Evening? Morning? When does the Biblical Day Start? [Archive]

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Richard Amiel McGough

12-08-2007, 10:37 PM

I would like to test the Jewish tradition that the the Biblical day is reckoned from evening to evening against the testimony of Scripture. There is no explicit statement as such, and there is only one particular feast "day" that God commanded be celebtrated from "even to even." The commandment for the Day of Atonement states:
Leviticus 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. Concerning this verse, we have this comment from J. E. Hartley's entry in the Word Biblical Commentary:

This law says that the Day of Atonement is to be celebrated from evening to evening. This is the only place in this calendar where the precise time for a high day is set. This expression, being unique, bears emphasis. Whether other festivals began in the evening in ancient Israel is debated. Levine (161) cites Rashbam as a rabbi who argued that the Sabbath and other festivals began at dawn. Much later the rabbinic tradition established that all days begin in the evening.
Hartley, J. E. 2002. Word Biblical Commentary : Leviticus. Word Biblical Commentary. Vol. 4 (388). Word, Incorporated: Dallas
So it seems there has been some rabinical discussion as to when the day really starts.

This is important to me because I think the Jewish tradition is wrong. It feels like it clashes with Reality. In the Bible, the New Day always begins with the New Light, Hope, Freshness, His Mercies are new every MORNING. It doesn't begin just before the dark night falls. That idea is totally contrary to everything I sense in the Bible and Reality. The day begins with a burst of light like the first day of the creation week and ends with Rest just like the Sabbath on the last day of creation week.

So I want to know if there is any Biblical evidence that we should contort our minds to think of the day as beginning when it gets dark and we go to bed.

One reason to think that the day begins after the period of dark we call night is because otherwise the word tomorrow would mean "later this evening." So if at 3:00 PM I said I would be seeing you at 8:00PM that evening, I would say "I'll see you tomorrow at 8:00 PM." That just doesn't seem right.

I've been searching Scripture for light on this, but most of the verses dealing with days and mornings and evenings and nights are too ambiguous to be sure when the day starts. I am asking folks to post any verses they find (with brief explainations please!) that might help discern the truth.

Here is a good explanation I found in the famous commentary by Keil and Delitzsch:

'Thus evening was and morning was one day.' echad (one), like eis and unus, is used at the commencement of a numerical series for the ordinal primus (cf. Gen. 2:11; 4:19; 8:5, 15). Like the numbers of the days which follow, it is without the article, to show that the different days arose from the constant recurrence of evening and morning. It is not till the sixth and last day that the article is employed (v. 31), to indicate the termination of the work of creation upon that day. It is to be observed, that the days of creation are bounded by the coming of evening and morning. The first day did not consist of the primeval darkness and the origination of light, but was formed after the creation of the light by the first interchange of evening and morning. The first evening was not the gloom, which possibly preceded the full burst of light as it came forth from the primary darkness, and intervened between the darkness and full, broad daylight. It was not till after the light had been created, and the separation of the light from the darkness had taken place, that evening came, and after the evening the morning; and this coming of evening (lit., the obscure) and morning (the breaking) formed one, or the first day. It follows from this, that the days of creation are not reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning.The first day does not fully terminate till the light returns after the darkness of night; it is not till the break of the new morning that the first interchange of light and darkness is completed, and a [greek] has passed. The rendering, 'out of evening and morning there came one day,' is at variance with grammar, as well as with the actual fact. With grammar, because such a thought would require [hebrew] and with fact, because the time from evening to morning does not constitute a day, but the close of a day. The first day commenced at the moment when God caused the light to break forth from the darkness; but this light did not become a day, until the evening had come, and the darkness which set in with the evening had given place the next morning to the break of day. Again, neither the words [hebrew], nor the expression [hebrew] evening-morning (= day), in Dan. 8:14, corresponds to the Greek [greek], for morning is not equivalent to day, nor evening to night. The reckoning of days from evening to evening in the Mosaic law (Lev. 23:32), and by many ancient tribes (the pre-Mohammedan Arabs, the Athenians, Gauls, and Germans), arose not from the days of creation, but from the custom of regulating seasons by the changes of the moon. But if the days of creation are regulated by the recurring interchange of light and darkness, they must be regarded not as periods of time of incalculable duration, of years or thousands of years, but as simple earthly days. It is true the morning and evening of the first three days were not produced by the rising and setting of the sun, since the sun was not yet created; but the constantly recurring interchange of light and darkness, which produced day and night upon the earth, cannot for a moment be understood as denoting that the light called forth from the darkness of chaos returned to that darkness again, and thus periodically burst forth and disappeared. The only way in which we can represent it to ourselves, is by supposing that the light called forth by the creative mandate, 'Let there be,' was separated from the dark mass of the earth, and concentrated outside or above the globe, so that the interchange of light and darkness took place as soon as the dark chaotic mass began to rotate, and to assume in the process of creation the form of a spherical body. The time occupied in the first rotations of the earth upon its axis cannot, indeed, be measured by our hour-glass; but even if they were slower at first, and did not attain their present velocity till the completion of our solar system, this would make no essential difference between the first three days and the last three, which were regulated by the rising and setting of the sun.
Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. 2002. Commentary on the Old Testament. (1:31). Hendrickson: Peabody, MA

Richard

yeshua_seven

01-01-2008, 06:19 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

01-01-2008, 07:31 PM

I noticed something about the Day of Atonement a few verses before the one you posted. It says that the Day of Atonement is on the 10th day of the month, yet God tells them to begin to afflict their souls and begin the Sabbath in the evening on the 9th day. He then says the Sabbath ends on the evening of the following day, which would be the 10th day. Why not begin the Sabbath and the affliction of their souls on the 10th day?

First of all, I think one thing is clear in scripture and in history, and that is that the days according to Jewish reckoning in all of history are from 6 o'clock to 6'clock. The question is whether the day begins at 6am or 6pm.

Did you mean "sunrise" and "sunset" rather than 6am or 6pm? I ask because they are not always the same. Or were they back then in the ancient days, when people spoke of the first or second or third hour of the day? I don't really know much about how they kept time.

In any case, there are only two passages that seem to point to a sunset-to-sunset day. They are Gen 1 with order of "evening/morning" and the passage you cited concerning the day of atonement. It seems to me that the argument I quoted from Keil and Delitzsch is pretty strong. And I have never "liked" the Jewish tradition on this matter because it seems unnatural. The day ends when we go to sleep, just like our life ends when we "sleep" (die).

Okay. So they begin their Sabbath on the evening of the 9th day. The 10th day begins at 6pm. That must mean the Sabbath begins before 6pm, but would 4 or 5 pm be considered evening? It sounds more like the afternoon to me.

The following sounds correct to me:

Morning is 6am to 12pm (6 hours).
Afternoon is 12pm to 6pm (6 hours).
Evening is 6pm to 12am (6 hours).
Night is 12am to 6am (6 hours).

Based on this assumption of mine, according to the divisions of a day which sounds reasonable to me, based on the Jewish reckoning of a day being from 6 o'clock to 6 o'clock...if the Sabbath begins on the 9th day in the evening, that would be 6pm. That's not the 9th day no more though, that would be the 10th day. The Sabbath and Day of Atonement would begin at 6pm and end at 6pm the following day, but that doesn't reconcile with scripture which says to begin the Sabbath in the evening of the 9th day.

If the days begin at 6am and end at 6am, then the Sabbath would begin on the 9th day in the evening which is 6pm. Twelve hours later the Day of Atonement would begin on the 10th day at 6am in the morning. The Sabbath would end in the evening of the 10th day at 6pm, which is 12 hours after the Day of Atonement begins. The Day of Atonement then ends at 6am which is 12 hours after the Sabbath ended. According to this, the Sabbath will begin first and end first, and the Day of Atonement would begin last and end last.

This latter option makes more sense in light of Leviticus 23:26-32. What do you think of this so far?
I can't really follow the logic of your approach there. It seems like the "sabbath" of the Day of Atonement" could be a special case that does not necessarily imply that days always began the same way. As far as I know the Jews have not always held to the "evening to evening" definition of a day, and they have disputed amongst themselves as to when it really starts. It would be helpful to have more info on that.

Richard

CandF

07-26-2010, 10:57 PM

This is a great study and very interesting to learn the calendar and timing of His Feast days too. There are a few (well, many) verses that will help with this, and when a definition is needed, it is best to let the bible define itself.

I will just post a few of the seemingly hundreds of verses available. My thoughts aren't to try to sway or convince anyone...just to show some verses and open a door that you can pray on and ask YHWH our Father in Heaven for Him to reveal the truth to you.

One thought though...the most common thing that I see people have problems with is trying to fit a preconceived idea. Sometimes what we believe with all our heart is right...but sometimes it is a test to see if we will drop our own desires and thoughts and traditions of man, and replace them with His.

Starting in the beginning, Gen. reveals much about the day but it is also hard for many people to see it as it can be preconceived in many different ways. But since it is the beginning of the bible we can start there, just don't give up there because there are so many more verses to reveal it.

On the first day He created the Heavens and Earth and then... Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light. And Elohim saw the light, that it was good: and Elohim divided the light from the darkness. And Elohim called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Gen 1:3-5)

We see here that He divided the light from the darkness and they became 2 parts...there is light which is called Day...and there is darkness which is called night. The Father in heaven separated , He did not combine, light with darkness, He separated Day from Night. Then as we read on we see that after He created then came evening and then the morning was the end of that 2 part day.

If you look at each day, He always did His work in the light, in the Day light period, and then came evening, then morning ended that day. If we look at this in the "Big Picture" We are later told by the Messiah... I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. (Joh 9:4)

The day of Atonement was mentioned before. This is a feast that goes from evening to evening. Many think since this feast goes from evening to evening it proves a day does too. But the Father in Heaven tells us when each feast starts and ends, Feast of Unleavened Bread lasts for 7 days, the Feast of Tabernacles last for 7 days followed by the 8th day being the Last Great Day. There is also a Jubilee Year and others that show us Feasts are not just one day in length.

We are told that the Day of Atonement is on the 10th day and begins on the 9th at evening.

(Lev 23:27) Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement:

(Lev 23:32) It shall be unto you a Sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.

Here we can see that it is from evening to evening, and begins at the evening portion of the 9th day, through the day portion of the 10th and ends at evening on the 10th. So after the sunsets on the 9th day it starts, the next morning the sun rises on the 10th day, and when day light ends, the sun sets the fast is ended.

You bring up an interesting point about tomorrow. If the day starts at evening then at 4pm I can say "see you tomorrow" when we plan to meet up that evening after sunset. But even people who hold to the evening reckoning can not get there thoughts to line up with this. On more than one occasion I have attended meetings with them on friday night only to have them say, "see you tomorrow" as we depart but if the day started at evening it would be incorrect to say see you tomorrow, instead it would be later today. Very confusing.

1Co 14:33 For Elohim is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all assemblies of the saints.

Psa 71:1 In thee, O YHWH, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.

All dictionaries that I have seen, show tomorrow meaning the day after today...I have never seen it defined as later that same day, but lets let the Bible tell us how to define tomorrow.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which YHWH hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto YHWH: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Here we see that tomorrow is the Sabbath, prepare today (the 6th day), and it will be kept until morning. If you read previous verses you will also find that any manna that was collected and held over on any of the other work days would rot and grow worms, but on the 6th day it was required to lay it up until the Sabbath and it will be preserved! And we are told to lay it up until morning, morning being that is when the Sabbath Day begins.

(1Sa 11:10-11) Therefore the men of Jabesh said, To morrow we will come out unto you, and ye shall do with us all that seemeth good unto you. And it was so on the morrow, that Saul put the people in three companies; and they came into the midst of the host in the morning watch, and slew the Ammonites until the heat of the day: and it came to pass, that they which remained were scattered, so that two of them were not left together.

Here is another timeline of events that lays out a Day...(1Sa 19:10-11) And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night. Saul also sent messengers unto David's house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David's wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain.

We are told of the events that night, and Saul's plan to slay him in the morning, and Michal's warning of it using the word tomorrow.

Another angle to look at, is the hour of a day. When we count we start with one at the beginning of a day and end at 24 hours in a full period of Day and Night. When we look to the bible it starts that first hour at...

(Act 2:15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

(Joh 1:39) He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

(Act 10:3) He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of YHWH coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

(Mat 20:5-6,12) Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

(Luk 23:44-45) And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

The information given to us above tells us that the first 12 hours are the hours of Light, of Day. Hour one would be the beginning of that day at sunrise the 12th is at the end of the daylight period.

(Joh 11:9) Yahushua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Another angle to look at would be metaphorically...1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

HalleluYaH the Father of Lights starts His day with Light!

CandF

Richard Amiel McGough

07-27-2010, 10:36 AM

CWH

07-27-2010, 08:40 PM

Hi CandF,

Welcome to this forum :yo::welcome: Hope you will enjoy and learn from this forum. We love new faces here and looking forward to your contributions. You have brought up some thoughts and I would like to share here:

Jewish tradition reckons a day to be from evening to evening. A day (with sunlight) would be from sunrise to to sunset and night would be from sunset to sunrise. Therefore in Genesis 1, every day of creation from the 1st to the 6th day, there is a sentence of "and there was evening and there was morning". I believe this was purposely written to indicate clearly a full rotation of the earth. It is like saying, "and there was a 12 hours of night and 12 hours of daylight" so as not to confuse the word "day" to indicate only 12 hours of daylight. I am not sure if there was exactly 24 hours in one day of creation...perhaps much longer. There was no mention of this sentence, "and there was evening and there was morning" on the last day of creation except that we know God rested on the seventh day and made it holy. It's like suggesting there was no full rotation of the earth on the 7th day. And since God rested on the 7th day, that would suggest that God worked the full day and night for 6 days without rest and rested on the holy 7th day. There was no mention of what God did on the 8th day onwards, suggesting God carry on with His normal day of duty after he rested on the 7th day of creation.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

BTW the 1st to the 6th day of creation with the sentence, "and there was evening and there was morning" can be taken symbolically (if one day is taken as 1,000 earth years) that there was 6,000 years of creation, and that 6,000 years of creation is filled with evil(evening...night.. darkness...wickedness) and good(morning...day....light...righteousness). And since God completed and rested on the 7th day and made it holy can be taken symbolically as God completed his creation by the next 1,000 years (since 6,000 years have almost already past) and made it holy and since there was no mention of night on the holy 7th day; it will be a day filled only with goodness and righteousness that carries on continuously. It corresponds well with Revelation 21 which happened after the millennium was over, "for there will be no night" i.e. there will be no evil and nothing impure enters it....:

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Many Blessings.

CandF

07-28-2010, 02:08 PM

Thank you RAM and Cheow Wee Hock for the welcome, :) and I have to say, it is nice to find such a wealth of info in these boards...it will keep me busy for a while!

I haven't figured my way around these boards yet to learn how you are quoting (with the blue boxes)...but will do my best to reply...

You made great references to the Sabbath and the Jewish tradition of evening to evening. When I first learned about the Sabbath I was taught to follow that Jewish tradition. But the more that I read the bible the more I was learning that what I was taught as a child wasn't lining up with scripture, and the traditions of the Jews also had errors. It was somewhat comforting finding this warning, (Mar 7:8) For laying aside the commandment of YHWH, ye hold the tradition of men...

But that also meant that I had to stop relying on what I was taught and go back to relearning everything by reading the word, praying and only trusting what YHWH showed me.

(Mat 23:8) But be not ye called Rabbi [teacher]: for one is your Rabbi, even the Messiah; and all ye are brethren.

(Psa 118:8) It is better to trust in YHWH than to put confidence in man.

Sometimes people get mad at me because my beliefs do not always follow the traditions, so it is really nice to be welcome here.

You quoted some great verses from Gen 2.

(vs 1-3) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And Elohim blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which Elohim created and made.

One study point that I have found is that when YHWH repeats something to us that it is a key piece. Here we are told YHWH didn't just rest on the 7th day...we are told He rested from His work...and we are told 3 times in just those three verses. I was never shown that when I was taught the evening to evening Sabbath. You mention that YHWH worked day and night...but that isn't what is written in the timeline that Gen. 1 shows, or with other scriptures.

We are symbolically reminded when the Messiah said we "must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." (Joh 9:4 I)

YHWH has told us that light is day and darkness is night, and now we see that no man can work in the night, what does that mean?

(Amo 5:20) Shall not the day of YHWH be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

To do the work of YHWH and to be a laborer and prepare for the harvest, we must do this work before that darkness comes...in that time of darkness will be too late, as you have also shown.

(Luk 10:2-3) Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Master of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

So we see that this lines up with what you found in Rev. 21 too. Today is our period to do YHWH's work while there is light...our rest period will come after that terrible day of darkness when YHWH baptizes the earth with fire, ends the period of darkness...and then there will only be Light.

(Rev 21:23-25) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of YHWH did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Night and darkness relate to evil...and there is no evil when His Holy Kingdom is set up, just the light of YHWH! But it is because of people choosing darkness/evil instead of the ways of YHWH, that the day of YHWH will come.

(Joh 3:19-21) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in Elohim.

(Isa 13:10-11) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. [the oppressor]

Which brings us back to Gen where YHWH tells us that He divided the light from the darkness and establishes the Night to represent darkness where He called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

And one last note...fantastic catch :thumb: about the 7th day in the creation story (Gen.)...there is no evening, no night, no darkness, that follows that Sabbath Day like there is in the other 6 Days.

CindyPinOKC

04-07-2012, 10:12 PM

I stumbled upon this thread while searching the beginning of a biblical day, trying to see if I could find any evidence on the "evening to evening" reckoning coming out of some tradition. I was really impressed with everything I read here! We have only recently come to believe that a 24-hour period begins in the morning, and many of the verses and reasoning were mentioned here. Pretty interesting!

Does anyone here have any information on how, where, when, etc. the evening to evening reckoning started? The best I can figure out is that no one generally works after dark anyway, so Friday nights just kind of got "tacked onto" the weekly Shabbat.....but I was hoping to find something more concrete. TIA!

David M

04-08-2012, 02:52 AM

Hi to all.

This is an interesting topic Richard has raised and is of academic importance rather than matters of faith and belief.

I offer some of my own thoughts, from reading the posts in this thread so far. We are obviously conditioned in the times we live to the day starting at midnight. The start of the day has been shifted by six hours from the time we are considering in the Bible, when the day started at sunset. Like most things, humans make compromises and so we are familiar with starting the day at midnight. If we got used to decimalization, scrapping imperial measurements and the same with decimilaztion of currencies. I am sure we could get used to starting the day again at sunset if that is what our government decided. Changing the clocks to summertime is something we have got used to, even though it remains a big issue in some countries.

Today we live and work in a 24-hour society and around the globe it is all ways daylight somewhere. While one half of the world would be at sleep (during darkness) the other half are awake and working. Modern-day society has blurred the boundaries so much, we might as well work to a universal time. In part, that was done by setting the international date line. Nowadays, work and sleep are in accordance with the job we do. I have worked night shifts and those who have, know how to adjust to sleeping in the day. To sleep in the day, we simulate night and sleep in blackout conditions. Working at night and missing out on daylight hours is not good for our bodies that have been designed for working during the day. However, the body has been able to adapt and we cope with working at night in artificial light, even if not good for our longterm health.

Back to the Bible and at the beginning. I see that God’s day ends when He has worked and created something. CWH has brought out a good point in that God could have worked continuously for six full days ( 6 x 24) and then rested the seventh day. If we could keep working 6 days continuously, I expect we would need to rest by the seventh day. It is bad enough working 6 x 12-hour days and by the end of a 72-hour working week, the extra day of rest is necessary. The people at the beginning were restricted to working in daylight when they could see what they were doing.

It is generally accepted that working for more than 12 hours continuously is bad practice and we need to have rest and sleep. I can see the concept of the day ending when we have finished work. The start of the day at sunset (night) is the time for the body to build itself up ready for work later in the day.

The question of the 8th day was brought up. Although we know God works continuously in bringing about His purpose, nevertheless, we are in still in the period of the 7th day of God’s rest. The number 8 in the Bible is associated with new beginnings. The 8th day for God is when He creates a "new heaven and a new earth". That new beginning (I think) starts at the point when Christ hands back a restored kingdom to God at the end of the 7th millennium. I think we are coming to the end of the 6th millennium very soon.

God is the Creator and Master Mathematician and Pattern Maker, therefore, it should be no surprise to see a pattern to God’s timescale in which to restore the earth ready for this new beginning in the 8th millennium.

Just food for thought.

David

duxrow

04-08-2012, 09:12 AM

Am enjoying this thread -- very interesting. Used to be (maybe still is) a lot of talk about a 24hr. Day in Genesis, and tickled me when Jesus said: Joh:11:9: Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

In a sense, then, we can see the reason why they were 'in the dark' in the OT.

just my 2 cents..:thumb:

Unregistered

05-03-2012, 09:25 PM

Hi there!!

Here you have some imformation you can consider:

Genesis 1:5 is an easy scripture to understand if we allow the Bible to interpret itself. However, in most
cases, it is also a grossly misunderstood and misrepresented scripture. As we proceed, keep in mind that
God called the light 'day' and he called the dark 'night'. Never lose sight of the fact that scripture tells
us that 'the evening H6153
and the morning were the first day'. Scripture does not state that 'night
H3915
and
morning' constitute a day, but 'eveningH6153
and morning' constitute a day. This is important to
understand!

Genesis 1:5 tells us that 'evening and morning' make up a day. We must understand that the word
'evening H6153
' is not referring to 'night
H3915
', but is in fact referring to the afternoon period between noon
and sunset. We will here give irrefutable proof to support this Biblical fact. Please carefully study the
following examples taken directly from scripture which demonstrate that 'evening' is referring to a time
between noon and sunset. The first example we shall discuss refers to the offerings which the Israelites
were required to perform on a daily basis:

'Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day
continually. The oneH259 [H259 = FIRST] lamb thou shalt offer in the morning H1242; [H1242
= dawn] and the otherH8145 [H8145 = SECOND] lamb thou shalt offer at evenH6153 [or,
evening]' (Ex. 29:38-39).
These verses tell us that the Israelites were to offer two lambs every day: verse 39 tells us that the first
lamb was to be offered in the morning and the second lamb was to be offered in the eveningH6153
! This
would mean that eveningH6153
must refer to a time before sunset if both sacrifices were offered on the same
day – which they were! Understand: two sacrifices took place every day; the first sacrifice was offered in
the morning and the second sacrifice was offered at evenH6153
, (eveningH6153
), which must indicate a time
before sunset! As you read the following passage in scripture, notice all the details that take place after the
sacrifice is performed:

'And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice , that Elijah the prophet
came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that
thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that
thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt
sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the
trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is
the God; the LORD, he is the God. And Elijah said
unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and
Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there. And Elijah said unto
Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain. So Ahab went
up to eat and to drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down
upon the earth, and put his face between his knees, And said to his servant, Go up now, look
toward the sea. And he went up, and looked, and said, There is nothing. And he said, Go
again seven times. And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there
ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab,
Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down, that the rain stop thee not. And it came to pass in
the meanwhile, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain.
And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel. And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah; and he
girded up his loins, and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel' (1 Kings 18:36-46).

Think about the above verses. All the events outlined took place about the time of, and after, the sacrifice
offered in the eveningH6153
. Is it not obvious that these events had to have taken place before sundown?
How else would there have been enough light for Elijah to do all the things mentioned in these scriptures,
including climbing to the top of Mount Carmel, and also his servant climbing the mount several times and
able to look toward the sea? Would it have been possible to do this after sunset, or in the dark? Since
these scriptures give the Biblical support needed to prove this undeniable fact, we use these verses in 1
Kings 18 as conclusive evidence that support the Biblical fact we are here making – that the word
'eveningH6153'
refers to a time before sundown!
Notice further in Gen. 24:11:
"And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the
eveningH6153
, even the time that women go out to draw water" (Gen. 24:11).

Here we are told that the camels knelt by the well of water in the evening H6153
. We are also told that
women would go out to draw water in the 'eveningH6153
'. Clearly, the women did not go out to draw water
after sunset, or in the dark of night! Historical evidence confirms this! Logic confirms this! It should be
obvious to those who really want to prove this subject, that the women in Old Testament times would
have gone out to draw water from the wells at ‘eveningH6153
’, a time before sundown, while there was still
light. The word ‘eveningH6153
’ in this Genesis 1:5 inarguably refers to the time period before sundown, and
not after sundown or at night! In Genesis 1:5, when God tells us that the 'morning and evening'
constitute a 'day', He is evidently telling us that it is the 'morning' and 'afternoon' – the light portion –
which is 'day'!
Again, some will still continue to argue that since 'evening' is mentioned before 'morning' a number of
times in Genesis 1 (i.e. verses 5, 8, 13, 19, 23), then it must mean that 'evening' comes before
'morning'. But this is clearly not the case. Notice the following verses, among others, which list the word
'morning' before the word 'evening':
'…the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening' (Ex. 18:13).
'…the Philistine drew near morning and evening, and presented himself forty days' (1 Sam.
17:16)
note: Note that morning and evening here are again reckoned with the 'day'. The
Philistine drew near in the light hours (morning and evening), and not at night.

Notice the following, perhaps even clearer scripture:
'And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To
morrow is a feast to the LORD. And they rose up early [H7925 = early morning] on the morrow
[H4283 = next day], and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat
down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play' (Ex. 32:5-6).
Did you notice that Aaron woke up on the morrow H4283
[the next day], which was early in the morning!
Does this not yet again clearly indicate that the morning is the beginning of a new day? If there are any
who are still skeptical of this Biblical Truth, there is even more proof! Notice the following account in the
book of Genesis:

'And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her
father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the
morrow [H4283 = next day], that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight
[H570 = yesterday, last night] with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go
thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father' (Gen. 19:33-34).

These two verses prove that the night before the morning, or 'yesternight', was reckoned with the
previous day and was not part of the new day which begun in the morning! How plain and simple are the
teachings of God when we allow His Word to interpret itself!

Let us take one final look at Genesis 1:5 and discuss an additional interesting point which supports the
Biblical fact that a day begins at sunrise and not at sunset or midnight! Notice:
'And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the
morning were the first dayH3117
' (Gen. 1:5).
The word 'day' is translated from the Hebrew word 'yom'. Strong’s gives the following definition which
confirms what is plainly being communicated in Gen. 1:5 regarding 'day': 'From an unused root
meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours)…from sunrise to sunset…'. The warm hours of a day are of
course the hours between sunrise and sunset! Furthermore, in the New Testament, the word 'day' is
translated from the Greek word 'hemera' (Strong’s number 2250). Strong’s gives the following definition
for 'hemera': 'the time space between dawn and dark'.

Judges 19:9
'9 And the man arose to go, he and his concubine and his servant. But his father-in-law, the young woman’s father, said to him, 'See, the day is now drawing toward evening. Please spend the night. See, the day is coming to an end. Stay here, and let your heart be glad. And you shall rise early tomorrow for your journey, and you shall go to your tent.'
Note: Rising "early tomorrow" implies the start of the day being morning. You will never see the words "early, at night..."

Numbers 11:32
'32 And the people were up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail. He who has least gathered ten omers. And they spread them out for themselves all around the camp.'
Note: 'that day' belongs to 'that night', then the 'next day' comes

So far we have examined the Scriptures from which should come all our doctrine, but it is also interesting to delve into some of the studies of historians and commentaries...

"...The nighttime is considered as belonging to the preceding period of daylight. from this there developed the meaning of "day" in the sense of the cycle made up of one period of daylight and one period of darkness, or according to our modern reckoning, twenty-four hours...from the natural viewpoint the twenty-four hour day begins at sunrise...
however, beside this conception there arose another idea of the twenty-four hour day, according to which this daily period began at sunset. it was no doubt the lunar calendar of the Jews which gave rise to this viewpoint...
although the earlier computation did not die out completely, the custom of considering the day as beginning at sunset became general in later Jewish times..." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible. p.497)

"There can be no doubt that in pre-exilic times the Israelites reckoned the day from morning to morning. The day began with the dawn and closed with the end of the night following it..." (Jacob Zallel Lauterbach, Rabbinic Essays, (Cincinnati: Hebrew Union College Press, 1951), p. 446)

"...To the Light He gives the name Day, to the Darkness the name Night...Thus the work of the first day, reckoned probably from morning to morning, is accomplished. The period of Light is followed by Evening and Darkness, which comes to an end with the next morning when the second day begins..." (Peake's Commentary on The Bible, p.136).

"In the Old Testament the earlier practice seems to have been to consider that the day began in the morning. In Gen. 19:34, for example, the "morrow" (ASV) or "Next Day" (RSV) clearly begins with the morning after the preceding night..." (Jack Finegan, The Handbook of Biblical Chronology, p.7-8).

"...In earlier traditions a day apparently began at sunrise (e.g., Lev. 7:15-17; Judg. 19:4-19)...
later its beginning was at sunset and its end at the following sunset...
this system became normative...
and is still observed in Jewish tradition, where for example , the sabbath begins on Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday at sunset..." (Oxford Companion to the Bible, p.744).

"That the custom of reckoning the day as beginning in the evening and lasting until the following evening was probably of late origin is shown by the phrase "tarry all night" (Jdg 19:6-9); the context shows that the day is regarded as beginning in the morning; in the evening the day "declined," and until the new day (morning) arrived it was necessary to "tarry all night" (compare also Num 11:32)" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

"...It is also interesting that according to the Karaite historian Al-QirqisanI (ca. 975 CE), the dissident Meswi al-Okbari (ca.850 CE) broke from traditional Rabbinical Judaism in an attempt to get back to the original religion and began the reckoning of the day from sunrise. (The Itinerary of R. Benjamin of Tudela, ix, 5-8, ed. Gruhut-Adler, (1904), p. 23)

"Among the Greeks the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset..." (Handbook of Chronology, op.cit., p.8)

"Among the ancient Israelites, as among the Greeks, the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset. This was the custom also of the Gauls and ancient Germans, and was probably connected originally with the cult of the moon. There is, however, evidence that this was not the custom at all times..." (Delitzsch in Dillmann's commentary on Gen. i. 5)

"...Early in the old testament period, when Canaan was under Egypt's influence, the day started at sunrise...
later, perhaps under Babylonian influence, the calendar seems to have changed. the day began at moonrise (1800 hrs) and a whole day became an evening and a morning..." (Lion Encyclopedia of the Bible - p.163).

"...The Israelites, like the Babylonians, counted their days from sunset to sunset..." (NIV Study Bible, p.707)

"We know little about the old Israelite calendar, apart from the laws of the festivals. But the Mishnah (the collection of Jewish law made at the end of the 2nd century AD) fully describes the system which the Jews had worked out under Babylonian influence..." (Eerdman's Handbook to the Bible).

"When the Jews returned to Palestine after their Babylonian exile (516 B.C.E.) they brought back with them the Babylonian astronomy and way of reckoning time..." (What is a Jew, p. 108)

"In order to fix the beginning and ending of the Sabbath-day and festivals and to determine the precise hour for certain religious observances it becomes necessary to know the exact times of the rising and setting of the sun. According to the strict interpretation of the Mosaic law, every day begins with sunrise and ends with sunset... (Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 591-597)

"Days were reckoned from morning to morning...
Following the reign of King Josia (c. 640-609), and especially after the Babylonian exile a number of significant and enduring changes occurred in the Israelite calendar showing that the Jews gradually adopted the Babylonian calendar of the time...the seven day week persisted despite its failure to divide evenly either the month or the year. the day however, was counted from evening to evening, after the Babylonian fashion..." (New Catholic Encyclopedia -Volume 11, p.1068)

"So far as we know, the Babylonian calendar was at all periods truly lunar...
the month began with the evening when the new crescent was for the first time again visible shortly after sunset. consequently, the Babylonian day also begins in the evening..." (Exact Sciences in Antiquity, p.106)

"...Numerous scholars have argued for the existence in Bible times of a sunrise method of day reckoning...the evidence for the sunrise reckoning is significant and cannot be ignored..." (The Time of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, Chapter 5)

"In Israel, the day was for a long time reckoned from morning to morning...and it was in fact in the morning, with the creation of light, that the world began; the distinction of day and night, and time too, began on a morning (Gen. 1:3-5, cf. 14:16, 18). The opposite conclusion has been drawn from the refrain which punctuates the story of creation: 'There was an evening and there was a morning, the first, second, etc., day'; This phrase, however, coming after the description of each creative work (which clearly happens during the period of light), indicates rather the vacant time till the morning, the end of a day and the beginning of the next work...The change of reckoning must there fore have taken place between the end of the monarchy and the age of Nehemias... this would bring us to the beginning of the exile..." (Ancient Israel, p.181-182).

"The first evening was not the gloom, which possibly preceded the full burst of light as it came forth from the primary darkness, and intervened between the darkness and full broad daylight. It was not till after the light had been created, and the separation of the light from the darkness had taken place, that evening came, and after the evening the morning...It follows from this, that the days of creation are not reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning..." (Commentary on the Old Testament, The First Book of Moses, p. 51)

"In early Jewish practice,... it seems to have been customary to reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise, or, rather, from dawn to dawn. Thus the law for the "praise-offering" (lev. 7:17 (pt) specifies that this sacrifice must be eaten on the day upon which it is offered, and that nothing may be left until morning. The repetition of the law in Lev. 22:30... is even more explicit: "On that very day (when it was sacrificed) it shall be eaten; ye shall not leave anything of it until morning. Clearly the next morning is here reckoned as belonging to the next day, and not the same day as the preceding evening and night. In other words, the day is reckoned here from sunrise to sunrise...
Likewise in Exod. 16:19f...the manna was given to the people in the morning, just at dawn and before the sun had become warm (16:21). It was to be eaten only on the day upon which it was gathered; nothing was to remain over until the next morning; that which did so became foul. Here, too, the day seems to have been reckoned from dawn to dawn...From Matt. 28:1 It may be inferred that the practice of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was not universal in Israel, but in certain circles the older practice continued for several centuries...It is manifest that the day is still reckoned here from dawn to dawn. This is also the implication of the parallel passage, Mark 16:1f...Luke 23:56b-24:1 seems to imply the same...
Finally, it is significant that in the second Temple, throughout its entire existence, the practice seems to have been in all ritual matters to reckon the day from dawn to dawn, and not according to the later practice, from sunset to sunset...even the rabbis, who, themselves, reckoned the day from sunset to sunset, and refused to admit the legitimacy of any other practice, or rather, absolutely ignored all divergent practice, none the less had to admit the validity of the interpretation of Lev. 7:15...
the day was at one time reckoned from sunrise to sunrise...
The earlier practice, which continued until the time of the secondary strata of the Priestly code, was to reckon the day from dawn to dawn...
The later practice was to reckon the day from sunset to sunset...
It is impossible to tell exactly when this change in the mode of reckoning the day took place in Israel, and what causes brought it about. Possibly it may have had something to do with the introduction of the lunar calendar instead of the solar, for the lunar calendar naturally presupposes a reckoning of the day from nightfall to nightfall...
It was probably coincident with the revision of the festival calendar, which took place in the period after the time of Ezra, and was, in all probability, the work of the soferim or of the Great Synod in the fourth century B.C. This may also be inferred from the statement in the Talmud (Berachoth 33a) that the men of the Great Synod instituted the ceremonies of Kiddush and Havdalah, the solemn sanctification of the Sabbath on Friday eve, and its equally solemn ushering out on Saturday eve, in other words, ceremonies specifically marking the beginning and close of the Sabbath as at sunset. These were ceremonies for the Jewish home instead of the Temple. This, coupled with the fact that in the second Temple the old system of reckoning the day from dawn to dawn continued to be observed, as we have seen, may perhaps indicate that this entire innovation was the work of an anti-priestly group or party in the Great Synod..." (The Sources of the Creation Story - Gen. 1:1- 2:4, p. 169-212)

"A new stage in the investigation of the problem of the calendar of ancient Israel was marked by the appearance of a learned article by E. Koenig in 1906...He maintains that two distinct calendars were current in ancient Israel. The first, a solar calendar...This solar calendar was well adapted to the conditions of the simple, agricultural life which the Israelites lived during the first period of their sojourn in Palestine. It reckoned the day from sunrise...
The second calendar was a luni-solar year...The day now came quite naturally to be reckoned from sunset...This second calendar was obviously based upon Babylonian models and was adopted under direct Babylonian influence at about 600 B.C., when Babylonian religion and general culture began to affect with steadily increasing force the Jewish exiles in Babylonia and, through those of them who return from exile, the Jews who had remained in Palestine.
This broadly sums up Koenig's conclusions...
...the time of the transition from the reckoning of the day as beginning with morning to the reckoning of it as beginning with evening...
...that in the earlier calendar and in the literature which records this the day was reckoned from the morning, presumably from sunrise, while in the later calendar and the literature pertaining thereto the day was reckoned from the evening...must be eaten upon the day upon which it is sacrificed, and that nothing of it must be allowed to remain over until morning. Obviously the implication here is that the next morning is no longer a part of the day upon which the sacrifice was offered, but mark the beginning of the next day...
...Elsewhere we have presented quite a mass of evidence which establishes conclusively that the earlier practice in Israel during the biblical period was to reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise...
...That in the earliest period of Israelite sojourn in Palestine, under calendar 1, the day was reckoned from morning to morning is established by a superabundance of evidence...
...This in turn, together with other important considerations, would point to a time approximately about the beginning or the first half, of the third century B.C. as that of the introduction of the new system of reckoning the day." (Supplementary Studies in The Calendars of Ancient Israel, p. 1-148).

Note: It is interesting to note the wide variety of commentators who may not agree on many points of doctrine, but do agree that the Scriptural day begins at first light in the morning.

so you have no only Biblical support but also historical one.

God bless you.

David M

05-04-2012, 12:09 AM

Thank you guest for this most informative post explaining the day as morning and evening. If we substitute the word "afternoon" (mid-day to sunset) for the word "evening" whenever we read the word evening, then any confusion is taken away.

Guest, I hope you will register on the forum and give us the benefit of your Bible studies on other subjects. Bringing "light" on the subjects under discussion is what we need. As Paul writes; (1 Thess 5:5) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

As I read your post and the part relating to Manna, we can also think about the day the people had to eat the passover before the exodus from Egypt. The lamb had to be killed in the afternoon and they had to eat it later that night. Anything not eaten by the following morning had to be completely burned so nothing remained and kept. It was at mid-night when the Angel of Death passed over. It was after midnight and in the night that Pharaoh sent for Moses. Obviously, all work does not cease at sunset and some work like baking/cooking could continue into the night as they did in that night before the Angel of death passed over and by way of interest we see where the origin of 'unleavened bread' comes in. Many more interesting facts come out as we read about events taking place during the day and during the night.

Thank you once again guest for using Scripture to anwer this question of; "when does the day start?"

David

CWH

05-12-2012, 01:36 AM

David M

05-12-2012, 05:17 AM

"And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

The same problem will faced a Muslim staying around the Artic circle, how is he to pray at sunrise and sun set?

May God blessed the Truth. :pray:

Hello Cheow

It is thought that during the time of the Great Flood the earth's axis was changed. There was definite change in the pattern of weather and for the first time after it rained on the earth, Noah was shown the sight of the rainbow.

Is this change in weather due to the changing of the earth's axis or due to the topography of the land changing. We know that mountains are responsible for causing clouds to precipitate and causing changes to wind flow and changes to weather patterns during the year.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Without the earth's tilt there would be less variation in the seasons around the globe. The seasons would come about merely by the elliptical orbit of the earth around the sun. Could the earth's elliptical orbit have been changed at the same time the axis was tilted in the time of the Great Flood? One or all three of the following changes could have taken place at the time of the Great Flood:
1. The earth's elliptical orbit around the sun was changed
2. The earth's axis was tilted
3. Great changes to the earth's topography too place.

What other changes do you think took place that affect day and night?

David

CWH

05-12-2012, 06:30 AM

Hello Cheow

It is thought that during the time of the Great Flood the earth's axis was changed. There was definite change in the pattern of weather and for the first time after it rained on the earth, Noah was shown the sight of the rainbow.

Is this change in weather due to the changing of the earth's axis or due to the topography of the land changing. We know that mountains are responsible for causing clouds to precipitate and causing changes to wind flow and changes to weather patterns during the year.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Without the earth's tilt there would be less variation in the seasons around the globe. The seasons would come about merely by the elliptical orbit of the earth around the sun. Could the earth's elliptical orbit have been changed at the same time the axis was tilted in the time of the Great Flood? One or all three of the following changes could have taken place at the time of the Great Flood:
1. The earth's elliptical orbit around the sun was changed
2. The earth's axis was tilted
3. Great changes to the earth's topography too place.

What other changes do you think took place that affect day and night?

David

Hi David,

I understand what you are talking about but unfortunately, I have no scientific evidence to answer your questions only speculations. But one thing I am quite sure from all scientific observation of the law of energy that the rotation and revolution of the earth must start slow then gradually reached a maximum speed before slowing down again as its energy dissipates just like a racing car will start from 0 km till it reaches a maximum speed before slowing down as it's fuel used up. Therefore I believe that the rotation and revolution would start slow at creation and therefore 1 day's earth rotation would be much longer than 24 hours and 1 year's revolution was much more than 1 year. The earth I believe is now in the final slowing down stage in rotation and revolution after reaching its maximum speed. That may possibly explain (although I am skeptical) why the patriachs lived such longetivity when the earth's revolution round the sun was at its maximum speed at a few months or even few weeks.

God Blessings for you and all.:pray:

CWH

05-13-2012, 01:33 PM

"And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

The same problem will faced a Muslim staying around the Artic circle, how is he to pray at sunrise and sun set?

May God blessed the Truth. :pray:

Here are some interesting solutions in which a Jew or a Muslim living around the Artic or Antartic Circle solved the problem of prayer times and rituals due to vast differences in the timing of sunrise and sunset. The usual and best solution is to follow the timing from the nearest area or the last place that one stays in which there is proper sunrise and sunset. The problem becomes more complex if a future Jewish or Muslim astronaut were to observe prayer times travelling in space for months and when he landed on another planet or moon!

How a Jew prays living around the Poles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_law_in_the_polar_regions

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-whendoesonepraywhenthereisnoday.htm

How a Muslim prays living around the Poles:
http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-384-3955.htm

God Blessed.:pray:

Unregistered

02-27-2013, 08:09 AM

"And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

I find it very interesting you should bring this up... Look back to the book of Joshua and read where El Shaddai (Almighty One) stopped the sun from setting until His children had defeated the Ammalakites. It was the ONLY time He heeded the voice of a man and stopped the earth's rotation for about a day.. :-) So that threw us off by an entire day and threw the rotation off--bending time. Then He did it again in I think 1 or 2 Kings with Hezakiah and He made the sun dial go backwards by about 3hrs or 4hrs? We used to have an equal 30 days in our calendar during ancient times...when He bent time, you notice our rotation is no longer a perfect circle but elliptical, right? Also we can't just have 30 days a month or we'd have too many months or not enough each year.

JG2

03-05-2013, 09:10 AM

Great topic ! Check out the NET bible.org translation for Bereshit(Gen) 1:5

God called the light "day" and the darkness "night." There was evening, and there was morning, marking the first day.

The word morning is derived from 'boker' ie dawn chosen rather than day 'yowm' which means the heat of day rather than beginning of light, sunrise to end any confusion. Interesting that in their own footnotes they have attempted to twist this into the opposite meaning again.

It should be plain that 'Light' was the demarcation event not 'darkness' as the first recorded act of creation! Not that darkness wasn't created per se IDK but in the Creation Epoch it already was since in v 3 God said, Let their be Light! There is no reference to God creating darkness, he separated the Light from it though. So then in my mind that is when time (or human perception of it) must have begun. No motion[?] no time. Before Light , darkness, chaos, void, nothingness nada nil

The 'oriental' or as I would rather emphasize so to stay on topic here, the Talmudic definition that evening is the beginning of the day gently balances upon a (and strangely enough) Greek metaphysical thought sequence and occult approach disrupting the plain meaning of the text. It tends to obfuscate it's meaning with the reverse of the implied and simple statement being made. This is quite a commonality of belief of many 'secret societies' in their doctrinal stances that hidden means revealed, or that light is really dark etc etc. because all things in Shatans world are reversed, constant state of vice verso, counterfeit substitutes for the authentic.

Best example, " Yea, has God said..?" Yes, God has said!

I believe that Light is the beginning of the common day as per throughout Scripture this is what is implied, and only on rare instances will you find such examples as Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement timing from evening to evening. I do not think this can be construed as the ordinary general method of rendering for the weekly Sabbath or any other day for that matter else it would not have been necessary for God to spell it out for us in that specific instance. Because it was not the ordinary methodology for reckoning time everywhere else.

See Genesis 2:1-4

David M

03-06-2013, 02:39 AM

The fact is; God can see in the dark. Man needs light to see and be able to work during the hours of darkness. Man cannot work in the dark, because he cannot see what he is doing. Before God created the sun to light the earth or create any of the stars in the universe there must have been darkness. In Genesis 1:2 it says; darkness was upon the face of the deep. Not only was it dark at great depth in the sea, but darkness was on the face of the sea. God works at any level and in any place and does not rely on light and God did not create light for himself before He created anything. God did not need to create light in order to see what He was doing.

Visible light to humans is only a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum and a small range of fequencies within the spectrum. Given that God can see all parts of the spectrum, shows just how limiting visible light is the way it limits us to what we can see.and do.

David

Unregistered

05-08-2013, 07:39 PM

Here is another thing to consider about the creation verses. The vast majority of the response take a point of view of man. Meaning, that it is MAN that is sitting on the earth looking upward (not meaning that man was on the earth during the creation). The Word tells us that YHVH hovered OVER the earth. He was not sitting ON the earth looking upward from it. He was ABOVE and all around the earth looking at it from space. We know have the ability to see what that looked like, we have ample pictures and animations of how the earth orbits the sun and revolves on it's axis, and how the moon orbits the earth. If you look at one of the various pictures/animations you will see that the earth has one side that the sun shines on and the other side is dark. The earth ALWAYS has one side in the light and one side in the dark. It is only from man's point of view and position, looking upward, that there is limitations of day and night. There is no physical line upon the earth that is a starting point for when the earth started revolving on it's axis. In other words, did YHVH draw a line upon the earth at some point, from pole to pole where the sun did not shine and it was night, and then start the earth revolving, waiting for the line to return to it's starting point again? If so, then where is that line? We have a man appointed imaginary line, but what if that is the wrong place where the light started to go into darkness is (most likely is)?

Did YHVH wait until that "starting point" "day" line came around again before He started creating again, as some have suggested (only creating during the "day light")? If so, I He sitting at a fixed point on only ONE side of the earth, the "day" side, looking down at it, waiting for it to revolve to the starting point again so He can start creating, again? No, He is above and all around it, He is not bound by the earths rotational orbits to create upon it. He did not need the "day" light upon the earth, nor had to wait until half of it was in the light, to create upon it (it is silly to think that He had to wait until the dark side of the earth rotated into the light before He created upon it) Nor was He hindered because half of the earth was in darkness (as He created it to be).

What about those people that live near or at the poles? Their "day", the period of "light" can be at times either almost 24 hours and then the same for the night. Was this beyond YHVH's comprehension? That the fact that there would be humans living all over the earth and that their "day" length would be different than others who were living closer to a more even amount? What about the implications of working during the daylight hours and resting the night time hours for them. Again, it is a point of view that is vary narrow and self "centered".

YHVH is telling us how He created the universe from HIS perspective - Him looking DOWN upon us. Man of course takes his point of view, looking upward and thinks that YHVH has that same point of view. It is the same when He tells us of the order of the Tabernacle - the ark first and outward to the entrance - from HIS perspective looking outward toward us. Then we have to ENTER through the ENTRANCE and look and move TOWARD HIM. Same with the creation.

He is telling us that this is HOW the universe works, that the earth revolves on it's axis and that the earth orbits the sun, that the moon orbits the earth and these create the seasons, times of rest for us and the planet. He is telling us that it is working as it should. I do not think you will find many people who do not call the time upon the earth that is toward the sun "day", and the dark part of time "night". Most children can tell you that and it is not a "profound" revelation. Now people are not bound by the restrictions that the darkness of night had in earlier times, and they work all hours of the day (the 24 hours it takes for their spot on the earth to return to it's "starting" point). Before, the night was a time of rest from their striving to eek out a life on this earth (the curse of Gen 3:17-19), now that "curse" is 24 hours. Was this also beyond YHVH's comprehension of what would become on the earth? No.

Again, half of the earth is ALWAYS in the light and half of it is ALWAYS in the dark when you look at it from above it. It rotates and allows all of the earth to have time in the light and darkness for rest. Man is fixated over which part of the earth HE is on, starts the "day" and what part the "night" belongs to the "day" (the night before the day, or the night after the day), man's limited point of view looking upward. Look at a "day" from YHVH's perspective and see how silly that is. Working was done in the daylight and resting was done at night (and is for a lot of us now, but not all). Slaves had to work whenever their masters said to which included the night. Mediate upon these issues and what YHVH has for us in HIS REST (that is not bound by the earth's rotation). We need to start seeing how it is from YHVH's perspective and not our own fleshly human perspective is.

Christopher

02-10-2014, 08:42 AM

Good morning,

I too was one who blindly accepted what was/is believed by many as to when the day began but like you after I sat back and began to ponder this I came to the same logical conclusion you did in that our natural body rhythms do not allow for this to be so.

The numerous verses quoted by those who have responded give clear evidence that the day begins at sunrise.

When we look at the crucifixion scene after Yahushau had dismissed His spirit we find another testimony to this fact.

Joseph of Arimathaea came at even to request the body of Yahushua.

He came at the even because of his fear of the Jews but he came none the less as did Nicodemus as well but praise Yahuwah they came to do this act of loving kindness to their Master.

Pilate then had to send someone to affirm that indeed Yahushau had indeed expired on the cross and then return to confirm to Pilate that this had taken place.

Joseph having been given permission to have the body given to him would have then had to either go and purchase the linen burial strips or return to his home to get them and then go to the crucifixion site to begin the work of removing the body of Yahushua from the cross.

Luke 23:53 says this he did by himself. Joseph must have been quite a specimen of a man to be able to have done this by himself because if we accept what has been taught us of the crucifixion scene this would have been quite a task indeed for one man to accomplish without help and would have taken some time to do because Yahushua was quite a specimen of a man himself.

Then there's the arrival of Nicodemus with the 100lbs of spices to anoint the body of Yahushua for burial and the time involved in accomplishing this even if he had these spices in his possession already.

These men would have been well on in their years as well especially Nicodemus.

One may or may not assume that they washed the body of Yahushau before they began the process of wrapping Him in linen strips and the spices but it's not out of the question.

I have no idea as to how long this would have taken but I'm quite sure it could NOT have happened BEFORE nightfall the beginning of the traditional of the Sabbath Day observance in the evening where no servile work was allowed.

The justification of the fact being discussed in this thread is in the next verse, Luke 23: 54 where it says, " And THAT day was the preparation day COMA and the Sabbath DREW ON.

The term drew on is the word "epiphosko" ( Strong's # 2020 in the Greek ) which means "to begin to grow light or to begin to dawn" which to my understanding clearly separates the two days and clearly says that the day begins at dawn or sunrise and would be more in line with the amount of work that would have been required to prepare Yahushau's body for burial.

The woman may not have seen Nicodemus arrive later because as in the Song Of Solomon, woman who were caught out at night were treated as woman of the night and maybe this is why they went there way to prepare spieces for His burial ignorant of what happened later.

One question that continues to cause me grief is how do we reconcile the fulfillment of Yahushua's promise to spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth if we follow the days stated as the 14th, 15th,and 16th day of the month of Abib / Nisan because it says He arose on the 3rd day and if He arose on the third day then how can one arrive at the 3rd night?

I've heard numerous explanations concerning this but none that I can completely be at rest with including Michael Rood's explanation but again the days don't match up to what he believes and teaches.

Blessings
Christopher

duxrow

02-12-2014, 06:48 AM

Hey Chris.. imo They rightly called the night FIRST because of Gen1:5 -- they didn't know about Jesus going to be "The Light of the World", and how 'they' were 'in the dark' about the Gentiles learning from their teaching and experience.

Gen 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day".

Obviously its a confusing subject--done on purpose, I believe, with the 3D-3N in mind..

Nowadays of course we recognize how morning starts the day fresh after a good night's REST.. amen? :thumb:

WordDigger

04-13-2014, 03:32 PM

Rethinking my Post. Text Removed.

WordDigger

WordDigger

04-13-2014, 04:03 PM

(it is silly to think that He had to wait until the dark side of the earth rotated into the light before He created upon it) Nor was He hindered because half of the earth was in darkness (as He created it to be).

Love the thinking here but it occurred to me that this would be no more silly than GOD needing to "Rest" on the Seventh Day after all that WORK" :).

Just a thought. Really enjoying this article and this thread.

WordDigger

04-13-2014, 06:42 PM

Rethinking post: Text removed...

David M

04-13-2014, 11:51 PM

I believe that we find evidence of the Day starting "At Evening" in Exodus.
Hello WordDigger

Welcome to the forum. I hope that your "digging" the word of God will help us all get to the truth.

I found the night and day confusing to begin with. Here is my take on the subject.

We are used to starting the new day at midnight, that is when the clock reads 00:00 even though we feel the day starts when we get up after a nights sleep. As we know when winter is here, the night begins early but is generally when it gets dark. There is an overlap between what we call night (darkness) and day (daylight) with when the day starts according to the clock. This can be confusing. Our clock beginning the day at midnight seems to be a half-way stage. Midnight is exactly what it says, but according to the clock, Midnight is the start of our day. In the Biblical days, the new day starts at the beginning of night at sunset.

A full day consists of Evening + Morning as in stated Genesis 1

There are 12 hours in the day (daylight) and there are 12 hours in the night (darkness) (John 11:9) Are there not twelve hours in the day?

Morning will correspond to the hours of 6 till 12 (according to present day clocks) Evening corresponds to our Afternoon (12 till 6) Night will correspond from 6pm to 6am
(John 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre,

In Biblical times daylight (day) period was divided up into 12 hours and referred to in terms of hours;
(Matt 20:1) which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
(Matt 20:3) And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
(Matt 20:5) Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

Likewise the night.
(Acts 23:23) And he called unto him two centurions, saying, Make ready two hundred soldiers to go to Caesarea, and horsemen threescore and ten, and spearmen two hundred, at the third hour of the night;

The third hour of the day would correspond to the start of our working day (that is if we work 9 - 5)

When the disciples received the Holy Spirit (on the day of Pentecost) the disciples must have started speaking very early in the day (morning) and started to draw a crowd of which some thought the disciples were drunk (Acts 2:15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

All the best
David

duxrow

04-14-2014, 06:23 AM

The Day after Passover was the first day of Unleavened Bread (a "high sabbath"), and was NOT the regular weekly sabbath.
72 hours seen here!
1107

sylvius

04-14-2014, 08:11 AM

sylvius

04-14-2014, 08:12 AM

The Day after Passover was the first day of Unleavened Bread Nonsense -- Passover is the feast of unleavened bread.

duxrow

04-14-2014, 08:22 AM

sylvius

04-14-2014, 09:17 AM

HIGH SABBATH: Num28:16 KJV "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.
28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
28:18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein" -- holy convocation is apparently spoken of as "high sabbath" in John 19:31.

Maybe reads differently in your mss, Sylvie?

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9956#showrashi=true

16. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, [you shall offer up] a Passover offering to the Lord.. 17. On the fifteenth day of this month, a festival [begins]; you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days.

duxrow

04-14-2014, 09:25 AM

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9956#showrashi=true

16. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, [you shall offer up] a Passover offering to the Lord.. 17. On the fifteenth day of this month, a festival [begins]; you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days. Offer Up is Greek for "Kill the Lamb", right? :winking0071:

sylvius

04-14-2014, 09:50 AM

Offer Up is Greek for "Kill the Lamb", right? :winking0071: bloody business ..

duxrow

04-14-2014, 10:15 AM

Sylvie, You're playing fast and loose with Truth; rarely giving chapter/verse to your ? opinions. Did you get that from Rashi or from being an altar boy? :p

http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/webdoc22.htm

sylvius

04-14-2014, 10:35 AM

Sylvie, You're playing fast and loose with Truth; rarely giving chapter/verse to your ? opinions. Did you get that from Rashi or from being an altar boy? :p

http://cswnet.com/~duxrow/webdoc22.htm

Exodus 12:7,
And they shall take of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel, on the houses in which they will eat it.

v.13:

And the blood will be for you for a sign upon the houses where you will be, and I will see the blood and skip over you, and there will be no plague to destroy [you] when I smite the [people of the] land of Egypt.

"and I will see the blood and skip over you" -וְרָאִיתִי אֶת הַדָּם וּפָסַחְתִּי עֲלֵכֶם , "v'raiti hadam uvasachti aleichem" -- the meaning of "pesach" = being skipped over.

v.22-23, And you shall take a bunch of hyssop and immerse [it] in the blood that is in the basin, and you shall extend to the lintel and to the two doorposts the blood that is in the basin, and you shall not go out, any man from the entrance of his house until morning.

The Lord will pass to smite the Egyptians, and He will see the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, and the Lord will pass over the entrance, and He will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses to smite [you].

WordDigger

04-15-2014, 02:10 AM

Hello WordDigger

Welcome to the forum. I hope that your "digging" the word of God will help us all get to the truth.

I found the night and day confusing to begin with. Here is my take on the subject.

.....

All the best
David

Thanks David,

I believe that I am pretty much in agreement with what you say. At this point, I have called into question a great deal of my understanding of Passover and my understanding of Day. I am dropping back to prepare for another punt :). I have removed my previous posts as a result. I am currently taking a closer look at text I thought I understood for which I now question. At this time I do not know where I will end up but will be digging to uncover more details about what I have previously missed. Will try to get back here when I figure it out.

Best wishes to you as well,
WordDigger (off Digging)

Polstep

11-30-2019, 05:39 PM

Yes the Jews count a day as beginning a evening, but does their counting a day that way make it right?
The scripture says ?The evening an the morning were the first day.? What if the original writing of those were actually ? THIS evening and THIS morning were the first day.? The scriptures have been subjected to so much copying and translations that along the way the word ?THIS? was changed to ?The?