3 days - 3 nights

[duxrow]

:cool:

716

[sylvius]

:cool:

716


Bad nonsense,
Jesus was crucified on the sixth day and laid in the grave at the end of that day.
The synoptici have this day to be the first day of Passover, while John has this day to be the 14th of Nissan, day of the preparation of Passover.

[duxrow]

:stop:
Jesus WAS the Passover - they checked him out for "4 days", beginning on the tenth, and it was on the 14th they killed "their Lamb".
It was "in the midst of the week" when He was cut-off, and don't you know there were other sabbaths besides the 6th Day! :p

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:stop:
Jesus WAS the Passover - they checked him out for "4 days", beginning on the tenth, and it was on the 14th they killed "their Lamb".
It was "in the midst of the week" when He was cut-off, and don't you know there were other sabbaths besides the 6th Day! :p

Where did you get the idea that there were no "sabbaths" except the 6th day? The Day of Atonement was called a "sabbath" and it always happened on the 10th day of the 7th month, which usually was not the 6th day of the week:

Leviticus 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: 30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

[sylvius]

:stop:
Jesus WAS the Passover - they checked him out for "4 days", beginning on the tenth, and it was on the 14th they killed "their Lamb".
It was "in the midst of the week" when He was cut-off, and don't you know there were other sabbaths besides the 6th Day! :p


Mark 14:12,
On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?”

Mark 14:17,
When it was evening, he came with the Twelve.

Mark 15:42

When it was already evening, since it was the day of preparation, the day before the sabbath,



Jesus was not the Passover lamb, except for in metaphorical sense.

[Timmy]

In John, it accounts for two Sabbaths on the week of Jesus' crucifixion, Yom Kippur and the weekly Sabbath.

Of the seven festivals of remembrance and promise, (as the one noted above,) each has one high holy day, known as Sabbath.

The whole year of Jubilee is also to be considered Sabbath...
...and every seventh year a Sabbath for the land to rest.

Shabat means seven, not six.


Timmy out.

[Timmy]

Hey Sylvius:yo:

6th day?

How do we even come up with 3 days from Friday to Saturday at 6 p.m....
--(6pm Saturday=Sunday by Israel's reckoning)--
...or even Sunday morning for that matter?

[sylvius]

Hey Sylvius:yo:

6th day?

How do we even come up with 3 days from Friday to Saturday at 6 p.m....
--(6pm Saturday=Sunday by Israel's reckoning)--
...or even Sunday morning for that matter?

It is about the third day of creation, the day of the double ki-tov.

[Ps 27:1]

Advocates for a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion think they have the solution to the 3 day/ 3 night conundrum (Problem is, the gospels clearly say the passover was to be killed before Jesus and the disciples ate the last supper). Most of the others explain away the riddle by saying it's just an idiom. The problem that 99.999.. % of the "scholars/ students" make is that they ASSUME that Jesus meant the tomb when he said the "heart of the earth". Jesus never said he would be dead and/or buried 3 days and 3 nights. In fact, if you look at the verses where he mentions the phrase and where he uses "the third day" phrase, it always starts with his betrayal and suffering. That is the start of the countdown.

Please read this http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives/The%20Sign%20of%20Jonah.htm Although, she did not originate this idea. I saw this first in Sir Robert Anderson's book "The Coming Prince". You can read it here (ch 9 is the pertinent part)http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/The.Coming.Prince.4.html#CHAPTER 9

More on this topic later.

Hi Richard, Timmy, others :yo:. I'll talk about my absense later, too, not that anyone cares.:lol: Good to be back, ....I think?:lol:

Steve

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Advocates for a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion think they have the solution to the 3 day/ 3 night conundrum (Problem is, the gospels clearly say the passover was to be killed before Jesus and the disciples ate the last supper). Most of the others explain away the riddle by saying it's just an idiom. The problem that 99.999.. % of the "scholars/ students" make is that they ASSUME that Jesus meant the tomb when he said the "heart of the earth". Jesus never said he would be dead and/or buried 3 days and 3 nights. In fact, if you look at the verses where he mentions the phrase and where he uses "the third day" phrase, it always starts with his betrayal and suffering. That is the start of the countdown.

Please read this http://www.blessedcause.org/BlessedCause%20Exclusives/The%20Sign%20of%20Jonah.htm Although, she did not originate this idea. I saw this first in Sir Robert Anderson's book "The Coming Prince". You can read it here (ch 9 is the pertinent part)http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/The.Coming.Prince.4.html#CHAPTER 9

More on this topic later.

Hi Richard, Timmy, others :yo:. I'll talk about my absense later, too, not that anyone cares.:lol: Good to be back, ....I think?:lol:

Steve
Hey there Steve, :icon_hello:

Welcome back! It's been a while.

I wouldn't trust any solution to the 3 days thing. There's too much confusion and contradiction. If there were any good solution, I would have expected it to have been found sometime in the last 2000 years. There are lots of aspects to the problem. Some verses say after three days while others say on the third day, and there are HUGE contradictions in things like the anointing at Bethany, the whole account of the Passion week, the birth narratives, and much more so I can't imagine why anyone would have any confidence that a solution based on parsing the meaning of "heart of the earth" could really solve anything with any confidence. But hey! I'm interested to see your take on it.

As for Anderson's work - I've got his book. I filled it with notes in the margin documenting his errors. My vote on that book is :thumbsdown: . But that's another discussion ....

In any case, Welcome back!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In John, it accounts for two Sabbaths on the week of Jesus' crucifixion, Yom Kippur and the weekly Sabbath.

Of the seven festivals of remembrance and promise, (as the one noted above,) each has one high holy day, known as Sabbath.

The whole year of Jubilee is also to be considered Sabbath...
...and every seventh year a Sabbath for the land to rest.

Shabat means seven, not six.


Timmy out.
I agree about the high sabbaths and all, but Yom Kippur did not happen near the spring feats of Passover when Christ was crucified - it's at the other end of the year, a fall feast.

[Timmy]

Hi Richard:rolleyes:Bob:pop2:Sylvius:confused:AND STEVE:eek:whoah, good to see you back...and thanks for the link, though there is yet the to-do of pouring through that book. I might have something other to add if that link is not saying what is ascertained here.


I agree about the high sabbaths and all, but Yom Kippur did not happen near the spring feats of Passover when Christ was crucified - it's at the other end of the year, a fall feast.

Nice catch bro.(often i mix those names for these two festivals.why?.and thanks for the info on full preterism. That dumb mistake i made is like the time here i mixed up good/tov for day/yom...(and you should watch my daughters roll their eyes during Seder when i slip up on that...
...which reminds me, Sylvius?
We are talking about designation of Yah toward pilgrimage of Beriyth in His High Holy day, the day thereafNow it has ever been taught us that the two ki tovs was G_d's way of uniting day two with day three. Then, during Chassidic QBL training, to simplify, 1+2+3=3x2x1...so is this what you are getting at with that being a mystical 6th day???


Later guys. Thanks for everything.


Shalom Shalom,

Barefeeteded Timmy (with one in the mouth)

[David M]

I think time period of the death of Jesus was covered in another thread. The scribes and Pharisees believed Jesus in as much as he said;"after 3 days". They were worried he would rise at all let alone 3 days and they could have left that out but have unwittingly given us proof of the time period involved.

The number "3" does have a spiritual meaning relating to "divine perfection". In keeping with Jesus rising from the dead to receive his "incorruptible body" and become "good" (perfected) as he was not "good" when he replied to the man who called him "Good Master", then it is fitting that Jesus was in the grave for a full three days (and nights).

The time period cannot be clearer given by Jesus when in his own words he says; (Matt 12:40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Now what is meant by; the "heart of the earth"? Should we read; "bowels of the earth", "rooms of darkness", "hell" or any such obscure phrase that all mean the same same thing as the "grave" and we all know what that means.


David

[duxrow]

:cheerleader5:"THREE TIMES THOU SHALT KEEP A FEAST UNTO ME IN THE YEAR"- Exodus 23:14, Deut 16:16, 2Chr8:13

The 3 Feasts went by different names:

1. (1st Month) Passover, Unleavened Bread

2. (No set date) Firstfruits, Weeks, Harvest, Pentecost
3. (7th month) Trumpets (Rosh Hashana), DOA (Yom Kippur), Tabernacles, Booths, Ingathering (Succoth). :thumb:

[sylvius]

The scribes and Pharisees believed Jesus in as much as he said;"after 3 days".

They were as stupid as modern day X-tinaity, believing in a literal three days (and three nights)

By the way, they were too late with their sealing, they sealed an already empty grave :winking0071:

[David M]

They were as stupid as modern day X-tinaity, believing in a literal three days (and three nights)

By the way, they were too late with their sealing, they sealed an already empty grave :winking0071:

Hello Sylvius

I am inclined to think that Jesus, the Son of God knew exactly what he was saying and would have understood from his study of the scriptures and the days in which he lived, would have known exactly how long God (his Heavenly Father) intended His Son to remain in the grave. The fact that Bible scholars have worked out the dates out and proved the word of Jesus was correct (which ought not to have been in question) shows us God knows what He is doing and as we often see, proves the skeptics are fools.


All the best

David

[sylvius]

Hello Sylvius

I am inclined to think that Jesus, the Son of God knew exactly what he was saying and would have understood from his study of the scriptures and the days in which he lived, would have known exactly how long God (his Heavenly Father) intended His Son to remain in the grave. The fact that Bible scholars have worked out the dates out and proved the word of Jesus was correct (which ought not to have been in question) shows us God knows what He is doing and as we often see, proves the skeptics are fools.


All the best

David


I do think it alludes to the third day of creation, whereon God saw that it was good that the earth didn't bring forth fruit trees that make fruit, but just trees that make fruit, the "tov" (=good) in Genesis 1:12 being the 153rd word from the beginning,
to which, I do think, alludes the story of the miraculous fishcatch of John 21.
It might be telling that John never otherwise mentions the third day as the day of resurrection.

In the first story of creation the first day is not mentioned "yom rishon", like should have been expected if you want the read it as creationists do, but "yom echad", day one, Absolute one.
The other day-indications are relative, second day, third day, fourth day, etc.

Furthermore it is written: "And God called the light day".

And of course: "And God saw the light that it was good ("tov")"

Intimating that there is no more than just "one day".

It just being obscured due to Adam's sin.

Or you also might say "thanks to Adam's sin"

Adam was created on the sixth day, and on that same day he sinned, i.e. on that day the light was obscured, "day one" broken into "first day, second day, third day, etc."

It is hard to explain, only that NT gave the keys, the numbers 666 (gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day) and 153.

[David M]

It is hard to explain, only that NT gave the keys, the numbers 666 (gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day) and 153.

Hello Sylvius
you give us things to think about. I am not sure I have all the answers. I tend to have more questions than answers. To my simple mind, I understand from the record that Jesus died around the 9th hour of the day. This would make it around 3 o'clock (our time) in the afternoon.

From the precise moment Jesus died and it can be said; "Jesus was in the grave". The tomb was merely a place to put the body.

Given that Jesus died around the 9th hour and for Jesus to be in the grave a full 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) would mean that Jesus would rise precisely 72 hours after he died and would rise around the 9th hour.

The alternative way of looking at three full days and nights is to state a 24-hour period as it is stated in Genesis and say; And the evening and the morning were the _______ day. So when does the evening start? Is this from the 9th hour or is it from sunset?

If Jesus had been laid in the tomb by say the twelfth hour ( 6pm our time) that would make it the start of the night. Jesus could have been in the tomb for more than 3 full nights and 3 full days and Jesus would have risen say at dawn at the beginning of the fourth day. The chief priests and Pharisees quoted Jesus as saying "after 3 days". By this we can understand that Jesus could have risen anytime after the ninth hour of the third day and could have risen at the dawn of the fourth day. Alternatively, this might mean Jesus could have risen around the 9th hour and remained in the tomb until the stone was rolled away at dawn of the fourth day. This would be in keeping with the fact that Mary was on her way to the tomb before dawn and just as dawn was breaking, there was an earthquake and the stone was rolled away from the tomb and Jesus came out.



David

[sylvius]

Hello Sylvius
you give us things to think about. I am not sure I have all the answers. I tend to have more questions than answers. To my simple mind, I understand from the record that Jesus died around the 9th hour of the day. This would make it around 3 o'clock (our time) in the afternoon.

From the precise moment Jesus died and it can be said; "Jesus was in the grave". The tomb was merely a place to put the body.

Given that Jesus died around the 9th hour and for Jesus to be in the grave a full 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) would mean that Jesus would rise precisely 72 hours after he died and would rise around the 9th hour.

The alternative way of looking at three full days and nights is to state a 24-hour period as it is stated in Genesis and say; And the evening and the morning were the _______ day. So when does the evening start? Is this from the 9th hour or is it from sunset?

If Jesus had been laid in the tomb by say the twelfth hour ( 6pm our time) that would make it the start of the night. Jesus could have been in the tomb for more than 3 full nights and 3 full days and Jesus would have risen say at dawn at the beginning of the fourth day. The chief priests and Pharisees quoted Jesus as saying "after 3 days". By this we can understand that Jesus could have risen anytime after the ninth hour of the third day and could have risen at the dawn of the fourth day. Alternatively, this might mean Jesus could have risen around the 9th hour and remained in the tomb until the stone was rolled away at dawn of the fourth day. This would be in keeping with the fact that Mary was on her way to the tomb before dawn and just as dawn was breaking, there was an earthquake and the stone was rolled away from the tomb and Jesus came out.



David


Mark 15:42-43,

When it was already evening, since it was the day of preparation, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea,a distinguished member of the council, who was himself awaiting the kingdom of God, came and courageously went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.

So that's at the end of the sixth day, beginning of the seventh, entrance of Sabbath.
But it's also at the beginning of the counting of the omer, seven weeks = 7 x 7 days, until Pentecost, the fiftieth day, day of Revelation.
(Since the Synoptici have Jesus crucified on the first day of Pesach.)

Luke even has the 50 days divided in 40 +10 days, thus showing up the (well known) 1:4 ratio, that is also showed up by the gematrias of the two trees of paradise, (233 versus 932).

Acts 1:3,

He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

Reckon after what must have been the first day of his appearance! (It doens't say "after he was risen")

Acts 1:11 clearly alludes to Daniel 7:13,

They said, “Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven

so that you might think that Luke with his 40 and 50 days alluded to Daniel's secret,

"mem-s'tumah" (the closed (final) Mem) versus "nun p'shutah" (the outstretched (final) Nun), last letter of Deniel 12:13 (where you had expected a closed Mem)

("mem"= 40; "nun"= 50).


Daniel 12:9,

“Go, Daniel,” he said, “because the words are to be kept secret and sealed until the end time.
LXX,

καὶ εἶπέν μοι ἀπότρεχε δανιηλ ὅτι κατακεκαλυμμένα καὶ ἐσφραγισμένα τὰ προστάγματα ἕως ἂν


κατακεκαλυμμένα is from καλύπτω, "kalupto" = cover, hide,
root of Ἀποκάλυψις , "apokalupsis" = Revelation.

More: Jewish Pentecost is on the sixth day of the month Sivan -
that's how it relates tot the sixth day of creation:


Rashi:

the sixth day: Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that He stipulated with them, [“you were created] on the condition that Israel accept the Five Books of the Torah.” [The numerical value of the “hey” is five.] (Tanchuma Bereishith 1). Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]

[Ps 27:1]

Hey there Steve, :icon_hello:

Welcome back! It's been a while.

I wouldn't trust any solution to the 3 days thing. There's too much confusion and contradiction. If there were any good solution, I would have expected it to have been found sometime in the last 2000 years. There are lots of aspects to the problem. Some verses say after three days while others say on the third day, and there are HUGE contradictions in things like the anointing at Bethany, the whole account of the Passion week, the birth narratives, and much more so I can't imagine why anyone would have any confidence that a solution based on parsing the meaning of "heart of the earth" could really solve anything with any confidence. But hey! I'm interested to see your take on it.

As for Anderson's work - I've got his book. I filled it with notes in the margin documenting his errors. My vote on that book is :thumbsdown: . But that's another discussion ....

In any case, Welcome back!

Richard

Hi Richard,

Yes, it has been a while because I wasn't sure it was profitable for me to invest time on this forum. I guess I need it for reasons I'll explain in another thread.

As far as this thread is concerned, I would like to stay focused on the 3d/3n aspect and leave the rest for later, ok? I know you like to go off on tangents.:winking0071: So do I, but for now, let's try to stay focused on one specific topic to its final resolution. As for the book, ignore everything except ch 9. I.e., Jesus was crucified on the Feast day(15th) and not Passover (14th)

To anyone who wants a personal response from me, I ask that you read the 2 links from my previous post first. I prefer not to have to type something that has been adequetly done by someone else.

Let's start with FACTS.

1. Did Jesus literally say he would be in the "tomb" 3 days and 3 nights? No!
2. Does the common assumption that "heart of the earth" = tomb create contradictions in the bible? Yes (see below)
3. Is there another interpretation to "heart of the earth" that actually resolves the "mystery/ parable/ etc.? Yes (see below)
4. What is the most common expression used in the bible to say when Jesus would rise? Third day.


Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mat 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


5. Is there another expression for the time frame? Yes, "after three days", but it is used only once (Mat 27:63 doesn't count because of the source)

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

6. Are there possible solutions to this discrepancy? Yes, see below

7. Was Jesus crucified on Passover the 14th? No, even though the synchronism is tempting, the bible is very clear.


Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed


8. What metaphor did Jesus use to describe his death? Serpent, not lamb. Interesting.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

9. What incident allowed the Israelites to leave Egyp and when? Death of firstborn sons. They left the night between 14th and 15th.

10 Is there a parallel in the NT?

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

11. When did Jesus offer his body to be eaten (i.e., passover lamb)? Last supper, not the next night.

12. When did Jesus start literally bleeding? The night he was betrayed.

I'm out of time. More to come.

Steve

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Yes, it has been a while because I wasn't sure it was profitable for me to invest time on this forum. I guess I need it for reasons I'll explain in another thread.

As far as this thread is concerned, I would like to stay focused on the 3d/3n aspect and leave the rest for later, ok? I know you like to go off on tangents.:winking0071: So do I, but for now, let's try to stay focused on one specific topic to its final resolution. As for the book, ignore everything except ch 9. I.e., Jesus was crucified on the Feast day(15th) and not Passover (14th)

To anyone who wants a personal response from me, I ask that you read the 2 links from my previous post first. I prefer not to have to type something that has been adequetly done by someone else.

Let's start with FACTS.

<snip>

I'm out of time. More to come.

Steve

Hey there Steve,

Yes, I am like most folks. I tend to digress on many topics. It's inevitable since the topics are so interconnected. That's the nature of knowledge. But it's good to stick to one topic as much as possible, so I'll follow your lead on this one.

I'll review the data you present as time permits. I've been working on a new article for my blog all week and I'm very near completion so it requires my full attention right now.

I like your approach ... let's start with the facts. :thumb:

Richard

[Ps 27:1]

Hey there Steve,

Yes, I am like most folks. I tend to digress on many topics. It's inevitable since the topics are so interconnected. That's the nature of knowledge. But it's good to stick to one topic as much as possible, so I'll follow your lead on this one.
......

Richard

I agree, it's all connected (like string theory:D) and I used to catch flak for "bird walking" as a teacher.:lol:

FACTS continued:

13. Is the Feast day (15th) called a sabbath? This is iffy. I know the Day of Atonement is called a sabbath (Lev 23:32) but all I see for the Feast of Unleavened Bread is that it is a festival, a sacred assembly, and they are to do no regular work. Ex 12:14-16. Notice, they are allowed to prepare food, whereas in the DOA they are to do no work. So, can we call it a sabbath? To me, it is irrelevant. Call it a sabbath; it won't help.

14. Can we tell from scripture that Jesus rose on the 1st day and not any other day? One thing that some Wed/Thur advocates try to throw out there is that Jesus actually rose Saturday (sabbath) afternoon/evening. (Bite your tongue, Steve.) First off, this directly contradicts Luke 24:21. Second, Paul calls Jesus the firstfruits. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. And according to Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

(BTW, Richard, I just saw that the gematria for Lev 23:10 is 777 x 10 = 7770. Also, while I'm birdwalking:D, did you know there are 3*7*73 verses in Genesis? Discovered that almost 2 years ago. Neat, since Genesis 1:1 is 37*73. Back on topic.:lol:)

Third, Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils

15. Jesus spoke to the general public in parables to purposely hide truths from insincere people. Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

16. If the most obvious interpretation to a parable was always the right one, then Jesus didn't do a very good job of hiding his pearls. This should be axiomatic.

17. Does Jesus use "the earth" as a symbol for a man's heart? Yes. In fact, the same day he gave the sign of Jonah (Mat 12:40), he gave several parables having to do with seed and soil/ field.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

18. Did Jesus use tomb/ sepulchre to describe certain people? This should be an easy one. Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The same Greek word is used in Mat 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
Mat 27:66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch

18a. Corollary to 18. If Jesus described the people who would eventually "capture" him as sepulchres, then he would in a sense be entombed when he was under their control. Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Whew! This is taking too long at the speed I type.:lol:

Let me start "crunching" some of the facts.

Using the indirect proof method:

-Assume Jesus was literally in the tomb 3 days/ 3 nights.
-Jesus would have to rise on the 4th day which contracts fact #4
-If Jesus was buried Thursday afternoon and raised Sunday morning, that would give us 3 nights and about 2.2 days. But the big problem is that Friday is not a sabbath. So what do people say? Thursday was Passover(14th) and Friday was the Feast day(15th) and hence a sabbath. I agree, but then they say Jesus was crucified on Passover (14th) which contradicts fact #7 which is as plain and clear as you can get. Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover and he was crucified on the Feast Day.
-If Jesus was buried on Wednesday afternoon then he would have to be raised on Saturday afternoon to get exactly 3 days/3 nights. And this is what some people do, but it contradicts fact #14. It also means the women had all Friday to finish preparing the body, which they didn't.

-Since the original asumption leads to hopeless contradictions, it must be false. Or else, Richard is right(the Bible is not trustworthy as a guide) and we should all follow his lead.

The good news is that there is an alternative interpretation that actually works. It even solves the riddle of Jesus rising on the third day and after 3 days and 3 nights.

If one would look at my Sarah's Key riddle in the Math forum, you would see how the common assumption(2 Dimensional) never leads to the solution. Assumptions are part of life. We all make them and sometimes they are necessary (I assume the driver will stay on his side of the road). Sometimes we don't even realize when we are making them. The problem is, are we willing to swallow our pride and let go of our false assumptions when they have been proven to be false.

Since logic eliminates the first assumption, I believe we are left with 2 alternatives:

1. The expression 3D/3N is an idiom for a time period (the commonly accepted answer for Friday crucifixion advocates)
2. The phrase "heart of the earth" means something other or more than the tomb (my and others belief)

I have no beef with people that go with #1 above. It makes more sense than the Wed/Thur crowd.
I accept #2 because it fits everything so beautifully. It's a perfect fit and it makes sense with so many other parables and types in the bible.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Did you catch that? Jesus didn't just die physically; he also died spiritually. The lamb became a snake. He was forsaken by God. Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In the garden before his betrayal: Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
(NIV he says overwhelmed) This is like Jonah in the belly of the "whale"

Jon 2:3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Psa 88:6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
Psa 88:7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah. (NIV has overwhelmed)

Stay tuned. More to come.:D

Steve

[duxrow]

About #13.
Compare Ex23 and 34:18-23, Lev23, Numb28,29, Deut 16, and Neh8, for an abundance of data concerning these feasts. The multiple names didn't mean more feasts; it was still just these three feasts which the Hebrews were instructed to observe on three occasions each year. From wherever they lived, they would travel to Jerusalem, to the Temple where God had chosen to place His name, to celebrate these feasts.

Concerning Passover/Unleavened BreadNum28:17: And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num28:18: In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:
Num28:25: And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.

[Ps 27:1]

About #13.
Compare Ex23 and 34:18-23, Lev23, Numb28,29, Deut 16, and Neh8, for an abundance of data concerning these feasts. The multiple names didn't mean more feasts; it was still just these three feasts which the Hebrews were instructed to observe on three occasions each year. From wherever they lived, they would travel to Jerusalem, to the Temple where God had chosen to place His name, to celebrate these feasts.

Concerning Passover/Unleavened BreadNum28:17: And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Num28:18: In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:
Num28:25: And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.

Hi Dux:yo:,

I was aware of everything you wrote, but I'm not sure what is your point. I included #13 in my list because even if the Feast day(15th) is a sabbath, that does nothing for Wed/Thur advocates. What they do is then shift the crucifixion to Passover day (14th) which explicitly contradicts the scripture. See fact #7. It's amazing to see the lengths and contortions people go through to force their imagined synchronisms into scripture. The bible could hardly be any clearer. Jesus was not crucified on Passover the 14th. It might make from dramatic sermons and songs, and I've heard both, both they are biblically incorrect.

Steve

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Let's start with FACTS.

1. Did Jesus literally say he would be in the "tomb" 3 days and 3 nights? No!
2. Does the common assumption that "heart of the earth" = tomb create contradictions in the bible? Yes (see below)
3. Is there another interpretation to "heart of the earth" that actually resolves the "mystery/ parable/ etc.? Yes (see below)
4. What is the most common expression used in the bible to say when Jesus would rise? Third day.


Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mat 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


5. Is there another expression for the time frame? Yes, "after three days", but it is used only once (Mat 27:63 doesn't count because of the source)

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

6. Are there possible solutions to this discrepancy? Yes, see below

7. Was Jesus crucified on Passover the 14th? No, even though the synchronism is tempting, the bible is very clear.


Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed


8. What metaphor did Jesus use to describe his death? Serpent, not lamb. Interesting.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

9. What incident allowed the Israelites to leave Egyp and when? Death of firstborn sons. They left the night between 14th and 15th.

10 Is there a parallel in the NT?

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

11. When did Jesus offer his body to be eaten (i.e., passover lamb)? Last supper, not the next night.

12. When did Jesus start literally bleeding? The night he was betrayed.

I'm out of time. More to come.

Steve
We got some facts that need to be clarified. There are issues around the time "third day" verses. There are two phrases used:

τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ "the third day" - This is used in most of the verses.

μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας "after three days" - This is used in four verses (Mat 27:63, Mark 8:31, Mark 9:31, Mark 10:34 )

You missed this in the two verses I highlighted red in your list apparently because of the Greek text you used. There are textual variations in the highlighted verses. The TR has "the third day" for Mark 9:31, 10:34 whereas the modern critical edition NA27 has "after three days" for those verses. And Mark 8:31 has "after the third day" in all the Greek versions.

So there is strong evidence that Mark really did say "after the third day." You said there was a solution "below" but it's not in this post. I'll check your later posts.

Richard

[duxrow]

Hi Dux:yo:,
I was aware of everything you wrote, but I'm not sure what is your point. I included #13 in my list because even if the Feast day(15th) is a sabbath, that does nothing for Wed/Thur advocates. What they do is then shift the crucifixion to Passover day (14th) which explicitly contradicts the scripture. See fact #7. It's amazing to see the lengths and contortions people go through to force their imagined synchronisms into scripture. The bible could hardly be any clearer. Jesus was not crucified on Passover the 14th. It might make from dramatic sermons and songs, and I've heard both, both they are biblically incorrect. Steve

Fact #7? Where's that? I'm a Wednesday advocate, Steve, IAW the diagram on 1st page, and believing Jesus WAS the Passover who was crucified the day before Unleavened Bread.
Don't know of 'explicit contradiction', and have no reason to doubt the 72 hrs. shown on the diagram. Besides, on Resurrection Sunday was also "Firstfruits", beginning the 7wk countdown to Pentecost. http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/webdoc22.htm

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I agree, it's all connected (like string theory:D) and I used to catch flak for "bird walking" as a teacher.:lol:

(BTW, Richard, I just saw that the gematria for Lev 23:10 is 777 x 10 = 7770. Also, while I'm birdwalking:D, did you know there are 3*7*73 verses in Genesis? Discovered that almost 2 years ago. Neat, since Genesis 1:1 is 37*73. Back on topic.:lol:)

Yep, but I hadn't thought about that for a long time. The whole 37 x 73 thing is very cool, being the product of the fourth Hex/Star pair, and it condenses to 37 x 73 => 373 = LOGOS (Word) which is a Koch Star (fractal variation on the hexagonal Star numbers). Cool stuff ... and quite digressive for this topic. And actually much more interesting to me, since I am utterly convinced that it is vain to try to resolve the contradictions in the Bible.



15. Jesus spoke to the general public in parables to purposely hide truths from insincere people. Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

16. If the most obvious interpretation to a parable was always the right one, then Jesus didn't do a very good job of hiding his pearls. This should be axiomatic.

17. Does Jesus use "the earth" as a symbol for a man's heart? Yes. In fact, the same day he gave the sign of Jonah (Mat 12:40), he gave several parables having to do with seed and soil/ field.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

18. Did Jesus use tomb/ sepulchre to describe certain people? This should be an easy one. Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

The same Greek word is used in Mat 27:61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
Mat 27:66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch

18a. Corollary to 18. If Jesus described the people who would eventually "capture" him as sepulchres, then he would in a sense be entombed when he was under their control. Luk 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Whew! This is taking too long at the speed I type.:lol:

I find the method of listing many facts to be tedious and unfruitful. I much prefer axiomatic logic and lucid statements. I prefer to state my conclusions and the reasons for them. That way, folks can use their knowledge to immediately judge what you are saying and you won't have to repeat things that everyone already knows. If there is a point of dispute, then you can focus on the point and it won't be lost in ten thousand "facts" the obscure more than they reveal.

But that's just me.



Let me start "crunching" some of the facts.

Finally! That's where you should have started in my estimation.



Using the indirect proof method:

-Assume Jesus was literally in the tomb 3 days/ 3 nights.
-Jesus would have to rise on the 4th day which contracts fact #4

Nope. We have a contradiction either way, since Mark said AFTER the third day at least once for sure, and probably three times given the textual evidence.

I think it's foolish to assume a "literal" three days, as if that means exactly 72 hours. The unit of "day" is not sufficiently precise to conclude anything about the exact number of hours. What if he knew he would be in the grave for 63 hours. How would he have said it? There is no reason to presume such precision, especially since the Bible is filled with so much ambiguity anyway.



-If Jesus was buried Thursday afternoon and raised Sunday morning, that would give us 3 nights and about 2.2 days. But the big problem is that Friday is not a sabbath. So what do people say? Thursday was Passover(14th) and Friday was the Feast day(15th) and hence a sabbath. I agree, but then they say Jesus was crucified on Passover (14th) which contradicts fact #7 which is as plain and clear as you can get. Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover and he was crucified on the Feast Day.
-If Jesus was buried on Wednesday afternoon then he would have to be raised on Saturday afternoon to get exactly 3 days/3 nights. And this is what some people do, but it contradicts fact #14. It also means the women had all Friday to finish preparing the body, which they didn't.

Again, we have a contradiction no matter what solution you choose, because John contradicts the Synoptics on the day they ate the last supper.



-Since the original asumption leads to hopeless contradictions, it must be false. Or else, Richard is right(the Bible is not trustworthy as a guide) and we should all follow his lead.

We already know that the Bible cannot be trusted. The fact that we are having this conversation after the most utterly devout students of Scripture have worked non-stop for 2000 years to resolve this question and have never found a consensus solution should be proof enough.



The good news is that there is an alternative interpretation that actually works. It even solves the riddle of Jesus rising on the third day and after 3 days and 3 nights.

If one would look at my Sarah's Key riddle in the Math forum, you would see how the common assumption(2 Dimensional) never leads to the solution. Assumptions are part of life. We all make them and sometimes they are necessary (I assume the driver will stay on his side of the road). Sometimes we don't even realize when we are making them. The problem is, are we willing to swallow our pride and let go of our false assumptions when they have been proven to be false.

Since logic eliminates the first assumption, I believe we are left with 2 alternatives:

1. The expression 3D/3N is an idiom for a time period (the commonly accepted answer for Friday crucifixion advocates)
2. The phrase "heart of the earth" means something other or more than the tomb (my and others belief)

I have no beef with people that go with #1 above. It makes more sense than the Wed/Thur crowd.
I accept #2 because it fits everything so beautifully. It's a perfect fit and it makes sense with so many other parables and types in the bible.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Did you catch that? Jesus didn't just die physically; he also died spiritually. The lamb became a snake. He was forsaken by God. Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

In the garden before his betrayal: Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
(NIV he says overwhelmed) This is like Jonah in the belly of the "whale"

Jon 2:3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Psa 88:6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
Psa 88:7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah. (NIV has overwhelmed)

Stay tuned. More to come.:D
Actually, your solution is an old one.
Steve
Your quote from 2 Cor 5:21 does not necessarily say what you think it says. Gotta watch out for those pesky "assumptions" ya know? :p

The phrase "made him to be sin" probably means "made to be a sin offering." That's standard Semitic language style. We see it in both the Hebrew and Greek versions of the OT. The idea that Christ was literally made to be "sin" has no basis in Scripture as far as I know.

[duxrow]

:sEm_oops:Mybad! NOW I see #7 OK (right after I'd commented..) Trying to watch Huckabee at same time! hah.
My own alma mater doesn't seem to agree with me either, so maybe no big deal.:yo:

[Ps 27:1]

Fact #7? Where's that? I'm a Wednesday advocate, Steve, IAW the diagram on 1st page, and believing Jesus WAS the Passover who was crucified the day before Unleavened Bread.
Don't know of 'explicit contradiction', and have no reason to doubt the 72 hrs. shown on the diagram. Besides, on Resurrection Sunday was also "Firstfruits", beginning the 7wk countdown to Pentecost. http://www.cswnet.come/~duxrow/webdoc22.htm

From my post yesterday 4:49 my time.

7. Was Jesus crucified on Passover the 14th? No, even though the synchronism is tempting, the bible is very clear.

•Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
•Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
•Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
•Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed

How do you explain away these verses? Yes, Jesus was the Passover and he gave his body at the last supper. You cannot force every detail of the type into the anti-type, otherwise you will end up in the absurd. Was Jesus' blood put on doorframes? Was his flesh roasted and eaten? Were the remains burned? Was the Passover lamb nailed to a stick in the ground? Was it tortured and mocked? Did it experience a fast or slow death. I could go on, but hopefully you get my point. Yes, it seems convenient to have Jesus die just as the Passover lamb was slain. But that is not how the bible records it as much as you and I or anyone else wants it to be. We must look elsewhere for the synchronism. The bible even says the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

The key to understanding this mystery is the fact that the bible describes 2 types of deaths. Spiritual and physical. Jesus didn't just die physically. He also experienced spiritual death. And they were both slow and painful for him. I must go for now, more later.

Steve

[David M]

Fact #7? Where's that? I'm a Wednesday advocate, Steve, IAW the diagram on 1st page, and believing Jesus WAS the Passover who was crucified the day before Unleavened Bread.
Don't know of 'explicit contradiction', and have no reason to doubt the 72 hrs. shown on the diagram. Besides, on Resurrection Sunday was also "Firstfruits", beginning the 7wk countdown to Pentecost. http://www.cswnet.come/~duxrow/webdoc22.htm



Hello duxrow

Is the link broken or the server down? The link given is not obtainable. I would like to compare before I will post and will do so after Steve has completed his series of posts.


David

[duxrow]

Hi David - The dot com turned into dot comE, and won't work that way. Prob my error, David. Working OK now. :yo:

[Ps 27:1]

:sEm_oops:Mybad! NOW I see #7 OK (right after I'd commented..) Trying to watch Huckabee at same time! hah.
My own alma mater doesn't seem to agree with me either, so maybe no big deal.:yo:

Hi Dux,

I agree, it probably shouldn't be a big deal. I believe my first encounter with the Wed doctrine was from Armstrong and the WCOG. He DID make a big deal out of it (get all red in the face, etc.:lol:). I was willing to accept his belief, but the more I investigated, the more I saw it was fatally flawed. My desire is that people just get their facts straight before making bold claims.

If one googles three days and three nights, http://www.ucg.org/doctrinal-beliefs/son-man-will-be-three-days-and-three-nights-heart-earth/, comes up first. The very first statement is a lie, "Jesus Christ plainly said He would be entombed for three days and three nights." No, he did not! We know from Jesus' previous parables that the earth can mean the heart of man. That is a fact. (see #17, and that, Richard, is why I did what I did. Saves a lot of typing:D)

Another flaw from the website: They have Jesus rising Saturday afternoon. This contradicts facts 4 and 14 (See, Richard, this is the Geometry teacher in me coming out. Establish your postulates, definitions, theorems, etc and then make your proof:p) You, Dux, according to your chart, have Jesus rising on Sunday, but that puts Jesus in the tomb for 4 nights:eek:.

But the biggest flaw of the website's article and Duxrow's chart is that they contradict fact #7. SAGSAC. Strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. They insist(not you personally, Dux) that Jesus really meant the tomb (based on what? Their intuition?) (the gnat) and then completely ignore or twist the explicit words found in fact #7 verses (the camel). People flat out say the Last Supper was not the Passover when that is exactly what the scripture say it was.

Another flaw with the Wed theory: Since there is a gap between the sabbaths, they have the women spending all day Friday preparing the spices. This is reading between the lines and is a huge stretch. All day to mix a few spices? Uh, okay, whatever. Even if I grant them that assumption, that still doesn't negate fact #7, Jesus' disciples killed the Passover lamb on the right day. See Luke 22.

Steve

[duxrow]

:icon_hello:
2 conundrums here, Steve..

The 3+3, and the timing of eating -- did the Lamb eat himself at that 'Last Supper' ? hah! Was the DaVinci painting his 'last meal', where Judas had the bag -- was it the Passover Meal in fact? Or had customs changed down thru the years... like the shoe biz of Deut25:9, compared to Ruth4:7. And how both names, UB and Passover, apply to that 1st mos. feast.

•Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. (Really? Not in accord with OT, but maybe in general terms.)

Granted, it's absurd to be eating the Lamb prior to killing it(him), so the meal on the 13th would have just preceded the walk to Gethsemane on the evening which began the 14th.

I like your word 'synchronism', and agree we shouldn't force any absurd or exacting patterns, but my position is that the Holy Ghostwriter has done a marvelous job of presenting this piece of meat for our chewing. amen?

John19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Don't know about Armstrong's opinions or website -- used to listen to Garner Ted, but don't really recall anything special he preached. Had a great voice though. :yo:

[David M]

Hi to all

Having read the posts and replies, I am going to give my way of understanding this.

Regarding the eating of Jesus' body. This was the last time Jesus was going to partake of this feast. He said (Matt 26:29; But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Jesus instituted this feast as a way of remembering him in the future days when he would not be with them and this is a reminder that like the disciples, we can expect the kingdom of God to come. ( Luke 22:19) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This was to remember Jesus and as we know the disciples did that which they were expected to and so met on the first day of the week to break bread; (Acts20:7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Jesus did not give any specific instruction as the frequency and day on which this was to be one and so we take our lead from what the disciples did. We know Paul did the same; (1 Cor. 11:23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread..... (26) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

We know that the bread and the wine are only symbols and are not the physical body of Jesus and Jesus expected his disciples to do this until he come, which is why it is still practiced in our own time.

Regarding the 3 days and 3 nights. I agree that this has nothing to do with the time in the tomb and is actually the minimum time Jesus could be in the tomb. Jesus was in the tomb possibly more than 72 hours. However, Jesus might only have been dead for 72 hours and this is the difference. Jesus was dead sufficiently long that there can be no doubt in the miracle of resurrection. Jesus raised Lazarus as we know after a similar period in which his body would have began to stink, but Lazarus was destined to die a natural death again. Jesus was most likely raised precisely after 72 hours and remained in the tomb until the stone was rolled away. Jesus had not by this time ascended to be with His Heavenly Father for this is what he told Mary; (John 20:17) 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:


So while Jesus remained in the Garden, there was no necessity to leave the tomb before the stone was rolled away. The rolling away of the stone was only necessary for those who came to the tomb to see that Jesus was not there and they would come to know he was risen from the dead.

The facts fit in precisely and in answer to the time it took to prepare the spices, we are told that the women first had to go and buy the spices which might have taken half a day. The purchase and preparation was done on the Friday before the Sabbath.

So with that said; this is the sequence. The only question I have and would seek confirmation on is the exact year.

Sequence of Events

Jesus said (Matt 12:40); For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [This is the minimum time we can expect Jesus to be in the "heart of the earth"

and Jesus knew the numbers of hours in a day (as well as night) (John 11:9):Are there not twelve hours in the day?

3 days + 3 nights = 72 hours.

To fit in with the fact that the women came to the sepulcher on the first day of the week (Sunday)
(Luke 24:1); Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

The women had to prepare spices. The women could not have done this on the Sabbath or the High Sabbath. (Luke 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mark adds an extra detail (16:1) And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. It might have taken half a day to purchase all the spices necessary, so we can see why it took most of the day to prepare the spices.

The "sabbath" referred to by Mark must have been a High Sabbath which was on the Thursday and so the women bought spices on the Friday and then prepared them.
(John 19:31) The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)

The only day Jesus could have been crucified was on the Wednesday at around the ninth hour. It could not have been later than this day.
(Matt 27:46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice..... (Matt 27:50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the spirit.

Jesus could not have been raised before (around) the ninth hour on the Sabbath (Saturday). Jesus could have risen and remained in the tomb until it was opened at dawn when there was an earthquake at which time the stone was rolled away. This was done so that those coming to the tomb could look inside. The tomb itself was not an obstacle for the risen Jesus.

Passover day had to be on 14th day of the month Abib (1st month in God's sacred calendar)
(Exodus 12:18) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.


The year in which the High Sabbath was on Thursday and to fit in with the other facts, the year has calculated to be AD31. Is this the correct year?



David

[David M]

Hi David - The dot com turned into dot comE, and won't work that way. Prob my error, David. Working OK now. :yo:

Funny how we can all miss the obvious at times. I should have studied the url to spot the error. Herein is a lesson.

I have since visited the website and it looks like we are in agreement.

The prophecy of Jesus was completed to the letter and once again, those who look to disprove the Bible are shown to be wrong. It does not take twisting words or distorting facts to clearly see what went on and that all the Gospel accounts are united. The same approach can be taken with any apparent contradiction in the Bible and except for man-made errors, the word of God is consistent and accurate. The elimination of errors by study and deduction is all that is required. Just because we do not understand something does not mean that the word of God is wrong; it is simply that we have not found the way to resolve the apparent problem.

All the best

David

[duxrow]

Hi to all

Having read the posts and replies, I am going to give my way of understanding this.

Regarding the eating of Jesus' body. This was the last time Jesus was going to partake of this feast. He said (Matt 26:29; But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Jesus instituted this feast as a way of remembering him in the future days when he would not be with them and this is a reminder that like the disciples, we can expect the kingdom of God to come. ( Luke 22:19) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This was to remember Jesus and as we know the disciples did that which they were expected to and so met on the first day of the week to break bread; (Acts20:7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Jesus did not give any specific instruction as the frequency and day on which this was to be one and so we take our lead from what the disciples did. We know Paul did the same; (1 Cor. 11:23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread..... (26) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

We know that the bread and the wine are only symbols and are not the physical body of Jesus and Jesus expected his disciples to do this until he come, which is why it is still practiced in our own time.

Regarding the 3 days and 3 nights. I agree that this has nothing to do with the time in the tomb and is actually the minimum time Jesus could be in the tomb. Jesus was in the tomb possibly more than 72 hours. However, Jesus might only have been dead for 72 hours and this is the difference. Jesus was dead sufficiently long that there can be no doubt in the miracle of resurrection. Jesus raised Lazarus as we know after a similar period in which his body would have began to stink, but Lazarus was destined to die a natural death again. Jesus was most likely raised precisely after 72 hours and remained in the tomb until the stone was rolled away. Jesus had not by this time ascended to be with His Heavenly Father for this is what he told Mary; (John 20:17) 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:


So while Jesus remained in the Garden, there was no necessity to leave the tomb before the stone was rolled away. The rolling away of the stone was only necessary for those who came to the tomb to see that Jesus was not there and they would come to know he was risen from the dead.

The facts fit in precisely and in answer to the time it took to prepare the spices, we are told that the women first had to go and buy the spices which might have taken half a day. The purchase and preparation was done on the Friday before the Sabbath.

So with that said; this is the sequence. The only question I have and would seek confirmation on is the exact year.

Sequence of Events

Jesus said (Matt 12:40); For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [This is the minimum time we can expect Jesus to be in the "heart of the earth"

and Jesus knew the numbers of hours in a day (as well as night) (John 11:9):Are there not twelve hours in the day?

3 days + 3 nights = 72 hours.

To fit in with the fact that the women came to the sepulcher on the first day of the week (Sunday)
(Luke 24:1); Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

The women had to prepare spices. The women could not have done this on the Sabbath or the High Sabbath. (Luke 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mark adds an extra detail (16:1) And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. It might have taken half a day to purchase all the spices necessary, so we can see why it took most of the day to prepare the spices.

The "sabbath" referred to by Mark must have been a High Sabbath which was on the Thursday and so the women bought spices on the Friday and then prepared them.
(John 19:31) The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)

The only day Jesus could have been crucified was on the Wednesday at around the ninth hour. It could not have been later than this day.
(Matt 27:46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice..... (Matt 27:50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the spirit.

Jesus could not have been raised before (around) the ninth hour on the Sabbath (Saturday). Jesus could have risen and remained in the tomb until it was opened at dawn when there was an earthquake at which time the stone was rolled away. This was done so that those coming to the tomb could look inside. The tomb itself was not an obstacle for the risen Jesus.

Passover day had to be on 14th day of the month Abib (1st month in God's sacred calendar)
(Exodus 12:18) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

The year in which the High Sabbath was on Thursday and to fit in with the other facts, the year has calculated to be AD31. Is this the correct year?

David
Nice job, David. The time-line looks right to me, but I'm not savvy about that year AD 31 you speak of. History of the Temple destruction in 70AD (as Jesus said) suggests to me that our calendar may be correct.

[Ps 27:1]

:icon_hello:
2 conundrums here, Steve..

The 3+3, and the timing of eating -- did the Lamb eat himself at that 'Last Supper' ? hah! Was the DaVinci painting his 'last meal', where Judas had the bag -- was it the Passover Meal in fact? Or had customs changed down thru the years... like the shoe biz of Deut25:9, compared to Ruth4:7. And how both names, UB and Passover, apply to that 1st mos. feast.

•Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. (Really? Not in accord with OT, but maybe in general terms.)

Granted, it's absurd to be eating the Lamb prior to killing it(him), so the meal on the 13th would have just preceded the walk to Gethsemane on the evening which began the 14th.

I like your word 'synchronism', and agree we shouldn't force any absurd or exacting patterns, but my position is that the Holy Ghostwriter has done a marvelous job of presenting this piece of meat for our chewing. amen?

John19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Don't know about Armstrong's opinions or website -- used to listen to Garner Ted, but don't really recall anything special he preached. Had a great voice though. :yo:

Hi Dux:yo:,

I'm not sure of the point of your first paragraph. I may be a bit dense, so you have to spell things out clearly to me. Ok?:thumb:

I don't understand your quote from Luke 22:7. The Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread are a package deal. In verse 1, the implication is that "Passover" is used to describe the whole feast just like for today, Christmas vacation means a 2 week break for students. How does anything you've said change the fact that Christ and his disciples prepared and ate the Passover on the proper day?

Steve

[Ps 27:1]

Your quote from 2 Cor 5:21 does not necessarily say what you think it says. Gotta watch out for those pesky "assumptions" ya know? :p

The phrase "made him to be sin" probably means "made to be a sin offering." That's standard Semitic language style. We see it in both the Hebrew and Greek versions of the OT. The idea that Christ was literally made to be "sin" has no basis in Scripture as far as I know.

Hi Richard :yo:,

On the Blue Letter Bible website, all but NLT use that expression and even they put it in a footnote. Considering the construct of the sentence, it makes perfect sense. 2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

We are made or become the "righteousness of God" which is a different take than say, Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

He is made guilty, we are made innocent. The righteousness of God in Jesus is transfered to us, while the sinfulness of man is transfered to him. It is almost as if we were on trial for murder with the death penalty and he comes in and says, "Let them go, I did it.":eek: How else do you explain the serpent on the pole metaphor?

Even if "sin offering" is the better translation, that does nothing for Wed/Thur advocates. The Passover lamb sacrifice is not a guilt/sin/ atonement offering. Nowhere does it say that, that I am aware of. However, on the Feast day (15th), there are several offerings, including this: Num 28:22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.

Also, it was the death of the firstborn that allowed the Israelites to leave on the same day, the 15th. Why do you think a prisoner was realeased on that day? Mar 15:6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.

Another thing, the Passover was killed at twilight. Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (NIV says twilight) Jesus died 3:00 PM (9th hour)

Steve

[duxrow]

Hi Dux:yo:,
I'm not sure of the point of your first paragraph. I may be a bit dense, so you have to spell things out clearly to me. Ok?:thumb:

I don't understand your quote from Luke 22:7. The Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread are a package deal. In verse 1, the implication is that "Passover" is used to describe the whole feast just like for today, Christmas vacation means a 2 week break for students. How does anything you've said change the fact that Christ and his disciples prepared and ate the Passover on the proper day?

Steve
Sorry, Steve, Guess it's a reaction to those who speak of 7 Feasts instead of 3, like I thought myself at one time.
I'm always skeptical when anyone wants me to 'dumb it down'. However, in Exodus they killed the lamb, and then they ate it, but that order has to be reversed in the case of the crucifixion.. (Gets sticky here because today we "eat the Word" whenever we read the Bible..) That first 'upper room' was prepared for them to eat the Passover, but I'm not certain it wasn't just a rehearsal.

Rather than fixating on the 14th as the day for eating, I'm seeing it as the day for killing.

[Ps 27:1]

Hi to all

Having read the posts and replies, I am going to give my way of understanding this.

Regarding the 3 days and 3 nights. I agree that this has nothing to do with the time in the tomb and is actually the minimum time Jesus could be in the tomb. Jesus was in the tomb possibly more than 72 hours. David

My response: :confused:


However, Jesus might only have been dead for 72 hours and this is the difference. Jesus was dead sufficiently long that there can be no doubt in the miracle of resurrection. Jesus raised Lazarus as we know after a similar period in which his body would have began to stink, but Lazarus was destined to die a natural death again.

My response: Irrelevant. Jesus had his heart pierced with a spear. Blood and water came out. No further proof necessary.


Jesus was most likely raised precisely after 72 hours and remained in the tomb until the stone was rolled away.

My response: Pure speculation.


Jesus had not by this time ascended to be with His Heavenly Father for this is what he told Mary; (John 20:17) 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:


So while Jesus remained in the Garden, there was no necessity to leave the tomb before the stone was rolled away. The rolling away of the stone was only necessary for those who came to the tomb to see that Jesus was not there and they would come to know he was risen from the dead.

My reponse: You are just speculating again.


The facts fit in precisely and in answer to the time it took to prepare the spices, we are told that the women first had to go and buy the spices which might have taken half a day. The purchase and preparation was done on the Friday before the Sabbath.

My response: Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
So you are saying Wed night, Thursday, and Thur night transpired between verses 55 and 56. That is pure speculation and you are contradicting the verses that prove Jesus was crucified on the Feast day, 15th. They could have easily bought the spices after sundown Sabbath. Remember, Jerusalem was packed and there would have been plenty of opportunities for buying and selling.


So with that said; this is the sequence. The only question I have and would seek confirmation on is the exact year.

Sequence of Events

Jesus said (Matt 12:40); For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. [This is the minimum time we can expect Jesus to be in the "heart of the earth"

and Jesus knew the numbers of hours in a day (as well as night) (John 11:9):Are there not twelve hours in the day?

3 days + 3 nights = 72 hours.

My response: In light of what you said in the 1st paragraph, this makes no sense. Do you believe "heart of the earth" means tomb? Yes or no? Simple question.


To fit in with the fact that the women came to the sepulcher on the first day of the week (Sunday)
(Luke 24:1); Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

The women had to prepare spices. The women could not have done this on the Sabbath or the High Sabbath. (Luke 23:56) And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mark adds an extra detail (16:1) And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. It might have taken half a day to purchase all the spices necessary, so we can see why it took most of the day to prepare the spices.

My response: This is pure speculation on your part. I don't mind you speculating, just don't pass it off as bible "fact" which is exactly what you are doing.


The "sabbath" referred to by Mark must have been a High Sabbath which was on the Thursday and so the women bought spices on the Friday and then prepared them.
(John 19:31) The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)

My response: You are speculating again. Do you even know what a "High Sabbath" is? Did you even read the links I first posted? The sabbath was a high sabbath because it was during the festival just like Christmas on Sunday would make that Sunday a special Sunday. Give me the SCRIPTURAL reference where the Feast day is called a high sabbath. You can't because there isn't. You are just speculating.


The only day Jesus could have been crucified was on the Wednesday ...

My response: Your speculation which I have already proven false from scripture, not speculations.


Passover day had to be on 14th day of the month Abib (1st month in God's sacred calendar)
(Exodus 12:18) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

My response: Yes, and the disciples prepared and killed the Passover on that day, according to the bible. Therefore, Jesus was crucified the next day, the 15th, the Feast day ( your so called "high Sabbath"). So the Wed theory is one big fail.



The year in which the High Sabbath was on Thursday and to fit in with the other facts, the year has calculated to be AD31. Is this the correct year?

David

My response: There is much debate over the correct year, but that doesn't solve your day of the week dilemma.

Steve

[duxrow]

:bounce: Whatever! It's a marvelous problem, even after 400+ years of perusal by the World--will we be surprised by heaven's solution, you think?

Ex12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Ex12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Can't prove it, but "hi sabbath" believed to be same as day of "holy convocation". :yo:

[Ps 27:1]

Sorry, Steve, Guess it's a reaction to those who speak of 7 Feasts instead of 3, like I thought myself at one time.
I'm always skeptical when anyone wants me to 'dumb it down'. However, in Exodus they killed the lamb, and then they ate it, but that order has to be reversed in the case of the crucifixion.. (Gets sticky here because today we "eat the Word" whenever we read the Bible..) That first 'upper room' was prepared for them to eat the Passover, but I'm not certain it wasn't just a rehearsal.

Rather than fixating on the 14th as the day for eating, I'm seeing it as the day for killing.

Hi again, Dux,

The problem with the rehearsal idea is this:

•Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
•Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
•Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
•Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed

No matter how you slice it and dice it, Jesus did not die on the 14th. Unless you want to say Matthew, Mark, and Luke don't know what they are talking about. I get it. You are saying technically the first day is the Feast day so they messed up. If this is what you believe, then you are straining out a gnat. Both Mark and Luke clarify themselves so that there is no confusion (see bold type). And technically, the Passover is eaten on the 15th (night of the Passover sacrifice).

Jesus had already been betrayed spiritually by Judas, he was soon to be struck down physically. He had already fufilled the Passover type, he was now fulfilling the firstborn slaying type and the brass serpent (not a lamb) on the pole.

We know the Feast day(15th) is not a high sabbath because Jesus was crucified on the Feast day and the next day is the high sabbath. Ergo, Jesus was crucified on Friday.

Why do you and David add to the scriptures (he was in the tomb 3d/ 3n - which is stated nowhere) and take away what is plainly stated (Jesus and his disciples did not really observe the 14th).

You say it is a marvelous problem. It really isn't that complicated if you just let the scripture guide you instead of speculations.

The biggest problem I see is that people like Armstrong get an idea in their head (which I have no problem with) and because they think they have this exclusive and/or special revelation, they go full speed ahead and refuse to acknowledge that they may be mistaken. Been there, done that. I'm not immune to self-deception.:lol:

At one point, I was willing to accept a Wed or Thur crucifixion. They just don't hold up to scrutiny/ scripture. I apologize if I am coming across arrogant or rude. I don't feel either, I just want the truth to shine.

Steve

[duxrow]

:deadhorse:

You write: 'We know the Feast day(15th) is not a high sabbath because Jesus was crucified on the Feast day and the next day is the high sabbath. Ergo, Jesus was crucified on Friday'.

Passover(14th) was NOT a high sabbath, whereas the 15th (first day of UB) WAS.

Ex12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Ex12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand;
and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover. (But NOT a hi sabbath).

Don't want to beat a dead horse, Steve, so may not pursue further, but still don't see it your way. (*lets give it a rest?..) :pray:

[Ps 27:1]

:deadhorse:
Passover(14th) was NOT a high sabbath, whereas the 15th (first day of UB) WAS.

Hi Dux and anyone else,

Where did I say the 14th was a high sabbath?:confused: I am afraid you are confused. If you need to take a break from this discussion, fine, but I will continue to defend what the bible says to anyone who wants to talk/ listen. This is afterall a forum.:D

We know Jesus and the disciples observed the Passover (14th) See fact #7 above. We know (explicitly from scripture, no speculating) the next day Jesus was crucified (15th, called the Feast day). We know the next day (16th) is called a high sabbath. Therefore, the 16th is a Saturday. The 15th is Friday and the 14th is Thursday. BTW, this makes Sunday (17th) technically the 3rd day of the Feast with goes along with Jesus saying he would rise the 3rd day. It is also the same day the ark came to rest on the earth. Gen 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.


Don't want to beat a dead horse, Steve, so may not pursue further, but still don't see it your way. (*lets give it a rest?..) :pray:

If you can't back up your claims on a public forum, then don't make them in the first place, okay? I have nothing against you personally, just the silly Wed crucifixion doctrine which is easily refuted from the bible.

Peace and love, brother

Steve

[duxrow]

I get frustrated when trying to explain something in the Bible, but forgetting a major point or scripture location -- then 'afterwards' remembering and complaining 'Why didn't HS remind me?' hah. You've BTDT, no doubt.

They didn't know anything about the coming of the Lamb of God, Jesus, but they dutifully selected their lamb on the 10th day of that first month and took it home. Four days later, on the 14th (could be any day of the week, but it occurred at full-moon), they killed that lamb, and smeared the blood over the doorposts of their homes, and then ate the lamb! "Eat all of it", "eat it in haste, with your loins girded" and "don't break a bone of it", were also included in their instructions.

Nothing was said about fancy tablecloths or extra seating for guests, and they certainly couldn't know how the legs of Jesus would be unbroken at Calvary, Jn19:31, as added confirmation to his identity. It's essential to be aware of how Jesus is not only the Lamb, but according to Scripture is also the Bread, the Lion, the Vine, the Door, the Cornerstone, the Light of the World, the Resurrection, the Alpha & Omega, etc.

Num28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. 28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. 28:18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

Leviticus23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover. 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

My interpret: The 14th was different from the holy convocations. Not trying to be smart alec or wise-guy, Steve, so offered you an out, not a victory! :p
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/webdoc20.htg/3D3N.gif

[David M]

If you can't back up your claims on a public forum, then don't make them in the first place, okay? I have nothing against you personally, just the silly Wed crucifixion doctrine which is easily refuted from the bible.

Peace and love, brother

Steve

Hello Steve

May I suggest a little humility. I am presently watching a series of videos that I have come across very recently. I am enjoying learning new facts and also accepting as the presenter admits to having not always known the truth and preached it, but has now made up for that. I am accepting new facts and also modifying my thinking about some things.

If you can give up 25 minutes or so and watch the video through and are open to the truth, then you might also learn something from the following video. If you remain convinced and could never possibly be wrong that what you learned from someone else is correct the only correct interpretation, I guess no evidence will convince you otherwise. I would much prefer to argue the pros and cons of what is presented in this and other videos in the series in order to get to the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpsfvV3tt2A

All the best

David

[David M]

I get frustrated when trying to explain something in the Bible, but forgetting a major point or scripture location -- then 'afterwards' remembering and complaining 'Why didn't HS remind me?' hah. You've BTDT, no doubt.

My interpret: The 14th was different from the holy convocations. Not trying to be smart alec or wise-guy, Steve, so offered you an out, not a victory! :p
http://www.cswnet.com/~duxrow/webdoc20.htg/3D3N.gif


Hello duxrow
I get equally frustrated with not being able to recall things that I know are in my memory banks (wishing also I could erase some things as well).

Thinking of the day starting at sunset is like turning our day upside down. For a moment I thought, have I got this wrong? Then when I saw your reply, I relaxed again.


The one other point that we should note is that though the feast of unleavened bread starts on the fifteenth, unleavened bead was to be eaten from the 14th to the 21st. (Exodus 12:18) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.


I am in the process of doing a side by side comparison of the synoptic accounts around the time of the passover leading to the death of Jesus. It is quite difficult to match everything up, but having watched some of the videos in the series ( here is the link again given to Steve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpsfvV3tt2A ) I am realizing that not every story is in chronological order and as the presenter says, Matthew is the one to not keep things in chronological order. This does not mean that the events do not support one another, because they do.

Regarding where is says; ( Matt. 26:17) Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
This was peculiar to me at first for it would seem that if the feast of unleavened bread does not start until the day after the passover on the 15th, the disciples were preparing for the passover a day late. However, the actual eating of unleavened bread starts on the 14th; and this is the first day in which unleavened bread is eaten. So I think we are being confused by the actual start of 'The Feast of Unleavened Bread' with the start of both feasts eating unleavened bread which starts on 14th.

I am happy with the explanation that Jesus was in the grave (dead) for three full nights and days. I think Steve would have us believe Jesus was possibly in the grave 3 nights and 2 days by taking Friday and Sunday as partial days. The sign is so important that this is the only sign Jesus was to give that would seal his authority. (Matt. 12:39) But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
The word "but" indicates that beside this, there was no other sign given. This was the only sign they would be given and in keeping with the commandments, we would expect Jesus to get it right and do exactly what he said would happen. I think the wording could not be any plainer and easier to understand that 3 nights and 3 days equals 72 hours.


All the best

David

[duxrow]

Yeah David, no doubt in my mind about the confusion.
Your next to last paragraph re Matt26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? was what caught my eye -- hadn't really noticed this before, although the two names for that 1st month feast are hard to handle, as well as the clock biz. Like I say, the Holy Ghostwriter did well!

I did watch some of that video (may go back again), and liked the parts I could understand! :winking0071:

[Roberto]

Hi all.

I noticed this topic, i was wondering about this 3 days and 3 nights many years of my christian life, since we celebrate Jesus died on a friday, and hebrews first day in the week is a sunday.
But this website cleared it up for me.

http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/solving-the-three-day-three-night-mystery/


Others argue that this view doesn’t permit three full days and three full nights in the tomb but that’s not what the Scripture says. It simply says three days and three nights. If you move his death up to Wednesday like some teach to get three full days you violate the Passover Lamb prophecies, and the disciples on the Emmaus road would have to have said it was the fourth day since the crucifixion. So the Thursday date is the only one that will accommodate both the Passover Lamb and the three day three night prophecies.

Don't know if Daniel 9,27 fits this

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease

If it all started on 10. of Nisan riding into Jerusalem. Ending and starting on 17. of Nisan when He arose from the dead. Thats 7 days.

Something interesting about Jesus day of resurection 17. of Nisan,

Noah's boat rested on Mount Ararat on the 17. day of the 7. month.
The 7.month at Noahs time was changed to the 1. month in Moses time when he was told about the passover.

Ararat means "curse reversed"

Ararat = "the curse reversed: precipitation of curse"
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/ararat.html

Jesus resurection reversed the curse of the law.

[David M]

Hello Roberto


Hi all.

I noticed this topic, i was wondering about this 3 days and 3 nights many years of my christian life, since we celebrate Jesus died on a friday, and hebrews first day in the week is a sunday.
But this website cleared it up for me.

http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/solving-the-three-day-three-night-mystery/




I visited the website above and this is what it says:
The Passover Lamb

The next issue we have to address is the sequence of events in the week we call Holy Week. In Exodus 12, where the Passover was ordained, we learn what that sequence was. God told the Israelites to select a lamb on the 10th day of the month and inspect it for defects until the 14th. This means through the end of the 13th. Then at twilight they were to slaughter and roast it, eating it that same evening. Using some of its blood they were to paint their door posts red to protect them from the plague coming upon Egypt at midnight.

Now compare this to what I have obtained from a website that is based on understanding the Torah and keeping the Jewish traditions. I think this fully explains the matter and how the passover is on the 14th and is followed immediately by the 'feast of unleavened bread' on the 15th which is an Annual Sabbath. In the website you refer us to they say the passover lamb is cooked in the early hours of the night of the 14th immediately after the 13th day has ended. The Hebrew website says the passover lamb is killed on the 14th and cooked in the afternoon of the 14th before the end of the day. This makes sense as the lamb is then eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs in the early hours of the 15th which is the beginning of he feast of unleavened bread.


John 19:30-31 When Yahushua therefore had received the vinegar, He said, KALA: 3 “it is finished” or Bride. And He bowed His head, and dismissed His ruach (Spirit).
31 The Yahudim therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain upon the stake on the Shabbat, - for that Shabbat day was a Shabbat Gadol,
a high day* besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

At sunset would begin a double Sabbath day, a weekly and an Annual Sabbath Day that was the beginning of the 15th the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, as soon as the preparation day had ended. * It should read annual Sabbath day (Not high day)
They wanted to take Yahushuas body down from the stake and place Him in the tomb before the beginning of the Annual Sabbath day that would begin at sunset, called The Feast of Unleavened Bread. Not knowing that Yahushua had already died, they besought pilot to break his and the thieves legs, so they would die quickly. So they could be buried before the Shabbat began.
We know of course the Lamb is cooked on the 14th Passover day (also called preparation day) at the 9th hour or approx 3:00 pm or between the evenings (Beyn-Ha-Arbayim), Which goes into that night during the beginning of the 15th.
We are to eat the lamb with unleavened bread, and by the time it‟s baked the 15th day, which is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread, would have already begun at sunset. The next Scripture explains what to do as we enter this Annual Sabbath Day.
In Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be a miqra kodesh (Holy Convocation Day), and on the seventh day there shall be a miqra kodesh (Holy convocation Day) to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, except that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you.
We that understand Passover, know that this is stating that we may cook the lamb between the evenings (Beyn-Ha-Arbayim) after 3:00 pm on the 14th Passover day (preparation day) going over into the 15th day that began at sunset. And we may cook on the 21st the seventh day that which we must eat at even after 3:00 pm. and before sunset, because at sunset begins the Sabbath the 22nd day of the month.



A new couple of questions arise as to which website is correct when it comes to time the passover lamb is killed. Is the ceremonial killing by the Priest in the temple a different time to when the feast is celebrated in homes? Was the supper that Jesus had with his disciples a passover meal or just an ordinary supper pre the passover meal in the night of the 15th which Jesus could not have joined in with his disciples since he was killed on the day the passover lamb was killed? The Hebrew website says about the 9th hour of the day whereas the other website suggests the lamb must be killed at around the 1st hour of the night on the 14th. If as it is recorded Jesus celebrated the Passover with his disciples, he would have had to eat the supper on the night of the 14th. and so the non-Hebrew website might be more correct on this point.





All the best

David

[Ps 27:1]

Hi all.

I noticed this topic, i was wondering about this 3 days and 3 nights many years of my christian life, since we celebrate Jesus died on a friday, and hebrews first day in the week is a sunday.
But this website cleared it up for me.

http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/solving-the-three-day-three-night-mystery/

Hi Roberto:yo:,

Thanks for joining in the discussion. As for your link, I have seen it before. He makes several assumptions that are not backed up by scripture.

First assumption:

"The special Sabbath John referred to is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and it’s a date specific holy day; always observed on the 15th of the month they call Nisan, which corresponds to March/April on our calendar. So the first thing we learn is that the special Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 wasn’t a Saturday."

Please read this link by a very respected scholar (you can read about his credentials on the website)http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/crucifixion/2.html

He deals with both "the preparation day" and "high sabbath" from a scriptural and historical basis, not speculation and circular reasoning.

Second assumption:

"Jesus died on Preparation day, the 14th of their month Nisan, which is Passover. He ate the ritual meal with His disciples in the Upper Room, and then was arrested, tried, convicted, and put to death; all on Passover. He had to be, in order to fulfill the prophecies of the Passover Lamb.

So basically he just called Mark and Luke confused.:eek: (edit: because "liars" is over the top, sorry)

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: I don't see anything here about a ritual meal. That is just a fabrication by the Wed/ Thur crowd.

Then he repeats this assumption:

"As I’ve said, Jesus had to die on Passover to fulfill the prophecy."

No he did not. Where does it say that? Pure speculation. Was Jesus' body burned like the Passover lamb's was? No. Was Jesus's blood put on the doorframes of houses? No. Why did the disciples eat his body and drink his blood (which is prohibited by the law) before and not after. Another thing, when Jesus said (Luk 22:20)" ..., This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. ", it is present tense. What about this?Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If Jesus died on the 14th, he would not fulfill the slaying of the firstborn son (Ex 13). I could go on and on, but the point is that he is making an assumption and not backing it up with scripture.

He then makes an ironical error:

"A little over 100 years ago a believer named Robert Anderson was head of Scotland Yard’s investigative division. He became intrigued by the three days and three nights issue and enlisted the help of the London Royal Observatory to investigate the problem ...."

This is almost comical, because in my first post (#9), I provide a link so you can read Sir Anderon's work. (David, did you read this link? A yes or no would suffice.) That book was where I first saw the idea of what the phrase "heart of the earth" really meant. SRA does not agree with Jack Kelley's hypothesis. He believes in a Friday (15th) crucifixion. This shows either sloppiness or dishonesty on Kelley's part.

And last (there is probably more, but this should be enough) but not least, he makes the critical assumption that "heart of the earth" means the tomb or grave:

"Others argue that this view doesn’t permit three full days and three full nights in the tomb but that’s not what the Scripture says. It simply says three days and three nights."

Nowhere does Jesus or the bible say that the "heart of the earth" is the tomb or grave. Nowhere! This is purely an assumption because it "seems obvious". But we don't need to assume or guess. The bible and Jesus give plenty of examples to see what "earth" really means in parables.

Some quick examples:

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Earth = tomb here? Nope!

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Earth = tomb here? Nope

Eze 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: "land" is same Hebrew word as here: Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So we see the bible uses expressions like "land/ earth" sinning, but we know that people sin, not rocks or dirt.:lol:

If people would just keep reading in Matthew, they would see the solution. And this was given the same day.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it
So we see the seed is the word and we know that Jesus is the word (John 1)

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Again, the seed is the word (Jesus)

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
"Ground" is same Greek word as "earth"

Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
KYV actually uses "earth" in the parable. So we can see that the type of "earth" has to do with the condition of the heart.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Consider this verse: Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

In other words, if you don't understand the parable of the sower, how are you going to understand any parables which would include the one about Jonah. BTW, Jonah was never dead while in the whale/ fish. Did you ever stop to think about that?

Richard, if you are lurking, here is a little gem for you, although you probably are already aware of it.:lol:

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word. Gematria = 2368 = Jesus Christ. Cool! Jesus is the sower and the seed just like he is the Shepherd and the Lamb.

Anyway, Roberto, this all is not directed at you personally. Most everyone, including myself have and/ or do assume that "the heart of the earth" = the grave or tomb. It is a common assumption. No big deal. The question is, what will you do when it has been shown from scripture to be a false assumption. The Wed/Thur theories add to, take away from, and twist scriptures to make them fit. The "heart of the earth" = heart of sinful man does none of that and fits perfectly.

Please spend less than 5 minutes to listen to this podcast about the Jonah sign. http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/1170/t/explain-how-jesus-was-in-the-tomb-3-days---3-nights..aspx You too, David. I watched your Michael Rood video. He makes the same assumption, earth = tomb.

Blessings,
Steve

[David M]

Hello to all

Just to show that I can change my opinion when I am shown the truth, I might have to change my views and begin to agree with Steve. Whilst I was too eager to reject his argument, I was probably doing so because it was not properly explained as to why we have to interpret the 3 days and 3 nights of the sign of Jonah as a shadow type of Jesus being in the "heart of the Earth" which was Israel ministering for 3 years (full days 1 year = 1 day0.

Maybe out of the fog, we might be getting a clearer picture. I am prepared to accept that Jerusalem is the capital city in Israel from which the law will go forth when Jesus returns, a contentious point I know, but just as I might be amending my understanding, and am willing to when faced with incontrovertible evidence, then at least the jury is out for me and I trust others will have the same regard to examining their own position on matters. Either way, a solution to this will be found.

One certain way of deciding which is correct would be to know the exact sequence of events as they were carried out and the fact that the High day referred to by John in his gospel is referring to the fact that the weekly Sabbath coincided in the first month of the Hebrew calendar with the sabbath day of the first day of unleavened bread. Now in one article I have been reading the High Day is said to be the Annual Sabbath.

The reason for having to rethink this is because of the Hebrew calendar that has been brought back into operation in Israel by those who have realized that the Roman calendar and the Gregorian calendar are pagan calendars and have been misleading us in the same way that mainstream Christendom has been lead astray. The revival of the Hebrew language from what was a dead language and the first of its kind to happen, is part of the restoration of Israel leading to the restoration of all things. I am encouraged more now by the fact that a large proportion of Jews is waking up to the fact that God has been behind their restoration and has fulfilled His promise in bringing the Jews back to the land. Jews which have been holding on to tradition are now realizing that Jesus is the son of God and that Jesus is going to return and rule from Jerusalem and that the time of trouble like there never was or shall be again might soon be upon us. The Jews are waking up to the fact that their Messiah will come.

It is the restoration of the Jewish calendar that is beginning to alter some of my thinking to the way prophecy will be fulfilled. The Hebrew calendar is also going under the name of the Creator's Calendar and is based on the Hebrew times and seasons as mentioned in the law (Torah) in which the start of the year is defined by the ripening of the barley harvest. The month beginning with the new moon in which the barley harvest ripens is determined to be the first month of a new year. Hence the first month (Abib) coincides with when the barley ripens. It is in this first month that the Passover and the feast of unleavened bread takes place. The sabbath days will therefore always be on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 29th of the month (forget Monday, Tuesday etc). The days resort to being called the first, second, third day etc.

Since Passover is now on 14th of the Month the first day of unleavened bread on the 15th always has to be the same as the Weekly Sabbath. This being the case, the idea of two Sabbath days close together has to be dismissed. Since there is only one Sabbath day involved, then that means that the time Jesus is in the grave must be revised and the reference to Jonah being in the belly of the whale 3 days and 3 nights is somewhat a red herring (excuse the pun) and has to be explained.

Unless the Jews at the time of Jesus' death were not carrying out the feasts as prescribed in the law, that would be the only reason to support the view that Jesus was crucified on the day corresponding to the Wednesday. If the passover and the feast was properly kept and the first day of the new year corresponding to the month in which the barley harvest ripens, then we are forced to go with the fact that Jesus was raised on the third day and not after 72 hours (3 days and 3 nights). The other supporting piece of evidence not totally grasped by me was that on the road to Emmaus that the disciples say; and this is the third day which of course would be the fourth day had Jesus been in the tomb for three whole 24-hour periods. Unless, the "third day" as spoken by the disciples is an incorrect translation, then we have to decide what is it that is incorrectly assumed or incorrectly translated. The good news is that whatever is the true answer, we are assured that Jesus rose from the dead and fulfilled the prophecy and proved God true to His word. Now that God's prophecies including those of Daniel are being re-evaluated from the point of view of determining dates using the Creator's Calendar, I think we shall have some interesting discussions coming up and the continuation of the threads to do with Daniel's 70-week prophecy will be continuing.

Now while this means I am changing my understanding of certain fulfillment of prophecy, this is no-way affects the fundamental doctrines I believe in such as Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus died and rose from the dead. The revival of the Hebrew traditions in the land of Israel and their recognition that God has regathered them is confirming doctrines held long before the Jews came to this realization and by some, even before Israel was regathered.

So to conclude, I am now almost certain that I have to say to Steve, you are right but not for the all the reasons you gave or might have missed out. The Hebrew calendar (God's calendar) must be the deciding factor for this is the time by which God is operating and for which he supplied the moon and the sun to determine times and seasons.


All the best

David

[Ps 27:1]

Hey David:yo:,

I just quickly read through your post and need to get ready for bed, (It is 12:09 AM my time) so I won't respond to the details now except one. First off, I'm impressed with your willing spirit, especially since you said in an earlier post your mind was made up.:lol: Really, brother, you have taught me a lesson: don't be so quick to judge someone, or better yet, don't judge at all. I was wrong about you and I will try to tone down my rhetoric. I know I can get a bit cocky at times and I need the transforming grace of Jesus as much as anyone.

Anyhow, I've heard or read that Jerusalem is the heart of the world. Too tired to look it up now. This would tie in with the Jonah sign because Jesus was held captive by the sinful men of Jerusalem for 3 nights and it wasn't till after 3 days that he was "resurrected " in the hearts of his disciples, i.e., Sunday night. That was the first time he was alive to them, spiritually speaking, after he was captured in the garden.

BTW, if you have Google Earth, you can "stretch" a line from the "holy of holies" spot on the temple mount in Jerusalem to the Kaaba stone in Mecca. It is exactly, and I mean exactly, 666 nautical miles.:eek: (The Moslem holy day is Friday) Found this out in this book.http://www.amazon.com/Temple-At-Center-Time-Deciphered/dp/0981495745 Somebody has my copy. But this makes sense with Jerusalem also being "the heart of the earth". Maybe someone can back it up with scripture.

Something also to consider. God's greatest acheivement in Creation was on the 6th day when he created man. On the 6th day, the Israelities gathered double the manna, etc. so they worked extra on that day. Wouldn't it also seem fitting for Jesus to do his greatest work of saving man on the day of man and "keeping the sabbath" even in his death? Just speculating. See, I can do it, too.:lol:

Anyway, peace, grace, and love to you, a brother in Christ,
Steve

[David M]

Hey David:yo:,

I just quickly read through your post and need to get ready for bed, (It is 12:09 AM my time) so I won't respond to the details now except one. First off, I'm impressed with your willing spirit, especially since you said in an earlier post your mind was made up.:lol: Really, brother, you have taught me a lesson: don't be so quick to judge someone, or better yet, don't judge at all. I was wrong about you and I will try to tone down my rhetoric. I know I can get a bit cocky at times and I need the transforming grace of Jesus as much as anyone.

Anyhow, I've heard or read that Jerusalem is the heart of the world. Too tired to look it up now. This would tie in with the Jonah sign because Jesus was held captive by the sinful men of Jerusalem for 3 nights and it wasn't till after 3 days that he was "resurrected " in the hearts of his disciples, i.e., Sunday night. That was the first time he was alive to them, spiritually speaking, after he was captured in the garden.

BTW, if you have Google Earth, you can "stretch" a line from the "holy of holies" spot on the temple mount in Jerusalem to the Kaaba stone in Mecca. It is exactly, and I mean exactly, 666 nautical miles.:eek: (The Moslem holy day is Friday) Found this out in this book.http://www.amazon.com/Temple-At-Center-Time-Deciphered/dp/0981495745 Somebody has my copy. But this makes sense with Jerusalem also being "the heart of the earth". Maybe someone can back it up with scripture.

Something also to consider. God's greatest acheivement in Creation was on the 6th day when he created man. On the 6th day, the Israelities gathered double the manna, etc. so they worked extra on that day. Wouldn't it also seem fitting for Jesus to do his greatest work of saving man on the day of man and "keeping the sabbath" even in his death? Just speculating. See, I can do it, too.:lol:

Anyway, peace, grace, and love to you, a brother in Christ,
Steve

Hello Steve

Thank you for your kind words. I am still not convinced by my new find. I will give you an images and an extract from Wikipedia to think about. It would be good to get the benefit of Richard's Hebrew studies. I was impressed by the Michael Rood videos which started off with his video on Sodom and Gomorrah. From this I was interested in what else he had to say. I liked his approach getting back to proper Bible study and his use of KJV Bible and resorting to the Hebrew and Greek meaning of words. His Jonah Code videos endorsed what I had come to understand and that there are High days (rest days) in addition to the weekly Sabbaths. You will note that Michael Rood refers to the Creator's Calendar and is getting back to the old Hebrew way of dating and I am looking forward to how that leads him to understand the 70-week prophecy of Daniel. He also has a co-presenter Nehemiah Gordon who is belongs to the Karaites and Michael Rood is a Rabbi and lives in Israel. When you here him, he sounds very American and also the equally looking Hebrew on this other website (remaining nameless for the moment) was a true American. Since the Karaites base their understanding on the Torah, and are promoting the original calendar of the Hebrews and the keeping of the Sabbath and the feasts, I took what Nehemiah Gordon was saying in the videos was in agreement with Michael Rood.

Michael Rood also says that the ministry of Jesus lasted 70-weeks. That is an interesting period and somehow he is relating this to Daniel's prophecy. Just as we have been opposed by our Christian teaching from Gentile teachers leading us to different conclusions, I was looking forward to hearing from a Rabbi with the same fundamental beliefs that I have. Following along this line of discovery and getting back to the original Hebrew calendar. I came across another Hebrew website and preaching what I thought was going to be the same Hebrew calendar. I was too eager with my new find since I have now found two sites claiming to get back to the original Hebrew calendar only to find that they have similar differences. Whereas Rood says Jesus ministered for 70 weeks, this other site claims Jesus ministered for 3 years, hence the 3 years (days) "in the heart of the earth". On the other hand their calendar is different and where Rood is allowing for the weekly sabbath to occur on different days say for the first month, this other calendar is fixing the weekly Sabbath to the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 29th. This is why I am posting the calendar below for you to see and also the extract from Wikipedia regarding High Days. This is what has to be resolved. Either the weekly Sabbath changes its position in the first month of a new year or else it is fixed as shown in the picture. Whichever calendar is correct, will lead to the conclusion that Jesus was in the tomb for less that 72 hours and rose the "third day" or else Jesus was in the tomb for 72 hours. This is where we need to have a definite answer as to the correct way of compiling the calendar. The only agreement is that passover is on 14th day of the first month corresponding to the barley harvest ripening and the feast of unleavened bread starts on 15th.

I did not expect to receive conflicting information from two Hebrew sources.


Biblical rest days
The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). They are observed by Jews and a minority of Christians. Three of them occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost). Four occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles).[4] Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals.[5]
The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English.


723

I might be away from the forum for a few days. I am attaching a pdf in which it is explained how the above calendar has been deduced from the scriptures. If anyone would like to read the attachment and show the error of this document I would appreciate that.

Also I was referring to the emphatic diaglott which is a scanned image and has some unreadable words in the translation. Here are the Greek word and would anyone like to give their translation of what they read?

724






All the best

David

[Roberto]

Hi Roberto:yo:,

Thanks for joining in the discussion. As for your link, I have seen it before. He makes several assumptions that are not backed up by scripture.

First assumption:

"The special Sabbath John referred to is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and it’s a date specific holy day; always observed on the 15th of the month they call Nisan, which corresponds to March/April on our calendar. So the first thing we learn is that the special Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 wasn’t a Saturday."

Please read this link by a very respected scholar (you can read about his credentials on the website)http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/crucifixion/2.html

He deals with both "the preparation day" and "high sabbath" from a scriptural and historical basis, not speculation and circular reasoning.

Second assumption:

"Jesus died on Preparation day, the 14th of their month Nisan, which is Passover. He ate the ritual meal with His disciples in the Upper Room, and then was arrested, tried, convicted, and put to death; all on Passover. He had to be, in order to fulfill the prophecies of the Passover Lamb.

So basically he just called Mark and Luke confused.:eek: (edit: because "liars" is over the top, sorry)

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: I don't see anything here about a ritual meal. That is just a fabrication by the Wed/ Thur crowd.

Then he repeats this assumption:

"As I’ve said, Jesus had to die on Passover to fulfill the prophecy."

No he did not. Where does it say that? Pure speculation. Was Jesus' body burned like the Passover lamb's was? No. Was Jesus's blood put on the doorframes of houses? No. Why did the disciples eat his body and drink his blood (which is prohibited by the law) before and not after. Another thing, when Jesus said (Luk 22:20)" ..., This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. ", it is present tense. What about this?Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If Jesus died on the 14th, he would not fulfill the slaying of the firstborn son (Ex 13). I could go on and on, but the point is that he is making an assumption and not backing it up with scripture.

He then makes an ironical error:

"A little over 100 years ago a believer named Robert Anderson was head of Scotland Yard’s investigative division. He became intrigued by the three days and three nights issue and enlisted the help of the London Royal Observatory to investigate the problem ...."

This is almost comical, because in my first post (#9), I provide a link so you can read Sir Anderon's work. (David, did you read this link? A yes or no would suffice.) That book was where I first saw the idea of what the phrase "heart of the earth" really meant. SRA does not agree with Jack Kelley's hypothesis. He believes in a Friday (15th) crucifixion. This shows either sloppiness or dishonesty on Kelley's part.

And last (there is probably more, but this should be enough) but not least, he makes the critical assumption that "heart of the earth" means the tomb or grave:

"Others argue that this view doesn’t permit three full days and three full nights in the tomb but that’s not what the Scripture says. It simply says three days and three nights."

Nowhere does Jesus or the bible say that the "heart of the earth" is the tomb or grave. Nowhere! This is purely an assumption because it "seems obvious". But we don't need to assume or guess. The bible and Jesus give plenty of examples to see what "earth" really means in parables.

Some quick examples:

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Earth = tomb here? Nope!

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Earth = tomb here? Nope

Eze 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: "land" is same Hebrew word as here: Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So we see the bible uses expressions like "land/ earth" sinning, but we know that people sin, not rocks or dirt.:lol:

If people would just keep reading in Matthew, they would see the solution. And this was given the same day.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it
So we see the seed is the word and we know that Jesus is the word (John 1)

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Again, the seed is the word (Jesus)

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
"Ground" is same Greek word as "earth"

Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
KYV actually uses "earth" in the parable. So we can see that the type of "earth" has to do with the condition of the heart.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Consider this verse: Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

In other words, if you don't understand the parable of the sower, how are you going to understand any parables which would include the one about Jonah. BTW, Jonah was never dead while in the whale/ fish. Did you ever stop to think about that?

Richard, if you are lurking, here is a little gem for you, although you probably are already aware of it.:lol:

Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word. Gematria = 2368 = Jesus Christ. Cool! Jesus is the sower and the seed just like he is the Shepherd and the Lamb.

Anyway, Roberto, this all is not directed at you personally. Most everyone, including myself have and/ or do assume that "the heart of the earth" = the grave or tomb. It is a common assumption. No big deal. The question is, what will you do when it has been shown from scripture to be a false assumption. The Wed/Thur theories add to, take away from, and twist scriptures to make them fit. The "heart of the earth" = heart of sinful man does none of that and fits perfectly.

Please spend less than 5 minutes to listen to this podcast about the Jonah sign. http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/media/e/1170/t/explain-how-jesus-was-in-the-tomb-3-days---3-nights..aspx You too, David. I watched your Michael Rood video. He makes the same assumption, earth = tomb.

Blessings,
Steve

Hi, i will listen to that podcast soon when i have the time. It will be interesting to hear what alternatives that is. I believe the heart of the earth means when he died on the cross, not when he was in the tomb. But it goes for the since since i believe that it was on the 14. he died in the 9. hour. The website i showed shows that if that happened, it would qualify the 3 days and nights. I have to crosscheck those verses that contradicts, in my own language. I believed they ate the supper the beginning of thursday, which would be for us the wednesday evening. After that, they went out to getsemane, and Jesus was captured. Put on trial in the thursday early morning, senteced instead of Barrabas. Put on the cross right before the sixth hour and died somewhere between the sixth and ninth hour. Taken down from the cros and in the tomb before the twelth hour which started the High Sabbath 15. Nisan, and called friday, and then the regular sabbath saturday came 16. Nisan, and then somewhere in 17. Nisan, the tombstone was rolled away.

It could be that Jesus, as when they ate from the corn of the field on the sabbath and said that Son of man is over the Sabbath because He made the Sabbath.
The prepration day just means the day they prepared the passover lamb one day before the real preparation day, because Jesus is over days. And it seems that preparation day and the passover was the same day since to sabatths(friday and saturday) was about to be. And i think the misundarstandings in the different gospels could be we don't know when they mean days of Jesus being the passover lamb and the regular lamb being eaten. It's as there is a bigger focus there for us to agree how important it is that Jesus is the real passover lamb killed for our sins.


Some years before the birth of Jesus the Passover celebration had been changed and in the Lord’s time called for a brief ritual meal of lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs (horseradish) to begin the 14th followed by a great and leisurely festival meal on the 15th, when the Feast of Unleavened Bread begins. This tradition is still followed today.

The 14th became known as Preparation Day (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31), because on it they made ready for the great feast day beginning at sundown, after which no work was permitted.

About Robert Anderson believing that crucifixion was on a friday, the website only tells that he investigated that 10. Nisan happened on a sunday. I don't know if that is a lie.

The Mark 4.14 being 2368 is very cool, and i read also you wrote that all verses in genesis is 1533, that can be calculated 3*7*37. So cool.

Be blessed

[Ps 27:1]

Hi to everyone reading this:D,

Some musings on the Jonah sign:

Using the database at the top we see there are 762 verses that have the word "heart". Heart can be the center of emotions, desire, will, intellect, etc.

I don't see any place where heart is associated with tomb or grave. I suppose Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. could be made as a link, but I think it is a bit of a stretch.

Jerusalem has a heart. Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Jerusalem is at the center of nations. Eze 5:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.

Earth can mean mankind or man. I've already shown this.
Psa 96:1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
Psa 96:9 O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
Psa 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

So, could Jerusalem be the heart of the earth?

This Rabbi thinks so. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-avraham-arieh-trugman/omer-day-43-jerusalem-the-heart-of-the-world_b_1531239.html

"Since antiquity Jerusalem has been termed "the heart" of the Jewish people, the place that most symbolizes the Jewish nation's collective purpose and mission. "

Most of us, including well known scholars, have assumed that Jesus meant the tomb in Mat 12:40. We've heard it so long and from so many people that we don't even think to question its validity. But, if we let the bible interpret itself, I think a better meaning becomes evident: the heart of the earth is the spiritual condition of mankind. Yes, it leads to the grave, but that is only the end result. Jesus didn't just die; he suffered at the hands of evil men.

Did Jesus have to die on Passover to fulfill prophecy? Many preachers seem to think so because they make a big deal about him dying just as the passover lamb was being killed by the priests. Problem is, Mark and Luke are like the elephant in the room. There is no ambiguity. Jesus and his disciples ate the passover. Instead of twisting scripture to fit our assumptions, maybe we should dig further to find out why.

Why did Jesus use the present tense when instituting communion? He could have just as easily said, "This is my blood which will be poured out for many." Afterall, he did say one of you will betray me.

The passover lamb does not knowingly lay down its life and yet Jesus does. Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The Israelites did not leave Egypt because of the Passover lamb. They were released because of the death of the firstborn. Read Exodus 13: 11-16.

Jesus didn't just fulfill Passover, he fulfilled all sacrifices. See Hebrews. And yet, he didn't die on the Day of Atonement, etc.

John used Passover to refer to the whole feast. Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

So did Luke. Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

So did Ezekiel. Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

Joh 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

Lev 22:7 And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it is his food.

Since the passover lamb is eaten at night, the passover in John 18:28 was probably not it. One of my previous links describes what it probably was. I've read that the Sadducees celebrated Passover differently than the Pharisees. That may be true but it doesn't negate Mark and Luke.

Judas Iscariot and Passover:

Exo 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. Joh 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

There is more, but I'm not fond of long posts.

Steve

Edit to add: Acts 12:3-4 also shows the usage of Passover to refer to the whole feast period. https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/390-did-jesus-eat-the-passover-supper