The “Little Horn” in Daniel 7:8

[gilgal]

Interesting article:
http://www.scarletandthebeast.com/videointro_files/image002.jpg

http://www.scarletandthebeast.com/


The prophet Daniel and the apostle John both saw the above symbol when they prophesied the rise of the beast empire of the last days. When Daniel saw the pyramid capstone, he wrote in Daniel 7:8:



'I considered the [ten] horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.'



Bible prophecy scholars have identified this 'little horn' as the beast empire of the Apocalypse. 'Horn' in Hebrew is literally 'a mountain peak with a ray of light,' or a 'horn that shines.' Figuratively it means a 'power.' The 'eyes' inside the 'little horn' are not plural at all. In Hebrew it is one single 'eye.' In his vision Daniel saw one-half the national emblem of the United States of America. The other half (the Flying Eagle) was also the symbol of ancient Rome.

'Empire of the Beast' ties prophetic Scripture to the birth of our nation, our wars, and our demise. On the bright side, prophetic Scripture locates the headquarters of the evangelical Philadelphia Church Period right here in America.

The Apostle John observed a different aspect of the 'little horn.' The Roman Numerals (MDCCLXXVI) at the base of the pyramid represent the year 1776. Revelation 13:18 calculates the numeric value of the 'Mark of the Beast' as 666. These six underlined numerals, which add up to 666, are the extent of the ancient Roman Numerals. 'M' was a later addition. No other year but 1776 can arrange the numerals in the exact order of the Mark of the Beast.

The two videotape series, 'EMPIRE OF THE BEAST', reveals fulfilled prophecy in the U.S.A. during the years of 1776, 1803, 1848, 1914-17, 1941-45, 1992 & forward; in Europe 1935-45, 1957, 1992; in Palestine 1947-48, 1992 & forward. In fact, there are over 100 end-time Scriptures in this video series referring to the United States of America!

Finally, in the Book of Revelation our Lord Jesus Christ prophesies: (1) how the United States of America will meet her demise; (2) the reason for her demise; and (3) what global events will occur prior to and following her demise.

However, there is hope for this generation! Almighty God never destroys a nation without first giving it warning. That warning is found in the book of Revelation — and rests on the shoulders of the CHURCH in America. This generation of Christians in America can delay God’s wrath on our land by evangelizing our nation. It’s that simple. Will you take the challenge? You can begin by showing this video series to your Sunday School class, then encouraging them to witness.

[TheForgiven]

Hello gilgal,

I appreciate your post, and I Hope you don't mind my response.

If you read the book of Daniel when he talks about the 4rth Beast, of which had the 10 horns, and the 11th horn which has eyes of a man, and spoke great things against the Most High, have you really wondered about the 4rth Beast? Have you also wondered about the Kingdom which destroys the 4rth Beast?

The 4rth Beast was, IMO, the Roman Empire, which no longer exists by the way. The 10 horns were the kings of this Empire. As Daniel looked at the horns, he saw a little horn, probably indicating this was a prince, which pops up while either causing or witnessing three previous horns to be subdued.

The most perfect time in history of the Roman Empire to fit is during the rise of Emperor Vespasian after the death of Nero Caesar, followed by three attempts of Roman Generals to claim the throne. Vespasian became Emperor, and his son TITUS became heir to the throne.

Seeing how Daniel's 4rth beast existed during the time of the Messiah setting up a Kingdom "During the days of these kings / 10 horns", it's impossible to conclude that this Beast represents any nation of our time. Additionally, the entire purpose of Daniel's letter was to talk about the Kingdoms involved of the Jewish captivity, leading up to a predetermined end. The end happened in 70AD, by Emperor Vespasian and his son Titus.

See the connection?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there Gilgal,

This looks interesting. Thanks for posting it!


Interesting article:
http://www.scarletandthebeast.com/videointro_files/image002.jpg

http://www.scarletandthebeast.com/

The prophet Daniel and the apostle John both saw the above symbol when they prophesied the rise of the beast empire of the last days. When Daniel saw the pyramid capstone, he wrote in Daniel 7:8:

'I considered the [ten] horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.'

Bible prophecy scholars have identified this 'little horn' as the beast empire of the Apocalypse.
Well, I find unsupported blanket statements like "Bible prophecy scholars have identified" to be very difficult to believe. Especially when I know that "Bible prophecy scholars" hold a wide variety of opinions as to the identity of the "little horn." But ignoring that, the idea of an "antichrist empire" is not even taught in Scripture! And besides that, the little horn represents a leader in an empire, not an empire itself. In the case at hand, the empire is the fourth Beast of Daniel, which I think can be clearly identified as first century Rome, the same beast that rose from the sea in Rev 13.


'Horn' in Hebrew is literally 'a mountain peak with a ray of light,' or a 'horn that shines.'
Granted that the word "qeren" can mean shine, and it can (rarely) mean "hill" but it does not "literally" mean "mountain peak with a ray of light."


Figuratively it means a 'power.' The 'eyes' inside the 'little horn' are not plural at all. In Hebrew it is one single 'eye.'

That is false. This portion of Daniel is written in Aramaic. The word translated as "eyes" is the plural עינין (ayanin).


In his vision Daniel saw one-half the national emblem of the United States of America. The other half (the Flying Eagle) was also the symbol of ancient Rome.

Pure speculation based on a false analysis of the text.


'Empire of the Beast' ties prophetic Scripture to the birth of our nation, our wars, and our demise. On the bright side, prophetic Scripture locates the headquarters of the evangelical Philadelphia Church Period right here in America.

I don't believe a word of it.


The Apostle John observed a different aspect of the 'little horn.' The Roman Numerals (MDCCLXXVI) at the base of the pyramid represent the year 1776. Revelation 13:18 calculates the numeric value of the 'Mark of the Beast' as 666. These six underlined numerals, which add up to 666, are the extent of the ancient Roman Numerals. 'M' was a later addition. No other year but 1776 can arrange the numerals in the exact order of the Mark of the Beast.

Correct. There's a lot in that number 1776 = 2 x 888 (Jesus) ... I talk about it in my article on the Great Seal (http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_GreatSeal.asp).


The two videotape series, 'EMPIRE OF THE BEAST', reveals fulfilled prophecy in the U.S.A. during the years of 1776, 1803, 1848, 1914-17, 1941-45, 1992 & forward; in Europe 1935-45, 1957, 1992; in Palestine 1947-48, 1992 & forward. In fact, there are over 100 end-time Scriptures in this video series referring to the United States of America!

Finally, in the Book of Revelation our Lord Jesus Christ prophesies: (1) how the United States of America will meet her demise; (2) the reason for her demise; and (3) what global events will occur prior to and following her demise.

I think that quote in the red is an inexusable abuse of God's Holy Word. As if the final book that seals the God's Biblical Revelation were a secret code book that tells the screenplay of the last three and half years of some self absorbed nation in the twentyfirst century? So it meant NOTHING to John? It meant NONTHING to all the first century Christians to whom it was addressed by the LORD JESUS CHRIST Himself? And the Capstone of the Holy Bible is now revealed to be nothing but a carnal political thriller like so much pulp fiction? How does THAT serve as the REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST????

Aarrrggg... :mad:


However, there is hope for this generation! Almighty God never destroys a nation without first giving it warning. That warning is found in the book of Revelation — and rests on the shoulders of the CHURCH in America. This generation of Christians in America can delay God’s wrath on our land by evangelizing our nation. It’s that simple. Will you take the challenge? You can begin by showing this video series to your Sunday School class, then encouraging them to witness.

Right. So now the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST is tranformed into a moneymaking end of the world pep talk for self-absorbed American churches? Great!

Aarrrggg... :mad:

Somebodies gotta start teaching some real eschatology to America! We are NOT the center of the BIBLE STORY! We didn't even exist until 1776 and now this guy want's to boot Christ outa the lime light and put AMERICA center stage of the HOLY BIBLE?!? That is an ABOMINATION of false teaching.

Aarrrggg... :mad:

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello gilgal,

I appreciate your post, and I Hope you don't mind my response.

If you read the book of Daniel when he talks about the 4rth Beast, of which had the 10 horns, and the 11th horn which has eyes of a man, and spoke great things against the Most High, have you really wondered about the 4rth Beast? Have you also wondered about the Kingdom which destroys the 4rth Beast?

The 4rth Beast was, IMO, the Roman Empire, which no longer exists by the way. The 10 horns were the kings of this Empire. As John looked at the horns, he saw a little horn, probably indicating this was a prince, which pops up while either causing or witnessing three previous horns to be subdued.

The most perfect time in history of the Roman Empire to fit is during the rise of Emperor Vespasian after the death of Nero Caesar, followed by three attempts of Roman Generals to claim the throne. Vespasian became Emperor, and his son TITUS became heir to the throne.

Seeing how Daniel's 4rth beast existed during the time of the Messiah setting up a Kingdom "During the days of these kings / 10 horns", it's impossible to conclude that this Beast represents any nation of our time. Additionally, the entire purpose of Daniel's letter was to talk about the Kingdoms involved of the Jewish captivity, leading up to a predetermined end. The end happened in 70AD, by Emperor Vespasian and his son Titus.

See the connection?

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Joe
:congrats: Well stated Joe.

[gilgal]

Ok maybe you're right that the beast may not be a futuristic system.

But still some questions are not solved.

Who are the 10 horns then?

Who is the 11th horn?

There are many speculations to this but no definite answer to the letter.

The author John Daniel may not be a 100% correct ( because even Fritz Springmeier the author of the Bloodlines of The Illuminati said that he was disappointed on his work. This was on a video. When he said that, the video ended. So I never got to know why he disagreed. )

But it does talk about the restoration of the Atlantis talked about I believe by Plato.


27
HEADQUARTERS OF THE BEAST EMPIRE
The world will be at ease - banquets and parties and weddings -just as it was in
Noah's time before the sudden coming of the flood: people wouldn't believe what
was going to happen until the flood actually arrived and took them all away. So
shall my coming be.
Matthew 24:37-391
The Atlantis Legend
Every ancient culture tells the story of a prehistoric civilization destroyed by flood.
Apart from the Biblical account of Noah's flood, the most renowned is the legend of
the sinking of Atlantis. Ignatius Donnally, in Atlantis; The Antediluvian World,
compares the Biblical account with this Greek legend:
The [Biblical] Deluge plainly refers to the destruction of Atlantis, and agrees in
many important particulars with the account given by Plato. The people destroyed
were, in both instances, the ancient race that had created civilization; they had
formerly been in a happy and sinless condition; they had become great and
wicked; they were destroyed for their sins - they were destroyed by water.
2
The earliest of secret societies were obsessed with the legend of Atlantis.
Freemasonry is no exception. William Still, in New World Order, informs us that
"[a]ccording to Masonic sources, the most important mystery of secret societies is an
ancient plan, passed down for thou-sands of years by oral tradition, for the
establishment of a world government - a 'universal democracy' - a 'New Atlantis'."
3
Old Atlantis was believed by Freemasonry to have been a democracy. Legend
states that it was also an advanced scientific society. In fact, it is reputed to have
been the center of learning. Still explains:
Secret societies believe that in Atlantis stood a great university where most of
the arts and sciences originated. The structure that housed this university was an
immense pyramid with many galleries and corridors, with an observatory for the
study of the stars sitting on its immense apex.
4
Mackey's Encyclopedia of Free masonry says that from this legend "developed a
long-lasting tale of a continent in the Atlantic, somewhere west of the Straits of 607

[gilgal]

Here's the continuation from the Scarlet And The Beast:

Gibraltar, once covered with civilization, which sank suddenly under the waves."
5
Explorers have searched for "lost Atlantis" in the Mediterranean, west and south of
Africa, South America, and off the east coast of the United States. In 1932 Edgar
Cayce (1877-1945), a psychic from Kentucky, reportedly pinpointed Atlantis. To no
one's surprise Cayce said it was where Plato had located it, in the Atlantic Ocean,
though Cayce did not specify exactly where in that great watery expanse somewhere
between the Mediterranean and the Gulf of Mexico. Then, he made another
prediction that Atlantis would one day rise up out of the sea near the Caribbean
island of Bimini.
6
Can we find any connection between the Atlantis of ancient legend and the location
of the Beast empire? Surprisingly, the apostle John gives a description similar to
Cayce's of the Beast empire in Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the
sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and
upon his horns ten crowns....
The numbers seven and ten from this verse in Revelation correlate with the
Atlantean legend. Still states that "some 10,000 years before the Greek civilization,
Atlantis was ruled in complete harmony by a cooperative commonwealth of ten kings,
known as the Atlantic League. Seven of these kings ruled over the seven islands that
actually made up what was called the 'continent of Atlantis.' The other three kings of
the Atlantean kingdom ruled over the other three known continents:
Europe, Asia, and Mrica."
7
The legend states that these ten kings were brothers, which may mean they
belonged to a brotherhood similar to Freemasonry. Freemasonry believes the number
"10" is significant when applied to government. Manly P. Hall, a 33rd degree Mason,
explains:
The league of ten kings is the cooperative commonwealth of mankind, the
natural and proper form of human government. Atlantis, therefore, is the archetype
or the pattern of government, which existed in ancient days but was destroyed.. 8
Like the Biblical story, the legend of Atlantis states that its destruction was due in
large part to its passion for limitless luxury. No longer did the Atlanteans value
goodness above material wealth. Plato says, "The portion of divinity within them was
now becoming faint and weak through being ofttimes blended with a large measure
of mortality. "
9
Loving their possessions above all else, the Atlanteans had lost their virtue. And
now the seven kings of the seven isles of Atlantis amassed a great army to conquer
the three continents. Because of their greed for power, the father of the gods (Zeus)
caused the seven islands (seven heads) of Atlantis, with its population, to sink
beneath the waves.
10608

[gilgal]

And it continues:

Freemason Hall states that when Atlantis died, so did the "ideal pattern of
government." According to Hall, the "league of ten kings" is part of the "Secret
Doctrine" preserved by secret societies through their oral traditions. Hall believes that
when the unifying force of the ten kings was broken, destruction automatically
followed. "So complete was this destruction," he writes, "that men forgot there is a
better way of life, and accepted the evils of war and crime and poverty as
inevitable.... The old Atlantis is gone, dissolved in a sea of human doubts. But the
Philosophical empire would come again, as a democracy of wise men."
11
Freemasonry planned long ago to philosophically raise Atlantis out of the sea, and
in this new land, reestablish democracy as a New World Order. Masonic author
George H. Steinmetz confirms in Freemasonry:
Its Hidden Meaning that the democratic philosophy of Freemasonry has been traced
back to the "Lost Continent of Atlantis."
12
He attempts to prove that Atlantis was a
Masonic society by suggesting that the destroyed temples of upper Egypt are all part
of that Atlantean destruction: "There [in Egypt] we find their ruined temples which,
compared with our lodge rooms, have similar floor plans, the same 'dark north,' and
many of the same emblems."
13
Finally Steinmetz says that one cannot understand the
universality of Freemasonry without accepting the Atlantean account.
14
Hall concurs: "Masonry is a university, teaching the liberal arts and sciences of the
soul to all who will attend to its words. It is a shadow of the great Atlantean Mystery
School, which stood with all its splendor in the ancient City of the Golden Gates,
where now the turbulent Atlantic rolls in unbroken sweep. "
15
Hall suggests that the antediluvian civilization was democratic, that Freemasonry
planned over three centuries ago to recreate a universal democratic society that will
philosophically "rise up out of the sea," and like Atlantis, join with ten kings to lead
mankind in the pursuit of universal happiness. He says that the Christian Church has
delayed the search for the "New Atlantis." And he alludes to the ancient Roman
empire as the last attempt at resurrection of the Atlantean project and states that
another attempt would be made.
16
We can see how Freemasonry's planned resurrection of Atlantis correlates with
Daniel's prophecy of a revived Roman empire. Likewise, John's vision of the Beast
with ten horns (representing ten kings) is more significant in this regard given the
fact that Freemasonry calls for its one-world government to be patterned after the
"Atlantean League" often kings. Therefore, to locate the headquarters of Freema-
sonry's "New Philosophical Atlantis," Daniel's revived Roman empire, and John's
Beast, we must search for a land that meets the following requirements:
1. If old Atlantis was democratic, then New Atlantis will be democratic and most
likely be born of Templar French Freemasonry, the father of modern democracy.
2. John's Beast and Freemasonry's "Philosophical Atlantis" will figuratively rise up 609

[gilgal]

And it continues:

out of the sea in the Atlantic Ocean, somewhere west of the Straits of Gibraltar
where old Atlantis was alleged to have sunk.
3. If resurrected west of the Straits of Gibraltar, Daniel's revived Rome will be a
new land in a new world populated from the territory of the old Roman empire.
4. Daniel's uncivilized Beast will be born in an uncivilized western land bordered by
water - from Daniel's vantage point at Babylon - a land in the extreme west.
5. John's Beast will eventually unite with ten kings as did old Atlantis.
Unlike Edgar Cayce, Hall is not looking for ancient Atlantis to literally rise out of the
sea, but rather, looks to America as the nation that will represent "Philosophical
Atlantis." In America's Assignment With Destiny, he writes, "The explorers who
opened the New World operated from a master plan and were agents of re-discovery
rather than discoverers."
17
In a second book, The Secret Destiny of America, Hall
claims that the unifying goal of ancient secret societies was to create a "New Atlantis"
beyond the Atlantic Ocean, in what is now called America. "The bold resolution," he
said, "was that this western continent should become the site of the philosophic
empire."
18
Still explains that "America, according to this Great Plan, was to become the first
nation to begin to establish a 'universal democracy,' or 'world commonwealth of
nations.' This quest was said to be the most noble pursuit to which a man could
devote himself."
19
America: The New Atlantis
The first modern philosopher to promote America as the New Atlantis was Sir
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), an English lord and Sionist-Rosicrucian. As an occultist
well-versed in the "Great Plan," Bacon concealed the "Secret Doctrine" in a novel
entitled New Atlantis, in which he laid out the plan for a utopian society to be built on
this newly discovered continent. Masonic authors Marie Bauer Hall and Manly P. Hall
respectively say of Bacon:
[Bacon] is the Founder of Free Masonry.. the guiding light of the Rosicrucian
Order, the members of which kept the torch of true universal knowledge, the
Secret Doctrine of the ages, alive during the dark night of the Middle-Ages.
20
Bacon had been initiated into the new liberalism represented throughout Europe
by secret societies of intellectuals dedicated to civil and religious freedom.... Later,
when the moment was propitious, he threw the weight of his literary group with
the English colonization plan for America.. cherishing as he did the dream of a
610

[gilgal]

And it continues:

great commonwealth in the New Atlantis.
21
Still says, "Baconian scholar and Masonic enthusiast Marie Bauer Hall believes this
Great Plan has been perpetuated by an international group of only the highest
initiates of the secret societies."
22
We have seen how this international group has changed its name many times to
conceal the Great Plan. Bacon was the first of modern philosophers to reveal this plan
as a Masonic blueprint for America. The hierarchy in his day was the Priory of Sion,
operating through the Order of Rose-Croix, and later the Royal Society. It was then
usurped by the Knights Templar, who initially operated through the Illuminati, then
the Palladian, and now through Lucis mist.
Rosicrucian Sir Walter Raleigh, a member of a secret society named after Bacon
(the Baconian Circle), began the British exploration in America in 1585, settling off
the coast of North Carolina on Roanoke Island. His colony failed and England did not
attempt colonization again for a generation.
Meanwhile, in 1603 the Priory of Sion lost Great Britain to the Templars when
James Stuart VI of Scotland ascended the British throne as King James I. German
Rosicrucians immediately went into action, founding Rosicrucian Freemasonry in
England, then backing Cromwell to dethrone the Templar Stuarts. Many Protestants
joined Cromwell's cause. Finally, in 1717 the Stuarts, with their Templar Freemasonry,
were deported to France.
During the on-and-off English revolution that spanned the latter half of the 17th
century, the New World was colonized by British and European Protestants fleeing
persecution. In 1733 English Freemasonry entered America, founding St. John's
Lodge at Boston. Boston, in effect, became the Masonic capital of Britain's
transatlantic colonies. Between 1733 and 1737, Grand Lodge England chartered
additional provincial lodges in Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania and South
Carolina. These lodges contained only three degrees.
Templar Freemasonry, having been weakened by exile to France, had no strength
to establish a base in America. Unimpeded, English Freemasonry planned to
inaugurate the Great Plan contained within her Secret Doctrine. Happily for America,
most of the settlers were Christian, hence, the Great Plan was forced to operate more
slowly from within the newly organized English lodges.
The Templars in America
One of the requirements of the Beast empire is that it be a democratic nation born
of Templar French Freemasonry, the father of modern democracy.
Michael Baigent, co-author of The Temple and The Lodge, has traced the 611

[TheForgiven]

Ok maybe you're right that the beast may not be a futuristic system.

But still some questions are not solved.

Who are the 10 horns then?

Who is the 11th horn?

There are many speculations to this but no definite answer to the letter.

Hello gilgal. Might I recommend something a minister once told me when I once thought Revelation was future? He said, "Joe! Have you ever tried placing yourself in the days of the reader, when these visions first appeared?" I replied, "Well why would I do that if these are future events?" His answer was, "If you admit they are future, then how will you ever know WHAT comes to pass, and IF those past events are applicable to something prophesied more than 2000 years ago." Needless to say, that made sense to me, but I will still hooked on the Jack Vanimpie video's.

Our largest problem with prophesy, and let's be honest here, is that we actually want to see doom and gloom. Why? Because of the Rapture teaching that says Christians would be spared, immediately resurrected with the dead (or after the dead in Christ), and watch from heaven as the earth enters into chaos. This is a trap my friend, and please set yourself free from it. Don't get caught up in the current day Taboo and date setting (even if it means guessing the years, decades, and/or generations. :Date_Setting: One false predictions leads to another false prediction, or even application of these prophesies, and in truth, it removes us from the truth about all prophesy anyways....and the truth is Jesus Christ; The Messiah.

Every prophesy has a point and a goal, and it's pretty sad to think that someone like me has been consumed with prophesy soooooo long, that I lost focus on the reason for any prophesy; and that's Jesus. If we're not careful, we'll end up going crazy, and sometimes I feel as though I'm close to it. :lol: ....end of speach.

Try putting on a pair of "First Century" glasses, and let go of the present day, and watch your interpretation's transform.....just try it and see. But before you can do that, you'll have to do a little History work. Ask yourself, "What were the times like? What was going on that spawned the need for this prophesy? Who was in charge at the time? Who was talking or writing the letter? What was its point or conclusion?" Ask these things and any prophesy will start to come together.....and most importantly, IT WILL MAKE SENSE! ;)

Now about the horns, I will show you my opinion of their application. But again, it's not the horns which are important, but the conclusion. For the scripture says, "In the days of these kings (The horns), the God of Heaven (Jesus) will set up a kingdom which shall have no end, and shall never be destroyed [as the other kingdoms were]" [my emphasis]

We know without a doubt that the Kingdom is the Church of God and of His Christ. Ask yourself this, "Has the Church ever been over-taken by a nation and suffered defeat as the former nations have?" The answer is no. And what Kingdom existed when Christ came to set up a Kingdom? Rome! What kings ruled over Rome? The list is below. Finally, of these kings, is there a time in history where three were killed and one rises to power? Yes! The one which rises to power after three prior were subdued, does this horn fit the discription as "eys of a man" indicating wisdom, and "arrogant" speaking great words against God? The answer is yes, but two possible kings. The question remains, does the little horn indicate this person is an heir to the throne, or the king himself? To me, it's not important. Please review the list below.

1. Pompey .................... 63 B.C.
2. Julius Camir ........... 47-44 B.C.
3. Augustus Caesar ...... 37 B.C.-A.D. 14
4. Tiberius Caesar ........ A.D. 14-37
5. Caligula Caesar ........ A.D. 37-41
6. Claudius Caesar ....... A.D. 41-54 -
7. Nero Caesar ............. A.D. 54-68

Nero commits suicide. Three Roman Generals tried claiming the throne but were subdued.

8. Galba ....................... A.D. 68-69
9. Otho ......................... A.D. 69
10. Vitellius .................... A.D. 69

Finaly, one comes to power and fulfills the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem in 70AD. He has two sons: Titus and Domitian. But Titus is the one who received credit for putting an end to the long Jewish war.

11. Vespasian ................. A.D. 69-79 (Little Horn?)

or

11. Titus..........................prince and heir to the throne (more than likely the little horn)

There you go, and I hope you find this worthy of study. God's blessing and peace to you all.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Ok maybe you're right that the beast may not be a futuristic system.

But still some questions are not solved.

Who are the 10 horns then?

Who is the 11th horn?

There are many speculations to this but no definite answer to the letter.

Hey there my friend,

I think the problem is that many folks have assumed a futuristic view of Revelation. This then leads to impossible interpretations and "many speculations" because their system begins with a fatal flaw - a false assumption.

Suppose that Almighty God really did give the Revelation for the reasons He stated in Rev 1:1-3. Suppose that He gave it to reveal to His servants "things which must shortly come to pass" because the time really, truly, factual, literally was near, that is, about to happen in the first century. Whether this is true or not needs to be determined, but in no case can it be ignored as a possibility because it is what a plain, ordinary, normal, literal reading of the text says.

This is the fundamental question that must be answered before any attempt to discover the identity of the ten horns.

This actually is an extremely appropriate study for todya because today is the first day of Hanukkah, which celebrates the rededication of the Temple after the "little horn" (Anitochus Epiphanes) of Daniel 8 desectrated it. Just google "little horn" and Antiochus to find all the info you need. Here's a couple good links:

http://www.rbvincent.com/dan8.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~russkellysdafile/id17.html

It is a popular saying that "those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it." I would modify that to say "those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat every error ever uttered about the book of Revelation."

Richard

[MHz]

At least the author (of the 1st link) left an email address, a lot of times there is no chance for a follow-up question when following a link. Should I let you know how it goes?

There now you can chastise me for taking the thread off course. I'll PM you about that other thread and why I said what I said.

The first article has a few links to works other than the Bible, which is the first and final authority. Taking the words of 'uninspired men' as being 'Gospel' is different from following 'false-christs' how? There isn't a 100% probility that they are 100% correct 100% of the time.
I would say that applies more to authors that sell their material for money rather than chat forums like this one. We can back-track, once a book is on the shelves that's it, if you change you mind at some point I would think you owe everybody who bought one a total refund.

.

[gilgal]

What you mentioned is definitely worth the study.

The arrival of the Kingdom of God was mentioned in the Gospel and occured during the Roman Empire as they seized control over Palestine. Remember Jacob said to Judah:

Genesis 49:10The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Exactly ( maybe a few years after ) the birth of Jesus Christ Palestine became a Roman province.

But since there are many double or multiple level fulfillments of prophecies.

Example:
Passover
Moses and the children of Israel celebrated in Egypt ( Exodus 12-14 )
Jesus and Israel celebrated 2000 years later.
Additionally many times over Israel celebrated with some events occurring like
Joshua's 1st celebration in the land of Canaan when they named Gilgal where their sins were rolled away.

God's promise to King David:
Both 1 Samuel and 1 Chronicles show a promise by God to David but one promise is fulfilled in his son King Solomon and the other is fulfilled in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, a thousand years later.

The same must be true considering that during the Messiah's second coming there are ten kings just as there were ten during Joshua's conquest of Canaan with Adonizedek their leader.



This actually is an extremely appropriate study for todya because today is the first day of Hanukkah, which celebrates the rededication of the Temple after the "little horn" (Anitochus Epiphanes) of Daniel 8 desectrated it. Just google "little horn" and Antiochus to find all the info you need. Here's a couple good links:
I'm aware of that but similarly Jesus mentioned in his prophecy that the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet was not something in the past, but rather futuristic. Therefore a double ( or multiple ) fulfillment is the case.


Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Antiochus was long dead when Jesus mention this!

But this is why I pray that the biblewheel research would pick up some speed so that we can understand the bible better.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

At least the author (of the 1st link) left an email address, a lot of times there is no chance for a follow-up question when following a link. Sould I let you know how it goes?

There now you can chastise me for taking the thread off course. I'll PM you about that other thread and why I said what I said.

The first article has a few links to works other than the Bible, which is the first and final authority. Taking the words of 'uninspired men' as being 'Gospel' is different from following 'false-christs' how? There isn't a 100% probility that they are 100% correct 100% of the time.

I would say that applies more to authors that sell their material for money rather than chat forums like this one. We can back-track, once a book is on the shelves that's it, if you change you mind at some point I would think you owe everybody who bought one a total refund.

.
Hey Joe,

So you're harrassing that poor innocent Bible preacher whose feeding that wonderful and nutritious gravel to his sheep? How dare you?! :nono:

:lol:

Yes, please let us know what comes of it.

Richard

PS: As for the money changers - they are always so transparent. I remember when false teacher Michael Rood (http://www.areallyrudeawakening.com/) was fleecing his sheep to the tune of $70 (http://michaelroodministries.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ARA&Product_Code=JONAH70&Category_Code=Video) for a dvd set to learn the greatest "revelation" from Almighty God that any PROPHET OF YAWEH has $OLD to God's Flock called "The Jonah Code." Its pathetic how they all pick up on the latest marketing craze. The Da Vinci Code, the Bible Code, the Diet Code, the TBN Get Rich Quick By Giving Me All Your Money Code - bleh.

[gilgal]

Yeah Michael Rude...I mean Rood. He mentioned that the King James Version was a pagan translation.

He kept on emphasizing for us to keep the Jewish Feasts.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The same must be true considering that during the Messiah's second coming there are ten kings just as there were ten during Joshua's conquest of Canaan with Adonizedek their leader.

Agreed - there could be double fulfillments. But we gotta get our feet on the ground of established and confirmed fulfillments before we will be able to understand future possibilities.

This is what happened to me. After studying diligenty to get a "birds eye view" of the Bible so I could complete the Bible Wheel book, I found that I also saw that the whole focus of the whole Bible was on the first century coming of Jesus Christ - His birth, life, death, resurrection, judgment on Jerusalem and establishment of His Kingdom that will never end. The historical fact of the fulfillment had burst the futuristic bubble. It just doesn't make any sense to try to replay the first century.


I'm aware of that but similarly Jesus mentioned in his prophecy that the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet was not something in the past, but rather futuristic. Therefore a double ( or multiple ) fulfillment is the case.

I agree it is possible, but the primary point is that the whole complext of prophecies that pop prophecy teachers use to formulate their futuristic scheme can not all have a double-fulfillment that brings together all the pieces just like it did in the first century becuase everything is different now. There is no Roman empire, Jewish Temple, etc, and that's why everything has to be RE-invented. We get a RE-vived Roman empire to RE-desecrate the RE-built Temple. It just doesn't fly in my book because there is no motivation or reason to believe any of it from the get-go. I mean, what is there in the Bible that suggests any of that is going to happen again?


Antiochus was long dead when Jesus mention this!

There are two ways to understand this. 1) There are two Abominations of Desolation in Daniel, on in 167 BC and one in 70 AD, or 2) Jesus was using the AOD as a type of the future desolation that happened in 70 AD.


But this is why I pray that the biblewheel research would pick up some speed so that we can understand the bible better.
That would be nice! But it seems that most folks are more interested in discussing eschatology right now .... I certainly appreciate the contributions you have made.

God bless you bro! Great chatting,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Yeah Michael Rude...I mean Rood. He mentioned that the King James Version was a pagan translation.

He kept on emphasizing for us to keep the Jewish Feasts.
Yep - and he slanders the genuine Christian Faith as "pagan sun god worship." He also LIES about being a Jew. He's a goy all the way, born and raised Baptist and then he joined the Way International anti-trinitarian cult. But he hides that now and pretends to be a "Messianic Rabbi!" And we mustn't forget that he made a bunch of false Y2K predictions and had to eat crow on that ... but sheep have short memories, so they still are sending him their money because he looks and acts like a carnal Jew and thats what some folks want. A show.

Richard

[gilgal]

I think it would be worth studying the political system of Rome.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum had written in The Footsteps of the Messiah ( then again he emphasizes the rapture but made some points worth digging into ).

He mentioned that Rome went through 6 stages of politics ( ...five are fallen, one is and one is to come... Revelation 17 ).

For example:

Fruchtenbaum offers a unique interpretation of the seven heads as types of Roman Government: the Tarquin Kings (753-510 B.C.); the Counsulors (510-494 B.C.); the Plebians or Dictators (494-390 B.C.); the Republicans or Decimverse (Oligarchy of Ten, 390-59 B.C.); the Triumvirate (59-27 B.C.); imperialism (27 B.C. - present); absolute imperialism (the Antichrist). [Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, The Footsteps of Messiah, rev ed. (Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries, 2003), 42] Scott offers a related view, “The seven heads on the Beast represent seven successive forms of government from the rise of the fourth universal empire on through its history till its end. ‘Five have fallen.’ These are Kings, Consuls, Dictators, Decemvirs, and Military Tribunes. ‘One is.’ This is the sixth, or imperial form of government set up by Julius Caesar, and under which John was banished to Patmos under Domitian.”—Walter Scott, Exposition of The Revelation (London, England: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), Rev. 17:9-13. Neither view provides a head for the beast which the Harlot sits upon if she is a mother of harlots that predates the early Rome.
http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/04030204.htm#93165

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I think it would be worth studying the political system of Rome.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum had written in The Footsteps of the Messiah ( then again he emphasizes the rapture but made some points worth digging into ).

He mentioned that Rome went through 6 stages of politics ( ...five are fallen, one is and one is to come... Revelation 17 ).

For example:

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/04030204.htm#93165
That is an interesting view of Rome. I've never seen it before. Hey Joe, what do you think of it?

The problem is that he is basing his idea on the assumption of a fulfillment far in the future (relative to the first century). The first question therefore is "why should we begin with the assumption of a far future fulfillment?"

I have not found a satisfactory answer for that yet. I read a bunch of Sir Robert Anderson's book "The Coming Prince" yesterday, and all he did was assume and assert a far future fulfillment without giving hardly any supporting evidence. Its so absurd I'm gonna write a review of it. He said that the evidence for the "gap" in Daniel's seventy weeks is that its not mentioned in the text! :eek: Does anyone know who started that "gap" theory?

Richard

[gilgal]

Yep - and he slanders the genuine Christian Faith as "pagan sun god worship." He also LIES about being a Jew. He's a goy all the way, born and raised Baptist and then he joined the Way International anti-trinitarian cult. But he hides that now and pretends to be a "Messianic Rabbi!" And we mustn't forget that he made a bunch of false Y2K predictions and had to eat crow on that ... but sheep have short memories, so they still are sending him their money because he looks and acts like a carnal Jew and thats what some folks want. A show.

Richard

There were somethings that I still wonder though. What about his mentioning of new moon feasts when someone spots a new moon and they call for two witnesses and say to them "come up hither!" and they have a feast? That custom sounds similar to the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There were somethings that I still wonder though. What about his mentioning of new moon feasts when someone spots a new moon and they call for two witnesses and say to them "come up hither!" and they have a feast? That custom sounds similar to the two witnesses of Revelation 11.
The new moon feasts are mentioned in the Bible, but I don't know anything about "come up hither" associated with the two folks who are supposed to witness the new moon. Where did you get this idea? What is its source?

[gilgal]

That is an interesting view of Rome. I've never seen it before. Hey Joe, what do you think of it?

The problem is that he is basing his idea on the assumption of a fulfillment far in the future (relative to the first century). The first question therefore is "why should we begin with the assumption of a far future fulfillment?"

I have not found a satisfactory answer for that yet. I read a bunch of Sir Robert Anderson's book "The Coming Prince" yesterday, and all he did was assume and assert a far future fulfillment without giving hardly any supporting evidence. Its so absurd I'm gonna write a review of it. He said that the evidence for the "gap" in Daniel's seventy weeks is that its not mentioned in the text! :eek: Does anyone know who started that "gap" theory?

Richard
Could it be Darby? Scoffield? I've read that chapter so many times and I'm still clueless to how to interpret it.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Could it be Darby? Scoffield? I've read that chapter so many times and I'm still clueless to how to interpret it.
I know Scoffield taught it, and I would guess Darby, but I don't know.

As for the interpretation of Daniel 9 - I feel very clueful. It seems obvious it was all fulfilled in the first advent of Christ and the subsequent destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

[gilgal]

Agreed - there could be double fulfillments. But we gotta get our feet on the ground of established and confirmed fulfillments before we will be able to understand future possibilities.

This is what happened to me. After studying diligenty to get a "birds eye view" of the Bible so I could complete the Bible Wheel book, I found that I also saw that the whole focus of the whole Bible was on the first century coming of Jesus Christ - His birth, life, death, resurrection, judgment on Jerusalem and establishment of His Kingdom that will never end. The historical fact of the fulfillment had burst the futuristic bubble. It just doesn't make any sense to try to replay the first century.


I would wonder ...the dragon which sought to devour the child in Revelation 12 but wasn't able to... isn't that referring to Matthew 2 when Herod wanted to slay the Messiah but failed?

[gilgal]

I know Scoffield taught it, and I would guess Darby, but I don't know.

As for the interpretation of Daniel 9 - I feel very clueful. It seems obvious it was all fulfilled in the first advent of Christ and the subsequent destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Every time I went through such passages I would try to read through Jack Van Impe's eyes or anyone else. I then decided to discard them and try not to read them for a period of time.

The danger of these teachers is becoming worse and worse. Look at John Hagee! I've admired his teachings ( he taught on the Tabernacle in the wilderness ). By supporting rebellious Israel doesn't that make these teachers rebellious against the righteous God?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Every time I went through such passages I would try to read through Jack Van Impe's eyes or anyone else. I then decided to discard them and try not to read them for a period of time.
It can be wise to set things down for a while so you can come back later with a fresh view. Especially if you've been watching JVI!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I would wonder ...the dragon which sought to devour the child in Revelation 12 but wasn't able to... isn't that referring to Matthew 2 when Herod wanted to slay the Messiah but failed?
Excellent observation.

[gilgal]

Excellent observation.

So the dragon used a human figure...Herod to fulfill his task right? He had 7 heads and ten horns and the crowns were on top of the heads or the horns?

There was the other Herod that was struck down by an angel in Acts 12 just like I guess Revelation 12 by Michael to the dragon.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

So the dragon used a human figure...Herod to fulfill his task right? He had 7 heads and ten horns and the crowns were on top of the heads or the horns?

Both the Dragon and the Beast are represented with 7 heads and 10 horns. The difference is:

The Dragon had 7 crowns on 7 heads
The Beast had 10 crowns on 10 horns.

So there is a single change in description. The crowns were shifted from the heads to the horns. I don't know exactly what this means, but it seems like it has something to do with Satan giving power to the ten horns which represent individual rulers in Rome.


There was the other Herod that was struck down by an angel in Acts 12 just like I guess Revelation 12 by Michael to the dragon.
Interesting correlation. The big link I have noticed is the casting out of Satan in Matt 12 and Rev 12 and the connection with the 12th letter Lamed (ox goad).

[TheForgiven]

Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
I think it would be worth studying the political system of Rome.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum had written in The Footsteps of the Messiah ( then again he emphasizes the rapture but made some points worth digging into ).

He mentioned that Rome went through 6 stages of politics ( ...five are fallen, one is and one is to come... Revelation 17 ).

For example:

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teachi...0204.htm#93165

That is an interesting view of Rome. I've never seen it before. Hey Joe, what do you think of it?

I'd have to read the article before making a determination, but I don't believe the seven heads were political systems or governments. John is clearly told that they are seven kings, of which five had fallen.

Now if we consider the duality of the image (seven hills / seven heads) then it's very possible that the mountains, or hills, represented the political system. However, the angel makes no mention of the seven hills falling, but only the heads.

He's told:

Revelation 17:
9 'Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

The question is, was it seven heads that fell, considering the heads themselves have a dual picture? Hmmmm? That is very interesting and I never thought about that. I've always concentrated on the Kings, and not the hills. "Hills" biblically speaking are symbols of governments or ruling agencies. And each agency has a King which rules over that agency.

Wow, this is very fascinating! I'm going to look into this a lot more. Thanks gigal.

For now, I tend to concentrate more on the kings, and not the hills.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

The danger of these teachers is becoming worse and worse. Look at John Hagee! I've admired his teachings ( he taught on the Tabernacle in the wilderness ). By supporting rebellious Israel doesn't that make these teachers rebellious against the righteous God?

I almost missed this question from gigal. My personal answer is, YES. He's teaching Christ, but he's also teaching salvation by the Torah and not Christ. I read a radio post on an old website of his, from his church in San. Tx., and he actually believes that Jews can be saved by the Torah, even if they presently reject Christ. His eschatology stems from a very skewed error regarding the Kingdom of Christ. He accuses us as teachers of the "Replacement" theology, and that there is no replacement theology, in his view. The Church is the Kingdom of Christ as it presently exists, but only the Jews are his chosen people, whom he believes will receive the Kingdom again in the future, and rule the world from there. THAT is biblically false, as Christ testifies to the lady at the well:

[B]"Woman! A time is coming, and now is, when you will neither travel to Jerusalem or this mountain to worship the Messiah; God is Spirit and He seeks for those who worship Him in spirit and in truth...."


Thus what he teaches is not truth, but lies. And liars, scripturally, are destined for the fires.

Now historically speaking, they are his chosen people; chosen to bring forth the "seed" or "Sperm" leading to the birth of Christ. That is why it was so important for them to keep the blood lines together, until Christ was born. Afterwards, when He's born, crucified, and resurrected, the Church is built on that foundation and hence forth, the blood lines are no longer important. Subsequently, the Kingdom was established by the 12 Tribes as indicated by the book of Revelation. I've sometimes speculated if each of the 12 Apostles, to include Paul, represented each Tribe, but that is just speculation.

John Hagaee is very supportive of the current Jewish state and has convinced the Bush administration the importance of warring with Arabic nations who wish to destroy geographical Israel. His largest problem is he still thinks in a racists way, as if God cares about race. If God did care about race, then the United States wouldn't have to defend geographical Israel; He'd fight their battles for them, just as He did in the days of Joshua, David, and Solomon. But it was Him who permitted the destruction of the false Jews and the false, who claimed they were Jews, but spiritually were not. And Jews today are not biblical Jews either (old testament or new) for they bare the name Jew by geographical birth, but their Tribe blood as been long severed and lost, having mingled with the nations for more than 2000 years. So today, the only way to be born a Jew is through the blood-line of Jesus Christ.

Conclusively, the ONLY blood that counts is what was shed on the cross, for all of mankind, no matter what ethnic background we come from. And once you've been washed by the blood, your blood type changes (figuratively now) to that of Jesus. For it's not your blood which is important, but the blood of Christ Jesus, who died and saved us of our sins....the Torah has nothing to do with salvation, and John needs to repent of his false teachings. However, the Torah does contain much of the Old testament, which testifies of Jesus as the Messiah. But the Messiah the present day Jews await is not the Messiah we know and love.

Joe

[gilgal]

I'd have to read the article before making a determination, but I don't believe the seven heads were political systems or governments. John is clearly told that they are seven kings, of which five had fallen.

Now if we consider the duality of the image (seven hills / seven heads) then it's very possible that the mountains, or hills, represented the political system. However, the angel makes no mention of the seven hills falling, but only the heads.

He's told:

Revelation 17:
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

The question is, was it seven heads that fell, considering the heads themselves have a dual picture? Hmmmm? That is very interesting and I never thought about that. I've always concentrated on the Kings, and not the hills. "Hills" biblically speaking are symbols of governments or ruling agencies. And each agency has a King which rules over that agency.

Wow, this is very fascinating! I'm going to look into this a lot more. Thanks gigal.

For now, I tend to concentrate more on the kings, and not the hills.

Joe

What I wanted to dig into was the period when Rome had an Oligarchy of ten.

Fruchtenbaum offers a unique interpretation of the seven heads as types of Roman Government: the Tarquin Kings (753-510 B.C.); the Counsulors (510-494 B.C.); the Plebians or Dictators (494-390 B.C.); the Republicans or Decimverse (Oligarchy of Ten, 390-59 B.C.); the Triumvirate (59-27 B.C.); imperialism (27 B.C. - present); absolute imperialism (the Antichrist). [Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, The Footsteps of Messiah, rev ed. (Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries, 2003), 42] Scott offers a related view, “The seven heads on the Beast represent seven successive forms of government from the rise of the fourth universal empire on through its history till its end. ‘Five have fallen.’ These are Kings, Consuls, Dictators, Decemvirs, and Military Tribunes. ‘One is.’ This is the sixth, or imperial form of government set up by Julius Caesar, and under which John was banished to Patmos under Domitian.”—Walter Scott, Exposition of The Revelation (London, England: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), Rev. 17:9-13. Neither view provides a head for the beast which the Harlot sits upon if she is a mother of harlots that predates the early Rome.

I think Decimverse has been misspelled because I find no results.

[gilgal]

I found this definition in:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-oligarchy.htm

Oligarchy is a form of government where most political power effectively rests with a small segment of society (typically the most powerful, whether by wealth, military strength, ruthlessness, or political influence). The word oligarchy is from the Greek for "few" and "rule". Some political theorists have argued that all societies are inevitably oligarchies no matter the supposed political system.

Oligarchies are often controlled by a few powerful families whose children are raised and mentored to become inheritors of the power of the oligarchy, often at some sort of expense to those governed. In contrast to aristocracy ("government by the 'best'"), this power may not always be exercised openly, the oligarchs preferring to remain "the power behind the throne", exerting control through economic means. Unlike plutocracy, oligarchy is not always a rule by wealth, as oligarchs can simply be a privileged cadre. It has also been suggested that most communist states fit the definition of oligarchy.

A society may become an oligarchy by default as an outgrowth of the shifting alliances of warring tribal chieftans, although any form of government may transform into an oligarchy at some point in its evolution. The most likely mechanism for this transformation is a gradual accumulation of otherwise unchecked economic power. Oligarchies may also evolve into more classically authoritarian forms of government, sometimes as the result of one family gaining ascendancy over the others. Many of the European monarchies established during the late Middle Ages began in this way.

Oligarchies may also become instruments of transformation, insisting that monarchs or dictators share power, thereby opening the door to power-sharing by other elements of society. One example of this process occurred when English nobles banded together in 1215 to force a reluctant King John of England to sign the Magna Carta, a tacit recognition both of King John's waning political power and of the existence of an incipient oligarchy. As English society continued to grow and develop, the Magna Carta was repeatedly revised (1216,1217, and 1225), guaranteeing greater rights to greater numbers of people, thus setting the stage for British constitutional monarchy.

A modern example of oligarchy could be seen in South Africa during the 20th century. Here, the basic characteristics of oligarchy are particularly easy to observe, since the South African form of oligarchy was based on racism. After the Boer War, a tacit agreement was reached between English- and Afrikaans-speaking whites. Together, they made up about twenty percent of the population, but this small percentage had access to virtually all the educational and trade opportunities, and they proceeded to deny this to the black majority even further than before. Although this process had been going on since the mid-18th century, after 1948 it became official government policy and became known worldwide as apartheid. This lasted until the arrival of democracy in South Africa in 1994, punctuated by the transition to a democratically-elected government dominated by the black majority.

[TheForgiven]

Hello gigal,

I found your articles interesting, but I must come to my conclusion.

The seven heads represented seven Kings, of which five had fallen and one currently was. There's not much context to permit a dual falling, both hills and kings. I think the purpose of the seven hills was to identify the kingdom at topic; in this case, the first century Roman Empire.

Then five heads were fallen, and one "IS" [or was from John's perspective].

Now if we're to believe that Revelation was written in the 90's, the one "Who is" was Domitian. If we were to believe Revelation was written in the 60's, the one "who is" was probably Vespasian, the 6th Roman Emperor. The 7th reigns but a short time, probably Titus who succeeded in destroying Jerusalem while his father Vespasian was king, and would become Emperor shortly afterwards. But as the Angel tells John, "He reigns but a short while...." indicating his reign is quickly ended. Titus only reigned 2 1/2 years.

Then comes the one who figuratively "once was" now is not, "But will come" It he who is an 8th king, but figuratively counted among the seven. He's a repeat of the wounded king, who's neck suffered a blow. This was no doubt Nero Caesar. Domitian repeats all that Nero Caesar did, but on an Empire Wide basis.

Joe

[gilgal]

Then comes the one who figuratively "once was" now is not, "But will come" It he who is an 8th king, but figuratively counted among the seven. He's a repeat of the wounded king, who's neck suffered a blow. This was no doubt Nero Caesar. Domitian repeats all that Nero Caesar did, but on an Empire Wide basis.
Joe

Ok so I don't know much of these ceasars lives. How did Domitian repeat Nero? How does that coincide with Revelation? Where is the false prophet?

Richard wrote articles on the subject of the Bible books in number coinciding with the post-Christian era. Many things he discussed have seen fulfillments according to their numbers, each book for a century. Book 1 with the 1st century, book 2 with the 2nd...So that alone shows that prophecy is timeless. The words of Jesus will never pass away till all be fulfilled ( as he said it. )

[TheForgiven]

Ok so I don't know much of these ceasars lives. How did Domitian repeat Nero? How does that coincide with Revelation? Where is the false prophet?

Richard wrote articles on the subject of the Bible books in number coinciding with the post-Christian era. Many things he discussed have seen fulfillments according to their numbers, each book for a century. Book 1 with the 1st century, book 2 with the 2nd...So that alone shows that prophecy is timeless. The words of Jesus will never pass away till all be fulfilled ( as he said it. )

Domitian was the second to start a Christian persecution. Ironically, it was he and his brother Titus, while they were both heirs to the throne due to their father, Emperor Vespasian, who were the victors in destroying Jerusalem. The message John was given was to show that a beast would arise and do everything the first beast did.


Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

and again,


Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Conclusion is Christ is the end of the Law to all who believe, and heaven and earth would not pass away until all was fulfilled. Seeing the law no longer exists, then heaven and earth must have passed away....according to scripture.

Think about it friends.

Joe

[gilgal]

Domitian was the second to start a Christian persecution. Ironically, it was he and his brother Titus, while they were both heirs to the throne due to their father, Emperor Vespasian, who were the victors in destroying Jerusalem. The message John was given was to show that a beast would arise and do everything the first beast did.



and again,



Conclusion is Christ is the end of the Law to all who believe, and heaven and earth would not pass away until all was fulfilled. Seeing the law no longer exists, then heaven and earth must have passed away....according to scripture.

Think about it friends.

Joe
What does it mean "The end of the law"?

[kathryn]

I'm glad you asked that Gilgal. I hope to hear everyone's take on this.

[TheForgiven]

What does it mean "The end of the law"?

It means that the Law for justification or righteousness ended with the crucifixion of Christ. And we, through Christ, uphold or fulfill the requirements of the Law through the Holy Spirit of Jesus.

The Law was sort of like a prison. Because all sinned, no justification was possible. Therefore, like prisoners, they labored under the sun, following all sorts of rituals, requirements, animal sacrificing, fasting, and other sacraments required under the Law. These were commanded until the Holy One, and the Only One, capable of fulfilling the law, which is Jesus, would be the one who gives birth to righteousness, just as Adam gave birth to sin. Therefore, with Christ being the first and only one to fulfill the Law without sinning, He became the true teacher and perfecter of our faith, with us having been justified by His blood and set free from the captivity of the Law's prison.

The former heaven and earth consisted of the Jewish requirements; Israel as earth (Israel of flesh) and the heaven as the former Throne (Judgment). But when the Law was ended through the body of Christ, a new throne appeared, which the author of Hebrews calls "The Throne of Grace". He says:

Hebrews
Let us approach the Throne of Grace in full confidence of faith, having our minds sprinkled clean with a pure conscious, and our bodies washed with the word...

and again...

And where these sins have been forgiven, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...

This means that the sacrifice of all time, Jesus, provides forgiveness for all sin, perpetually, with no more slavery of works in accordance with the Laws requirements. The New Heaven and New Earth is the Throne of Grace (Heaven) and the New Earth (Israel of God). Heaven and Earth passed away, but the words of Jesus abide forever.

Does this mean the Law is no more? Only to those who are saved, for the Law only applies to sinners (Those outside of Christ). But if we sin, there is no condemnation, for where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. However, as Paul clarifies to the Romans, this does not mean to continue in sin because we, as new born creatures, have been set free from the Law so that we may be "BOUND" to another, and that's Jesus.

So the Law was ended, but the New Law (Jesus) teaches us all things through our inner being. This is the righteousness of faith. Faith doesn't ask someone to teach them about righteousness. Faith doesn't depend on someone to explain what right and wrong is. Faith is trusting in Jesus and listening to His voice, which we call the Holy Spirit. It's the Counselor which convicts us of sin, and sin has everything to do with the Law. That's why I said, the Law is for sinners. But as Paul also indicates, we don't serve the Law, but the Spirit; we are not bound by the Law, but the Spirit.

Joe

[gilgal]

What about the beginning of Romans where Paul mentions that the gentiles uncircumcised by nature, if they obey the law are a law unto themselves? Therefore their uncircumcision will be made circumcision?

[kathryn]

Howdy Joe....I think I agree with most of what you are saying...but there are a few rough spots maybe you could clear up for me. You mentioned the two thrones...judgement and grace as though they are opposites. Doesn't the law actually establish grace? There is the law of faith (Rom. 3:27) and by it "we establish the law." (Rom. 3:31.) The Law of Jubilee is the legal foundation of grace.
Also...how would you define the baptism of fire? Thanks Bro...

[gilgal]

A side note for those who follow on the 22 spokes of the biblewheel. The canceling of debts which is the cause of our rejoicing is mentioned is in Philippians the 50th book.

Could that be why rejoice is mentioned so often in that book?

[kathryn]

how cool is that!:thumb:

[gilgal]

The first jubilee was in the book of Joshua the 6th book.

[TheForgiven]

Howdy Joe....I think I agree with most of what you are saying...but there are a few rough spots maybe you could clear up for me. You mentioned the two thrones...judgement and grace as though they are opposites. Doesn't the law actually establish grace? There is the law of faith (Rom. 3:27) and by it "we establish the law." (Rom. 3:31.) The Law of Jubilee is the legal foundation of grace.
Also...how would you define the baptism of fire? Thanks Bro...

The Law is kind of like a curse, that those who violate the law and it's requirements are held in custody of its keeping. But those under grace have been set free from its captivity. Christ fulfilled the Law so that we, through Him and His instruction, learn to abides by the truth of the Law. And the Law is summed up in a single word, and that's love....to love everyone as you would yourself. Sin has to do with the Law, for the Law was established because of sin. But righteousness is apart from the Law and those who are in Christ Jesus are not held in its bound. However, those who choose to sin will be judge by the Law of Jesus Christ...that is an entirely different subject.

The purpose of Jesus was to thwart the works of the devil, to set everyone free who will accept it, so that they serve in a new way of life. Grace was not as simple in the Old Testament as it is now. For when they sinned, while held under custody of the Law, they were required to provide offerings for sin, which in truth could not take away the penalty of sin. That is why the priest had to offer sacrifices every single year, even for the sin previously committed.

But Jesus ended the Law with the sacrifice of Himself, in order that we, who have become children of God, might live for Him and not for ourselves. And those who live with Christ must obey Him and His commands because He set us free from death.

Joe

[kathryn]

Hey Joe...I agree with everything you have said. I still have a little problem with the word "ended" however. Indeed, He ended the external ordinances against us, by fulfilling them Himself, but He then moved it inward, to begin writing it on our hearts. (which is the sanctification process, or the baptism of fire) It wasn't "ended" but it did change form. (and I believe you did make reference to this before, but it was a little fuzzy. Don't take that personally. It's probably me:D) I hope you don't mind me including part of a chapter from one of Stephen Jone's books on the subject. It clarified alot for me, in understanding the sanctification process, which takes place from within, as it(the law) is taken from the external to the internal and written on our hearts:
"Only the righteous can live in the divine presence and partake of the divine nature. This is well illustrated in the story of Daniel's 3 friends, who were cast into the fiery furnace. The fire could not harm them, because the judgement of the law had no jurisdiction over the righteous. Their character was in harmony with the divine fire, and so the earthly fire had no power over them.
When Israel stood at the base of the mount, they had been justified by the blood of the lamb seven weeks earlier at Passover (when they came out of Egypt) Yet this did not mean they were ready for the next level of experience with the Holy Spirit of God at the foot of Horeb. This meeting with God was thereafter celebrated as the feast of Pentecost. Although they had been justified by faith, they were unable to experience Pentecost, because they were afraid to hear the voice of God. For this reason, the fulfillment of Pentecost was postponed for nearly 1,500 years, where we read the story in the second chapter of Acts.
The point is that "the church in the wilderness" under Moses (Acts 7:38) typified Christians who, though justified by faith, are unwilling to move up to the second level of experience with God. Pentecost is an encounter with the divine fire, for it is a baptism of fire, designed to purify the people by destroying the flesh. It is not meant to destroy the person, but to free people from the bondage of their fleshly desires. This fire burns flesh and kills us. But we should not shrink from such a death, but embrace it, knowing that God is Love, and He is preparing us for a deeper relationship with Him.
The prophet Jeremiah wrote in 23:29
"Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and a hammer which shatters a rock?" The Word of God, or particularily His law, is like a fire because it reveals the very character and nature of its Author. The purpose of the law is to define sin ( 1 John 3:4) Otherwise, as Paul said, we would not have known coveting is sin, except the law told us, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7.7)
When we hear the Word of God coming out of the midst of the fire, we are only afraid because it unmasks the sin within our hearts which we have so desperately tried to hide all our lives. All our defense mechanisms, self-justification, our rationalizations, our projection of guilt upon others, our blindness and refusal to see our own hearts as God sees them...all the secrets of the heart are made manifest by His word when we hear it speaking to us out of the midst of the fire.
Yes, this can be fearsome. The Ten Commandments give the general law principle, and the statutes define specifically how the principle is to be applied correctly. The judgements of the law are the penalties for each transgression. They are designed to restore the lawful order through restitution wherever possible, and to restore the sinner as well.
When we become Christians, we come before the bar of God's justice as repentant sinners. We claim the death of Jesus as payment for all our sins...past, present and future. From that moment on, we form a new and different relationship with the law. In time past we were afraid of its judgment; now we voluntarily submit ourselves to its judgement and teaching, that we may learn what sin is and how to refrain from sinning. As Isaiah said, we begin to learn righteousness.
Paul said that "by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom 3:20) How could we be expected to know what sin is and do something about it, if we have no knowledge of what sin is? And how could we know what sin is except the law?
So this new relationship with the law is known to us as learning obedience, or sanctification. It comes AFTER and BECAUSE OF justification. We submit ourselves to the fiery law, and Jesus leads us through the fire of circumstances, a baptism of fire, and God begins to refine us as gold. As we draw near to Him, He speaks to us out of the midst of the fire even as He spoke to Israel of old.
This is as fearsome to our flesh today as it was to Israel at Sinai. The fire activates our inner fears that always accompany the sin in our hearts. Men today still run from the fiery law that God spoke to men out of the midst of the fire. They are still afraid of it, and out of this fear came the antinomian doctrine ("anti-law")
These are those who justify their sin by saying, "We are no longer under the law, but under grace." What they really mean is, "We will uphold the laws that we agree with, such as those that define murder, theft, and adultery as sin; but anyone who brings up a law we disagree with or do not want to comply with...well, we are not under the law but under grace.'
Most people misunderstand Paul's statement in Romans 6:14 where he says, "you are not under law, but under grace" In the Bible, when a man was convicted of sin by the law of God, he was "under the law" until such time as the debt was paid. For instance, if convicted of stealing $1000 , the law would tell him to pay his victim double restitution, or $2000. If he could not pay the debt, he had to work off the debt until it was paid. The time it took to work off the debt was the time the man was "under the law". Once the debt was paid, he was "under grace", because his sin no longer had dominion over him. He was forgiven.
Paul was telling us that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for our sin. Hence we are not under law , but under grace. Our sin no longer has dominion over us. But does this mean we may now continue to sin? Of course not. Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4) The law tells us what sin is. The law was never meant to justify sinners, nor could it. However, the solution is not to put away the law, thereby legalizing sin. The solution is to apply Jesus' blood to our sins, believing that He has paid the full penalty for all our sin. This puts us "under grace" so that we are free to be servants of God in obedience to His law. We were justified in order to begin learning obedience to the will of God. The foundational revelation of God's will came through Moses in the divine law.
There are certain parts of the law, particularily the blood sacrifices and rituals relating to the physical temple and Levitical priesthood that have been altered in the New Testament. The principles remain the same, but they have been given a new form in the Age of Pentecost. Yet even these were not really put away; only their outward form changed. We still have a blood sacrifice; Jesus was the true Lamb of God. We still have a temple, we are the temple of God. We still have a priesthood; It is the Melchisedec priesthood. We still have a high priest; He is alive forever.
But let us not think that the moral laws have been put away, lest we become lawless. Theft, murder, and adultery are still sins. Unfortunately, many Christians seldom study the law of God, because they have been told that it was put away. For this reason few understand the judgements of the wicked at the Great White Throne. Without an understanding of the judgements of the law, we will not be able to know the nature of the lake of fire, which is the judgement of the sinners. God will judge the world by His fiery law, for that is how all sin is judged. A study of the law itself will show us the true purpose of judgement. Isaiah 26:9 says:
"For when the earth experience Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness."
One thing I would like to mention again, is that the Church of the first century came forth at Pentecost, which was a leavened feast. It was leavened because the sanctification process had just begun. There is yet a Tabernacles fulfillment for the Church, I believe.

[kathryn]

Just wanted to clarify...."flesh" in the above post, is the carnal nature.

[TheForgiven]

Hey Joe...I agree with everything you have said. I still have a little problem with the word "ended" however. Indeed, He ended the external ordinances against us, by fulfilling them Himself, but He then moved it inward, to begin writing it on our hearts. (which is the sanctification process, or the baptism of fire) It wasn't "ended" but it did change form. (and I believe you did make reference to this before, but it was a little fuzzy. Don't take that personally. It's probably me) I hope you don't mind me including part of a chapter from one of Stephen Jone's books on the subject. It clarified alot for me, in understanding the sanctification process, which takes place from within, as it(the law) is taken from the external to the internal and written on our hearts:

I'd say you are correct about Sanctification. This is defined as the process by which a person is being conformed to the image of Christ. Now some define this as automatic sanctification without external evidences for this. In short, some view a person is holy simply because his faith makes him believe he is holy, even though his works would say otherwise.

The Law for righteousness ended, and Christ ended the Law and its requirements to the cross. But instead of us serving the Law in itself, we uphold the law through Christ in our inner being, who teaches us about the true meaning behind the law.

The Law had to do with death and punishment, but those who are being sanctified by the working of Christ, have no reason to fear the law.... Those apart from the Law (Jews of the first century) who violate the law, as the scripture says, their circumcision has become un-circumcision. [Note: Paul applies this to the Jews not Christians]. But in Christ Jesus, circumcision must be permanent, unless we want to discuss the doctrine of eternal security. But I hate that debate, and it's not worth getting in to. :(

At any rate, the old law ended with the body of Christ, and we serve the Law of Christ.

Thanks for the article.

Joe

[Abigail]

Both the Dragon and the Beast are represented with 7 heads and 10 horns. The difference is:

The Dragon had 7 crowns on 7 heads
The Beast had 10 crowns on 10 horns.

So there is a single change in description. The crowns were shifted from the heads to the horns. I don't know exactly what this means, but it seems like it has something to do with Satan giving power to the ten horns which represent individual rulers in Rome.

Interesting correlation. The big link I have noticed is the casting out of Satan in Matt 12 and Rev 12 and the connection with the 12th letter Lamed (ox goad).

Why cannot the fourth beast be interpreted as physical Israel who had the Law. To me in this way Israel would fulfil the role of being 'dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong' because it had the Law which no man could possibly fulfill except Christ who was sinless. The little horn is Satan and the three horns pulled out by the roots in front of him are when Christ resisted his 3 temptations in the wilderness

[TheForgiven]

Why cannot the fourth beast be interpreted as physical Israel who had the Law. To me in this way Israel would fulfil the role of being 'dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong' because it had the Law which no man could possibly fulfill except Christ who was sinless. The little horn is Satan and the three horns pulled out by the roots in front of him are when Christ resisted his 3 temptations in the wilderness

Because the Beast is shown to have risen from the "sea", and sea biblically points to the nations, and the nations are recognized as "stormy seas". So when John seas a Beast rising out of the sea [of nations], he's stating that a terrible kingdom arises from the Gentiles and it getting ready to make land-fall, which is Israel. Israel is always represented as "dry land" or "earth".

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Why cannot the fourth beast be interpreted as physical Israel who had the Law. To me in this way Israel would fulfil the role of being 'dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong' because it had the Law which no man could possibly fulfill except Christ who was sinless. The little horn is Satan and the three horns pulled out by the roots in front of him are when Christ resisted his 3 temptations in the wilderness
I think there are many reasons it wouldn't work. Rome was a fierce world power that naturally follows in the sequence of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece whereas Israel was dominated by them all, including Rome. And the character of Rome fits much more clearly than Isreal (iron teeth, stomping, etc), and when we compare with Revelation it seems clear that national Israel is the Harlot who is destroyed by the Beast (Rome). And Joe gave another good reason. So it seems pretty conclusive to me that the 4th kingdom is Rome.

Is there a reason you "wanted" Israel to be the fourth kingdom or are you just exploring possiblities?

Richard

[Abigail]

I think there are many reasons it wouldn't work. Rome was a fierce world power that naturally follows in the sequence of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece whereas Israel was dominated by them all, including Rome. And the character of Rome fits much more clearly than Isreal (iron teeth, stomping, etc), and when we compare with Revelation it seems clear that national Israel is the Harlot who is destroyed by the Beast (Rome). And Joe gave another good reason. So it seems pretty conclusive to me that the 4th kingdom is Rome.

Is there a reason you "wanted" Israel to be the fourth kingdom or are you just exploring possiblities?

Richard

I am just exploring possibilities for you to test against the Word, so let me expand, here goes:

If we see the first 3 beasts as oppressing the children of God, then we have a picture of those powerful nations oppressing Israel. The fourth beast is different because it is *supposed * to be God's and indeed has the potential (when being led by God) to be 'dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong' , these words being the words that are used of God when He is dealing with people who attack His own children. However *apostate* Israel, as she had become by the time of Jesus, is like the three previous beasts, oppressing the people of God ie those of Israel who were really Israel ('For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel' - Romans 9:6 ) were being oppressed by the vipers amongst them.

Israel had the law which was good but those who did not know God and did not love their brethren were in effect using it to oppress the weak and afflicted in many ways (ie everyone must sacrifice, so when the poor come from far to the temple and cannot bring with them animals they were virtually being forced to buy from the temple traders at whatever rates the traders wanted. You were at the mercy of the temple traders). Joe makes the objection that the 4th beast cannot possibly be Israel on account of the sea/land origin, however I believe this can be overcome if we see 'sea' as being those who are not the children of God and 'land' as being those who are the children of God ie the real Israel.

[gilgal]

Ok. The first thing that has to be laid out is how to interpret this prophecy. What we have is what's been given to us along with the visions.

The beast which had ten horns:


seven heads

Revelation 12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:3
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


Revelation 17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


ten horns

Daniel 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:20
And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Daniel 7:24
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Revelation 12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:3
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:16
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

[TheForgiven]

I am just exploring possibilities for you to test against the Word, so let me expand, here goes:

If we see the first 3 beasts as oppressing the children of God, then we have a picture of those powerful nations oppressing Israel. The fourth beast is different because it is *supposed * to be God's and indeed has the potential (when being led by God) to be 'dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong' , these words being the words that are used of God when He is dealing with people who attack His own children. However *apostate* Israel, as she had become by the time of Jesus, is like the three previous beasts, oppressing the people of God ie those of Israel who were really Israel ('For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel' - Romans 9:6 ) were being oppressed by the vipers amongst them.

Israel had the law which was good but those who did not know God and did not love their brethren were in effect using it to oppress the weak and afflicted in many ways (ie everyone must sacrifice, so when the poor come from far to the temple and cannot bring with them animals they were virtually being forced to buy from the temple traders at whatever rates the traders wanted. You were at the mercy of the temple traders). Joe makes the objection that the 4th beast cannot possibly be Israel on account of the sea/land origin, however I believe this can be overcome if we see 'sea' as being those who are not the children of God and 'land' as being those who are the children of God ie the real Israel

That's pretty good gigal. I admire your research on this topic. And I also concur with you that basically anyone outside the kingdom of God is considered to be Gentile at heart. But the problems you'll encounter in trying to show the seven heads and 10 horns to be Israel is this is the same as saying that Israel (The Beast with seven heads) will hate the Harlot (Apostate Israel). So Israel destroys itself, and this won't exactly work.

The Harlot is a nation which traded its relationship with God to that of another. And Israel has always been known throughout the Old Testament in doing that. As the prophets usually stated, they lifted up their skirts and revealed their shame in order to attract other lovers. Therefore, Israel is easily and logically identified as the Harlot. The question then is who destroys this Harlot? The same nation who got sick and tired of this woman riding its back all the time, every single time a problem comes about? Historically speaking, this was the Roman Empire, who grew tired of this constantly rebellious people, always complaining about this and that in things pertaining to their own Laws. Rome grew very tedious of their obejctions and complaints, so like a wild donkey, the Harlot (Israel) found herself reared off the donkey in a heart beat, especially when they discovered that Jerusalem would not submit to Emperor Worship. Rome (The Beast from the sea) burned the city with fire and killed more than a million with the sword or wild beasts.

Now I would agree that Jerusalem might represent the Beast of the earth; the Lamb with 2 horns of a Ram. I'd be interested in your research on this one.

Good insights though.

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am just exploring possibilities for you to test against the Word, so let me expand, here goes:

"Exploring possibilities" is a very good exercise that can lead to new insights. One of the most difficult things is to seriously consider an idea that contrary to an established line of thought.


If we see the first 3 beasts as oppressing the children of God, then we have a picture of those powerful nations oppressing Israel. The fourth beast is different because it is *supposed * to be God's and indeed has the potential (when being led by God) to be 'dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong' , these words being the words that are used of God when He is dealing with people who attack His own children. However *apostate* Israel, as she had become by the time of Jesus, is like the three previous beasts, oppressing the people of God ie those of Israel who were really Israel ('For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel' - Romans 9:6 ) were being oppressed by the vipers amongst them.

Yes, apostate Israel was a terrible beast that persecuted Christians. But she does not seem to be "in the line" of the four kingdoms because the whole integrated picture of Dan-Rev-OD fits so tightly with Rome:

4th kingdom in Dan = Beast of Rev = armies surrounding Jerusalem in the OD

All those links get busted if we change the 4th kingdom to Israel, and we are left without any understanding of who is doing what to whom in Rev 17-18. If the beast is apostate Israel, who is the harlot, and who destroys the city?

The key to proper interpretation is the mutual confirmation of many passages from diverse Scriptures. And when that interpretation fits with the overall story of Scripture, and is confirmed by history, it seems we can have a very high degree of confidence in its accuracy.

But it is good to consider all possibilities. Thanks for challenging the "status quo."

Richard

[Abigail]

Yes, apostate Israel was a terrible beast that persecuted Christians. But she does not seem to be "in the line" of the four kingdoms because the whole integrated picture of Dan-Rev-OD fits so tightly with Rome:

4th kingdom in Dan = Beast of Rev = armies surrounding Jerusalem in the OD

All those links get busted if we change the 4th kingdom to Israel, and we are left without any understanding of who is doing what to whom in Rev 17-18. If the beast is apostate Israel, who is the harlot, and who destroys the city?

The key to proper interpretation is the mutual confirmation of many passages from diverse Scriptures. And when that interpretation fits with the overall story of Scripture, and is confirmed by history, it seems we can have a very high degree of confidence in its accuracy.

Yes, I agree with you that without a discernable line right through we will end up with confusion and that is not my intent, that is why it is good for you guys to highlight the incomaptabilities.

If we take Christ's crucifixion as a pattern for the destruction of the temple (AD70), then cannot Daniel 7 be understood as scanning the crucifixion and vindication of Christ. Israel was apostate, yet in their midst Christ was righteous. At Christ's crucifixion Israel were guilty and destroyed from being God's special nation (via physical descent) (Daniel 7:11), but Christ is given glory and a throne and dominion everlasting.

If you read Psalm 22 (about the crucifixion) the imagery there is exactly like what would have taken place when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed Psalm 22:12 'Many Bulls have surrounded me ; strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones, they look at me and stare ...a picture of the burnt out structure of a building maybe.

Of course Rome was instrumental in the crucifixion of Christ but complied very much with the wishes of the Jews who wanted to be rid of Him.

So Revelation comes from Daniel 7 in that it is about destruction of the temple and about the Jewish nation being turned out of the city of God (Jerusalem), however they differ in perspective in that Daniel 7 is from the point of view that it tells who the oppressors of God's people are and of the vindication of God's own in a spiritual sense (physical for Christ) , whereas Revelation is about the judgement on the oppressors in a physical sense.

I am interested in how you interpret Dan 7:11 if you view the 4th beast as being Rome alone.

[kathryn]

I believe you are all correct in this. If you apply the 3 stages of growth /principle to the Kingdom of God...Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles...you can see the developement of both "systems", of the Kingdom of God, and of the Beast , until the final expression of both, spreads over the globe. There was both a "roman" and "apostate" Israel application to the beast, in the fulfillment of the 1st century...but that was not the final fulfillment. It was the legal /Pentecostal stage/ fulfillilment.(and certainly the central point of the three....and the point at which the legal fulfillment made if possible for the final unveiling of the two "systems", to take place)
The Kingdom of God has been growing and spreading since that time, as well as the "beast" system...into a worldwide one. We now have the Roman Papacy siding with Hagar the bondwoman and her son, as well as much of evangelical Christianity. (playing the role of Judas) The beast system, is a religious, political and financial system that now covers the globe.
The citizens of the Kingdom of God are still operating under the "earnest or downpayment " of the Holy Spirit as they were at the 1st century fulfillment. The fulness of the Spirit....has yet to come, where Christ is unveiled fully in His people/temple. And the same holds for the beast. Satan has yet to enter fully into the beast. No one yet has explained how it is possible, for a complete fulfillment to take place, the full unveiling of Christ in His people, when the "earnest" of the Spirit has yet to be replaced with the FULLNESS of the Spirit, in the citizens of the Kingdom.
Each progressive fulfillment in the causal realm has had, and will have, a corresponding physical outworking on earth. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, I don't believe, was the final one spoken of by Jeremiah. It was not broken as a vessel that cannot be repaired. ( like Sodom) It was re-built. The Levitical priesthood was done away with, the sacrificial system abolished, but Hagar and her son are still in place, and now supported by millions of christians world-wide.
Yes, Christ fulfilled all things at the Cross. But we must distinquish between what was utterly fulfilled and what was legally fulfilled. There is a vast difference. Christ is now working in and through us, to complete the final chapter in history.

[TheForgiven]

I believe you are all correct in this. If you apply the 3 stages of growth /principle to the Kingdom of God...Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles...you can see the developement of both "systems", of the Kingdom of God, and of the Beast , until the final expression of both, spreads over the globe. There was both a "roman" and "apostate" Israel application to the beast, in the fulfillment of the 1st century...but that was not the final fulfillment. It was the legal /Pentecostal stage/ fulfillilment.(and certainly the central point of the three....and the point at which the legal fulfillment made if possible for the final unveiling of the two "systems", to take place)
The Kingdom of God has been growing and spreading since that time, as well as the "beast" system...into a worldwide one. We now have the Roman Papacy siding with Hagar the bondwoman and her son, as well as much of evangelical Christianity. (playing the role of Judas) The beast system, is a religious, political and financial system that now covers the globe.
The citizens of the Kingdom of God are still operating under the "earnest or downpayment " of the Holy Spirit as they were at the 1st century fulfillment. The fulness of the Spirit....has yet to come, where Christ is unveiled fully in His people/temple. And the same holds for the beast. Satan has yet to enter fully into the beast. No one yet has explained how it is possible, for a complete fulfillment to take place, the full unveiling of Christ in His people, when the "earnest" of the Spirit has yet to be replaced with the FULLNESS of the Spirit, in the citizens of the Kingdom.
Each progressive fulfillment in the causal realm has had, and will have, a corresponding physical outworking on earth. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, I don't believe, was the final one spoken of by Jeremiah. It was not broken as a vessel that cannot be repaired. ( like Sodom) It was re-built. The Levitical priesthood was done away with, the sacrificial system abolished, but Hagar and her son are still in place, and now supported by millions of christians world-wide.
Yes, Christ fulfilled all things at the Cross. But we must distinquish between what was utterly fulfilled and what was legally fulfilled. There is a vast difference. Christ is now working in and through us, to complete the final chapter in history.

I've never considered the RCC to be involved with any prophesy. I do see them as a strayed Church, and it is quite possible, but I just don't see it. There might be a connection with the Historicist view of the RCC, that they are both Babylon and the Beast. But I've always rejected that notion.

What I do agree with you is the children of Hagar, the slave woman who bore a child names Ishmael, who corresponds to Arabia; the children of slavery. And it's they who are still enslaved into a false religion of death, works, and sexual fantasies (24 virgins awarded in heaven for Martyrdom). Perhaps it is they who are fulfilling the final chapters of Revelation.

Then again, Full Preterism could be correct, that all of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century. I, on the other hand, believe that most of Revelation was completed, but we are awaiting the completion of the millennium's.

Joe

[kathryn]

Hey Joe! I don't know how much you've studied out Papal Rome, but I think it could quite possibly be considered a successor to the Roman Empire, in biblical prophesy. They wielded tremendous political clout (and still do) down through the centuries.
As for Hagar...I meant Old Jerusalem and the "spiritual Ishmaelites"...the Jews still adhering to Judaism...as opposed to the New Jerusalem, Sarah. But I think you certainly have a point with the Arab connection.
The beast, I believe, is really the spirit behind the system, which is the counterfeit system of the Kingdom of God. Judas was a "guide" who led the roman soldiers to Jesus, to deliver Him into the hands of the Chief priest. The "Judas" spirit leads people into the deceptive spirit of betrayal. He is, in that respect...a counterfeit type of the Holy Spirit

[TheForgiven]

Hey Joe! I don't know how much you've studied out Papal Rome, but I think it could quite possibly be considered a successor to the Roman Empire, in biblical prophesy. They wielded tremendous political clout (and still do) down through the centuries.As for Hagar...I meant Old Jerusalem and the "spiritual Ishmaelite"...the Jews still adhering to Judaism...as opposed to the New Jerusalem, Sarah. But I think you certainly have a point with the Arab connection.
The beast, I believe, is really the spirit behind the system, which is the counterfeit system of the Kingdom of God. Judas was a "guide" who led the roman soldiers to Jesus, to deliver Him into the hands of the Chief priest. The "Judas" spirit leads people into the deceptive spirit of betrayal. He is, in that respect...a counterfeit type of the Holy Spirit

I know there is a lot of rejection of the Papal system. At the same time, Paul tells the Church to honor those who have charge (as keepers) over the sheep and not to dishonor them. Having said that, this does not mean that I support the Papal system any more than the Greek Orthodox Church does [they don't]. But lets keep in mind that its easy to point the finger at them. However, are Protestants any different? Look at John Hagaee and others like him. Look at how much influence they've had over the war, and how the United States forces itself to side with geographical Israel. Why should we defend a nation filled with Terrorism? It's not just Arabs that are blowing things up, but jewish radicals (lower case "j") are doing the same thing. Even though I reject the Roman Papal system, I also reject the Protestant's abuse of its position to side with any war. If Christ wanted His kingdom to fight wars, he would have assigned us weapons of murder. But He doesn't; he assigns us weapons of faith, hope and love. But many Protestant leaders have trashed their reputation as men of God, faith, peace, and love. The Haganites (my own word) have traded their relationship of faith into a relationship of prophesy and war. This makes them just as bad as the first century Jews who wanted to war against the Roman authorities.

Now about the Arabs, Hagar had a son named Ishmael, and Ishmael is the father of Arabs; Isaac the father of the Israelite's. But Abraham was the father of us all, who became the father of faith. Saudi Arabia and geographical Israel are both spiritually linked with that of the Law and slavery. I believe the armies we're seeing surrounding the Church are their children, and it is they, IMHO, who are fulfilling Revelation 20:9


9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

And what is the city He loves? Israel of flesh or of Him? Not of the flesh but of Him:


Hebrews 12:22
22But ye have come unto Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

It's my opinion that Revelation chapter 20 has to do with our day, or the future. Or, as I indicated, Full Preterist are correct in spiritualizing the 1000 years as a single day instead of thousands, and this was fulfilled in 70AD.

Joe

[Abigail]

It's my opinion that Revelation chapter 20 has to do with our day, or the future. Or, as I indicated, Full Preterist are correct in spiritualizing the 1000 years as a single day instead of thousands, and this was fulfilled in 70AD.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I agree with you on Revelation 20.