Are all prophecies fulfiiled or have none been fulfilled?

[David M]

I understand Preterists believe all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century. Do preterists believe all Bible prophecy has been completed? Do some Preterists think that not all Bible prophecy was fulfilled or that some prophecies might have failed?

I came across a website claiming that there are many failed prophecies in the Bible. Here is the link. Failed Bible Prophecies (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies#Virgin_birth)

I will refute much of what this website claims when I can get around to doing it. Some prophecies reported as failed might have a future fulfillment in which case the claim of the website can easily be refuted.


One prophecy which has not been fulfilled and which I hold as a future event is that of the splitting apart of the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


The Mount of Olives is at the top end of the rift valley which runs for thousands of mikes along the eastern side of Africa. When the Mount of Olives splits and the topography of the area is changed, will this be seen as a natural occurrence caused by the shifting tectonic plates or will this be seen as the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy? When this happens will it be sufficient to recognize the return of Christ?


David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I understand Preterists believe all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century. Do preterists believe all Bible prophecy has been completed? Do some Preterists think that not all Bible prophecy was fulfilled or that some prophecies might have failed?

I came across a website claiming that there are many failed prophecies in the Bible. Here is the link. Failed Bible Prophecies (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies#Virgin_birth)

I will refute much of what this website claims when I can get around to doing it. Some prophecies reported as failed might have a future fulfillment in which case the claim of the website can easily be refuted.


One prophecy which has not been fulfilled and which I hold as a future event is that of the splitting apart of the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


The Mount of Olives is at the top end of the rift valley which runs for thousands of mikes along the eastern side of Africa. When the Mount of Olives splits and the topography of the area is changed, will this be seen as a natural occurrence caused by the shifting tectonic plates or will this be seen as the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy? When this happens will it be sufficient to recognize the return of Christ?


David

Good morning David,

Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic.

Like Futurism, there is a wide variety of eschatological details that fall under the general heading of Preterist. There are two general categories - Full and Partial Preterism. The same is true of Futurism though folks rarely talk about it that way. But all Christians and mostly Preterist in as much as they believe that all the prophecies concerning the coming of Christ in the first century were fulfilled. Indeed, that is the point of the whole New Testament. For example:

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Etc., etc., etc. ...

Thus, all Christians are mostly Preterist. They believe that Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah who was to come. And this is the main thrust of the NT. The prophecy of the "Elijah who was to come" who would accomplish two things, to proclaim the coming of Christ and the great and terrible day of the Lord, was fulfilled in John the Baptist. Note that John fulfilled both prophecies, and so we know that the great and terrible day of the Lord happened in 70 AD. This is independently confirmed in many passages. For example, Peter declared that Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, which also spoke of the great and terrible day of the Lord:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Likewise, Christ predicted his coming in power to judge Jerusalem would happen during the lifetimes of his first century audience, and history confirms that's what happened.

So the only questions concern some aspects of the prophecies that were stated in figurative language. Any attempt to force them into a yet future fulfillment destroys the integrity of Scripture. Thus, there are only two choices - 1) Interpret the problematic passages to fit with the first century fulfillment, or 2) Accept that the biblical eschatology is logically incoherent. A review of all the attempts to make Futurism work leaves no other alternative in my estimation.

Now concerning Zechariah 14 - we know that is figurative because it refers to sacrifices which ended with the Old Covenant in the first century and which will never be restarted since Christ was the final sacrifice:

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Furthermore, many other prophecies in Zechariah were fulfilled in Christ, such as the prophecy of his crucifixion cited above (John 19:36 = Zech 12:10), and Zech 9:9 (riding on a donkey) etc.

So the issue is not "are all prophecies fulfilled" - there is no reason to state things that way. We have to review each prophecy on its own merits and check to see if our interpretation fits with the "Big Picture" that is confirmed by many witnesses. If we don't start with the main and the plain things established by many mutually confirming witnesses, then folks can make up whatever Futurist eschatology they want, and all they will accomplish is to make a mockery of the Bible as an utterly useless guide since such folks have always been wrong every time they used it to predict the coming of Christ.

For example, I just received an email that reinterpreted the duration of a "generation" and the "starting point" of the calculations because all the previous calculations based on the establishment of Israel in 1948 have utterly failed. First it was 20 years, so Christ was expected in 1968 or 1961 = 1968 - 7 for the tribulation. That didn't work, so folks tried 40 years and came up with 1988 or 1981. But that didn't work, so folks moved the starting date to 1967 (Six Day War) and went totally nuts because 40 + 1967 - 7 = 2000! Y2K!!! They went nuts, absolutely nuts. Such a perfect number. And they were wrong, as always. The whole Futurist paradigm has led to nothing but error and is fundamentally contrary to what the Bible actually states, but that doesn't stop folks from believing it.

All the best,

Richard

[sylvius]

Thus, all Christians are mostly Preterist. They believe that Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah who was to come.

1) How do you know what Matthew meant with "fulfilled"?

2) What were the prophecies of the Messiah who was to come?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

1) How do you know what Matthew meant with "fulfilled"?


Matthew said that certain events happened to "fulfill" certain prophecies that he cited. If you think he meant something different than the normal definition of "fulfilled" then you need to share that with us. Otherwise, folks will just use the ordinary meaning of the word as we do with the words "How" and "do" and "you" and "know" and "what" and "Matthew" and "meant" and "with" and "fulfilled" in your question.



2) What were the prophecies of the Messiah who was to come?

All the ones that the NT said he fulfilled.

[sylvius]

Matthew said that certain events happened to "fulfill" certain prophecies that he cited. If you think he meant something different than the normal definition of "fulfilled" then you need to share that with us. Otherwise, folks will just use the ordinary meaning of the word as we do with the words "How" and "do" and "you" and "know" and "what" and "Matthew" and "meant" and "with" and "fulfilled" in your question.


All the ones that the NT said he fulfilled.

That's somekind of circle-reasoning.

There was no prophecy that said that the Messiah had to be born form a virgin or had to be a Nazarene, etc.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

That's somekind of circle-reasoning.

No it's not.



There was no prophecy that said that the Messiah had to be born form a virgin or had to be a Nazarene, etc.
Agreed. But the Bible says otherwise. So are you simply saying that Matthew was wrong on those points? If so, which parts of the NT do you accept as true, and which do you reject?

[sylvius]

No it's not.


Agreed. But the Bible says otherwise. So are you simply saying that Matthew was wrong on those points? If so, which parts of the NT do you accept as true, and which do you reject?

The virgin birth is a metaphor only invented after Jesus' death.

[Timmy]

Hi RAM:yo:



The intent is just to ask of you
Yet anyone else can answer too:
Just curious how full preterists historically rectify Daniel's three different accountings of abomination causing desolation?

That is just one of several Q's floating around in this mind, tide tossed and riven by perpetually flowing torrential currents of other inquisitivities through altercating data streams.

We wonder what ingenious meanderings will come to carry attention who knows where from however anyone answers here.



Though we think we each have it all figured out according to the why in what draws out our own Eschatology, we all try devising our own dogmas from time immemorial. From present to days of future past or past future, we all know none of us really has an immutable picture of what is from what was or what is to come, but few there be that admit it.

Only certain things i can be sure of:
1. No man knows the day or hour...irregardless of any notion of Father/Son hypostasis.
2. Everything referred back to as "these are only the birth pains" are only the birth pains.
3. God is so far extremely beyond any human conception of His patience and loving-kindness...and for that matter time, that none of us really comprehends much of what he does reveal, and what He does not reveal is just plain inconceivable to us.
4. Yeshua not only revealed #1 above, he said that the end of days torment would spring on people just like a trap...nobody expecting it.
5. No thief in the night shows up by our planning, preparation, or invitation.

I see and have seen alot of right and wrong things on both sides of the fence but i could be wrong.

If you want to know which camp i can be found in, that depends on which day it is...but you can usually find me sitting on the Rock, covered in mist spraying from the waterfall of a mighty rushing river.



CIO!

Barefeeteded Timmy

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi RAM:yo:



The intent is just to ask of you
Yet anyone else can answer too:
Just curious how full preterists historically rectify Daniel's three different accountings of abomination causing desolation?

That is just one of several Q's floating around in this mind, tide tossed and riven by perpetually flowing torrential currents of other inquisitivities through altercating data streams.

We wonder what ingenious meanderings will come to carry attention who knows where from however anyone answers here.

Hey Ho, Timmy Oh! :yo:

As far as I know, most Preterists think they refer to the desolation under Antiochus Epiphanes. Christ's reference to the AoD in the OD is simply a statement that something similar was going to happen to the Temple by the Romans.



Though we think we each have it all figured out according to the why in what draws out our own Eschatology, we all try devising our own dogmas from time immemorial. From present to days of future past or past future, we all know none of us really has an immutable picture of what is from what was or what is to come, but few there be that admit it.

Only certain things i can be sure of:
1. No man knows the day or hour...irregardless of any notion of Father/Son hypostasis.
2. Everything referred back to as "these are only the birth pains" are only the birth pains.
3. God is so far extremely beyond any human conception of His patience and loving-kindness...and for that matter time, that none of us really comprehends much of what he does reveal, and what He does not reveal is just plain inconceivable to us.
4. Yeshua not only revealed #1 above, he said that the end of days torment would spring on people just like a trap...nobody expecting it.
5. No thief in the night shows up by our planning, preparation, or invitation.

I see and have seen alot of right and wrong things on both sides of the fence but i could be wrong.

If you want to know which camp i can be found in, that depends on which day it is...but you can usually find me sitting on the Rock, covered in mist spraying from the waterfall of a mighty rushing river.

CIO!

Barefeeteded Timmy
Good points. I don't think I have "all the answers" by a long shot, but I am convinced that Preterism is far and away the best fit to what the Bible actually says and which we can establish upon many mutually confirming verses. The entire Futurist paradigm is just a weaving of incoherent fragments of verses and much speculative doctrines not found or supported in Scripture, and which largely contradict what the Bible actually says .... or so it seems to me! :p

Shine on bro!

:sunny:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The virgin birth is a metaphor only invented after Jesus' death.

Agreed. Would you say the same about the resurrection?

[sylvius]

Agreed. Would you say the same about the resurrection?

Not quite the same.
The virgin birth is about resurrection,
for since the resurrected one lives eternal he was already there even before conceived.
The story about the empty grave I think has been invented.
Jesus was put into the grave exactly at the entrance of sabbath, where God's name is present in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamyim", a huge stone rolled upon the door.
Door is Hebrew "delet" with gematria 434 that coincides the number of words in Hebrew Genesis 1.

The story says: don't stare blind at the grave!
Don't look for the living one among the dead.


.

[David M]

Good morning David,

Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic.

Like Futurism, there is a wide variety of eschatological details that fall under the general heading of Preterist. There are two general categories - Full and Partial Preterism. The same is true of Futurism though folks rarely talk about it that way. But all Christians and mostly Preterist in as much as they believe that all the prophecies concerning the coming of Christ in the first century were fulfilled. Indeed, that is the point of the whole New Testament. For example:

Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Etc., etc., etc. ...

Thus, all Christians are mostly Preterist. They believe that Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah who was to come. And this is the main thrust of the NT. The prophecy of the "Elijah who was to come" who would accomplish two things, to proclaim the coming of Christ and the great and terrible day of the Lord, was fulfilled in John the Baptist. Note that John fulfilled both prophecies, and so we know that the great and terrible day of the Lord happened in 70 AD. This is independently confirmed in many passages. For example, Peter declared that Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, which also spoke of the great and terrible day of the Lord:

Thank you Richard for the explanation. I agree that Jesus filled much of the prophecies spoken of by the disciples in the Gospels but now you come to talk of the last days which is recorded in Acts 2. This is clearly future from when Jesus was present on earth. From the time the book of Acts was written,the writer says; "it shall come to pass" and is speaking of events future to the author's writing



Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Of course the prophet Joel is being quoted here and as I see this, the last days is corresponding to a long period of time which would have started at Pentecost with the outpouring of God's Holy Spirit and which continues for the period of the time of the Gentiles. I do not see the evidence for the "great and notable day of the Lord come". Until that day, then all those (including the Gentiles) can "call on the name of the Lord and be saved". We have to pinpoint when the "great and notable day" takes place as also the time when God's judgement is poured out on all nations. There is a time of trouble coming like there never has been or will be again and as has been discussed in other threads on the Olivet discourse, it cannot be said the destruction that came on Jerusalem in AD70 was anything like the scale of this one-off event which will occur.


Likewise, Christ predicted his coming in power to judge Jerusalem would happen during the lifetimes of his first century audience, and history confirms that's what happened.
Vengeance belongs to God, it was God who brought the destruction on Jerusalem and will judge the nations in the time to come. Jesus is coming back with power to reign on earth and rule in righteousness. His coming (return) will be an event that will not be done in secret but will take the world by surprise just as the first flash of lightening visible lights up the whole of the sky and startles us when we see it.


So the only questions concern some aspects of the prophecies that were stated in figurative language. Any attempt to force them into a yet future fulfillment destroys the integrity of Scripture. Thus, there are only two choices - 1) Interpret the problematic passages to fit with the first century fulfillment, or 2) Accept that the biblical eschatology is logically incoherent. A review of all the attempts to make Futurism work leaves no other alternative in my estimation.
It is a false statement to say that "future fulfillment destroys the integrity if Scripture". That is your opinion and I have a different opinion and I am not forcing anything or leaving anything out.
Are you saying that the splitting in two of the Mount of Olives that I have asked about is figurative? We are not talking of a figurative hill (imo) as the hill is named and is a physical place. The Mount of Olives has never split in two and the prophecy says it will. Please answer this point.



Now concerning Zechariah 14 - we know that is figurative because it refers to sacrifices which ended with the Old Covenant in the first century and which will never be restarted since Christ was the final sacrifice:

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Another statement which is your opinion which I do not share. I already pointed out your mistake when you referred to Zechariah and people go up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Tabernacles. In 14:21 we have the word sacrifice, but it is a mistake to automatically think this is referring to a sacrifice for sin. If you look back to the time of Moses, then a sacrifice could be made as a peace offering and a sacrifice could be made as a voluntary offering. None of these just mentioned have anything to do with the sacrifice for sin.


Furthermore, many other prophecies in Zechariah were fulfilled in Christ, such as the prophecy of his crucifixion cited above (John 19:36 = Zech 12:10), and Zech 9:9 (riding on a donkey) etc.
I agree, but this does not mean that chapter 14 is speaking of the same time.


So the issue is not "are all prophecies fulfilled" - there is no reason to state things that way. We have to review each prophecy on its own merits and check to see if our interpretation fits with the "Big Picture" that is confirmed by many witnesses. If we don't start with the main and the plain things established by many mutually confirming witnesses, then folks can make up whatever Futurist eschatology they want, and all they will accomplish is to make a mockery of the Bible as an utterly useless guide since such folks have always been wrong every time they used it to predict the coming of Christ.
All prophecies have to be decided as having been fulfilled or remain to be fulfilled. If in doubt, we have to reserve our judgement, but all prophecy from AD70 has to fit into one category or another. I am arguing against those who say there in so more prophecy to be fulfilled.


For example, I just received an email that reinterpreted the duration of a "generation"
As you should keep in mind, "this generation" is used on more than one occasion and in each occasion the time frame is different. "This generation" relates to the time frame of when Jesus was speaking about.


and the "starting point" of the calculations because all the previous calculations based on the establishment of Israel in 1948 have utterly failed. First it was 20 years, so Christ was expected in 1968 or 1961 = 1968 - 7 for the tribulation. That didn't work, so folks tried 40 years and came up with 1988 or 1981. But that didn't work, so folks moved the starting date to 1967 (Six Day War) and went totally nuts because 40 + 1967 - 7 = 2000! Y2K!!! They went nuts, absolutely nuts. Such a perfect number. And they were wrong, as always. The whole Futurist paradigm has led to nothing but error and is fundamentally contrary to what the Bible actually states, but that doesn't stop folks from believing it.
We have the advantage of hindsight, but there have been Bible Scholars in the mid-1800s who believed from their understanding of God's word that Israel had to be re-established as a nation although how to determine the precise date was not know and any date was likely to be wrong.
The return of the Jews beginning in 1878 and the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a very significant date. Why have you left out that a generation can be 70 years. 1878 to 1948 is 70 years and 1948 to 2018 is 70 years; this ought to make us think that the return of Christ is not too far away.

1967 was a significant date in that I think it shows the beginning of the end in which Gentile times will come to an end. Jerusalem is still under threat even though the Jews took back the old quarter of Jerusalem and for the first time came under the complete control of the Jews. Jerusalem will come under siege again as the nations gather in Israel at the same time as God defeats those armies that come into the land and God says he will destroy them with hail stones; so let's wait and see.
The prophecies relating to the Messiah have not been completed. The Jews by enlarge still do not recognize Jesus as God's Son. The Jews have not called upon God as in the time when they cried to God and God delivered them from bondage in Egypt. They have to cry to God once more when they are in a position of no-way out and only God can save them. That is when Jesus comes as their Messiah and they will recognize him. The time of healing still has to come for the nation of Israel.
Events taking place in the Middle East now are pointing to these prophecies still remaining to be fulfillfed. There are too many world-wide factors to be ignored that are leading up to a "time of trouble like there never has been of will be again".

All the best

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thank you Richard for the explanation. I agree that Jesus filled much of the prophecies spoken of by the disciples in the Gospels but now you come to talk of the last days which is recorded in Acts 2. This is clearly future from when Jesus was present on earth. From the time the book of Acts was written,the writer says; "it shall come to pass" and is speaking of events future to the author's writing
Good morning David, :tea:

I agree that some of the events in Acts were future relative to the time the were recorded. The only question is "how long in the future?". The Bible clearly says less than a "generation" and that coheres with all the evidence. John the Baptists fulfilled both prophecies of the "Elijah who was to come." He was the forerunner of Messiah and he warned of the soon coming "great and terrible day of the Lord" when Jerusalem would be finally judged in 70 AD.



Of course the prophet Joel is being quoted here and as I see this, the last days is corresponding to a long period of time which would have started at Pentecost with the outpouring of God's Holy Spirit and which continues for the period of the time of the Gentiles. I do not see the evidence for the "great and notable day of the Lord come". Until that day, then all those (including the Gentiles) can "call on the name of the Lord and be saved". We have to pinpoint when the "great and notable day" takes place as also the time when God's judgement is poured out on all nations. There is a time of trouble coming like there never has been or will be again and as has been discussed in other threads on the Olivet discourse, it cannot be said the destruction that came on Jerusalem in AD70 was anything like the scale of this one-off event which will occur.

There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the "last days" would last for 2000+ years. That doesn't make any sense. It destroys the meaning of words, like saying "soon" means "2000 years."

And neither does the Bible say that people could not continue to call on the name of the Lord for salvation after the coming of the Day of the Lord.

The destruction of Jerusalem fits the description of an event that was unlike anything that came before. It was typical biblical hyperbole. Josephus described it that way. Compare his words (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-pref.htm) with those of Christ:

Josephus: The war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of;

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It would be an error to take those words in an absolute sense since that would contradict the event of Noah's Flood, which was certainly greater than anything predicted concerning the last days. And besides, the Bible describes other events with similar language. Consider these descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC:

Daniel 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 5:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. 9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

And similar language is used to describe the plagues upon Egypt:

Exodus 11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

It would be folly to attempt to force a futurist interpretation by appealing to the hyperbole while ignoring all the contradictions created by that interpretation.




Likewise, Christ predicted his coming in power to judge Jerusalem would happen during the lifetimes of his first century audience, and history confirms that's what happened.
Vengeance belongs to God, it was God who brought the destruction on Jerusalem and will judge the nations in the time to come. Jesus is coming back with power to reign on earth and rule in righteousness. His coming (return) will be an event that will not be done in secret but will take the world by surprise just as the first flash of lightening visible lights up the whole of the sky and startles us when we see it.

The Bible is perfectly clear that the "coming of the son of man" would happen in conjunction with the destruction of the Temple. It is therefore past.




So the only questions concern some aspects of the prophecies that were stated in figurative language. Any attempt to force them into a yet future fulfillment destroys the integrity of Scripture. Thus, there are only two choices - 1) Interpret the problematic passages to fit with the first century fulfillment, or 2) Accept that the biblical eschatology is logically incoherent. A review of all the attempts to make Futurism work leaves no other alternative in my estimation.
It is a false statement to say that "future fulfillment destroys the integrity if Scripture". That is your opinion and I have a different opinion and I am not forcing anything or leaving anything out.
Are you saying that the splitting in two of the Mount of Olives that I have asked about is figurative? We are not talking of a figurative hill (imo) as the hill is named and is a physical place. The Mount of Olives has never split in two and the prophecy says it will. Please answer this point.

There is no truer statement than that "future fulfillment destroys the integrity if Scripture". It is not just "my opinion." I've proven that a thousand times over. In order to force a future fulfillment, the integrity of the Olivet Discourse must be utterly destroyed. My statement stands. I have given proof, and our conversation with Twospirits confirms it since I exposed the fundamental contradiction in his assertions and proved that he had to contradict himself to destroy the unity of the Olivet Discourse. I proved this in Post #3 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3008-The-quot-Already-Not-Yet-quot-Interpretation-of-Eschatology&p=43310#post43310) in the Already/Not Yet thread and no one as yet been able to show any error in my argument.

We know that Zech 14 is figurative because it speaks of Jewish sacrifices which are no longer practiced and never will be under the auspices of God (from a biblical perspective). It is interesting how adamantly you insist on figurative interpretations when it suits your purposes, and then refuse in other cases. The reason you gave is inconsistent. Satan is given a name, yet you do not take that to imply that he is literal. Therefore, you cannot use that as a justification for taking the reference to the Mount of Olives as literal.




Now concerning Zechariah 14 - we know that is figurative because it refers to sacrifices which ended with the Old Covenant in the first century and which will never be restarted since Christ was the final sacrifice:
Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


Another statement which is your opinion which I do not share. I already pointed out your mistake when you referred to Zechariah and people go up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Tabernacles. In 14:21 we have the word sacrifice, but it is a mistake to automatically think this is referring to a sacrifice for sin. If you look back to the time of Moses, then a sacrifice could be made as a peace offering and a sacrifice could be made as a voluntary offering. None of these just mentioned have anything to do with the sacrifice for sin.

That's just special pleading. You are looking for reasons to interpret Zech 14 literally because it suits your purposes. If it didn't, you would look for reason to take it figuratively. In neither case could you use Zech 14 as proof of anything because it does not cohere with the "Big Picture" established by many mutually confirming verses. This exposes the fundamental error of Futurism. You begin with obscure and ambiguous passages rather than the main and plain things that are confirmed by many verses. That allows you to make up whatever doctrines you want. It is the path of error. The only legitimate way to interpret the Bible is to begin with the main and plain things that are well established. This makes it very simple. For example: John the Baptist fulfilled both the prophecies of the Elijah who was to come. This coheres perfectly with Christ's prediction of the destruction of the Temple which was fulfilled in 70 AD which happened to "this generation" exactly as predicted.



As you should keep in mind, "this generation" is used on more than one occasion and in each occasion the time frame is different. "This generation" relates to the time frame of when Jesus was speaking about.

Not true. The phrase "this generation" means exactly what it says - the generation to whom Christ was speaking. There is absolutely no ambiguity here. Futurists must destroy the meaning of words to force their doctrines upon the Bible.



We have the advantage of hindsight, but there have been Bible Scholars in the mid-1800s who believed from their understanding of God's word that Israel had to be re-established as a nation although how to determine the precise date was not know and any date was likely to be wrong.
The return of the Jews beginning in 1878 and the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a very significant date. Why have you left out that a generation can be 70 years. 1878 to 1948 is 70 years and 1948 to 2018 is 70 years; this ought to make us think that the return of Christ is not too far away.

I left out 70 years for the same reason I left out the possibility of 120 years. I wasn't trying to list all their errors, that would take forever. But note - Futurists will be able to continue in this error at least until the year 2087 = 1967 + 120! And when that comes and goes, they'll just make up more excuses to continue the game. And there will be many that will be predicting the "end" for each and every one of those years! It strikes me as utterly delusional. They have a 2000 year record of perfect error. A 2000 year record of perfect error! Yet they persist in repeating the same error over and over and over again. It truly looks like utter madness to me.



1967 was a significant date in that I think it shows the beginning of the end in which Gentile times will come to an end. Jerusalem is still under threat even though the Jews took back the old quarter of Jerusalem and for the first time came under the complete control of the Jews. Jerusalem will come under siege again as the nations gather in Israel at the same time as God defeats those armies that come into the land and God says he will destroy them with hail stones; so let's wait and see.
The prophecies relating to the Messiah have not been completed. The Jews by enlarge still do not recognize Jesus as God's Son. The Jews have not called upon God as in the time when they cried to God and God delivered them from bondage in Egypt. They have to cry to God once more when they are in a position of no-way out and only God can save them. That is when Jesus comes as their Messiah and they will recognize him. The time of healing still has to come for the nation of Israel.
Events taking place in the Middle East now are pointing to these prophecies still remaining to be fulfillfed. There are too many world-wide factors to be ignored that are leading up to a "time of trouble like there never has been of will be again".

All the best

David

The Jews most certainly believed on Messiah when he came in the first century. You are mistaking the children of the flesh for the children of the promise. God never promised anything about saving carnal Israel. This is the most fundamental Futurist error that gives birth to ten thousand other errors. It is a failure to understand the most basic teaching of the NT ... or so it seems to me. :winking0071:

Great chatting,

Richard

[sylvius]

The Bible is perfectly clear that the "coming of the son of man" would happen in conjunction with the destruction of the Temple. It is therefore past. :eek:

Matthew 24:29-31,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Seemingly something not to be seen with the physical eye....

http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/24


The answer to the question of Mt 24:3b “What will be the sign of your coming?” Immediately after…those days: the shortening of time between the preceding tribulation and the parousia has been explained as Matthew’s use of a supposed device of Old Testament prophecy whereby certainty that a predicted event will occur is expressed by depicting it as imminent. While it is questionable that that is an acceptable understanding of the Old Testament predictions, it may be applicable here, for Matthew knew that the parousia had not come immediately after the fall of Jerusalem, and it is unlikely that he is attributing a mistaken calculation of time to Jesus. The sun…be shaken: cf. Is 13:10, 13.

"coming", Greek: ἐρχόμενον

cf. Revelation 1:8, Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

it is infinitive, i.e. he is always coming, always near, even in a hurry like the almond -- that's why: γρηγορεῖτε.

[sylvius]

The phrase "this generation" means exactly what it says - the generation to whom Christ was speaking.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples, privately, after Mark even only to the inner circle of his disciples.

[L67]

I understand Preterists believe all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by the end of the 1st century. Do preterists believe all Bible prophecy has been completed? Do some Preterists think that not all Bible prophecy was fulfilled or that some prophecies might have failed?

I came across a website claiming that there are many failed prophecies in the Bible. Here is the link. Failed Bible Prophecies (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies#Virgin_birth)

I will refute much of what this website claims when I can get around to doing it. Some prophecies reported as failed might have a future fulfillment in which case the claim of the website can easily be refuted.


One prophecy which has not been fulfilled and which I hold as a future event is that of the splitting apart of the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


The Mount of Olives is at the top end of the rift valley which runs for thousands of mikes along the eastern side of Africa. When the Mount of Olives splits and the topography of the area is changed, will this be seen as a natural occurrence caused by the shifting tectonic plates or will this be seen as the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy? When this happens will it be sufficient to recognize the return of Christ?


David


David Zechariah is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. You need to quote the rest of the relevant verses that go with the ones you posted.

14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.


Zech 14:2 lines up perfectly with Mathew 24:40 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Zech 14:2 also lines up with Luke 21-20 and Luke 19:41-44 Luke 21:20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Luke 19:41-44 1 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Zech. 14:5 lines up with Mathew 24:30-31. Mathew 24:30-31 0 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[a] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Zech 14:5 also lines up with Luke 21:21 Luke 21:21 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Zech 14:6 lines up with Mathew 24:29 Mathew 24:29 9 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[a]


How can you ignore these verses that mesh with Zechariah and point to an event beyond 70AD?

[sylvius]

"coming", Greek: ἐρχόμενον

cf. Revelation 1:8, Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.

it is infinitive, i.e. he is always coming, always near, even in a hurry like the almond -- that's why: γρηγορεῖτε.

"grègoreo" translates Hebrew "shakad" = be or keep awake; watch, be alert; be alive.

"shakeid" = almond.

Jeremiah 1:11-12,

And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: What do you see, Jeremiah? And I said, "I see a rod of an almond tree."
And the Lord said to me; You have seen well, for I hasten My word to accomplish it.


Rashi:



You have seen well: This almond tree hastens to blossom before all other trees. I, too, hasten to perform My word.


In the same way the son of man is coming, faster than light.
He surpasses time.

This also must be the sense of "eutheos", immediately, in Matthew 24:29

Another word for almond is "luz", the name of the place where Jacob dreamt of the ladder and which he renamed Bet-El= house of God.

[David M]

D


How can you ignore these verses that mesh with Zechariah and point to an event beyond 70AD?

Hello L67
without quoting all the same verses again, it appears to me that Zechariah 14 is agreeing with Matthew 24 in that both prophecies are future as other futurist interpreters agree.

For all the prophecy to apply to AD70, you need to show me in history when and how the events took place. The one event I have asked to be explained is when the Mount of Olives splits in two. If that event has happened, then I need you to show me when and if I can agree the evidence, then that will influence how I should interpret these prophecies.

I look forward to your explanation.


David

[David M]

Good morning David, :tea:

I agree that some of the events in Acts were future relative to the time the were recorded. The only question is "how long in the future?". The Bible clearly says less than a "generation" and that coheres with all the evidence. John the Baptists fulfilled both prophecies of the "Elijah who was to come." He was the forerunner of Messiah and he warned of the soon coming "great and terrible day of the Lord" when Jerusalem would be finally judged in 70 AD.
Hello Richard
Why must you associate the "great and terrible day of the Lord" with AD70 and the destruction of the temple only. God's judgements are to be poured out on all nations and, as far as I know, all nations were not included in the destruction of Jerusalem and the the temple in AD70.



There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the "last days" would last for 2000+ years. That doesn't make any sense. It destroys the meaning of words, like saying "soon" means "2000 years." Soon can apply to these things beginning like the times of the Gentiles would beging shortly just as the revelation given to John would begin to happen shortly. There is a difference to something beginning to happen shortly and the completion of the event to have taken place in a short interval of time.


And neither does the Bible say that people could not continue to call on the name of the Lord for salvation after the coming of the Day of the Lord.
When does man's rule come to an end? you mean this present evil and destruction taking place in the earth is going to go on for ever? If not when and how will the change take place?


The destruction of Jerusalem fits the description of an event that was unlike anything that came before. It was typical biblical hyperbole. Josephus described it that way. Compare his words (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-pref.htm) with those of Christ:

Josephus: The war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of;

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It would be an error to take those words in an absolute sense since that would contradict the event of Noah's Flood, which was certainly greater than anything predicted concerning the last days. And besides, the Bible describes other events with similar language. Consider these descriptions of the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC:
God has promised not to flood the earth again, and also he has warned us of the judgements to come which will not be in the form of a flood but will come with other destructive natural forces, hence earthquakes, hailstones, fire and all manner of means except flooding.


Daniel 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
I agree that the worst destruction might have already taken place regarding Jerusalem and that it might never remain desolate as it did from mid the second century AD. We are to think of the judgements that will come on all nations including those nations not involved at the time of AD70 and those which will come against Jerusalem, in the future which from what we can see happening in the Middle East makes this possible very soon.


Ezekiel 5:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. 9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

And similar language is used to describe the plagues upon Egypt:

Exodus 11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

It would be folly to attempt to force a futurist interpretation by appealing to the hyperbole while ignoring all the contradictions created by that interpretation.
It is also folly to take expressions applying to Egypt and apply the same to another country and time. Has Egypt had cause to cry out as they did when all their first-born were killed?



The Bible is perfectly clear that the "coming of the son of man" would happen in conjunction with the destruction of the Temple. It is therefore past.
If it was so clear, I would not be arguing with you.



There is no truer statement than that "future fulfillment destroys the integrity if Scripture". It is not just "my opinion." I've proven that a thousand times over. In order to force a future fulfillment, the integrity of the Olivet Discourse must be utterly destroyed. My statement stands. I have given proof, and our conversation with Twospirits confirms it since I exposed the fundamental contradiction in his assertions and proved that he had to contradict himself to destroy the unity of the Olivet Discourse. I proved this in Post #3 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3008-The-quot-Already-Not-Yet-quot-Interpretation-of-Eschatology&p=43310#post43310) in the Already/Not Yet thread and no one as yet been able to show any error in my argument.
Not convincing to you and not being able to refute what you have written are two entirely different things. As long as you remain fixed on what you have concluded, then I understand your position, which I do not share.


We know that Zech 14 is figurative because it speaks of Jewish sacrifices which are no longer practiced and never will be under the auspices of God (from a biblical perspective). It is interesting how adamantly you insist on figurative interpretations when it suits your purposes, and then refuse in other cases. The reason you gave is inconsistent. Satan is given a name, yet you do not take that to imply that he is literal. Therefore, you cannot use that as a justification for taking the reference to the Mount of Olives as literal.
I am not taking Zechariah as figurative. It clearly says what will happen. There is nothing figurative about keeping the feast of Tabernacles and the Mount of Olives splitting in two and the law going forth from Jerusalem. If these are figurative, then what are they referring to? What does the splitting of the Mount of Olives in two represent? Why should the Mount split in two and the topography of the area be changed?


That's just special pleading. You are looking for reasons to interpret Zech 14 literally because it suits your purposes. If it didn't, you would look for reason to take it figuratively. In neither case could you use Zech 14 as proof of anything because it does not cohere with the "Big Picture" established by many mutually confirming verses. This exposes the fundamental error of Futurism. You begin with obscure and ambiguous passages rather than the main and plain things that are confirmed by many verses. That allows you to make up whatever doctrines you want. It is the path of error. The only legitimate way to interpret the Bible is to begin with the main and plain things that are well established. This makes it very simple. For example: John the Baptist fulfilled both the prophecies of the Elijah who was to come. This coheres perfectly with Christ's prediction of the destruction of the Temple which was fulfilled in 70 AD which happened to "this generation" exactly as predicted.
I am waiting for your explanation of what the Mount of Olives splitting in two is figurative of. If it was figurative, the specific name and location need not have been given. I will get verses to agree just as you do the same, in ways it suits you. I am not ignoring verses.



Not true. The phrase "this generation" means exactly what it says - the generation to whom Christ was speaking. There is absolutely no ambiguity here. Futurists must destroy the meaning of words to force their doctrines upon the Bible.
We have to continue to disagree and I consider Jesus says "this generation" in the parable of the fig tree. I have given my explanation of this parable, what is your explanation of the parable?



I left out 70 years for the same reason I left out the possibility of 120 years. I wasn't trying to list all their errors, that would take forever. But note - Futurists will be able to continue in this error at least until the year 2087 = 1967 + 120! And when that comes and goes, they'll just make up more excuses to continue the game. And there will be many that will be predicting the "end" for each and every one of those years! It strikes me as utterly delusional. They have a 2000 year record of perfect error. A 2000 year record of perfect error! Yet they persist in repeating the same error over and over and over again. It truly looks like utter madness to me.
Just as there are always that will say; (2 Peter 3:4)Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
there will be those who say; "Jesus will not return". I won't be alive in 2087, so if that is the last date you can predict, then after that date if I was alive, I might have to agree with you. Unless God intervenes, the earth could be totally destroyed by 2087.


The Jews most certainly believed on Messiah when he came in the first century. You are mistaking the children of the flesh for the children of the promise. God never promised anything about saving carnal Israel. This is the most fundamental Futurist error that gives birth to ten thousand other errors. It is a failure to understand the most basic teaching of the NT ... or so it seems to me. :winking0071:
I have shown you where God has given Israel and unconditional promise. This is in the Old Testament and God is speaking to Israel as a nation. It is in the purpose of God to keep Israel as a nation until all is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is restored and then there will only be one nation, one language etc.
Here is another prophecy besides that of Ezekiel describing the unconditional promise to the nation of Israel.
Jeremiah 32
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

God is still fulfilling this promise in that these things are on going. God has not finished with the evil that will come on Israel. Israel has enemies and those enemies must first be destroyed before Israel receives the fullness of all the good God has promised and that will also include the Gentiles who are grafted into spiritual Israel and in the kingdom of God there will be the integration of all acceptable people that come from those in Israel who believe and those who are Gentiles so that there is one people.


All the best

David

[sylvius]

"grègoreo" translates Hebrew "shakad" = be or keep awake; watch, be alert; be alive.

"shakeid" = almond.

Jeremiah 1:11-12,

And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: What do you see, Jeremiah? And I said, "I see a rod of an almond tree."
And the Lord said to me; You have seen well, for I hasten My word to accomplish it.



Rashi:

You have seen well: This almond tree hastens to blossom before all other trees. I, too, hasten to perform My word.



In the same way the son of man is coming, faster than light.
He surpasses time.

This also must be the sense of "eutheos", immediately, in Matthew 24:29

Another word for almond is "luz", the name of the place where Jacob dreamt of the ladder and which he renamed Bet-El= house of God.

The same notion is in the Yiddish name Menachem Mendel,

"Mendel" is Yiddish for almond,
German: "Mandel"

Dutch "amandel" (in which you can recognize "almond"


Menachem = Comforter,

a name of the Messiah
and also name of Noach.

Noach being the son of Adam (Genesis 5, where only in the case of Lamech there is said: "and he fathered a son". And besides that was Noach the only one of them to be born after Adam's death.)

[L67]

Hello L67
without quoting all the same verses again, it appears to me that Zechariah 14 is agreeing with Matthew 24 in that both prophecies are future as other futurist interpreters agree.

For all the prophecy to apply to AD70, you need to show me in history when and how the events took place. The one event I have asked to be explained is when the Mount of Olives splits in two. If that event has happened, then I need you to show me when and if I can agree the evidence, then that will influence how I should interpret these prophecies.

I look forward to your explanation.


David



The verses you are taking literally are only figurative expressions. The OT was filled with figurative speech. Numerous times in the Bible we read of God coming down to meet with his people that is associated with mountains and great things happening. Heres a few examples.

Nehemiah 9:13
13 “You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good.

Psalm 144:5
5 Part your heavens, Lord, and come down;
touch the mountains, so that they smoke.

Isaiah 31:4

4 This is what the Lord says to me:

“As a lion growls,
a great lion over its prey—
and though a whole band of shepherds
is called together against it,
it is not frightened by their shouts
or disturbed by their clamor—
so the Lord Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

Isaiah 64:1-2
64 [a]Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down,
That the mountains might quake at Your presence—
2 [b]As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!3 For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.

Micah 1:3-4


3 Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.

See the pattern yet? It's not literal David. You can say the prophecy of Zechariah was fulfilled when Jesus stood on the mount of olives when he came the first time. Look at Micah. It mentions mountains melting and valleys splitting apart, yet Micah's prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrians captured Samaria in 721-722BC.

Go back through Zechariah and see how it deals with the last days from Jesus birth and ministry, to his crucifixion, burial and resurrection. There are allusions all the way through here to the new Jerusalem and the new temple that would be built in those days. It references the restoration from captivity, and the days the Messiah would come after the return from captivity. Go through there and look how many times " in that day" used. "In that day" references the days of the Messiah. Also, the use of "in that day" ties all the events together. To think Zechariah 14 speaks to a future date is to completely ignore everything else he prophesied about.

Lastly those verses in no way point to a future date beyond 70AD. The whole flow of the Bible from OT to NT points to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. There is overwhelming evidence throughout the NT that point to the destruction of Jerusalem. That is why the language in the NT was to create a sense of urgency as to when the events would take place. Such as "this generation", " the time is at hand", etc. The first century Christians used these signs as a trigger when they should be ready to flee the city of Jerusalem when the Roman armies surrounded the city in 70 AD.

Josephus confirmed the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 in the War of the Jews.

[David M]

The verses you are taking literally are only figurative expressions. The OT was filled with figurative speech. Numerous times in the Bible we read of God coming down to meet with his people that is associated with mountains and great things happening. Heres a few examples.

Nehemiah 9:13
13 “You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good.

Psalm 144:5
5 Part your heavens, Lord, and come down;
touch the mountains, so that they smoke.

Isaiah 31:4

4 This is what the Lord says to me:

“As a lion growls,
a great lion over its prey—
and though a whole band of shepherds
is called together against it,
it is not frightened by their shouts
or disturbed by their clamor—
so the Lord Almighty will come down
to do battle on Mount Zion and on its heights.

Isaiah 64:1-2
64 [a]Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down,
That the mountains might quake at Your presence—
2 [b]As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!3 For when you did awesome things that we did not expect,
you came down, and the mountains trembled before you.

Micah 1:3-4


3 Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.

See the pattern yet? It's not literal David. You can say the prophecy of Zechariah was fulfilled when Jesus stood on the mount of olives when he came the first time. Look at Micah. It mentions mountains melting and valleys splitting apart, yet Micah's prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrians captured Samaria in 721-722BC.

Go back through Zechariah and see how it deals with the last days from Jesus birth and ministry, to his crucifixion, burial and resurrection. There are allusions all the way through here to the new Jerusalem and the new temple that would be built in those days. It references the restoration from captivity, and the days the Messiah would come after the return from captivity. Go through there and look how many times " in that day" used. "In that day" references the days of the Messiah. Also, the use of "in that day" ties all the events together. To think Zechariah 14 speaks to a future date is to completely ignore everything else he prophesied about.

Lastly those verses in no way point to a future date beyond 70AD. The whole flow of the Bible from OT to NT points to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. There is overwhelming evidence throughout the NT that point to the destruction of Jerusalem. That is why the language in the NT was to create a sense of urgency as to when the events would take place. Such as "this generation", " the time is at hand", etc. The first century Christians used these signs as a trigger when they should be ready to flee the city of Jerusalem when the Roman armies surrounded the city in 70 AD.

Josephus confirmed the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 in the War of the Jews.

Hello L67
If it is all allusion, then it must allude to something and that is what I want to know. What does the splitting of the Mount of Olives alludes to? It is not sufficient to quote a number of verses and say they are figurative or they allude to something. You must tell me what we are to understand from the figurative language. We understand the figurative language of Daniel's prophecies even if we do not have all the historical facts correct. Jesus explains the parables, so we know what they mean. If language is figurative, like the beast of Daniel or Revelation, or even when a literal place like Babylon is mentioned within figurative language, we know Babylon is representative of something. It should be obvious when a literal place is mentioned when the context is obviously not figurative and is more obviously literal.

Without an explanation from you, I maintain that since the Mount is referred to by name (the Mount of Olives), that will be the mount which will literally split in two when Jesus comes to Jerusalem and stands on the mount.

The Messiah did not come to Jews as they expected him to come when he was with them and when in not recognizing him as their Messiah and king of the Jews they crucified him. Jesus will return as their Messiah to save them when the nation of Israel cries to God to deliver them from the utter destruction that will loom upon them and which we can see the signs of that happening. The Jews need to cry to God as they did in Egypt and God delivered them.

The Jews did not cry out in the time of AD70 and in fact God had given the Jews a means of escape and those who recognized what was happening had time to escape when the Roman armies withdraw for a short time before coming back to destroy the city and the temple. The final diaspora of the Jews did not take place until AD132 the time they were kicked out of Jerusalem and they were kicked out of the land and the land then became desolate.


David