. We simply do not have sufficient knowledge on this point. Sure, "Ezra claims that Seraiah was his father" but the same Ezra in the same context claims that Azariah was the son of Meraioth, when he was actually the great-great-great-great-great-grandson of Meraoth. Furthermore, the ommission of Ezra coupled with the inclusion of Jehozadak in the geneology of 1 Chronicles 6 also suggests another gap. Therefore, the only thing we know for sure is that Ezra was a descendent of Seraiah. The exact nature of their relationship would need to be established through other passages which apparently do not exist.

How much does this impact your argument? Does your conclusion rest on the assumption that Ezra was the direct son of Seraiah?


I have read many articles on why Ezra 'could be' the grandson of Seraiah but quite frankly these are just opinions given to back up an already accepted chronology. Ezra has to be the grandson or great grandson of Seraiah if the current chronology is to be accepted.

As you know, there is absolutely nothing wrong with "assuming" Ezra to be his grandson or greatgrandson if that is what the text of Holy Scripture demands elsewhere. The relation between Ezra and Seraiah is not stated with sufficient clarity to be used as a touchstone to conclusively discern the truth or falsehood of these competing timelines. We need to establish the truth from other passages. Of course, you can argue that your interpretation is a "better fit" with Ezra as the direct son of Seraiah, but you can not claim that relation as an established fact.



Here are some historical references that show Ezra was a contemporary of those men and women who returned from the Babylonian captivity. While not Scripture they support the Biblical lineage of Ezra as given in Ezra 7. (Note* Esdras was quoted by Josephus and was in existence prior to the time of Josephus.)

4 Esdras 10:44-48
44 This woman, whom thou sawest is Sion: and whereas she said unto thee, even she whom thou seest as a city builded, 45 Whereas, I say, she said unto thee, that she hath been thirty years barren: those are the thirty years wherein there was no offering made in her. 46 But after thirty years Solomon builded the city and offered offerings: and then bare the barren a son. 47 And whereas she told thee that she nourished him with labour: that was the dwelling in Jerusalem. 48 But whereas she said unto thee, That my son coming into his marriage chamber happened to have a fail, and died: this was the destruction that came to Jerusalem.

4 Esdras 3:1-2
In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart: 2 For I saw the desolation of Sion, and the wealth of them that dwelt at Babylon.

Here are some more quotes form the Ginsberg Legends which are collated from the oral traditions of the Jews. Both these quotes show that Ezra was a contemporary of returning captives.

XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY …………….The complete resettlement of Palestine took place under the direction of Ezra, or, as the Scriptures sometimes call him, Malachi. He had not been present at the earlier attempts to restore the sanctuary, because he could not leave his old teacher Baruch, who was too advanced in years to venture upon the difficult journey to the Holy Land. …………………………….

XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY .…………………….. The king consented on condition that Daniel designate a successor worthy of him. His choice fell upon Zerubbabel. Loaded with rich presents and amid public demonstrations designed to honor him, Daniel retired from public life. He settled in the city of Shushan, where he abode until his end. Though he was no prophet, God vouchsafed to him a knowledge of the 'end of time' not granted his friends, the prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, but even he, in the fullness of his years, lost all memory of the revelation with which he had been favored. …………..
Regards,

Wstruse
Well, I agree the apocryphal books can be very useful to understand the general history of the intertestimental times (usually by reading between lines), but they have many errors and absurdities and no real authority and so they seem altogether insufficient to prove this point. This is especially true of 4 Esdras which was written after the destruction of 70 AD. Such a late work of obvious fiction simply can not answer the question of when Ezra really lived, and it certainly will not serve as a foundation stone of any legitimate biblical interpretation.

Again, I really appreaciate your efforts to dig into this. I find it stimulating and fruitful and it is helping me to fill a gap in my understanding of biblical chronology.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The link in wstruse's recent post didn't work. Here is the link for anyone interested:

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf

[wstruse]

Richard,



How much does this impact your argument? Does your conclusion rest on the assumption that Ezra was the direct son of Seraiah?

Each of my so called "facts" should be able to stand or fall on there own merits. I sure you can appreciate that I will hold your view to the same standard. This is one of the reasons I appreciate your and Joe's input so much. Your perspective is different than mine. When I see it through your eyes it allows me to better analyze the merits or lack thereof of the "facts".

Concerning Ezra and Seraiah specifically lets say it is inconclusive as you believe. I will concede this for the sake of the present argument. Lets look at my so called "facts" as a whole. They combined present a congruent argument for Ezra and Nehemiah as contemporaries of Darius son of Hystaspes. On the other hand the present generally accepted chronology has virtually no supporting evidence other than its assumed correctness.

Hopefully you will give me your perspective on the other points. In the end, even if we disagree, the least that will be accomplished is you will no longer have to base your foundation for Daniel 9 upon your admitted assumption. I also will get a clearer perspective of the strength and weaknesses of my own arguments.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Wstruse

I'm still reading your articles friend, but that's a great deal of reading, so I cannot comment on it for the time being. I'm trying to absorb your time-lines which is a bit stretched, in my opinion. At least we both agree that Daniel's seventy sevens were fulfilled, but I can't for the life of me see the seventy sevens fulfilled beyond 70 AD. Nothing seems to click. Additionally, I still feel that the seventy sevens was about the Messiah and His Kingdom, and not about the destruction of Jerusalem. For the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a result of the seventy sevens, and not necessarily part of the seventy sevens. It's like this. Do this, or that will happen. That's how I view the seventy sevens; this was a predetermined amount of time before the Messiah would accomplish His purpose in establishing His Kingdom upon the earth, and the Jews had until that time to either accept or reject what He was trying to build. Subsequently, He used the Apostles to build what you and I both share in; the Kingdom of Christ and of His God.

But I'll keep reading, only I find your articles more historically informative rather than explanatory of the seventy sevens; unless I'm missing something. I still don't see where you say the seventy sevens begin, and how you arrive with John at 100 A.D.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

There are two parts to the study of Daniel 9. It sounds like you are reading the 1st part "Chronology of a Captive People." It is the 2nd part "The Seventy Weeks Fulfilled" that answers your questions. Ram provided a link to "The Seventy Weeks Fulfilled" two posts back. I realize they are long articles on the subject but there is no other way to sufficiently deal with the all the material. I sincerely believe you will not find a more in-depth look at the available information. Even if you reach a different conclusion than I have reached you al least will do so based upon a more complete understanding of the available information.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

WsTruse,

Can you please post the link to your article again? For some reason, when I try to access it, all I get is a "saved" dialogue box. Any ideas?

Joe

[Abigail]

Joe

Have you tried the link Richard gives in post 27. Failing that try the site coundowntothemessiah.com

Abigail

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard,

How much does this impact your argument? Does your conclusion rest on the assumption that Ezra was the direct son of Seraiah?
Each of my so called "facts" should be able to stand or fall on there own merits. I sure you can appreciate that I will hold your view to the same standard. This is one of the reasons I appreciate your and Joe's input so much. Your perspective is different than mine. When I see it through your eyes it allows me to better analyze the merits or lack thereof of the "facts".
Good morning wstruse,

Yes, I very much appreciate that you hold to the highest standards of truth. That's what makes this converstation worthwhile! I certainly didn't mean to suggest anything otherwise. All I meant was that a label like "Point #5" would be more appropriate than "Fact #5."


Concerning Ezra and Seraiah specifically lets say it is inconclusive as you believe. I will concede this for the sake of the present argument. Lets look at my so called "facts" as a whole. They combined present a congruent argument for Ezra and Nehemiah as contemporaries of Darius son of Hystaspes. On the other hand the present generally accepted chronology has virtually no supporting evidence other than its assumed correctness.

Excellent. I just need us to distinguish between conclusive "facts" versus "probabilities" so we don't get confused. I readily admit that the geneology of Ezra adds weight to your argument. I'm just not willing to agree that it is a "fact."

But as I study this, I find that the whole chronology is fraught with many difficulties no matter what view one takes. For example, John Bright in his thorough 500 page fine-print scholastic treatise called "The History of Israel" described a number of attempts and finally admitted that he was not satisfied with any of the proposals.


Hopefully you will give me your perspective on the other points. In the end, even if we disagree, the least that will be accomplished is you will no longer have to base your foundation for Daniel 9 upon your admitted assumption. I also will get a clearer perspective of the strength and weaknesses of my own arguments.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse
Thank you, my friend. You have an excellent attitude. It is a joy to be working on this with you. I will review the points you posted and let you know what I think.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi wstruse,

Here is my latest statement of where I stand on your



Fact #1:
Nehemiah and Ezra were contemporaries.

Agreed.


Fact #2:
Nehemiah was governor from the 20th to the 32nd year of an 'Artaxerxes' of Persian. Only 3 Persian ruler satisfy this criteria.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T51.gif

Agreed.


Fact #3:
'Artaxerxes' , Ahasuerus and Darius are tiles of Persian kings. They are not proper names.

This point is still under consideration.


Fact #4:
Many of the same men who came up with Joshua and Zerubbabel in 536 BC were still alive in the 20th year of the 'Artaxerxes' of Nehemiah. Nehemiah 12 gives those who came up with Joshua and Zerubbabel. Nehemiah 10 gives those were sealed by with Nehemiah and Ezra in the 20th year of an 'Artaxerxes'. The table below gives the age of each of these men in the 20th year of our three possible 'Artaxerxes'. Also see the comparisons of Nehemiah 10 &12 below.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1T63.gif


1 Chronicles 9:1-17 So all Israel were reckoned by genealogies; and, behold, they were written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah, who were carried away to Babylon for their transgression. 2 Now the first inhabitants that dwelt in their possessions in their cities were, the Israelites, the priests, Levites, and the Nethinims. ………………………………..17 And the porters were, Shallum, and Akkub, and Talmon, and Ahiman, and their brethren: Shallum was the chief;

Nehemiah 12:25-26 25 Mattaniah, and Bakbukiah, Obadiah, Meshullam, Talmon, Akkub, were porters keeping the ward at the thresholds of the gates. 26 These were in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua, the son of Jozadak, and in the days of Nehemiah the governor, and of Ezra the priest, the scribe.

Ezra 2:1-2 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; 2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1Neh12.gif
http://countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1Neh10.gif

This point needs discussion. I find it very strange that the list begins with "Seraiah, Jeremiah, Ezra" because "Seraiah" is a relatively rare name and here we find directly connected with Ezra who had a father of the same name. So if we didn't know from 2 Kings 25:18-21 that Ezra's Seraiah had been killed, we would have assumed that the two Seraiah's were the same. And who was the priest named "Jeremiah?" We know he wasn't the same as the propeht Jeremiah who also was a priest. So now we don't have an identity even though we have the same name and same office! Therefore this "Seraiah" is not the "Seraiah" of Ezra, and this "Jeremiah" is not the "Jeremiah" we knew from previous books, so why should we just assume that this "Ezra" is the "Ezra" from the "book of Ezra?"

Yet there is more confusion. You quoted Neh 12:26 which states "These were in the days of Joiakim the son of Jeshua, the son of Jozadak, and in the days of Nehemiah the governor, and of Ezra the priest, the scribe." But Jozadak is a short form of Jehozadak the son of Seraiah, which means that Ezra would have been his brother if they both were the direct sons of Seraiah. So the verse speaks of the "days of Joiakim" as simultaneous with the "days of Ezra" his great-uncle. In other words, ther phrase "in the days of" seems very imprecise because it spans three generations here in one verse.

All I can really say at this point is that I am beginning to understand why scholars just throw up their hands in exasperation and say "I don't know" after years of research.


Fact #5:
Ezra’s father was Seraiah the last high priest of 1st Temple. Ezra’s father was killed soon after the 1st Temple was destroyed in aprox. 584 BC. Ezra had to have been born within 1 year of or before Seraiah’s death.
This point was conceded.


Fact #6:
The jews building and finished the 2nd Temple in the 6th year of Darius (Hystaspes). In context the statement of Ezra 6:14 is in reference to the Temple. It states that the Temple was builded and finished according to the commandment of God, Cyrus, Darius 'and' 'Artaxerxes'. Now based on the context of Ezra 1-6 only God, Cyrus and Darius gave 'commandments' to build the Temple. Who is this 'Artaxerxes' then????? The English word 'and' is the Hebrew letter waw. It is used in a multitude of ways. Notice what the Hebrew TWOT lexicon says concerning this word. Below Table 7.4

Ezra 6:14-15 14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. 15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S1Hendiadys.gif


Based on the context of Ezra 1-6, Ezra 6:14 would better read: 'And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, even Artaxerxes king of Persia.' In Ezra 6:14 Darius is called 'Artaxerxes' . The 'and' connecting Darius and Artaxerxes is a hendiays. It does not denote a separate idea but the same.

I grant the translation of vav as "even" is perfectly acceptible, but not necessary. So your suggestion is possible, but I am not convinced either way yet.

So that's where I stand on your six points.

As for this method of presentation. I would be much happier if you would just tell me your conclusion and then present the evidence. I feel like you are leading me in the dark. I think we could make much better progress if you told me where we were going with all this.

Richard

[wstruse]

Joe,

My study of Daniel's Sevnety "Weeks" is in two sections. Below are both sections. The 1st section deals with 2nd Temple era chronology. This lays the foundation for the "command to restore and build". The 2nd part deals with the fulfillement of Daniel 9. Here are links to both parts below. I hope these links work for you. Please let me know if you still can't access them. I will gladly email you a PDF file. You can also access both parts like Abigal said by going to : http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com


Countdown to the Messiah
Daniel's Seventy "Weeks" - Chronology of Captive People
Part I - Section I
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ Chronology_of_a_Captive_People.pdf



Daniel's Seventy "Weeks" - The 70 "Weeks" Fulfilled
Part I - Section II
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/70WeeksCountdown/Countdown_to_the_Messiah__Daniel's_Seventy_Weeks__ 70_Weeks_Fulfilled.pdf


Regards,

Wstruse

[wstruse]

Richard,

I would agree with you. The chronology of this era is extremely convoluted. Ironically this confusion stems directly from earlier Jewish messianic fulfillment attempts. It is not my intention to 'lead you' and I am sorry if that is the impression you are getting. As we both realize this is a very complicated era. My intent is to break this down into manageable chunks of information. Not many people are willing to sort through the amount of information necessary to make a truly informed decision.

To the topic at hand however. The 70 'Weeks' has as its contextual foundation the 'commandment to restore and build'. It is imperative that this foundation be based in Scriptural fact. Discussing the fulfillment of Daniel 9 is superfluous if we cannot first reasonably identify the starting point of the 70 'weeks'. If the case is to be made that the 'command to restore and build' was given to Ezra or Nehemiah then establishing their chronological context is a must. What I have been attempting to show is that the balance of Scriptural evidence does not support Ezra and Nehemiah as contemporaries of Longimanus. Therefore it is very unlikely (bordering on impossible) that the 'command to restore and build' was every given during the reign of 'Artaxerxes' Longimanus.

If the command was not given during the reign of Longimanus then 99% of the interpretations of Daniel 9 have to be seriously reconsidered. Do you see what I am getting at? The current traditional understanding of Daniel 9 is based on 50% wishful thinking and 50% on its apparent 'fit'. Now lets look at this from another angle.

I wish I could better convey the macro perspective of the events of this time. If you could forget for a minute what you think you know about Daniel 9 and instead just answer this one question. If a command to 'restore and build' was given today to mark the countdown to the messiah which of the following commands would you give the most weight?

1. A command by Ahmadinejad of Iran. (the equivalent of Cyrus of Persian)
2. A command by his successor. (the equivalent of Darius son of Hystaspes)
3. A command by YHWH.
4. A command by anyone else Persian, Jew or American.

This obvious poor parallel still illustrates the point that everything else being equal a command by YHWH our Creator would be the hands down choice. As exaggerated as my point may seem we are presented with the same choice in the 2nd temple era.

We had a command to restore and build the city and temple given by Cyrus.
We had a command to restore and build the temple given by Darius.
We had a command to restore and build the city and temple given by YHWH.
We had a possible command to restore the temple given to Ezra by 'Artaxerxes' (Darius)
We had permission to rebuild the walls given to Nehemiah.

All thing being equal who’s command carries to most weight? When you have a comprehensive understanding of the events of this time it really leaves no choice but the command given by YHWH and witnessed by the prophets Haggai and Zechariah. This command was given in 520 BC in the 2nd year of Darius. Do you see my point? I could disregard all the evidence regarding Ezra and Nehemiah and the traditionally accepted view of Daniel 9 would still not fit the context of Daniel 9 and the command to restore and build. Here is the command as given by YHWH to the people through Zechariah. This command was also confirmed by Haggai

Zechariah 1:16
16 Therefore thus saith YHWH; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith YHWH of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.


The above commands of Cyrus, Darius and the supposed 'Artaxerxes' do not even take into account the fact that the 'build Jerusalem' argument is a straw man at best. If we looked at this from the perspective of the returning captives or better yet from the perspective of YHWH as given in His word then the de facto event that marked the 'building of Jerusalem' was reconstruction of the 2nd temple. A careful reading of Ezra, Haggai and Zechariah will see that YHWH actually chastised the Jewish people for building their own houses when His house lay uncompleted.


So you can understand my overal perspective here is a summary of my understanding of Daniel 9.

1. The 'command to restore and build' was given by YHWH in 520 BC. This started the 'Countdown to the Messiah'.
2. The 7 'weeks' until the Messiah is 515 years. It falls in the late winter of 5 BC when Yashua 'became flesh', 9 months later Yashua 'dwelt' or Tabernacles with man kind at his birth in 4.75 BC.
3. 69 'weeks' is exactly 546.71 year. This takes us to the fall or 27.75 AD. This marks the start of Yashua’s ministry and his 30th year.
4. The final 'week' is fulfilled in two ways. One symbolically and one literally.
5. Yashua ended the necessity for the sacrifice by his death and resurrection during a regular 'week'.
6. If that 'week' is taken one degree larger (i.e. x 10) then in the midst of the larger 'week' the literal temple sacrifice ended.
7. The normal 'week' ended in 35 AD around the time of conversion of Saul (Paul) the last called 'living witness' of Yashua..
8. The larger 'week' ended in 105 AD around the time of the death of John the last 'living witness' of Yashua. These 'living witnesses' are the 'many' with whom Yashua confirms the 'covenant'.


There it is my friend. That’s as short a summary as I can give you. I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

.

[wstruse]

Richard,

Just a note on the usage of "waw" and "Artaxerxes" under my "point #6". Based on the context of Ezra 1-6 no one other than YHWH, Cyrus and Darius gave a command to "restore and build" the Temple. The Temple which according to verse 15 was completed in the 6th year of Darius. Therefore in the context of Ezra 6:14-15 and the preceding chapters "waw" must be used as a hendiadys. Thus showing Darius = Artaxerxes.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

So you can understand my overal perspective here is a summary of my understanding of Daniel 9.

1. The “command to restore and build” was given by YHWH in 520 BC. This started the “Countdown to the Messiah”.
2. The 7 “weeks” until the Messiah is 515 years. It falls in the late winter of 5 BC when Yashua “became flesh”, 9 months later Yashua “dwelt” or Tabernacles with man kind at his birth in 4.75 BC.
3. 69 “weeks” is exactly 546.71 year. This takes us to the fall or 27.75 AD. This marks the start of Yashua’s ministry and his 30th year.
4. The final “week” is fulfilled in two ways. One symbolically and one literally.
5. Yashua ended the necessity for the sacrifice by his death and resurrection during a regular “week”.
6. If that “week” is taken one degree larger (i.e. x 10) then in the midst of the larger “week” the literal temple sacrifice ended.
7. The normal “week” ended in 35 AD around the time of conversion of Saul (Paul) the last called “living witness” of Yashua..
8. The larger “week” ended in 105 AD around the time of the death of John the last “living witness” of Yashua. These “living witnesses” are the “many” with whom Yashua confirms the “covenant”.


There it is my friend. That’s as short a summary as I can give you. I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

This is what I wanted to see, WsTruse. I thank you for answering the questions....saved me a great deal of read. :lol:

I may agree with you on the starting point, but this problem was already addressed by an early Church father, name Julius Africanus. His solution was that the Jewish time table was supposed to be used, and not the solar calendar based on a 364 (1/4) day year. The Jewish calendar is based on 360 day lunar years, with three months added (I think that's right) every 7th year to balance out the days.

At any rate, we might have a fair debate on the starting point, but your time frame alone goes beyond 490 years, or seventy sevens, and most would accuse you of inserting too many gaps. There cannot be any gap, and the increments of seven represent years of seven. Using your time-line, we're dealing with 625 years here, an excess of 135 total years; this doesn't fit.

I appreciate your response but I can't find any Biblical or logical solution for spanning that amount of time. If we did that, then Futurist's would justify themselves in inserting an even larger gap of 2000+ years.

Therefore, I agree with you about the difficulties in determining the starting point, but I do not agree with you about the time frame, especially 105AD; that's just too far.

But I do respect your quite extensive knowledge in history. I cherish history as a golden spoon. ;)

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

Biblical time at least as far back as Hezekiah was a lunar / solar calendar. Every year there are 12 months of 29.53 day lunar cycles. About every three years though there is a year of 13 lunar cycles. The only real Scriptural evidence for a month of 30 days is found it Gen. concerning Noah and the flood. There is some additional anecdotal evidence but nothing that meets a standard of conclusive proof.

Daniel 2:21 indicates that YHWH did change the times and seasons at some point. From the point of Daniel to the present the Jewish years have alternated between months of 12 lunar cycles and 13 lunar cycles on aprox. a 3 to1 basis. Rabbinic literature claims that it was during the reign of Hezekiah that a intercalary 13th month was added. For sure though, during the time that Yashua walked on earth the 'Jewish' calendar alternated between these 12 and 13 lunar cycle years.

As it stands right now we have 4 possible year lengths upon which to calculated Daniel 9. This is assuming that the 'weeks' are meant to be measured by our reckoning of time.

Our modern 365.24 day year.
The year during Noah’s time of 360 days.
A 'modern' Biblical year of 12 lunar cycles of 354.36 days
A 'modern' Biblical year of 13 lunar cycles of 383.89 days

Before I get to my point, to be perfectly accurate in regards to Daniel 9:24-27, it should be noted that the prophecy at no point identifies a week or a year as we understand them today. When we use the word 'week' or 'year' in relation to Daniel 9 we are making certain assumptions that are not given in the passage. Literally speaking, Daniel 9 only identifies 1 seven, 62 sevens, 7 sevens, and by addition 69 sevens, and in total 70 sevens. I repeat again for emphasis at no point is the Hebrew word year mentioned. It is our assumption that each of these periods of 7 equal a 'year' or 'years' as we understand them. Do you see my point? That each 'week' or seven is equal to 7 of our modern years may be a good logical assumption but not necessarily the intent of YHWH who gave the vision.

We just showed that we have 4 possible 'year' lengths which may be used to calculated each of the 'sevens' of Daniel 9. Did you know that the early Jewish messianic expectants used a 'year' of 9 lunar cycles to show Judas Maccabaeus was the promised messiah? Other Jewish expectants used 16 lunar cycles, others used 18, and still others used a solar year of 365 days. My point to all this is that the length of time used for Daniel 9 has been widely debated from the time of Judas Maccabaeus.

Now take a look at the following Tables. What do each of these tables have in common? These tables each represent either the numbers 13 or 14 or both in relation to Yashua and / or the Messianic idea. Have you every wondered why the number 14 figures so prominently in sacrificial symbolism. (i.e. the 14th of Nisan, 14 lambs, etc. etc.) Have you ever noticed that the moon (by which the Biblical Holydays are governed) has 13 or 14 days of increasing light followed by 13 or 14 days of decreasing light which totals a cycle length of 29.53 days? The very 'shadow' pictures of the Messiah are governed by the lunar cycle. Why would Daniel 9 be any different?

Table 4.2 Yashua's geneology Matthew 1
Table 5.1 Davids name
Table 5.2 Sacrifices during the feast of Tabernacles
Table 5.3 The preistly courses and Yashua birth
Table 5.4 YHWH name



http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T42.gif
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T51.gif
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T52.gif
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T53.gif
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/P1S2T54.gif


It is my belief that YHWH purposely left us all this symbolism so that their would be no doubt about the identity of the Messiah.

70 'weeks' x 13 lunar cycles equals 515 of our solar years.
69 'weeks' x 14 lunar cycles equals 546 of our solar years.
1 'week' x 14 lunar cycles equals 7.9 of our solar years.

13 x 70 'weeks' from the divine command in 520 BC takes us to the winter of 5 BC.
14 x 69 'weeks' from the Divine command in 520 BC takes us to the fall of 27 AD.
14 x the final 'week' takes us to 35 AD.

The summary of all this is that the numbers 13 & 14 are the Messiah factors. They define and quantify the Messiah’s life and ministry. Daniel 9 was never meant to run based upon mans measurement of time. It was always meant to be based upon a measurement of time as defined by YHWH.

Psalm 19:1-5 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Daniel 2:21 21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Brother WsTruse,

Let me first say that I found your post very interesting, and I applaud you in your efforts to make this as easy as possible, especially for the simple minded folks like myself. :lol: I find your research to be that of a genius, and I can certainly see the connections you made. I only wish I had the time to review all the algebra involved in figuring these things out. :confused2: But I enjoyed reading it, but there are a great deal of numerical comparison's to make, so this gives me something new to chew on.

Anyways, I appreciate your post and I thank you for this awesome work. Whether or not I agree is still in question, but I would like to exercise a bit of caution...again, this is not saying you are wrong, for you might very well be right. But I still recommend caution because folks like Jack Vanimpie and many other Preachers in the past have tried taking all sorts of numbers from the Old Testament and tried to calculate date settings and so forth based on Biblical numbers.

The early church fathers, such as Irenaeus, Barnabus, and a few others, misunderstood Peter's statement of the Lord's day = a 1000 years. By their view, from the time of Adam unto Christ return would be 7,000 years, and the New World would come on the 8th day, that is, 8,000 years. But this expired in 1986, based on his calculation from Adam to Christ crucifixion. Nearly all the fathers calculated the time frame from Adam to Christ to be close to 6,000 years. Some calculated between 5,500 to 5,900 years. So Barnabus supposed that an additional 1000 years would be added to Christ's resurrection, which would place the 7th day (7,000 years) around the turn of the first Millennium (10th or 11th century). And history recalls that Christians during that time thought the world was going to end. Many quit their jobs, left their families, and all moved to a single location, awaiting His return during the night hours (a thief in the night). By morning, nothing happened and all were saddened by Christ not returning as expected. Soon, more teachers began to make new predictions based on numbers found in the scriptures, and they realized they originally miscalculated.

Okay, my point is that digging too deep into numbers can actually drive a man crazy. :lol: And I'm not comparing you to them, but I can almost hear the Futurist, after reading your charts, coming up with new ideas about their eschatology, using the spread sheets you graciously provided. Let's not get caught up with them in that. :Date_Setting: Though I know you don't do as the Futurist do, trying to use Biblical numbers to set a date. I can almost hear them doing this now. :lol:

At any rate, I believe Daniel 9 is fulfilled and the scriptures alone suffice, without having to over-exert myself on the math. :lol: All seven requirements were fulfilled with the Messiah in the first century; no magical numbers required, though I do appreciate yours brother. Here's the passages again:


Septuagint (LXX)
24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

25 And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

The following events are part of the Seventy Sevens....nothing else. Notice that the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned in these seven things. That's because that (70 AD) was a result of what you see below (The seven requirements) and were not "part" of the seventy sevens. In short, these things would be the time-limit which would lead to 70 AD. The times were set, and the results of those things was fulfilled in 70 AD.

1. make an end sin
2. seal up transgressions
3. Blot out Iniquities
4. Make atonement for iniquities
5. Bring in Ever-Lasting righteousness
6. Fulfill vision and prophet
7. Anoint the Most Holy (Messiah)

Christ made an end of sin, who also sealed up transgressions in his body, and by His blood he blot out all iniquity and made atonement. This resulted in bringing in righteousness through grace, and not the Law and it's works (ceremonies, new moons, feastings, fasting, Sabbaths, etc.), and it was Christ who fulfilled all visions and prophet, having been anointed with the oil of gladness (Holy Spirit) and proclaimed the message of hope and the Kingdom for 3 1/2 years before his awesome sacrifice. This message was further confirmed during the remainder of the half-weeks, as witnessed by the diverse gifts all throughout Jerusalem and Asia Minor, giving testimony to what they were speaking and teaching as true.

Finally, when the times were completed, and the fullness of the Gentiles had been completed, along with the remnant of Israel, Jerusalem was destroyed as a Harlot, and the New Bride, the Church, had made herself ready. And since that time, the Kingdom of Christ and of His God (our God) has ruled over the nations with a Rod of Iron, symbolic for discipline. When nations rebel, they are punished; when they submit to Christ, they are refined. What an awesome King we have, who rains righteousness to both Saint and Sinner.

Again brother, thanks for your contributions. I'm sure brother Richard and anyone else reading these posts will find your contribution quite interesting, and probably even correct.

Amen!

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

Thank you for your input. I look forward to continuing this discussion when you have had a chance to further investigate the evidence.

On a related issue you stated :
proclaimed the message of hope and the Kingdom for 3 1/2 years Can you prove this statement from Scripture? My point here is not to pin you down but for you to question your assumption. The 3.5 years of Yashua ministry is based on an already assumed understanding of Daniel 9. Does the gospel record confirm the ministry of Yashua as 3.5 years? In fact the only place where a possible chronology can be established is the gospel of John. In John there are only 3 Passovers described. If Yashua started His ministry at age 30 (as prescribed by the law) then His likely ministry was only 2.5 years long not 3.5. Just something for you to consider in your interpretation of Daniel 9.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Can you prove this statement from Scripture? My point here is not to pin you down but for you to question your assumption. The 3.5 years of Yashua ministry is based on an already assumed understanding of Daniel 9. Does the gospel record confirm the ministry of Yashua as 3.5 years? In fact the only place where a possible chronology can be established is the gospel of John. In John there are only 3 Passovers described. If Yashua started His ministry at age 30 (as prescribed by the law) then His likely ministry was only 2.5 years long not 3.5. Just something for you to consider in your interpretation of Daniel 9.

Warm Regards,

Wstruse

Here's a link to an article which provides the logic used to determine the length of Christ's ministry.

Link: http://www.bible.ca/history/eubanks/history-eubanks-2.htm

III. His Ministry

After His baptism and a 40-day period of fasting and temptation in the wilderness, Jesus began His public ministry. Since the first Passover of Jesus' ministry was the 46th year of the temple's building (Jn.2:13,20), and Herod began to renovate the temple in 19 BC, a date of 27 A.D. is placed upon this first Passover of Jesus' ministry. It appears that Jesus' public ministry lasted a little over three years. This determination is made, not only by counting the references to the Passover, the second of which is questionable, in the Gospel of John (2:23; 5:1; 6:4; 13:1), but also by the consideration that the activities of Jesus could not very well be squeezed into a shorter period.

Jesus' ministry may be divided into three parts.

(1) Early. This part of His ministry lasted from His public identification by John until the arrest of John. Though Jesus did spend some time in Galilee, this part of His ministry was primarily spent in Judea and is detailed by John (1-3).

(2) Middle. This was by far the lengthiest part of Jesus' public ministry lasting at least two years. The basic setting for this period was Galilee though intermittent trips were made to such places as Judea, Caesarea Philippi. and Phoenicia. During the early part of this ministry Jesus preached His sermon on the mount and chose His twelve apostles, who stayed with Him and were trained during the rest of His ministry. Matthew and Mark are primarily concerned with this part of His ministry.

(3) Late. The setting for this part of His ministry was primarily Perea and Judea. Luke (9:51 - 19:28) and John (7:2 - 11:57) provide the most information about Jesus' Perean ministry and His final journey to Jerusalem.

IV. His Death, Resurrection, and Ascension

All four Gospels devote a disproportionately large part of their records to Jesus' last days in Jerusalem. One-third of the Gospel of John (13-19) is devoted to one 24-hour period. Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph on the Sunday before the Passover, 30 A.D., delivered His Mount Olivet discourse on Tuesday (Mt. 24), instituted the Lord's Supper during the Passover meal on Thursday night, was arrested, tried, convicted, crucified, and buried on Friday, and was raised from the dead on the following Sunday, the third day after His death, as He had predicted (Mk. 16:9; Mt. 16:21). Thereafter He taught His apostles over a 40-day period which ended with His ascension to heaven from Mount Olivet (Acts 1:1-12).

This pretty much convinces me that Jesus began his ministry around 26-27AD and was crucified around 30 AD. This period is believe to have covered the four Passover's he attended, though nobody can conclusively provide exact dates which are clouded in historical errors. Some suppose that Christ began His ministry in 30 AD, which would put His last passover meal in 34 AD, but that doesn't align with Jewish time-keeping. Then again, I'm no Jewish schalor, so my answers are estimated based on the research of others.

Thereofore, I'm quite comfortable with the above.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,


Since the first Passover of Jesus' ministry was the 46th year of the temple's building (Jn.2:13,20), and Herod began to renovate the temple in 19 BC, a date of 27 A.D. is placed upon this first Passover of Jesus' ministry.

Antiquities of the Jews 15:380 80 And now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build by himself the temple of God, {a} and make it larger in size, and to raise it to a most magnificent height, as esteeming it to be the most glorious of all his actions, as it really was, to bring it to perfection, and that this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial of him;

Here is a table showing the 46 years noted in the chronology you quoted above from http://www.bible.ca/history/eubanks/...-eubanks-2.htm The evidence this person gives does not support his conclusion. Note the table below. It shows the chronology of Josephus concerning Herod. The ancient year began in spring which would be our March or April and the Jewish Nisan. If the 46 years began precisely on the 1st day of 19 BC, then the month of Nisan 27 AD ended the 45th year not the 46th year. The Nisan of 28 AD ended the 46th year. Based on this persons own evidence then if the Temple was 46 years in building this Passover of John 2 likely began in 28 AD. (Please also note that John 2:19-23 indicates the '46 years' statement was given at some point before the Passover.)

http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/HerodTemple46Years.gif

Here are the 4 references that are given in the article you quoted. Notice the second reference. I have quoted the preceding verses to give some context to the un-named 'feast of the Jews'. Based on the context of the preceding verses this 'feast' likely fell in the 4 months that preceded the harvest. The only two feasts that fit this would be either Shavuot or Hanukah. Taken at face value there is no evidence, specific or general that supports a 4th Passover. I know that I have belabored the point, but all I am trying to illustrate is that there is no real Scriptural evidence specific or general that supports a 3.5 year ministry. The scholars that propose this 3.5 years do so out of a long standing assumption (realized or not) concerning Daniel 9.


John 2:19-23 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

John 4:28 - 5:1 28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? 30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him………………… 34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. 35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest…………………….. 40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. ………………………………………….K JV John 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 6:1-4 KJV John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

John 13:1-2 JV John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;



Anyway, agree or disagree it is good to discuss this with you. Thank you for taking the time. I look forward to continuing the discussion.

Warm regards,
Your fellow servant in Yashua the Messiah,

Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

Anyway, agree or disagree it is good to discuss this with you. Thank you for taking the time. I look forward to continuing the discussion.

Warm regards,
Your fellow servant in Yashua the Messiah,

Wstruse

That's certainly a nice chart, but how accurate is it? I suppose this would depend on the starting point, from where you were able to establish a base line. Between Julian or Lunar Calendars, and many ancient documents providing dates, not all always agree. What was your starting point?

I ask because it appears your chart says Christ was born around 3 B.C. Or 4 B.C.

At any rate, I appluad your tedious work on establishing the dates, but based on what I've leared so far, if we're wrong on our starting point, everything else gets tossed. That's why I decided not to worry about the dates anymore.

But thanks for the info.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

The baseline dates of BC, A.U.C., Olympiads, and the Seleucean years are pretty much established historically and there is little debate concerning them. The baseline for the Hebrew chronology (the orange column = Y.C.) is synchronized by the 2nd temple era chronology (e.i. yrs. of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius etc.) with the given reigns of the kings of Judah and Israel. It is the orange column that is open to the most debate today. Now concerning the chronology of Herod it is based on the account of Josephus and Dio Cassius and the references are provided. Josephus’ dates his chronology from the Seleusean year and sometimes from the Olympiad. I have searched Josephus’ Ant. and Wars, to find each reference to dateable events. The table you see is just one piece of the chronology focused on the life of Herod in relation to the Biblical account. I personally believe that an overall accurate chronology can be established even if there are pieces here and there that are left open for debate.

As to the birth date for Yashua I believe the balance of evidence to show He was born in 4.75 BC. Josephus provides several interesting details concerning the life of Herod that helps fix this date from strictly secular sources. One of the most important being the description of an eclipse that happened near the end of Herod reign.

Concerning the dates and chronology of the Scripture I have had a lifelong interest in searching the Scripture for treasure. I personally believe that if the dates were not important they would not have been given. I in fact will go one step further and state that I believe YHWH has left us abundance evidence in the chronology of the Scripture to show us His plan of reconciliation is being accomplished according to His predetermined purpose and plan. As I said before I do believe that Daniel’s 70 'weeks' have been completed when Yashua became flesh and 'dwelt' among us. I also look forward to Yashua’s return to fulfill the next part in YHWH’s plan.

With this Hope in mind, Maranatha!!!!!!!
Warm regards,
Wstruse

[TheForgiven]

As to the birth date for Yashua I believe the balance of evidence to show He was born in 4.75 BC. Josephus provides several interesting details concerning the life of Herod that helps fix this date from strictly secular sources. One of the most important being the description of an eclipse that happened near the end of Herod reign.

Concerning the dates and chronology of the Scripture I have had a lifelong interest in searching the Scripture for treasure. I personally believe that if the dates were not important they would not have been given. I in fact will go one step further and state that I believe YHWH has left us abundance evidence in the chronology of the Scripture to show us His plan of reconciliation is being accomplished according to His predetermined purpose and plan. As I said before I do believe that Daniel’s 70 “weeks” have been completed when Yashua became flesh and “dwelt” among us. I also look forward to Yashua’s return to fulfill the next part in YHWH’s plan.

With this Hope in mind, Maranatha!!!!!!!
Warm regards,
Wstruse

Well I certainly applaud your detailed outline and obvious work-loads you endured in building this awesome piece. It's just a great deal to swallow, and I myself have spent a few years trying to put to gether a fair table with the different times. But it's sooooo difficult with the different modes of Calendar, so I gave up.

I figured if the Prophesy was to Jews, then the Jewish time-table would be used, just as Julius Africanus did in the 3rd century. But after reading other articles of Daniel chapter 9, I also saw how the Seventy Sevens fit using our Calendar, based on the Julian year. Then again, I can also see the problem with that, as that mode of Calender was not used by the Jews (Solar Calendar).

At any rate, when would you say that Christ was crucified? I wasn't able to discern that from your chart. Was Christ crucified after 30 AD? Also, are you able to identify the exact year of His Baptism? That would help out a lot.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,


At any rate, when would you say that Christ was crucified? I wasn't able to discern that from your chart. Was Christ crucified after 30 AD? Also, are you able to identify the exact year of His Baptism? That would help out a lot.

Here is the chronology of Yashua's life as I see it. Please note most confusion surrounding this chronology comes from the usage of the year. Most people use our modern year as a basis to calculate the chronology. Note the 2nd part of the table below. Each year is compared side by side. When these differences are taken into consideration most of the supposed contradictions are resolved.

According to Luke 3 John came baptizing in the 15th yr. of Tiberius. Luke 3:23 stated that Yashua was about 30 years of age at this time. Hippolytus stated that Yashua was crucified in the 18th year Tiberius. Julius Africanus stated Yashua was crucified in the 16th year Tiberius. The following table shows how all of these accounts can be reconciled. Yashua was baptized around his 30th birthday in 27.75 AD. He was crucified on Passover of 30.25 AD. The total length of His ministry was 2.5 years long. Thus confirming the chronology of the gospel of John which shows only 3 Passovers.

Regards,

Wstruse
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/YashuasLife.gif

[TheForgiven]

Wow! I'm very impressed WsTruse. I thank you for sharing your labor with us. This must have taken a very long time to compile, and of course, a great deal of reading. I can now see that much of our confusion comes from the fact that when "Years" was mentioned in an ancient document, we tend to forget about the different modes of Calender used. Especially the one Julius Africanus mentioned, "Olympiad" what ever that is. LOL! But your Calendar comparison pretty much, as far as I'm concerned, nails the birth, baptism, and crucifixion of our Lord to about 3 B.C. for His Birth, His Baptism around 27 A.D., and crucifixion around 30-31 AD. Therefore, the Futurist position of 33 AD to 24 AD is not close enough, thus their idea of the 69th week being fulfilled in 33-34 AD is false. At the same time, my idea of Christ being crucified in 30AD was in error, but at least I was closer. :lol:

God bless you friend, and again, I'm very impressed with your contribution.

Now, you mentioned something about Daniel's seventy sevens ending with John in 100 AD, was this because you do not count each increment of seven as consecutive years? I saw that you multiplied the number of weeks to the amount of animals sacrificed...I think that's what you did.

Can you explain in shorter detail how you believe the end of Daniel's seventy sevens was completed around 100 AD. Because if Christ fulfilled the 69th week at His crucifixion around 30-31 AD, how do we arrive at then final week ending in 100 AD. I'm still at a loss on that.

I'm sure you'll explain everything to me friend. Again, I thank you for your contributions.

Joe

[wstruse]

Joe,

I can't take all the credit for the chronology. I have built upon the work of others as I hope others will upon this. You are correct regarding the year we tend to be somewhat myopic when looking at history. We naturally assume it is somehow based upon our current reckoning of the calendar.

As to 30 AD I actually believe the balance of evidence shows that Yashua was crucified in that year. So I believe you are correct in this date.

Regards,

Wstruse