View Full Version : Is the Bible a Moral Guidebook?
When most people think of the Bible they think in terms of it being a moral guidebook, but is it really? The Bible does not teach morality per say, it teaches obedience. Starting with its first book, the Bible declares the most important law is obedience, and shows that it was solely because of disobedience that Adam and Eve were banished from their garden paradise, cursed by Yahweh, and the cause of mankind’s sin. No lesson of morality is contained in this story, or taught in either their disobedience or the curses that were decreed upon them, just the actions of a vengeful god and his demand for obedience. Adam was told by Yahweh that death would be the outcome of eating from the Tree, yet death did not happen…rather curses were decreed upon them from an angry god for their disobedience. Eve was cursed for desiring to be wise, because she didn’t obey Yahweh’s command, yet Solomon was praised for desiring to be wise and given abundant wisdom…the only difference was obedience.
Gen.3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1King 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
Throughout the Bible obedience is taught as the number one virtue to gain right-standing with God, which in most cases has nothing to do with morality. Even the Ten Commandments which are viewed as ten moral laws, for the most part have nothing to do with morality. Only three of the Ten Commandments have anything to do with morality…murder, stealing, and adultery.
1Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Jer.7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Even in the New Testament we find that obedience is held in highest regard and used as the standard to gain God’s love. The obedience Jesus learned through his suffering is the reason Paul gives for our righteousness, if we obey his words. Adams disobedience on the other hand is the reason for our sin.
Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Heb. 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The theme of God loving his creation based solely on obedience is one that I think has been largely overlooked in favor of focusing on the unconditional aspect of salvation. The problem is that the gift of salvation is not really unconditional, because in order to participate in the benefits of salvation one must obey the command of belief, without the belief factor no salvation is acquired.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
When something is truly given unconditionally – like how we love our children – it doesn’t matter if they believe certain things about us as parents, we still love them. The above verse poses a very important question in this regard, which is…if God loved the whole world why did he not spread the knowledge of himself equally to all humans, instead of to just one particular group of people? When truths are discovered in science about the world and how it functions they don’t just pertain to one race of people, they apply to all. The same should hold true for God if he does exist…there would be no reason for his presence to remain a secret, or a mystery revealed only to a select few, who then are responsible for spreading it abroad. The reality of God’s existence shouldn’t depend on the validity of ancient texts, or the mindsets of primitive people, yet this is exactly what has happened with religious doctrines that convince the believer of their special or magical qualities that are aquired only through belief in them.
Exo.19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Our moral intuitions seem to be hardwired into our brains and developed through our culture, which is why there is a continual cognitive dissonance between many of the seemingly immoral passages we read about in the Bible and our own internal sense of what is moral. I know for me it was an ongoing struggle to try and resolve the gross immoralities found in the Bible with my innate values of right and wrong. Another point of importance is the ever-changing value of biblical laws, while always giving merit to obedience no matter what the command.
2Cor. 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
The trap the faithful become locked into is that of obedience to authority, which supersedes the content of the orders in favor of obedience. The New Testament promotes the idea of strict obedience to those in authority, no matter what the nature of that authority. Slaves are to obey their masters in all things and women are to obey their husbands, because obedience is the ultimate measure by which we are judged. One is not taught to be guided by moral intuitions, but solely by the rules that are meted out from those in positions of authority that have been arbitrarily given to them by their god. It is not because they earned their positions through merit, but for reasons such as being born male. A father must be given honor by his children no matter how abusive he is, merely because he is their father.
Col.3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord…20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord…22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
In all areas of life biblical rules give the utmost value and importance to obedience, which is why throughout history the Church has been able to inflict so much damage upon people, especially women. It matters not the nature of the rules they decree, only that they are obeyed. The Bible declares that God will take vengeance upon those who do not obey the Gospel (the good news of Jesus) and will punish them with everlasting destruction…this is the message that is reiterated over and over again in the New Testament – obedience trumps everything!
2Thess.1:8-10 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
1Pet.4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The conclusion that must be drawn from the opening question, “Is the Bible a Moral Guidebook?” is that one is indeed hard pressed to find much related to morality within the pages of the Bible. Obedience is the key focus, and all benefits come from being obedient, while on the other hand moral commands are occasionally found as bi-products of the many laws and rules given by Yahweh. So, what it really comes down to is either being obedient to Yahweh’s commands, or following your own innate sense of morality…and let me tell you there will be many times that the two will conflict, because what your conscience tells you is right will go against what the Bible tells you is right.
Is the Bible a Moral Guidebook? (http://godandbutterfly.net/2012/11/08/is-the-bible-a-moral-guidebook/)
Rose
When most people think of the Bible they think in terms of it being a moral guidebook, but is it really? The Bible does not teach morality per say, it teaches obedience. Starting with its first book, the Bible declares the most important law is obedience, and shows that it was solely because of disobedience that Adam and Eve were banished from their garden paradise, cursed by Yahweh, and the cause of mankind’s sin. No lesson of morality is contained in this story, or taught in either their disobedience or the curses that were decreed upon them, just the actions of a vengeful god and his demand for obedience. Adam was told by Yahweh that death would be the outcome of eating from the Tree, yet death did not happen…rather curses were decreed upon them from an angry god for their disobedience. Eve was cursed for desiring to be wise, because she didn’t obey Yahweh’s command, yet Solomon was praised for desiring to be wise and given abundant wisdom…the only difference was obedience.
Gen.3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1King 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
Throughout the Bible obedience is taught as the number one virtue to gain right-standing with God, which in most cases has nothing to do with morality. Even the Ten Commandments which are viewed as ten moral laws, for the most part have nothing to do with morality. Only three of the Ten Commandments have anything to do with morality…murder, stealing, and adultery.
1Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Jer.7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Even in the New Testament we find that obedience is held in highest regard and used as the standard to gain God’s love. The obedience Jesus learned through his suffering is the reason Paul gives for our righteousness, if we obey his words. Adams disobedience on the other hand is the reason for our sin.
Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Heb. 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The theme of God loving his creation based solely on obedience is one that I think has been largely overlooked in favor of focusing on the unconditional aspect of salvation. The problem is that the gift of salvation is not really unconditional, because in order to participate in the benefits of salvation one must obey the command of belief, without the belief factor no salvation is acquired.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
When something is truly given unconditionally – like how we love our children – it doesn’t matter if they believe certain things about us as parents, we still love them. The above verse poses a very important question in this regard, which is…if God loved the whole world why did he not spread the knowledge of himself equally to all humans, instead of to just one particular group of people? When truths are discovered in science about the world and how it functions they don’t just pertain to one race of people, they apply to all. The same should hold true for God if he does exist…there would be no reason for his presence to remain a secret, or a mystery revealed only to a select few, who then are responsible for spreading it abroad. The reality of God’s existence shouldn’t depend on the validity of ancient texts, or the mindsets of primitive people, yet this is exactly what has happened with religious doctrines that convince the believer of their special or magical qualities that are aquired only through belief in them.
Exo.19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Our moral intuitions seem to be hardwired into our brains and developed through our culture, which is why there is a continual cognitive dissonance between many of the seemingly immoral passages we read about in the Bible and our own internal sense of what is moral. I know for me it was an ongoing struggle to try and resolve the gross immoralities found in the Bible with my innate values of right and wrong. Another point of importance is the ever-changing value of biblical laws, while always giving merit to obedience no matter what the command.
2Cor. 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
The trap the faithful become locked into is that of obedience to authority, which supersedes the content of the orders in favor of obedience. The New Testament promotes the idea of strict obedience to those in authority, no matter what the nature of that authority. Slaves are to obey their masters in all things and women are to obey their husbands, because obedience is the ultimate measure by which we are judged. One is not taught to be guided by moral intuitions, but solely by the rules that are meted out from those in positions of authority that have been arbitrarily given to them by their god. It is not because they earned their positions through merit, but for reasons such as being born male. A father must be given honor by his children no matter how abusive he is, merely because he is their father.
Col.3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord…20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord…22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
In all areas of life biblical rules give the utmost value and importance to obedience, which is why throughout history the Church has been able to inflict so much damage upon people, especially women. It matters not the nature of the rules they decree, only that they are obeyed. The Bible declares that God will take vengeance upon those who do not obey the Gospel (the good news of Jesus) and will punish them with everlasting destruction…this is the message that is reiterated over and over again in the New Testament – obedience trumps everything!
2Thess.1:8-10 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
1Pet.4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The conclusion that must be drawn from the opening question, “Is the Bible a Moral Guidebook?” is that one is indeed hard pressed to find much related to morality within the pages of the Bible. Obedience is the key focus, and all benefits come from being obedient, while on the other hand moral commands are occasionally found as bi-products of the many laws and rules given by Yahweh. So, what it really comes down to is either being obedient to Yahweh’s commands, or following your own innate sense of morality…and let me tell you there will be many times that the two will conflict, because what your conscience tells you is right will go against what the Bible tells you is right.
Is the Bible a Moral Guidebook? (http://godandbutterfly.net/2012/11/08/is-the-bible-a-moral-guidebook/)
Rose
Yes, the Bible is a moral book. I always see the story of Adam and Eve and God in Genesis like a Father talking to his son and daughter. The toddler son and daughter wanted to be as wise as their father and wanted to know good and evil. The father replied that it is not so easy as to be wise requires life experiences with years of education, hard work, sacrifice and discipline in order to gain wisdom and to know good and evil. Since the children were too young to understand the father's advice, the father can only warn them not to partake on this venture until they are more mature enough to understand and the best thing to do currently is to wait and obey his advice. It is like trying to reason to toddlers not to play with knives and fire and if they refused to listen or is unable to understand, the best alternative is to restrain them and force them to obey your wise advice for the time being. Unfortunately the toddler children refused to listen to the father and took things into their hand starting with the more vulnerable one that is the daughter followed by the son. The father also test them to see how keen they want to be wise as him knowing good and evil. Upon realizing their disobedience to their father's advice, the first lesson that they learned of wisdom and knowing good and evil was the immorality of their naked bodies. The father knowing this was a sign of their keenness and to be wise knowing good and evil, was angry at their disobedience. He decided to give in to their keen request by telling them that to do so they will need to sacrifice certain privileges one of which is death and will have to go through the hardship, experience and education to gain wisdom and learn good and evil. This is a punishment so that they will learn to obey the father's advice in future (the future may be several thousand years later) just like a father will punish their disobedient children for playing with fire and knives. Since the daughter is the more vulnerable one in their quest for wisdom and knowledge of good and evil, the loving father put the less vulnerable son responsible to take care of the daughter. He will need to provide for her protection and food (till the land) whereas she will look after their offsprings (child birth).
I will answer the rest of Rose's thread when I have the luxury of time. Meanwhile, meditate on what I have just written.
God Blessings to all.:pray:
Yes, the Bible is a moral book. I always see the story of Adam and Eve and God in Genesis like a Father talking to his son and daughter. The toddler son and daughter wanted to be as wise as their father and wanted to know good and evil. The father replied that it is not so easy as to be wise requires life experiences with years of education, hard work, sacrifice and discipline in order to gain wisdom and to know good and evil. Since the children were too young to understand the father's advice, the father can only warn them not to partake on this venture until they are more mature enough to understand and the best thing to do currently is to wait and obey his advice. It is like trying to reason to toddlers not to play with knives and fire and if they refused to listen or is unable to understand, the best alternative is to restrain them and force them to obey your wise advice for the time being. Unfortunately the toddler children refused to listen to the father and took things into their hand starting with the more vulnerable one that is the daughter followed by the son. The father also test them to see how keen they want to be wise as him knowing good and evil. Upon realizing their disobedience to their father's advice, the first lesson that they learned of wisdom and knowing good and evil was the immorality of their naked bodies. The father knowing this was a sign of their keenness and to be wise knowing good and evil, was angry at their disobedience. He decided to give in to their keen request by telling them that to do so they will need to sacrifice certain privileges one of which is death and will have to go through the hardship, experience and education to gain wisdom and learn good and evil. This is a punishment so that they will learn to obey the father's advice in future (the future may be several thousand years later) just like a father will punish their disobedient children for playing with fire and knives. Since the daughter is the more vulnerable one in their quest for wisdom and knowledge of good and evil, the loving father put the less vulnerable son responsible to take care of the daughter. He will need to provide for her protection and food (till the land) whereas she will look after their offsprings (child birth).
I will answer the rest of Rose's thread when I have the luxury of time. Meanwhile, meditate on what I have just written.
God Blessings to all.:pray:
Your reasoning seems to be very immature, you are trying to make rational sense out of a Bronze Age myth. Here are a few flaws in the Garden story: Adam and Eve are supposed to be married and one flesh, yet they have no children while in the Garden. Adam and Eve are not supposed to know good from evil, yet Eve knows that the tree is good for food and to make one wise, so apparently she had enough knowledge to understand what wisdom was and that it was something to be desired.
A rational parent would never act in the manner that God is portrayed as acting. No parent would ever put poison disguised as something good to eat in front of their children, knowing if their children ate it they would die. How insane is that! A parent wants what's best for their children, and they don't purposely tempt them with things that are harmful.
You say that naked bodies are immoral. What is immoral about a naked body? Supposedly Adam and Eve ran around the Garden naked before their eyes were opened...so, if naked bodies are immoral then God made us all immoral creatures. :lol:
Take care,
Rose
David M
11-14-2012, 03:20 AM
The way I see the Bible is as an instruction book, telling us of the do's and don'ts. It is like the manufacturer of a machine. Some of us read the instructions and some do not. Those who think they know it all and do not read the instructions, might or might not succeed in operating the machine the correct way.
The revelation about man does not come until we read Jeremiah 10:23 which says;O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
It is necessary for man to be guided. If man does not listen to instruction, he goes the way of all flesh to self-destruction. When left without a leader (an instructor) then men and women do as it is recorded in Judges 17:6; In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
God knows what is best for men and women and therefore has given us instruction. The word of God is our instruction manual and is as for (2 Tim 3:16) instruction in righteousness:
Righteousness is linked with morality. The Bible is a book that instructs us about what is morally right. Jesus summed up all the law and the prophets with two commandments. Jesus was not telling us anything new that had not been told before. For example, the second commandment about loving thy neighbor and doing unto others... is found in the Old Testament scriptures which Jesus read often and knew thoroughly. Even the Son of God had to be instructed and took instruction of the inspired word of God. (Leviticus 19:18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (19) Ye shall keep my statutes.
Obedience is simply following instruction. A parent should instructs their child for its own benefit. The child that adheres to the instruction benefits and this pleases the parent. A child does not know all the ramifications resulting from not following the instruction and it is the same from our point of view in following God's instruction. It is better to follow God's instruction than to ignore the instruction and do that which we think is right in our own eyes. The Bible contains numerous examples of the lives of people (good and bad) from which to learn the lessons and heed the warnings.
Is it moral to ignore instructions and do our own thing at the expense of pain and suffering this will cause others? Whatever theories man wants to come up with in this age, the Bible has already given the answer. The Bible might not be fashionable, but it has wisdom that does not come from man. The instruction from the Book of Wisdom is (Proverbs 4:6); Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
David
.
Your reasoning seems to be very immature, you are trying to make rational sense out of a Bronze Age myth. Here are a few flaws in the Garden story: Adam and Eve are supposed to be married and one flesh, yet they have no children while in the Garden. Adam and Eve are not supposed to know good from evil, yet Eve knows that the tree is good for food and to make one wise, so apparently she had enough knowledge to understand what wisdom was and that it was something to be desired.
It sounds like a rational sense out of a Bronze God to you because you cannot accept my views. BTW, mainstream Christianity never accept your Bronze God theory, so who is actually rationalizing? My theory have some acceptance in mainstream Christianity and I have it decades ago. Where in Genesis or in the Bible did it says that Adam and Eve are supposed to be married? Note that in the animal kingdom, there is no such thing as marriage. There is nothing wrong to desire wisdom, God was telling Adam and Eve that getting wisdom and knowledge of good and evil requires giving up their good and carefree life in the Garden of Eden and their companion with God. They were supposed to have eternal life and they will have to give up that eternal life if they wanted wisdom and the knowledge of good and evil. It's like a child wanting to be a professor not realizing he will have to study hard for years and giving up his carefree and playful life under the care of his parents to spend much time indulging in books and studies.
A rational parent would never act in the manner that God is portrayed as acting. No parent would ever put poison disguised as something good to eat in front of their children, knowing if their children ate it they would die. How insane is that! A parent wants what's best for their children, and they don't purposely tempt them with things that are harmful.
There is no poison but a test to see how keen was their decision to obtain knowledge of good and evil to be wise like God and their sincerity to obey God's wise instruction. It's like a parent putting two future career paths for his child to decide and to test his aptitude.... to be a professor or be a billionaire businessman. To be a professor, this will be the sacrifices and hard work to that goal that the child will have to take and to be a billionaire businessman, this is another set of sacrifices and hard work to achieve that goal. Adam and Eve took the path to be like God, wise and knowing good and evil requires the sacrifice of the good carefree eternal life in the Garden of Eden. God will not allow people with the knowledge and propensity for evil to live forever which is tantamount to letting evil propagate forever and ever.
You say that naked bodies are immoral. What is immoral about a naked body? Supposedly Adam and Eve ran around the Garden naked before their eyes were opened...so, if naked bodies are immoral then God made us all immoral creatures. :lol:
Will you expose your naked body for everyone in the world to see? If not, why not?...shame?...disgusting?...immoral? Looking at someone's nakedness is not the issue but that it invokes the temptation for sex, lust, rape, molest, adultery, prostitution, sexual perversions etc.. Do you want it? How many men will not be tempted seeing a beautiful young naked women lying seductively in bed? Same goes with some women seeing a naked young handsome sexy man. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden yet there was no provocation of sexual thoughts but only after they have obtained the knowledge of good and evil were they aware of the immorality of exposing their nakedness which provokes good and evil sexual thoughts.
God Bless Morality.:pray:
It sounds like a rational sense out of a Bronze God to you because you cannot accept my views. BTW, mainstream Christianity never accept your Bronze God theory, so who is actually rationalizing? My theory have some acceptance in mainstream Christianity and I have it decades ago. Where in Genesis or in the Bible did it says that Adam and Eve are supposed to be married? Note that in the animal kingdom, there is no such thing as marriage. There is nothing wrong to desire wisdom, God was telling Adam and Eve that getting wisdom and knowledge of good and evil requires giving up their good and carefree life in the Garden of Eden and their companion with God. They were supposed to have eternal life and they will have to give up that eternal life if they wanted wisdom and the knowledge of good and evil. It's like a child wanting to be a professor not realizing he will have to study hard for years and giving up his carefree and playful life under the care of his parents to spend much time indulging in books and studies.
Gen.2:24-25 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
There is no poison but a test to see how keen was their decision to obtain knowledge of good and evil to be wise like God and their sincerity to obey God's wise instruction. It's like a parent putting two future career paths for his child to decide and to test his aptitude.... to be a professor or be a billionaire businessman. To be a professor, this will be the sacrifices and hard work to that goal that the child will have to take and to be a billionaire businessman, this is another set of sacrifices and hard work to achieve that goal. Adam and Eve took the path to be like God, wise and knowing good and evil requires the sacrifice of the good carefree eternal life in the Garden of Eden. God will not allow people with the knowledge and propensity for evil to live forever which is tantamount to letting evil propagate forever and ever.
Yes, it was a test which was all about obedience, just the same as putting poison in front of your child to test his obedience.
Will you expose your naked body for everyone in the world to see? If not, why not?...shame?...disgusting?...immoral? Looking at someone's nakedness is not the issue but that it invokes the temptation for sex, lust, rape, molest, adultery, prostitution, sexual perversions etc.. Do you want it? How many men will not be tempted seeing a beautiful young naked women lying seductively in bed? Same goes with some women seeing a naked young handsome sexy man. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden yet there was no provocation of sexual thoughts but only after they have obtained the knowledge of good and evil were they aware of the immorality of exposing their nakedness which provokes good and evil sexual thoughts.
God Bless Morality.:pray:
The reason I wouldn't expose my naked body to the world is not about morality, but rather about modesty. Lusting after another person is not immoral, it is only if one acts out upon their lust against another persons will. What if a person has an erotic dream in which they have an affair with another persons husband or wife, that wouldn't be considered immoral because you didn't act out upon your desires. I agree that we shouldn't temp one another in inappropriate sexual ways, but most rapes occurs not because a man was tempted by a sexy woman, but rather for the reason of domination and control.
[QUOTE=Rose;50493]
Gen.2:24-25 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
I am aware of the above passage. What I am focusing is your word "Supposed to be married" which rang in my mind that there was no marriage i.e. marriage ritual between Adam and Eve but they were just declared husband and wife the moment Eve was created from Adam's rib. Marriage ritual does not occur in the animal kingdom and between Adam and Eve except in later human generations. Just a comparison. Same as comparing to animals which do not have the knowledge of good and evil and were all naked with no shame.
Yes, it was a test which was all about obedience, just the same as putting poison in front of your child to test his obedience.
Poison? There is no poison. It's a test to find out about their deep aspirations and obedience to wise instruction; an aptitude test to see if they are suitable to be given wisdom of God knowing good and evil. Such aspiration for wisdom and knowledge of good and evil if given will result in giving up eternal life temporarily until they have achieved the goal. Once they have obtained wisdom and full knowledge of good and evil and become righteous will eternal life be given for those who have passed the grades. Physical death is not gone forever which is the gist of my thread, "Do people really die?". It's like a child who is very keen and insistent to be a professional soldier despite the parents warning that he may faced untimely death in battles. He will have to train very hard and experienced war exercises or even suffer in real war before he can reached the goal of a professional soldier.
The reason I wouldn't expose my naked body to the world is not about morality, but rather about modesty. Lusting after another person is not immoral, it is only if one acts out upon their lust against another persons will. What if a person has an erotic dream in which they have an affair with another persons husband or wife, that wouldn't be considered immoral because you didn't act out upon your desires. I agree that we shouldn't temp one another in inappropriate sexual ways, but most rapes occurs not because a man was tempted by a sexy woman, but rather for the reason of domination and control.
Agree that modesty is the word. Modesty is related to morality. It doesn't make sense from your understanding that a moral person is Not a modest person. Thanks for agreeing that nakedness do provokes sexual thoughts and temptations good or evil.
Modesty Meaning and Definition
(n.) The quality or state of being modest; that lowly temper which accompanies a moderate estimate of one's own worth and importance; absence of self-assertion, arrogance, and presumption; humility respecting one's own merit.
(n.) Natural delicacy or shame regarding personal charms and the sexual relation; purity of thought and manners; due regard for propriety in speech or action.
God Bless.:pray:
When most people think of the Bible they think in terms of it being a moral guidebook, but is it really? The Bible does not teach morality per say, it teaches obedience. Starting with its first book, the Bible declares the most important law is obedience, and shows that it was solely because of disobedience that Adam and Eve were banished from their garden paradise, cursed by Yahweh, and the cause of mankind’s sin. No lesson of morality is contained in this story, or taught in either their disobedience or the curses that were decreed upon them, just the actions of a vengeful god and his demand for obedience. Adam was told by Yahweh that death would be the outcome of eating from the Tree, yet death did not happen…rather curses were decreed upon them from an angry god for their disobedience. Eve was cursed for desiring to be wise, because she didn’t obey Yahweh’s command, yet Solomon was praised for desiring to be wise and given abundant wisdom…the only difference was obedience.
Gen.3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1King 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
This was answered in my subsequent posts.
Throughout the Bible obedience is taught as the number one virtue to gain right-standing with God, which in most cases has nothing to do with morality. Even the Ten Commandments which are viewed as ten moral laws, for the most part have nothing to do with morality. Only three of the Ten Commandments have anything to do with morality…murder, stealing, and adultery.
The ten commandments are still more moral than secular laws. See my post:
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3446-God%92s-law-versus-secular-law-Which-is-moral&p=50482#post50482
1Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Jer.7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Even in the New Testament we find that obedience is held in highest regard and used as the standard to gain God’s love. The obedience Jesus learned through his suffering is the reason Paul gives for our righteousness, if we obey his words. Adams disobedience on the other hand is the reason for our sin.
Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Heb. 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
The theme of God loving his creation based solely on obedience is one that I think has been largely overlooked in favor of focusing on the unconditional aspect of salvation. The problem is that the gift of salvation is not really unconditional, because in order to participate in the benefits of salvation one must obey the command of belief, without the belief factor no salvation is acquired.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As immature, innocent, ignorant children, the best thing is to obey. Better to encourage the children to obey not to play with fire and knives than to reason with them for they may not understand or mistaken the consequences due to the lack of understanding and immature minds.
When something is truly given unconditionally – like how we love our children – it doesn’t matter if they believe certain things about us as parents, we still love them. The above verse poses a very important question in this regard, which is…if God loved the whole world why did he not spread the knowledge of himself equally to all humans, instead of to just one particular group of people? When truths are discovered in science about the world and how it functions they don’t just pertain to one race of people, they apply to all.
It's like forcing everyone to be Christians regardless of their cultures. What good is a religion if it is not acceptable or appropriate to the locals? Religions may come in many forms but the basics are the same.... God, heaven, hell, do good not evil, the Golden rule. As long as one believe and follow the basic rules regardless of their religion they should do well and be rewarded by God as after all grace belongs to God. That's why Jesus said the two commandments are the most important commandments that if followed will lead you to heaven and eternal life..... Love God with all your heart, soul and might and Love thy neighbor as thyself. What if everybody becomes strict Christians, who are going to do work on a Sabbath day or on religious holidays? By having different denominations and having different religions will solve this problem, each with their own Sabbath day and religious holidays. It also add spice in life each with their own different religious customs and cultures.
The same should hold true for God if he does exist…there would be no reason for his presence to remain a secret, or a mystery revealed only to a select few, who then are responsible for spreading it abroad. The reality of God’s existence shouldn’t depend on the validity of ancient texts, or the mindsets of primitive people, yet this is exactly what has happened with religious doctrines that convince the believer of their special or magical qualities that are aquired only through belief in them.
The reason why God's presence remain a secret is that He wanted us to look for Him. The more you look for Him and understand His instructional manuals, the more you will understand and live the righteous path to the rewards of heaven. It's like a teacher encouraging his students to do research and reference in order to understand a subject taught. The more the students did, the more they master and understand the subject taught and will certainly passed the exam.
Exo.19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
It's the same as obeying secular laws; breach of secular laws may land you in jail. Disobedience is equivalent to rebellion.
Our moral intuitions seem to be hardwired into our brains and developed through our culture, which is why there is a continual cognitive dissonance between many of the seemingly immoral passages we read about in the Bible and our own internal sense of what is moral. I know for me it was an ongoing struggle to try and resolve the gross immoralities found in the Bible with my innate values of right and wrong. Another point of importance is the ever-changing value of biblical laws, while always giving merit to obedience no matter what the command.
What is moral to you may not be moral to me. We all may have our own different standards and interpretations of morality. Asians are more conservative than Westerners, kissing in public to us is immoral, not wearing a headscarf for a Muslim woman can be considered as immoral. Standards of morality also depends on situation, it is immoral to kill but moral to kill the enemy in wars, it may be considered moral to prostitute yourself to earn money to save your dying, starving children etc.
2Cor. 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
The trap the faithful become locked into is that of obedience to authority, which supersedes the content of the orders in favor of obedience. The New Testament promotes the idea of strict obedience to those in authority, no matter what the nature of that authority. Slaves are to obey their masters in all things and women are to obey their husbands, because obedience is the ultimate measure by which we are judged. One is not taught to be guided by moral intuitions, but solely by the rules that are meted out from those in positions of authority that have been arbitrarily given to them by their god. It is not because they earned their positions through merit, but for reasons such as being born male. A father must be given honor by his children no matter how abusive he is, merely because he is their father.
Is there anything wrong with strict obedience to authority or are we supposed to break every secular laws in rebellion to authority? Slavery in ancient times was common throughout the world and it was an acceptable norm. Some slavery was considered as a form of contract work in which if the slave likes to continue to work for their master after their release time, they could continue to do so. Honor your parents means to respect them and to do things that are pleasing to them whenever you can, it does not mean you cannot resist or disobey them if they are in the wrong.
Col.3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord…20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord…22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
I see this passage as a form of mutual respect such as if one obeys the parents in return the parents will love one more. If wife respects the husband, the husband will respect the wife. However some people unfortunately misinterpreted the passages and use it to control over people for selfish reasons.
In all areas of life biblical rules give the utmost value and importance to obedience, which is why throughout history the Church has been able to inflict so much damage upon people, especially women. It matters not the nature of the rules they decree, only that they are obeyed.
It is unfair to target the Churc , how about the non-Christians such as the Romans, the Mongols terrorizing their people. How about Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Polpot killing millions of people so as to support their regimes? Such acts of terrors create fear, loyalty and respects to those people in power.
The Bible declares that God will take vengeance upon those who do not obey the Gospel (the good news of Jesus) and will punish them with everlasting destruction…this is the message that is reiterated over and over again in the New Testament – obedience trumps everything!
2Thess.1:8-10 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
1Pet.4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end [I]be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Unfortunately, zealous Christians take it to the extreme by thinking that forcing Christianity into people's throat is pleasing to God. Same as what Paul during his early days did by persecuting the Christians thinking it is good for the country. That wasn't the characters that Jesus and His apostles projected; they preached without forcing people to become Christians. God prefers people to self-willingly comes to Him.
The conclusion that must be drawn from the opening question, “Is the Bible a Moral Guidebook?” is that one is indeed hard pressed to find much related to morality within the pages of the Bible. Obedience is the key focus, and all benefits come from being obedient, while on the other hand moral commands are occasionally found as bi-products of the many laws and rules given by Yahweh. So, what it really comes down to is either being obedient to Yahweh’s commands, or following your own innate sense of morality…and let me tell you there will be many times that the two will conflict, because what your conscience tells you is right will go against what the Bible tells you is right.
The bible is a moral guidebook. What we read as immoral in the bible are mistaken views taken out of context or due to our lack of understanding of God's wisdom. Obedience and to Love to God are one of the teachings which is regarded as beneficia,l so are other teachings that are taught such as to love thy neighbor as thyself. You don't throw the baby together with the bathwater just because what was taught in the Bible seems to go against your conscience or moral standards. It is ok to rationalize but do it in a positive way; just like you don't rationalize government policies so as to go against the government, knowing that the government policies are well thought out for the benefits of the people, approved by the Parliament or Congress. Jesus said, "those who are not against us, is for us".
God Bless Morality.:pray:
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