Ephraim and Manasseh - Genesis 47-50

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Hi Richard & Everybody,

The following is the reading in the Synagogues around the world this Shabbat before Christmas; a nice expose on Scripture. I'm sure it will make for a great debate on this forum and I wish all a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS - with CHRIST in the MASS. AMen & Shalom!
Monique

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Vayechi
Written by Carl & Julie Parker
Friday, 21 December 2007
Scriptures
Genesis 47:28 to 50:26
1 Kings 2:1-12
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Hebrews 11:21-22 - New Testament Reading not read in the Synagogues)

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Joseph's Life: Part Four
Genesis 47:28 to 48:2
Because of Joseph’s obedience to YHVH and the prominent position he held in the land of Egypt, Jacob and his family were protected and taken care of while living in Goshen. Jacob/Israel had been in the land of Egypt for a total of seventeen years when, knowing how close he was to death, Jacob made burial arrangements with Joseph, his firstborn son. His last request was 'to be buried in the land of his anointing.'

Why was it important for Jacob to return home and not be buried outside the promised land? Jacob represented all twelve tribes of Israel. Going home and being buried in the land was prophetic of all Twelve Tribes coming out of the world–the Nations, and the world system (represented by Egypt)–and returning to YHVH and the inheritance He has for us, both physically and spiritually. By an oath, Joseph promised to carry his father’s body back to the land for burial.

Awhile later, when Jacob/Israel was ill, Joseph was summoned to his bedside. He took his two Egyptian-born sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, with him to see his father, for he understood that the time had come for the promise to be passed on.

When Jacob saw Joseph he said, 'El-Shaddai appeared to me at Luz (Bethel) in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me and said to me, ‘I am going to make you fruitful and will increase your numbers. I will make you a community of peoples, and I will give this land as an everlasting possession to your descendants after you’ ' (Genesis 48:3-4). The same promise and everlasting Covenant given to Abraham in Genesis 13, that was passed on to his son Isaac, the son of promise, then on to his grandson Jacob, was now being passed on to Joseph and his family, the next carriers of the Covenant.

Genesis 48:5-6
After confirming the Covenant to Joseph, Jacob/Israel talked to him about the two sons born to Joseph in Egypt before Jacob’s arrival by making the following unusual statement: 'And now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are [mine]' (Genesis 48:5).

Jacob was saying that Ephraim and Manasseh were to be his full sons–that they were to be as his full BLOOD sons. Even though their mother Asenath was an Egyptian, they were to be considered full sons, as it was the father’s bloodline, not the mother’s, that was important. In this, Jacob was also pronouncing something prophetic for the future of Joseph’s family of coming home to the land and taking up their full inheritance in the Messianic era. This is important information for the returning House of Israel today as they are considered full BLOOD sons, not just adopted or orphaned sons of Jacob’s family, or a gentile with pagan origins. The returning remnant is to be considered full, one hundred percent part of Israel by blood.

To make sure they understood this statement, Jacob added the clause: 'as Reuben and Simeon are.' Reuben and Simeon were full blood sons by his wife Leah and not through a maidservant. These two sons were the first and second born of the twelve sons of Jacob. With the above statement, Jacob effectively elevated Ephraim and Manasseh, his grandsons, to first and second born positions, and conferred the Covenant name Israel upon Ephraim along with the firstborn status (Jeremiah 31:9).

All Jacob’s sons were equal in YHVH’s sight but this statement was made as an important announcement to the brothers of Joseph, for their jealousy in the past had led them to hate Joseph and plan his murder. Jacob bypassed sibling rivalry and protected Joseph’s children and their future inheritance from that day on. There would be no robbery of Joseph and his sons’ inheritance. Their position as full sons of Jacob was protected and prophetically guaranteed, setting the stage for the future return of all Twelve Tribes back to the land. Not one tribe would be left out or missing. This was what the story of Joseph was really about, the preservation of the whole House of Jacob.

Jacob gave the birthright to his beloved Rachel’s firstborn son. He gave it to Joseph and to Joseph’s sons. In ancient Israel the birthright consisted of a double portion, as well as family preeminence (the right to act as the next family ruler). The Almighty commanded that the father must "acknowledge the firstborn…by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn" (Deuteronomy 21:17).

The firstborn was given a double portion, that he might be equipped to act as a kinsman-redeemer for his brethren. This right of the firstborn speaks of preeminence, primogeniture, the right to act as family ruler, to dispense justice, and to be the family redeemer.

He received the right to inherit family leadership (Genesis 43:33). Preferential status: sanctity, authority, sovereignty, responsibility, and right of succession accrued to (him)…he became the next head of the family…and embodied the soul and character of the social group, becoming responsible for its continuance and welfare. (Who Is Israel? Past, Present and Future by Batya Wootten).

Note: Ephraim and Manasseh were not adopted. The word adopted described one who generally had no blood ties to the family adopting them. Ephraim and Manasseh had Joseph’s (and Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham’s) blood in them. The Hebraic interpretation of adoption is absolute. The Greek interpretation of adoption leaves room for debate, implying the thought of second-class citizens. Adoption is another word introduced by the King James Version of the Brit Chadasha/New Testament. It is this interpretation that leads to the phrase and mindset of being spiritual Israelites. Many people today think they are solely spiritual Israel because the word adoption is used. The correct rendering of adoption in Scripture should be sonship. We who believe in the Messiah are full blood sons of Israel and heirs according to the eternal, everlasting promises given Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham... If you belong to Yeshua, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:7, 29).

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death... For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants (Hebrews 2:14, 16).

Note: This is neither British Israelism nor replacement theology. Do not let anyone lord anything over you, bully, or rob you of your rightful position and inheritance as part of Israel. Those who do are speaking from ignorance, or from what they have learned through man’s teaching that is not scriptural. The whole House of Israel–all twelve tribes are being recognized individually and as a whole, and are coming home. Scripture is very clear, those who believe are Abraham’s seed. Seed in the Greek is sperma (Strong’s #4690), meaning PHYSICAL SEED. Jacob did not have spiritual sons; Abraham’s seed is not merely spiritual or spiritual Israel but physical and physical Israel!

Romans 4:9-17 The Covenant Given To Abraham
Now is this blessing for the circumcised only? Or is it also for the uncircumcised? For we say that Abraham’s trust was credited to his account as righteousness; but what state was he in when it was so credited, circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision but in uncircumsion! In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him. AND AT THE SAME TIME be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had circumcision, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Abraham our father had when he was still uncircumcised [He is the Father of both].

For the promise to Abraham and his seed that he would inherit the world did not come through legalism but through the righteousness that trust produces. For if the heirs are produced by legalism, then trust is pointless and the promise worthless. For what law brings is punishment. But where there is no law, there is also no violation.

The reason the promise is based on trusting is so that it may come as YHVH’s free gift, a promise that can be relied on by ALL the seed, not only those who live within the framework of the Torah, but also those with the kind of trust Abraham had – He is the father of us ALL (Ephraim and Judah). This accords with the Tanakh, where it says, "I have made you a father of many nations" (CJB, ref. Genesis 17:5; Romans 3:30).

The problem with the body of believers in Messiah today is that many do not know who they are. They have no identity. If a people do not know who they are, they do not develop a respect for their heritage. If we are part of Israel coming home, we have a place, a people and a blessing in our Hebraic heritage according to an eternal covenant. Today, many have lost that identity and are walking as lost sheep without a shepherd. When we lose our identity a veil covers our heart due to our lack of understanding. Not knowing we are full, physical sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (meaning full blood relatives) causes us to miss our inheritance and be able to see only partially.

On the other hand, many today from the House of Judah tend to focus heavily on the 'law' (contained in the Mosaic Covenant) or the legal end of the Torah, without the fullness of Torah, or the Spirit of Torah, Yeshua. In doing so they miss the LIFE in Torah. The Mosaic Covenant can, in fact, also be understood as the teachings of Yeshua to Moses (John 5:46-47) and is the foundation of our Covenant with our Savior. But to separate law from the Spirit or Life of Torah (Yeshua) produces death. You cannot have one without the other. It is like having an engine without a car, or a motor without gas. Spirit (Yeshua) and Truth (Torah) must come together, as we cannot produce this life on our own. To walk in Torah and Yeshua is a gift from YHVH.

As carriers of the scepter (Torah), many in Judah have not recognized–or are unwilling to recognize–their brother Joseph and have missed the understanding and fullness of his return and heritage. Yes, Ephraim/Israel may still look Egyptian, but he is their full blood relative. Joseph’s brothers are still quarrelling and jealous. This is preventing them from coming home. Joseph is waking up to his heritage and coming to walk in his full sonship in the Covenant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that is renewed and fulfilled in the Messiah. Ephraim is learning to walk in YHVH’s promises stated in His teaching and instruction (Torah), is learning to keep the Sabbaths, Feasts and New Moon festivals and learning the difference between clean and unclean, holy and unholy. In this, Joseph will declare the truth (Torah) by the Spirit (Yeshua) and share the fullness of the 'gospel,' originally given us at Mount Sinai, with his brothers. This is how all the Nations will be blessed (Exodus 19:5-6; Ezekiel 44:23-24).

Jacob continued, 'Any children born to you after them (Ephraim and Manasseh) will be yours; in the territory they inherit they will be reckoned under the names of their brothers (Ephraim and Manasseh)' (Genesis 48:6). No other children from Joseph would be in the position that Ephraim and Manasseh would hold.

Genesis 48:8-22 Ephraim and Manasseh
After pronouncing this divine announcement, Jacob’s eyes were now open to see Ephraim and Manasseh as if for the first time. He asked Joseph, 'Who are these with you?' Joseph responded they were Ephraim and Manasseh, two sons who were prophetic of Joseph becoming doubly fruitful in the 'wilderness'. Jacob asked they be brought closer that he might see them, prophetic of the future events of Joseph’s life, family, and his descendents who have remained hidden yet are alive!

The time had come for Jacob to pass on the firstborn blessing to 'his' children by the laying on of hands. The younger son Ephraim was in front of Jacob’s left hand and the firstborn Manasseh was before his right hand. The right hand represented the authority of YHVH and is used when blessing and passing on inheritance. Jacob, being led by the Ruach HaChodesh/Holy Spirit, placed his right hand on Ephraim’s head and not on Manasseh’s head. He crossed his hands and pronounced the firstborn blessing upon the younger son, Ephraim, saying, 'May YHVH before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, Elohim who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm, may He bless these boys. May they be called by my name (Israel) and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly upon the earth' (Genesis 48:15-16).

Joseph was shocked when he saw his father’s right hand on Ephraim’s head instead of Manasseh’s head. He questioned his father about this but Jacob confirmed his choice by saying, 'He (Manasseh) will become a people, and he too will become great. Nevertheless, his younger brother (Ephraim) will be greater than he, and his descendants will become a group of nations.'

The 'fullness of the nations' is the House of Israel/Ephraim. The word goyim is Hebrew for Nations and has been incorrectly transliterated as Gentiles in some translations, especially in the Brit Chadasha/New Testament. When this happened, the understanding that the Nations held Jacob’s children was completely missed or lost, because the word gentile had no relationship to the Tribes of Jacob or anything Hebraic in the Bible. People became blind to their heritage and lost to the full understanding of Yeshua in the Brit Chadasha/New Testament. The word gentile means: a confused pagan without God, a group other than one’s own. Gentile does not describe YHVH’s people or those in Yeshua. When Yeshua indwells His people they are no longer confused, pagans or without God!

It is interesting to note that it was Jacob who passed the blessing on to Joseph’s sons and not Joseph himself. It was customary for a father to bless his sons before he passed away, with a special prayer of double blessing to rest on his firstborn son, or the son that would step into the role of firstborn, the leader of the family. In this case, however, we see Jacob bypassed Joseph’s authority and chose to directly pray that foremost blessing over YHVH’s chosen son, Ephraim, whose name means 'doubly fruitful' or 'I shall be doubly fruitful.' For Jacob, the memory of usurping Esau, his father’s choice for the birthright, may have been on his heart. Knowing Manasseh was Joseph’s first choice, Jacob obeyed the Ruach HaKodesh/Holy Spirit and eliminated the chance of a recurrence of the circumstances in which he had received the firstborn status instead of Esau, which caused years of alienation. This also confirmed that Ephraim and Manasseh were to be as Jacob’s true sons, and as their father, he blessed them.

Genesis 48:20 Blessing the Sons of Israel
With the formalities over, now came the final blessing, a blessing that is still pronounced over the sons of the Covenant today: 'In your name will Israel pronounce this blessing: ‘May YHVH make you like Ephraim and Manasseh.’ So he [Jacob] put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.'

Genesis 48:21-22 Future Return
He then said to Joseph, 'I am about to die, but YHVH will be with you [plural] and take you back to the land of your fathers.' This statement was prophetic for all Joseph’s descendants today.

When Jacob was about to die he assigned Joseph and Joseph’s family an allotment in the land. Jacob knew Egypt was only a temporary dwelling and the promises of YHVH were always before him. He spoke of the future to Joseph and gave him a portion of land above, or more than, his brothers. The word portion is in Hebrew the word shechem; shechem is also the word for shoulder, ridge, share, a city in Northern Israel, and the area around the northern city. Shechem is in the area called the West Bank today, a hotly disputed piece of property that has been used in bartering for peace.

Genesis 49:1-28 Jacob Blesses His Sons
All twelve sons receive prophetic blessings as Jacob’s life closes. He called to them, 'Gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come.' As Jacob blessed each son, we see that Judah was given 'the scepter.' Jacob said, 'The scepter shall not depart from Judah nor a scholar from among his descendants until Shiloh arrives.'
(Reading in all the Catholic Churches last Monday, 12/17/07 - see Hanukkah post / White) dated :12/16/07 and 12/21/07)

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Continued from new Thread - Epraihm & Manasseh

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew [Judah], or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they [Judah] have been entrusted with the very words of YHVH (Romans 3:1-2).

The scepter given Judah was the Torah, the very Words of YHVH. They are the keepers of His Word; they have cared for YHVH’s Words with their very life. They were to keep the scepter until Shiloh arrived. Shiloh is a reference to the Messiah, the Word of YHVH made flesh. The prophets record the time of the Messiah coming. The Brit Chadasha/New Testament proclaims the fulfillment of their prophecies: “The Word [of YHVH, Torah] became flesh and dwelled among us” (John 1:1, 14). If the Messiah’s first coming has been revealed, then part of the prophecy over Judah has also been fulfilled.

Much of Judah is not aware of this fulfillment or the prophecy of all twelve tribes returning. Judah’s brothers, who today can, for the most part, be seen as the majority of believers coming from a Church background, are aware of the Messiah. They are still unaware, however, of the prophecies of the return of the twelve tribes or about walking in Torah. The House of Judah tends to guard or legally police the Word of YHVH and feels they should lead Israel’s restoration. Nevertheless their efforts thus far have excluded those who do not choose to convert to Judaism. On the other hand, the Church feels they have replaced Israel and are restored without their Hebraic roots. They want to keep the Messiah minus His Hebraic heritage. Both houses are lacking and both need to come back to their roots (Moses’ teaching) in order to see and worship the true Messiah in Spirit and in Truth (John 5:46-47). The Word (Torah) that became flesh is Yeshua, the Messiah, the Ruler and the Scepter of YHVH. (addition by White: And truly present in the Holy Eucharist according to John 6, or do you want to go away also ? John 6:66)

Judah carries the kingly portion and their job was to share the Word of YHVH with the nations and teach them the ways of YHVH so they too could come and walk with YHVH. In many cases Judah did not share the Word of YHVH to the Nations, nor did they study it themselves. The Torah had become as rote to them and many even made the Torah an idol. Judah began to study other materials like the Talmud and Kabbalah teachings, which they used in replacement for the need of the Ruach HaKodesh (Spirit of God) to teach them. They lifted other teaching higher than the Torah and left the teaching YHVH gave Moses far behind.

In the Brit Chadasha/New Testament, the book of Luke illustrates Yeshua teaching from Moses and the Prophets. Acts 15 describes the event of the Jerusalem council when the disciples recommended that all those returning to YHVH should go into the synagogues because “Moses [was] taught every Sabbath.” In this way they would learn YHVH’s ways that they might not fall away again. They recommended Torah as their number one and only study source for all people. If we go into a synagogue today, would we find the rabbis teaching Moses from the Torah? If we went into a Church today, would we find the pastors teaching Moses from the Torah? That is what the Jerusalem Council recommended to Paul and to all those who followed the Messiah. Thirty years after Yeshua died Paul was still teaching Moses in all the synagogues and in every city wherever he went (Luke 24:27; 44; Acts 15:13-21; 28:23).

Yeshua said this about himself, “IF you believed Moses you would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My words?” (John 5:46-47).

Ephraim has the double portion and is being taught by the Spirit of YHVH by divine revelation. It is the Spirit and Truth of Torah that is teaching them. Judah today is searching for the Spirit of Torah (Yeshua), which is in the care of Joseph. According to the prophetic story of Joseph and his brothers, they will come to Joseph to buy the grain. Joseph will share freely, as YHVH’s Word is without cost and without restraints. Selah.

Romans 11:25-27 All Israel Will Be Saved
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel [House of Judah] has experienced a hardening [blindness] in part until the full number of Gentiles [Nations – Ephraim, the House of Israel] has come in. And so all Israel [the Whole House of Israel – both Houses - all Twelve Tribes] will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this will be my Covenant with them when I take away their sins" (ref. Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Isaiah 6:9; 8:14 to both House of Israel; Matthew 13:15; Luke 8:10; 1 Peter 2:8-10).

“Until the full number of Gentiles (Nations) has come in” is the appointed time when the exile of the House of Israel, who have been dispersed and hidden among the nations, ends and the restoration back to the Covenants of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob begins.

When the sons of Jacob were recorded in 1 Chronicles, Reuben is listed as “the firstborn of Israel.” Then the scripture continues, “but when he defiled his father’s marriage bed, his rights as firstborn were given to the sons of Joseph son of Israel; so he could not be listed in the genealogical record in accordance with his birthright, and though Judah was the strongest of his brothers and a ruler came from him (Yeshua), the rights of the firstborn belonged to Joseph” (1 Chronicles 5:1-2).

After Jacob spoke prophetically to Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, and Naphtali, he blessed Joseph. Joseph carries the birthright, the Covenant, and the priestly portion. The reason why this is so important is because the Messiah will return when Judah’s kingly portion AND Joseph’s priestly portion “join” and become “one” in the Father’s hand. This is called the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7). The Two Houses, all twelve tribes, must come together and be one–one in unity in Yeshua.

As stated before, many in the Church practice replacement theology, and many in Judah today have also taken up replacement theology, just in reverse. They feel all twelve tribes are included and are evidenced in the one tribe of Judah. Their belief is that the tribe of Judah, which became the strongest tribe, also took the firstborn position from Joseph/Ephraim. But we are all “firstborn” in Yeshua. Joseph/Ephraim has remained hidden from Judah for an appointed time; this is the work of the Ruach (Spirit). Prophetically, all the words of the prophets are eternal, and we have an everlasting Covenantal promise that will come about in its appointed season. Both Houses have broken the Covenant with the Father (Jeremiah 11:10), yet there are those that say Judah has been fully faithful and so should lead in Israel’s restoration. This does not line up with the Word of YHVH that states only the Messiah can lead, as the state of both Houses shows the need for further repair.

In the story of Joseph, it was Joseph who revealed the true heart of Torah to his brothers. Accordingly, this prophetic story will again unfold just as it did in Genesis, with the House of Israel revealing the Life in Torah to his brothers, House of Judah, through the liaison, the tribe of Benjamin.

Jacob’s blessing is truly fulfilled in the Messiah, Yeshua. He knew no mere mortal could in himself fulfill the high calling of Israel. Jacob knew that one becomes Israel only when their soul and character becomes like that of the Messiah. Yeshua was sent to restore Israel’s preserved ones, and those who take refuge in Him are forever preserved. They are “the righteous [who] will inherit the land and dwell in it forever” (Psalm 16:1; 37:28).

“My Covenant shall be confirmed to Him (Messiah). So I will establish His seed forever” (Psalm 89:28-29). These same children are called “to the general assembly and ekklesia of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven to Yeshua, the mediator of the new covenant” (Hebrews 12:22-24). These firstborn ones have become one with THE Firstborn – Messiah Yeshua. For He is the “head of the body, the ekklesia; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18). In Israel, Yeshua has firstborn supremacy and the double portion. He is the High Priest and the King of kings. Only He fulfills all the requirements to be Jacob’s heir. Yeshua is both Israel the Firstborn, and Ephraim the Firstborn. Both titles are His because He is the epitome of the Powerful Prevailing Prince of Israel – He is the only One truly capable of ruling with YHVH Elohim. Only He could have paid the price!” (Who Is Israel? Past Present and Future by Batya Wootten).

Ezekiel 37:16-19 Two Sticks Become One
Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, "Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him." Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, "Ephraim’s stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him." Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand. When your countrymen ask you, "Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?" say to them, "This is what YHVH says: 'I am going to take the stick of Joseph – which is in Ephraim’s hand – and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'"

Why is this important? Together, the Two Houses, the kingly and priestly lines, are called the order of Melchizedek. According to Scripture, Melchizedek was a king and a priest. King David was a king and a priest in the order of Melchizedek. Yeshua is King and Priest in that same order. When we as a people (House of Judah and House of Israel) come together in the order of Melchizedek, the time of the Messiah’s return is at hand (Genesis 14:18; 2 Samuel 7:12-16).

Ephesians 2:14-16 One New Man
For He [Yeshua] Himself is our peace, who has made the two [House of Judah and the House of Israel] one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations [that was against us because of our disobedience]. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to YHVH through the cross, by which He put to death their hostility.”

Genesis 49:29-50:14 The Death of Jacob
Jacob again gave detailed instructions about his burial, requesting that his body be returned to the promised land. When he finished sharing, he breathed his last and was gathered to his people. Joseph grieved deeply for him. He then directed the Egyptian physicians to embalm his father, a way to keep the body preserved and free from decay. The embalming procedure took forty days, and was a process in which many of the vital organs were removed and the body was prepared for dehydration. A total of seventy days would complete the whole mummification process. During that time all Egypt mourned for Jacob.

When it came time to bury his father, Joseph asked Pharaoh’s permission to leave Egypt and go to the land of Canaan. So well-liked was Joseph that the Egyptians paid honor to his father; all Pharaoh’s officials and dignitaries of his court joined him, as well as all the members of Joseph’s family, along with his brothers and his father’s household. They traveled in a very large company with chariots and horsemen. Only their children and flocks and herds remained in Goshen.

This would have been Joseph’s first time back in the land since being sold by his brothers. When they reached the exact burial place they lamented loudly and bitterly. Could they have been weeping over more than the loss of Jacob? Could they have wept for their loss of the land and lamenting the fact they could not stay? Would they have also wept and interceded for YHVH’s people who would go into captivity in future generations after them and prayed prophetically for their return?

Joseph observed a seven-day period of mourning for his father. During that time the Canaanites of the region said, “The Egyptians are holding a solemn ceremony of mourning.” It is interesting that the Canaanites did not recognize the Israelites among the Egyptians as apparently all had the look of Egypt about them. Could this be the same today, even among we who are returning? YHVH has us remaining hidden for a season, but there will be a time that we must take off our Egyptian clothing, behavior, mindset and habits. How else are we going to be recognized as YHVH’s people among the Nations? After Joseph buried his father, the whole company returned to Egypt, back to the land of Goshen, as the prophetic time of their return had not yet come. A full 400 years had to pass before the prophetic return would come to pass (Genesis 15:13; Galatians 3:16-18).

Genesis 50:15-21 Joseph and His Brothers
With Jacob their father gone, the fear of Joseph struck his brothers. They started talking about Joseph behind his back. This was a very grievous thing to do and is called lashon hara in Hebrew meaning to gossip and slander. This could only have happened if they had not repented for their earlier action towards him. They had been carrying unforgiveness against Joseph almost forty years. They handled it by sending a letter to him. In it they said, “Your father left these instructions before he died: ‘This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your brothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.’ Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father.” Reading this, Joseph wept.

Joseph’s brothers had not recognized that Joseph had forgiven them and that it was they who were harboring unforgiveness against Joseph. Joseph could not have provided all the food, protection and the best of the land of Egypt if he had not already offered them forgiveness. In all that Joseph had done for them, he had literally saved their lives. An unforgiving heart could not have reached out the way Joseph’s did and provide abundantly, giving unselfishly to others time and time again. Joseph had given freely to them all these years. To see this behavior still going on in his brothers’ hearts grieved Joseph deeply.

Only after the letter did the brothers have courage to come face to face with Joseph. To further confirm the inclination and guilt of their hearts, they threw themselves at his feet saying, “We are your slaves!” Thus Joseph’s earlier dream was fulfilled (Genesis 37:5-9).

Unforgiveness can cloud one’s view and prevent the truth. Unfortunately the sons of Israel continued to walk in this way even in Moses’ time when they left Egypt, as we get glimpses of this same mindset throughout Scripture. Even today it is prevalent in the heart of the brothers toward Joseph. Metaphorically speaking, Joseph has been in the Wilderness a long time, and during this time has learned to lean on his staff, the Torah. Ephraim is learning YHVH’s ways and coming home. Not all Israel is Israel, according to Romans 9:6. Those who love their brothers and care for them are the true sons of Joseph. Judah may not recognize Joseph now, but we pray they will, and when they do, Joseph will have the grain/Bread that gives life and will lead his brothers home.

Joseph said, “Do not be afraid. Am I in the place of YHVH [judging you]? You intended to harm me, but YHVH intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don’t be afraid. I will provide for you and your children” (Genesis 50:19-21). This is prophetic language for our day.

They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son (Jeremiah 31:9).

Genesis 50:22-26 Joseph’s Death
Joseph lived in Egypt with all his father’s family. He lived to see the third generation of Ephraim’s children. He also saw Manasseh’s son who came to him for a blessing. At this time, Joseph shared with his brothers the blessings of YHVH, saying, “YHVH will surely come to your aid and take you up out of this land to the land he promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Genesis 15:13-14). With this, Joseph made them swear to take his bones with them when they left Egypt. At one hundred and ten, Joseph died. They embalmed him and placed him in a coffin in Egypt waiting to be brought home as had been done with Jacob.

By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones (Hebrews 11:21-22).

Chazak! Chazak! Venischazeik!
Be Strong! Be Strong!
And May We Be Strengthened!

Shabbat Shalom,
Carl and Julie Parker
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End of quote:
Shalom to Jerusalem & the Holy Land
Merry Christmas to all
Monique

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard & Everybody,

The following is the reading in the Synagogues around the world this Shabbat before Christmas; a nice expose on Scripture. I'm sure it will make for a great debate on this forum and I wish all a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS - with CHRIST in the MASS. AMen & Shalom!
Monique

Hi Monique!

Thanks for posting this "grist for the mill." Its very useful to see what is being taught in the Messianic congregations. I'll toss it in the "fire" to see what remains. :D

[Note: I'll use blue highlights, and leave your reds in place so folks can know who emphasized what.]


Vayechi
Written by Carl & Julie Parker
Friday, 21 December 2007
Scriptures
Genesis 47:28 to 50:26
1 Kings 2:1-12
********
Hebrews 11:21-22 - New Testament Reading not read in the Synagogues)

*********
Joseph's Life: Part Four
Genesis 47:28 to 48:2
Because of Joseph’s obedience to YHVH and the prominent position he held in the land of Egypt, Jacob and his family were protected and taken care of while living in Goshen. Jacob/Israel had been in the land of Egypt for a total of seventeen years when, knowing how close he was to death, Jacob made burial arrangements with Joseph, his firstborn son. His last request was 'to be buried in the land of his anointing.'

Why was it important for Jacob to return home and not be buried outside the promised land? Jacob represented all twelve tribes of Israel. Going home and being buried in the land was prophetic of all Twelve Tribes coming out of the world–the Nations, and the world system (represented by Egypt)–and returning to YHVH and the inheritance He has for us, both physically and spiritually. By an oath, Joseph promised to carry his father’s body back to the land for burial.

I think that's an excellent understanding of the typology of Egypt.


Awhile later, when Jacob/Israel was ill, Joseph was summoned to his bedside. He took his two Egyptian-born sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, with him to see his father, for he understood that the time had come for the promise to be passed on.

When Jacob saw Joseph he said, 'El-Shaddai appeared to me at Luz (Bethel) in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me and said to me, ‘I am going to make you fruitful and will increase your numbers. I will make you a community of peoples, and I will give this land as an everlasting possession to your descendants after you’ ' (Genesis 48:3-4). The same promise and everlasting Covenant given to Abraham in Genesis 13, that was passed on to his son Isaac, the son of promise, then on to his grandson Jacob, was now being passed on to Joseph and his family, the next carriers of the Covenant.

This is a major error. They have falsely identified the "blessing" with the "covenant." They are not the same thing at all. Different blessings were given to each Tribe, but they all were subject to the ONE COVENANT given at Sinia. And besides, there is no mention of any "covenant" in Jacob's blessing in Gen 48 at all. And besides that, Jacob did not have the ability to selectively "pass on" a covenant that God had made. On the contrary, it was GOD who made the covenant with Abraham and "his seed" - Abraham then could not pick and choose those amongst who would be the "next carriers of the Covenant" (though God could and did choose one and reject the other, i.e. Isaac over Ishmael). So neither could Jacob choose who would be the recipient of God's covenant or promises. That was GOD'S CHOICE, and GOD'S CHOICE ALONE. And does the Bible ever say that God chose Mannasseh to be the "carrier of the Covenant?" NO. Their entire article is therefore founded upon error. It will be interesting to see how this error propogates through the rest of the article.


Genesis 48:5-6
After confirming the Covenant to Joseph,

Joseph did not "confirm the Covenant." There was not "Covenant" to confirm. God had made a "promise" and Joseph repeated the promise in Gen 48. That's all.


Jacob/Israel talked to him about the two sons born to Joseph in Egypt before Jacob’s arrival by making the following unusual statement: 'And now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are [mine]' (Genesis 48:5).

Jacob was saying that Ephraim and Manasseh were to be his full sons–that they were to be as his full BLOOD sons. Even though their mother Asenath was an Egyptian, they were to be considered full sons, as it was the father’s bloodline, not the mother’s, that was important. In this, Jacob was also pronouncing something prophetic for the future of Joseph’s family of coming home to the land and taking up their full inheritance in the Messianic era. This is important information for the returning House of Israel today as they are considered full BLOOD sons, not just adopted or orphaned sons of Jacob’s family, or a gentile with pagan origins. The returning remnant is to be considered full, one hundred percent part of Israel by blood.


The Messianic era started when the Messiah was born. The "full inheritance" is CHRIST, not some carnal chunk of dirt. The "House of Israel" is not due to get some "inheretance" different than that of all other believers in Christ. That is the plain teaching of the HOLY BIBLE, as it is written:
Ephesians 3:4-6 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
You see, the Bible proves over and over and over again that all Christians are totally equal with Jews and the "House of Israel" in all the promises of God. There is ONE BODY! See that? Its written right there in blue. Gentiles ar FELLOW HEIRS just like Ephraim and Manasseh were considered full sons so are the Gentiles. How is it possible that these simply and obvious truths are denied by the "Messianic" teachers?


To make sure they understood this statement, Jacob added the clause: 'as Reuben and Simeon are.' Reuben and Simeon were full blood sons by his wife Leah and not through a maidservant. These two sons were the first and second born of the twelve sons of Jacob. With the above statement, Jacob effectively elevated Ephraim and Manasseh, his grandsons, to first and second born positions, and conferred the Covenant name Israel upon Ephraim along with the firstborn status (Jeremiah 31:9).

All Jacob’s sons were equal in YHVH’s sight but this statement was made as an important announcement to the brothers of Joseph, for their jealousy in the past had led them to hate Joseph and plan his murder. Jacob bypassed sibling rivalry and protected Joseph’s children and their future inheritance from that day on. There would be no robbery of Joseph and his sons’ inheritance. Their position as full sons of Jacob was protected and prophetically guaranteed, setting the stage for the future return of all Twelve Tribes back to the land. Not one tribe would be left out or missing. This was what the story of Joseph was really about, the preservation of the whole House of Jacob.

It is quite interesting that even the primary "two house" teacher Batya Wootten has an appendix in her book "Who is Israel" that quotes the book Mapping Human History: Discovering the Past through our Genes (http://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Human-History-Discovering-Through/dp/0618091572) as stating that "In fact, everyone on earth is by now a descendant of Abraham." Though not exactly correct becuase of various isolated people groups, it is true that at least 95% of the human population is genetically related to Abraham, and more specifically Jacob/Israel. So the House of Israel has now mixed so thoroughly with the Gentiles that it itself has BECOME the Genitles, or we should say, has contributed her tiny bit of Israeli blood to the blood of the mass of humanity. And in this process, the House of Israel has utterly ceased to exist. It has been annihilated in the sea of Genitles.

But none of that matters anyway, because the doctrine that there is a "special" inheritance for carnal descendants of Abraham is one of the most obvious false doctrines ever promulgated in the histroy of the Church. Paul went to great lengths to prove that the carnal children of Abraham were NOT the children of God and were NOT given any promises at all.


All God's promises were given to the Children of Promise, which are the Chirstians, as it is written:
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Galatians 4:28 Now we, [Christian] brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.



Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Why do they reject the plain teaching of the Bible?


Jacob gave the birthright to his beloved Rachel’s firstborn son. He gave it to Joseph and to Joseph’s sons. In ancient Israel the birthright consisted of a double portion, as well as family preeminence (the right to act as the next family ruler). The Almighty commanded that the father must "acknowledge the firstborn…by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn" (Deuteronomy 21:17).

That's fine. But it does not mean that humans are able to pick and choose amongst their children and to whom they will "pass on" God's Covenant. That is God's choice, not man's.


The firstborn was given a double portion, that he might be equipped to act as a kinsman-redeemer for his brethren. This right of the firstborn speaks of preeminence, primogeniture, the right to act as family ruler, to dispense justice, and to be the family redeemer.

He received the right to inherit family leadership (Genesis 43:33). Preferential status: sanctity, authority, sovereignty, responsibility, and right of succession accrued to (him)…he became the next head of the family…and embodied the soul and character of the social group, becoming responsible for its continuance and welfare. (Who Is Israel? Past, Present and Future by Batya Wootten).

Hey there! I just quoted that book before I read this section. The irony is that it proves the entire "two house" therory to be false from genetics, let alone Bible.


Note: Ephraim and Manasseh were not adopted. The word adopted described one who generally had no blood ties to the family adopting them. Ephraim and Manasseh had Joseph’s (and Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham’s) blood in them. The Hebraic interpretation of adoption is absolute. The Greek interpretation of adoption leaves room for debate, implying the thought of second-class citizens. Adoption is another word introduced by the King James Version of the Brit Chadasha/New Testament. It is this interpretation that leads to the phrase and mindset of being spiritual Israelites. Many people today think they are solely spiritual Israel because the word adoption is used. The correct rendering of adoption in Scripture should be sonship. We who believe in the Messiah are full blood sons of Israel and heirs according to the eternal, everlasting promises given Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

That's an excellent point. I agree that "adoption" is not the best choice of words there. The Greek is huiothesia and it does mean "sonship." But the inclusion of the word "blood" in the phrase "full blood sons of Israel" is very confusing because the word "blood" in that sense means literal physical descent and so is not true. A better statement would be to say that all Christians are "fully sons of Israel." We are not "blood" descendents in the sense that we are not carnal Israel.


Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham... If you belong to Yeshua, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise (Galatians 3:7, 29).

Exactly correct.


Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death... For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants (Hebrews 2:14, 16).

Note: This is neither British Israelism nor replacement theology. Do not let anyone lord anything over you, bully, or rob you of your rightful position and inheritance as part of Israel. Those who do are speaking from ignorance, or from what they have learned through man’s teaching that is not scriptural. The whole House of Israel–all twelve tribes are being recognized individually and as a whole, and are coming home.

Given that at least 95% of the human race are blood descendents of the "House of Israel" - somebody better get a big building program going in Palestine! The population of the whole planet is coming your way folks! :lol:

The assertion that "the whole House of Israel" is meaningless. There is no "House of Israel" and even if there were, it wouldn't have anything to do with the Bible.


Scripture is very clear, those who believe are Abraham’s seed. Seed in the Greek is sperma (Strong’s #4690), meaning PHYSICAL SEED. Jacob did not have spiritual sons; Abraham’s seed is not merely spiritual or spiritual Israel but physical and physical Israel!
That is ludicrous misinterpretation of the Bible. The word "seed" OBVIOUSLY can have a symbolic meaning in the Bible. Everyone knows this. Paul Himself says that any believer whether or not literally the "seed of Abraham" is counted as seed.


The problem with the body of believers in Messiah today is that many do not know who they are. They have no identity. If a people do not know who they are, they do not develop a respect for their heritage. If we are part of Israel coming home, we have a place, a people and a blessing in our Hebraic heritage according to an eternal covenant. Today, many have lost that identity and are walking as lost sheep without a shepherd. When we lose our identity a veil covers our heart due to our lack of understanding. Not knowing we are full, physical sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (meaning full blood relatives) causes us to miss our inheritance and be able to see only partially.
This is the part that makes no sense at all. What do they mean by "physical sons?" As noted above, everyone is a "physical" descendent of Abraham, so that idea can not give an "identity" to Christians. And again, this is carnal theology with no value or meaning to Christians or Jews or Messianics.


On the other hand, many today from the House of Judah tend to focus heavily on the 'law' (contained in the Mosaic Covenant) or the legal end of the Torah, without the fullness of Torah, or the Spirit of Torah, Yeshua. In doing so they miss the LIFE in Torah. The Mosaic Covenant can, in fact, also be understood as the teachings of Yeshua to Moses (John 5:46-47) and is the foundation of our Covenant with our Savior. But to separate law from the Spirit or Life of Torah (Yeshua) produces death. You cannot have one without the other. It is like having an engine without a car, or a motor without gas. Spirit (Yeshua) and Truth (Torah) must come together, as we cannot produce this life on our own. To walk in Torah and Yeshua is a gift from YHVH.

Those ideas about Law and Gospel don't seem to have anything to do with the Biblical teaching on the sunject. We are DEAD to the Torah through the death of Christ. Jesus is not the "Life of Torah." That language is never used anywhere in the New Testament. On the contrary, the Torah KILLS (as they rightly noted) with out with out Christ. It is because we DIED to the Torah with Christ when He DIED that we now are free from the CURSE OF TORAH and are married to ANOTHER. Cast out the bondwoman and her son (carnal Torah observance).


As carriers of the scepter (Torah), many in Judah have not recognized–or are unwilling to recognize–their brother Joseph and have missed the understanding and fullness of his return and heritage.

What return? It seems they are saying that Christians who fantasize that they are literal physicial descendants of Abraham are "Joseph" who is "returning." That is false.


Yes, Ephraim/Israel may still look Egyptian, but he is their full blood relative. Joseph’s brothers are still quarrelling and jealous. This is preventing them from coming home. Joseph is waking up to his heritage and coming to walk in his full sonship in the Covenant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that is renewed and fulfilled in the Messiah.

It was not "renewed." It was a NEW covenant, meaning NEW in the sense of a different kind of covenant "not according to the covenant I made with their fathers" says the Lord.


Ephraim is learning to walk in YHVH’s promises stated in His teaching and instruction (Torah),

Ahhh .... I was wondering how long it would be before we encounterd the gross heresy of "Torah keeping." That is the "other gospel" that Paul said was "anathema" (accursed).


is learning to keep the Sabbaths, Feasts and New Moon festivals and learning the difference between clean and unclean, holy and unholy.

What horrors! What abominations! Christians are being taught to return to the dead works the Law! Sabbaths and New Moons and a full return to the Old Covenant Law? Bloody sacrifices and circumcision?! Back to Egypt! Back to bondage! A full denial of the Gospel! Gross heresy!


In this, Joseph will declare the truth (Torah) by the Spirit (Yeshua) and share the fullness of the 'gospel,' originally given us at Mount Sinai, with his brothers. This is how all the Nations will be blessed (Exodus 19:5-6; Ezekiel 44:23-24).
And now their HERESY has been fully manifested. They identify the LAW that KILLS with the GOSPEL that gives LIFE! When the LAW was given 3000 DIED. When the Spirit wrote the New Law on our hearts at Penetocst, 3000 were saved.

The LAW is not the GOSPEL! Only a Judaizer could make such a mistake.

That's as far as we need go in this review. This article by Carl & Julie Parker is filled with extreme errors and gross heresies. The fruit of these carnal theologies obsessed with carnal Israel reveals all we need to know about the "theological tree" upon which it grows. It is an abomination and must be rejected with great vigor.

Richard

[White]

Thanks Richard for your response - some positive, much negative.
Still much open for discussion. How about this one:

Richard writes:

The assertion that "the whole House of Israel" is meaningless. There is no "House of Israel" and even if there were, it wouldn't have anything to do with the Bible.

What??????

Then what did JESUS mean in Matthew 10:5-6:
Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, "DO NOT GO INTO PAGAN TERRITORY OR ENTER A SAMARITAN TOWN. GO RATHER TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

I don't have any time right now to disect your answers, but you might enjoy the following article which is good food for thought for this forum : Torah: Under Law or Under Grace...


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Torah: Under Law or Under Grace?
by Rav Mordecai Silver

The Talmud tells the story of a proselyte who came to the great sage, Hillel, in the First Century B.C.E. and asked to be taught the whole Torah quickly, in the time that he could remain standing on one foot. Instead of losing his temper at this impossibly presumptuous request, Hillel showed great patience and understanding. He answered by saying: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others. This is the whole Torah, the rest is its commentary. Go and study it" (Shabbat 31a).

Hillel’s statement, his way of expounding upon the Biblical commandment, “and you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus - Vayikra 19:18), may still stand as the capsule summary of Judaism. It is, however, still essential to “go and study the rest.”

Many believers, whether Jew or Christian are under the understanding that with the coming of Messiah Yeshua, we are no longer under the Torah or “law,” but under “grace.”

Mathew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill." Has Messiah Yeshua fulfilled all the law, or better yet, has He fulfilled the Torah?

ALL of it?

Mathew 5:18: “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the Torah until all is accomplished.”

Has it all been accomplished? Has the Torah, the five Books of Moshe, been fulfilled in their entirety?

Think about that before you answer.

Colossians 2:14: “Erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the Tree.”

Many use this Scripture as showing that the “law” has been set aside. The “law” has been set aside, and the Torah of God has been returned to its rightful place. The demands of Pharisaical Judaism, where the righteousness of the “law” was paraded around on the outside of a person who on the inside was dead, has been replaced with the Torah of truth and love. God's Torah!

Romans 2:20: “…a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the Torah the embodiment of knowledge and truth.”

Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under Torah but under grace.”

Romans 5:20: “But Torah came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.”

The Torah showed us the sin that we were under.

The Torah showed us the grace of God. For without Torah we would not have known that we were sinners, living in strife with the Torah, the Word of God.

Romans 7:12: “So the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.”

Scripture is filled with the Word of God upholding the Torah, the commandments of God. The Mitzvot.

All of those men and women of God who lived in the pages of the Old Covenant, lived under the commandments of God but were not saved by their faith in the Torah, but were saved by their faith in the Word of God.

Romans 7:25: “Thanks be to God through Messiah Yeshua our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the Torah of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the Torah of sin.”

Romans 8:2: “For the Torah of the Spirit of life in Mashiach Yeshua has made me free from the Torah of sin and death.”

The Grace of God is what saves, not the law. But without the law we would not know what sin is. Do we have the audacity to believe that we do not need the commandments of God anymore that with the coming of Messiah we are perfected to the point that we no longer need His commandments to guide our lives?

Sha'ul made the statement best. We are slaves to the law of God and to the law of sin. But we have been freed by the grace of God. The law shows us the way, the grace of God saves.

Now why don't we take a look at the issue of grace, and see if this is really a NT covenant.

Genesis 6:8: “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”

Exodus 33:12: “Moses said to the Lord, ‘See, you have said to me, “Bring up this people”; but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.”’”

Exodus 33:17: “The Lord said to Moses, ‘I will do the very thing that you have asked; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.’”

Ezra 9:8: “But now for a brief moment favor has been shown by the Lord our God, who has left us a remnant, and given us a stake in his holy place, in order that he may brighten our eyes and grant us a little sustenance in our slavery.”

Psalm 84:11: “For the Lord God is a sun and shield; he bestows favor and honor. No good thing does the Lord withhold from those who walk uprightly.”

Are you getting the picture? Grace is not a NT Dispensation. Even under the Bringer of the “Law,” Moshe, there was grace first. Without grace Moses and the children of Israel would have been like the rest of the “goyim” (nations) of the earth. Following the “Law” did not bring the children of Israel God’s love nor merit His grace. God gave these things freely to those who were called His people.

Jeremiah 31:2: “Thus says the Lord: The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest.”

Zechariah 12:10: “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

These are ALL OT Scriptures So, what do we see here? First off, Israel HAS NOT been replaced by the church. Second, love is not a NT invention. Third, grace began way back in Genesis in the OT. Love and Grace are not NT inspired. We have always needed the love and grace of God. Without it we are nothing. But we also needed to know God’s commandments. Without His Mitzvot (commandments), how would we ever hope to know what it was that God wanted us to do? We need to know how we are to live. We cannot just go around blindly without direction. The Torah is His directions to us. The Torah is His love and grace to us. He loved us enough to show us His way.

God’s commandments, His teachings, His instructions that we find in the pages of Torah, are how we know what is right and wrong in the eyes of God. Love and grace do not show us what sin is in the eyes of the Father. Yeshua did not die because of love and grace. He died because of our sin!

John 1:14-16: “And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth…From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Yeshua Ha’Mashiach.”

We learned how to distinguish between what God loved and did not love through His commandments.

But through Yeshua we learned what the true intent of the Torah was. That God loved us. Moshe brought the Torah and with it we learned what sin was. Sin brought Spiritual death. Yeshua was the heart of the Torah and with Him came life from the Spiritual death of sin. Yeshua was the Living Word of God and He was in the Words of the OT as well as in the NT.

We see the love and grace of God all over the pages of the OT. With Moses we finally see the commandments of God written down for a people. God was calling a people His own. He was showing His love and grace by giving a people His Torah.

Acts 13:43: “When the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.”

Grace in the synagogue. Grace among the Jews.

Acts 15:11: “On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Yeshua, just as they will.”

Grace is in the truth of God. The truth comes through knowledge of His Word. His Word is Yeshua. Yeshua is Torah.

Acts 20:24: “But I do not count my life of any value to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Yeshua, to testify to the good news of God's grace.”

Acts 20:32: “And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.”

Through His Word we find grace. We need a path to get to God. That path is His Word. Torah brings us to God. Torah is Yeshua. We need guidelines to live by. The two most important commandments are: To love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and strength and To love your neighbor as yourself. But these are not the only commandments, these are the two most important. When Yeshua spoke of these He was speaking to Judah.

Romans 3:24: “…they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in the Mashiach Yeshua.”

Romans 12:3: “For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”

If I as a Jew wish to follow the commandments handed down to Israel from generation to generation, why do people get so worked up over it? I know that my faith is in Yeshua. I have received Salvation in Him. He is Salvation. His name Yeshua means Salvation, the Salvation of God. The same holds true for those from Ephraim who also choose to follow the Torah as given to Israel. Torah is for ALL of Israel --- Judah and Ephraim! Salvation is a free gift from God to all of His people. Faith in God by accepting Yeshua as Messiah, as the debt for our sins, is the only way to receive the promise of eternal life. Sin, though, is defined by the Torah the Word of God given to us as a nation by Moses and confirmed by Yeshua the Son of God and the Living Torah.

But as part of my walk with Messiah I choose to follow His Torah. In doing this I choose to imitate Yeshua, because He is the living Word of God. He is the Living Torah.

He lived His life following Torah. He could not do otherwise, because He is the Torah. How could He disobey Himself? In following Torah He obeyed His Father. If I choose to follow Torah as an expression of my faith knowing full well that Torah in itself cannot bring me salvation, then why is that wrong? I know that only by my faith in the Living Torah can I find Salvation. Because Torah leads me to the author, to Yeshua.

Romans 4:16: “For this reason it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants, not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham (for he is the father of all of us).”

To those who say that we who follow the Torah are under the “Law,” I ask this question: Which of His “Laws” bother you?


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Etz Chayim Tree of Life Messianic Congregation

and
Tree of Life Messianic Ministries
P.O. Box 467
Organ, NM 88052
www.etz-chayim.org



575-382-0193

FAX: 866-800-2390
treelife@etz-chayim.org
************************************************** **********************

Addition:
In 1999 I wrote Rabbi Chaim Goldberger a letter starting with the beginning statement of Hillel -
because they attacked me verbally after Shabbat Morning Services with these words: "You are not welcome, we don't want you here. We know what you are up to. If you come back, nobody will speak with you!" I was hurt by their remarks, but the LORD's heart was broken and HE sent me back the following week with these words: "Are you going to let one person stop you? Go back!" Which I did - for another 6 months... More later...

My question to you Richard,
How many of your "members" are "Messianics"? Any at all?

On a joyful and exciting note :

My Reading at OLL - RCC - in Mound on Christmas Eve was:

SHOUT FOR JOY, O DAUGHTER ZION!
SING JOYFULLY, O ISRAEL!
BE GLAD AND EXULT WITH ALL YOUR HEART
O DAUGHTER JERUSALEM!
THE LORD HAS REMOVED THE JUDGMENT AGAINST YOU
HE HAS TURNED AWAY YOUR ENEMIES;
THE KING OF ISRAEL, THE LORD IS IN YOUR MIDST,
YOU HAVE NO FURTHER MISFORTUNE TO FEAR.
ON THAT DAY, IT SHALL BE SAID TO JERUSALEM;
FEAR NOT, O ZION, BE NOT DISCOURAGED
THE LORD YOUR GOD IS IN YOUR MIDST, A MIGHTY SAVIOR;
HE WILL REJOICE OVER YOU WITH GLADNESS
AND RENEW YOU IN HIS LOVE,
HE WILL SING JOYFULLY BECAUSE OF YOU,
AS ONE SINGS AT FESTIVALS.

What a powerful reading, the words are still hanging in the air, all around the globe this truth is being proclaimed
May the LORD's words become reality, even now...

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land - not just a chunk of dirt, but the Land and origin of our LORD & SAVIOR, Jesus / Y'shua and Torah!
Monique

[kathryn]

Hello Monique....I asked you, a few weeks back, how you understood Chapter 7:12, in the letter to the Hebrews (not gentiles): "For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of the law also."
It would be extremely helpful, for those of us following this thread, how you interpret this verse. Thankyou, Kathryn

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks Richard for your response - some positive, much negative.

Hi there Monique,

Yes there was much negative, but that's because of the errors in the post. You don't blame the doctor for the disease, right? There is no nice way to refute the "other gospel" that Paul warned of in Galatians 1:8, is there? The mere fact that I identified the error sounds "negative" because that error is extremely negative.



Still much open for discussion.

Very true! I am thankful that you persevere with me in the review of these teachings. Since they are being taught to many people, they need to be examined.


How abot this one:

Richard writes:

The assertion that "the whole House of Israel" is meaningless. There is no "House of Israel" and even if there were, it wouldn't have anything to do with the Bible.

Then what did JESUS mean in Matthew 10:5-6:
Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, "DO NOT GO INTO PAGAN TERRITORY OR ENTER A SAMARITAN TOWN. GO RATHER TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.


The phrase "House of Israel" in that context means "the Jews living in the land of Israel at the time of Christ." It has nothing to do with the "two house" theory that says the Jews are the "House of Judah" and the Ten Northern Tribes are the "House of Israel."

This is one reason there is so much confusion on this issue. The Bible uses the term "House of Israel" to me either 1) the ten northern tribes or 2) all 12 tribes, or 3) the "first century Jews" regardless of their tribal affiliation. The fact that you thought that verse supported the "two house" theory shows how very little you have actually thought about these issues that move you so passionately. I hope you understand I am try to help by telling you the truth. The docrtines you have accepted are not supported by a careful reading of the Bible.


I don't have any time right now to disect your answers, but you might enjoy the following article which is good food for thought for this forum : Torah: Under Law or Under Grace...

Thanks - I'll take a look. And by the way, you don't have to "dissect" my answers. You could just toss out a quick comment of what you think the truth is, and then I could respond.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Torah: Under Law or Under Grace?
by Rav Mordecai Silver

The Talmud tells the story of a proselyte who came to the great sage, Hillel, in the First Century B.C.E. and asked to be taught the whole Torah quickly, in the time that he could remain standing on one foot. Instead of losing his temper at this impossibly presumptuous request, Hillel showed great patience and understanding. He answered by saying: "What is hateful to you, do not do to others. This is the whole Torah, the rest is its commentary. Go and study it" (Shabbat 31a).

Hillel’s statement, his way of expounding upon the Biblical commandment, “and you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus - Vayikra 19:18), may still stand as the capsule summary of Judaism. It is, however, still essential to “go and study the rest.”

Many believers, whether Jew or Christian are under the understanding that with the coming of Messiah Yeshua, we are no longer under the Torah or “law,” but under “grace.”

That is exactly correct. The Bible explicitly declares in many different ways that we are not under the BONDAGE or the CURSE of TORAH. God confirmed this by destroying the Temple and the Levitical priesthood which was an essential aspect of the Torah.


Mathew 5:17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill." Has Messiah Yeshua fulfilled all the law, or better yet, has He fulfilled the Torah?

ALL of it?



Absolutely everthing. The Law was ONLY a shadow of Christ. Christ was the total fulfillment of the Law. As it is written:
KJV Hebrews 10:1 For the TORAH having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Christ is the REALITY. The Law was only a shadow cast by His Reality.


Mathew 5:18: “For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the Torah until all is
accomplished.”

Has it all been accomplished? Has the Torah, the five Books of Moshe, been fulfilled in their entirety?

Think about that before you answer.

Colossians 2:14: “Erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the Tree.”

Many use this Scripture as showing that the “law” has been set aside. The “law” has been set aside, and the Torah of God has been returned to its rightful place. The demands of Pharisaical Judaism, where the righteousness of the “law” was paraded around on the outside of a person who on the inside was dead, has been replaced with the Torah of truth and love. God's Torah!

"God's Torah" is not the lovely little plaything modern Judaizers want it to be. It is a deadly serious thing - the LAW of God that demans our death for sin. In Christ we DIED TO THE TORAH so we could be married to another.

There is not one person on the planet able to keep Torah, and those who pretend to are self-deceived. Anyone who advocates that Christians should keep Torah are self-condemned as violators of God's Law and therefore without Christ.


The Grace of God is what saves, not the law. But without the law we would not know what sin is. Do we have the audacity to believe that we do not need the commandments of God anymore that with the coming of Messiah we are perfected to the point that we no longer need His commandments to guide our lives?

This is where the Messianic theology always breaks down. They hold to the absurd notion that the Torah was given as a perpetual guide to Christian living! They don't understand what happened when Christ died. They think that we need to obey the law of circumcision and diet and Sabbath and all that or we won't be following God's commandments. Such teachings are absurd, and abysmally ignorant of the plain teaching of the Holy Bible.


Sha'ul made the statement best. We are slaves to the law of God and to the law of sin. But we have been freed by the grace of God. The law shows us the way, the grace of God saves.

This is typical of the "Messianic" dismissal of God's Word in which the Apostle Paul always refers to himself as PAUL, never "Sha'ul." Every time they refuse to address the Apostle Paul by his biblical name, they spit on God's Holy Word, and teach others to do likewise. They refuse to SUBMIT themselves to the plain teachings of the Bible.


Now why don't we take a look at the issue of grace, and see if this is really a NT covenant.

Genesis 6:8: “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”

Exodus 33:12: “Moses said to the Lord, ‘See, you have said to me, “Bring up this people”; but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.”’”

Exodus 33:17: “The Lord said to Moses, ‘I will do the very thing that you have asked; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.’”

Ezra 9:8: “But now for a brief moment favor has been shown by the Lord our God, who has left us a remnant, and given us a stake in his holy place, in order that he may brighten our eyes and grant us a little sustenance in our slavery.”

Psalm 84:11: “For the Lord God is a sun and shield; he bestows favor and honor. No good thing does the Lord withhold from those who walk uprightly.”

Are you getting the picture? Grace is not a NT Dispensation. Even under the Bringer of the “Law,” Moshe, there was grace first. Without grace Moses and the children of Israel would have been like the rest of the “goyim” (nations) of the earth. Following the “Law” did not bring the children of Israel God’s love nor merit His grace. God gave these things freely to those who were called His people.

Jeremiah 31:2: “Thus says the Lord: The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest.”

Zechariah 12:10: “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

These are ALL OT Scriptures So, what do we see here? First off, Israel HAS NOT been replaced by the church. Second, love is not a NT invention. Third, grace began way back in Genesis in the OT. Love and Grace are not NT inspired. We have always needed the love and grace of God. Without it we are nothing. But we also needed to know God’s commandments. Without His Mitzvot (commandments), how would we ever hope to know what it was that God wanted us to do? We need to know how we are to live. We cannot just go around blindly without direction. The Torah is His directions to us. The Torah is His love and grace to us. He loved us enough to show us His way.



That is a perfect expression of the CURSE of the Torah:
Galatians 3:10-13 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

That whole argument is ludicrous. Everyone knows that God has shown grace to His people at all times in the history of the world. But that does not deny the plain teaching of the NT which CONTRASTS the Torah with Grace and Truth:
John 1:17 For the Torah was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. The Torah is not "grace." These Messianics are twisting Scripture.


God’s commandments, His teachings, His instructions that we find in the pages of Torah, are how we know what is right and wrong in the eyes of God. Love and grace do not show us what sin is in the eyes of the Father. Yeshua did not die because of love and grace. He died because of our sin!



Christ DIED to free us from the CURSE OF THE TORAH!
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree [crucified]: It is a LIE to say that the Torah teaches us what God wants us to do! God does NOT want us to go to Levitical priests for forgiveness! He does NOT want us to obey the circumcision commandment. He does NOT want us to be under the Torah at all.


John 1:14-16: “And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth…From his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Yeshua Ha’Mashiach.”

We learned how to distinguish between what God loved and did not love through His commandments.

But through Yeshua we learned what the true intent of the Torah was. That God loved us. Moshe brought the Torah and with it we learned what sin was. Sin brought Spiritual death. Yeshua was the heart of the Torah and with Him came life from the Spiritual death of sin. Yeshua was the Living Word of God and He was in the Words of the OT as well as in the NT.

We see the love and grace of God all over the pages of the OT. With Moses we finally see the commandments of God written down for a people. God was calling a people His own. He was showing His love and grace by giving a people His Torah.

Of course we see God's love and grace. But that does not mean that we go against the NT and back to Torah. This teaching is a CURSED TEACHING. It is the "other gospel" that God warned us about in Galatians 1:8-9.


Acts 13:43: “When the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.”

Grace in the synagogue. Grace among the Jews.

Duh. Jesus was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. John was a Jew. But none of them taught that Christians (Jew or Gentile) need to obey Torah to be right with God. On the contrary, we were warned against it by the first Jewish Christians.


We need guidelines to live by.

Yes, you need dead external carnal commandments if you have not come to Jesus Christ and received His Spirit and had His Law written on your hearts. These messianic teachings are entirely of the flesh and contrary to the New Testament.


If I as a Jew wish to follow the commandments handed down to Israel from generation to generation, why do people get so worked up over it?

Nobody gets worked up over what you do in private. But you are teaching others that they are still under the Law and you preaching a false Gospel that the Bible declares to be ACCURSED and that's enough to get any real Christian "worked up" - even the Apostle Paul whom you false call "Shaul."


I know that my faith is in Yeshua. I have received Salvation in Him. He is Salvation. His name Yeshua means Salvation, the Salvation of God. The same holds true for those from Ephraim who also choose to follow the Torah as given to Israel. Torah is for ALL of Israel --- Judah and Ephraim!

See Monique - "all of Israel" can mean all 12 tribes, or just 10 dependin on context.


Salvation is a free gift from God to all of His people. Faith in God by accepting Yeshua as Messiah, as the debt for our sins, is the only way to receive the promise of eternal life. Sin, though, is defined by the Torah the Word of God given to us as a nation by Moses and confirmed by Yeshua the Son of God and the Living Torah.

But as part of my walk with Messiah I choose to follow His Torah. In doing this I choose to imitate Yeshua, because He is the living Word of God. He is the Living Torah.

And there is the LIE. Jesus died to free you from the Torah. He does not want you to try to follow it. You trample the blood of His covenant underfoot when you pretend to obey Torah.


He lived His life following Torah. He could not do otherwise, because He is the Torah.



He is not the carnal Torah. He does not want you following the carnal commandments. He obeyed Torah because he was born under the Torah to FREE you from it! As it is written:
Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.Anyone who attempts to follow Torah is like a prisoner sitting in a cage with an open door. There is NO POINT to trying to obey what God has abolished.


How could He disobey Himself?

So you don't even realize that Christ died TO the Torah? It is an amazing deception that has taken over the Messianic movement.


In following Torah He obeyed His Father. If I choose to follow Torah as an expression of my faith knowing full well that Torah in itself cannot bring me salvation, then why is that wrong?

Because you are DISOBEYING GOD when you attempt to "obey Torah" after He died to free you from it. You are insulting the Spirit of Grace and the Blood of the New Covenant.


To those who say that we who follow the Torah are under the “Law,” I ask this question: Which of His “Laws” bother you?

Oh .... I don't know ... let me see ....

Trying to find a Levitical Priest and a Temple has been a real hassle ...

Dietary laws, clothing laws, stoning my uppity kid laws, etc, etc, etc, x 613 ....

Christian "Torah Keeping" is a BIG FAT LIE. No one can do it, and no one is supposed to try. That's why God destroyed the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. That's why Christ died to give us a NEW COVENANT. That's why Paul declares the Judaizers to be ANATHEMA.



I 1999 I wrote Rabbi Chaim Goldberger a letter starting with the beginning statement of Hillel -
because they attacked me verbally after Shabbat Morning Services with these words: "You are not welcome, we don't want you here. We know what you are up to. If you come back, nobody will speak with you!" I was hurt by their remarks, but the LORD's heart was broken and HE sent me back the following week with these words: "Are you going to let one person stop you? Go back!" Which I did - for another 6 months... More later...

My question to you Richard,
How many of your "members" are "Messianics"? Any at all?

I don't know. But not all Messianics teach false doctrines, and many would agree with every word I just wrote, though they may try a "kinder gentler" approach. But I don't think that is a good idea because people have become hard of hearing. That's why John Hagee was able to publish a heretical book. Christians were asleep on their watch.


On a jouful and exciting note :

My Reading at OLL - RCC - in Mound on Christmas Eve was:

SHOUT FOR JOY, OI DAUGHTER ZION!
SING JOYFULLY, O ISRAEL!
BE GLAD AND EXULT WITH ALL YOUR HEART
O DAUGHTER JERUSALEM!
THE LORD HAS REMOVED THE JUDGMENT AGAINST YOU
HE HAS TURNED AWAY YOUR ENEMIES;
THE KING OF ISRAEL, THE LORD IS IN YOUR MIDST,
YOU HAVE NO FURTHER MISFORTUNE TO FEAR.
ON THAT DAY, IT SHALL BE SAID TO JERUSALEM;
FEAR NOT, O ZION, BE NOT DISCOURAGED
THE LORD YOUR GOD IS IN YOUR MIDST, A MIGHTY SAVIOR;
HE WILL REJOICE OVER YOU WITH GLADNESS
AND RENEW YOU IN HIS LOVE,
HE WILL SING JOYFULLY BECAUSE OF YOU,
AS ONE SINGS AT FESTIVALS.

What a powerful reading, the words are still hanging in the air, all around the globe this truth is being proclaimed
May the LORD's words become reality, even now...

Now? That happened 2000 years ago! Praise God, it was then that Zion rejoiced to see her King arrive on a donkey, and it was then that the Gospel sprang forth and forgiveness was given. Read those words again:

THE LORD HAS REMOVED THE JUDGMENT AGAINST YOU
HE HAS TURNED AWAY YOUR ENEMIES;
THE KING OF ISRAEL, THE LORD IS IN YOUR MIDST,

Are you saying those words were not fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Gospel?

God bless you Monique.

And thanks for that article. Its very good to see how Messianics are "using" Scripture to support their doctrines.

Richard

[White]

Richard says:

Christian "Torah Keeping" is a BIG FAT LIE. No one can do it, and no one is supposed to try. That's why God destroyed the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. That's why Christ died to give us a NEW COVENANT. That's why Paul declares the Judaizers to be ANATHEMA.

Uhhhh, such strong words, Richard... Would you then say Richard, that the NEW replaces the OLD completely?

How do you understand these passages?

New Testament
Romans 2:13
For it's not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified.

Romans 2:26
Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised: Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.

Romans 3:28-31
For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Does God belong to Jews alone? Does He not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! ON THE CONTRARY, WE ARE SUPPORTING THE LAW.

Romans 7:12
So then the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Read it again : The LAW IS HOLY...

Romans 7:14
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavry to sin.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Hi neighbor Richard...

Galatians 5:18
But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
v, 22 The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity. faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no LAW. 24-25: Now those who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.

Point I am making:
If we are guided by the Spirit - or Holy SPirit - should we then keep the 10 Commandments or not? I see much permissiveness that happens because the WORD of GOD is not preached. Let's take adultery - Is that a valid law Richard? Does it matter, since Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, future?

Of course it matters! Our forefathers knew that Society needed the 10 Commandments and thank God, they are sprinkled all over the American Landscape, from Washington DC to every State, town and village. Proclaiming the Truth of the WORD OF GOD starting with LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD with all your heart, mind, soul (and strength).... and follow HIS Commandments, for our own wellbeing.

And if the HOLY SPIRIT tugs on our heartstrings and opens our eyes to our roots in order to become a better witness, is that wrong? Not according to these bible verses. Again: If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. And let us not judge. God is able to bring together HIS plan of SALVATION for all people if we are willing and obedient to HIS WORD and the prompting of the HOLY SPIRIT. Sometimes that requires that we leave our comfort zone, adopt customs contrary to our upbringing, but having our life enriched and our eyes opened to the workings of the Holy SPirit. Life then becomes an adventure, to live our day and every hour/ minute/ second of the day for our LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS plan of salvation for all people, the Jew first, then the Gentile... Romans 1:16 - Honor, Glory, Peace to the Jew First, then the Gentile- Romans 2:10.

The one thing we know for certain : that JESUS CHRIST is Messiah and that HE came to save the Jewish People first and foremost, according to the following passage :

Matthew 15:24 : Jesus said in reply, "I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL." (The 12 Tribes Richard?) But the (Canaanite) woman came and did him homage, saying "LORD, HELP ME!" (Also my shortest prayer). He said in reply : "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs." She said: "Please, LORD, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters." Then Jesus said to her in reply, "O WOMAN, GREAT IS YOUR FAITH! LET IT BE DONE FOR YOU AS YOU WISH." And her daughter was healed from that hour.

After all : Romans 11:32 : For GOD has shut up all ( A L L ) in disobedience so that HE might show Mercy to all ( A L L ), that includes you and me!

SHalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND, with JESUS / Y'SHUA in the heart of all people - Jews, Christians, Muslims....
Shalom to you Richard & Biblewheel Gang
Monique



Addition from the Hanukkah post:

21:20
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
Acts 25:8
Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."Acts 28:17
[ Paul Preaches at Rome Under Guard ] Three days later he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: "My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.
Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Romans 15:27
They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Galatians 2:7
On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.



And here is the most important passage concerning this post on Torah observance etc.

I Corinthian 9:10-21
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law
Amen!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hallo there my friend! :yo:


Richard says:

Christian "Torah Keeping" is a BIG FAT LIE. No one can do it, and no one is supposed to try. That's why God destroyed the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. That's why Christ died to give us a NEW COVENANT. That's why Paul declares the Judaizers to be ANATHEMA.

Uhhhh, such strong words, Richard... Would you then say Richard, that the NEW replaces the OLD completely?

Yes, those are strong words. But you notice the last word there ANATHEMA? Well, I didn't invent that word, and neither did I invent the context in which Paul used it in Scripture. It is the description that the Bible uses for Judaizers - meaning those who teach people that they should put themselves under bondage to Torah.


As for the New Covenant completely replacing the Old. My answer is Yes! Absolutely. Totally. Completely. Without a doubt. Or what? Are you still under the Law? The New Covenant is a "better covenant" that God said is "not according to the covenant" he made at Sinai. (Hebrews 8). It is an entirely different covenant. That's why God calls it the the New Covenant. Here is how the Complete Jewish Bible translates it:
CJB Hebrews 8:13 By using the term, "new," he has made the first covenant "old"; and something being made old, something in the process of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether.
The Old Covenant was on its way to "vanishing altogether" at the time Hebrews was written. That Scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD when God destroyed the Temple and permanently ended the Levitical sacrificial system once and for all. That's because JESUS CHRIST was the final sacrifice! Any futher "observation of Torah" tramples the blood of Christ underfoot.


How do you understand these passages?


I'll explain them on the condition that you explain Galatians 4:21-31:
Galatians 4:21-31 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law [is that the way someone would talk if he wanted you to "obey Torah"?], do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to BONDAGE, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in BONDAGE with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman [carnal Torah] and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Paul explains the difference between the two covenants as the difference between BONDAGE versus FREEDOM. And you still don't get it? What will it take for you to read and accept the plain text of Holy Scripture?


New Testament
Romans 2:13
For it's not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified.

I understand that as meaning the "Law" in the sense of God's Law of the Spirit that is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit. It has absoltutely nothing to do with works of the lasw like obeying dietary laws, perfroming ritual sacrifices, being physically circumcised or following an external carnal sabbath ritual.


Romans 2:26
Again, if an uncircumcised man keeps the precepts of the law, will he not be considered circumcised: Indeed, those who are physically uncircumcised but carry out the law will pass judgment on you, with your written law and circumcision, who break the law.

Exactly. And have you kept the precepts of the Law? NO! You break the Sabbath law to drive to Synagogue to "keep Sabbath" according to your own self-made rules. You mock God and His Law! If you were really under the Law you would be guilty of a hundred capital crimes. And that is the proof that it's all a game to you. You don't realize the deadly nature of the Torah. It is deadly because of sin, and that is why Christ had to die. And so you nullify the meaning of the Torah by saying its still "valid" when in fact it has no real power over your life at all.


Romans 3:28-31
For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Does God belong to Jews alone? Does He not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! ON THE CONTRARY, WE ARE SUPPORTING THE LAW.

Yeah, and what does that mean? Are you supporting the "validity" of the Levitical priesthood by faith in Christ? Are you supporting the fact that no one can join the congregation of the Lord except they be circumcised? Merely quoting passages out of context and highlighting them is not exegesis of the Bible. You must engage the MEANING of hte text, and how it relates to what Christ did on the Cross. You never talk about how "keeping Torah" relates to the Gospel. Why not? I would guess because it is contrary to the Gospel.


Romans 7:12
So then the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Read it again : The LAW IS HOLY...


DUH! That's why its DEADLY! The LAW IS HOLY but we are sinful! Didn't you read the beginning of chapter 7?
Romans 7:1-4 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the Torah has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the TORAH of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is FREE from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 ¶ Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

We are dead to the Torah, dead to the Torah, dead to the Torah! Why do you ignore the PLAIN TEXT of the Holy Bible? We are FREE FROM THE TORAH! We are dead to the Torah through the death of Christ. We are DEAD TO TORAH through the death of Christ. This is the Gospel. You are preaching a different gospel that denies everything about that Christ did on the Cross.


Galatians 5:18
But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
v, 22 The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity. faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no LAW. 24-25: Now those who belong to Christ have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit.

Point I am making:
If we are guided by the Spirit - or Holy SPirit - should we then keep the 10 Commandments or not? I see much permissiveness that happens because the WORD of GOD is not preached. Let's take adultery - Is that a valid law Richard? Does it matter, since Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, future?

You are dealing here with here with the classic confusion folks have concerning Christian freedom. The answer is not a return to the works of the Old Covanant law! Paul answered you question in Romans 6, when he again taught how everything is based on the New Covenant Gospel and the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the dead works of "keeping Torah:"
Romans 6:1-14 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 ¶ For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 ¶ Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Torah but under grace.

You see Monique - true Biblical theology is based entirely on the Gospel, an the death and resurrection of Christ. All people who preach that we should keep Torah deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ are their theology is a mish mash hodge podge bucket of lies! None of it aligns with the plain teachings of Holy Scripture! Those teachings are ANATHEMA.


Of course it matters! Our forefathers knew that Society needed the 10 Commandments and thank God, they are sprinkled all over the American Landscape, from Washington DC to every State, town and village.

Yes, Monique, everyone knows that the Law is essential for running a society. That's not what we are talking about! We are talking about the Biblical Doctrine of the Gospel, and the lie of "Torah keeping."


Proclaiming the Truth of the WORD OF GOD starting with LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD with all your heart, mind, soul (and strength).... and follow HIS Commandments, for our own wellbeing.

That doesn't mean we are supposed to "keep Torah" dietary laws, carnal circumcision, Levitical sacrifices, and all that! The Bible says NO! And God proved it by destroying the Temple and the Levitical priesthood, and giving us the NEW COVENANT that gives life, unlike the Old Covenant that engendered DEATH.


And if the HOLY SPIRIT tugs on our heartstrings and opens our eyes to our roots in order to become a better witness, is that wrong?

Of course not. But how is violating the Sabbath a "better witness?" And how is denying the Gospel that freed us from the Torah a "witness" to anyone about the Truth of the Gospel?


Not according to these bible verses. Again: If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. And let us not judge.

Let us not judge? OK - great! Then are you going to stop judging me as wrong when I raise my voice to declare that the doctrine of Christian "Torah Keeping" is ANATHEMA.


The one thing we know for certain : that JESUS CHRIST is Messiah and that HE came to save the Jewish People first and foremost, according to the following passage :

No, that's not exactly correct. He came to save them first, yes, but not "foremost." They were first historically because the Gospel went to them first. But what did Paul say when they proved themselves unworthy of eternal life? Read it for yourself:
Acts 13:46-51 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 ¶ Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium.

You exalt the Jews over other people, contrary to Scritpure. They are neither better nor worse than the Gentiles. You have again misinterpreted the plain text of the Holy Bible.



SHalom to Jerusalem and the HOLY LAND, with JESUS / Y'SHUA in the heart of all people - Jews, Christians, Muslims....
Shalom to you Richard & Biblewheel Gang
Monique
And Peace in Christ the Prince of Peace be unto you in all you do my friend.

God bless,

Richard

[Trumpet]

Hi Monique,

I hope you will take a moment to read my post. It's a gift for you.

When the law came, we were convicted of sin. In God's court of His law, we are convicted by His law. You obviously know of Judaism, so I presume you know the laws surrounding redemption. Anyone owing a debt that he cannot pay can be redeemed by a relative. Being sinners, and unable to live up to the law means that we have a debt that we cannot pay. But since Jesus lived perfectly under the law, we can accept that He is our kinsman-redeemer, and He pays the price for us. The only catch is, that now we are Jesus' bondservant. We have had our debt to the law paid by Jesus. This sets us free from the law. We are no longer under it. But we ARE duty-bound to do the will of the one that redeemed us, and the one thing that Jesus wants of us is to obey Him, and obedience to Him comes by listening to the Holy Spirit, and there is no sin when we follow Him, because He never leads us to sin. You may say, "well that's the same thing as following the law!", but it's not. You CAN'T follow the law, because it demands perfection, it has NO MERCY, but you CAN follow Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Here's the difference. - Jesus is now our master. He bought us. When you violate the law, there is no mercy; you are proclaimed guilty. But by obeying Jesus and the Holy Spirit, when you sin you can be forgiven, because Jesus HAS mercy. The law has NO mercy. The law has NO forgiveness. The only provision the law has is to pay the penalty. The law didn't forgive Jesus. Jesus paid the debt. So who do you really want to serve?

God Bless
Don

[White]

Hi Don,

Thanks for your words - I agree 100% - Salvation comes through JESUS alone. I have been serving HIM and am still serving HIM 100% since 4/8/1989 - my second birth - Hallelujah! But becaue I love HIM will all my heart, mind, body and soul , I have to be obedient to the prompting of the HOLY SPIRIT. Thank you ! Yes, I am a SLAVE TO CHRIST. HE is my husband, the LOVE of my life, the very breath I breath, my friend, my counselor, my provider, my healer, my companion and my advisor. SHalom to you my friend. May the LORD our GOD bless both of us with HIS abundant grace.
Monique

[White]

Richard writes:

You exalt the Jews over other people, contrary to Scritpure. They are neither better nor worse than the Gentiles. You have again misinterpreted the plain text of the Holy Bible.

Hi Richard,

I don't agree with you on this because the Bible explicitly tells us to PRAY FOR PEACE TO JERUSALEM, which happens to be in Israel, on the little chunk of dirt as you call it, and those who are praying for Peace to Jerusalem shall...... but read for yourself:

Psalm 122
A song of ascents. Of David.
1 I rejoiced with those who said to me,
"Let us go to the house of the LORD."
2 Our feet are standing
in your gates, O Jerusalem.

3 Jerusalem is built like a city
that is closely compacted together.

4 That is where the tribes go up,
the tribes of the LORD,
to praise the name of the LORD
according to the statute given to Israel.

5 There the thrones for judgment stand,
the thrones of the house of David.

6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:
"May those who love you be prosperous.

7 May there be peace within your walls
and security within your citadels."

8 For the sake of my brothers and friends,
I will say, "Peace be within you."

9 For the sake of the house of the LORD our God,
I will seek your prosperity.

My prayer partner and myself read this entire psalm DAILY and our Congregation - that is 20-40 members of Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church - have been praying for Peace to Jerusalem since 2000 - daily - and individually I have been praying for Rabbi Chaim Goldberger from Kenesseth Israel Congregation, St. Louis Park, MN. I cannot believe that the Holy Spirit would lead me astray, when HE calls me to witness to the JEWISH PEOPLE. Unless I understand their rules/regulations, I will not be heard. My witness is then - again - as I stated numerous times - to the JEWISH PEOPLE - the brethren of JESUS / Y'SHUA.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. Amen & Amen

Can we just let it rest at that? Paul originally addressed the Jews, but then he got frustrated and went to the Gentiles. (Acts 18:6) Peter was sent to the Jews. You are witnessing to the Gentiles. I am witnessing to the Jews. We are all led by the HOLY SPIRIT. No need to get hostile. The Gospel message is simple to start out:

Acts 16:31:
Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved"

I believe in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. He is the LOVE OF MY LIFE and my HUSBAND, and MY PROTECTOR, and MY PROVIDER, and MY SHIELD....
I am saved by the BLOOD OF THE SINLESS LAMB OF GOD - JESUS CHRIST - my LORD and SAVIOR. You are saved by the BLOOD OF THE SINLESS LAMB OF GOD. Everybody who accepts JESUS / Y'SHUA as LORD and SAVIOR is saved by the BLOOD shed on the Cross. Nothing else. But JESUS / Y'SHUA is a Jewish man, He died as a Jewish Man - I believe the Talmud says : "Once a Jew, always a Jew". And He will return the same.

The HOLY SPIRIT will guide all who are willing to listen and follow HIS lead.
May we be obedient and listen to His voice and follow Him wherever HE leads us, to continue to bring JESUS CHRIST to all the Nations, from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the Earth. And "They shall call upon my name and I will hear them. I will say, "They are my people" and they shall says, "The LORD in my God." (Zech. 13:9) - see below:

Isaiah 63:8
He said, "Surely they are my people, sons who will not be false to me"; and so he became their Savior.

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

We are all working on the same plan - to proclaim JESUS CHRIST to the Nations. May the LORD OUR GOD have mercy on all of us and may we be willing to follow HIM wherever the Holy SPirit leads us. His ways are higher than our ways as the Heavens are above the Earth...

Shalom to Jerusalem. the Holy Land, and all people
Monique


Have a Happy and Very Prosperous New Year

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard writes:

You exalt the Jews over other people, contrary to Scritpure. They are neither better nor worse than the Gentiles. You have again misinterpreted the plain text of the Holy Bible.

Hi Richard,

I don't agree with you on this because the Bible explicitly tells us to PRAY FOR PEACE TO JERUSALEM, which happens to be in Israel, on the little chunk of dirt as you call it, and those who are praying for Peace to Jerusalem shall...... but read for yourself:

That's the Old Testament talking about Jerusalem before God destroyed it. It has absolutely nothing to do with the secular city called "Jerusalem" that currently exists in the middle east. God called that place "Sodom and Egypt" before He blasted it out of existence nearly two thousand years ago.

So are you planning on answering my questions or not? I asked you to explain Galatians 4 that CLEARLY declares the TORAH=BONDAGE and the GOSPEL = FREEDOM. Why do you ignore the Bible? I have been asking for simple answers to these plain Scriptures for over six months now, but still, all you do is quote OT passages out of context and without any explanation of how they might actually support your position.


I cannot believe that the Holy Spirit would lead me astray, when HE calls me to witness to the JEWISH PEOPLE. Unless I understand their rules/regulations, I will not be heard. My witness is then - again - as I stated numerous times - to the JEWISH PEOPLE - the brethren of JESUS / Y'SHUA.

My friend, you appear to be completely confused about what I am saying. I have repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly told you told you that its perfectly ok perfectly ok for you to study their customs to be a better witness! I have repeatedly said that! Do you hear me? I have repeatedly said that. Do you hear me?

I have never said there was anything wrong with learning their customs to be a better witness. But that is NOT what you have been saying! You have been teaching that CHRISTIANS are supposed to be UNDER THE BODNAGE OF TORAH! And that is pure heresy, plain and simple. The Bible declares that teaching to be accursed, ANATHEMA.

Why do you refuse to understand plain English? I never said a word against you celebrating sabbath if it makes you feel good, or whatever else you want to do with the "Torah." All I have said is that you can not teach that Christians should go back to "keeping Torah." Why do you not understand such simple words?


- to the JEWISH PEOPLE - the brethren of JESUS / Y'SHUA.


The "Jews" are just the carnal brethren of Jesus. All believers are his true brethren, that's what the Bible says, indeed, that's what Jesus said when his own flesh and blood mother and brothers wanted to see him!
Mark 3:31-35 There came then his [carnal] brethren and his [carnal] mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my [true] mother, or my [true] brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
I've already explained this to you, and you never bothered to even acknowledge my words, let alone refuted this point. Why do you persist in such error?


1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. Amen & Amen

So what? That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the CURSED LIE of "Christian Torah Keeping."


Can we just let it rest at that?

Why don't you just settle the whole issue and answer the simple questions. Paul explicitly said that your doctrine of "Christian Torah Keeping" is a cursed doctrine! We can't just "let it rest at that." The solution is very simple. All you need to do is read and obey the New Testament! Tell me what you thing Paul is saying in Galatians 4 concerning Hagar and Sarah and the two covenants.


Paul originally addressed the Jews, but then he got frustrated and went to the Gentiles. (Acts 18:6) Peter was sent to the Jews. You are witnessing to the Gentiles. I am witnessing to the Jews. We are all led by the HOLY SPIRIT.
I am not "witnessing to the Gentiles." The witness of the Bible Wheel is most powerful to the Jews who know the meaning of the Hebrew letters. That's the second time you have told me who I am witnessing to. Who made you judge over my ministry?


I believe in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. He is the LOVE OF MY LIFE and my HUSBAND, and MY PROTECTOR, and MY PROVIDER, and MY SHIELD....
I am saved by the BLOOD OF THE SINLESS LAMB OF GOD - JESUS CHRIST - my LORD and SAVIOR. You are saved by the BLOOD OF THE SINLESS LAMB OF GOD. Everybody who accepts JESUS / Y'SHUA as LORD and SAVIOR is saved by the BLOOD shed on the Cross. Nothing else.

Why do you keep repeating you personal faith? You are not on trial here. I am not judging the quality of your faith. We are discussing DOCTRINE, not your personal walk. You have been confused about this from the beginning. I'm know you love Jesus! That has never been an issue, and I have never questioned it. I am trying to get you to see the error of your doctrine of Christian Torah Keeping, but you refuse to discuss it.


But JESUS / Y'SHUA is a Jewish man, He died as a Jewish Man - I believe the Talmud says : "Once a Jew, always a Jew". And He will return the same.

Christ can't be a Jew because in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Or what, you think He Himself is an exception to that rule, so that there is not Jew or Gentile in Christ, except Christ Himself? Yeah ... sure, whatever.


The HOLY SPIRIT will guide all who are willing to listen and follow HIS lead.

In post 64 of the Hanukkah thread you said the "Holy Spirit" told you to "to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul." I asked if you really meant that, and as usual, you just ignored my question.

So is it true Monique? Do you believe that the "spirit" that is in you has taught you to "go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul?"

Do you deny some of the teachings of the New Testament?

Richard

[White]

Hi Richard,

Now I understand the confusion :

Richard writes: Originally Posted by White
I think it will help you understand me better and all those who are in the same situation, where the HOLY SPIRIT tugs at your heart and tells you to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul who was sent to witness to the Gentiles. Thus I say: I'm Paul in reverse- - my witness is to the Jewish People and Religious Leaders and unless I understand their customs my witness is empty and weightless.

Richard says:
Did you really intend that red sentence to come out that way? I mean, you don't really believe that God has directed you to go against the teachings of the New Testament do you?

My Reply :
Sorry - poor choice if words - it was not meant that way at all.
Of course not "against the teaching of the New Testament" - that is obvious, is it not? What I meant is as I state : "I'm Paul in reverse" sent to the Jews rather than the Gentiles. I am not questioning the teaching of the New Testament. Why would you believe that? I have NEVER said one has to follow TORAH to be saved. What I have always stated is that "if one chooses to follow TORAH... " one is free to do that to become a better witness to the Jewish People.


Richard says:
But that is NOT what you have been saying! You have been teaching that CHRISTIANS are supposed to be UNDER THE BODNAGE OF TORAH! And that is pure heresy, plain and simple. The Bible declares that teaching to be accursed, ANATHEMA.

Richard:
Please quote verbatim my words that "Christians are supposed to be UNDER THE BONDAGE OF TORAH!" I do not recall ever writing anything so outrageous! On the contrary, I always state that we are SAVED BY Faith and washed by the blood of the sinless Lamb of GOD, JESUS CHRIST. Please quote thread and post #. Thank you.

Did you take that "Christians are supposed to be UNDER THE BONDAGE OF TORAH" from one of the Messianic Threads I posted? I am NOT responsible for other people's opinion. Please clarify this immediately. I would never ever support such a statement. And I would totally agree with you that you should be up in arms if I made such an outrageous statement. And I would profusely apologize if I personally said "Christians are supposed tp be UNDER THE BONDAGE OF TORAH". But I can't believe that these are words I have written, ever!

Let's clear this up first, then we go on to the other points of disagreement.

Shalom,
Monique

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Now I understand the confusion :

Richard writes: Originally Posted by White
I think it will help you understand me better and all those who are in the same situation, where the HOLY SPIRIT tugs at your heart and tells you to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul who was sent to witness to the Gentiles. Thus I say: I'm Paul in reverse- - my witness is to the Jewish People and Religious Leaders and unless I understand their customs my witness is empty and weightless.

Richard says:
Did you really intend that red sentence to come out that way? I mean, you don't really believe that God has directed you to go against the teachings of the New Testament do you?

My Reply :
Sorry - poor choice if words - it was not meant that way at all.
Of course not "against the teaching of the New Testament" - that is obvious, is it not? What I meant is as I state : "I'm Paul in reverse" sent to the Jews rather than the Gentiles. I am not questioning the teaching of the New Testament. Why would you believe that? I have NEVER said one has to follow TORAH to be saved. What I have always stated is that "if one chooses to follow TORAH... " one is free to do that to become a better witness to the Jewish People.

Hello my friend! :yo:

It looks like we might be making progress in communicating. :) That's great!

I'm glad that was just a "poor choice of words." Given our disagreement about the need for Christians to obey the Torah, I was not sure how to understand it.

And that is the central issue here. I had gotten the distinct impression that you believe the Torah is still "binding" in the sense that Christians should obey its laws and precepts. Is that correct? If not, then all our long conversations have been nothing but one ridiculous misunderstanding, and there is nothing we need to discuss on this matter (except to clarify our understanding, of course). If all you have meant through these many posts is that you personally like to practice Jewish customs as an evangelistic tool, then we have no disagreements at all, and never have had any disagreements.


But obviously, I had gotten a very different impression. I know that you've been very clear in stating that Christians don't need to follow Torah "to be saved" and if it had stopped there, we never would have had any disagreement. But in your attempt to justify keeping Sabbath, you asserted the following in post 10 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4425&postcount=10) of the Bible Sabbath thread:
And if we LOVE GOD will all our heart, all our mind, and all our soul, and all our strength, should we follow the 10 COMMANDMENTS ?
So it seems like you are saying Christians should, that is, are morally obligated, to follow the Ten Comandments. But the Ten Commandments are part of the Torah, and so if you say I must follow one part of the Torah, you are saying that I must follow the entire Torah. And it seems like you confirmed this interpretation when you said we should keep the Sabbath because it was part of the Old Testament Law that was "never abolished." Here is how you said it in post 52 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4619&postcount=52) in the Hanukkah thread (all the red highlights are from White's original post):



But the LORD worked with me on Matthew 5:17 - 20 in 1999, which are PLAIN spoken words which might illuminate the matter. Let's see what JESUS HIMSELF is saying ;
Matthew 5:17-20

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(Let's not stop here but continue reading, please....)
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

These are not my words, but the pure unchanged Words of our LORD & SAVIOR, as plain as can be. If Jesus meant that this is abolished once he goes to the cross, why is this not stated here. As a matter of fact, he made the "LAW" a lot harder - see following verses in Matthew 5:21ff.

OK - so how was I supposed to understand all that? You were not merely telling me it was your "personal preference" to obey the Sabbath Laws, but that they were never abolished and so, by implication, still in force over the life of the Christian.

Over the months we have tried discussing this, you never once suggested that we were free from Torah, or that the Torah is no binding on Christians. On the contrary, you have appealed to Matthew 5:17-19 more than once to prove that we are still in bondage to he Torah, though you never used those exact words, of course.

Another reason I felt that you were teaching that Christians should keep Torah is because you post articles from a website that teaches that same thing. And when I pointed out the errors of his arguemnt that Christians should keep Torah, you did not indicated that you agreed. ON the contrary, it seemed very clear to me that you disagreed with my constant declaration that we are free from Torah.

So that's why I got the impressions I got. I hope you understand. And it would be very very good if you could clearly state you position with regards to the Torah and Christian freedom.


Richard says:
But that is NOT what you have been saying! You have been teaching that CHRISTIANS are supposed to be UNDER THE BODNAGE OF TORAH! And that is pure heresy, plain and simple. The Bible declares that teaching to be accursed, ANATHEMA.

Richard:
Please quote verbatim my words that "Christians are supposed to be UNDER THE BONDAGE OF TORAH!" I do not recall ever writing anything so outrageous! On the contrary, I always state that we are SAVED BY Faith and washed by the blood of the sinless Lamb of GOD, JESUS CHRIST. Please quote thread and post #. Thank you.

We both know that you have not used those exact words my friend. That's why I never said you wrote them. Those words represent my understanding of the consequence of your teaching. They were never presented as "verbatim quotes" of anything you have written.

But now that you agree those words are outrageous, it means we are seeing eye-to-eye on this issue, and that's great! :tea:


Did you take that "Christians are supposed to be UNDER THE BONDAGE OF TORAH" from one of the Messianic Threads I posted? I am NOT responsible for other people's opinion. Please clarify this immediately.

Yes, in part, though again Rabbi Silver did not use those exact words either. But he did explicitly teach that Christians should keep Torah, as did the other Messianic folks you posted. I don't understand why you would be surprised if I thought you were posting things that you believed. You never said anything like "There's some good stuff in here, but I strongly disagree that Christians should try to keep Torah." So you are responsible for what you post, if you don't clarify what you beleive folks are pretty likely to think you agree with what you post from others. Especially if it lines up with things you have said about the Law not being "abolished."


I would never ever support such a statement. And I would totally agree with you that you should be up in arms if I made such an outrageous statement. And I would profusely apologize if I personally said "Christians are supposed tp be UNDER THE BONDAGE OF TORAH". But I can't believe that these are words I have written, ever!

Let's clear this up first, then we go on to the other points of disagreement.

Shalom,
Monique
Amen sister! Those words I highlighted blue really clear things up. I am so so so very happy that we are on talking terms about this very important issue.

And remember, I don't think I have all the answers about anything, and I KNOW that I frequently make mistakes, and speak to strongly in my passion, and completely misunderstand things sometimes. So let's work on this together as brother and sister in the Lord, and as complete equals.

Amen. :pray:

God bless you and keep you in the perfect peace of Jesus Christ our Lord!

Richard