Different Levels of Punishment in the Lake of Fire?

[yeshua_seven]

Any views on whether there are different levels of punishment in the Lake of Fire? Some scriptures seem to teach so, but I'm not sure if some people will suffer more in the Lake of Fire than others. And if there are different levels of punishment, how can that be applied? I figure being completely seperated from God is punishment enough, so I don't quite see how the punishment can be increased.

I don't believe the Lake of Fire is some torture chamber like certain hadith I saw in the Islamic Sunnah about your face melting off, then healing, then repeating over and over and other crazy things. I'm not sure if it consists of literal fire or not either, or if that "fire" is just a metaphor. Any ideas?

Also, when we are spending eternity in heaven, will God look at those in the Lake of Fire to see how they are doing or will He completely "forget" about them. God sees all things, right? So will He see in the Lake of Fire all eternity too, or does God have the power to completely withdraw His "eyes" from there and have no idea what's on their minds and stuff? I mean God knows our every thought in this life, so will the same be true of those burning in the Fire? Hmm.

[MuadDib987]

Good questions. I recently came across a free e-book called "Hope Beyond Hell" which addresses the nature of God's punishments, and concluded that they always have a remedial and beneficial purpose. When I first was introduced to the idea of what is known as Universalism, I was quite skeptical, seeing as how often Jesus spoke of hell. But looking beyond the English translations into the original text, context, and culture of the days and lands in which they were originally presented, it would seem that redemption is the Father's ultimate goal for all people everywhere, regardless of the nature of their afterlife "reward". . .

http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

[Trumpet]

Hi guys,

Please allow me to present a quiery. We believe that our God is all powerful,(omnipotent) all knowing,(omniscient) and all present, (omnipresent). God is also said to be love. We say that there are many people in this world that will never hear of the name of Jesus, and never have an opportunity to believe in Him. Yet most Christians believe that these people, along with all the bad people that ever lived will spend eternity in a lake of fire. Is this not irrational thinking? Do we believe in a God that would torture the innocent? Or is there someething missing in our theology that explains this?... I believe that this is the case. We have been taught that "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". We've also been taught that "the wages of sin is death." And since death is the ultimate separation from God, we believe that in the end, the only thing left will be two places; heaven, and hell.(lake of fire). What's God going to do? Those that He can't deal with are to be tortured forever? Did you ever think that there's something that we have missed??

I believe there is! I've found that the basic error is in that we believe that the death we receive from sin deserves torture. But God's Word says, "The WAGES of sin is death. All through the Old Testament, God mentions that when something wrong has been done, there is a payment to be made. It's a debt. Jesus came as a human with perfect blood that could pay the penalty we deserve. The penalty is DEATH, not torture. NEVER does God require torture. There's always a set penalty, and once the debt is satisfied, the debt is released.

Jesus paid the debt for everyone....but not everyone wants it, or even knows they need it. If the penalty of sin is death, and death ultimately requires an eternity in the lake of fire, then Jesus would have had to go there, and He would not be able to leave there. But He didn't go there, and He didn't stay dead, so the penalty can be satisfied by something short of torture.

The law says that if a man cannot pay a debt which is incurred by sin,he is to work as a bondservant to pay the debt. If the debt is too large to be paid, then he must work as a bondservant until the year of Jubilee sets him free. We who believe that Jesus has paid our debt, now are indebted to Jesus, and we are to be His bondservants, and obey Him. We are free of the Law, but we are indebted to Him, and He says, "sin no more".

So in the White Throne Judgement, ALL debts that have not been paid will come due. EVERYONE that didn't attain to the first Resurrection will be raised to be judged. The Word of God is a Fire, and it says in Hebrews 12:29 that God Himself is a consuming fire. In 1 Cor 3:12-15, Paul explains that men's work will be tried by fire. The White Throne Judgment IS the fire, and it says that men's works will be revealed by fire, and if there's anything left, he will receive a reward.

Now, is God more powerful than satan, or mankind,? or is He powerful enough to rectify all of mankind, the creation that He made? I'm not saying there is no punishment. But I believe we have God's judgmental system wrong, and the Word states, in a 66 book story, how all things can be returned to God's original purpose in the end.

God bless! Don

[TheForgiven]

The LOF (Lake of Fire) is a scary thought indeed. None of us want to go there, and that is why Jesus came into the world, to give us a better hope in eternal life.

The LOF is a perpetual place, as the scripture says, "The smoke of their torment rises forever...." That to mean sounds like eternity. A friend of mines father used to say, "If one eternity runs out, you have another eternity to consider...." I'm not quite sure what he means by that, but I always took that with a bit of humor.

At any rate, the LOF is a place prepared for the Devil and his fallen angels. But those who refuse to believe in Jesus are destined there as well. Some believe the LOF is the last death, and merely wipes out unbelievers and sinners from existance. Others state that because of the new body all will receive, and that cannot die, it will burn forever and ever, without dying. That is a scary notion I must admit. It seems no amount of sinning is worth that kind of abode. But these things are stated to us to make us fearful of sinning. If hell didn't exist, then more people would choose the pleasures of sinning instead of the pleasures of righteousness. And sin isn't simply a word which discribes wrong doing. Sin has to do with the lack of honor and love towards our neighbors. All sin involves the disloyalty and pain upon our neighbor. When we lie, we dishonor someone. When we commit adultery, we dishonor another. When we steal, we dishonor another. And going much deeper, when we fight back and resist someone who intends to harm us, we show that we're looking out for ourselves instead of the person doing us harm. The idea is to minimize, if not prevent, others from sinning. And fighting back increases the sin, and therefore death.

The LOF is the second death, but whether or not its eternal is beyond me. I'd have to say yet, that it is eternal.

Joe

[MHz]

Scripture may have left us some examples of the lake. Hell would be one such example, as in what those in Isa:66 go through while His servants experience more pleasant things.
The 5th trump would also seem to be a place where things are far from pleasant.
How much would it be like 'life before the flood', 24/7 violence, with the pain but without the relief of death.

It didn't take Jonah very long to 'seek prayer' as a means of escaping where God sent him, death without the blackness of sleep.

That was a pretty good post Don.



the 144,000 are the first after Jesus to be gathered into God's eternal kingdom. I seem to remember reading a verse that has them as being the ones from man that can be closest to the shores of the lake of fire without being in any danger of going there themselves. (one of those branches I should have explored further when it was there in front-of-me)

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Good questions. I recently came across a free e-book called "Hope Beyond Hell" which addresses the nature of God's punishments, and concluded that they always have a remedial and beneficial purpose. When I first was introduced to the idea of what is known as Universalism, I was quite skeptical, seeing as how often Jesus spoke of hell. But looking beyond the English translations into the original text, context, and culture of the days and lands in which they were originally presented, it would seem that redemption is the Father's ultimate goal for all people everywhere, regardless of the nature of their afterlife "reward". . .

http://tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
That's an Evangelical Universalist site. We talked about their ideas a lot in the thread called Evangelical Universalism: Gospel or Heresy?.

I think there is a lot of merit in the discussion, though I am not yet convinced. I tend towards annihilationism over universalism. It seems to fit better with the general thrust of Scripture, and the large-scale Gospel pattern which is beginning to look like it teaches that the earth is the "field of the Lord" where He sows His Seed and believers sprout up along with unbelievers who get thrown in the fire and burned up when they die.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi guys,

Please allow me to present a quiery. We believe that our God is all powerful,(omnipotent) all knowing,(omniscient) and all present, (omnipresent). God is also said to be love. We say that there are many people in this world that will never hear of the name of Jesus, and never have an opportunity to believe in Him. Yet most Christians believe that these people, along with all the bad people that ever lived will spend eternity in a lake of fire. Is this not irrational thinking?

I think its irrational, and unbiblical.


Do we believe in a God that would torture the innocent? Or is there someething missing in our theology that explains this?... I believe that this is the case. We have been taught that "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". We've also been taught that "the wages of sin is death." And since death is the ultimate separation from God, we believe that in the end, the only thing left will be two places; heaven, and hell.(lake of fire). What's God going to do? Those that He can't deal with are to be tortured forever? Did you ever think that there's something that we have missed??

I believe there is! I've found that the basic error is in that we believe that the death we receive from sin deserves torture. But God's Word says, "The WAGES of sin is death. All through the Old Testament, God mentions that when something wrong has been done, there is a payment to be made. It's a debt. Jesus came as a human with perfect blood that could pay the penalty we deserve. The penalty is DEATH, not torture. NEVER does God require torture. There's always a set penalty, and once the debt is satisfied, the debt is released.

Amen! Well stated Don. :thumb: I hadn't thought of it in exactly those terms before.


Jesus paid the debt for everyone....but not everyone wants it, or even knows they need it. If the penalty of sin is death, and death ultimately requires an eternity in the lake of fire, then Jesus would have had to go there, and He would not be able to leave there. But He didn't go there, and He didn't stay dead, so the penalty can be satisfied by something short of torture.

The law says that if a man cannot pay a debt which is incurred by sin,he is to work as a bondservant to pay the debt. If the debt is too large to be paid, then he must work as a bondservant until the year of Jubilee sets him free. We who believe that Jesus has paid our debt, now are indebted to Jesus, and we are to be His bondservants, and obey Him. We are free of the Law, but we are indebted to Him, and He says, "sin no more".

So in the White Throne Judgement, ALL debts that have not been paid will come due. EVERYONE that didn't attain to the first Resurrection will be raised to be judged. The Word of God is a Fire, and it says in Hebrews 12:29 that God Himself is a consuming fire. In 1 Cor 3:12-15, Paul explains that men's work will be tried by fire. The White Throne Judgment IS the fire, and it says that men's works will be revealed by fire, and if there's anything left, he will receive a reward.

Now, is God more powerful than satan, or mankind,? or is He powerful enough to rectify all of mankind, the creation that He made? I'm not saying there is no punishment. But I believe we have God's judgmental system wrong, and the Word states, in a 66 book story, how all things can be returned to God's original purpose in the end.

God bless! Don
I think those are very important insights Don. I see no problem in affirming God's Judgment without adding hte idea of eternal conscious torment. I don't have a firm conclusion yet, but it is close to the picuture you are painting.

Thanks!

Richard

[Elisabeth]

So in the White Throne Judgement, ALL debts that have not been paid will come due. EVERYONE that didn't attain to the first Resurrection will be raised to be judged. The Word of God is a Fire, and it says in Hebrews 12:29 that God Himself is a consuming fire. In 1 Cor 3:12-15, Paul explains that men's work will be tried by fire. The White Throne Judgment IS the fire, and it says that men's works will be revealed by fire, and if there's anything left, he will receive a reward.

I agree with trumpet that the Bible seems to speak about anihilation all the time rather than torture. In another thread I suggested that the eternal fire is part of God himself, as He had it understood in the OT sanctuary services by the fire that came from heaven on the altar and was never to go out. But what was put in that fire did consume away completely. Looking around us we see that those who use torture to achieve their own aims are never true followers of Christ. So then how could God who is the father of the true Christians who do not use torture, do even worse? Torture is an instrument of Satan who uses force to bring people to agree with him and even worse, to simply vent his revenge or bad feelings, spite and hate. I see no God in the Scriptures who uses force to get people to agree or believe in Him and neither does He have to vent any hate, spite or bad feeling. He sent Christ for those people, Christ died for them, and would He then suddenly turn around and torture those who have rejected Christ? The two do not agree together. Hence an eternally burning hell that burns sinners forever is an impossibility. If the fire is part of God however then that fire will exist forever and never go out. But sinners will be consumed since sin and sinners with sin cannot exist in the presence of God.

Elisabeth

[Brother Les]

Jesus said that He would 'come In The "Glory" of The Father'(the Fire that Consumes)....I believe that this 'coming' happened in 70AD, at The Final Judgement (White Throne Judgment) of The Mosaic Law. 'We are NOW all 'judged'....we do not have to wait until physicla death....'Hell' is being 'apart' from God....'Now'....and also when we pass from this veil of flesh.

IMO


Brother Les

[Christan]

I believe the fallen angels and the men they enticed into reprobation have committed crimes that render them perpetually evil. That all the memories of there deeds is what they will live with in a form isolated from the rest of recreation. I suppose one could ask if a person becomes one with pain and agony that they cannot feel it. I wouldnt risk it and bad shizzle is no fun to focus on yet some thrive off of it. I guess I should add here that I have been to many hell realms that exist in large part due to the internet and television. It was & they are icky to say the least.

[TheForgiven]

I believe the fallen angels and the men they enticed into reprobation have committed crimes that render them perpetually evil. That all the memories of there deeds is what they will live with in a form isolated from the rest of recreation. I suppose one could ask if a person becomes one with pain and agony that they cannot feel it. I wouldnt risk it and bad shizzle is no fun to focus on yet some thrive off of it. I guess I should add here that I have been to many hell realms that exist in large part due to the internet and television. It was & they are icky to say the least.

You know I've sometimes wondered if there is any sin which is committed in such a short life time that deserves an eternal torment. I mean, even we, who are fragile and abide a temporal tents, never wish that kind of punishment on even the most brutal or corrupt of all people. Yet God is above us, and His love is greater than ours. Thus, I can't for the life of me picture Him sending someone to hell-fire for ever and ever and ever; certainly to death yes, and punishment yes, but I can't for the life of me see Him condemning someone to eternal torment. Yet how can a life time of sinning equate to an eternity in fiery torment?

Hell is rarely read about in the scriptures. All we know is that the LOF (Lake of Fire) is the second death. And death means death, yet how can perpetual torment be considered death, especially if you are still alive? That, to me, would sound more like perpetual torture and not death, and I just don't see a loving God committing evil for evil. If we are commanded not to do such a thing, how much less the King who commands us? Is God like many Parents who tell their children not to drink and smoke, yet they do this in front of them every day? Does God command us not to wish evil on anyone, yet would build a place of eternal torment and torture? Again, I can't for the life of me believe that.

I do believe, however, that He has prepared a place of death and that place is the LOF, where the unrighteous are sentenced to death by fire.

I don't know....does anyone else have something to contribute or defend against my theories above?

Joe

[MuadDib987]

I just read through Leviticus, which recounts and clarifies the laws & commands given to Israel previously in Exodus. Chapter 19 talks of offering a sacrifice. . .

''And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will. It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, and on the next day. And if any remains until the third day, it shall be burned in the fire. And if it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination. It shall not be accepted. Therefore everyone who eats it shall bear his iniquity, because he has profaned the hallowed offering of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from his people.'

Any of the sacrifice that remains on the third day shall be burned up.
There’s something of a parallel here with Jesus, about his corpse not seeing decay, but being resurrected on the third day. Perhaps the sacrifice being 'burned with fire' is symbolic of the resurrection. The old is consumed by the new.

In Romans 12, we’re told to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice.

I Corinthians 3 tells us 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.'

Believers are to be warned to learn holiness, or face being 'saved as through fire'. Perhaps the fire is to burn up whatever yet remains to be sanctified – the more of our self that we deny, and reckon to be dead in Christ, the less 'leftover flesh' there will be that needs to be consumed on that third day.

Scripture says the God tries us like silver. Wood, hay and other debris burn in fire, but silver doesn’t – it becomes fluid, pliable, and easily shaped.

I can’t say whether judgment takes place in literal flames, or symbolic ones. Hebrews 12 echoes Deuteronomy 4 in stating that 'Our God is a consuming fire'. We would probably agree that God is not likely composed of literal flames which oxidize combustible materials with the catalyst of heat. I am convinced, though, that whatever hell is, it serves the purpose of burning away the excess and corruption we are prone to, for as long as it takes. Jesus told us that we would receive back the measure we use to judge others, and says of the proverbial debtor that he’ll not come out of prison until he has paid the last penny due. Likewise, various passages say that God will render to each of us according to our works. Whatever hell is, we can rest assured that no one will receive any more discipline that he deserves (and probably less, given that God speaks of his pleasure to be merciful). And somehow, the danger of burning in judgment for an earned measure of time and intensity holds more severity that the unscriptural popular myth of an endless eternity in hell with no chance of redemption ever.

I don’t know what form the 'fire on the third day' will take, but the correlation between God and the fire and judgment is there. What will be burning judgment for some will be resurrection for others – it just depends on your state when the time comes, and how much 'leftover flesh' we bear. As individuals, our current responsibility is to humbly accommodate God’s work in us. As we deny ourselves, reckon the old nature dead, and walk in the spirit instead of the corrupt, defective manner we’ve known from our youth, our soul (the silver?) is purged of its flammable impurities. I am convinced that the most important thing we can do is to repent – and not once only, but to adopt it as a constant attitude of humility.

One day is as a thousand years with the Lord. Perhaps that third day in the Leviticus passage is a gesture towards this third millennium, along with the story of the Good Samaritan, who hospitalized the beaten, robbed victim at a local inn, telling the innkeeper 'Here’s payment for 2 days, and if he needs to stay longer, I’ll pay the extra when I come back.'

[eliyahu]

I read a book by Lee Strobel entitled The Case For Faith. There is a chapter entitled "A Loving God Would Never Torture People In Hell." In it, Lee interviews J. P. Moreland, Phd. on this topic. He helped me come to some conclusions in the issue of eternal punishment in the "lake of fire." The symbolic word "fire" is often employed by the prophets and Jesus to reference God's anger and His judgment issuing from His justice and wrath. So, while no one living really knows for sure what hell is like (unless we really can trust people's life after death hell experiences, but for the sake of sticking to scripture this is futile), we know what language God used to describe death for the wicked. "No peace..." "the worm dies not and the fire does not quench..." "outer darkness... Where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." "the lake of fire which is the second death..." "eternal torment..." etc. etc.

The concept is that first of all, humans are (although most of us are cut off from God's salvation) are created as God's children in His image. Part of this image of God is our eternal nature. God chose to creat us for an eternal purpose of enjoying an unveiled and unbreakable relationship with Him, thus bringing pleasure to His heart and ours and in this way glorifying Him eternally. God cannot be destroyed, neither can His very children who have the breath of divine life in them.

Although it is easy to dismiss the symbolic language of "fire," etc. as a liscence to simply pack our personal suspicious interpretations into, we must not depart too far from the purpose that such language is used. We might be offended at the thought of others we love being in eternal torment. It seems unfair and God is not unfair at all. But we have to be bold enough to face reality. We have to trust that God is just and merciful. We have to trust that God does not have to compromise His love and mercy for His wrath and justice to be met. Otherwise we must trust our own fallable selves with no sure foundation of truth.

"Fire" is poetic imagery for divine wrath. "Darkness" (Jesus' "outer darkness") is poetic language for the absence of the reality of God and His manifest presence, the absence or even concealment of divine truth. Fire and Darkness cannot literally co-exist. But being condemned to an existance independant from any form of communication with God (to be saved or find mercy) is a huge part of what God's wrath is. That is true "darkness." That is true "fire." It is the opposite of His mercy- which extends itself toward all who would freely receive His gift of mercy in establishing an eternal and unbreakable fellowship with Himself- hence "heaven."

To be condemned to an eternal and conscious existance that is fully experienced in a resurrected body seperated from any hope or chance of receiving divine mercy is justice. It is the glory of God and His mercy that anyone ever has a chance at establishing a heavenly relationship with God with the problem of sin utterly dealt with at the cross.

Excactly what the penalty is for a person who dies without faith in the light that they did actually have in their lifetime is left up to simply trusting in God's perfect justice. What is scripturally sure is this: there is no more hope for them. They will not live in peace. They will be fully aware of the reason that they are in the situation they are then in after the final day of judgment. There will be ultimate justice met out personally to each person. People will get what they deserve. If one decided to live and die serving themselves as their own god, than they will be left for eternity to live with themselves with full knowledge of the utter unworthyness they have to be served as a god. They will know that they had consciously rejected whatever light of truth about God that they had in their life. It will be worse for those who are more guilty of rejecting truth. It will be worse yet for those who knew better yet chose to live a live of utter rebellion against God and died that way with numerous sins on their account.

How God can and will meet out justice to people like Hitler and Adolph Eichman, etc. is incomprehensable to us now. God's justice cannot betray the infinite and eternal value of every human soul. If one dies with the guilt of coldblooded murder on their head, how will he be justly judged for his crimes against the eternal God and His eternal children? How much more does one deserve for orchestrated systematic genocide and torture of millions of people? Absolute justice is promised to be served somehow from God's perfect judgment.

All sin is, on one level or another, an eternal crime against God. He is infinite. To choose to sin against Him deserves some sort of infinite penalty. This reasoning places the "lake of fire" as an eternal place of torment. "Gnashing of teeth" and "weeping" are symptoms of one experiencing tremendous feelings of guilt and despair. People will not be blaming anyone else or blaming God for their punishment in eternity. They will understand God's justice from their judgment served to them at the throne of God's judgment. I suspect that they will have had some sort of taste of God's goodness just from the experience of being personally judged by God, face to face. This would add tremendously to the negativity of experiencing eternity without Him. Knowing that you denied His love will be terrible. Proverbs says that "a husband's jealousy is like an unquenchable flame." God is often pictured as a jealous husband to His people. How much more does one deserve for denying this husband's love, prostituting themselves out to to other lovers and/or gods? That is one reason why Revelation pictures the terenal state of the condemned as a "lake of fire."

[yeshua_seven]

Well I don't question the reality of eternity in punishment, for I believe it with all my heart. What I'm unsure of is the nature of the Lake of Fire (LOF). I don't believe the LOF is some physical torture chamber, but it is a mental torture. Many on earth have experienced mental torture, but we call it depression and hoplessness. To me, the LOF is just being completely seperated from God forever. Whether people can talk to other people in there I do not know. I don't believe it is physical torture though, meaning things like hunger and thirst.

I know the Bible talks of things like worms and other things, and some believe that in hell worms will be eating people's bodies and things like that, but I reject that. That sounds more like the earthly grave.

To me, it doesn't make any sense for God to completely destroy someone. Where is the justice and vindication in that? The only true justice is complete seperation from God forever. We can't forget that God's nature is not just love, but justice. I wouldn't see the point in sharing the gospel so much if these people would just be completely non-existent if they reject Jesus. It would make sense to share the gospel with people you want to spend eternity with such as family and friends, but why would we go to the otherside of the world to risk our lives in sharing the gospel with another if the worst that can happen is complete destruction. Instead, people will either spend eternity with God, or eternity without God.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I read a book by Lee Strobel entitled The Case For Faith. There is a chapter entitled "A Loving God Would Never Torture People In Hell." In it, Lee interviews J. P. Moreland, Phd. on this topic. He helped me come to some conclusions in the issue of eternal punishment in the "lake of fire." The symbolic word "fire" is often employed by the prophets and Jesus to reference God's anger and His judgment issuing from His justice and wrath. So, while no one living really knows for sure what hell is like (unless we really can trust people's life after death hell experiences, but for the sake of sticking to scripture this is futile), we know what language God used to describe death for the wicked. "No peace..." "the worm dies not and the fire does not quench..." "outer darkness... Where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." "the lake of fire which is the second death..." "eternal torment..." etc. etc.

Hey Eliyahu,

I'm glad you jumped in on this one. It is a difficult topic. I can use all the help I can get.

The concept is that first of all, humans are (although most of us are cut off from God's salvation) are created as God's children in His image. Part of this image of God is our eternal nature. God chose to creat us for an eternal purpose of enjoying an unveiled and unbreakable relationship with Him, thus bringing pleasure to His heart and ours and in this way glorifying Him eternally. God cannot be destroyed, neither can His very children who have the breath of divine life in them.

I think there is a problem here. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that any of God's creatures are naturally immortal. On the contrary, the Bible declares that God "only hath immortality" (1 Tim 6:15). The words I hightlighted red sound like you are saying that immortality is one of God's communicable attributes. Are you familar with this idea? The attributes of God are divided into two classes, those which are "passed on" or "communicated" to we His creatures, and those which are not. Here are some classic examples:

Incommunicable Attributes: Omniscience, Omnipotence, Immutability, Eternality

Communicable Attributes: Love, Wisdom, Will, Awareness

I think Immortality belongs to God alone. It is "shared" or communicated with humans only on a conditional basis. Our existence depends entirely upon Him. I see no reason to assume that He is incapable of annihilating anything He has created. Sure, He may choose not to destroy His sinful creatures, but He could if He wanted to. So we do not have immortality. Our life is in His hands, and always will be.


Although it is easy to dismiss the symbolic language of "fire," etc. as a liscence to simply pack our personal suspicious interpretations into, we must not depart too far from the purpose that such language is used. We might be offended at the thought of others we love being in eternal torment. It seems unfair and God is not unfair at all. But we have to be bold enough to face reality. We have to trust that God is just and merciful. We have to trust that God does not have to compromise His love and mercy for His wrath and justice to be met. Otherwise we must trust our own fallable selves with no sure foundation of truth.

"Fire" is poetic imagery for divine wrath. "Darkness" (Jesus' "outer darkness") is poetic language for the absence of the reality of God and His manifest presence, the absence or even concealment of divine truth. Fire and Darkness cannot literally co-exist. But being condemned to an existance independant from any form of communication with God (to be saved or find mercy) is a huge part of what God's wrath is. That is true "darkness." That is true "fire." It is the opposite of His mercy- which extends itself toward all who would freely receive His gift of mercy in establishing an eternal and unbreakable fellowship with Himself- hence "heaven."

That's a very good explanation of those words.


To be condemned to an eternal and conscious existance that is fully experienced in a resurrected body seperated from any hope or chance of receiving divine mercy is justice. It is the glory of God and His mercy that anyone ever has a chance at establishing a heavenly relationship with God with the problem of sin utterly dealt with at the cross.

JUSTICE? What do you mean by that word? To me, Justice means that the punishment exactly matches the crime. Is there any one on earth capable of committing an infinite crime worthy of eternal torment? I see not how. (I see now that you have addressed this below ... I'll answer there.)



And where in the Bible does it say that the damned receive glorified resurrection bodies that can never die? Is there any reason to assume that? I see none. The glorified bodies are given only to those whom God promises to glorify in the image of His Son:
Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. The damned do not receive glorified immortal bodies. And besides, we are told that they will die again in the second death.

And please show me the verses that say the damned are "seperated from any hope." Is there really a verse that says any creature is forever denied any hope of God's mercy?


Excactly what the penalty is for a person who dies without faith in the light that they did actually have in their lifetime is left up to simply trusting in God's perfect justice. What is scripturally sure is this: there is no more hope for them. They will not live in peace. They will be fully aware of the reason that they are in the situation they are then in after the final day of judgment.

I think this is a very important point - you again assert that God has created beings that He supernaturally keeps alive and removes all hope so that they are eternally tormented beyond any human suffering ever inflicted in the history of the world. I have grave reservations about this doctrine. It appears to contradict the fundamental atrributes of God such as LOVE and WISDOM and GOODNESS. There is much to discuss here.


There will be ultimate justice met out personally to each person. People will get what they deserve. If one decided to live and die serving themselves as their own god, than they will be left for eternity to live with themselves with full knowledge of the utter unworthyness they have to be served as a god. They will know that they had consciously rejected whatever light of truth about God that they had in their life. It will be worse for those who are more guilty of rejecting truth. It will be worse yet for those who knew better yet chose to live a live of utter rebellion against God and died that way with numerous sins on their account.

I don't understand how your doctrine coheres with the Gospel, which clearly declares that we did NOT "get what we deserve." Are you saying that only the damned "get what they deserve"?

You also say that "they will be left for eternity to live with themselves" - that seems to be a fundamental contradiction with Scripture. Only the redeemed will "live for eternity."


How God can and will meet out justice to people like Hitler and Adolph Eichman, etc. is incomprehensable to us now. God's justice cannot betray the infinite and eternal value of every human soul. If one dies with the guilt of coldblooded murder on their head, how will he be justly judged for his crimes against the eternal God and His eternal children? How much more does one deserve for orchestrated systematic genocide and torture of millions of people? Absolute justice is promised to be served somehow from God's perfect judgment.

All sin is, on one level or another, an eternal crime against God. He is infinite. To choose to sin against Him deserves some sort of infinite penalty.

I understand the idea that any sin against God is infinite, but I don't believe it is a valid solution because as soon as we toss an infinity into our equation, we can prove anything. All rules are busted. It's like dividing by zero. We don't know what we mean by "crime" or "justice" when one of the values in the equation is set to infinity. All we can do is finite arithmetic.

What I'm getting at is that our concept of crime, punishment, and justice makes no sense if we assert that all crimes have the same infinite value. The fact that you appeal to the REALLY BIG crimes of Hitler to make you point proves that your thinking is not consistent on this point. If all sins are sins against God, then every sin is infinite, and that one time you held a grudge against you brother is mathematically identical to Hitlers genocide of millions.


This reasoning places the "lake of fire" as an eternal place of torment.

Why not understand it to be a place of annihilation where fire does its perfect work of utterly consumming everything thrown into it?


"Gnashing of teeth" and "weeping" are symptoms of one experiencing tremendous feelings of guilt and despair. People will not be blaming anyone else or blaming God for their punishment in eternity. They will understand God's justice from their judgment served to them at the throne of God's judgment. I suspect that they will have had some sort of taste of God's goodness just from the experience of being personally judged by God, face to face. This would add tremendously to the negativity of experiencing eternity without Him. Knowing that you denied His love will be terrible. Proverbs says that "a husband's jealousy is like an unquenchable flame." God is often pictured as a jealous husband to His people. How much more does one deserve for denying this husband's love, prostituting themselves out to to other lovers and/or gods? That is one reason why Revelation pictures the terenal state of the condemned as a "lake of fire."
Well .... can you imagine treating anyone the way you imagine God will be treating His enemies? If not, perhaps we need to rethink our understanding of God and how He treats others.

You mentioned that you are not of the Reformed/Calvinist faith, so you can beleive that God really truly loves everyone, correct? What happened to that amazing love that sent His Son to die for us WHILE WE WERE HITLERIAN SINNERS? If God could save us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, what is stopping Him from loving those who have yet to repent? Why would he chooose to add to their misery for eternity? What does He gain by that?

As I said, there is much to discuss. I'm glad you jumped into the conversation.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there Yeshua_Seven, :yo:

It's been a while! Glad you stopped by to help with this study.



To me, it doesn't make any sense for God to completely destroy someone. Where is the justice and vindication in that? The only true justice is complete seperation from God forever. We can't forget that God's nature is not just love, but justice.
Why would that be true justice? In what way does "complete seperation from God forever" satisfy any definition of "justice."


I wouldn't see the point in sharing the gospel so much if these people would just be completely non-existent if they reject Jesus. It would make sense to share the gospel with people you want to spend eternity with such as family and friends, but why would we go to the otherside of the world to risk our lives in sharing the gospel with another if the worst that can happen is complete destruction. Instead, people will either spend eternity with God, or eternity without God.
What about the value of the LIFE we have in Christ? Is it not the ultimate value that LOVE demands we proclaim to all?

The Gospel is this:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It matters not if we understand "death" according to the normal literal meanings like annihilation, extermination, termination, or in the spiritualized sense of "separation from God." In either case, the GOSPEL remains, and is defined as the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

It seems very odd that you would say that there is no motivation to evangelize if the damned are annihilated. I just don't see the connection.

Richard

[eliyahu]

And where in the Bible does it say that the damned receive glorified resurrection bodies that can never die? Is there any reason to assume that? I see none. The glorified bodies are given only to those whom God promises to glorify in the image of His Son... The damned do not receive glorified immortal bodies. And besides, we are told that they will die again in the second death. Isa 66:24 " 24 'And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.'
This language calls for eternity. Also Rev 20:10 "... the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." And Rev 20:13-14 "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." And Rev 14:10-11 "... he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night." And Isa 48:22 'There is no peace,' says the Lord, 'for the wicked.' And Isaiah 57 20-21 even compare the wicked's fate to the unrest of a tossing sea: "20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace,' says my God, 'for the wicked.'"

I have to get ready for work now, bye.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Isa 66:24 " 24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

This language calls for eternity.

It was the worm that "shall not die" and it was the fire that shall not be quenched. It is quite possible that the proper interpretation is that the worm "shall not die" and the fire "shall not be quenched" before they fulfill their intended purpose of utterly consumming the flesh of the dead.


Also Rev 20:10 "... the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." And Rev 20:13-14 "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." And Rev 14:10-11 "... he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night." And Isa 48:22 “There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.” And Isaiah 57 20-21 even compare the wicked's fate to the unrest of a tossing sea: "20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea; for it cannot be quiet, and its waters toss up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”"

I have to get ready for work now, bye.
Yes, those are the best verses to support your case for never ending torment. But they contradict other verses that say the wicked dead will be annihilated, and so we must weigh them against each other, and test the entire doctrine of "eternal life in death" with the Biblical doctrine that only the redeemed will live forever.

We know we need to dig a little deeper when we find ourselves saying things like "the saved will have eternal life in heaven, and the damned will have eternal life in hell." The Bible says nothing about the damned haveing "eternal life." On the contrary, eternal life is contrasted with the "second death."

I look forward to digging deep into this with you,

Richard

[yeshua_seven]

I don't see it as that terrible for people to be completely destroyed. That would actually be a blessing to me to know that even if I can't lead someone to the truth, at least they will be completely destroyed. That, however, goes completely against my understanding of God.

All I can say about justice is that I can only understand true justice as forever seperation from God.

It would be very challenging when sharing the gospel with others that eternal punishment does not exist. Over a billion Muslims in the world believe in eternal punishment, and most Christians believe in it, so how would you convince so many people that eternal punishment doesn't exists. Most Muslims for example would rather remain a Muslim and try to attain salvation through good works, and if they are wrong, the worst that can happen is their existence vanishes as if they never existed in the first place. Such a view just doesn't fit.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I don't see it as that terrible for people to be completely destroyed.

Really? So murder is no big deal?

And car wrecks - their fine so long as everybody dies?

Are you saying life has no value if there is no eternal torment?

What I am trying to communicate is the this - the value of life does not derive from the concept of eternal torment. The value of the Gospel does not derive from the meaning of death. Whether the death is annihilation or eternal conscious torment, the value of the Everlasing Life in Christ is the same. The VALUE is positive, it is defined by LIFE, not DEATH. Death is bad only because Life is Good.

The Goodness of Life does not derive from the negation of the badness of death.

All creation began as VERY GOOD with no mention of death. Death was introduced into the system and is a negation of the goodness of life.


That would actually be a blessing to me to know that even if I can't lead someone to the truth, at least they will be completely destroyed. That, however, goes completely against my understanding of God.
Ahh ... so you are more compasionate than God? It would be a BLESSING to you to know that someone you love is not being supernaturally upheld in existence for the sole purpose of suffering everlasting unspeakabley horrific conscious torment? Why would it be a blessing if it contradicts the teaching of the Bible and the will of God? Do you not delight in ALL that God does? (As an aside, Calvinists have attempted to justify this doctrine by stating how much they DELIGHT in the idea of sinners suffering in hell. That alone should warn us to tread carefully here - the moment we lose our humanity in favor of doctrine, we know we have errred in our theology.)

See the problem? Your heart, your mind, and your conscience unite to declare with one voice that the idea of eternal conscious torment is the worst possible evil that could be imagined, yet you believe it is the truth of God taught in the Bible.

I think we need to talk about this. I think we need to clarify our understanding of what the Bible really teaches about the nature of God, and the meaning of justice, judgment, mercy, and hell.



All I can say about justice is that I can only understand true justice as forever seperation from God.

If "forever seperation from God" truly gives you the ability to "understand true justice" then you should be able to explain the connection. Why do you believe it has to be an eternal separation? Why do you believe that God is unable to find a way to ultimately reconcile all sinners to Himself? Has He insufficient strength? Insufficient wisdom? Insufficient love? Is the resistance of the sinful creature greater than the Goodness of the Creator?

There are many things that must be discussed before accepting the tradition of eternal conscious torment as a Biblical doctrine.

Richard

[Rose]

Hi All, :yo:

When I read:

Rev. 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

And then:

Rev. 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

I come to the understanding from reading those verses that all those outside the gates, are the ones who have not partaken of the "Water of Life" that the Spirit, and the Bride are biding to come and drink. I think that all that is required for those who are outside the open gates (sinners who have not accepted salvation through Christ) to enter in is to acknowledge their thirst.....that is to repent and then drink of the "Water of Life". As long as they refuse they will remain outside the gates.

Rose

[MuadDib987]

For what it's worth, I read a pretty good article this week regarding the Lake of Fire. . .

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

The most notable point (for me, anyway) was that Jesus likely didn't issue 19 chapters of Revelation saturated with symbols & metaphors, only to switch to literal things in chapter 20, including a literal lake of literal fire, etc.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It would be very challenging when sharing the gospel with others that eternal punishment does not exist.

Why is that? Paul preached the Gospel without ever mentioning "eteranal conscious torment." His Gospel was the Gospel of Everlasting Life in Christ. He compared that LIFE with DEATH - and the normal meaning of such a comparison is the same as conscious existence versus annihilation. The word "death" as defined in the normal and literal sense has nothing to do with ongoing conscious torment in the afterlife.

So my point is this - we should be preaching the Gospel the way the Bible preaches the Gospel, which declares that all should repent from sin and believe in Christ to receive everlasting LIFE. The alternative is DEATH. The exact nature of that death is not essential to the proclamation of the Gospel, and you shouldn't have to mention it when proclaiming Jesus Christ, because the the truth is that we know very little about it anyway because God left it somewhat ambiguous in His Word.


Over a billion Muslims in the world believe in eternal punishment, and most Christians believe in it, so how would you convince so many people that eternal punishment doesn't exists. Most Muslims for example would rather remain a Muslim and try to attain salvation through good works, and if they are wrong, the worst that can happen is their existence vanishes as if they never existed in the first place. Such a view just doesn't fit.
Since when do we determine Christian Doctrine by what the Muslims believe? Let us cling to the Holy Word and learn from God.

Great chatting bro - these are really important issues.

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

For what it's worth, I read a pretty good article this week regarding the Lake of Fire. . .

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

The most notable point (for me, anyway) was that Jesus likely didn't issue 19 chapters of Revelation saturated with symbols & metaphors, only to switch to literal things in chapter 20, including a literal lake of literal fire, etc.
Thanks MuadDinb987,

That is an EXCELLENT article. I would say it is a "must read" for anyone interested in this issue.

Richard

[eliyahu]

Really? So murder is no big deal?

And car wrecks - their fine so long as everybody dies?

Are you saying life has no value if there is no eternal torment?

What I am trying to communicate is the this - the value of life does not derive from the concept of eternal torment. The value of the Gospel does not derive from the meaning of death. Whether the death is annihilation or eternal conscious torment, the value of the Everlasing Life in Christ is the same. The VALUE is positive, it is defined by LIFE, not DEATH. Death is bad only because Life is Good.

The Goodness of Life does not derive from the negation of the badness of death.

All creation began as VERY GOOD with no mention of death. Death was introduced into the system and is a negation of the goodness of life.

Ahh ... so you are more compasionate than God? It would be a BLESSING to you to know that someone you love is not being supernaturally upheld in existence for the sole purpose of suffering everlasting unspeakabley horrific conscious torment? Why would it be a blessing if it contradicts the teaching of the Bible and the will of God? Do you not delight in ALL that God does? (As an aside, Calvinists have attempted to justify this doctrine by stating how much they DELIGHT in the idea of sinners suffering in hell. That alone should warn us to tread carefully here - the moment we lose our humanity in favor of doctrine, we know we have errred in our theology.)
I just want to say that that was weel said in the right spirit and I am edified by this :thumb:. Nothing against the person you were speaking to. Although I remain confident in eternal punishment, I agree with your whole modus operandi there.


See the problem? Your heart, your mind, and your conscience unite to declare with one voice that the idea of eternal conscious torment is the worst possible evil that could be imagined, yet you believe it is the truth of God taught in the Bible. What if we believce what we understand God's word to be saying and yet we cannot fullly comprehend the fullness of it? Its like when we look at Hubble's photos, we know what we are seeing but we do not have the ability to comprehend things so vast. Beholding the glory if the living God Himself is the same way to all of us finite humans. W are not required to fully wrap our minds around something to believe it. If God punished unbelievers forever, can't we trust His justice and His perfect judgment? Can't we expect that an infinitely wise and creative God can judge individuals forever in a perfectly just fasion? Why must we fit God inot a box that seems comprehensable?

No one actually deserves to be rewarded forever as believers will be. Everyone actually derserves to be punished for our sins. How about this, Jesus paid the penalty for man's sins on the cross. When He died, death could not keep its hold on Him. He was innocent of death's sentence upon sin. So He utterly overcame death, sin and punishment on behalf of all who would freely choose to have faith in Him and obey the gospel. But what about when a man dies unbelieving and is then without any way for an eternal and innocent substitute to pay His debt of guilt to God's justice? Death keeps its hold on him. It is logical.


Why do you believe that God is unable to find a way to ultimately reconcile all sinners to Himself? Has He insufficient strength? Insufficient wisdom? Insufficient love? Is the resistance of the sinful creature greater than the Goodness of the Creator?
Richard
"God has apponted men once to die and then the judgment." Like Jesus' "judgtment" when He died, we face an eternally unchangable judgment after death. So say the scriptures. God keeps His word. His word gives nothing at all but hopelessness and despair to those who die in sin. That is the stream of thought from the beginning to the end of the Bible.

"Is the resistance of the sinful creature greater than the Goodness of the Creator? " God does not "over-ride" a person's free will. That would be stealing- breaking His own command. He also does not lie. He said "there is no peace for the wicked." He said "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" in regret and despair. He said there would be "torment."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I just want to say that that was weel said in the right spirit and I am edified by this :thumb:. Nothing against the person you were speaking to. Although I remain confident in eternal punishment, I agree with your whole modus operandi there.

Thanks bro! Your comments are very encouraging. because that's how I hope all our conversations will go here - we might strongly disagree about various interpretations, but always with respect and brotherly love.




See the problem? Your heart, your mind, and your conscience unite to declare with one voice that the idea of eternal conscious torment is the worst possible evil that could be imagined, yet you believe it is the truth of God taught in the Bible.

What if we believce what we understand God's word to be saying and yet we cannot fullly comprehend the fullness of it? Its like when we look at Hubble's photos, we know what we are seeing but we do not have the ability to comprehend things so vast. Beholding the glory if the living God Himself is the same way to all of us finite humans. W are not required to fully wrap our minds around something to believe it. If God punished unbelievers forever, can't we trust His justice and His perfect judgment? Can't we expect that an infinitely wise and creative God can judge individuals forever in a perfectly just fasion? Why must we fit God inot a box that seems comprehensable?

That's a very good point, and I agree that we must tread carefully here, especially because of the limits of our understanding. But the problem does not seem to be one of lack of comprehension. On the contrary, the problem arises when we accurately comprehend the doctrine. What is the "mystery" of eternal conscious torment? It is what it is. There is no mystery - it is ETERNAL HELL imposed by God on His creatures. This causes real problems for anyone who thinks about it much.

For me, the primary problem is that our normal definitions of "justice" and "mercy" are destroyed. You KNOW that no one could ever do anything to you that would motivate you to keep that person existing for the sole purpose of pouring out the fury of your indignation upon him. But you feel you must believe that God has not trouble punishing his finite creatures for eternity. That does not seem coherent to me. I know that the meager little bit of mercy in me would stop me from torturing anyone for any length of time, and I know that God's mercy is infinitely greater than mine, so I can not believer that He would every DELIGHT in eternaly tormenting His weak creatures. And since everything I know of compassion and love and mercy comes from God, I can not believe that I am more merciful and loving than God. So I am convinced that the traditional position relating to hell is a HUGE misinterpretation of the Bible. But I could be wrong, and so I very much desire to dig deep into the Biblical doctrine with you and our brothers and sisters in this forum.


No one actually deserves to be rewarded forever as believers will be. Everyone actually derserves to be punished for our sins.

Agreed. :thumb:

But that only exacerbates the problem of why God shows mercy to some, and punishes others for ever and ever and ever with unending pain and suffering. Why should I go to heaven and someone else goes to hell?


How about this, Jesus paid the penalty for man's sins on the cross. When He died, death could not keep its hold on Him. He was innocent of death's sentence upon sin. So He utterly overcame death, sin and punishment on behalf of all who would freely choose to have faith in Him and obey the gospel. But what about when a man dies unbelieving and is then without any way for an eternal and innocent substitute to pay His debt of guilt to God's justice? Death keeps its hold on him. It is logical.

Sure, death keeps a hold on him, unless and untill he turns to the Lord. Why do you assume that there is an expiration date on the offer of salvation? How do you justify that? The popular doctrine that your fate is sealed at the moment of death is not taught in the Bible.


"God has apponted men once to die and then the judgment." Like Jesus' "judgtment" when He died, we face an eternally unchangable judgment after death. So say the scriptures. God keeps His word. His word gives nothing at all but hopelessness and despair to those who die in sin. That is the stream of thought from the beginning to the end of the Bible.

Please quote the Scriptures that say there is no hope after physical death.


"Is the resistance of the sinful creature greater than the Goodness of the Creator? " God does not "over-ride" a person's free will. That would be stealing- breaking His own command. He also does not lie. He said "there is no peace for the wicked." He said "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" in regret and despair. He said there would be "torment."
Huh? God over-rides the will of His creatures when ever He wants. He is our heavenly FATHER. What father has never over-ridden the will of his child?

We need to re-evalute this doctrine from its biblical foundation. The popular teachings are filled with logical and biblical errors. I very much look forward to digging deep on this with you.

Richard

[eliyahu]

Why should I go to heaven and someone else goes to hell?
I think that this Q is the real heart of the issue here. This is what the focus may be better on.


Huh? God over-rides the will of His creatures when ever He wants. He is our heavenly FATHER. What father has never over-ridden the will of his child?

I am not of the reformed tradition. I am not even a one point Calvinist. I over-rides my children's will all the time. I cannot go inside their mind and change it though. I can't make my son want to eat his rice. I can only make him eat it. If God were to over-ride people's wills, than He would be evil if anyone went to hell at all. It would amount to pagan and Islamic "fate" in the hands of the divine.

I have a problem of thinking that a person might suffer in the same way constantly, tormented, forever without end. It really seems unfair. But the fact is that we do not know excactly how God punishes people forever. We know that the word repeatedly states that He does though. I don't need to figure out how God could fairly do such. I just need to stand in awe of God and be afraid of being cast into that place, as Jesus commanded us to be. Whatever happens in hell or the lake of fire, it is just.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Why should I go to heaven and someone else goes to hell?

I think that this Q is the real heart of the issue here. This is what the focus may be better on.

It would be a very interesting study, but I don't see how that could help clarify the meaning of "everlasting punishment" or "second death" or "hell."


I am not of the reformed tradition. I am not even a one point Calvinist. I over-rides my children's will all the time. I cannot go inside their mind and change it though. I can't make my son want to eat his rice. I can only make him eat it. If God were to over-ride people's wills, than He would be evil if anyone went to hell at all. It would amount to pagan and Islamic "fate" in the hands of the divine.




Ahh .. I see. I didn't realize exactly what you meant by "over-ride" ... you meant "control like a robot." But that's not what I meant in the quote you were answering. I had asked:
"Is the resistance of the sinful creature greater than the Goodness of the Creator?"

and you answered
"God does not "over-ride" a person's free will. That would be stealing- breaking His own command. He also does not lie. He said "there is no peace for the wicked." He said "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" in regret and despair. He said there would be "torment."But that assumes that the only way for God to reconcile a resistent person to Himself is by brute-force or overriding their will. I don't think that's the only possibility. God can reconcile people to Himself through WISDOM and LOVE and SELF-SACRIFICE through CHRIST - where is the "overriding" of our will in all that?

To understand God on this point, we need only think about Him in the terms He has defined Himself. He is our FATHER, and so we know His Love by understanding the love we have for our children. You would die for anyone of your children, would you not Eliyahu? That is a perfect picture of the Gospel Love of God. Could you dream of eternally punishing anyone for any crime against you? Could you dream of tormenting you children if they failed to love or obey you? Of course not. Sure, you would PUNISH them with the purpose of reformation but never for mere pleasure of retribution.

This is the fundamental problem with the doctrine of eternal conscious torment: As far as I can tell, it serves no GOOD in God's universe. It is by its very nature an evil that is LITERALLY infinite in magnitude - how can we attribute it to God? It's purpose is not to reform the sinner or to make anything better, but rather to pour out upon a utterly weak, helpless, and pitiful creature the infinite unforgiving merciless wrath of his Creator. Where is the justice in that? Is this what the Bible really teaches?


I have a problem of thinking that a person might suffer in the same way constantly, tormented, forever without end. It really seems unfair. But the fact is that we do not know excactly how God punishes people forever. We know that the word repeatedly states that He does though. I don't need to figure out how God could fairly do such. I just need to stand in awe of God and be afraid of being cast into that place, as Jesus commanded us to be. Whatever happens in hell or the lake of fire, it is just.
Very well stated! :thumb:

I agree that we should never reject a plain teaching of Scripture solely because it eludes the grasp of our finite understanding. But the problem here is that we understand this teaching all too well, and it appears to me that the Bible is not nearly as explicit on this point as you suggest. You admit that "It really seems unfair" - and that's a big part of the issue. Unfair means unrighteous, and the Gospel is CENTERED on the concept of RIGHTEOUSNESS. How can we have a "black hole of unrighteousness" right in the heart of the Gospel? Its been two thousand years since the Gospel began to be preached. Where are the learned explanations from the saints of yesteryear? I have searched far and wide and have found that ALL the arguments for eternal conscious torment arise more from human tradition than the Bible.

Remember, its not just for our own selves that we need to understand this doctrine. It is the first question an unbeliever raises when they resist the Gospel, and it is a doctrine that has eternally tormented every tender-hearted Chirst-like Christian who has ever been impaled by it.

It is my contention that the few verses used to establish the doctrine of eternal conscious torment are being misinterpretated. A simple proof is this - the greatest teaching of the Bible is that God will reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself through Christ. In context, ALL THINGS is clearly EVERYTHING. This means there will be no "place" for a multitude of screaching agonizing creatures broiling in everlasting pain and sorrow.

There is much to discuss. We will need to begin with the primary "proof passages" of ECT.

Richard

[eliyahu]

I think we are quite clear with each other on this issue so far. I am confident of conscious eternal damnation. You are not sure what to believe about that. I respect that. I don't have an uneasiness about my interpretation about the statements about eternal punishment. I just cannot really contain the magnitude and depth of that punishment.

As for "all things" being "reconciled" to Christ one day, I don't take that to mean the people and demons in the lake of fire. I think that these kind of statements are to be understood alongside of other ones like the statements about damnation. If we are that precise with our exegesis the Bible becomes very confusiong. It wasn't meant to be taken so scientifically literally like that. I beleive to take that statement about "all things" in that way is to interpret it with a non-Hebraic mentality. Not to insult you or anyone at all :thumb:. I jst don't see that kind of aproach to scriptures as being in the same vein that the authors of scripture held. Maybe you do.

What is "good" about eternal conscious damnation? Well, I think that the fact that God's "goodness" in a person being eternally damned is vindicated in apposition to the sinners in hell's denial and rejection of the testimony of the God of truth which they were shown on some level during their lives. Is that sentence clear? God is vindicated by their eternal consciousness experiencing a state of seperatedness from any trace of God's goodness. All that they have is their own self. All that they have is the consciousness of their folly. All that they have is regret and despair. And they have torment as punishment for their crimes on whatever level that is just. Does that torment ever end? We can only guess. But if it does end, they are still condemned to suffer in dark solitude eternally. They still roam the terrible expanse of isolation from God and His goodness.

One of my teachers, Stephen J. Hill explained damnation this way: there is no sign of the goodness of the Father there. In life, all people are blessed with myriad tokens of the Father's goodness and love, all of the time. Any provision, any comfort, any freedom, any relief, any opportunity, any choice, any pleasure, any hope, any simple pleasures, any sanity, any sense of contentment, any rest is always a gift and token of the Father's goodness. If someone went somewhere where there was absolutely no sign of the reality of the Father who is good, that would be hell alone. Let alone any added justice of punishment to worsen the situation. Let alone the consciousness of one's lost opportunity to know and enjoy God forever.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I think we are quite clear with each other on this issue so far. I am confident of conscious eternal damnation. You are not sure what to believe about that. I respect that. I don't have an uneasiness about my interpretation about the statements about eternal punishment. I just cannot really contain the magnitude and depth of that punishment.
It sounds like we are understanding each other well.


As for "all things" being "reconciled" to Christ one day, I don't take that to mean the people and demons in the lake of fire. I think that these kind of statements are to be understood alongside of other ones like the statements about damnation. If we are that precise with our exegesis the Bible becomes very confusiong. It wasn't meant to be taken so scientifically literally like that. I beleive to take that statement about "all things" in that way is to interpret it with a non-Hebraic mentality. Not to insult you or anyone at all :thumb:. I jst don't see that kind of aproach to scriptures as being in the same vein that the authors of scripture held. Maybe you do.

That's a very important insight and I agree with it in general. But I really don't think I was overextending the meaning of "all things" in that particular passage because Paul went out of his way to specify what he meant by "all things":

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Now this doesn't conclusively settle the issue, but it does give warrent to believe that there will be nothing "unreconciled" to God when all is said and done.

I was listening to one explanation yesterday that suggested that "reconciled should be understood as "put under the rule of" so that those eternally suffering in hell were "reconciled" to the "rule" of Christ. But that seems absurd because the "reconcilation" is a Gospel word that describes being put in "right relation" with God. And those in hell sufferning eternal conscious torment are most definitely not in "right relationship with God."


What is "good" about eternal conscious damnation? Well, I think that the fact that God's "goodness" in a person being eternally damned is vindicated in apposition to the sinners in hell's denial and rejection of the testimony of the God of truth which they were shown on some level during their lives. Is that sentence clear? God is vindicated by their eternal consciousness experiencing a state of seperatedness from any trace of God's goodness. All that they have is their own self. All that they have is the consciousness of their folly. All that they have is regret and despair. And they have torment as punishment for their crimes on whatever level that is just. Does that torment ever end? We can only guess. But if it does end, they are still condemned to suffer in dark solitude eternally. They still roam the terrible expanse of isolation from God and His goodness.

Well, the problem I have with that is that "all that I am" was given from God my Creator, and it is impossible for me to suffer pain outside of a properly functioning body, and it is impossible for me to feel grief and remorse without a properly functioning mind, and all those things are things that are VERY GOOD except for being marred by the fall. So a HUGE amount of God's goodness must remain in me to keep me alive forever so I can suffer the infinite evil of infinite pain and endless agony.

But besides that, I still don't understand how suffering in hell can "vindicate" God's goodness. On the contrary, it seems to directly contradict any statement that "God is good" because part of being "good" means "not inflicting endless torment on people just to vindicate your own goodness." I'm not trying to be flippant - the point is that the philosophy of eternal conscious torment seems to destroy the normal meanings of words like "good" and "love" and "justice."


One of my teachers, Stephen J. Hill explained damnation this way: there is no sign of the goodness of the Father there. In life, all people are blessed with myriad tokens of the Father's goodness and love, all of the time. Any provision, any comfort, any freedom, any relief, any opportunity, any choice, any pleasure, any hope, any simple pleasures, any sanity, any sense of contentment, any rest is always a gift and token of the Father's goodness. If someone went somewhere where there was absolutely no sign of the reality of the Father who is good, that would be hell alone. Let alone any added justice of punishment to worsen the situation. Let alone the consciousness of one's lost opportunity to know and enjoy God forever.
But as mentioned above, to live well enough to be able to suffer implies that God is pouring out a huge amount of "goodness" on His victims in hell. He must uphold them in existence, and He must give them a mind sufficiently lucid to suffer the agonies He wants to inflict on them, and that involves the whole panoply of the goodness found in the original creation, only now marred with sufficient evil to make it constantly painful for the victim.

In other words - it seems that hell must be a very carefully and intelligently designed torture chamber that inflicts eternal pain without destroying the victim physically or mentally.

What possible motivation could there be for creating such a place?

Richard

[eliyahu]

"The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, [1] forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Ex 34:6-7.

One of my teachers (who you may have heard of) was Bob Gladstone. He would have us students quote off these verses almost every class session for OT Survey. He would say how people often say "God is good all the time, and all the time God is good." He would go on to say how that is not always true. God is not good when one is experiencing His outpoured wrath. He was not "good" for Sodom when they were being burned. That goes for anyone when they are suffering at His hand as punishement and/or justice is being dispensed. I believe that this is true and that it applies to damnation well.

These verses in Exodus show how God is very good, but... "with the purified you show yourself pure;
and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous." Psalm 18:26. God treats others how they treat or have treated Him, unless there is repentance involved. This may or may not happen in people's lifetimes. This spills over into eternity. Being cognizant enough to fully experience "torture" does not seem very "good" at all. That is why often times governments and people who have power did not execute their prisoners whome they had reason to punish (or whome they simply hated for whatever reason). Prisoners were tortured, given a life sentence of suffering in some form of imprisonment, or even tortured to death. Sometimes they were tortured with "care" to keep them alive so that they could continue to suffer as long as they could make them do so. Having the ability be alive and experience suffering is regularly denied by many people through suicide. Since suicide is not even an option in the "lake of fire," than the full implications are inescapable.

As for God's goodness being vindicated by people being eternally damned... That is a good question, no pun intended :lol:. Maybe we could consider that God is faithful to His word. Since He stated that He "will by no means clear the guilty" we can begin to consider eternal damnation in light of this. And, if someone does not deserve constant torture forever, maybe we can make a guess that their experience in the lake of fire is not going to remain the same forever. Maybe there will be a point of the penalty for sin will be paid, or at least on some level. But maybe not. Maybe the just penalty is paid and then the rest of eternity remains with simple and absolute solitary confinement of a sort. This will be likened to the "outer darkness" with people "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in despair and regret. Doesn't the parable of the rich man and Lazarus apply here as well?

God is omnipresent and therefor in hell also. Existance depends upon God upholding all things through His word.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there brother Eliyahu,

I really am enjoying working on this with you.

Thanks! :yo:


"The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, 'The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, [1] forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.' Ex 34:6-7.

Well, I think we need to be study carefully before we settle on an interpetation of those bold words, for indeed, who amongst us Christians have not had their guilt cleared by God through Christ?


Futhermore, we need to look at what the verse really says. The underlying Hebrew does not contain any word corresponding to "guilty." That's why Young's Literal Translation renders it this way:
YLT Exodus 34:7 keeping kindness for thousands, taking away iniquity, and transgression, and sin, and not entirely acquitting, charging iniquity of fathers on children, and on children's children, on a third generation, and on a fourth.'
What does "not entirely acquitting" really mean in this context? Many translations translate the blue words as "Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished" - the idea is that the kindness and goodness of God does not mean that wicked people go unpunished. But I certainly do not beleive that can be extended to the idea of infinite punishment.


A good example of the same Hebrew phrase is found in Jer 30:11
KJV Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
The real issue is not if God punishes the unrepentent sinner. The question is if that punishment continues forever regardless of the sinners' pleas for mercy. The popular tradition that man has no chance after the moment of death has no support in Scripture as far as I can tell. The weakness of their position is extremely obvious because they always use Hebrews 9:27 as their only Scriptural support, and it doesn't offer any at all. It says nothing about the question of post-mortem salvation.


As for God's goodness being vindicated by people being eternally damned... That is a good question, no pun intended :lol:. Maybe we could consider that God is faithful to His word. Since He stated that He "will by no means clear the guilty" we can begin to consider eternal damnation.

No ... I don't think that is a proper starting place at all. We know that God clears the guilty through faith in Christ. And there is nothing in the Bible that clearly states that a person can not repent after death. The only reason people seem to object to that idea is because they don't like the fact that they have given up their lives for Christ, so they don't want other people "getting in for free." The good news is just a little "too good." Why should those rotten sinners get in after a life of parties and women when we pious and holy Christians have "have borne the burden and heat of the day" (Matthew 20:12). Its really the same Gospel that scandalized the Pharisees.


And, if someone does not deserve torture forever, maybe we can make a guess that their experience in the lake of fire is not going to remain the same forever.
[quote]
Yes, that is one possibility. That's why I tend towards annihilationism. But I am not certain yet.
[quote=eliyahu;6346]
Maybe there will be a point of the penalty for sin will be paid. But maybe not. Maybe the just penalty is paid and then the rest of eternity remains with simple and absolute solitary confinement of a sort. This will be likened to the "outer darkness" with people "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in despair and regret. Doesn't the parable of the rich man and Lazarus apply here as well?

Those are some very interesting suggestions.

As for the parable of the rich man in Luke 16 ... I don't know if that is supposed to be a picture of his eternal state, or if it is a picture of the magnitude of his suffering caused by his sin. I certainly do no believe that anyone in a burning lake of fire could hold a nice civil intellectual conversation like that. And the fact that he was concerned about his brothers shows that there was some genuine goodness in him.


God is omnipresent and therefor in hell also. Existance depends upon God upholding all things through His word.
Actually, its God's wrathful presence in hell that has traditionally been understood as the source of the "fire."

Richard

[eliyahu]

The real issue is not if God punishes the unrepentent sinner. The question is if that punishment continues forever regardless of the sinners' pleas for mercy. The popular tradition that man has no chance after the moment of death has no support in Scripture as far as I can tell. The weakness of their position is extremely obvious because they always use Hebrews 9:27 as their only Scriptural support, and it doesn't offer any at all. It says nothing about the question of post-mortem salvation. Hi Richard, I am liking this also. There are not many believers that will talk about theology this much who even know enough to keep up.

Heb 9:27 seems like a pretty strong support for one's fate being sealed upon death to me and many reputable scholars. The context seems to support this assertion also. This would be a good place to show where scripture indicates that there is hope for those who die without mercy.



We know that God clears the guilty through faith in Christ. And there is nothing in the Bible that clearly states that a person can not repent after death. The only reason people seem to object to that idea is because they don't like the fact that they have given up their lives for Christ, so they don't want other people "getting in for free." The good news is just a little "too good." Why should those rotten sinners get in after a life of parties and women when we pious and holy Christians have "have borne the burden and heat of the day" (Matthew 20:12). Its really the same Gospel that scandalized the Pharisees.
I do not think that way though. That is true that some are like you said. But in truth that kind of vindictiveness is immature and shallow. Where is the transformed heart in that? We agree there. I take Ex 34's "guilty" in context to refer to those who do not have faith/repentance. The Torah is full of the concepts of atonement, mercy, forgiveness, repentance, and God's desire for mercy and not judgment. God's statement about "not leaving the guilty completely unpunished" is in view of the whole context of His mercy to repentant sinners. Death is empowered by sin. The law reveals that sin. Once death takes a person who is still in their sins, that person is "guilty" and not having found mercy in God. How in the world can a dead sinner repent? If that were possible, if that were acceptable to God, hell would be a five minute long experience for even the hardest of hearts before they repented and exited the place. The lake of fire would never be populated by a human soul.

Jesus said, "What will it profit a man is he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?"


As for the parable of the rich man in Luke 16 ... I don't know if that is supposed to be a picture of his eternal state, or if it is a picture of the magnitude of his suffering caused by his sin.

Actually, its God's wrathful presence in hell that has traditionally been understood as the source of the "fire."
I understand the fire to be something like that also. It is like the fire of a husband's jealousy in Proverbs.

The parable of the rich man is not really a doctrinal theses of Jesus. But if the story were impossible, the parable would be too far from the truth for Jesus to use it. I don't believe He would make up a fantastic pagan-styled myth to teach a lesson. Especially one so packed with eternal implications. The rich man desparately desired any relief. He did not argue that there was injustice in his state. Lazarus told him that beasically it was hopeless for him in hell. Lazarus did not comfort him with hope of future anihilation or future salvation, etc. Shouldn't he if Jesus came to tell the truth?

[yeshua_seven]

I just want to jump in for a second because it seems that some believe that hell and the lake of fire are one and the same. I believe the Bible makes the two clearly distinct. The book of revelation says that "hades" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Hades is the place of the dead which consists of hell and paradise. Hell and Paradise will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Nobody spends eternity in Hades. The parable in Luke 16 was not about the Lake of Fire but was about Paradise and Hell.

I believe in the distinction between Hell and the Lake of Fire.

[eliyahu]

Sorry if I uses Hell and the lake of fire interchangably. I understand the difference between the two. Thanks. But Paradise is not going to be put into the lake of fire. paradise is where the godly people went. None of them will be in the lake of fire. Death and Hell are put into the lake of fire. Death is just not the same as paradise. Jesus even called those who were then there "living."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Sorry if I uses Hell and the lake of fire interchangably. I understand the difference between the two. Thanks. But Paradise is not going to be put into the lake of fire. paradise is where the godly people went. None of them will be in the lake of fire. Death and Hell are put into the lake of fire. Death is just not the same as paradise. Jesus even called those who were then there "living."

I have never accepted the "two compartment" theory of Hades. It is not clearly taught in Scripture and seems to be of pagan origin. Here is what the Moody Bible Dictionary says of it:
In the intertestamental period there developed a two-compartment theory (probably an influence from Persian Zoroastrianism, which taught that sheol and hades had two compartments, a place of bliss for the righteous and a place of torment for the wicked. The righteous were waiting for the resurrection of Christ who then delivered them from hades into God’s presence. This argument was based on Ephesians 4:9–10 and 1 Peter 3:19. However, it is doubtful that this is what these passages teach. Moreover, Moses’ and Elijah’s appearance at Christ’s transfiguration suggests they were already in God’s presence (Matt. 17:3), not in some intermediate holding place.
Thanks to Eliyahu's insight, we now have another strong argument against the two-compartment theory. In Revelation 2:7 Christ promised that "to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Later in the same book, Death and Hades are thrown in the lake of fire. I conclude therefore that the two compartment theory of hades is false and unbiblical.

Richard

[joel]

As for God's goodness being vindicated by people being eternally damned...

Eliyahu, first off, let me say that I support much of what you say, even though I haven't verbalized it until now.........you are like a voice of one crying in the wilderness.....

And, I think that our viewpoints have many points of agreement without clarifying each, one upon another.

This thing about eternal damnation is another mistaken application arising out of our English words being used to convey Greek words and grammar phrases which we are not accustomed to.......and these issues have been debated here on other threads as well with no apparent clarity arising for all of us to embrace in unity.

The judging that is future is of the eon. It is "age enduring". The concept of eternal damnation is counter to His love.

We have been deluded into looking at "eternal life" vs. "eternal death"....and "eternal damnation" as if these matters were set in concrete. They are not.

If every time we identified the word "eternal" in the common versions, and applied the "age enduring" flavor of the word, we would get a completely different viewpoint than that which is so much a part of orthodoxy.

It is the goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance (a change of mind), it is not the message of eternal damnation that leads to such a change.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It is the goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance (a change of mind), it is not the message of eternal damnation that leads to such a change.

Joel
Amen! :thumb:

[eliyahu]

Hi Joel.

You have presented some very good points to consider, especially about the age/aeon. True about the "kindness of God" bringing repentance. I suppose that God's kindness is quite accented when viewed before a backdrop of damnation. This is an application of that truth also. God's kindness alone does not interest a satisfied and happy sinner. People say "you gotta get em in hell before bringing them to heaven."

[yeshua_seven]

Then how would you guys understand Jesus descending to Hades? Jesus told the thief next to Him on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day. The popular creed says that Jesus descended into hell. How can Jesus be in hell and be with the thief in paradise? I believe Jesus went to both paradise and hell. He had to be in hell to preach to the spirits in prison, but He also had to be in paradise in order to fulfill His word to the thief.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Then how would you guys understand Jesus descending to Hades? Jesus told the thief next to Him on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day. The popular creed says that Jesus descended into hell. How can Jesus be in hell and be with the thief in paradise? I believe Jesus went to both paradise and hell. He had to be in hell to preach to the spirits in prison, but He also had to be in paradise in order to fulfill His word to the thief.
I don't think God meant for us to try to form a detailed technical theoretical structure of the architecture of hades. If that's what He intended, He would have given us a lot more details. As it is, we have just a few verses to guess from and they are somewhat ambiguous. The thing that is important is that Christ saved use from death and hades, and that ultimately death and hades themselves will be destroyed "in the lake of fire." That's pretty good news in my book!

Richard