Did we exist before we were conceived?

[Rose]

As I was driving to work this morning, listening to Hank Hanegraaff's " The Bible answer man ", a woman called in with a question her young son had asked her: "where was I, before I was born?".

The answer Hank gave to this woman was that, we come into existence at the moment of conception.well my mind immediately went to the verse in

Jeremiah 1:5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;" and

Psalms 139:16 "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them."

To my understanding those verses seem to be saying that God knew who we were before conception, that we existed before we were conceived.

I would like to know what others think about this. :)
Rose

[sylvius]

As I was driving to work this morning, listening to Hank Hanegraaff's " The Bible answer man ", a woman called in with a question her young son had asked her: "where was I, before I was born?".

The answer Hank gave to this woman was that, we come into existence at the moment of conception.well my mind immediately went to the verse in

Jeremiah 1:5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;" and

Psalms 139:16 "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them."

To my understanding those verses seem to be saying that God knew who we were before conception, that we existed before we were conceived.

I would like to know what others think about this. :)
Rose

Jeremiah 1:5


בְּטֶרֶם אצורך (אֶצָּרְךָ) בַבֶּטֶן יְדַעְתִּיךָ, וּבְטֶרֶם תֵּצֵא מֵרֶחֶם הִקְדַּשְׁתִּיךָ: נָבִיא לַגּוֹיִם, נְתַתִּיךָ.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations

before, Hebrew "b'terem"

look what Rashi says about "terem" (on Genesis 2:5), http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=6288


Every טֶרֶם in Scripture has the meaning of 'not yet,' and it does not mean'before,' and it cannot be made into a verb form, to say הִטְרִים, as one says הִקְדִּים This verse proves this, as well as another verse (Exod. 9:30):' כִּי טֶרֶם תִּירְאוּן, You will not yet fear.' This verse too should be explained to mean that [no tree] was yet on the earth (Targum Onkelos).

it means there is a sphere beyond time; timeless = eternal.

a sphere where there is no before and after.

there we all belong, I think, it is our eternal home.

[Abigail]

As I was driving to work this morning, listening to Hank Hanegraaff's " The Bible answer man ", a woman called in with a question her young son had asked her: "where was I, before I was born?".

The answer Hank gave to this woman was that, we come into existence at the moment of conception.well my mind immediately went to the verse in

Jeremiah 1:5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;" and

Psalms 139:16 "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them."

To my understanding those verses seem to be saying that God knew who we were before conception, that we existed before we were conceived.

I would like to know what others think about this. :)
Rose

But was our existance only appreciable to God in that we were something in the mind of God but not appreciable to us in that He had not yet spoken us to start. When I was younger I knew I wanted kids and would think about what they would be like and what they would do. However I had no idea if my thoughts would become reality and indeed when I did have my kids these little guys were totally new and unknown people to me. This is not so for God as he can know before time and even in the Bible when he speaks things through the prophets which were to happen sometimes He speaks as if these things are already so because He knows what will be.

So what I am saying and maybe this sounds a bit like the tree in the forest still making a sound even if there is no one there to hear it fall, but in this instant I would say that because we are so intimately connected with our own existance to all intents and purposes we only have self appreciable existance once we were more than a thought of God ...ie once He had spoken us and we had the ability to be separate from His mind

[Richard Amiel McGough]

As I was driving to work this morning, listening to Hank Hanegraaff's " The Bible answer man ", a woman called in with a question her young son had asked her: "where was I, before I was born?".

The answer Hank gave to this woman was that, we come into existence at the moment of conception.well my mind immediately went to the verse in

Jeremiah 1:5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;" and

Psalms 139:16 "Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them."

To my understanding those verses seem to be saying that God knew who we were before conception, that we existed before we were conceived.

I would like to know what others think about this. :)
Rose
Fascinating question, and an ancient one. Origen, the prolific 3rd century Christian scholar, got himself in trouble partly because of his speculation that our pre-existent souls "fell" into this world because we grew weary of the intensity of being too close to God. You can read this in the introduction to Origin (http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/origen.htm#SH3b) on the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

As for Jer 1:5. The word translated as "before" is 'b'terem" as noted by sylvius. The exact form of this word offurres in 33 verses, and in every case, it means "before". Some examples:

Genesis 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before (b'terem) I die.

Genesis 27:33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before (b'terem) thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.

Psalm 90:2 before (b'terem) the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

So as far as I can tell, there are no issues with the word "before." But there is an issue with the word "know". God "knows" what the lotto numbers will be in the year 2030 (assuming there will still be lotto then), but that doesn't mean that the lotto numbers are pre-existent. It seems kinda like what Abigail was getting at. God knew us in the sense of His omniscience, but we didn't know Him, or anything, because we didn't exist as created beings yet.

For me, I would have to see a verse that teaches we acted as individuals before being conceived before I could assert that we had pre-existence. As far as I can tell, the Bible does not make any explicit statement on this point, so it seems to be a biblical "gray area." The only hint I know of that points in the direction of pre-existence is the rather mysterious verse of John 9:1-2

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Now what sort of world-view did the disciples have that allowed them to ask if a man was "born blind" because of his own sin? Did they believe we could "sin in the womb" or that we sinned in a pre-existent state? Why didn't Jesus correct their implicit world-view if it was wrong? Why did God include this story in the Bible if the implicit world view is wrong?

RAM

[sylvius]

The word translated as "before" is 'b'terem" as noted by sylvius. The exact form of this word offurres in 33 verses, and in every case, it means "before".

Not so according to Rashi:

Every טֶרֶם in Scripture has the meaning of “not yet,” and it does not mean“before,” and it cannot be made into a verb form, to say הִטְרִים, as one says הִקְדִּים

nice example of "terem" in Exodus 12: 34

וַיִּשָּׂא הָעָם אֶת-בְּצֵקוֹ טֶרֶם יֶחְמָץ

"vayissa haam et-b'tseiko terem yechmatz"
"and the people took up their dough when it was not yet leavened"

there was no time.

which seems to be the clue of Passover.

Passover is the feast of the unleavened bread.

[Rose]

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Now what sort of world-view did the disciples have that allowed them to ask if a man was "born blind" because of his own sin? Did they believe we could "sin in the womb" or that we sinned in a pre-existent state? Why didn't Jesus correct their implicit world-view if it was wrong? Why did God include this story in the Bible if the implicit world view is wrong?

RAM


Thats a very interesting question you brought up Richard, concerning John 9:1

"Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

I can understand them asking Jesus if the man was born blind because of his parents sins, since we know that the sins of the fathers are past down to the children. And we also know that every one born into this world, is born in sin, but thats not what the disciples are asking,they are asking Jesus if the man was born blind because " he " sinned, at or before birth. :confused:

Now theres something I'll have to give some thought to
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Not so according to Rashi:

Every טֶרֶם in Scripture has the meaning of 'not yet,' and it does not mean'before,' and it cannot be made into a verb form, to say הִטְרִים, as one says הִקְדִּים
Rashi was writing in Hebrew, not English, so if you want to make a fine point about the difference between the English word "before" and the English phrase "not yet" in the translation of Rashi's Hebrew commentary on the Torah, you will have to present the Hebrew words Rashi was comparing so we can do a word study on them.




nice example of "terem" in Exodus 12: 34
וַיִּשָּׂא הָעָם אֶת-בְּצֵקוֹ טֶרֶם יֶחְמָץ
"vayissa haam et-b'tseiko terem yechmatz"
"and the people took up their dough when it was not yet leavened"

there was no time.
Huh? :confused:

It seems to me that the time when it was "not yet leavened" is just another way to identify the time before it was leavened.

[Abigail]

The only hint I know of that points in the direction of pre-existence is the rather mysterious verse of John 9:1-2

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Now what sort of world-view did the disciples have that allowed them to ask if a man was "born blind" because of his own sin? Did they believe we could "sin in the womb" or that we sinned in a pre-existent state? Why didn't Jesus correct their implicit world-view if it was wrong? Why did God include this story in the Bible if the implicit world view is wrong?

RAM
I just looked that scripture up and it is kindof interesting, however I dont see it as necessary that the disciples had their own view of pre-existence in mind since maybe they were asking a kind of non-question which they thought they already knew the answer to. Perhaps the parents of the blind man, like Job, had insisted they were innocent and couldnt understand why their baby was born so, but all the time the rest of the people were thinking in the backs of their minds that the parents had to have done something. The answer Jesus gives is that his condition is for the works of God to be displayed ...Job too was also innocent even though the other suspected him of sin.

Alternately in John 8:58 Jesus had made the statement that He was even before Abraham and upon saying this the Jews tried to stone Him so it looks like that was a pretty divine statement to make. Perhaps the disciples asked Jesus the question they did because they too were blown away by the John 8:58 statement and were wanting Jesus to say 'no one exists before they are born so how could the man be guilty sin' . To me I suspect this is possibly what was going on because in verse 4 Jesus then makes reference to them needing to work the works of God which if you look in John 6:29 it says that the work of God is that they believe in Jesus. So to me Jesus is basically saying to them 'why are you not believing in Me'

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Alternately in John 8:58 Jesus had made the statement that He was even before Abraham and upon saying this the Jews tried to stone Him so it looks like that was a pretty divine statement to make. Perhaps the disciples asked Jesus the question they did because they too were blown away by the John 8:58 statement and were wanting Jesus to say 'no one exists before they are born so how could the man be guilty sin' . To me I suspect this is possibly what was going on because in verse 4 Jesus then makes reference to them needing to work the works of God which if you look in John 6:29 it says that the work of God is that they believe in Jesus. So to me Jesus is basically saying to them 'why are you not believing in Me'

Very interesting (and novel) approach. I've never thought of it that way b'terem. It makes a lot of sense that the disciples would be trying to get Him to answer questions like that. I can imagine the discussions they had when Jesus was off praying by Himself ...

Phillip: So, what did He mean when He said "Before Abraham was, I am"?

Andrew: Maybe He was talking about our pre-existence?

John: I got an idea. Next time we see someone born with a deformity, lets ask the Lord if it was because of his sin, or the sin of his parents! That will answer it.

Abigail, your suggestion would gain credence if we could find other examples of the disciples asking "leading questions." I have a nagging suspicion that I should know them off the top of my head, but they are not popping up right now.

[sylvius]

Rashi was writing in Hebrew, not English, so if you want to make a fine point about the difference between the English word "before" and the English phrase "not yet" in the translation of Rashi's Hebrew commentary on the Torah, you will have to present the Hebrew words Rashi was comparing so we can do a word study on them.

"terem" has nothing to do with "earlier or later".

True we cannot express it right in English (or Dutch).

earlier = "mukdam" (root "kadam" = to precede, come before, anticipate.)

later= "m'uchar"

Rashi's reading-rule: "there is no earlier or later in the Torah"





It seems to me that the time when it was "not yet leavened" is just another way to identify the time before it was leavened.

it is about the difference between "matzah" and "chomeitz" (see f.e. Rabbi Munk in "the Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet")

difference expressed in the little opening that distinguishes the written letter "hei' from the wrtitten leter "chet".

("Matzah" written "mem-tsade-hei", "chomeitz" written "chet-mem-tsade")

it has nothing to do with time.

it is about two different ways of being.

Mark 8:15

"Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

"terem" has nothing to do with "earlier or later".

True we cannot express it right in English (or Dutch).

earlier = "mukdam" (root "kadam" = to precede, come before, anticipate.)

later= "m'uchar"

M'uchar doesn't occur in the Bible. Klein notes it is a Post-biblical word meaning "late, or tardy." It is from the root achar = after, behind. I see no justification whatsoever to replace the biblical term terem with another not even found in Scripture. It seems like Rashi had to do this to force-fit his preconceived philosophy onto the Bible.


Rashi's reading-rule: "there is no earlier or later in the Torah"
So Rashi imposes his own philosophical idea on the text of the Torah, and then changes the meaning of the words to fit his ideas? Is that what you are trying to say?

I understand why Rashi might like the idea of "no before or after" in the Torah, since that would fit well with the idea that the Torah is eternal. But I think his idea is entirely wrong-headed, factually false, and does serious violence to the meaning of the text.

As for the word terem: You quoted Rashi as saying " it cannot be made into a verb form, to say הִטְרִים,". This assertion is directly contradicted by Earnest Klein, author of the Exhaustive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language, who lists that exact form (the hiphil) in his dictionary.

Furthermore, Klein defines the verb terem as "to do before" and the adverb as "not yet, before, ere". So Rashi is correct that terem can mean "not yet" but he most certainly erred when he said "Every terem in Scripture has the meaning of 'not yet'".

That's three big strikes against Rashi.
His "reading-rule" imposes the false notion of "no before or after"
He erred about the definition of terem as always meaning "not yet"
He erred about the verb terem not having a hiphil form.Is there any reason we should trust Rashi as a commentator on the Bible?

[Abigail]

Phillip: So, what did He mean when He said "Before Abraham was, I am"?

Andrew: Maybe He was talking about our pre-existence?

John: I got an idea. Next time we see someone born with a deformity, lets ask the Lord if it was because of his sin, or the sin of his parents! That will answer it.

No, I think perhaps the disciples were doubting Him when He said He was before Abraham even, and if they could get Him to confirm that no humans could be pre-existant then they would know either they misunderstood or Jesus was not consistent. I think Jesus' answer demonstrated that He knew their question was a fishing one and that is why He made the reference to John 6:25 onwards ie I am come down from Heaven, I am special believe in me. Men dont normally pre-exist but Jesus did because He was from God. They needed to realise He was not just a man.

[joel]

(Richard)

"For me, I would have to see a verse that teaches we acted as individuals before being conceived before I could assert that we had pre-existence. As far as I can tell, the Bible does not make any explicit statement on this point, so it seems to be a biblical "gray area." The only hint I know of that points in the direction of pre-existence is the rather mysterious verse of John 9:1-2

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Now what sort of world-view did the disciples have that allowed them to ask if a man was "born blind" because of his own sin? Did they believe we could "sin in the womb" or that we sinned in a pre-existent state? Why didn't Jesus correct their implicit world-view if it was wrong? Why did God include this story in the Bible if the implicit world view is wrong? "
RAM
-----------------------------------------------------------------

In looking again at the John 9 verses above, can we consider the following?;

John 9:
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth

At this point, we do not know anything except what we have been told. The blind man, that Jesus saw as He was passing by, was born in that condition.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

In the manner this verse is stated, it appears that the disciples knew that the blind man was born blind. And if they did have that knowledge, which we are not told that they truly knew this about the man, then, their question may be construed as to whether the blind man sinned before he was born, or, the blindness was a result of the sin of his parents before he was born, or, as a third alternative, they may have been asking the question; "Who sinned here causing this blindness? ....the blind man....or his parents?"

The question that arises, in my view, is; Could the verse be structured to say?;

2 And asked Him, the learners of Him, saying, did this one sin, or, the parents of Him that blind he may be generated?

If structured in that manner, it eliminates the issue about sin occuring by the man before he was born which cannot be supported anywhere in scripture, to my knowledge.

And, the answer that Jesus offered is more clear;

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be manifest in him.

Joel

[sylvius]

So, what did He mean when He said "Before Abraham was, I am"?

Abraham was first called Abram.

He did get the letter "hei" added to his name denoting the covenant of circumcision.

Genesis 17:1,


And Abram was ninety-nine years old, and God appeared to Abram, and He said to him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me and be perfect.

"and be perfect" :

Rashi:

According to its midrashic interpretation, walk before Me refers to the commandment of circumcision, and thereby, you will be perfect, for as long as the foreskin is upon you, I consider you imperfect (Gen. Rabbah 46:1). Another explanation: 'and be perfect' -Now you are missing [control over] five organs: two eyes, two ears, and the male organ. I will add a letter to your name, and the numerical value of your letters [of your name] will be 248, corresponding to the number of your organs (Tan. Lech Lecha 16, Ned. 32b).

I think Jesus was referring to this.

same notion to be found in Matthew 3:9,

And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones

"we have Abraham as our father" = we are circumcised.







same letter "hei" was added to "shishi" in Genesis 1:31.

that's interesting!

Genesis 2:4,


אֵלֶּה תוֹלְדוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ, בְּהִבָּרְאָם: בְּיוֹם, עֲשׂוֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים--אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָיִם.

These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

בְּהִבָּרְאָם, "b'hibaram" = when they were created,
"hibaram", written with the same letters as "Abraham" --
that's why it is read: "for the sake of Abraham."

The letter "hei" is stressed by writing it smaller than the other letters.

so one can also read: "with the letter "hei" they were created. "

John knew all about this, I am sure.

[White]

Pre-existence :
How about Romans 8:29 : For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Besides the obvious - Jeremiah 1:5 and PSALM 139 - that's all I can contribute - Besides : God is the Alpha and the Omega - and John 1:1-3 : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And Proverbs 8:22 : The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. ... Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth...

In Christ, for of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Romans 11:36 - Amen. And we are In Christ, right? and He is from everlasting to everlasting... The Beginning and the End...
White

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Pre-existence :
How about Romans 8:29 : For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Besides the obvious - Jeremiah 1:5 and PSALM 139 - that's all I can contribute - Besides : God is the Alpha and the Omega - and John 1:1-3 : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And Proverbs 8:22 : The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. ... Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth...

In Christ, for of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Romans 11:36 - Amen. And we are In Christ, right? and He is from everlasting to everlasting... The Beginning and the End...
White
Thanks White! Those are all very good verses that certainly show we were in God's mind from all eternity (what a wonderful thought!) .... but, I think the question here is if we had a conscious existence before we were conceived in our mother's wombs. I can not think of any verse that would settle that question, and only one that would suggest it as a possibility - John 9:2 which I was discussing with Abigail.

So what do you think, White? Did we have a pre-existence with God before we were conceived? My answer is "probably not" but I leave it open since the Bible doesn't actually say (as far as I can tell, anyway).

Richard

[White]

I see - Good point - Can't name any other verses right now, but I will keep this question in mind because it is so important. Personally I always felt (and I know feelings don't cut it but give me some slack) that the entire WORD OF GOD was "written" in Heaven before HE brought it down to Earth and we are just living out what is already foreknowledge of the LORD. Whether the LORD just knows all of our thoughts, actions etc. every second of the day or whether we lived our life in Heaven before we came to Earth, I do not know, but we'll find out sooner or later, right? - PSALM 139:16 : "Your eyes foresaw my actions; in your book all are written down; my days were shaped, before one came to be." Eyes saw, all written down, days shaped before even a day was made... Fore-knowledge yes, pre-existence may-be? You be the judge.

Of course the sin problem would kind of ruin that thought because Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven because unrighteousness was found in him - Ezekiel 28:12-19 ... you were stamped with the seal of perfection, of complete wisdom and perfect beauty. In Eden, the garden of God, you were, and every precious stone was your covering... of gold your pendants and jewels were made, on the day you were created (God and I have something in common: we are both Jewelers!), ...blameless you were in your conduct from the day you were created, until evil (unrighteousness) was found in you...violence was your business and you sinned. Then I banned you from the mountain of God... I cast you to the earth (thanks God), so great was your guilt... you have become a horror, you shall be no more (and that's a promise from GOD ALMIGHTY - I like to be on the winning team, how about you?)

Now since we are all sinners, we could not really have lived in Heaven beforehand, but Lucifer did and he did evil and was kicked out, never to enter Heaven again. Ok, I give in for today but I don't give up yet. I'll pray about it tonight during my special Prayer-time with the LORD. Maybe you'll hear from me tomorrow..., yes definately, tomorrow...
Shalom
White

[Geoffrey]

But was our existance only appreciable to God in that we were something in the mind of God but not appreciable to us in that He had not yet spoken us to start. When I was younger I knew I wanted kids and would think about what they would be like and what they would do. However I had no idea if my thoughts would become reality and indeed when I did have my kids these little guys were totally new and unknown people to me. This is not so for God as he can know before time and even in the Bible when he speaks things through the prophets which were to happen sometimes He speaks as if these things are already so because He knows what will be.

So what I am saying and maybe this sounds a bit like the tree in the forest still making a sound even if there is no one there to hear it fall, but in this instant I would say that because we are so intimately connected with our own existance to all intents and purposes we only have self appreciable existance once we were more than a thought of God ...ie once He had spoken us and we had the ability to be separate from His mind
I agree with Abigail on this. Physically, children are in the loins of their fathers before they are born, but do not have bodies or consciuosness. Jesus, the first born and uniquely begotten, had a body and consciousness before he was born from Mary (Heb 10:5). When God breathed the breath of lives into Adam, He gave birth to our souls into the body of Adam and from generation to generation, our souls are born from our fathers through our mothers into bodies of flesh.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I agree with Abigail on this. Physically, children are in the loins of their fathers before they are born, but do not have bodies or consciuosness.
Only the seed (sperm) is in the loins of the father, and a sperm cell is not a person, since its DNA is not complete. The Biblical idea of "being in the loins" of ones father is just a figurative way to describe the idea of a patriarchal line, which involves inheritance, powers, blessings, etc. It obviously is not meant to be taken as a literal, physical truth, though in the past Christians were mistaken on this point because of a literal misreading of Hebrews 7:10. There even was a theory of a long chain of "little men" inside the little men inside the little men ... inside of Adam.


Jesus, the first born and uniquely begotten, had a body and consciousness before he was born from Mary (Heb 10:5).
Yes, of course He had a "consciousness", since He is, was, and always will be Eternal God. But how does Hebrews 10:5 say that He had a body before He was born from Mary?

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

It seems that verse says the body was prepared (in the womb of Mary) at the time when Christ "came into the world."


When God breathed the breath of lives into Adam, ...

Oops! :eek: You posted one of my pet peeves. The phrase "breath of lives" is an inaccurate translation of the Hebrew "chayam." It literally means "life" as you will find in any Hebrew dictionary, such as the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:

Chayam: Life, as an abstract idea, meaning the state of being alive as opposite to being dead. Life at its best, health, endless life.We see something similar in the word panim (face, Strongs 6440) which is always written as a plural even when it refers to a "face" in the singular, and again (most significantly) in the word Elohim which also is plural in form and can be used to refer to a plurality of gods, but is primarily used to refer to the One True God.


When God breathed the breath of lives into Adam, He gave birth to our souls into the body of Adam and from generation to generation, our souls are born from our fathers through our mothers into bodies of flesh.
If find those words very difficult to understand. The Bible presents a "soul" as a being formed from earth and animated by the "breath of life." Thus, "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

It seems to me that the Bible teaches we are souls, not that we have souls. And even if we did "have souls" where do we get the idea that mour souls were created at the same time as Adam? And for that matter, where do we get the idea that we already had a "soul" before we were formed of the earth?

Good chatting!

Richard

[Geoffrey]

Only the seed (sperm) is in the loins of the father, and a sperm cell is not a person, since its DNA is not complete. The Biblical idea of "being in the loins" of ones father is just a figurative way to describe the idea of a patriarchal line, which involves inheritance, powers, blessings, etc. It obviously is not meant to be taken as a literal, physical truth, though in the past Christians were mistaken on this point because of a literal misreading of Hebrews 7:10. There even was a theory of a long chain of "little men" inside the little men inside the little men ... inside of Adam...It seems to me that the Bible teaches we are souls, not that we have souls. And even if we did "have souls" where do we get the idea that mour souls were created at the same time as Adam? And for that matter, where do we get the idea that we already had a "soul" before we were formed of the earth?
Humans are tripartite beings: body, spirit and soul.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
These parts can be represented as three concentric circles with the body on the outside, the spirit in the middle and the soul in the centre. We are not our bodies, we are not our spirits, but we are our souls. The soul is also spirit and life and the body is the manifestation of that invisible life. The soul is like the seed and the body the fruit that contains the seed. The DNA is built according to the blueprint in the soul.


Genesis 1:11-12 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. (12) And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


Acts 2:30-31 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; (31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
His seed that remaineth in him is his soul. God created the earth and formed the body of our father Adam from whose body our bodies are formed; God created our spirits, but gave birth to our souls. Children are born, not created. The father gives birth to the soul into the mother's womb, the mother gives birth to the body and then God places the spirit into the body and the baby cries.

When Jesus died, His body went to the tomb, His spirit went to God and His soul went to hell.


Matthew 27:59-60 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, (60) And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher, and departed.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father,into thy hands I commend my spirit:and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Oops! :eek: You posted one of my pet peeves. The phrase "breath of lives" is an inaccurate translation of the Hebrew "chayam." It literally means "life" as you will find in any Hebrew dictionary, such as the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament:
We see something similar in the word panim (face, Strongs 6440) which is always written as a plural even when it refers to a "face" in the singular, and again (most significantly) in the word Elohim which also is plural in form and can be used to refer to a plurality of gods, but is primarily used to refer to the One True God.
When we hear only the word sheep, we might think of one sheep or many sheep. So, when we hear chayam, we might think life or lives.:)


If find those words very difficult to understand. The Bible presents a "soul" as a being formed from earth and animated by the "breath of life." Thus, "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The Bible reads: "God formed man of the dust of the ground", which refers to the body and not the soul. Adam became a living soul, because his soul was then manifested in the flesh and could see, talk, walk around, etc.

This is what I believe, but my understanding is not perfect yet.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Humans are tripartite beings: body, spirit and soul.
Hi Geoffrey!

You are not alone in your belief that man is a "tripartite" being. Many Christians have believed the Bible teaches that, and it appears (on the surface at least) to have a satisfying correlation with the Triune Nature of our Creator.

But if we dig into it, I know of only two verses that support the idea of a "tripartite" nature of humans. The passage in Hebrews that you quoted seems like a good one at first because it says that the "soul and spirit" can be divided one from the other. But if I think about it too much, I find myself wondering "What does THAT mean?!" What is a "soul" without a spirit? What does it mean for God to separate soul and spirit? That line of thought doesn't seem to go anywhere.

The second verse, which is the one I thought you would have quoted, is 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." But if I interpreted Genesis 2:7 correctly as saying that a "soul" = Body + Spirit, then Paul's statement must be interpreted as a kind of poetic redundancy in which the middle term is not a third entity, but a way of referring to the self as a "body+spirit" unity. Similar poetic features are seen in Job 7:11 where the "soul" and "spirit" are used in parallel:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth;

I will speak in the anguish of my spirit;
I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.And in Isaiah 26:9

With my soul have I desired thee in the night;
yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early:I don't think we can build a very strong case for a "tripartite" human nature from such poetic verses. And in any case, the Bible certainly does not seem conclusive on this point, as far as I can tell anyway.


These parts can be represented as three concentric circles with the body on the outside, the spirit in the middle and the soul in the centre. We are not our bodies, we are not our spirits, but we are our souls. The soul is also spirit and life and the body is the manifestation of that invisible life. The soul is like the seed and the body the fruit that contains the seed. The DNA is built according to the blueprint in the soul.
That's a pretty interesting view. I immediately recognize that your explanation coheres well with the meaning of the Hebrew nephesh (soul) which is often translated as "life." And as I think about it more I recall that the Bible talks about the soul as separate from the body, so I will have to rethink how all this fits together. The difficulty may be that the Bible does not use these terms in a "scientific" way - they may be more poetic descriptions. The reason I say that is because the words are used with different meanings in different contexts.




Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
His seed that remaineth in him is his soul.
Whose soul? God's soul? I don't get this point. Jesus said "The seed is the Word of God" (Luke 8:11) and this is confirmed in 1 Peter 1:23:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


God created the earth and formed the body of our father Adam from whose body our bodies are formed; God created our spirits, but gave birth to our souls. Children are born, not created.
I don't know what you mean when you say "GOd gave birth." Could you explain that?


When Jesus died, His body went to the tomb, His spirit went to God and His soul went to hell.
I am guessing you are getting this idea from Acts 2:27: "Thou wilt not leave my SOUL in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." I think that is a misinterpretation. Reading just 4 verse on we find more information:

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This is just another biblical parallelism where soul and flesh are used interchangeably.


This is what I believe, but my understanding is not perfect yet.

And neither is mine! It is good for us to remind ourselves or our weaknesses. I hope nothing I have said makes it sound like I think I "know it all." I most certainly DO NOT have all the answers on any topic! But I sure do like trying to put the answers into words, and to have my efforts tested and challenged. Thanks for your help, my friend!

Richard

[Geoffrey]

Whose soul? God's soul? I don't get this point. Jesus said "The seed is the Word of God" (Luke 8:11) and this is confirmed in 1 Peter 1:23:
The man's soul is the seed of God. God is the Word, the Word is a seed and every seed brings forth after its kind; therefore, the man's soul is Word. The following verses show that men who are souls are the seed of God.



Matthew 13:24-25 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: (25) But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.


Jesus later explains the parable.



Matthew 13:36-38 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


An analogy: First the seed was in the bag of the sower - the loins of the father, then the seed was in the ground - the womb of the mother, then God sent rain - spirit - to germitise the seed so that it sprouts into a tree - the body - that brings forth fruit - behaviour and character.



1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.


To me it does not appear that this verse calls the Word of God seed, but that the rebirth of the seed - emphasis on of - takes place by the Word of God - emphasis on by. We cannot become born again, unless we hear the Word of God.



Romans 10:13-17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The Word of God is sometimes refered to as water.



Isaiah 55:10-11 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


And also:



Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:


The Word is also spirit.

[Geoffrey]

I am guessing you are getting this idea from Acts 2:27: "Thou wilt not leave my SOUL in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." I think that is a misinterpretation. Reading just 4 verse on we find more information:

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This is just another biblical parallelism where soul and flesh are used interchangeably.

Do you mean that Jesus did not descend to hell? The following verses appear to say that He did.



1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The prison is hell and the spirits are souls.



Ephesians 4:8-9 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Do you mean that Jesus did not descend to hell? The following verses appear to say that He did.

[COLOR=black]1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The prison is hell and the spirits are souls.
No, I did not mean that Jesus did not descend into hell in the sense of 1 Peter 3:19. But I am pretty sure that Acts 2:27 was not referring to that event, since its focus was the resurrection, and the fact that God would not leave the body of His Son in the grave to rot.

I find it interesting that you said the "spirits" are "souls." I think that my be an indication that the Bible does not use these two words consistently as referring to two separate entities.

I'll get to you other post shortly.

Richard


Folks dispute the meaning of 1 Pet 3:19, but I think it does

[Geoffrey]

I don't know what you mean when you say "GOd gave birth." Could you explain that?


We are the children of God, which means God gave birth to us. The sperm comes out from the father. The baby comes out from the mother. We came out from God. That is birth.

We are the issue of our parents. Jesus said that He issued from God.



John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


The word for proceeded forth in Greek according to Strong's dictionary (1831) means issue.

[Geoffrey]

I find it interesting that you said the "spirits" are "souls." I think that my be an indication that the Bible does not use these two words consistently as referring to two separate entities.

Generically, the soul is spirit or in the realm of spirit.

I might compare the body to a lamp, the soul to oil and and the spirit to a spark that ignites the oil so that it burns and lives and gives light. Or the body to meal, the soul to oil (with the meal and the oil made into dough) and the spirit to fire that warms the dough and bakes it into bread that can sustain life.

In Genesis 1, God created man in His own image and likeness. Since God is spirit, He created a man like Himself, a spirit man, souls. Then He formed the body from the dust of the earth, placed the soul in the body and ignited it by breathing into him the breath or spark of life.The word breath is related to fire. The b is the masculine of p, which is related to f as in pyro - fire.

Here my wires get crossed up because God said created and not birthed.:confused2:

So you also agree that Jesus's soul and body were at one point in different locations? I think you should also agree that His spirit was in a third location, because He commended His spirit into the hands of God, who was not in hell.

Geoffrey

[Elisabeth]

Originally Posted by Geoffrey
When Jesus died, His body went to the tomb, His spirit went to God and His soul went to hell.


Comment:
It is interesting to note that widow's son Elijah brought back to life had a soul that departed at death and came into him again and that the girl Jesus brought back to life had a spirit that departed her body and which came into her again when Jesus raised her up.

I noticed that in the OT soul and spirit are used interchangeable. Both also have the same abilities to experience say for example anger or suffering. In the New Spirit is used more often instead of soul. Jesus commended His Spirit into the hands of God. Hence when His body died, His Spirit, or His essential being was kept safe by God until the resurrection. Could it be that man's spirit is part of his soul and this is the part that responds to God? That this has been imprisoned by Satan and is set free by the Gospel so that the Spirit of God can have communion with the Spirit of man and be united and then by the consent of the soul takes control of the life? Psalm 51: says:
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
With regards to Christ's soul having gone to hell, what about the following possibility: Hell could refer to the two stages of Satan kingdom, first his spiritual one where Satan reigns over sinners but cannot be seen, (see my comments on the page dealing with hell, where I shared that the OT seems to imply that we can right now be in hell) followed by his literal one, when he can be seen literally after Christ's second coming and is literally destroyed with all his followers. If that is so then Jesus when He was made sin for us, must have suffered being one with the spiritual kingdom of Satan though He never sinned. He was reckoned with the transgressors on our behalf. When Jesus took our punishment hanging on the cross but before He actually died, was separated from the Father. And separated from God we are part of the spiritual kingdom of Satan.
I am a brand plucked from the fire. What fire? Is it not the fire of hell? I was a member of Satan's kingdom. But I was rescued from this kingdom and have been translated into the heavenly kingdom. Jesus took my place in the kingdom of Satan, so that I could take His place in the kingdom of heaven. But Jesus did not stay in the kingdom of Satan. !!!! Thank God! He gained the victory over that kingdom. He was buried in the grave of the rich as befitted a king!
The verse in Peter about Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison can only be understood by the role of the Messiah. Jesus had come to set the prisoners free. Prisoners in bondage to sin. At the time of the flood God's Spirit also strove with man just as He does today. Salvation came to the antediluvians just as it came to the people in Jesus' days and in our days.
Since the fall the spirits of men have been imprisoned by Satan. They can only be set free by listening and accepting the Word of God by faith.

Did we exist before we were conceived? The Mormons think we did. They believe we used to be spirit children and were given a second chance here on earth. I see nothing in the the Bible that supports that view. I agree that we were already in the mind of God. But then God knows the end from the beginning. Anyone who creates something intricate has to think it out before he does it. A writer can think for years about a character in a plot. This character exists in the mind of the writer. But this character does not come to life until the writer either speaks him to others or writes it down.
Both Adam and Christ were sons of God. But Christ was unique. He had pre-existence. If we had pre-existence and we have come out from God then surely we would not have sinned or we could have saved ourselves and Christ would not have had to come out from God to do this for us.

Elisabeth

[joel]

We know that the "foundation of the world" was a significant event as it serves as a point in time when those events occurring before it are distinguished from other events.

In Ephesians 1:4, Paul says;
According as He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

(As an aside, there are differing opinions as to what is "the foundation of the world".......but setting that aside, it is apparent that it is a past event).

Paul goes on to say;
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the God pleasure of his will,

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When Jesus died, His body went to the tomb, His spirit went to God and His soul went to hell.


Comment:
It is interesting to note that widow's son Elijah brought back to life had a soul that departed at death and came into him again and that the girl Jesus brought back to life had a spirit that departed her body and which came into her again when Jesus raised her up.

I noticed that in the OT soul and spirit are used interchangeable. Both also have the same abilities to experience say for example anger or suffering. In the New Spirit is used more often instead of soul. Jesus commended His Spirit into the hands of God.

Hi Elisabeth,


The question about the "structure of man" - whether bipartite (body + soul) or tripartite (body + soul + spirit) is an ancient one. A big part of the problem is caused by the interchangability of the terms soul and spirit. I tend towards the idea that the proper definition of "SOUL" is the combination of BODY + SPIRIT as seen in Gen 2:7
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (BODY), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (SPIRIT); and man became a living soul (SOUL). But the problem is that the words soul and spirit are not used in consistent fashion and are often interchangable, so I think this will remain an unsolved problem.

As for the widows son - the literal Hebrew says that the child's "nephesh" came into him again. But "nephesh" often means nothing more than "life" so I don't think that is by itself very strong evidence for the idea that the soul can depart from and return to the body.


Did we exist before we were conceived? The Mormons think we did. They believe we used to be spirit children and were given a second chance here on earth. I see nothing in the the Bible that supports that view.



Here is only one hint of it that I know of:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. How could the man have sinned before he was born? But at best, this is an argument from silence. The implicit assumption of preexistence in the disciples question could have been wrong but Christ didn't want to waste time correcting that particular point because he had a bigger point to make.


I agree that we were already in the mind of God. But then God knows the end from the beginning. Anyone who creates something intricate has to think it out before he does it. A writer can think for years about a character in a plot. This character exists in the mind of the writer. But this character does not come to life until the writer either speaks him to others or writes it down.

Both Adam and Christ were sons of God. But Christ was unique. He had pre-existence. If we had pre-existence and we have come out from God then surely we would not have sinned or we could have saved ourselves and Christ would not have had to come out from God to do this for us.

Elisabeth
The uniqueness of Christ is more than mere pre-existence because He pre-existed as God the Son. I don't see why our pre-existence would mean that we "would not have sinned" or that "we could have saved ourselves." What is there about the idea of pre-existence that would imply those conclusions?

Richard

[joel]

The three parts of us; spirit, soul and body, are mentioned together in one verse of note;
I Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Body = soma,
soul = psuche,
spirit = pneuma.

We are familiar with our bodies; It being the most obvious of the three.
It is made of material that is connected with this system in which we physically live. It is made of soil.

The spirit is other worldly, connected with the spirit realm. Like the breath, it is not discerned by the senses. God is spirit.

It seems that when the body is joined to the spirit, the soul is the result. Does the soul exist only when these two are joined, or, is the soul expressive only when these two are joined? The latter seems more appropriate as the soul appears to remain in "sleep" until the body and spirit of an individual are joined.

If this is so, then, the soul represents the consciousness of a person. We certainly may exist, but, if we are not conscious of the existence, then, the soul is not aware..........and, will not be aware until the body and spirit are united again.

If this is true, then, the spirit has existed in God, awaiting a body in which to be joined. When that occurs, the soul becomes the third part, the expressive conscious part.

In such a system, the spirit is also in communion with God's spirit, and is "plugged in", so to speak.

But, the overall leadership, or oversight is what is important. Sin, which is "missing", if allowed to take over the body, as it did in the garden with Adam, can cause the body to be dominant, rather that the spirit.

Such is the case with man after the transgression of Adam.

The soul becomes more conscious of things of the body in such a case.

Jesus came to reverse this condition.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The three parts of us; spirit, soul and body, are mentioned together in one verse of note;
I Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Body = soma,
soul = psuche,
spirit = pneuma.

We are familiar with our bodies; It being the most obvious of the three.
It is made of material that is connected with this system in which we physically live. It is made of soil.

The spirit is other worldly, connected with the spirit realm. Like the breath, it is not discerned by the senses. God is spirit.

It seems that when the body is joined to the spirit, the soul is the result. Does the soul exist only when these two are joined, or, is the soul expressive only when these two are joined? The latter seems more appropriate as the soul appears to remain in "sleep" until the body and spirit of an individual are joined.

I agree with the blue statement, and the question that follows is very well stated. But I don't know about the "soul sleep" idea. That kinda goes beyond what I can know with certainty.


If this is so, then, the soul represents the consciousness of a person. We certainly may exist, but, if we are not conscious of the existence, then, the soul is not aware..........and, will not be aware until the body and spirit are united again.
Again, this enters into areas of uncertainty for me. For example, the Hebrew word "nephesh" is used for animals as well as humans. It seems much more fundamentally related to "life" than to "consciousness."


If this is true, then, the spirit has existed in God, awaiting a body in which to be joined. When that occurs, the soul becomes the third part, the expressive conscious part.

Humm ... that's a new idea to me. I know the Bible says that God gives us spirit, and that it "returns to God" when we die, but I tend to think that's more poetical than anything else. I've never thought of spirits pre-existing and "waiting" to be incarnated. It also sounds like there are many "spirits" in God - and I'm not sure what that would entail.


In such a system, the spirit is also in communion with God's spirit, and is "plugged in", so to speak.

That's pretty much how I see us in our redeemed state. :thumb:


But, the overall leadership, or oversight is what is important. Sin, which is "missing", if allowed to take over the body, as it did in the garden with Adam, can cause the body to be dominant, rather that the spirit.

Such is the case with man after the transgression of Adam.

The soul becomes more conscious of things of the body in such a case.

Jesus came to reverse this condition.

Joel
Those are some pretty interesting ideas. But I have a slightly different take on the idea of what happened in the garden. I don't think "sin" took over Adam and Eve. The problem was that Adam and Eve responded to the flesh so they "took over" where God should have ruled. The other way of saying it makes sin sound like a thing or an entity that has sunstance. And that idea doesn't seem correct to me.

That was a lot of good food for thought, thanks Joel. :pop2:

Richard

[Elisabeth]

Joel's description of soul, body and spirit seems to be correct, at least according to what my friends and I have researched. In Eden man was given the choice to listen or have faith in the Words of God or to listen or have faith in the words of the enemy. From that point of view nothing has changed. We still get that choice. If we accept the words of the enemy this enemy begins to rule in one's life. I personally experienced this rule. There was never silence in my soul. There was always some internal pressure to do this or do that. Get up early to read your Bible was one such pressure. Not get up at six, but at five. In the end I got sleep deprivation and ended up sleeping on the sofa to catch up on sleep in the middle of the day. There was the pressure to give up this or that thing or food that defiled the body. When I was presented with the truth of the gospel I had to ask God to set me free from this evil spirit. I then passed over from death into life.
So Adam and Eve by listening to the enemy passed over from life to death and under the control of Satan. But that does not exclude what Richard says, that man himself took control. But behind man there always seems to be someone who takes control of man because we become the slaves of evil according to Romans 6:16. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
If we are to be the temple of the holy spirit then it makes sense that when the Holy Spirit does not rule within someone else does instead. The man of sin would then sit in the temple of God as though he is God.

[Rose]

Hi Elisabeth :yo:

Good Post!


If we are to be the temple of the holy spirit then it makes sense that when the Holy Spirit does not rule within someone else does instead. The man of sin would then sit in the temple of God as though he is God.

That gives a much fuller meaning to that passage. Makes sense ...:thumb:

Rose

[Gabs]

Hello!

Going back to John 9:1-3, I´m wondering that if its written that Jacob and Esau fought while in their mother´s womb then maybe it was thought that a baby could sin while in the womb so that is why they ask Jesus if the man had sinned.

I truly believe that we had prexistance in God´s mind, as a plan that would be accomplished by all means but not as something already created (which was done at conception)

God creates all by His word, maybe we were in His thought until we were spoken, and has been thinking about us before the foundation of the world.

It annoys me that this passage (John 9: 1-3) has been used as a ridiculous excuse to "prove" that there´s reincarnation in the Bible.


What Abigail says makes a lot of sense to me!

Blessings!

[Unregistered]

I found this discussion because I googled for "do we exist in God's mind before we are conceived".

Briefly, my husband and I struggled to have children for many years. One day I had the most amazing vision. I saw, as clearly as one can, without actually seeing it visually, a baby, interacting intelligently with God. I kind of saw God in the form of the Father cooing a baby who was completely focussed on God, feeling loved and belonging. It was too beautiful for words and left me in tears of joy. It was like being granted a peek into something that was happening outside of our physical realm, a peek into the mind and heart of God.

For years afterwards, through all the grief that accompanies infertility, through two adoptions, I had an almost rock-sure confidence that this baby was already "existing", known and loved and cherished by God, with a name, a personality, a spirit, and a knowledge of God. And it was just a matter of time until God would "send" it to earth. It was weird. It was a kind of faith that was so sure that even if it had not come to pass, it would still have counted in my mind as fact.

I did fall pregnant eventually, miraculously, and I now feel that this baby is the very baby I saw in a vision.

I know one can always explain things away, but to me this is a profound indication that "God’s foreknowledge makes it possible for Him to know us before we are born." (http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/creation/spirits.html)

And in this case I feel I was granted a piece of God's mind, in order to sustain me, give me joy, hope, even while it may have seemed to outsiders that I had "given up", because we opted to adopt. But even while I was willing to do without a child of my own body, deep down I always "knew" I was still "meant" to give birth.

It is so hard to talk about these things without resorting to all those terms I put in quotation marks.

Anyway, I wonder if this adds to the discussion.

[Unregistered]

I can only speak from my experience. What is important to myself was this, "I had not read the bible yet. I knew nothing contained in the bible regarding this topic". To experiencing being "Known" by the Father is indescribable. To hear Him (Yes, God is still speaking)..incredible. It is hearing Time and Existence Itself. Eternity ago is a long time. "Now you will Know" translated to, 'you've been Known". After the big endless penetrating waves of forgiveness where He says, "Let..." He created using the word Let. Let there be Light. Let us make man in Our Image. He says, "Let me take that from you". Let yourself be re-created. All this in submissive prayer, on the floor, returned to the dirt one came from. And they arising it higt me,'I've already existed, I just forgot!!". When re receive His Holy Spirit which is of Eternal Ago, the Realization is that in the Spiritual Sense, since it is the same Spirit or OF the Same Spirit which makes us a part of His Family rather apart from Him, as in Separated Innately (sin) from the Source of All Existence..you do indeed become One in Him as Jesus describes in the Book of John so thoroughly. Afterward, it is realized, we have nothing to do with it other than 'letting go of insecurity and doubt' and "Him Taking Our Sins Away"..which previously and paradoxically had acted as an "Insecurity Blanket" that defined our past and who we 'think' we are. Ultimately then as One with Him in Eternity, we are Spirit once His Spirit is received. This could be "Ecstasy", yet I cried and witnessed my own death and burial and rose again. Not until months later did I find what was written by Paul. It is the feeling of Arriving Home. Finally Home. Before that, we are flesh, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Then we can find YADA in the Hebrew Lexicon.

ability 1, acknowledge 4, acknowledged 2, acquaintances 5, acquainted 1, aware 6, BECOMES KNOWN 1, bring forth 1, cared 1, CHOSEN 2, clearly understand 2, COHABIT 1, comprehend 1, concern 2, concerned 1, consider 3, declare 1, detected 1, directed 1, discern 2, disciplined 1, discovered 3, distinguish 1, endowed 3, experienced 4, experiences 1, familiar friend 1, find 5, found 1, gain 1, had knowledge 1, had relations 6, had...relations 1, has 1, has regard 1, has...knowledge 1, have 4, have relations 3, have...knowledge 2, ignorant* 1, illiterate* 1, indeed learn 1, inform 1, informed 4, instruct 3, instructed 1, intimate friends 1, investigate 2, knew 38, know 542, know for certain 4, know with certainty 1, know ASSUREDLY 1, know well 1, knowing 5, knowledge 4, known 65, knows 54, knows well 1, lain* 1, leading 1, learn 7, learned 1, literate* 1, MADE HIMSELF KNOWN 2, made it known 1, made myself known 2, MADE KNOWN 10, make himself known 1, make his known 1, make it known 1, make my known 1, make myself known 4, make them known 1, make your known 1, make yourself known 1, make known 14, notice 2, observe 2, perceive 1, perceived 1, possibly know 1, predict 1, professional mourners 1, provided 1, raped 1, read* 1, REALIZE 1, realized 5, recognize 2, recognized 1, regard 1, satisfied* 1, seems 1, show 3, SHOWN 1, skillful 3, sure 1, take knowledge 1, take note 1, take notice 1, taught 2, teach 6, tell 3, tells 1, took notice 1, unaware* 1, unawares* 1, understand 10, understands 1, understood 3, unknown* 1, very well know 1, well aware 1

[Funky1096]

Biblically yes "SOME" of us in a way before conception. (long answer needs a new thread.)

"The three parts of us; spirit, soul and body, are mentioned together in one verse of note;
I Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Actually there is a soul, a dust body, and a spirit body.

heaven(where God is) is Biblically a physical place we can get too (die in the process but possible).

[Unregistered]

This is a question that normally requires a definition of the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' to answer?and to go deep would require pages & pages, references & cross-references. However, in order to explain it to children, I believe the Holy Spirit gave me an analogy which may be useful:

God is Spirit; He exists in all realms regardless of time. Earth is a physical, time-confined realm that He created. God used Earth-dust elements to create a physical body. Adam first existed when God breathed His Spirit into the physical body. This resulted in a living soul, a human soul, the first man. At this point in Earth-time, the man we now call Jesus was the Word.

In a small way, we can think of it like this: We are three-part beings; spirit, soul, body. Our soul, the portion that makes us a unique human, came into being at conception in Earth-time. Of course, God had planned it in eternity. Flour exists and sugar exists, but a birthday cake starts when they are joined together. The cake did not exist before, even though the ingredients existed. A cake still has substance from the flour and sweetness from the sugar, so it has attributes or qualities or traits that are like the ingredients that formed it.

Our souls can connect to the spirit because we are spirit. Our souls can connect to the physical because of our body, but this connection is limited to Earth-time because our body is made from earth-elements. (Because of this limitation, God has planned glorified bodies for us.)

Under natural circumstances, nothing can separate a cake. The Bible says that only the Word can separate spirit and soul. Did we exist before we were conceived? No, not as full humans, but a portion of our "ingredients" pre-existed. This understanding leads to new questions about how much communication and knowledge we can/should have with extra-dimensional realms.

[Rose]

This is a question that normally requires a definition of the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' to answer?and to go deep would require pages & pages, references & cross-references. However, in order to explain it to children, I believe the Holy Spirit gave me an analogy which may be useful:

God is Spirit; He exists in all realms regardless of time. Earth is a physical, time-confined realm that He created. God used Earth-dust elements to create a physical body. Adam first existed when God breathed His Spirit into the physical body. This resulted in a living soul, a human soul, the first man. At this point in Earth-time, the man we now call Jesus was the Word.

In a small way, we can think of it like this: We are three-part beings; spirit, soul, body. Our soul, the portion that makes us a unique human, came into being at conception in Earth-time. Of course, God had planned it in eternity. Flour exists and sugar exists, but a birthday cake starts when they are joined together. The cake did not exist before, even though the ingredients existed. A cake still has substance from the flour and sweetness from the sugar, so it has attributes or qualities or traits that are like the ingredients that formed it.

Our souls can connect to the spirit because we are spirit. Our souls can connect to the physical because of our body, but this connection is limited to Earth-time because our body is made from earth-elements. (Because of this limitation, God has planned glorified bodies for us.)

Under natural circumstances, nothing can separate a cake. The Bible says that only the Word can separate spirit and soul. Did we exist before we were conceived? No, not as full humans, but a portion of our "ingredients" pre-existed. This understanding leads to new questions about how much communication and knowledge we can/should have with extra-dimensional realms.

Hello Unregistered

It seems like the place where your analogy of the birthday cake breaks down is that the ingredients of flour and sugar are made up of the same atoms that are the building blocks of everything that exists in the universe. So, the flour and sugar have no cake qualities about them before the cake is made, just like the atoms that make up humans have no "humanness" about them before a human is conceived and formed.

Saying that the "ingredients" that make up humans pre-existed does not in any way show that "we" existed in any sense before we were conceived. All the energy in the universe that forms the atoms was created at the Big Bang, and is in a continual process of forming into different atoms and molecules. The atoms that are the "ingredients" of our bodies were formed in the heart of stars ... we are made of star dust :)

[Mad Mick]

Our Flesh is mortal
our Spirit immortal
yet our Souls remain erasable

eg.
Flesh = Hardware
Soul = Software
Spirit = Godsware

Hawking was wrong!
We cannot erase the past
yet as with freedom of choice,
we can choose to forgive and forget

Now that's what I call Grace!

Mick