Heaven is Real

[CWH]

Heaven is Real....this is a real testimony of a doctor(a neurosurgeon) who returned from the afterlife:

Heaven is real, says neurosurgeon who claims to have visited the afterlife
By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow – Wed, Oct 10, 2012

Dr. Eben Alexander claims to have visited the afterlife (Twitter)
Dr. Eben Alexander has taught at Harvard Medical School and has earned a strong reputation as a neurosurgeon. And while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in the afterlife.
But after a week in a coma during the fall of 2008, during which his neocortex ceased to function, Alexander claims he experienced a life-changing visit to the afterlife, specifically heaven.
"According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent," Alexander writes in the cover story of this week's edition of Newsweek.
So what exactly does heaven look like?
Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language. Alexander says the messages he received from those beings loosely translated as:
"You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever."
"You have nothing to fear."
"There is nothing you can do wrong."
From there, Alexander claims to have traveled to "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting." He believes this void was the home of God.
After recovering from his meningitis-induced coma, Alexander says he was reluctant to share his experience with his colleagues but found comfort inside the walls of his church. He's chronicled his experience in a new book, "Proof of Heaven: A neurosurgeon's journey into the afterlife," which will be published in late October.
"I'm still a doctor, and still a man of science every bit as much as I was before I had my experience," Alexander writes. "But on a deep level I'm very different from the person I was before, because I've caught a glimpse of this emerging picture of reality. And you can believe me when I tell you that it will be worth every bit of the work it will take us, and those who come after us, to get it right."

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/heaven-real-says-neurosurgeon-claims-visited-afterlife-213527063.html

May God Bless Us in our afterlives.:pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Glad you posted this CWH - I was planning on posting it myself. It is very interesting.

I'll talk about it more when I get back on Sunday.

[Gil]

Howdy CHW,

There have been stories told from the ages past up through time to our present about after life experiences.
I think they are real for the most part , but some are inner twined with there own consciousness and they see things that were within their own mind along with the out of body experience.

My oldest son attended a seminar about six years ago just west of where Richard lives. At a ranch where they make a study of Ufo's and Psychic phenomenon. At the foothills of Mt. Adam's .
He claims that all present that were outside in a field had a Ufo that was a huge bright ball of light which came and hovered over them.
There was mix of people from airline pilots, scientists and run of the mill individuals.

Author > Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language.

-------------------

Gil > This is identical to the beings /entities that emerged out of the ball and were around them, that were spoken of in the seminar. The female was also mentioned at the seminar.
The speaker claimed he carries on conversations with her through a telepathic channel where he sees the words as thoughts.
He called them children of Light.

There are many things that are mind boggling such as the Paranormal.
ESP, clairvoyance, mental telepathy, trance state soul travel, and others.
The ancients used deep state meditation on an individual level to see things that could not be seen with the naked eye.
Physic phenomenon is still around as it always has been.

Like anything else that has to do with the mind ,they are probably real in there existing state and operation.
Nothing wrong with studying these things for the sake of knowledge but the Bible says we are supposed to steer away from such things as a direct means of establishing contact with the spiritual realm.
UFO's are fascinating as well.
-------------------
Author > Alexander claims to have traveled to "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting." He believes this void was the home of God.
------------------

Gil > Personally I don't think so [ even though to him it may have appeared as a realty ] .
We just don't know anything about GOD who created prior to the big band or any other beginning which you may choose.
There was a void and all was in darkness as we see what void and darkness appears unto us.

All we know of that GOD is that he is Light and Life.
We can can get a glimpse of his presence as the Spirit which dwells within his Son Jesus Christ .
Jesus said that if you see me ,you have seen the Father, and through my words you hear the Father.

In fact we do not know where we are to go ,into which realm that is a part of the creation after we pass through this flesh.

To me it seems as if he had entered into the vortex of a black hole.
Physical science says there are multitudes of black holes.
If your mind is held together by rubber bands that will stretch far enough it may be conceivable that there
are also spiritual black holes ,where the Physical and Spiritual are merged together into a singular black hole.

He just never went far enough before coming back. If he had continued maybe he would have found himself
to emerge into the light of a new reality .

Anyway it's fun to speculate.

Gil. :pop2:

[CWH]

Howdy CHW,

There have been stories told from the ages past up through time to our present about after life experiences.
I think they are real for the most part , but some are inner twined with there own consciousness and they see things that were within their own mind along with the out of body experience.

My oldest son attended a seminar about six years ago just west of where Richard lives. At a ranch where they make a study of Ufo's and Psychic phenomenon. At the foothills of Mt. Adam's .
He claims that all present that were outside in a field had a Ufo that was a huge bright ball of light which came and hovered over them.
There was mix of people from airline pilots, scientists and run of the mill individuals.

Author > Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent, shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language.

-------------------

Gil > This is identical to the beings /entities that emerged out of the ball and were around them, that were spoken of in the seminar. The female was also mentioned at the seminar.
The speaker claimed he carries on conversations with her through a telepathic channel where he sees the words as thoughts.
He called them children of Light.

There are many things that are mind boggling such as the Paranormal.
ESP, clairvoyance, mental telepathy, trance state soul travel, and others.
The ancients used deep state meditation on an individual level to see things that could not be seen with the naked eye.
Physic phenomenon is still around as it always has been.

Like anything else that has to do with the mind ,they are probably real in there existing state and operation.
Nothing wrong with studying these things for the sake of knowledge but the Bible says we are supposed to steer away from such things as a direct means of establishing contact with the spiritual realm.
UFO's are fascinating as well.
-------------------
Author > Alexander claims to have traveled to "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting." He believes this void was the home of God.
------------------

Gil > Personally I don't think so [ even though to him it may have appeared as a realty ] .
We just don't know anything about GOD who created prior to the big band or any other beginning which you may choose.
There was a void and all was in darkness as we see what void and darkness appears unto us.

All we know of that GOD is that he is Light and Life.
We can can get a glimpse of his presence as the Spirit which dwells within his Son Jesus Christ .
Jesus said that if you see me ,you have seen the Father, and through my words you hear the Father.

In fact we do not know where we are to go ,into which realm that is a part of the creation after we pass through this flesh.

To me it seems as if he had entered into the vortex of a black hole.
Physical science says there are multitudes of black holes.
If your mind is held together by rubber bands that will stretch far enough it may be conceivable that there
are also spiritual black holes ,where the Physical and Spiritual are merged together into a singular black hole.

He just never went far enough before coming back. If he had continued maybe he would have found himself
to emerge into the light of a new reality .

Anyway it's fun to speculate.

Gil. :pop2:

Thanks Gil, I always believe that we should not make conclusions so fast and without convincing proof and say that heaven, hell, God, UFOs. spirits, ESP, trance, clairvoyance, aliens are all the productions of the human mind. If many people (by the millions) have seen or experienced them, we should not just ignore them or reject them as fantasies of the mind without any convincing proof. Such phenomena which are seen or experienced by millions of people should be given the benefit of doubt and should be thoroughly investigated and put under research and experiments so as to find out the truth.

I also believe that there is a thin line between Spiritual and Physical; what is spiritual can also be made physical and what is physical can also be made spiritual. Just as angels are spiritual in heaven but they can also become physical on earth; same with Jesus. Therefore heaven may not necessary be spiritual; it can also be physical. Same as with physical matter which can degrade to their atomic state by fusion energy.

There is nothing wrong with speculation; we speculate all the time don't we?

May God Bless the Truth.:pray:

[Gil]

Howdy CWH,


Yeah , your right CWH, all such phenomenon should to studied and investigated.
As well as all other major religions' , and the various schools of science.
I'm getting to be an old timer now, but have myself put much study in all of them
over the years.
Most hard core Christians and others see anything outside of scripture ( Bible) as
somehow being totally satanic.

I think that they make a big mistake. All, including the mystic and mystery schools
of Egypt , India show both sides of the fence also.

They all contain both good and evil, truth and falsehood, light and darkness.

I don't think that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a bad thing either.
All knowledge is placed in front of us by the creator for his purpose.

What better way to understand the ways of God and Man than to examine them both.

The face of God and the face of Man need to be shown in their own realities.

One cannot discern the Spirits until one can see them face to face.

To know your enemy in any war is a must in order to defeat him.
On an individual level, the best way to defeat ones enemy is to make him your friend.

Another stretch of the mind may be seen from the rudimentary wholes which the ancient alchemy's
spoke of as Spirit /fire/air/water/ earth.
It seems as if modern science is breaking them down into there individual parts.
------------------------

CWH >
I also believe that there is a thin line between Spiritual and Physical; what is spiritual can also be made physical and what is physical can also be made spiritual.

-------------------------

Gil > I think that all is Spirit and spiritual. All of Creation is made Manifest through Spirit.
The first manifestation of the Spirit was Light and the second manifestation of the Spirit was Life.


Lastly, I've always liked the perceptions and concepts of oriental thought.

Gil :pop2:

[David Hurley]

Hi everybody,

I haven't contributed to this forum for a long time... but it's nice to be back!

I just want to reference some three articles in relation to this topic.

Here is Sam Harris's sceptical response: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

And here is Bernardo Kastrup's commenting on Harris's comments about Alexander:

http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2012/10/sam-harris-critique-of-eben-alexander.html

@Richard - I'm looking forward to reading your comments, and would be interested to know what you think about the two articles I've posted here (if you have time to check them).

Thanks,

David

[David M]

To know your enemy in any war is a must in order to defeat him.
On an individual level, the best way to defeat ones enemy is to make him your friend.


Hi Gil
I could not help recalling this verse when I read the above:
(James 4:4) know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


The World should be our enemy. I do not know how you can be a friend with the enemy and a friend with God at the same time. You have to choose one or the other; choose life or death, choose God or mammon; you cannot choose both. Alas it is difficult not to be tainted by the Word, but our first love and priority should be towards God. It is better to live for eternity than to sin for a season. Therefore, it is better to fight the enemy and win the life that will be given us by God.

All the best

David

[Gil]

Howdy David,


Originally Posted by Gil
To know your enemy in any war is a must in order to defeat him.
On an individual level, the best way to defeat ones enemy is to make him your friend.


David > Hi Gil
I could not help recalling this verse when I read the above:
(James 4:4) know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


The World should be our enemy. I do not know how you can be a friend with the enemy and a friend with God at the same time. You have to choose one or the other; choose life or death, choose God or mammon; you cannot choose both. Alas it is difficult not to be tainted by the Word, but our first love and priority should be towards God. It is better to live for eternity than to sin for a season. Therefore, it is better to fight the enemy and win the life that will be given us by God.

All the best

David

----------------

Gil >

My fault David , I did not clarify my own thoughts.
I very seldom quote verses, as for me ,I try to present a picture that everyone may
be able to plug in their own as they see fit.

I was making reference to two separate enemies.
Along the lines of the two greatest commandments.

" Love thy God and Love thy neighbor."

Gil > Quote from above , "To know your enemy in any war is a must in order to defeat him".


Love God :

One must have the knowledge , perception, wisdom , spiritual discernment in determining who
is the Father of Jesus Christ , the Lord of our Lord.

In contrast with the other God's of mammon.

There are many you know.

Where did they begin, these other Gods ?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

It is not so important whether or not angels , Satan or his minions pre existed man ,but the knowledge that they began to make themselves manifest through the mind of man.

Principalities:

746 // arch // arche // ar-khay' //

from 756 ; TDNT - 1:479,81; n f

AV - beginning 40, principality 8, corner 2, first 2, misc 6; 58

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing
in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons
------------
756 // arcomai // archomai // ar'-khom-ahee //

middle voice of 757 (through the implication of precedence);
TDNT - 1:478,*; v

AV - begin 83, rehearse from the beginning 1; 84

1) to be the first to do (anything), to begin
2) to be chief, leader, ruler
3) to begin, make a beginning

Powers :

1849 // exousia // exousia // ex-oo-see'-ah //

from 1832 (in the sense of ability); TDNT - 2:562,238; n f

AV - power 69, authority 29, right 2, liberty 1, jurisdiction 1,
strength 1; 103

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
1a) leave or permission
2) physical and mental power
2a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which
he either possesses or exercises
3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will
and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
4a) universally
4a1) authority over mankind
4b) specifically
4b1) the power of judicial decisions
4b2) of authority to manage domestic affairs
4c) metonymically
4c1) a thing subject to authority or rule
4c1a) jurisdiction
4c2) one who possesses authority
4c2a) a ruler, a human magistrate
4c2b) the leading and more powerful among created beings
superior to man, spiritual potentates
4d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
4d1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover
herself
4e) the sign of regal authority, a crown

All things that were created and formed by GOD ( Spirit and Light/Life) were for his own purpose .
He alone had a plan and purpose for all that he had created and made manifest within the physical, mental and spiritual realms.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Isaiah 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.


Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Gil > The spirit of the Father which was made manifest through his Son.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Gil > You cannot separate the Spirit of the Father and the Son , they are ONE , yet the Father and the Son are separate.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath [days]:

Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.


Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Gil > "air" is Pneuma (spirit). To walk in this world is to have the Spirit of Man as ones head.

The prince was not the power behind the atmospheric region where the wind blows the air around to rustle the leaves on trees.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

109 // ahr // aer // ah-ayr' //

from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to
blow); TDNT - 1:165,25; n m

AV - air 7; 7

1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished
from the higher and rarer air
2) the atmospheric region

Gil > This is the given definition for air.
The translators blew this one.
It can be back tracked from the Greek to the Latin and air is also Pneuma ( Spirit)
we meet the Lord in our Spirit ( pneuma).
At times the translates if unsure of the Greek went to the Latin.In this instance they did not.


GIL > quote from above: "On an individual level, the best way to defeat ones enemy is to make him your friend."

In regard to neighbors , in the same sense as Judah and Israel as wholes were neighbors of the circumcision
yet enemies.
Or when you or your next door neighbor are at odds with one another.
Or when someone you may know and yourself get to the point of beating the crap out of each other.
If you can make him your friend you are no longer enemies.


Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Gil > Same in the Churches today. The back biting, slander and disharmony is still present.

---------
The enemies of God are our enemies whether they be nations or individuals.
Not only does the war in the heavens continue on within our minds but also Upon this Earth.
The war between good and evil .
Jesus Christ was not a pacifist you know.

There is no way that a rational Christian would want to make friends with evil.
We may though as individuals plant seeds of the spirit in even those that are our enemies .
You never know , they may just take root.


More for you to ponder David:

GOD is SPIRIT
The presence of his spirit is within all things created from the beginning.
The presence of his spirit was made manifest in the flesh though his only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
The presence of the spirit of the Father and the presence of the spirit within his Son are ONE spirit.
The presence of the spirit of the Father and the presence of the spirit of his Son ,of the twain are made but ONE spirit
in Christ.
We in Christ are of that spirit. We are all made ONE in Christ.

If you can grasp the magnitude of this, you will find that it is the Christ who has been made manifest to us through
and within the BOC.

The second coming ( appearance) , the second advent is one of the Spirit, not the individual Jesus Christ as a singular entity that futurists await and see as still being future.
The old core Jews still await their Messiah also.

Gil :pop2:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I just read the article Proof of Heaven (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html) by Dr. Eben Alexander. Then I read Sam Harris' absolutely brilliant (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven) and devastating critique of the same. Harris is a neuroscientist so he was well-qualified to detect errors in Alexander's article. He made three points. First, he noted that Dr. Alexander was already a believer who yearned for a deeper Christian experience before the event. Second, Harris said he was appalled at the lack of scientific knowledge displayed in the article. For example:
Everything—absolutely everything—in Alexander’s account rests on repeated assertions that his visions of heaven occurred while his cerebral cortex was “shut down,” “inactivated,” “completely shut down,” “totally offline,” and “stunned to complete inactivity.” The evidence he provides for this claim is not only inadequate—it suggests that he doesn’t know anything about the relevant brain science. Perhaps he has saved a more persuasive account for his book—though now that I’ve listened to an hour-long interview (http://www.skeptiko.com/154-neurosurgeon-dr-eben-alexander-near-death-experience/) with him online, I very much doubt it. In his Newsweek article, Alexander asserts that the cessation of cortical activity was “clear from the severity and duration of my meningitis, and from the global cortical involvement documented by CT scans and neurological examinations.” To his editors, this presumably sounded like neuroscience.

The problem, however, is that “CT scans and neurological examinations” can’t determine neuronal inactivity—in the cortex or anywhere else. And Alexander makes no reference to functional data that might have been acquired by fMRI, PET, or EEG—nor does he seem to realize that only this sort of evidence could support his case. Coma is not associated with the complete cessation of cortical activity, in any case. And to my knowledge, almost no one thinks that consciousness is purely a matter of cortical activity. Alexander’s unwarranted assumptions are proliferating rather quickly. Why doesn’t he know these things? He is, after all, a neurosurgeon who survived a coma and now claims to be upending the scientific worldview on the basis of the fact that his cortex was totally quiescent at the precise moment he was enjoying the best day of his life in the company of angels. Even if his entire cortex had truly shut down (again, an incredible claim), how can he know that his visions didn’t occur in the minutes and hours during which its functions returned?

Third, he explained how neurochemical processes could account for Alexander's experiences, since nearly identical experiences are caused by psychedelic drugs like LSD and DMT. Here are the words with which he ended his refutation:
Again, there is nothing to be said against Alexander’s experience. It sounds perfectly sublime. And such ecstasies do tell us something about how good a human mind can feel. The problem is that the conclusions Alexander has drawn from his experience—he continually reminds us, as a scientist—are based on some very obvious errors in reasoning and gaps in his understanding.

Let me suggest that, whether or not heaven exists, Alexander sounds precisely how a scientist should not sound when he doesn’t know what he is talking about. And his article is not the sort of thing that the editors of a once-important magazine should publish if they hope to reclaim some measure of respect for their battered brand.

I agree completely with Harris' analysis. Alexander's experience does not prove that "heaven is real."

[David M]

Hi to all

This is my take on the subject of heaven and what I have come to believe.

First I will agree with Richard and say that the experience of Dr. Eben Alexander is not proof at all that heaven exists. I believe heaven exists, but not in the way that Dr. Eben believes it does.

If we are talking about the place where God resides outside this earth then we cannot say more than that. God's dwelling place cannot be identified as a specific location within this universe. God can be everywhere and yet we can think of God as residing in a particular place that we cannot point to and say; God is here.

God tells us that His kingdom is to be set up on earth. This is the home of man and this is where man will remain in the future. God wants the earth to filled with His glory and the resurrected people occupying the earth in the future will reflect God's glory. At that time, we are told; God will dwell with man and that is when we can say Heaven (God's dwelling place) is upon earth.

If by heaven we mean paradise, then paradise will be restored on earth, but this will only come about after Jesus returns. It is hopeless and outside the capability of man to do this for himself. 6,000 years of man's history has proven this to be so. Man is destroying the earth and is likely to destroy himself unless God intervenes. It is just wishful thinking to say that man can solve all the world's problems as they are at the moment. I agree it should be within man's capability to do so, bu there is not enough intent and will to do so. Unless a radical change comes about quickly, man is not going to solve the world's problems. It will take the man, Jesus (God's only begotten Son) with all the power of God made available to him to bring the turnaround that is required. "It is not in man to direct his steps" (Jeremiah) and therefore God will show the world that the only way to govern the world will be by God's Son who is righteous and will rule in righteousness and with power to make things happen the way that God wants them to happen.

Do I think people are raised to go to heaven as a place outside of the earth? No! Do I think anyone could have visited a place that has not been located or that we have not been told what this imaginary place looks like? No!

Heaven is real, as God is real, but to say that a person has glimpsed Heaven and returned, is nonsensical in view of Bible teaching of the resurrection. The words of Dr Alexander will give comfort to those who believe in the immortal soul and heaven-going after death and give encouragement to those whose belief is under attack from Richard and alas, I have to say; from me also.

As with all future events, especially life after death, we have to have faith. Future events cannot be proven until they have happened. We have the assurance from God that what He has spoken will come true and there are many fulfilled prophecies by which to believe that God has been true to His word and we have assurance that all of God's word will be fulfilled. Whilst we wait in faith for the future kingdom of God to arrive, we have to make sure we have the right faith and ensure our beliefs are not founded on sand.

Jesus has set the pattern. Jesus died and was in the grave 3 full days. Jesus has been raised and given an immortal body and will live for evermore and he will be sent back to reign on earth and set up God's Kingdom and bring the earth to the point when God's glory will fill the whole earth. This is when those who are resurrected will be like Jesus and share eternity with him in God's kingdom. Of course, I will back this up with scriptures. For the moment, I can say; "we shall be like Jesus as he is now". Here is one verse (1 John 3:2) which confirms this belief; Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

All the best

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jesus has set the pattern. Jesus died and was in the grave 3 full days. Jesus has been raised and given an immortal body and will live for evermore and he will be sent back to reign on earth and set up God's Kingdom and bring the earth to the point when God's glory will fill the whole earth.
Hi David,

There are many points you raise that I would like to discuss, but first I would like clarification on your assertion that Jesus has been resurrected and given an immortal body. Where is his body right now?

Thanks,

Richard

[David M]

Hi David,

There are many points you raise that I would like to discuss, but first I would like clarification on your assertion that Jesus has been resurrected and given an immortal body. Where is his body right now?

Thanks,

Richard

Hello Richard

As you know the body of Jesus was taken up into the sky as the apostles stood and watched him disappear. The body of Jesus is with God. Where is that, nobody can point to and say; God is here.

I can say that Jesus is with God in a place that we cannot find or could ever see while we are in a body of flesh and blood which is sinful. All we can say is that Jesus is with God and is figuratively sat down at the right hand of God and Jesus is in the presence of God making intercession for those who believe on him. That is where the body of Jesus is now until God sends him back to the earth in the same manner as the apostles watched him go.

Saul before he was named Paul, saw a blinding light on the road to Damascus and heard the voice of Jesus speaking to him, but as far as I know, Jesus has not appeared in bodily form on the earth since the time he left the earth go to be with his Heavenly Father in Heaven.

All the best

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard

As you know the body of Jesus was taken up into the sky as the apostles stood and watched him disappear. The body of Jesus is with God. Where is that, nobody can point to and say; God is here.

I can say that Jesus is with God in a place that we cannot find or could ever see while we are in a body of flesh and blood which is sinful. All we can say is that Jesus is with God and is figuratively sat down at the right hand of God and Jesus is in the presence of God making intercession for those who believe on him. That is where the body of Jesus is now until God sends him back to the earth in the same manner as the apostles watched him go.

Saul before he was named Paul, saw a blinding light on the road to Damascus and heard the voice of Jesus speaking to him, but as far as I know, Jesus has not appeared in bodily form on the earth since the time he left the earth go to be with his Heavenly Father in Heaven.

All the best

David

Good morning David,

Well, the Bible actually does give some information about where the body of Jesus is:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Bible is perfectly clear. It says that Christ was resurrected and that he then ascended to heaven to sit on the throne of David and that he must remains IN HEAVEN until the "time of restoration" -
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Bible contradicts your doctrines on a thousand points. Christ has already ascended to the "throne of David" in heaven yet you claim the Bible teaches that there will be a future "throne of David" here on earth. It teaches no such thing. Likewise, the Bible teaches that the dead go to heaven where they are clothed with a heavenly body, but you say they just go to grave:
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 ¶ Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

See what it says? When a believer dies, they receive their new body and reside with Christ in heaven. The uniform teaching of the Bible is that we are now clothed with an "earthly body" but when we die we will be clothed with a "heavenly body" and reside with Christ in heaven. Furthermore, after Christ died and was resurrected and ascended into heaven, he performed actions with his heavenly body:
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

And Moses and Elijah appeared bodily and alive with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. I could go on and on with such examples. At every turn, we find your doctrines contrary to dozens of mutually confirming verses. It must be exhausting trying to maintain such an incoherent set of beliefs! You are forced to explain away verse after verse after verse after verse.

All the best,

Richard

[David M]

Good morning David,

Well, the Bible actually does give some information about where the body of Jesus is:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Bible is perfectly clear. It says that Christ was resurrected and that he then ascended to heaven to sit on the throne of David and that he must remains IN HEAVEN until the "time of restoration" -
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The Bible contradicts your doctrines on a thousand points. Christ has already ascended to the "throne of David" in heaven yet you claim the Bible teaches that there will be a future "throne of David" here on earth. It teaches no such thing.
Hello Richard. You speak of the restitution of all things, so when exactly is the restitution of all things to take place? Is this not future from AD70? Note; heaven must receive Jesus "until" the times of restitution. The times of restitution is when Jesus returns from the Heaven which is where God is. The times of restitution is future.

This is not contradicting at all. If anything, it is your understanding that is in contradiction. For example, Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not Jesus sitting on his own throne. Jesus will take up his throne on earth in Jerusalem when he returns and comes into his kingdom. King David as was confirmed by Peter to be dead, just as King David is dead to this day. King David remains dead until the day of resurrection and that day is future. People who die wait until the day of resurrection. For us who are living, the resurrection can be years ahead, and for those who have died, it is but a short moment in time as though it was a night's sleep.



Likewise, the Bible teaches that the dead go to heaven where they are clothed with a heavenly body, but you say they just go to grave:
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 ¶ Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

See what it says? When a believer dies, they receive their new body and reside with Christ in heaven. The uniform teaching of the Bible is that we are now clothed with an "earthly body" but when we die we will be clothed with a "heavenly body" and reside with Christ in heaven. Furthermore, after Christ died and was resurrected and ascended into heaven, he performed actions with his heavenly body:
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

And Moses and Elijah appeared bodily and alive with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. I could go on and on with such examples. At every turn, we find your doctrines contrary to dozens of mutually confirming verses. It must be exhausting trying to maintain such an incoherent set of beliefs! You are forced to explain away verse after verse after verse after verse.

This is your problem Richard, because you will not explain each verse. You criticize me and others for giving explanations. I can give you explanations, but you never accept what is said; so you are equally entrenched in your own understanding as much as I am entrenched in mine. I hear what you say, but your argument is not convincing me. Your failure to understand what each verse is saying is leading you to take a simplistic approach and thereby miss the deeper meaning and the spiritual truth that underlies the verses. It is the difference between the "milk of the word" and the "meat of the word".

I can give a full explanation of the verses you present above. Your opinions leave as many problems (if not more) to be explained, every bit as much as my explanations do not include every problem that scripture leaves us to ponder about. To deal with the main point of your argument above; those who are raised at the resurrection will be with Christ in heaven (on earth); it is simply a matter of when and where is the heaven that is referred to. As the Apostle Paul explains, there is coming a time when Jesus will return to the earth and some, who are alive, will not see death; these will be transformed. It will be as though they had been resurrected and judged worthy to be in God's Kingdom, and they will be changed and given the glorious immortal body that Jesus has been given. Paul writes (1 Corinthians 15) 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What do you understand by these verses Richard in relation to believers today?

Are you Richard learning anything from the alternative interpretations you are given of the verses you cite? Are you trying to catch me out and prove your own understanding is the correct one? If my doctrine appears to be wrong on dozens of mutually confirming verses, then from my perspective and my understanding of the same verses, the same applies to your doctrine and is wrong. Forget who is right or wrong and stop accusing me of having false doctrines and concentrate on understanding the verses you cite. For example, we need to understand all references to heaven whenever the word heaven is used and which heaven applies in each case. The timing of events needs to be properly understood. From now on, quit all accusations against the person and concentrate solely on the argument.

All the best

David

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard. You speak of the restitution of all things, so when exactly is the restitution of all things to take place? Is this not future from AD70? Note; heaven must receive Jesus "until" the times of restitution. The times of restitution is when Jesus returns from the Heaven which is where God is. The times of restitution is future.

Good morning David,

The meaning of the "restitution of all things" must, like everything else (e.g. the meaning of the "angels that sinned") be explained in light of the meaning of the whole Bible (if we begin with the assumption that the Bible is logically coherent). It is not a valid starting place for any doctrine, but rather must be understood in light of the main and plain things that are confirmed by many witnesses. Thus, we begin with the "Big Picture" of what the Bible actually teaches, which is that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies of the Elijah who was to come when he 1) Warned Israel of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (70 AD) and 2) Prepared the way for Christ. Thus we must understand the "restitution of all things" in light of the fact that Christ said something very similar concerning John the Baptist:
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

How is it possible that John the Baptist "restored all things?" If you can answer this, then you could just as well understand how the restoration of all things happened in 70 AD. This is why it is impossible to insist on any particular meaning of any particular passage. If you do so, then you will contradict yourself when you choose to apply different standards when interpreting similar passages to force a preferred doctrine. This is why all the Christian sects come to conflicting conclusions. They are not consistent in their hermeneutical approach. They begin with their conclusions and make up inconsistent arguments filled with special pleading in an effort to prove them. Such is pure vanity from my point of view because any serious thinker knows that such methodology cannot be trusted to lead to truth.



This is not contradicting at all. If anything, it is your understanding that is in contradiction. For example, Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not Jesus sitting on his own throne. Jesus will take up his throne on earth in Jerusalem when he returns and comes into his kingdom. King David as was confirmed by Peter to be dead, just as King David is dead to this day. King David remains dead until the day of resurrection and that day is future. People who die wait until the day of resurrection. For us who are living, the resurrection can be years ahead, and for those who have died, it is but a short moment in time as though it was a night's sleep.

Your assertion that "Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not Jesus sitting on his own throne" directly contradicts what the Bible says:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

It says that Christ ascended to sit on the throne of David in heaven. It says that the prophecy spoke of Christ's resurrection and ascension to sit on his throne in heaven.

I know of only one NT verse that would support your eschatology:
Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

But this could very well be speaking of heavenly thrones, which coheres perfectly with the rest of the Bible. So it cannot be used to prove your case.

Your assertion that "people who die wait until the day of resurrection" is just your opinion and it contradicts the evidence I presented. E.g. Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, Paul said that we are clothed with a "heavenly house" when we die, etc. If you are correct, then it only proves the Bible is too incoherent to be believed.



This is your problem Richard, because you will not explain each verse. You criticize me and others for giving explanations. I can give you explanations, but you never accept what is said; so you are equally entrenched in your own understanding as much as I am entrenched in mine. I hear what you say, but your argument is not convincing me. Your failure to understand what each verse is saying is leading you to take a simplistic approach and thereby miss the deeper meaning and the spiritual truth that underlies the verses. It is the difference between the "milk of the word" and the "meat of the word".

I have never criticized you for "giving explanations." I criticized you for making up erroneous explanations that contradict many passages in an effort to force your preferred doctrine. There's a big difference.

And it is absolutely false that I "never accept what is said." I accept EVERYTHING that can be demonstrated true based on logic and facts.

There is no equivalence between you and I in this regard. Even when I was a strong Bible believer and shared your presumption that the Bible is true, I did NOT reject the evidence that did not fit my presuppositions. On the contrary, I explicitly stated the facts that contradicted my position and said I simply did not have all the answers. You know this because we just reviewed an old post from 2007 when I rejected the book of Enoch as Scripture but admitted that Jude most likely believed it.

Your idea of "explaining each verse" is a very common technique Christians use to force their doctrines on the Bible - they atomize the text so that the plain meaning is hidden, like shredding a document. Everyone reading Jude in light of Enoch knows perfectly well what Jude believed.



I can give a full explanation of the verses you present above. Your opinions leave as many problems (if not more) to be explained, every bit as much as my explanations do not include every problem that scripture leaves us to ponder about.

That's the KEY to how to resolve competing interpretations. I have explained it many times so I can't tell you how glad I am to see that you understand and agree. The only way to judge between competing interpretations is to count up how many problems one has over the other, relative to how many passages are well-explained. If one interpretation explains 1000 verses and has trouble with ten, it will be much preferred over the interpretation that explains 10 verses and has trouble with a 1000! It is my assertion, after decades of studying Scripture, that Preterism wins a 100 to 1 over Futurism. I'm serious! I really believe that a careful and disciplined study would reveal this fact. I'd love to work on it with you and other folks on the forum.



To deal with the main point of your argument above; those who are raised at the resurrection will be with Christ in heaven (on earth); it is simply a matter of when and where is the heaven that is referred to. As the Apostle Paul explains, there is coming a time when Jesus will return to the earth and some, who are alive, will not see death; these will be transformed. It will be as though they had been resurrected and judged worthy to be in God's Kingdom, and they will be changed and given the glorious immortal body that Jesus has been given. Paul writes (1 Corinthians 15) 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. What do you understand by these verses Richard in relation to believers today?

Well, the problem is that Paul clearly expected those things to happen in the first century, exactly as Christ and all the apostles taught. So again, we can't jump into these passages without establishing some kind of foundation upon the main and plain things. Otherwise, we will be working with contrary assumptions and just be talking past each other. That's the real key - we need to expose the FOUNDATION = ASSUMPTIONS that then determine all the other interpretations.

Great chatting,

Richard

[David M]

Hello Richard
I am pleased with the way our discussion is continuing, though I think now we can draw this discussion to and end and pick up on some of the points we are discussing again in another thread and so stay on topic in this thread..


Good morning David,

The meaning of the "restitution of all things" must, like everything else (e.g. the meaning of the "angels that sinned") be explained in light of the meaning of the whole Bible (if we begin with the assumption that the Bible is logically coherent). It is not a valid starting place for any doctrine, but rather must be understood in light of the main and plain things that are confirmed by many witnesses. Thus, we begin with the "Big Picture" of what the Bible actually teaches, which is that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies of the Elijah who was to come when he 1) Warned Israel of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (70 AD) and 2) Prepared the way for Christ. Thus we must understand the "restitution of all things" in light of the fact that Christ said something very similar concerning John the Baptist:
Matthew 17:11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

How is it possible that John the Baptist "restored all things?" If you can answer this, then you could just as well understand how the restoration of all things happened in 70 AD. This is why it is impossible to insist on any particular meaning of any particular passage. If you do so, then you will contradict yourself when you choose to apply different standards when interpreting similar passages to force a preferred doctrine. This is why all the Christian sects come to conflicting conclusions. They are not consistent in their hermeneutical approach. They begin with their conclusions and make up inconsistent arguments filled with special pleading in an effort to prove them. Such is pure vanity from my point of view because any serious thinker knows that such methodology cannot be trusted to lead to truth.
You raise a question about John the Baptist which I will not avoid, but reserve to answer in another thread when the occasion suits. All I will say for now (to keep this post short) is that I disagree that all things were restored in AD70. John died long before that date. Either all things were restored by John, or they were restored in final after his death. Why stop at AD70 and why not add a couple of thousand which takes into account all prophecy not fulfilled by the end of the first century?



Your assertion that "Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is not Jesus sitting on his own throne" directly contradicts what the Bible says:
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

It says that Christ ascended to sit on the throne of David in heaven. It says that the prophecy spoke of Christ's resurrection and ascension to sit on his throne in heaven.

I know of only one NT verse that would support your eschatology:
Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

But this could very well be speaking of heavenly thrones, which coheres perfectly with the rest of the Bible. So it cannot be used to prove your case.
But what you say; I have already said is speaking of a future time and when heaven is seen as on earth as in the form of; "Thy Kingdom come" Jesus expected God's Kingdom to come on earth and that will happen when Jesus returns to finalize the restitution all things. The earth is not as it was when God first created it. Man is sinful and has to be redeemed and God's kingdom will be filled with people who are not sinful and will live forever. Noway have things been fully restored. We have the assurance that it is God with the help of Jesus who will create all things anew. (Rev 21:5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. This is the vision that John had of Jesus sitting on his throne, but that throne will be a reality on this earth in the future.



Your assertion that "people who die wait until the day of resurrection" is just your opinion and it contradicts the evidence I presented. E.g. Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, Paul said that we are clothed with a "heavenly house" when we die, etc. If you are correct, then it only proves the Bible is too incoherent to be believed.
I prefer to answer this again in another thread. We have already touched on this subject and the transfiguration is one of the mysteries that I included and alluded to when I said that there are things we are left to ponder about. The teaching of the resurrection is a plain and obvious doctrine and it is just your opinion that this contradicts the evidence. As I have explained before Moses and Elijah are two people who we do not have their recorded death. Elijah was taken away by God. God can do whatever he wants in the fulfillment of His purpose and this does not negate the fact that we are taught about the resurrection. Quite clearly this is taught in the New Testament and the word resurrection is used, whereas the word "resurrection" is not mentioned in the Old Testament (or at least the word is not used in the KJV in the Old Testament).



I have never criticized you for "giving explanations." I criticized you for making up erroneous explanations that contradict many passages in an effort to force your preferred doctrine. There's a big difference.
I see no difference, you criticize me for giving erroneous explanations in which it is only your opinion that you say I contradict many passages. My choice is not preferred, it is the result of doing as you agree we should do and examine all the references and come to a consensus of what the majority of the verses mean and support a fundamental doctrine.


And it is absolutely false that I "never accept what is said." I accept EVERYTHING that can be demonstrated true based on logic and facts.
Once again this subject alone will start a long discussion in which we are likely to result in heated exchanges unless we stick to answering the questions. It is logical that if man disobeys God and does not do as God wants men to do, God will punish men according to what God has said He will do. The way God controls and overrides the forces of nature to bring about His punishments are from a scientific understanding not logical. This is why the plagues brought on Egypt, people have explained away logically using natural causes as an explanation. Having come to a natural explanation they proceed to rule out God behind the plagues and ignore the fact that these things happened when God wanted them to happen. Timing is extremely important and God makes things happen. Is it logical when the wind ceased at the command of Jesus?


There is no equivalence between you and I in this regard. Even when I was a strong Bible believer and shared your presumption that the Bible is true, I did NOT reject the evidence that did not fit my presuppositions. On the contrary, I explicitly stated the facts that contradicted my position and said I simply did not have all the answers. You know this because we just reviewed an old post from 2007 when I rejected the book of Enoch as Scripture but admitted that Jude most likely believed it.
Likewise I am not rejecting any of God's word that I do not fully understand and that at first sight does not seem to agree with the overall teaching that I have come to believe. I will accept the overall teaching and then wait for the understanding of the problematical verses to come. It is a mistake to assume the problematical verse must mean something else that would contradict other scriptures. We are both presenting verses to support our case, which the other sees as a contradiction because of our different understanding of other verses. There are so many points of disagreement that until we shall not change until we have exhausted all the areas of disagreement and then we will only change if we recognize a flaw in our argument. Until then let's just present the argument and replies and avoid any reference to person or christian denomination and stick to the facts based on what the Bible says.


Your idea of "explaining each verse" is a very common technique Christians use to force their doctrines on the Bible - they atomize the text so that the plain meaning is hidden, like shredding a document. Everyone reading Jude in light of Enoch knows perfectly well what Jude believed.
I am not forcing a doctrine, I look for support of an already existing doctrine. How can examining every verse in order to understand every way a verse can be explained be wrong? It is wrong not to explore all possibilities before deciding which explanation is the best fit. Not to study each verse is more wrong. The truth will win out in the end.



That's the KEY to how to resolve competing interpretations. I have explained it many times so I can't tell you how glad I am to see that you understand and agree. The only way to judge between competing interpretations is to count up how many problems one has over the other, relative to how many passages are well-explained. If one interpretation explains 1000 verses and has trouble with ten, it will be much preferred over the interpretation that explains 10 verses and has trouble with a 1000! It is my assertion, after decades of studying Scripture, that Preterism wins a 100 to 1 over Futurism. I'm serious! I really believe that a careful and disciplined study would reveal this fact. I'd love to work on it with you and other folks on the forum.
We will work on it, but from my perspective the ratio (if not exactly as high as 100:1) is the other way round in favor of futurism. Until we embark on the exercise and keep a tally, this is just posturing.



Well, the problem is that Paul clearly expected those things to happen in the first century, exactly as Christ and all the apostles taught. So again, we can't jump into these passages without establishing some kind of foundation upon the main and plain things. Otherwise, we will be working with contrary assumptions and just be talking past each other. That's the real key - we need to expose the FOUNDATION = ASSUMPTIONS that then determine all the other interpretations.
I quite expect Paul to have thought the return of Jesus would be soon and maybe in his life-time. There were times when Paul thought it better to be killed and be with Christ, because death was but a moment in sleep for Paul. If Paul knew that the return of Jesus was going to be a long off, his message was designed to give hope and assurance to all generations. It had taken two to three thousand years from when the first prophecies were given speaking of a messiah or a redeemer or a prophet that would finally be revealed as the Son of God; why should it not be thought that another 2,000 years can go by in which to give the Gentiles opportunity to become part of the household of faith that will be saved?
I agree, let's get down to the real foundations that determine the other interpretations. A thread must be started in which to agree the fundamentals to be considered and then see if we can stick to closely discussing one at a time.
I have always said that I will reason from the Bible and we can reason on the basis that is does not matter whether God exists or not or that the Bible has or has not been inspired by God. All we need to do is to understand what the author(s) intended the reader to understand. It goes without saying that if God is the original author giving the inspiration through human writers, God wants us to understand what He has inspired to be written, therefore we must concentrate on the message and work within the framework of the Bible as we have it now. Only at the end of this exercise might we see a harmony that will bring us to the conclusion that the Bible is a collection of divinely inspired books that could not have been put together by independent human authors over centuries of time.

Now we are back on track, if we can proceed along these lines.

All the best

David