Why does Jesus the shepherd leave his flock at the mercy of a Super Wolf? [Archive]

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Greatest I am

12-10-2012, 11:45 AM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-10-2012, 12:48 PM

Why does Jesus the shepherd leave his flock at the mercy of a Super Wolf?

Scriptures say that God gave Satan/Super Wolf dominion over the earth and the power to deceive all of us on this world.

Jesus often used the shepherd and sheep analogy in scriptures.

Following that analogy and the fact that Jesus has been gone for some time now, one must wonder why, if our souls are so important to Jesus, he has left us and past generations at Satan’s mercy.

No shepherd I ever heard of would be so irresponsible to his duty to his flock.
Especially since scriptures tell us that more sheep will be taken by Satan than protected by the shepherd.

Another breach of duty, FMPOV, is that Satan has been sentenced to hell by God, yet justice delayed is considered justice denied by most and God is denying mankind that justice.

I appreciate the free will argument that some might put but our free will was rescinded by God the moment he gave Satan the power to deceive us against our will. That situation is depicted somewhat in this clip which speaks to God letting Satan have his way with us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BzP1wr234&feature=youtu.be

That video is absolutely devastating to the fundamental message of Christianity. It reveals the utter vacuity of popular Christian apologetics which attempt to use "free will" to solve the problem of evil. No thinking person could believe such irrational rhetoric.

And it's funny because I just saw a Christian post this (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=476312169086220&set=a.149137561803684.43023.102771646440276&type=1&ref=nf) on Facebook:

687

And I saw this one (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=460703373965070&set=o.112234995545305&type=1&ref=nf) yesterday:

688

Contradictions abound in the Bible.

This clip is just to show what some think of the shepherd analogy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFw5TsAi1Mk&feature=related

Can you shed some light on these two issues for me?

Regards
DL
The image of Christ as shepherd, coupled with the institution of men as pastors (shepherds) over the "flock" is based on the fundamental biblical error that teaches OBEDIENCE is morality. This paved the way for Hitler's Christian army that could roast Jews alive because they were "only following orders."

sylvius

12-10-2012, 01:05 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-10-2012, 01:29 PM

The image of Christ as shepherd, coupled with the institution of men as pastors (shepherds) over the "flock" is based on the fundamental biblical error that teaches OBEDIENCE is morality. This paved the way for Hitler's Christian army that could roast Jews alive because they were "only following orders."
You forget about the virulent antisemitsm that existed by then, but also now, and of which your statement about "the fundamental biblical error" even is an example.
How is my comment an example of any error? You would do well to explain what you mean rather than speaking in riddles that apparently you yourself don't even understand.

I have forgotten nothing. The virulent antisemitism has a basis in the Bible. History is littered with hundreds of examples of Christians persecuting Jews. They use the Bible to support it:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. 26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Greatest I am

12-11-2012, 08:58 AM

Linnorm Noxot

12-18-2012, 07:58 AM

L67

12-18-2012, 08:19 AM

L67

12-18-2012, 09:07 AM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-18-2012, 09:44 AM

Richard

It is clear to me that Christians close their eyes to the contradictions of their theology because they do not really care about it or follow it.

They are following traditions and culture without thought.

Their theology is not what must be fought because it is just smoke and mirrors. What must be fought is their refusal to think.

I am just thankful that they do not live by what their abominable God teaches.

If you are well into Elaine Pagels' book, you will know how foolish the Christian views have always been.
Especially on sexual matters.

Regards
DL

Hey there DL,

There is nothing more obvious than the truth of your statements. Indeed, the most prominent Christian apologists only confirm your words when they compose utterly absurd and irrational defenses that any child could see through. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes. The innocent see through the Christian lies instantly. It is worse than "smoke and mirrors." The Christian apologists pervert all logic and truth to defend their false dogmas. Nothing could be more ironic. They claim the Bible is the very Word of God and then twist it beyond all recognition to fit their false beliefs.

As for Elaine Pagels book "Adam, Eve, and the Serpent" - thanks for reminding me. I have it on Kindle but have gotten distracted by other things. I imagine it will cohere well with my article The Inextricable Sexism of the Bible (http://www.biblewheel.com/content.php?32-The-Inextricable-Sexism-of-the-Bible). I'll see if I can find time to finish reading it.

All the best,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

12-18-2012, 09:46 AM

Getting back to the original topic. Everyone should watch this videos wonder how we can trust God to do anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMXoPhgTkuY&list=PL42E7A53CF17EABE6&index=4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0_Fos&list=PL42E7A53CF17EABE6&index=3

Those are two of the most powerful videos on the internet. I especially like the second one since it reveals the abject absurdity of the argument from design (A painting requires a painter) that has deceived so many simple-minded Christians.

Greatest I am

12-18-2012, 09:58 AM

Hey there DL,

There is nothing more obvious than the truth of your statements. Indeed, the most prominent Christian apologists only confirm your words when they compose utterly absurd and irrational defenses that any child could see through. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes. The innocent see through the Christian lies instantly. It is worse than "smoke and mirrors." The Christian apologists pervert all logic and truth to defend their false dogmas. Nothing could be more ironic. They claim the Bible is the very Word of God and then twist it beyond all recognition to fit their false beliefs.

As for Elaine Pagels book "Adam, Eve, and the Serpent" - thanks for reminding me. I have it on Kindle but have gotten distracted by other things. I imagine it will cohere well with my article The Inextricable Sexism of the Bible (http://www.biblewheel.com/content.php?32-The-Inextricable-Sexism-of-the-Bible). I'll see if I can find time to finish reading it.

All the best,

Richard

Thanks for this friend.

It is always good to hear agreement from a sound mind.

Regards
DL

Richard Amiel McGough

12-18-2012, 10:05 AM

the contradictions in the bible are there on purpose. so that we may be lifted from worldly things to the true reality of the invisible and eternal things. and also the contradictions are there to teach us in a certain manner. i noticed that most attackers of the christian faith can only attack the shadow of what the christian faith is, it seems like everyone is trapped in a shadow. I have never seen a man able to destroy the true christian faith, and I would that everyone keep attacking the common christian belief systems because they are truly disgusting. there is nothing else I do now, other than attempt to be close to God. peoples illogical reactions to what the bible says keeps fueling me to find the truth.

I don't know who is more likely to open their eyes to what i see. if it is the christians with their pathetic and horrible view about God or if it will be the people that hate the christian religion and god. both of them are 2 sides to the same coin of the world, they both have the same exact perception of what the bible says. it is quite astounding. i think this all might have something to do with human nature. it is sheep-like. full of ignorance. quite the abyss to escape from.

the truth is that, Jesus never left. and satan only blinds those people that belong to this world.
Hey there Linnorm,

I held a similar view when I was a Christian. I "knew" that God had designed the overall structure of the Bible because of the Bible Wheel, but I also knew that the idea it was the "inerrant and infallible Word of God" was a false man-made doctrine for many reasons. First, we don't have the original manuscripts and all existing manuscripts contradict each other and themselves and have many errors. Second, the logic used to derive that doctrine (God cannot lie) is fallaciously applied to the Bible which does not even define itself, let alone say that everything in it was inerrant. Who are we to tell God what kind of book he could produce to accomplish his purposes? Third, the doctrine is absurd because it would imply that God designed the Bible to have only apparent contradictions, as if that were any better than "real" contradictions. My solution was based on the analogy between Christ and the Bible. I saw Christ is the Living Word and the Bible as the Written Word. Both were "stumbling stones" -
1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

I thought that God designed the Bible so that believers would have everything need to believe, and unbelievers would have everything needed to unbelieve. I still think this would be a fine solution if not for the moral abominations attributed to God and the fact that God is entirely and absolutely UNTRUSTWORTHY to actually do anything promised in the Bible. In other words, it would be a fine solution if Christianity were true in some sense. But I see no reason to believe that.

What do you mean by the "shadow of the Christian faith"? Can you state the "substance" that is real?

You say "I have never seen a man able to destroy the true christian faith." That makes me wonder what you mean by "the true Christian faith." Are you the only believer in this "true Christian faith"? Can you define it?

I must take exception with your assertion that anyone who disagrees with you, including myself, are "sheep-like. full of ignorance." You will need to show something we are ignorant of or your words will have not meaning. When you say things like "Jesus never left" I must assume that you are talking about some sort of "spiritual" presence of Jesus that cannot be proven (or distinguished from any other false belief, like Mormons who believe God lives on the Planet Kolob).

All the best,

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

12-18-2012, 10:12 AM

Thanks for this friend.

It is always good to hear agreement from a sound mind.

Regards
DL
Sound minds naturally recognize and resonate with each other. This explains why believers conflict with each other so much.

Soundness of mind comes from integrity and integrity is possible only if one accepts the truth of reality. That's why fundamentalist religion tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of believers. Could anything be more ironic? Their only claim is that they are supposed to have the ULTIMATE TRUTH revealed by God himself, and it is that very claim that destroys both their minds and their morals.

Mental soundness and morality go hand in hand. Both are based on INTEGRITY which is a kind of UNITY which in humans manifests as LOVE and this is the basis of my article The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality (http://www.biblewheel.com/content.php?37-The-Logic-of-Love-A-Natural-Theory-of-Morality) which shows the absurdity of the Christian doctrine that there would be no morality without a bunch of arbitrary laws commanded by a divine lawgiver.

Greatest I am

12-18-2012, 10:42 AM

Get real! Contradictions are there on purpose? What kind of logic is that?

Quite a good logic if you read scriptures the way I do.

Being a Gnostic Christian, I view the bible as a consolidation of many of the other older religions of the day. I see it as a good book of wisdom. But to read it literally and not as a book of myths is insane. I believe that all the old scriptures were written to initiate and prompt discussions, dialogs and the seeking of God. Not a book with a God in it.

And yes, the contradictions were put in with the purpose of making us think and that is why in the days that the Christian faith was born, Gnostics were killed because much of the morals that we saw were reversed from what the Christians saw. The same basic thing that happened to the Jews. For instance, Jews and Gnostics see Eden as a place of man's elevation while Christians see it as man's fall. Jews accentuate the virtue of seeking knowledge while Christians place virtue only in obedience and as Hitchens states, this pleases the Christian desire to be slaves.

We all know that we can make the bible say almost anything and contradict itself on almost all issues. I think that part of the purpose of this style is to make us question and form the most moral opinions. Christian literalists have forgotten this key to reading scriptures.

L67. FYPOV, I agree with you.

I also agree with L N but not for his foolish reasons.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

12-18-2012, 10:46 AM

Sound minds naturally recognize and resonate with each other. This explains why believers conflict with each other so much.

Soundness of mind comes from integrity and integrity is possible only if one accepts the truth of reality. That's why fundamentalist religion tends to corrupt both the minds and the morals of believers. Could anything be more ironic? Their only claim is that they are supposed to have the ULTIMATE TRUTH revealed by God himself, and it is that very claim that destroys both their minds and their morals.

Mental soundness and morality go hand in hand. Both are based on INTEGRITY which is a kind of UNITY which in humans manifests as LOVE and this is the basis of my article The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality (http://www.biblewheel.com/content.php?37-The-Logic-of-Love-A-Natural-Theory-of-Morality) which shows the absurdity of the Christian doctrine that there would be no morality without a bunch of arbitrary laws commanded by a divine lawgiver.

Well put. If I had your eloquence and writing discipline I would have put my book together a long time ago.

Regards
DL

duxrow

12-18-2012, 02:28 PM

:smash:
Now Playing: Man Arrested After Telling Kids Santa Isn't Real | NR
A man was arrested for public disturbance and a probation violation after he allegedly drunkenly told kids at a Christmas parade that Santa Claus was not real. Patrick Jones has the details. :p

Richard Amiel McGough

12-18-2012, 03:08 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-18-2012, 03:23 PM

Quite a good logic if you read scriptures the way I do.

Being a Gnostic Christian, I view the bible as a consolidation of many of the other older religions of the day. I see it as a good book of wisdom. But to read it literally and not as a book of myths is insane. I believe that all the old scriptures were written to initiate and prompt discussions, dialogs and the seeking of God. Not a book with a God in it.

That's a good point of view. It is very similar to that of Thom Stark who remains a Christian but refuses to accept the ludicrous arguments put forth by the fundamentalists. Here is how he expressed his understanding of what it means to be a Christian in a comment thread on his book The Human Faces of God: What Scripture Reveals When It Gets God Wrong (and Why Inerrancy Tries to Hide It) (http://www.amazon.com/dp/160899323X/ref=as_li_ss_til?tag=thebibwhe-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=160899323X&adid=0H9M4P55H34K2D3A8XYJ) when a person said that he had to affirm the Apostles' Creed in order to be a Christian [link (http://www.amazon.com/review/R3G2EZZAAPH9EC/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=160899323X&cdForum=Fx1QLN7TV48FZB7&cdMsgID=MxWN13R14X1ZQ1&cdMsgNo=6&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3TSW7R8QZ2FAH&store=books#MxWN13R14X1ZQ1)]:

The Apostles Creed? What's that? Did you just make that up?

No, in all sincerity, you've presented quite the compelling case, against a figment of your imagination.

How do you know that I don't affirm the Apostles Creed? Because I said that I wasn't an Evangelical, and that we need to read the New Testament critically? From that you conclude that I don't measure up to any standard of orthodoxy? I'm not going to engage in this kind of discussion; it's simply a distraction from the evidence on the table, which you haven't addressed. You want me to say certain words to alleviate your pseudo-paternalistic anxieties. I'm not going to say them for you. You'll just have to adjust your television set or turn it off.

You want to know what I believe? I believe that hope takes more faith than creedal confessions. So, I hope in God Almighty, in a God who created heaven and earth for peace. I hope in Jesus Christ, the Child of God, our Mentor. I believe in the meaning of the virgin birth, which is that in Jesus, God has breathed new life into humanity, beginning again, as God did with Adam. I hope in the power of God's Spirit to give us new life. I believe that Jesus was born of Mary, that he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, was buried, and descended to the dead. I hope that on the third day he rose again, but whether he did or not, I believe in resurrection power, which is an expression of God's justice, of God's turning an upside-down world right-side up. I believe in that, and I hope it's true. I hope in the Holy Spirit. I hope for the holy catholic Church. I believe in the communion of saints, and the forgiveness of sins. I hope for the resurrection of the body, but more importantly I believe that we ought to live in light of such a hope.

What you call "belief" I call a litmus test and a distraction. What constitutes faith is not our confession, our mental assent to a series of propositions. Faith is what we do in light of what we hope to be true. I affirm the Apostles Creed not because I "believe" it, but because I believe in believing it. If that puts me beyond "any standard of orthodoxy," then so too goes most of your Anglican Communion over here on this side of the pond. Regardless, I have no interest in orthodoxy-at least the kind that is used to test the Other by standards not the Other's own, which is a rigged game. What I'm interested in is justice, and God damn me if that's not enough. Of course, it's what the Gospels, and the Apostles Creed, are all about. But never mind that. Because your orthodoxy demands semantic assent.

The problem with Evangelicals is that none of them have the ovaries to tell God where to shove it. They're too afraid of being mistaken for an atheist or something; oh, and a few of them would be afraid of God too. But it would never occur to them that God might be looking for a fight. Contrary to current opinion, "thinking for yourself" is not an invention of the Enlightenment. It actually has a long and distinguished biblical tradition. Try it some time. Once you've said, "God, you might not exist, or you might be a bastard, but I'm not going to give in to despair, because people have it much worse than I do and you're certainly not doing anything about it, so at least I have that going for me," the scales are going to fall off. You're going to see. See the ambiguity of our existence. And then you can start having faith.

Until then, you're just teaching to the test.

It takes no faith whatsoever to affirm the Apostles Creed in order to keep you safely within the confines of orthodoxy. It takes real faith to affirm it as an act of rebellion against God.

Thom Stark is quite brilliant. He wrote a three hundred page critique of Paul Copan's recent excremental pile of incoherent blather attempting to excuse the bad behavior of Yahweh called Is God a Moral Monster? (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0801072751/ref=as_li_ss_til?tag=thebibwhe-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=0801072751&adid=16H41RF2QN4C4753N8M9). It was absolutely devastating.

And yes, the contradictions were put in with the purpose of making us think and that is why in the days that the Christian faith was born, Gnostics were killed because much of the morals that we saw were reversed from what the Christians saw. The same basic thing that happened to the Jews. For instance, Jews and Gnostics see Eden as a place of man's elevation while Christians see it as man's fall. Jews accentuate the virtue of seeking knowledge while Christians place virtue only in obedience and as Hitchens states, this pleases the Christian desire to be slaves.

I don't think it makes sense to say that the contradictions were "put there" as if it were a deliberate action by an agent. Doesn't it make much more sense to understand that they naturally occurred because the many different books were written by different people?

Greatest I am

12-18-2012, 05:07 PM

That's a good point of view. It is very similar to that of Thom Stark who remains a Christian but refuses to accept the ludicrous arguments put forth by the fundamentalists. Here is how he expressed his understanding of what it means to be a Christian in a comment thread on his book The Human Faces of God: What Scripture Reveals When It Gets God Wrong (and Why Inerrancy Tries to Hide It) (http://www.amazon.com/dp/160899323X/ref=as_li_ss_til?tag=thebibwhe-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=160899323X&adid=0H9M4P55H34K2D3A8XYJ) when a person said that he had to affirm the Apostles' Creed in order to be a Christian [link (http://www.amazon.com/review/R3G2EZZAAPH9EC/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=160899323X&cdForum=Fx1QLN7TV48FZB7&cdMsgID=MxWN13R14X1ZQ1&cdMsgNo=6&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3TSW7R8QZ2FAH&store=books#MxWN13R14X1ZQ1)]:

Thom Stark is quite brilliant. He wrote a three hundred page critique of Paul Copan's recent excremental pile of incoherent blather attempting to excuse the bad behavior of Yahweh called Is God a Moral Monster? (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0801072751/ref=as_li_ss_til?tag=thebibwhe-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=0801072751&adid=16H41RF2QN4C4753N8M9). It was absolutely devastating.

I don't think it makes sense to say that the contradictions were "put there" as if it were a deliberate action by an agent. Doesn't it make much more sense to understand that they naturally occurred because the many different books were written by different people?

It is a well known fact that many of the scriptures are forgeries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xH93PSZ6fQ

We can speculate as to why but there are so many contradictions that I think they had to be deliberate.
Especially when you see the twinning that the Jews used to do. Two different creations of man, two floods and more that I have forgotten.

Truth is we can never know and mine is an educated guess.

Regards
DL

CWH

12-18-2012, 06:26 PM

Good thing he was arrested! Next thing you know, he would have been telling them that Jesus wasn't real! :eek:
Yeah, Hopefully the next thing you know that people were arrested for saying there is no God or for saying there is no Creation. The lists can go on and on; let's not waste time accusing. We have no right to force anyone who or what to believe.

God Bless.:pray:

Linnorm Noxot

12-19-2012, 03:17 AM

Get real! Contradictions are there on purpose? What kind of logic is that? You have never seen anyone destroy Christian faith? Here watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tw3i3k4zCs

~sigh~ have you ever heard of a paradox? btw that guy did not destroy the christian faith.what he did attack, is the lamb that speaks like a dragon.

but this is what you are not seeing at all. and you say to me "see see Christianity is destroyed", no dude listen to me for once, most christians are little children that got enslaved from birth, they never learn spiritual truths, they just get sucked into the same thing that human beings always get sucked into, their own ego. they follow laws, the flesh, the letter, the finite mind, their own knowledge, the earth, the world that is, satan, the god of the world, the son of perdition, evil spirits, their own soul, the woman, ect. it is all the same thing, just different pictures and words.

but I don't know any one who can destroy the christian faith because to do that you would have to be spiritual because to be spiritual is the only way to read spiritual things. it is good to hate evil, keep hating it. but if you want to destroy something then you have to know what it is first. just because everyone claims they know, does not mean that they do know. when I attack christians with my arguments all they tell me is that i am distorting the word of God to my own views. it is funny because that is what I say that everyone else is doing. not only do i say the things I say, but teachers such as origen and mystics such as pseudo-dionysius say the same things that I say, also paul the apostle, and jesus christ all say the same things, because we are all one spirit. we know what we are and where we come from. true Christianity frees us from outward appearances. to be a slave is to already have been a slave.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-19-2012, 09:49 AM

~sigh~ have you ever heard of a paradox? btw that guy did not destroy the christian faith.what he did attack, is the lamb that speaks like a dragon.

but this is what you are not seeing at all. and you say to me "see see Christianity is destroyed", no dude listen to me for once, most christians are little children that got enslaved from birth, they never learn spiritual truths, they just get sucked into the same thing that human beings always get sucked into, their own ego. they follow laws, the flesh, the letter, the finite mind, their own knowledge, the earth, the world that is, satan, the god of the world, the son of perdition, evil spirits, their own soul, the woman, ect. it is all the same thing, just different pictures and words.

but I don't know any one who can destroy the christian faith because to do that you would have to be spiritual because to be spiritual is the only way to read spiritual things. it is good to hate evil, keep hating it. but if you want to destroy something then you have to know what it is first. just because everyone claims they know, does not mean that they do know. when I attack christians with my arguments all they tell me is that i am distorting the word of God to my own views. it is funny because that is what I say that everyone else is doing. not only do i say the things I say, but teachers such as origen and mystics such as pseudo-dionysius say the same things that I say, also paul the apostle, and jesus christ all say the same things, because we are all one spirit. we know what we are and where we come from. true Christianity frees us from outward appearances. to be a slave is to already have been a slave.
Hey there Linnorm, :yo:

I agree that "most christians are little children that got enslaved from birth." And I agree that that is the religion that Hitchen's "destroyed." The "spiritual religion" that you are follow is not well defined as far as I can tell. You use many of the same words as the "lamb that speaks like a dragon" (that is, the words of the Bible) but you invest them with your own unique meaning. That's why Christians think you are "distorting the word of God" to fit your own views. This is what all Christians think about those who disagree with them, and there is no way to discern who is right or wrong, so it's just a war of empty words and opinions. The fact that you can find some Christians who agree with you in part (e.g. Origin, pseudo-Dionysius, etc.) doesn't help because they are not the final authority on anything. Religion is nothing but empty assertions because no one can prove they are right. This contrasts dramatically with real knowledge produced by people with sound minds based on logic and facts which can be verified.

It is interesting that you claim that you have the truth because you share the "one spirit" with Christ and Paul. Don't you think that's exactly what all other Christians believe? How then do you determine who is right and who is wrong?

Linnorm Noxot

12-21-2012, 06:25 AM

Hey there Linnorm, :yo:

I agree that "most christians are little children that got enslaved from birth." And I agree that that is the religion that Hitchen's "destroyed." The "spiritual religion" that you are follow is not well defined as far as I can tell. You use many of the same words as the "lamb that speaks like a dragon" (that is, the words of the Bible) but you invest them with your own unique meaning. That's why Christians think you are "distorting the word of God" to fit your own views. This is what all Christians think about those who disagree with them, and there is no way to discern who is right or wrong, so it's just a war of empty words and opinions. The fact that you can find some Christians who agree with you in part (e.g. Origin, pseudo-Dionysius, etc.) doesn't help because they are not the final authority on anything. Religion is nothing but empty assertions because no one can prove they are right. This contrasts dramatically with real knowledge produced by people with sound minds based on logic and facts which can be verified.

It is interesting that you claim that you have the truth because you share the "one spirit" with Christ and Paul. Don't you think that's exactly what all other Christians believe? How then do you determine who is right and who is wrong?

I am finding myself to agree perfectly with each of the saints. the ones who are higher ranking are the ones that form the heavenly church, of which the earthly church is very ignorant of. the earthly church does everything according to the appearances of things, they honor the image above reality and they read the bible with a human understanding even though they are told to not be of the world any longer. someone has to be right and I argue that I am more correct than the common christians. we already know that many of the common Christians belief systems are insane and many people see how absurd their belief system is. my moral system is much better than people that think God will either delete or cause to suffer forever some of his own creations. this is one strike against the earthly church and one point for the heavenly. the way to read the bible is to be full of the spirit of God and I claim to be closer to god than many christians. the closer you are, the better you will be able to understand who God is.

who is right and who is wrong? the Spirit of God is right and everyone else is wrong. inasmuch as we partake of God, the more we will be right. this is true if God is the one he says he is and if I have seen who he says he is then I am right. yes sir, most christians think they are full of the holy spirit and I am sure that we all have a taste of him. but if christians never even get fed good milk, how will they ever be able to eat of the greens and the meat? all feeding a child meat does, is choke him, and they indeed choke when they hear the meat of the word, they just can't digest it or chew it.

who gets to define what is real knowledge and who gets to say who has a sound mind? who can tell me what logic is? i am sure you can understand that if the God that i speak of is real, then he is the foundation of all things and he provides some of us with spiritual knowledge, some of us with other kinds of knowledge. if this is not the case then I am simply delusional and making things up and I am deceived. if god is who i believe him to be, then I am truly partaking of him and the things he gives me. why would the bible tell us about a god? it is either a lie of mankind or it is the truth, if it is the truth then we now have certain things that we can use to obtain a "knowledge" of spiritual things, just as the physical world has it's "knowledge" of physical things. if the reality is that there is a spiritual knowledge, then those that believe that there is only a physical kind of knowledge will be in some errors. it is the same way for me if there is only physical knowledge. I believe spiritual knowledge to be superior because it points to God. I do claim that i do not invest my own meaning to the scriptures, rather I claim that i speak the true meaning and the physical perception of the spiritual words dropped down to us and clothed in the flesh/physical is the wrong one. you can not force a body of knowledge on something and expect it to compute together correctly if it is not of the same substance, or you can not use the english language to understand what the greek language is saying, or you can not call a galaxy a apple if it is an galaxy, you could but you would be wrong if it really is an galaxy. my belief system is much more in unity than the physical sight of reading the bible allows. if my understanding of how to comprehend the bible is true, then we must go by the rules that the spiritual say rather than the rules of the letter and human beings perceptions and how they act in this world.

some things in the bible are even able to be understood according to the letter, but we see contradictions of gods character in the bible and so we are pushed to seek and search things out more carefully to find the meaning of what is said. it is a science unto it's self. and most christians are ignorant of this hidden wisdom and just accept whatever is said in the bible like doves that refuse to be wiser than serpents, therefore the serpent does deceive them. then you study that kind of christian and you see that, even his dove-like qualities are that of a sick dove who may give meningitis to others if you listen to him rather than a healthy dove.

I understand that most people will not accept my knowledge because it is foolishness to them. I wish i could compact my thoughts into a few sentences! thank you for pointing out that my spiritual religion is not well defined, i hope it will come to more solidity as I grow and as I forsake everything and seek after this that i am going after. if I am not so foolish i will be able to get good things from people that oppose my view, it will all serve to build up. I do ponder how I could define it better!

Greatest I am

12-30-2012, 10:33 AM

All those great hidden secrets that only a true believer can believe.
Sigh.

How pathetic.

Regards
DL

Richard Amiel McGough

12-30-2012, 11:36 AM

It is interesting that you claim that you have the truth because you share the "one spirit" with Christ and Paul. Don't you think that's exactly what all other Christians believe? How then do you determine who is right and who is wrong?
I am finding myself to agree perfectly with each of the saints. the ones who are higher ranking are the ones that form the heavenly church, of which the earthly church is very ignorant of. the earthly church does everything according to the appearances of things, they honor the image above reality and they read the bible with a human understanding even though they are told to not be of the world any longer. someone has to be right and I argue that I am more correct than the common christians. we already know that many of the common Christians belief systems are insane and many people see how absurd their belief system is. my moral system is much better than people that think God will either delete or cause to suffer forever some of his own creations. this is one strike against the earthly church and one point for the heavenly. the way to read the bible is to be full of the spirit of God and I claim to be closer to god than many christians. the closer you are, the better you will be able to understand who God is.

who is right and who is wrong? the Spirit of God is right and everyone else is wrong. inasmuch as we partake of God, the more we will be right. this is true if God is the one he says he is and if I have seen who he says he is then I am right. yes sir, most christians think they are full of the holy spirit and I am sure that we all have a taste of him. but if christians never even get fed good milk, how will they ever be able to eat of the greens and the meat? all feeding a child meat does, is choke him, and they indeed choke when they hear the meat of the word, they just can't digest it or chew it.

Hey there Linnorm,

Your assertion that you "agree perfectly with each of the saints" doesn't make any sense to me because those "saints" you agree with don't agree with each other. Or are you defining "saints" as only those that you agree with? If that is the case, then your comment has no content. There must be a way to discern who is right and who is wrong.

Your idea that the "earthly church read the bible with a human understanding" makes no sense to me because humans have no "understanding" that is not human. If you are claiming that you have access to "heavenly understanding" then how do you know that your understanding is correct? If you form arguments, those arguments must be based on "human understanding." I find it very interesting that Christians frequently assert that they do not use "human understanding." For example, a good friend on this forum, David M, constantly asserts that he does not rely on "human understanding" but rather on "what the Bible teaches." But then he goes on to use his "human understanding" to prove his doctrines which are quite different than those of the vast majority of equally sincere students of Scripture. The phrase "human understanding" should never be used because it is redundant. All understanding that humans can have is "human understanding."

Your assertion that "someone has to be right and I argue that I am more correct than the common christians" seems to be mere assertion and it contradicts your rejection of "human understanding" since "human understanding" is required to form any argument. Merely asserting that you are the one who aligns with God's Spirit proves nothing since you admit that many Christians with false beliefs make the same claim. How then can you have any confidence that you are right and they are wrong? Merely asserting that you are right doesn't prove anything to you or anyone else.

who gets to define what is real knowledge and who gets to say who has a sound mind? who can tell me what logic is? i am sure you can understand that if the God that i speak of is real, then he is the foundation of all things and he provides some of us with spiritual knowledge, some of us with other kinds of knowledge. if this is not the case then I am simply delusional and making things up and I am deceived. if god is who i believe him to be, then I am truly partaking of him and the things he gives me. why would the bible tell us about a god? it is either a lie of mankind or it is the truth, if it is the truth then we now have certain things that we can use to obtain a "knowledge" of spiritual things, just as the physical world has it's "knowledge" of physical things.

You have hit the nail on the head. The world is filled with people who sincerely believe they have received spiritual knowledge but who disagree with you and most others. Merely saying that if you are right then you are right means nothing and gives no one, including yourself, any way to know who is right or wrong.

if the reality is that there is a spiritual knowledge, then those that believe that there is only a physical kind of knowledge will be in some errors. it is the same way for me if there is only physical knowledge. I believe spiritual knowledge to be superior because it points to God. I do claim that i do not invest my own meaning to the scriptures, rather I claim that i speak the true meaning and the physical perception of the spiritual words dropped down to us and clothed in the flesh/physical is the wrong one. you can not force a body of knowledge on something and expect it to compute together correctly if it is not of the same substance, or you can not use the english language to understand what the greek language is saying, or you can not call a galaxy a apple if it is an galaxy, you could but you would be wrong if it really is an galaxy. my belief system is much more in unity than the physical sight of reading the bible allows. if my understanding of how to comprehend the bible is true, then we must go by the rules that the spiritual say rather than the rules of the letter and human beings perceptions and how they act in this world.

There could be "spiritual knowledge" but how would you know? Your appeal to "unity" is proof of nothing. Unity is only a necessary, but not sufficient condition for truth of an interpretation. This is obvious because any system of belief can be "unified" if folks allow themselves to twist words. Harold Camping is a perfect example of this error. He claimed that all his beliefs were based "on the Bible alone and in its entirety." And he used the "harmony" of his interpretations as "proof" that they were correct. The problem was that he twisted words into utterly meaningless pretzels to force his interpretations. And the result? He proclaimed that the Bible guaranteed absolutely that the Rapture would happen on May 21, 2011. He said that the only way his prediction could be wrong was if the Bible was wrong.

I trust you understand now why mere "unity" of private interpretations is proof of nothing because there is no way to know if that "unity" was forced by the twisting of words, either deliberately or unconsciously (it's usually a mix of both).

some things in the bible are even able to be understood according to the letter, but we see contradictions of gods character in the bible and so we are pushed to seek and search things out more carefully to find the meaning of what is said. it is a science unto it's self. and most christians are ignorant of this hidden wisdom and just accept whatever is said in the bible like doves that refuse to be wiser than serpents, therefore the serpent does deceive them. then you study that kind of christian and you see that, even his dove-like qualities are that of a sick dove who may give meningitis to others if you listen to him rather than a healthy dove.

When you "see contradictions of gods character" why do you try to deny what the words plainly state? If you really think that the Bible is God's Word why don't you accept it as such? It looks to me that all you are doing is using your human understanding to force the Bible to fit your human intuitions of what it "should say" no matter how directly it contradicts what you want it to say. How then can anyone have any confidence that they are right? Essentially very person who follows your path will come to different conclusions because the conclusions come from their own limited and fallible human understanding and values.

I understand that most people will not accept my knowledge because it is foolishness to them. I wish i could compact my thoughts into a few sentences! thank you for pointing out that my spiritual religion is not well defined, i hope it will come to more solidity as I grow and as I forsake everything and seek after this that i am going after. if I am not so foolish i will be able to get good things from people that oppose my view, it will all serve to build up. I do ponder how I could define it better!
I hope you understand that I am not saying that your "spiritual religion" is "false" - rather, all I am saying is that it is really just a projection of your own intuitions which may be true, but they are not what is actually taught in the Bible since they depend entirely upon your own human understandings and human intuitions. The simple fact is that there is no way for anyone to know if a "spiritual truth" is true or not because there is no standard by which to measure.

Great chatting!

Richard

Linnorm Noxot

12-30-2012, 10:23 PM

When you "see contradictions of gods character" why do you try to deny what the words plainly state? If you really think that the Bible is God's Word why don't you accept it as such? It looks to me that all you are doing is using your human understanding to force the Bible to fit your human intuitions of what it "should say" no matter how directly it contradicts what you want it to say. How then can anyone have any confidence that they are right? Essentially very person who follows your path will come to different conclusions because the conclusions come from their own limited and fallible human understanding and values.

I hope you understand that I am not saying that your "spiritual religion" is "false" - rather, all I am saying is that it is really just a projection of your own intuitions which may be true, but they are not what is actually taught in the Bible since they depend entirely upon your own human understandings and human intuitions. The simple fact is that there is no way for anyone to know if a "spiritual truth" is true or not because there is no standard by which to measure.

Great chatting!

Richard

because there are 2 gods, one is the letter that human beings understand and this god is only a common perception that most human beings share together, be they christians or atheist. the real God is the spirit/invisible/love/truth/beauty/ect

that is the God that speaks and carves the law on our hearts. the other God is a shadow and a bad perception. my own understanding and mind is not good enough, this is why i need to go to the divine darkness and be simplified. now I see God is in unity, he is very simple and there are no parts to him. though i act as a part for him. I don't really think to much anymore, it got in the way, that machine was far to weak to ever be able to correctly speak about the things that are. however when i try to convert everything down to words and letters it is very hard to express to other beings what i saw.

human percpetions is like a very loud liar that constantly screams out what is truth, I just can't penetrate to people when I tell them that destruction does not mean evil, it means good. peoples soul got messed up when eve ate the knowledge of good and evil. then her spirit got darkened. to be born again is for eve to die and for the new adam to rise. then we can stop being trapped in this world, with its false perception of the things that are displayed and we can start dwellings in the reality that is invisible and truth.

"do not be wise in your own eyes" and "the simple and most plain of all lights are the very tools that we need in order to see the dark parts that seem very hard on us" now at the first what i had to do was find those people that really wanted God, then I prayed to God to learn and I learned. now i'm here after many struggles and pain. it is scary and i'm shaking. i'm an idiot and I don't know what the truth is. i'm weak and I have no understanding. what do i want? i just want to be near God. why do i proclaim things as truth if I say i don't know anything? the darkness was past everything, i just want to be silent, but how do I express the truth to other people or why am I speaking in this place?

what can I say? there was a viper and it bite me, and then I looked at the cross and then I saw that the viper was a seraphim. i'm harmless, i don't want to hurt people, If I sound harsh, it is to try to get them to see that they have bad morals and they can do better. like when people think so much killing of others is okay or acceptable. what is the difference between me and those psychopaths that want to harm and hurt others? i want them to have milk, and the psychopaths want to devour the flock. and if I eat of some lambling, it is not sin for me, for it is to taste their fruits, but those wolves want to destroy and convert and breed and create more wolves.

most of the christians in this world are rabbits. they live in holes, they have not hooves of the clean kind, they chew the cud they seem innocent but they are very ignorant of the spiritual truths that leviathan breaths out, which is a type of Christ. and they breed very very fast. I don't hate them, i don't want to hate anyone, just evil things. if I am deceived, then I need to get out of it, if I can't move much because of God, then so be it.

it is quite astounding at how kind people can be, I don't understand why they don't see the Lord plainly, they are all his children after all. this world is just a place for us to be with God, this is the secret. hell is this world, it is plain. because I hear so often christians speak lies, it is quite damaging. but am i any better? i don't know how i escaped from myself, i hope I can let go of him, I don't need him... I need Christ. I don't know the truth, Christ knows. I trust him, I love him and I know him. if im deceived, i'm not taking anyone down with me, and this death is not so harsh at all. the only way i can prove that i am telling the truth is for the other ones to eat God like I did. but I don't know what happened, i'm just gonna wait here on this earth in fear and trembling. but not the kind of fear that comes from the earth.

how do i teach someone that my view of the bible is the right way? he already knows to a large degree it seems to me? would it help if I told him to read without hatred and judgment or favoritism for anything at all other than seeking God? read the saints such as origen or pseudo-dionysius not because they are bad but because they help lead on to the truth. i don't know what would show him the truth, he is after all the higher ranking angel that was gifted with showing the bible wheel to other human beings. what could I do? he plainly saw the truth and talked about it, he still speaks it so often. why does he not see that Christ is love? curse the common christian belief system! but this blindness is to see who will seek God with everything and who will give up. that sounds like a manipulation i know. we all from time to time wander and it seems like we are without the lord, this is the path of the saints and mystics.

Greatest I am

01-01-2013, 07:40 AM

how do i teach someone that my view of the bible is the right way?

Easy. Show the morality of it.
Anyone can refute what is given but morality, as you say, all have.
Fact is, your bible was written by immoral men who put anti-love and anti-Jewish words in Jesus' mouth.

he already knows to a large degree it seems to me? would it help if I told him to read without hatred and judgment or favoritism for anything at all other than seeking God?

Seeking God is good.
Thinking you have found him in a book is idol worship.
The scriptures tell you to seek God in nature and everywhere yet you can only find his ways in your book.

why does he not see that Christ is love?

Because love, like faith, expresses itself in works and deeds and must have reciprocity to be true love.

If God is love, he is not showing the 10 million children under 10 years old who die needlessly every year.
Such a hateful God is hard to love.

Regards
DL

CWH

01-01-2013, 08:08 AM

Because love, like faith, expresses itself in works and deeds and must have reciprocity to be true love.

If God is love, he is not showing the 10 million children under 10 years old who die needlessly every year.
Such a hateful God is hard to love.

Regards
DL
if there is no God and 10 million children still die needlessly every year, who do you blame? Man....Science,,,,,Evolution....Nature.....or just Hard Luck?

Or Should God save everybody evil or good since the creation of the world and the population should now reached 1,000,000,000,000,000 people by now, what are we to eat, where are we to live, sleep, play and work, how are we to cope with over-population and pollution?

What if God allows these 10 million children to die only to allow them to be rebirth or reincarnated or be pardon and be resurrected....would they have died in vain? Funny, how come Jesus said there are children a hundred fold in the regeneration/renewal of all things to come?

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

God Bless. :pray:

Greatest I am

01-01-2013, 09:47 AM

if there is no God and 10 million children still die needlessly every year, who do you blame? Man....Science,,,,,Evolution....Nature.....or just Hard Luck?

Or Should God save everybody evil or good since the creation of the world and the population should now reached 1,000,000,000,000,000 people by now, what are we to eat, where are we to live, sleep, play and work, how are we to cope with over-population and pollution?

What if God allows these 10 million children to die only to allow them to be rebirth or reincarnated or be pardon and be resurrected....would they have died in vain? Funny, how come Jesus said there are children a hundred fold in the regeneration/renewal of all things to come?

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

God Bless. :pray:

If your God is a myth, and he is, then man is responsible for how we treat each other.

You are trying to do to me what you do to others in answering a question with a question because you have no answers.

All you have is biblical B S.

If your God is watching all those children die needlessly, is he acting in a moral way?
Would you sit beside God in heaven and just allow your loved ones to starve like that without asking him why he does not act?

Regards
DL

CWH

01-01-2013, 10:15 AM

If your God is a myth, and he is, then man is responsible for how we treat each other.

You are trying to do to me what you do to others in answering a question with a question because you have no answers.

All you have is biblical B S.

If your God is watching all those children die needlessly, is he acting in a moral way?
Would you sit beside God in heaven and just allow your loved ones to starve like that without asking him why he does not act?

Regards
DL

Since there is no God as what you said then man is responsible for the death of 10 million children every year, what are we gonna do? Why have man not been able to solve all these problems?....or....is this problem to continue forever and ever?

Then what do you think God is supposed to do when Man don't want Him to do anything to solve the problem by hating and cursing Him, rejecting Him, disobeying Him, thinking He is a myth and evil? Man obviously could not solve that problem. It is like I want to help but you refused and instead scold and curse me, what am I to do? Does America help those nations that hates, curse, reject America and Americans?.... and people questions why America never helps!...OMG.

Isn't that exactly what Jesus said and ws trying to do?..... Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

God Bless.:pray:

Greatest I am

01-01-2013, 10:42 AM

Since there is no God as what you said then man is responsible for the death of 10 million children every year, what are we gonna do? Why have man not been able to solve all these problems?....or....is this problem to continue forever and ever?

Jesus said that the poor would always be with us so there is nothing we can do if your God exists unless Jesus was lying.

Then what do you think God is supposed to do when Man don't want Him to do anything to solve the problem by hating and cursing Him,

Is that what believers do when they pray?
No wonder then that your God ignores them.
As to non-believers who would curse him and hate him if he existed, are you saying that non-believers are causing God to ignore believers and their prayers?
Is God being controlled by the evil ones of this earth. Seems that that is what you are saying.

rejecting Him, disobeying Him, thinking He is a myth and evil? Man obviously could not solve that problem. It is like I want to help but you refused and instead scold and curse me, what am I to do? Does America help those nations that hates, curse, reject America and Americans?.... and people questions why America never helps!...OMG.

Isn't that exactly what Jesus said and ws trying to do?..... Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

God Bless.:pray:

You keep trying to deflect by switching the issue from what God is doing to what man is doing. We do not have his power do we or is this just your usual bobbing and weaving away from genuine discourse?

Regards
DL

CWH

01-01-2013, 11:43 AM

You keep trying to deflect by switching the issue from what God is doing to what man is doing. We do not his power do we or is this just your usual bobbing and weaving away from genuine discourse?

Regards
DL
Good, at least you humble and admit yourself that we humans do not have His power to solve all these problems. Then why don't you ask Him now to provide humans with all these powers one day. I believe one day we will have God's power to solve all these problems since we want to be like God, wise, knowing good and evil. The Bible said, "you are god"....we have not reached the stage of God yet, never will unless we seek God's help.

Jesus said that the poor would always be with us so there is nothing we can do if your God exists unless Jesus was lying.
You don't even understand that passage, Jesus said, "You will always have the poor with you but you will not always have me" meaning that the masters of the world will belong to the poor people but poor people does not always enters into the kingdom of heaven unless thy believe in Him. Note in reference also to what Jesus said that the rich will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I have wrote a detailed thread on "Will we use money in heaven?" to show that when we live in a future non-monetary world, where everything is shared and the only currency is genuine brotherly love, all of us will be living like billionaires beyond our dreams. The main reasons why we have poor with us is because of the greed for money and luxury which caused the disparity between the rich and the poor. Imagine if all of us in the whole world shared all our riches equally among the poor, will there be poor people in the world? No, Then why didn't rich people do it? Simple reasons - greed for money, selfish, luxurious living, comfort, security, power, prestige etc.
Jesus is right, since the poor is always be oppressed by the rich, we will always have the poor with us; and since we don't use money in heaven, we will still be considered poor. But whether you are rich or poor and if you do not always have Jesus in your heart, then what good will that be if you cannot enter heaven to enjoy the riches in it?

PS thread: Will we use money in heaven:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?1346-Will-we-use-money-in-heaven

Is that what believers do when they pray?
No wonder then that your God ignores them.

As to non-believers who would curse him and hate him if he existed, are you saying that non-believers are causing God to ignore believers and their prayers?
Is God being controlled by the evil ones of this earth. Seems that that is what you are saying.
God's ignorance may not necessary be bad. God works in mysterious ways to grant your prayers. Jesus never taught us to pray for riches, health, personal safety etc. but to love God with all your heart soul and migHt and to Love thy neighbor as thyself. Our focus in prayers should not be earthly desires but towards rewards and eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. Isn't that what God wants us to do so that if possible that all will be saved. Remember, we get what we reap.

This is what I wrote about the Lord's prayer and the rules for proper prayers in a recent post:

Thanks Timmy, agreed with what you said. Most of us prayed selfishly, foolishly or inappropriately which was perhaps the main reasons for some prayers not granted. The praying to a mlik jug is ridiculous as nobody in his right mind will do that and therefore, the example that RAM gave is stupidity. The proper way to pray is to study and emulate the Lord's prayer. The Lord's prayer never asks for prosperity, personal safety, longevity, health; and obviously not to a milkjug!. Let's look at it in details:

Matthew ^;5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

Therefore, the rules of proper prayer are:
1. when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.
2. when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
3. Pray to keep God's name holy and not in vain (hallowed be thy name)
4. Pray for God's Kingdom to Come (thy kingdom come)
5. Pray for doing God's will (thy will be done)
6. Pray for obeying, understanding and doing according to God's words daily (Give us this day our daily bread)
7. Pray for forgiveness of sins (Forgive us our trespasses)
8. Pray for forgiving others (as we forgive those who trespassed against us)
9. Pray for not to be tempted by evil (lead us not into temptations)
10. Pray for not being deceived by evil. (but deliver us from the evil one)

Obviously, the Lord's prayer is based on Loving God with all you heart soul and might and:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.

Loving thy neighbor as thyself:
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us [B]not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.

For more details on the Lord's prayer, PS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Prayer

May God Bless the poor.:pray:

Greatest I am

01-01-2013, 12:15 PM

CWH

01-01-2013, 12:34 PM

God leads you into temptation I see.

Your preaching falls into the dust bin where it belongs.

You have yet to show any kind of decent morality and you want me to follow you and your God.
Good luck with that.

Regards
DL

You have no love and respect for God but continue to curse and hate Him, and you expect God th help you? OMG! DL needs our prayers.:pray::pray:

You don't even know me, how do you know have no decent morals? Do you have insider knowledge or did God told you so? I wonder how decently moral are you?

God Bless and Happy new Year.:pray:

Greatest I am

01-01-2013, 12:46 PM

You have no love and respect for God but continue to curse and hate Him, and you expect God th help you? OMG! DL needs our prayers.:pray::pray:

You don't even know me, how do you know have no decent morals? Do you have insider knowledge or did God told you so? I wonder how decently moral are you?

God Bless and Happy new Year.:pray:

Why in the hell would I want to respect a genocidal son murdering God?
Why do you?

-----------------------------------------

No need to wonder about my morals my friend. I lay them out daily for those of your ilk to refute but Christian morals are so poor that Christians never argue them or attempt to refute them.

I have asked you to do so before and ask again to pick your issue and put your money where your mouth is.

Divorce and God's punishment are rather good issues if you wish to learn something.
You are not good at teaching or preaching, perhaps we can both learn to be better debaters.

Come On Down.

If you decide to then bring your mind and logic and leave your old worn out bible quotes behind.
I have read them all and have written the good in my heart and that is why I can outdo you in a moral discussion.

Can I ever get you to admit it?
I doubt it. You have invested a lot of poorly used brain power on your WORD and are not honest enough to even tell the truth about the God you fear so much.

Regards
DL

David M

01-02-2013, 03:00 AM

You are trying to do to me what you do to others in answering a question with a question because you have no answers.

If your God is watching all those children die needlessly, is he acting in a moral way?
Would you sit beside God in heaven and just allow your loved ones to starve like that without asking him why he does not act?

Regards
DL

You have just done what you have just accused CWH of.

To quote your own words; "pathetic" You cannot hold a good conversation. How can you be an Illuminati with such ignorance as you display?