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David M
09-13-2012, 03:45 AM
Here is a table comparing the text of the three Gospel writers recounting the discourse given by Jesus on the Mount of Olives.


If you can see any errors in transposing the text into this table from the online Bible, please let me know.
I have done this to try and help us see the correlation between the text and come to some agreement on the order of events to determine whether the all the prophecy has been fulfilled or is ongoing past AD70.

You might see things in the text that will bring light on the discussion going on. Please add your posts if you make any inferences from this comparison table. In compiling this table, I made two observations. I have written posts on these in the other threads including a new post on the parable of the fig tree (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3346-The-parable-of-the-fig-tree).



Matthew
Mark
Luke


24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?


4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles:
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.


8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
(8) these are the beginnings of sorrows.



9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.




14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.




11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.



12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.




20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)



16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
(14) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.




24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.



26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.



31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.






33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.




34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.




35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.





Note: from 24:43 to 26:2 Matthew goes on to recall more parables given by Jesus which Mark and Luke do not record





David

David M
02-19-2014, 04:49 PM
I have come across the following proposed order.



Proposed order of the discourse of Christ on the Mount of Olives.
Red = Matthew 24 Blue = Luke 21





1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon
another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the END of the world?



Post AD70 – history
to time of the end

7 and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.



Pre AD70 and the great sign for those days
for true believers.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:




AD70 and
nation
scattered.

9 : and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the END, the same shall be saved.



Post AD70 –
history to time of
the end

24 and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


The time of the end and the
great sign for those days for
true believers.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,(whoso readeth, let him understand).
16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:



The final time of trouble such as never was and
the return of Jesus Christ tot the earth!

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the
stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Richard Amiel McGough
02-19-2014, 07:48 PM
Hey there David,

Where did you find that arrangement? Do you have a link?

I don't see how it could work because parallel passages are being interpreted as one future and one past. I discussed this question at length with Henry (Twospirits) a few years ago. The problem with your suggestion is that the Olivet Discourse appears in all three Gospels, and it lays out the same events in the same order, so there is no way to consistently divide it up into parts past and parts future. Here is an explanation I posted on March 19, 2011 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2128-The-quot-ye-quot-principle-this-generation-amp-Mt-24-Mark-13-Luke-21&p=29613#post29613):. I was answering Henry's assertion that Luke recorded an entirely different discourse than Matthew and Mark:


OK, so now we are back to the original problem: You want to assert that Matthew and Mark record one event while Luke records another. But as I said, this is impossible because the three accounts are inextricably tangled together. Matthew and Mark agree in one part, Mark and Luke agree in another, and all three agree in a third:


Matt 24:3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke 21:7 Master, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things shall come to pass?

This profound "entanglement" is found throughout all three records of the Olivet Discourse. There is no logically consistently way to argue that Matthew and Mark record one event while Luke records another, especially since all three follow the same basic pattern from beginning to end as seen in this list of parallels:


SYNOPTIC Christ predicts Destruction of the First Century Temple (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Temple)
SYNOPTIC The Disciples ask, When will these things be? (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#When)
SYNOPTIC Jesus answered, Take heed that no man deceive you! (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Deceive)
SYNOPTIC Wars and Rumours of Wars ~ The Six Seals of Revelation (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#War)
SYNOPTIC Persecution for Jesus' Name (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Death)
SYNOPTIC The Days of Vengeance (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Vengeance)
LUKE ONLY Christ Predicts the Dispora (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Diaspora)
MATT/MARK The Great Tribulation (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Tribulation)
MATT/MARK False Christs (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#False)
MATT ONLY As Lightning shineth from East to West (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Lightning)
SYNOPTIC The Coming of the Son of Man (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Coming)
SYNOPTIC The Answer to the Question of "When?" ~ This Generation! (http://biblewheel.com/Theology/Olivet_Discourse.asp#Answer)

All three synoptic Gospels begin with the same set of six parallel passages with only minor variations, and end with the same pair of parallel passages. Thus, all but four subsections are found in each synoptic Gospel, and the parallel passages appear in the same order in all three synoptic Gospels. It seems impossible to assert that such detailed and consistent parallels could be coherently separated into two distinct events.

So now we see two issues you need to overcome: 1) the total entanglement of all three records, and 2) the strong agreement in the overall pattern of all three records. This seems to me an impossible task.

All the best.

This is why the interpretation you suggest cannot work. The passages are obviously talking about the same events, because they use many of the same words and follows the same temporal sequence:


OK - let's take a look at the parallel passages relating to the point that you think begins the future fulfillment:

MATTHEW 24:15-20 [FUTURE]
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

MARK 13:14-18 [FUTURE]
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Now let's compare those with the parallel part from Luke that you say is past:

LUKE 21:20-23 [PAST]
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

See that? Exactly the same words are found in exactly the same order in all three accounts:

And when ye shall see ... desolation ... Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains ... But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!

Given the extreme similarity between these three passages, how is it that you could think that two are future and one is past? Is that not entirely arbitrary and inconsistent?

All the best.

To sum up, all three synoptic Gospels present the same sequence of events, using thirty five identical words in an identical sequence.

And when ye shall see ... desolation ... Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains ... But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!

All the best,

Richard

David M
02-21-2014, 04:42 AM
Hello Richard

Hey there David,

Where did you find that arrangement? Do you have a link? I do not have a link as it was a download as part of a newsletter. The article is to be continued, though the last page which I copied, more or less confirms what I said elsewhere, before I posted the side by side comparison of the texts.


I don't see how it could work because parallel passages are being interpreted as one future and one past. I discussed this question at length with Henry (Twospirits) a few years ago. The problem with your suggestion is that the Olivet Discourse appears in all three Gospels, and it lays out the same events in the same order, so there is no way to consistently divide it up into parts past and parts future. Here is an explanation I posted on March 19, 2011 (http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?2128-The-quot-ye-quot-principle-this-generation-amp-Mt-24-Mark-13-Luke-21&p=29613#post29613):. I was answering Henry's assertion that Luke recorded an entirely different discourse than Matthew and Mark:




OK, so now we are back to the original problem: You want to assert that Matthew and Mark record one event while Luke records another. But as I said, this is impossible because the three accounts are inextricably tangled together. Matthew and Mark agree in one part, Mark and Luke agree in another, and all three agree in a third:

Matt 24:3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke 21:7 Master, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things shall come to pass?

(DM - You have to take into account the subtle differences in the texts as highlighted above)


This profound "entanglement" is found throughout all three records of the Olivet Discourse. There is no logically consistently way to argue that Matthew and Mark record one event while Luke records another, especially since all three follow the same basic pattern from beginning to end as seen in this list of parallels:

SYNOPTIC Christ predicts Destruction of the First Century Temple (DM - but when in total?)
SYNOPTIC The Disciples ask, When will these things be? (DM- they ask different questions as already highlighted)
SYNOPTIC Jesus answered, Take heed that no man deceive you! (DM - and that applies to you and me)
SYNOPTIC Wars and Rumours of Wars ~ The Six Seals of Revelation (DM - but Revelation is future and is after AD70 )
SYNOPTIC Persecution for Jesus' Name (DM - that is the point of Luke's insertion which is not in Matthew or Mark)
SYNOPTIC The Days of Vengeance (DM - that phrase only occurs in v22 of Luke's account)
LUKE ONLY Christ Predicts the Dispora (DM - the Jews were kicked out of the land in AD 135)
MATT/MARK The Great Tribulation (DM - at the The time of The End, The Last Day etc.)
MATT/MARK False Christs (DM - that is true today)
MATT ONLY As Lightning shineth from East to West (DM - a great event that will be noticed )
SYNOPTIC The Coming of the Son of Man (DM - the Son of Man is not mentioned in Luke's account)
SYNOPTIC The Answer to the Question of "When?" ~ This Generation! (DM - the generation alive at the time of seeing these things)


All three synoptic Gospels begin with the same set of six parallel passages with only minor variations, and end with the same pair of parallel passages. Thus, all but four subsections are found in each synoptic Gospel, and the parallel passages appear in the same order in all three synoptic Gospels. It seems impossible to assert that such detailed and consistent parallels could be coherently separated into two distinct events. (DM - you ignore Luke's insertion ( v12 -24) which is different. There could be a second and final fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem at the conclusion of the "age of the Gentiles")

So now we see two issues you need to overcome: 1) the total entanglement of all three records, and 2) the strong agreement in the overall pattern of all three records. This seems to me an impossible task.(DM - maybe you should switch your thinking into lateral thinking and concentrate on the differences.)

All the best.



This is why the interpretation you suggest cannot work. The passages are obviously talking about the same events, because they use many of the same words and follows the same temporal sequence: (DM - events relating to the destruction of the temple in AD70 might not be as complete as you think.)

[QUOTE]
Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
OK - let's take a look at the parallel passages relating to the point that you think begins the future fulfillment:

MATTHEW 24:15-20 [FUTURE]
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (DM - Whilst he AoD could have happened in AD70, there is also thought that is still to happen or could have happened in recent years such as the Pope standing in what is regarded as the most holy place on earth under the Dome of the Rock)

MARK 13:14-18 [FUTURE]
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Now let's compare those with the parallel part from Luke that you say is past:

LUKE 21:20-23 [PAST]
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

See that? Exactly the same words are found in exactly the same order in all three accounts: (DM - not exactly the same. This is why the synoptic gospels show variation according to target audience or the role of Jesus the authors are revealing. In Mark we have events much in order while in Matthew we do not see the same order and Matthew does not write everything in chronological order. We have to make such allowances again perhaps it coming to reconcile these threee accounts in the same way that all of the gospels have to be reconciled and found to be in agreement and that God does not make mistakes)

And when ye shall see ... desolation ... Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains ... But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! (DM - whenever and however many times such events occurred, the same advice applies)

Given the extreme similarity between these three passages, how is it that you could think that two are future and one is past? Is that not entirely arbitrary and inconsistent?
(DM - similar but not entirely identical which is why we have the disagreement in understanding. "Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is only mentioned by Luke and so Luke's account goes beyond the present to which he is referring. As I understand, we are still in the age of the Gentiles and Jerusalem is still being trodden down. The Six-day War in which the Old Quarter of Jerusalem was taken back into control by the Jews was probably not the end of Gentile times (as some thought it was), but might be a sign of the nearness of the End.)
All the best.




To sum up, all three synoptic Gospels present the same sequence of events, using thirty five identical words in an identical sequence.

And when ye shall see ... desolation ... Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains ... But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! We are in the age of the Gentiles and the 'End' of man's rule has not come. I see that some of the prophecy in Daniel can be leading up to the time of AD70, but it is not the End in the sense of man's rule coming to an end. The signs in the Middle East are fulfilling prophecy even now. The Last Day has not come. Jesus is not ruling on the earth. Taking the events that have not happened yet, must mean there fulfillment is future.

God has not cast away Israel and Judah completely. God promised NEVER to do that. In human terms, we should never say never, but in God's terms, NEVER means NEVER. The establishment of the nation of Israel and the continuing return of the Jews, is God fulfilling his promise. Again, the Jews' punishment is not final. The signs are leading to a Great Day, The Day of the Lord, A time such as never was, the End (of man's rule) is still to come. We are in the age of the Gentiles. There are those who have calculated the end of the Gentiles reign according to Daniels prophecies and according to God's timescales, and brings us to the present time and we are or close to "the last generation". At least by 2060 Christ will be ruling on the earth and will have put down the opposition. 2060 was the year calculated by Isaac Newton and hid papers were kept secret. He would have been burned a heretic by the church for his understanding.

I suggest you switch your thinking and work backward from that date in order to be in the correct ball-park and fit the unfulfilled, or partially filled prophecies, near to the present time. The judgements are coming upon the nations that go by their old names mentioned in the Old Testament. Will all the present conflicts in the Middle East blow over and will calm be restored, or is the End (of man's rule) in near-sight?

All the best
David