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duxrow
12-20-2012, 11:08 AM
The Solomon Decision Bob Smith, Foreman AR, 11/94
:pop2:
Solomon's Decision: To cut the babe in half!
We're horrified at such a gross incision..
At first we think: "How could he!" ?
It's a blow below the belt..
But second thoughts of the conclusion
reveals how wisdom's dealt.

The Mother's true reaction: To let the baby live!
Even if the care of him, wasn't hers to give..
And maybe she could visit, or see him now and then,
Especially when she told him that she had known him when...

Solomon's Decision: To cut the babe in half!
Sheep & Goats no longer such a blend..
Mankind separated like the wheat & chaff;
By the special Sword of Truth whom God did send!

In the devil's territory...yet we're not alone,
Surrounded by the Tares, but soon we're going home.
One mother was the real one; the other was a liar...
Now that we are full grown, get ready for the fire!


The Godly wisdom given to Solomon supports the allegory of how mankind is both wheat and tare's, and is being raised in the devil's territory.

L67
12-20-2012, 12:19 PM
The Solomon Decision Bob Smith, Foreman AR, 11/94
:pop2:
Solomon's Decision: To cut the babe in half!
We're horrified at such a gross incision..
At first we think: "How could he!" ?
It's a blow below the belt..
But second thoughts of the conclusion
reveals how wisdom's dealt.

The Mother's true reaction: To let the baby live!
Even if the care of him, wasn't hers to give..
And maybe she could visit, or see him now and then,
Especially when she told him that she had known him when...

Solomon's Decision: To cut the babe in half!
Sheep & Goats no longer such a blend..
Mankind separated like the wheat & chaff;
By the special Sword of Truth whom God did send!

In the devil's territory...yet we're not alone,
Surrounded by the Tares, but soon we're going home.
One mother was the real one; the other was a liar...
Now that we are full grown, get ready for the fire!


The Godly wisdom given to Solomon supports the allegory of how mankind is both wheat and tare's, and is being raised in the devil's territory.

How can satan rule the earth? Matthew 28:18-20 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-20-2012, 01:20 PM
How can satan rule the earth? Matthew 28:18-20 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

This doesn't seem to imply any new problem. The same problem existed before God gave Jesus "all authority" because God himself always had "all authority." Therefore, when the Bible speaks of Satan as being the "god of this world" it can be interpreted to mean only that he has been allowed by God to have a limited range of authority over the "kingdoms of this world" -
Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

This is confirmed in Revelation which says:
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I think it is very important not to focus on apparent contradictions that are easily solved since that makes it seem like you are looking for anything to prove the Bible false and that gives believers reason to reject your other arguments which expose real contradictions.

duxrow
12-20-2012, 03:42 PM
:applause:
Appreciate the block, Richard. For myself, would point to Rev12 where the Genesis Snake in the grass is FINALLY ID'd as Satan, dragon, accuser of the brethren, devil, etc.
Many metaphors for the "god of this world" who blinds the minds and reigns by deception, and by challenging our faith and beliefs of God's Word.

Many metaphors also for Jesus, for Salvation, for the Holy Ghost, etc. :thumb:

Richard Amiel McGough
12-20-2012, 06:00 PM
:applause:
Appreciate the block, Richard. For myself, would point to Rev12 where the Genesis Snake in the grass is FINALLY ID'd as Satan, dragon, accuser of the brethren, devil, etc.
Many metaphors for the "god of this world" who blinds the minds and reigns by deception, and by challenging our faith and beliefs of God's Word.

Many metaphors also for Jesus, for Salvation, for the Holy Ghost, etc. :thumb:

I try to be fair my friend. Truth is the only goal worth pursuing.

L67
12-20-2012, 06:52 PM
This doesn't seem to imply any new problem. The same problem existed before God gave Jesus "all authority" because God himself always had "all authority." Therefore, when the Bible speaks of Satan as being the "god of this world" it can be interpreted to mean only that he has been allowed by God to have a limited range of authority over the "kingdoms of this world" -
Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

This is confirmed in Revelation which says:
Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I think it is very important not to focus on apparent contradictions that are easily solved since that makes it seem like you are looking for anything to prove the Bible false and that gives believers reason to reject your other arguments which expose real contradictions.

I am answering your last point first.

You make a valid point. But my intentions were not to just post something just to prove the Bible false. I admit it looks that way but it was laziness on my part for not clarifying my argument. Which I will do below.

I agree with your first statement that God always had all authority. But nowhere in the OT was satan declared god of this world. That came in the NT. I challenge you to show me one verse that mentions such a thing. Satan was used as a "tool' for Gods plan in the OT but he was never god of this world.


2 Corinthians 4:4

4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Ok, we see satan is the god of this world in the NT.

But look at what the Bible says about Jesus death. Hebrews 2:14-15 4 Therefore, since the children share in [a]flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Now we see that the death of Jesus rendered the devil powerless.

John 12:31-33 Confirms Jesus death rendered the devil powerless. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

1 John 3:7-8 backs this up. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Luke 10:18-20 18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”


And after Jesus died and was resurrected he said in Matthew 28:18-20 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.



The NT called satan the god of this world but Jesus defeated him. If I am in error anywhere , then please show me and I will gladly admit my wrong doing.

duxrow
12-21-2012, 07:49 AM
:blah:
Hi L67 -- some quick thoughts..

The New Testament supercedes and clarifies the OT. The Jews were a school teacher to bring us to Christ. Gal 3:24. Those things were "for our learning", Rom15:4. The Jews were fighting flesh/blood enemies and knew little of satan.

Satan STILL goes around "as a roaring lion", 1Pet5:8, whether in New York or Mayberry, or Sin City, imitating the REAL 'lion of Judah' --
so, if we aren't "IN HIM' it's like we've strayed off the game-refuge and subject to attack. :thumb:

L67
12-21-2012, 08:27 AM
:blah:
Hi L67 -- some quick thoughts..

The New Testament supercedes and clarifies the OT. The Jews were a school teacher to bring us to Christ. Gal 3:24. Those things were "for our learning", Rom15:4. The Jews were fighting flesh/blood enemies and knew little of satan.

Satan STILL goes around "as a roaring lion", 1Pet5:8, whether in New York or Mayberry, or Sin City, imitating the REAL 'lion of Judah' --
so, if we aren't "IN HIM' it's like we've strayed off the game-refuge and subject to attack. :thumb:

You didn't address anything I even said.

The title of this thread was Satan: god of this world. And then you referenced the Solomon decision. That is erroneous. Satan is not seen as an enemy of God, a rebel opposed to the Kingdom of God on every level, like he is portrayed in the New Testament. Not one Old Testament verse warns us of Satan's evil influence in our hearts or minds, much less his rebellious rule over the entire fallen world. That all came in the NT. Satan in Hebrew simply means "the adversary". It's not even the same being as described in the NT. Ironically Moses, David, Abraham and Solomon never mention satan even once.

Like I said earlier he was god of this world in the NT. But the Bible plainly states that Jesus defeated him. So how can he still be god of this world?

duxrow
12-21-2012, 09:09 AM
You didn't address anything I even said.
What you said made me think you didn't understand the rhyme.The title of this thread was Satan: god of this world. And then you referenced the Solomon decision. That is erroneous. Satan is not seen as an enemy of God, a rebel opposed to the Kingdom of God on every level, like he is portrayed in the New Testament. Not one Old Testament verse warns us of Satan's evil influence in our hearts or minds, much less his rebellious rule over the entire fallen world. That all came in the NT. Satan in Hebrew simply means "the adversary". It's not even the same being as described in the NT. Ironically Moses, David, Abraham and Solomon never mention satan even once.

Like I said earlier he was god of this world in the NT. But the Bible plainly states that Jesus defeated him. So how can he still be god of this world?

:peep: Satan is the same guy as the serpent in the garden of Eden -- he's been here on Planet Earth the whole time, (couple side-trips maybe..) and it wasn't until Jesus came and whipped him, that we knew what we were really up against. Read Eph6 about the Armor of God (like the kind David was wearing when he defeated Goliath). Our spiritual enemy is not Iran or Mexico, but wrong thinking about the Word of God! :thumb:

L67
12-21-2012, 09:28 AM
:peep: Satan is the same guy as the serpent in the garden of Eden -- he's been here on Planet Earth the whole time, (couple side-trips maybe..) and it wasn't until Jesus came and whipped him, that we knew what we were really up against. Read Eph6 about the Armor of God (like the kind David was wearing when he defeated Goliath). Our spiritual enemy is not Iran or Mexico, but wrong thinking about the Word of God! :thumb:

Sorry that tells you nothing of who Satan is. Genesis tells you nothing about Satan. Not one word. Revelation is in the NT and was written long after Genesis. So anyone can say after the fact that it was Satan. The NT Satan is completely different from the OT.

He WAS on this earth but Jesus defeated him. Therefore he isn't god of this world anymore. He isn't even a spiritual enemy anymore. Jesus second coming already happened. So it's quite obvious Satan is irrelevant according to the Bible.

duxrow
12-21-2012, 09:40 AM
:rolleyes:
Maybe you think he wasn't involved with Adam Lanza last Fri., but personally I'm sure of it. Satan is "the wicked one", and hasn't yet gone into the Lake of Fire.

1John3:12 KJV "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous".

What version of the Bible are you using?

L67
12-21-2012, 09:54 AM
:rolleyes:
Maybe you think he wasn't involved with Adam Lanza last Fri., but personally I'm sure of it. Satan is "the wicked one", and hasn't yet gone into the Lake of Fire.

1John3:12 KJV "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous".

What version of the Bible are you using?


No I don't think we was involved with Adam Lanza. You think you are personally sure of it but you are mistaken. The Bible says otherwise.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 1:1-3 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Do you see that? The devil knows his time is short. That is why when Jesus died Satan was defeated. That is a the sole reason Jesus died on the cross was to destroy the works of the devil. Jesus even said so himself. And these verses coincides with every other time Jesus said he would return in the first century. Therefore Satan has nothing to do with this world anymore.

duxrow
12-21-2012, 10:12 AM
:arghh:
Devil's time is short -- we Agree!

1Chr21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel". Similar to how Satan provoked Lanza to kill the children.
Satan knows his days are numbered and is manic possessed about the Lake of Fire. hah.:break:

Richard Amiel McGough
12-21-2012, 10:40 AM
:rolleyes:
Maybe you think he wasn't involved with Adam Lanza last Fri., but personally I'm sure of it. Satan is "the wicked one", and hasn't yet gone into the Lake of Fire.

1John3:12 KJV "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous".

What version of the Bible are you using?

The shootings are best understood as the result of a deranged mind, probably the result of a chemical imbalance. I think it is a big mistake to think that Satan was involved with Adam Lanza. That worldview makes no sense at all and is based on the same fallacious mythology that says disease was caused by demons when in fact disease is cause by germs, bacteria, and so forth.

I find it fascinating that Christians deny the bible is filled with ancient mythology even as they use that same mythology to explain modern events. What's next, is epilepsy explained by demon possession?

duxrow
12-21-2012, 11:06 AM
The shootings are best understood as the result of a deranged mind, probably the result of a chemical imbalance. I think it is a big mistake to think that Satan was involved with Adam Lanza. That worldview makes no sense at all and is based on the same fallacious mythology that says disease was caused by demons when in fact disease is cause by germs, bacteria, and so forth.
I find it fascinating that Christians deny the bible is filled with ancient mythology even as they use that same mythology to explain modern events. What's next, is epilepsy explained by demon possession?
:yes:
Sounds like what Jesus said:
Matt 17:15 - Mk 9:18 - A father appeals to Jesus on behalf of his lunatic (epileptic?) son, claiming the disciples were unable to cure him.
Jesus rebuked the devil and declared how "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting".

I sympathize with those who struggle to understand about a talking snake or jackass, :winking0071:
and I don't doubt that much prayer is required to separate myths from the same category.

Richard Amiel McGough
12-21-2012, 11:40 AM
:yes:
Sounds like what Jesus said:
Matt 17:15 - Mk 9:18 - A father appeals to Jesus on behalf of his lunatic (epileptic?) son, claiming the disciples were unable to cure him.
Jesus rebuked the devil and declared how "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting".

I sympathize with those who struggle to understand about a talking snake or jackass, :winking0071:
and I don't doubt that much prayer is required to separate myths from the same category.
So are you saying that God refuses to heal some people unless other people pray and fast with sufficient intensity? That seems like a rather odd way to run things. Would you deny your children health and welfare unless they denied themselves food and begged with sufficient intensity?

The idea that folks had to "pray and fast" to drive out certain kinds of demons sounds like it is due to their own effort, not God. But that doesn't make any sense because then their prayers would be meaningless. So Christ must be saying that God is very stubborn, and must be begged and still won't budge until people prove they mean it by denying themselves food. This reminds me of the priests of Baal who would cut themselves to try to convince their stubborn god to act on their behalf:
1 Kings 18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. 26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. 29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

Now prayer and fasting is not as extreme as cutting oneself, but they are similar in that the god will not respond unless the believers subject themselves to sufficient discomfort. Why is that?

L67
12-21-2012, 12:29 PM
:arghh:
Devil's time is short -- we Agree!

1Chr21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel". Similar to how Satan provoked Lanza to kill the children.
Satan knows his days are numbered and is manic possessed about the Lake of Fire. hah.:break:



That verse completely contradicts this verse where it was Yahweh who incited David to number Israel. 2 Samuel 24:1Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, b“Go, number Israel and Judah.

More proof you can't take the Bible seriously.

Sorry, the devils time ended long ago.

duxrow
12-21-2012, 12:45 PM
:sFi_machinegunsdual
1. Many don't know about any 'battle' -- they only know they've been hurt, and they've been told GOD either did it or didn't stop it. (*bad god!)

2. You aren't ready for the battle until or unless you've put on the Armor of Ephesians 6, because this is a spiritual battle of Words against ignorance.. Prayer is a part of it, but not the entirety, and it's a 'brethren' prayer for others, rather than a 'praying for things' that is often the case.

3. Did the Butler do it? We read the last chapter in a hoodunit to find out, and in the Bible we don't learn about the God of Love till 1John.
Different from that wicked god who suggested murder to Cain, and not the one who caused the deaths in the OT.

4. Like spiritual friction, we battle against sickness and evil in this present world, when we believe Jesus for an "abundant life" both now and in the hereafter.
That's a choice that everyone must make for themself and maybe for the best because you wouldn't be happy putting up with us Christians forever, eh? :lol:

2Sam24:l is Satan saying, and 1Chr21:1 is the LORD saying, and many today don't know the difference -- they THINK it's the Good One!:winking0071:

Richard Amiel McGough
12-21-2012, 01:05 PM
That verse completely contradicts this verse where it was Yahweh who incited David to number Israel. 2 Samuel 24:1Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, b“Go, number Israel and Judah.

More proof you can't take the Bible seriously.

Sorry, the devils time ended long ago.

Apologist assert that the verse "really means" that God used Satan to incite David to do the census.

It is quite interesting to note that God himself was "incited" by Satan to destroy Job (using the same Hebrew word):
Job 2:3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause."

So we have three curious cases:


Yahweh incited David to number Israel (1 Chr 21:1)
Satan incited David to number Israel (2 Sam 24:1)
Satan incited Yahweh to destroy Job "without cause" (Job 2:3)

The third case is particularly curious. How could an omniscient God be "incited" to do anything by a creature, especially something for which there was no reason at all?

L67
12-21-2012, 01:20 PM
:sFi_machinegunsdual


2Sam24:l is Satan saying, and 1Chr21:1 is the LORD saying, and many today don't know the difference -- they THINK it's the Good One!:winking0071:

Wrong again.


God incited David to number Israel because God was angry with David Samuel 24:1. He used Satan to do it. 1 Chr 21;1. Like I said on the first page Satan was used as a "tool" for God's plan. But it's not the Satan that we see in the NT.

The Hebrew context doesn't use the name Satan to portray the evil one. The word Satan is used to mean " the adversary". The word can be used of human kings. And in the context of these verses it is not the same person that we see in the NT.

So what your saying is false.

duxrow
12-21-2012, 01:37 PM
:mmph:
So you think there's more than one Satan? I wouldn't argue that one..

1Pet5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour".

OK, like I've been saying; We're in a battle and our Adversary goes by many names, but he's the one that 'spoke' (or used sign language?)
to Eve in the Garden. :eek:

David M
12-21-2012, 08:00 PM
Here are my thoughts on the subject of satan and the devil.

Much of the confusion about Satan and the Devil comes about by myths and taking what is written in the Bible too literally and not seeing that the words are figurative. I see Satan/Devil/Serpent as personification of that which is in man's nature/mind to oppose God and is man's "accuser".

Like Richard points out, disease and sickness were regarded as demons in the time of Jesus. Demons are understood as ordinary illnesses and diseases in this 21st century. Why not bring this same thinking to that of Satan and the Devil? The term spirit can apply to any unseen force/influence. Evil actions and thoughts are communicated from one person to another and the way evil permeates among people can be likened to an evil spirit.

Satan and the Devil can refer to many things. The titles; Satan and the Devil can apply to humans. Peter was a Satan to Jesus because Peter's good intentions were in opposition to what was the will of God.

The Serpent(Devil) in the Garden of Eden can be thought of as the thoughts that were in the mind of Eve whereby she reasoned wrongly and it was her thoughts that lead her to eat of the forbidden tree. Given that we can see that there was no outside influence affecting Eve's mind, I suggest that all instances relating to the devil and satan applying to humans is as a result of their actions stemming from the thoughts of the mind.

It was Jesus' own thoughts by which he was tempted and the story involving Satan is just simple us of personification. Jesus had natural thoughts, thoughts which were selfishness and had he acted on would not have been putting God's power (Holy Spirit) to good use in the service of his Heavenly Father. Jesus had to overcome his own internal thoughts. I suggest that all occurrences of the word "satan" and "devil" in the Bible, are thought of as personification. What is it exactly that is being personified as satan or the devil?

In the same way that we understand demons as sicknesses and diseases and have given the word demons a 21st century definition, the same should be done for satan and the devil.

To explain how Jesus defeated the devil through his death is understood by Jesus defeating all temptation that went on inside his own mind. Jesus overcame all evil thoughts which would have lead to sin and through his death, he was raised from the dead and given an incorruptible body. Jesus was made perfect. Jesus could no longer be tempted. That is how the devil was defeated and given the crushing blow. Until we are raised to eternal life and given the same incorruptible body as Jesus, we live in a corruptible body and we are prone to temptation which are the thoughts generated in our own minds. Before I understood this, I thought it strange that the devil could be so easily "sent packing", and yet we are never totally free from the devil. The devil left Jesus for a season and returned. This we understand by the different times Jesus faced temptation. The first was in the wilderness, a second was in the temptation not to go through with his death on the cross. Jesus overcame those thoughts and combated them by recalling scripture at reciting the words that were his guide. That is why, the teaching of God and the principles of God we should recall in order to overcome our own times of temptation. (James 4:7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. It is the simple process of resisting our own thoughts that are devilish and replacing them with good thoughts that are heavenly. Ideally, all our thoughts should be centered on the things that pertain to life eternal and the kingdom of God. Thinking about good things should leave us no room for thinking evil things.

This is all about developing the mind of Christ in ourselves and if we can do that, then we are assured the same victory that Jesus had over the devil that was part of the same human nature that Jesus was made of. He was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.



David

Richard Amiel McGough
12-21-2012, 09:16 PM
Here are my thoughts on the subject of satan and the devil.

Much of the confusion about Satan and the Devil comes about by myths and taking what is written in the Bible too literally and not seeing that the words are figurative. I see Satan/Devil/Serpent as personification of that which is in man's nature/mind to oppose God and is man's "accuser".

That's how the Gnostics interpreted the Bible too. I was just reading about it in Elaine Pagels excellent book "Adam, Eve, and the Serpent." Some Gnostics interpreted the serpent in the Garden as Christ. Others interpreted it as the Feminine Spirit of Wisdom. Others interpreted it as the literal Devil. Others interpreted it as symbolic of the "accuser" in man's mind. Others saw it as the Spirit (Eve) in contrast with the Soul (Adam) while others saw the same thing except with Adam and Eve reversed. There is no end to the number of creative interpretations possible and there is no way to tell which interpretation, if any, is correct or even if God (assuming he inspired it) intended only one interpretation or if it was intended as a tool to awaken unique spiritual insights in each reader. How is anyone supposed to know which is right and which is wrong? Maybe Jesus is just a symbol of my soul, and the Bible is a book that reveals myself to myself to bring me to enlightenment. Why not?

David M
12-22-2012, 05:11 AM
That's how the Gnostics interpreted the Bible too. I was just reading about it in Elaine Pagels excellent book "Adam, Eve, and the Serpent." Some Gnostics interpreted the serpent in the Garden as Christ. Others interpreted it as the Feminine Spirit of Wisdom. Others interpreted it as the literal Devil. Others interpreted it as symbolic of the "accuser" in man's mind. Others saw it as the Spirit (Eve) in contrast with the Soul (Adam) while others saw the same thing except with Adam and Eve reversed. There is no end to the number of creative interpretations possible and there is no way to tell which interpretation, if any, is correct or even if God (assuming he inspired it) intended only one interpretation or if it was intended as a tool to awaken unique spiritual insights in each reader. How is anyone supposed to know which is right and which is wrong? Maybe Jesus is just a symbol of my soul, and the Bible is a book that reveals myself to myself to bring me to enlightenment. Why not?

Hello Richard

Why do you not state your own opinion having reasoned these things out for yourself? What do you think Satan or the Devil is? You say you are a truth seeker, but you shy away from forming your own opinion of the truth and giving us your reasons. You present lots of other ideas as an excuse not to believe anything? Maybe the false doctrines you sincerely believed in and you have now come to reject is somehow causing a psychological problem that is making you not commit to anything. You stick to logic and fact and want proof, but are afraid of accepting anything in the Bible other than at face value. I thought there was a glimmer of hope that you might reason these things out. I was pleased when I read you saying "heaven" can refer to the "political heavens". A point of agreement. I do not know why you do not continue to reason along those lines, and instead switch phrases like "war in heaven" to mean God's Heaven. This is why you appear to switch your position and appear to be inconsistent. The mere fact I say this, will probably incite you to object and make retaliatory remarks. It is not just me that notices you appear to switch your position. Maybe it is a case of misunderstanding in some cases, but not in every case.

I am trying to get to the truth, but you keep throwing up obstacles and being dismissive of my reasoning. If you think "you might be right", why not pursue my reasoning further. You have not presented any conclusive proof to show that God does not exist. Things like not answering your prayers in not a conclusive proof. Unless, you have conclusive proof, then why not pursue lines of thought that might lead to the truth. If you remove all the parts of the Bible in which you think there is sexism and abominable acts of God, then just concentrate on the good parts of the Bible to get to the truth of what it is saying. You do not have to believe it, you just have to get to a true understanding. Just as you have reasons for rejecting many ideas, so you must have reasons why you accept some. A process of elimination might be one way of not regurgitating the same old arguments.


If you dismiss demons as spirit beings and say that demons are just a way of referring to a sickness that in those ancient days could not be explained in medical terms as we can do today, why not take the same approach to understanding what Satan or the Devil is?

Not all interpretations can be right but some can be more right than others and some can easily be rejected. You must have your reasons for rejecting some, and favoring others. I have come to the conclusion, there is no fallen angel or spiritual being that is Satan. I accept personification and that some people think of Satan as real spiritual person because they take some things at face value. It does not matter that I do not believe there is a spiritual being that is a fallen Angel. I trust God will not reject me for thinking He is more in control of His Angels than other people think He is.

It is more important a person takes responsibility for their own failings. If they believe in a personal devil, and God created a devil to test them, then I will accept that as a simple way for them to understand the manifestation of the cause of sin. If all temptation and the thoughts of sin leading to actual sin stem from our own mind, then it makes no difference that Satan does not exist as a real person. The essential belief is to believe in God and His Son; we do not have to believe in Satan or the Devil. I do not believe Satan is a fallen Angel of God and I do not think that would be a reason for God rejecting me.

David

L67
12-22-2012, 02:33 PM
:mmph:
So you think there's more than one Satan? I wouldn't argue that one..

1Pet5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour".

OK, like I've been saying; We're in a battle and our Adversary goes by many names, but he's the one that 'spoke' (or used sign language?)
to Eve in the Garden. :eek:

No I don't think that. What I was referring to when I said that was what I said on page one. Satan is not seen as an enemy of God, a rebel opposed to the Kingdom of God on every level, like he is portrayed in the New Testament. Not one Old Testament verse warns us of Satan's evil influence in our hearts or minds, much less his rebellious rule over the entire fallen world.

They are described totally different between the OT and the NT even though they are suppose to be the same person.

That verse you keep quoting is meaningless. It confirms that the NT said Satan was god of this world. But the Bible said that Jesus death destroyed his works, that rendered him powerless, and he was cast out as the ruler of the world.

The Bible says no such thing that we are in a current battle. The evidence is overwhelming in the Bible that such things already occurred. You have to deal with this FACT and provide evidence to the contrary to support your position.

Lastly there is no proof that Satan was the serpent in the garden. Genesis never mentions one word of it. There is NOT one verse in the OT that could be interpreted as Satan as the serpent. There are verses in Revelation that hint at that being the case but in no way does this prove it was Satan. Those verses were written much later and have no relevance on whether it's Satan or not.

duxrow
12-23-2012, 07:57 AM
No I don't think that. What I was referring to when I said that was what I said on page one. Satan is not seen as an enemy of God, a rebel opposed to the Kingdom of God on every level, like he is portrayed in the New Testament. Not one Old Testament verse warns us of Satan's evil influence in our hearts or minds, much less his rebellious rule over the entire fallen world.
Not an enemy of God?
Well, Jesus apparently didn't like what he said in Matt4:4 and Lk4:4
They are described totally different between the OT and the NT even though they are suppose to be the same person.
Did you notice the diff between Elijah and John the Baptist?
That verse you keep quoting is meaningless. It confirms that the NT said Satan was god of this world. But the Bible said that Jesus death destroyed his works, that rendered him powerless, and he was cast out as the ruler of the world.
I don't consider any verses 'meaningless' -- we can't do bizness if that's your view.. hah

The Bible says no such thing that we are in a current battle. The evidence is overwhelming in the Bible that such things already occurred. You have to deal with this FACT and provide evidence to the contrary to support your position.
OK, so don't put on the Armor, and don't arm-wrestle... having "done-all", just stand

Lastly there is no proof that Satan was the serpent in the garden. Genesis never mentions one word of it. There is NOT one verse in the OT that could be interpreted as Satan as the serpent. There are verses in Revelation that hint at that being the case but in no way does this prove it was Satan. Those verses were written much later and have no relevance on whether it's Satan or not.

Take time, why don't you, to study the metaphors of the protagonists!
:ranger:
SLOW HEART by duxrow

Oh fools and slow of heart, to believe all that Jesus has spoken, Lk24:25
Don't you know he's the True Bread that for all of us was broken? 1Cor11:24
If you love me, "Feed my sheep", he said; he didn't mean with hay, Jn21:15
Because His words are spirit, it's the Truth that we must say. Jn6:63

The Rock that poured out water is now the Book that we must eat.. 1Cor10:4
The Stone that they rejected is now the Way that guides our feet. 1Pet2:6
The seals are being opened so even the learned can comprehend, Isa29:11
How the holy grounds of God and wife are truth that is a blend. Isa54:5

O fools and slow of heart to believe the Word that God has sent... Matt6:30
When will you start to pay attention, and understand what's meant! Matt13:52
The language that once was confounded is starting to come unglued, Gen 11:7
So those without the Armor of God, are apt to be caught in the nude! Eph6:11

L67
12-23-2012, 09:20 AM
:ranger:

Not an enemy of God?

Correct. Show me one verse in the OT that says such a thing. You won't find it. That is all NT.




Well, Jesus apparently didn't like what he said in Matt4:4 and Lk4:4

What do those verses have to do with anything I have said?




I don't consider any verses 'meaningless' -- we can't do bizness if that's your view.. hah

Nor do you acknowledge what the Bible actually says. You pick and choose the verses you like that fit your belief. You didn't bother even trying to refute one word of what I said.




OK, so don't put on the Armor, and don't arm-wrestle... having "done-all", just stand

Umm... ok. How about refuting anything I have said?




Take time, why don't you, to study the metaphors of the protagonists!

What will that do? Make me ignore all the evidence? Sorry, studying the metaphors still doesn't advance your argument.

duxrow
12-23-2012, 10:50 AM
:biking_better:
Putting two and two together is what I like to do..
To some the answer is four, and to others twenty-two..
Some people disagree and want to speak of number 3,
I think that's where we're at today, so be advised I've set you free...

Rev12:13 "And when the dragon [serpent, adversary, deceiver] saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child".

Gal 4:19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you"..