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Eddy_P

11-19-2012, 10:52 PM

What is the Book with Seven Seals ?

The ‘Seven Seals’ is a phrase in the Book of Revelation (Christian Bible) that refers to seven seals that secure the book or scroll, that John on Patmos Island (in 95 CE) saw as part of his Revelation of Jesus Christ.

This ‘book’ seen by John was held in the hand of a visiting Angel and contained ‘visions’ of the future.

Those ‘visions’ are specifically documented by John, as he was told by the Angel to write down what he saw and what he was told.

When John’s account in the Book of Revelation is examined, those ‘vision’ descriptions can easily be extracted and listed.

So, in 95 CE on the Greek island of Patmos (while in exile) John was visited by an Angel who held a physical ‘book of the future’, was shown its contents, and was told to write it all down - which he did.

But he is not the only biblical writer to tell a story about a personal encounter with an Angel showing or explaining the contents from a ‘book of the future’.

Ezekiel and Daniel (from the Hebrew Old Testament) both chronicle similar stories and relate similar ‘visions’ which they sometimes called ‘dreams’.

Australian researcher Ronald Pegg went in search of this ‘future book’ by extracting its documented attributes and described contents from those three biblical eye witnesses, and made an astounding discovery.

When over 200 attributes and biblical descriptions are compared with the contents of a certain modern history ‘book’ - there is over a 90 percent match of details.

Ronald Pegg claims to have FOUND and identified the ‘future history book, Sealed with Seven Seals’ as documented and described by biblical eyewitnesses.

- - - - - - - -
I am posting this on behalf of the Publisher that intends to develop this project.
- - - - - - - -

Hello there.
I am the publisher who is going to reveal Mr Pegg’s discoveries to the world - if they can be validated.

While I understand this is a religious topic, the validation process needs to be conducted scholastically, so non-religious people can also view the evidence and come to an informed conclusion.

To this end I am asking for your help.

I wish to present what I have so far, and ask for comments regarding Mr Pegg’s testing process, and of course later, his conclusions.

Edited to add: PART TWO, the evaluation of descriptions with a modern ‘book’, is now available.

LINK: http://www.tt2012.com.au/discovery_3r/observation.html

Richard Amiel McGough

11-20-2012, 03:08 PM

Australian researcher Ronald Pegg went in search of this ‘future book’ by extracting its documented attributes and described contents from those three biblical eye witnesses, and made an astounding discovery.

When over 200 attributes and biblical descriptions are compared with the contents of a certain modern history ‘book’ - there is over a 90 percent match of details.

Ronald Pegg claims to have FOUND and identified the ‘future history book, Sealed with Seven Seals’ as documented and described by biblical eyewitnesses.

- - - - - - - -
I am posting this on behalf of the Publisher that intends to develop this project.
- - - - - - - -

LINK: http://www.tt2012.com.au/discovery_3r/observation.html
Hey there Eddy_P,

Welcome to our forum!

:welcome:

I took a look at the link, but I was left hanging. Is there a page that reveals the specific identity of the book? The pages I looked at merely showed correspondences between the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation so there wasn't anything new there.

Also, have you ever heard of Preterism? I think it's the best fit to the Biblical data. It seems pretty obvious that Christ and Revelation were talking about events that would happen in 70 AD when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed.

Looking forward to talking more,

Richard

Eddy_P

11-20-2012, 05:52 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

11-20-2012, 07:15 PM

Also, have you ever heard of Preterism? I think it's the best fit to the Biblical data.
I have now.
Other research to which I have access shows that line of thinking somewhat incorrect.
But the Pope as the anti-Christ is correct.

You had the original religious movement that perceived Jesus to be ‘God’ to whom one prayed and worshipped.
Then the Roman Emperor/Catholic Church (with a religious leader of Pope rather than a military Emperor) invented ‘mother of God’, Purgatory, Saints, etc.
They also ‘changed times’ and ‘changed laws’, with the period from the fall of Rome (in 546 CE) to a brand name change of the Holy Roman Church (in 1806) being 1,260 years.

Hey there Eddy,

The web is filled with folks with contrary opinions. Case in point: there are about a billion Catholics who would take exception with your conclusion about the Pope.

If you only now have learned about Preterism, you will need to do a lot of research before you could reasonably have any confidence that those pages you read were accurate. In my experience, the Futurist hermeneutics are extremely weak. I've never seen one that could support his case.

It sounds like you have elements of the Historicist interpretation popularized by the Protestant reformers. They are the ones popularized the idea of the Pope as Antichrist that reigned for 1260 years. The Seventh Day Adventists are also into this view. I know there are some interesting coincidences, but it doesn't really pan out in my estimation.

Hello Richard

The ‘correspondences between the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation’ is just the first part of the evaluation process.

It seems that religious people have different opinions regarding what the Bw7s actually was, so we are seeking a list of attributes and descriptions from the cited texts that accurately provide details re the Bw7s.

We do not want to include incorrect nor incomplete details on our website.

The point of this first post of mine plus the three active sections on the linked website is to have people advise / comment / tell us whether what we have listed is a fair and accurate extraction of biblical details of the Bw7s.

Once we have an agreed LIST, we can then check all these biblical descriptions with modern history books - in search for the ‘same book’ that was taken back to the past by a special time messenger (called an Angel in the Bible and other sacred texts, and named Gabriel in two of them).

I think the extra-biblical historical book that best fits Revelation is The Wars of the Jews by first century historian Josephus. Have you read it? You would be amazed at how his description of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD fits with the Biblical data.

Yeah, sorry about that, but as explained, we want to get our facts straight first.

Were any of the listed extractions way off, or is the LIST a good specific summary of what John saw and described in 95 CE ?
The date of 95 CE is pushed as dogma by Futurists because its the only way they can destroy the connection with 70 AD.

I find the style of that website rather tedious. I have no reason to evaluate the list if I don't know what conclusions it is supposed to be supporting. Words have meaning only in context. The first thing anyone who wants to teach a doctrine about the "identity of the book sealed with seven seals" is to speak clearly and directly. State the conclusion so the evidence can be evaluated. No one has time to jump through unnecessary hoops. So can you state the conclusion? That would be very interesting.

All the best,

Richard

weeder

11-20-2012, 08:04 PM

Eddy_P

11-22-2012, 05:15 AM

…Case in point: there are about a billion Catholics who would take exception with your conclusion about the Pope.
My words referencing “the Pope as the anti-Christ” are taken from Wikipedia regarding Preterism, where they say “The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope with the Anti-Christ”.
It is not my conclusion, but a paraphrasing.
My other comments are based upon Reports presented by Mr Pegg who gave citations for his statements.
I have checked his citations, and in various history books, it clearly states, names, and dates, etc, where the various Popes, and when, where, and why - they created the various ‘parts’ of their new Christian Religion.

I have no reason to evaluate the list if I don't know what conclusions it is supposed to be supporting. Words have meaning only in context.
Respectfully, I have to disagree.
If one searches an ancient text with a preconceived idea, they will most likely find something that is similar to, or with a little ‘interpretation’ comes close to what they want to hear and/or find.
As cases in point, I refer to the past religious history covering two millenium where ‘different Christian Religions’ each claim that ‘their way’, or ‘their interpretation’ of the Bible is correct.
Your reference to the various ways in looking into the Book of Revelations such as Preterism also reveals this manner of finding what certain groups are seeking.

The context needs to come from the words themselves.
The words supply the evidence, upon which a conclusion may be formulated.

You can not first have a conclusion (ie. what you want to find) as this sets the context which if one goes looking, can be found in misinterpreted and mistranslated words. Again, I cite the various ‘Bibles’ of the various Christian Denominations and Sects who have ‘translated’ and ‘interpreted’ the Bible’s words ‘their way’.

The first thing anyone who wants to teach a doctrine about the "identity of the book sealed with seven seals" is to speak clearly and directly. State the conclusion so the evidence can be evaluated.
RE: “anyone who wants to teach a doctrine”
I am not wanting to teach a doctrine.
I am conducting an evaluation to FIND ‘the identity of the Book with Seven Seals’.

The linked website is speaking clearly and directly.
A Conclusion is the final step in the process, not the first - that is why it does not yet appear on the website.

The ‘observation’ page states what Mr Pegg found and noted from the Book of Revelation plus his question.

The ‘deduction’ summary page clearly states Mr Pegg’s premise with the ‘deduction explained’ page clearly following Mr Pegg’s thought process which derived the premise.

The ‘Ezekiel, Daniel, and John: deduction’ pages extract the data from the Bible which will become the evidence upon which the conclusion will be based, and hence upon what the search parameters will be, in order to seek out a modern book that matches the biblically described ‘Book with Seven Seals’.

The ‘LIST deduction’ page lists all the verses from the biblical books of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation that have been extracted because they are directly relating to attributes or descriptions of the contents of the Book with Seven Seals. This is the base data evidence. (Is this list correct ? This is one of the tasks with which I am seeking help.)

The evidence has to be evaluated before a conclusion can be reached.

The publisher has clearly stated “I wish to present what I have so far, and ask for comments regarding Mr Pegg’s testing process”.

So, presented to you, on the linked website, is Mr Pegg’s: premise and how he came to that premise; what he believes to be the data extracted from the Bible in reference to the Book with Seven Seals; and what he did with that extracted data (the evidence).

What the evidence derives will be the Conclusion (the next step), but at this stage of the process, the first step is to check that Mr Pegg has in fact extracted important and relevant descriptions from the Bible.

That is the point of the OP and the task asked of you: Are the verses selected by Ronald Pegg fair, reasonable, and relevant ?

Once we have an accepted LIST of verses, they will be declared the EVIDENCE, and the search for the Book with Seven Seals will commence.
ie. the evidence will be compiled and evaluated, then a Conclusion will be sought.

It sounds like you have elements of the Historicist interpretation popularized by the Protestant reformers. They are the ones popularized the idea of the Pope as Antichrist that reigned for 1260 years. The Seventh Day Adventists are also into this view. I know there are some interesting coincidences, but it doesn't really pan out in my estimation.

The research I have checked does not reference the Protestant reformers nor The Seventh Day Adventists.
Mr Pegg has taken the words directly from the Bible, and directly checked what they say to history books.
The activities documented in history books exactly* match to biblical descriptions.
* ie. they are not ‘coincidences’.

Eddy_P

11-22-2012, 05:40 AM

:yo: Ed

An Angel never even laid his hand on the book. The book was in God the Fathers hand and it was God the Son who took it. He is the only one who can open it.:winking0071:

5 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”

He has still got the book.
You seem to be quoting the KJV Bible or similar.
Are you aware that the Old English 1611 KJV Bible does not necessarily portray the original intended Greek (and Hebrew) meanings ?

Words have been added to ‘make it read in English’.
Sentence syntax has been rearranged to ‘make it read in English’.
Chapters and verses have been added ‘to make it easier to read’.

Any one of the above changes the context and meaning by associating a different verb with a noun, etc., when the words were ‘rearranged, added, and ‘made easier to read’.

In his works Mr Ronald Pegg warns of this, and strongly suggests that people first check in an interlinear Hebrew/Greek Bible to put those words ‘back in their original word order’, then gain the original intended words of the Bible from the Lexicons of Strong’s Concordance so that they may actually read, now in original word order, what the biblical writer was describing, and not what some religious scribe/translator thought it was saying, based upon his own predetermined mind set, often hundreds of years after the secondhand stories were first written down.

weeder

11-22-2012, 07:35 PM

You seem to be quoting the KJV Bible or similar.
Are you aware that the Old English 1611 KJV Bible does not necessarily portray the original intended Greek (and Hebrew) meanings ?

Words have been added to ‘make it read in English’.
Sentence syntax has been rearranged to ‘make it read in English’.
Chapters and verses have been added ‘to make it easier to read’.

Any one of the above changes the context and meaning by associating a different verb with a noun, etc., when the words were ‘rearranged, added, and ‘made easier to read’.

In his works Mr Ronald Pegg warns of this, and strongly suggests that people first check in an interlinear Hebrew/Greek Bible to put those words ‘back in their original word order’, then gain the original intended words of the Bible from the Lexicons of Strong’s Concordance so that they may actually read, now in original word order, what the biblical writer was describing, and not what some religious scribe/translator thought it was saying, based upon his own predetermined mind set, often hundreds of years after the secondhand stories were first written down.

Its the NASB. Im surprised that you didnt really know it wasnt the kjv.

So the translation that reads that the book was in Gods hand...that nobody in heaven or earth could open and look into it...was taken by the lamb as he is the only one who can utilise the book...is wrong?

Rather you believe that the Angel had the book, left it here on earth..for men to look into.

Eddy_P

11-22-2012, 10:32 PM

Its the NASB. Im surprised that you didnt really know it wasnt the kjv.
I assumed it wasn’t, but did not go looking for exactly which one it was. This is why I said “seem to be” with the disclaimer of “or similar”.
I wanted to introduce the KJV Bible into the discussion so I referenced it in my first sentence, as that version Bible and any subsequent English ones (including the NASB) have the same inherent problems.

Rather you believe that the Angel had the book…
When the parallel stories from Ezekiel, Daniel, and John (as presented on the chart on the linked website, ‘deductions’ page) are evaluated, a composite encounter with an Angel, holding the same special ‘book of future’, written within and from the backside, being a roll of a book, sealed with seven seals, is being described.

It is not that I believe* this - but it is what the biblical stories state**.

* “to “believe” is to have an opinion.
** what is “stated”- is a fact.

Each of those named biblical prophets then go on to describe the contents of that special ‘book’ in various ways, such as ‘in visions’ and/or ‘dreams’.

The Angel is sometimes called ‘an elder’, an ‘angel’, a saint, or is not specifically identified, but in the corresponding text by one of the other of the three, an Angel is cited as being present.
As I said, when a composite story is complied from the three named biblical prophets who all tell a similar story of an encounter with a messenger (of God) associated with a special book, what one does not necessarily say, one or both of the others do mention.
eg. Two say it was a ‘Book 'written within and from behind', one says it was a 'roll' of a book, and another says the Book had Seven Seals.
As they are all chronicling the same ‘book’, we now have a better description of it.
Not only is it ‘written within and from behind, having seven seals’ it is specifically a ‘roll of a book’.

…had the book, left it here on earth..for men to look into.
It was not left on earth, it was personally on a one to one basis, shown to the cited three prophets (and while not mentioned in the texts, taken away by the angel when he left).

Again, I do not believe this - as it is a stated fact in the text:
Rev 1:1-2 "...he sent...his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record...of all things that he saw".
Rev 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen...".
This shows an Angel was physically present; John was to bare witness; of all the things he was shown; and was to write it down; being the contents of that book shown to him….

Rev 5:1 "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."
(While this infers the Angel was sitting on the throne holding the sealed book, this may not be the case.)

So the translation that reads that the book was in Gods hand...that nobody in heaven or earth could open and look into it...was taken by the lamb as he is the only one who can utilise the book...is wrong?
Yes. The translation does not reflect the original context nor meaning.

The problems with the KJV Bible (and the NASB you cited) is that:
- They are in English.
- The written words are someone’s (ie. a modern person with a modern religious bias) translation and interpretation.
- The original New Testament texts no longer exist. We are unable to check their validity.
- KJV for example: words have been added to ‘make it read’ in English.
- Sentence syntax has been rearranged to ‘make it read in English’.
- Chapters and verses have been added ‘to make it easier to read’.
- all these have changed the context and meaning (in various places).
- they can be traced back to the Roman Vulgate Bible.

It would be nice to view the original texts, but that is just not going to happen.

Let us look at the verse you cited earlier.
Revelation 5:1 “I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.”
Interlinear reference source (http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-1.htm)

Greek word “in” (Strong’s # 1909) actually means ‘on’ not ‘in’.
Greek word “right hand” (Strong’s #1188) actually means ‘the right side’. source (http://concordances.org/strongs/greek/1188.htm)

Greek word “of him that” (Strong’s # 3588) actually means ‘the, this, that, one, he, she, it’. source (http://concordances.org/strongs/greek/3588.htm)

So..
“I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book...”
originally meant and read as
I saw on the right side; he/she/it sat on the throne; a book...

The printed Bibles and the one on the internet cite the given (accepted) religious translation, not the original Greek meaning and context.
The ‘book’ is the subject of the verse.
Thus it was the ‘book’ that sat on the throne, on the right side - and not the Angel nor God (inferred by the misuse and mistranslation of “him who”).

This is just one verse from the Bible.
Of the first five words in the verse, three of them have been translated incorrectly.
The context was changed from ‘the Book on the throne’ to inferring ‘someone’ sat on the throne.

This is why I am very carefully first presenting, verse by verse, word by word, an evaluation of extractions made by Ronald Pegg.
Is he correct when he says the 1611 Old English scribes (and subsequent religious people) who translated and interpreted the Bible, have not necessarily chosen the correct meaning of the Bible’s original words during their translation process ?

Checking with an Interlinear Transliterated Bible then comparing the KJV’s words to those given in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance confirms Mr Pegg’s claim.

Richard Amiel McGough

11-23-2012, 12:45 PM

Good morning Eddy,

My words referencing “the Pope as the anti-Christ” are taken from Wikipedia regarding Preterism, where they say “The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants, who identified the Pope with the Anti-Christ”.
It is not my conclusion, but a paraphrasing.

If it was not your conclusion, why did you say "the Pope as the anti-Christ is correct"? Is that not your conclusion?

I have no reason to evaluate the list if I don't know what conclusions it is supposed to be supporting. Words have meaning only in context.
Respectfully, I have to disagree.
If one searches an ancient text with a preconceived idea, they will most likely find something that is similar to, or with a little ‘interpretation’ comes close to what they want to hear and/or find.
As cases in point, I refer to the past religious history covering two millenium where ‘different Christian Religions’ each claim that ‘their way’, or ‘their interpretation’ of the Bible is correct.
Your reference to the various ways in looking into the Book of Revelations such as Preterism also reveals this manner of finding what certain groups are seeking.

The context needs to come from the words themselves.
The words supply the evidence, upon which a conclusion may be formulated.

You can not first have a conclusion (ie. what you want to find) as this sets the context which if one goes looking, can be found in misinterpreted and mistranslated words. Again, I cite the various ‘Bibles’ of the various Christian Denominations and Sects who have ‘translated’ and ‘interpreted’ the Bible’s words ‘their way’.

I agree that preconceived ideas blind people to evidence - I see that happening every day, especially relating to religious and political topics. Not so much in science, though it happens there too since science is a human endeavor. But my point stands. It is silly and tedious to present a long list of "evidence" when in fact your claims have nothing to do with that evidence. You seem to forget that you are living in the 21st century. It took me only a moment to find out what your claims are. You would have more credibility with me if you just stated plainly what you mean rather than making me jump through your hoops.

Your claims are explained on many pages of the internet. For example, this page has a video explaining the central claim that a TIME TRAVELER went back in time and showed the contents of a modern CD ROM entitled "Ancient Civilizations of the Mediterranean" to the authors of texts such as Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation ... and even the Book of Mormon! This is your claim, and this is why your lists of facts relating to those books is meaningless. None of those facts support your claims.

The claims are patently absurd. Just look what what is written on the Observation (http://www.worldbreakingdiscoveries.com.au/discovery_3/observation.html) page which has this picture and description:

656

Was Pegg imagining things - or are the things listed in the Bible verses actually in the above picture ?

Check it for yourself now...

a sea of glass, like crystal

Yes, there is a glistening Sea

four beasts - in the middle
and round about

Yes, there are 4 animal icons in the
middle of the picture, with another
around the edge to the top left.

like a lion yes.

like a calf yes.

face of a man yes.

like a flying eagle yes*

* A 'flying eagle' soars up in the sky. The verse says "like an eagle" and not that it was an eagle,
thus the Arrow up in the sky does look somewhat like a flying eagle.

Was Pegg imagining things? ABSOLUTELY! Nothing could be more obvious. There is no "calf" in that picture. The image is of a female wolf with teats that fed Romulus and Remus. And there is no eagle. But even if those animals did exist, it wouldn't support your claims which are profoundly ridiculous. For example, here is something you posted on another forum (http://timetravelinstitute.com/threads/there-was-no-god-there-was-no-creation-proof.6587/):

Eddy_P: The Hebrew word LORD (YH-WH) is the ancient vocalization of the name of the United Nations when sounded as ‘U-N’. The letters ‘UN’ are seen during the disk presentation and the words ‘United Nations’ are spoken.

Where did you get the idea that the consonants YH-WH could be sounded as "U-N"? That's absurd. Such absurdities saturate your claims. I really would like to know how it is possible that you could believe any of the stuff you post.

Here is a video where you explain your claims:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hqQKH66BAR4

RE: “anyone who wants to teach a doctrine”
I am not wanting to teach a doctrine.
I am conducting an evaluation to FIND ‘the identity of the Book with Seven Seals’.

Right - and that "book" was a 1990s CD took to the past, along with a 1990s PC, by time travelers. And the evidence? Ambiguous bits and pieces cherry picked and forced to fit a preconceived idea. Wow.

The linked website is speaking clearly and directly.
A Conclusion is the final step in the process, not the first - that is why it does not yet appear on the website.

The ‘observation’ page states what Mr Pegg found and noted from the Book of Revelation plus his question.

The ‘deduction’ summary page clearly states Mr Pegg’s premise with the ‘deduction explained’ page clearly following Mr Pegg’s thought process which derived the premise.

The ‘Ezekiel, Daniel, and John: deduction’ pages extract the data from the Bible which will become the evidence upon which the conclusion will be based, and hence upon what the search parameters will be, in order to seek out a modern book that matches the biblically described ‘Book with Seven Seals’.

The ‘LIST deduction’ page lists all the verses from the biblical books of Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation that have been extracted because they are directly relating to attributes or descriptions of the contents of the Book with Seven Seals. This is the base data evidence. (Is this list correct ? This is one of the tasks with which I am seeking help.)

The evidence has to be evaluated before a conclusion can be reached.

As I explained, your methodology is both tedious and fallacious. Claims like yours cannot be evaluated until you have stated the claims. All your "observations" are meaningless because I agree with the facts but not your interpretation of them.

So, presented to you, on the linked website, is Mr Pegg’s: premise and how he came to that premise; what he believes to be the data extracted from the Bible in reference to the Book with Seven Seals; and what he did with that extracted data (the evidence).

What the evidence derives will be the Conclusion (the next step), but at this stage of the process, the first step is to check that Mr Pegg has in fact extracted important and relevant descriptions from the Bible.

That is the point of the OP and the task asked of you: Are the verses selected by Ronald Pegg fair, reasonable, and relevant ?

Once we have an accepted LIST of verses, they will be declared the EVIDENCE, and the search for the Book with Seven Seals will commence.
ie. the evidence will be compiled and evaluated, then a Conclusion will be sought.

Like I said, the "list" has nothing to do with the claims because the claims are based on wildly irrational interpretations of the things in the list.

The research I have checked does not reference the Protestant reformers nor The Seventh Day Adventists.
Mr Pegg has taken the words directly from the Bible, and directly checked what they say to history books.
The activities documented in history books exactly* match to biblical descriptions.
* ie. they are not ‘coincidences’.
They are nothing but "coincidences" and worse - total misrepresentations, as with the wolf that is identified as a "calf" on the page cited above.

I am truly mystified by how anyone could believe anything you have posted. It feels like a prank, but I can't imagine why anyone would put such effort into a prank.

In any case, thanks for adding to my collection of internet insanity.

Richard

Eddy_P

11-25-2012, 12:41 AM

Hello Richard

If it was not your conclusion, why did you say "the Pope as the anti-Christ is correct"? Is that not your conclusion?
You introduced me to the Pope and anti-Christ associations via your question and comment
Also, have you ever heard of Preterism? I think it's the best fit to the Biblical data.I searched ‘Preterism’ and found it on the internet. On that page they state the association between the Pope and anti-Christ.
You stated your opinion that “Preterism” fits best with Biblical Data.
I responded with
I have now.
Other research to which I have access shows that line of thinking somewhat incorrect.
But the Pope as the anti-Christ is correct.indicating I disagreed with what they say and your opinion of it, except for the Pope and anti-Christ association which they state.
I then went on to explain that Ronald Pegg’s work confirms the Pope and anti-Christ association with an extraction of details from his work
You had the original religious movement that perceived Jesus to be ‘God’ to whom one prayed and worshipped.
Then the Roman Emperor/Catholic Church (with a religious leader of Pope rather than a military Emperor) invented ‘mother of God’, Purgatory, Saints, etc.
They also ‘changed times’ and ‘changed laws’, with the period from the fall of Rome (in 546 CE) to a brand name change of the Holy Roman Church (in 1806) being 1,260 years.
So no, it wasn’t my conclusion.
Having said that, historical data does match to biblical descriptions, thus I support Mr Pegg’s conclusion.

Your claims are explained on many pages of the internet. For example, this page has a video explaining the central claim that a TIME TRAVELER went back in time and showed the contents of a modern CD ROM entitled "Ancient Civilizations of the Mediterranean" to the authors of texts such as Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation ... and even the Book of Mormon! This is your claim, and this is why your lists of facts relating to those books is meaningless. None of those facts support your claims.You have sourced out the non-religious presentation of Ronald Pegg’s Discoveries and Findings. (ie. his claims).
The OP is not about Time Travel from a modern perspective.
It is referenced from three biblical writers who had encounters with an Angel holding a special ‘book’ as chronicled in those ancient texts.
In one ancient text it is called the Book with Seven Seals.
The Quest is from an ancient perspective and levels of understanding.
The Quest has to employ the evidence contained in the ancient texts, not what we think in the 21st century.
As I have already previously comprehensively explained on this forum the how and why of the Quest (and it is on the Religious pages linked in the OP) I will not repeat myself.

Eddy_P: The Hebrew word LORD (YH-WH) is the ancient vocalization of the name of the United Nations when sounded as ‘U-N’. The letters ‘UN’ are seen during the disk presentation and the words ‘United Nations’ are spoken.

Where did you get the idea that the consonants YH-WH could be sounded as "U-N"? That's absurd.
That is part of other findings by Ronald Pegg associated with another CD-Rom that was taken back in time.
In the Bible this second cd-rom is called a ‘Watcher’.
Looking at the pictures from the first cd-rom are called ‘visions’.

Ambiguous bits and pieces cherry picked and forced to fit a preconceived idea.
No.
The Quest in relation to the OP has extracted 8 Book attributes and 51 vision descriptions from the Book of Revelation, 5 Book attributes and 96 vision descriptions from the Book of Ezekiel, and 69 dream and vision descriptions from the Book of Daniel.
A total of over 215 biblical descriptions (the LIST of data) will be presented to compare with a modern history book.and its contents.
215 sequential pieces of data from verses in three books of the Bible is not ambiguous cherry picked bits and pieces.
They ARE the ancient descriptions documented by the ancient writers.
Ronald Pegg has found the contents of modern cd-roms and their contents chronicled in over 20 other ancient texts.
Thousands of extracted relevant descriptions from over 30 ancient texts is not cherry picking.

Claims like yours cannot be evaluated until you have stated the claims. All your "observations" are meaningless because I agree with the facts but not your interpretation of them.
By ‘claims’ I think you mean ‘hypothesis’.
Mr Pegg’s Hypothesis in relation to his non-religious webpages (the ones you ‘found’ on the internet) is clearly stated
IF we examine and extract 'dream' and/or 'vision' accounts from Ancient Texts that
• are first person accounts by named ancient persons, and
• are reported first hand encounters with an ANGEL(S)
• and relate that either
• the ANGEL(S) spoke with the person,
• the person was told to write down what they saw and what they were told, or
• the ANGEL held a special 'scroll' or 'book', and/or
• the ANGEL gave a special 'scroll' or 'book' to the person, or
• the angel was named GABRIEL

THEN we will find the imagery and contents of the 1995 produced Ancient Civilizations of the Mediterranean
multi-media cd-rom described and documented in the those 'dream' and/or 'vision' accounts.

Mr Pegg’s Deduction process in relation to his religious webpages (the Book with Seven Seals) is also clearly stated
IF we identify noted physical attributes of the 'sealed book' and extract described 'visions' and 'dreams' seen from within this special 'book' as documented by John in the Book of Revelation and by Ezekiel and Daniel from the Old Testament, we will have a LIST of 'things' to compare to the contents of modern books in order for us to search for a match.

From a non-religious perspective I had to check Pegg’s general Time Travel Discoveries work to see if his methods met the scientific method. My report is here… How a Study Criterion was Compiled (http://www.tt2012.com.au/PPHC-SG/timetravel/index.html)

For other forum members who are following the OPs ‘Book with Seven Seals’ quest, the ‘Evaluation, Testing, and Conclusion’ pages will be opened in early December 2012.
I will advise here when they are available.

For those members who wish to ‘jump right in’ to Ronald Pegg’s Time Travel Discoveries (now that Richard has ‘let the cat out of the bag’) the main website may be found by searching for worldbreakingdiscoveries.com.au

Richard Amiel McGough

11-25-2012, 10:16 AM

Hello Richard

If it was not your conclusion, why did you say "the Pope as the anti-Christ is correct"? Is that not your conclusion?
You introduced me to the Pope and anti-Christ associations via your question and commentI searched ‘Preterism’ and found it on the internet.

On that page they state the association between the Pope and anti-Christ.

You stated your opinion that “Preterism” fits best with Biblical Data.

I responded withindicating I disagreed with what they say and your opinion of it, except for the Pope and anti-Christ association which they state.

I then went on to explain that Ronald Pegg’s work confirms the Pope and anti-Christ association with an extraction of details from his work

So no, it wasn’t my conclusion.

Having said that, historical data does match to biblical descriptions, thus I support Mr Pegg’s conclusion.

Hey there Eddy, :yo:

It seems like you are parsing words too much. I understand that your conclusion did not originate with you. But when you agreed with Pegg's conclusion and stated your conclusion that he is correct you have concluded the same thing and so it is your conclusion too.

It would be best if we didn't trip ourselves up with words.

Eddy_P: The Hebrew word LORD (YH-WH) is the ancient vocalization of the name of the United Nations when sounded as ‘U-N’. The letters ‘UN’ are seen during the disk presentation and the words ‘United Nations’ are spoken.

Where did you get the idea that the consonants YH-WH could be sounded as "U-N"? That's absurd.
That is part of other findings by Ronald Pegg associated with another CD-Rom that was taken back in time.
In the Bible this second cd-rom is called a ‘Watcher’.
Looking at the pictures from the first cd-rom are called ‘visions’.

You didn't answer my question. Where did you (or Pegg) get the idea that YH-WH was pronounced "UN"? I've never seen any evidence for that pronunciation, and it makes no sense to me at all.

No.
The Quest in relation to the OP has extracted 8 Book attributes and 51 vision descriptions from the Book of Revelation, 5 Book attributes and 96 vision descriptions from the Book of Ezekiel, and 69 dream and vision descriptions from the Book of Daniel.
A total of over 215 biblical descriptions (the LIST of data) will be presented to compare with a modern history book.and its contents.
215 sequential pieces of data from verses in three books of the Bible is not ambiguous cherry picked bits and pieces.
They ARE the ancient descriptions documented by the ancient writers.
Ronald Pegg has found the contents of modern cd-roms and their contents chronicled in over 20 other ancient texts.
Thousands of extracted relevant descriptions from over 30 ancient texts is not cherry picking.

The supposed "connections" between those "215 biblical descriptions" and the CD about Mediterranean Civilizations are entirely arbitrary and absurd. He said that the wolf that nurtured Romulus and Remus in Roman mythology represents the Calf/Ox cherub of Revelation/Ezekiel! And he said an abstract triangle represented the Flying Eagle. That means 50% of his claims about the four beasts are erroneous right off the bat, on his first page. It is obvious that he just makes up whatever he wants to fit it to his preconceived idea.

How is it possible that you could think that any serious thinker would be convinced by his theory? It has more holes than Swiss Cheese. It is a classic textbook case of pareidolia.

Please don't take offense at my plain speech, as none is intended. But life is too short to play games with truth, so I'm telling you exactly what I think is the truth concerning Mr. Pegg's theories.

All the very best,

Richard

Eddy_P

11-25-2012, 10:32 PM

Although totally off topic…
Where did you (or Pegg) get the idea that YH-WH was pronounced "UN"? I've never seen any evidence for that pronunciation, and it makes no sense to me at all.
Hey Richard.
{the following extract used with permission*}

The word – LORD
Ronald Pegg claims that the word cited in the Bible as LORD and pronounced as YH-WH refers to the United Nations, as it is spoken in this war presentation {from the Grolier CD-ROM } and the letters U.N. are seen on the screen at the point of the presentation where the biblical account says that Moses heard the name of the LORD.
.
{snip}
.
Ronald Pegg's Conclusion
Moses states the name of God as “I AM“. When the Hebrew written letters are sounded as a vocalization, it is said by the NIV Study Bible scholars that “I-AM“ sounds much like “Yh-Wh”.
When U-N is sounded out with a Middle Eastern accent, it also sounds like YH-WH and “I-AM“.

Moses interpreted the spoken words ‘United Nations’ as the name UN, being the letters he saw on the screen, and pronounced YhWh in his ancient dialect.
Therefore the Lord of the Bible, YH-WH (hence “God”) = the UN (ie. the United Nations.)

The religious story says that the Hebrew God told the Hebrew prophet Moses his name - YH-Wh (I-AM). But what actually occurred was the person Moses being told about the United Nations authorising the removal of Iraq from Kuwait by force (ie. the 1991 Persian Gulf War) by the narrator from the Grolier CD-ROM.
(* Source: pp126-127, World Breaking Discoveries - A New Era Begins, Adelaide, South Australia, 2007)

He said that the wolf that nurtured Romulus and Remus in Roman mythology represents the Calf/Ox cherub of Revelation/Ezekiel!
As the LIST and CONDUCT TEST pages are not yet available on the cited religious website, you have not been able to read an explanation regarding the She-Wolf icon.
By jumping to a different website, you have broken the process of examination regarding the Book with Seven Seals Quest and have prematurely introduced other elements.
You may find an explanation regarding the She-Wolf icon representing a Calf HERE ( http://www.worldbreakingdiscoveries.com.au/discovery_3/calf_info.html) (which has been added to the page that you ‘found’ so others who also do not conduct the TEST may be informed beforehand.)

The supposed "connections" between those "215 biblical descriptions" and the CD about Mediterranean Civilizations are entirely arbitrary and absurd.You have not yet conducted the TEST evaluation for the 215 listed biblical descriptions, thus your comments are premature and without an informed basis.

That means 50% of his claims about the four beasts are erroneous right off the bat, on his first page…It has more holes than Swiss Cheese.
No.
{Regarding the off-topic webpage you visited} On ‘his first page’ two verses from Revelations are cited, with 8 extracted descriptions.
As you state, two of the 4 beasts are not EXACTLY what John says, but he does not say they ARE a ‘calf’ and a ‘flying eagle’.
6 out of 8 ARE correct - that is 75 percent correct, more than enough to warrant further investigation.
This goes up if you accept Pegg’s explanations.

How is it possible that you could think that any serious thinker would be convinced by his theory?By expecting serious thinkers to explore all possibilities and seriously conduct the Test Evaluation - BEFORE coming to a conclusion.

Eight extracted descriptions from two verses from one book of the Bible is NOT a very good base sample from which to form any conclusion. (Using just the four beasts is even less.)
This is why the Book with Seven Seals Quest referenced here on your forum includes, from three different biblical prophets from different countries and time periods, 11 extracted Book Attributes, 160 Vision and Dream Descriptions, plus 49 Measurements of specifically described buildings.

Words uttered in a ‘theory’ are just the prelude.
The TESTING of the available extracted evidence is from what an informed conclusion can be derived.
Early in December 2012 the Interactive TEST Evaluation session will be available on-line.
At that point you will be able to click NO to the ‘Calf’ and ‘Flying Eagle’ comparisons as well as lodging your views for the other 210 or so extracted descriptions.
The page will automatically calculate your percentage score.

Please don't take offense at my plain speech, as none is intended. But life is too short to play games with truth, so I'm telling you exactly what I think is the truth concerning Mr. Pegg's theories.No offence taken.
Current comments regarding Pegg’s ‘theories’ are similar to yours.
Regarding the search for ‘truth’.
Citations of a ‘theory’ and just saying ‘it is cherry picking’ - does not debunk it.
Not conducting any tests of Ronald Pegg’s ‘evidence’ and saying it is ‘entirely arbitrary and absurd’ - does not debunk it.

You have said “I'm telling you exactly what I think is the truth concerning Mr. Pegg's theories” which is OK, as I felt a similar negativity when I was first told, but the key to your comments are your words of “I think”.

You asked “How is it possible that you could think that any serious thinker would be convinced by his theory?”
In relation to me personally, as a serious thinker, I personally EVALUATED his work, disagreed with some of it, and confirmed most of it, then came to my own conclusion.
May I suggest you wait until December then evaluate Pegg’s ‘evidence’ too.

Cheers,
Eddy

murellrios

11-26-2012, 05:37 AM

I guess there are too many opinions on this as it is quite true because there are various people around the world who follow Christianity. I do feel that there can not be a perfect conclusion of this topic because everyone has got their own version.

.................................................. ..........

publishing a book (http://www.authorlink.com/)

Gil

11-26-2012, 02:22 PM

Howdy there Weeder,

Originally Posted by weeder
So the translation that reads that the book was in Gods hand...that nobody in heaven or earth could open and look into it...was taken by the lamb as he is the only one who can utilise the book...is wrong?

Eddy > Yes. The translation does not reflect the original context nor meaning.

The problems with the KJV Bible (and the NASB you cited) is that:

- They are in English.
- The written words are someone's (ie. a modern person with a modern religious bias) translation and interpretation.

- The original New Testament texts no longer exist. We are unable to check their validity.

- KJV for example: words have been added to 'make it read' in English.
- Sentence syntax has been rearranged to 'make it read in English'.
- Chapters and verses have been added 'to make it easier to read'.
- all these have changed the context and meaning (in various places).

- they can be traced back to the Roman Vulgate Bible.

It would be nice to view the original texts, but that is just not going to happen.

********************

Gil > > > > >

Eddy > [ - The original New Testament texts no longer exist. We are unable to check their validity.

It would be nice to view the original texts, but that is just not going to happen. ]

Gil >

The codex's Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrius are still extant and are the oldest of the Greek manuscripts. The King James translators did not use them because they were not available to them.
The authorized version 1611 ,like Luther's was made from Greek text which Erasmus in 1516 and Robert Stephens in 1550 ,had formed from manuscripts of later date than the tenth century.

Without going into a lot of detail, the oldest copies of the manuscripts approach a more accurate and true meaning given them by the Apostles themselves.
The date of the Vatican codex is not exactly known but was in their catalogof books in 1475. The Vatican places it in the mid 4th century.
The Alexandrian codex was seen to be written around mid 5th century.
The Sinaitic Codex was written early/mid 4th century and has the entire book of Barnabas and a portion of the Shepherd of Hermas.
The choice of most scholars as to conveying the words of the Apostles most accurately is the Sinaitic Codex. Second Vatican and thirdly Alexandrian.
There was an older one in the 2nd century called "Italic" . The Sinaitic is in close agreement with the "Italic" .

The regular King James is good enough for all practical purpose's.
The newer translations are a little bias in my opinion.
I have copies of all three .

Those mentioned above are as close as your going to get to originals without dealing in fragments. The Sinaiticus was written early/mid fourth century and considered the best.

Rev, 5:1 Sinaiticus :

" And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written in front and on the back side , sealed with seven seals ."

Note: "in front" not "within"

Rev. 5 : 7 Sinaiticus.:

"And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

It is clear that the Book was in the right hand of him.
Not the right side or on some kind of a bench or table on his right side.

I didn't bother to check him out further.

Gil :pop2:

Richard Amiel McGough

11-26-2012, 06:59 PM

Eddy_P

11-27-2012, 05:59 PM

I guess there are too many opinions on this as it is quite true because there are various people around the world who follow Christianity. I do feel that there can not be a perfect conclusion of this topic because everyone has got their own version.Yes, there are many different versions of the Bible.
BUT the Old Testament was written in Hebrew/Aramaic and the New Testament in Greek.
The three biblical writers DID have an encounter with an angel holding a ‘special book of the future’.
They knew what they were writing.

We need to seek out what the original Hebrew and Greek meanings actually meant and in what context, and not take at face value all the various ‘modern’ translations.

Eddy_P

12-11-2012, 02:22 AM

…..So, in 95 CE on the Greek island of Patmos (while in exile) John was visited by an Angel who held a physical ‘book of the future’, was shown its contents, and was told to write it all down - which he did.
…..
Australian researcher Ronald Pegg went in search of this ‘future book’ by extracting its documented attributes and described contents from those three biblical eye witnesses, and made an astounding discovery.
…..
Ronald Pegg claims to have FOUND and identified the ‘future history book, Sealed with Seven Seals’ as documented and described by biblical eyewitnesses…..
PART TWO, the evaluation of descriptions with a modern ‘book’, is now available.

LINK: http://www.tt2012.com.au/discovery_3r/observation.html

Eddy_P

01-31-2013, 03:48 AM

Research Update...
The BOOK with SEVEN SEALS - Found and Identified
.
If you have read the Website, conducted the on-line Evaluation (as per the OP), and viewed the Video, then please be advised that a F.A.Q. page (Frequently Asked Questions) is now available.
(You will find the link at the bottom of the website's pages.)

Direct link to main Study Website: http://www.tt2012.com.au/quest_book7seals/index.html