Is Polygamy wrong? [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

CWH

07-28-2012, 07:14 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

07-28-2012, 09:41 PM

HI all,
I would to discuss about polygamy. It is curious that most men dream about polygamy but most women will jump in violent protest...hmmm....especially Rose :winking0071::D. In Muslim countries, it is an acceptable norm with no violent protests from women. I would like to focus on the following issues:

1. If polygamy is wrong, why did God allowed it and why do Muslims and some cultures still practice it?
2. If polygamy is allowed by God and Muslims and some other culture, why not polyandry?
3. Do polygamy and polyandry have advantages over single marriage?
4. Is polygamy and polyandry immoral?
5. What is the difference between polygamy and polyandry compare to multiple divorces and remarriages, mistresses, concubines, multiple sex partners, adulteries, prostituition, wife/husband-swapping, one-night stand?
6. Why did modern and Western societies reject polygamy and embrace single marriage?
7. Is single marriage entirely good?
8. Is multiple marriages good?
9. What do you all think about same-sex marriage?

What God has joined together, let no man put asunder..:pray:

Interesting topic.

From a biblical perspective, there is on problem with polygamy at all. We know this for many reasons. First, God himself gave David multiple wives, so it can't be wrong. And throughout the OT men who were under the direction of God had many wives and God never said a word against it (except once when warning that kings should not multiply too many wives). So that question is settled.

Now on to your points:

1. If polygamy is wrong, why did God allowed it and why do Muslims and some cultures still practice it?
It's not wrong according to the Bible. But even if it were, it would have nothing to do with the Muslim or Mormon practice of it because there is no reason to think that everything taught in Islam or Mormonism is true or good.

2. If polygamy is allowed by God and Muslims and some other culture, why not polyandry?
Because the religions were made up by men who were very sexist.

3. Do polygamy and polyandry have advantages over single marriage?
In some cases yes. For example, if there is an imbalance between the number of men and women. Too many women? Polygamy. Too many men? Polyandry. It's not a matter of morals at all.

4. Is polygamy and polyandry immoral?
Polygamy is obviously not immoral from a biblical perspective. But the Bible is silent about polyandry.

5. What is the difference between polygamy and polyandry compare to multiple divorces and remarriages, mistresses, concubines, multiple sex partners, adulteries, prostituition, wife/husband-swapping, one-night stand?
There are many differences. Marriage involves promises, so if you break promises with mistresses or adulteries, then that is immoral. But if your wife agrees and you are not deceiving the mistress then it is not immoral.

Things like prostitution and one-night stands are not moral issues so much as foolishness and risky because of health, pregnancy, and so forth. And they are usually foolish from a psychological/spiritual point of view too.

Spouse swapping is also probably foolish, but it's the decision of those who want to do it.

6. Why did modern and Western societies reject polygamy and embrace single marriage?
Because that's what they were taught be the Church.

7. Is single marriage entirely good?
Not necessarily. It can be horrible if you are wed to a horrible person.

8. Is multiple marriages good?
Depends upon what you mean. And the situation. You can't make general statements like saying it's always "good" or "bad." That thinking is too simplistic.

9. What do you all think about same-sex marriage?
Any couple who desires to be married should be allowed to do so.

Interesting questions. Thanks,

Richard

PS: It would be good if you quit making your stupid cracks about Rose. It's not very nice.

luke1978

07-29-2012, 12:35 AM

I personally do not agree with polygamy or polyandry. It seems to me that God(The all that is) has let man evolve from generation to generation and work out what is right and wrong.

On a side note I even believe in guided evolution from a complex "seed" as a "possibility" but designed by a higher power or something outside of our reality.

I made that statement above because the caveman in me(Even the modern man) has no problem with looking at other females that I am not married too and I used to have a heavy addiction to looking at naked women online. My wife found out and was not very happy but she has always been aware I would never actually touch another woman.

The fact is men are hunters and gatherers and we have evolved to be attracted to multiple females. There is nothing I can do to stop it.

However I think polygamy, one night stands, looking at pornography are destructive behaviours(I have quit pornography for 7 months now!)

I have noticed my mind is cleaner and when I am with my wife my mind no longer wanders to the degree it used too. So what I'm trying to say is if you have a monogamous relationship and block out all temptation you will be a better partner in your marriage so even nature really declares it is for the best.

I personally had to realise I will always notice the physical attributes of women to some extent but I can choose whether to entertain those thoughts and desires or not. This is really where the 666 to 777 conversion helps.

6 = Cave man.
7 = Spiritually evolved with self control.

If I'm walking through a shopping mall I allow myself to "notice" a woman for maybe one second and get it out of my system because if I try and look the other way I end up with a sore neck.

But I have evolved to walk through a shopping mall and not seek out looking at woman so now I find my wife 10 times more attractive.

What is right for me may be wrong for others so I guess when it comes to sex maybe we can never be sure what is considered right or wrong but I agree with many of the points Richard made.

Edit - On that mind wandering part of my post I should explain when you have allowed yourself to entertain the "flesh" for 33 years the mind gets corrupted and it is now for me a process of changing the way I think which takes time. I love my wife with all my heart and soul and if I can "lessen" the cave man thoughts I believe it shows some form of commitment.

CWH

07-29-2012, 06:37 AM

[QUOTE=Richard Amiel McGough;48007]Interesting topic.

From a biblical perspective, there is on problem with polygamy at all. We know this for many reasons. First, God himself gave David multiple wives, so it can't be wrong. And throughout the OT men who were under the direction of God had many wives and God never said a word against it (except once when warning that kings should not multiply too many wives). So that question is settled.
It's natural that men wants more wives than one. One is no enough. I would not blame David for having more wives it goes the same with Chinese emperors with their wives and concubines. Many wives mean many offsprings to carry your seeds. Unknowingly, all of us are descendants of some Kings or Emperors.

Now on to your points:

1. If polygamy is wrong, why did God allowed it and why do Muslims and some cultures still practice it?
It's not wrong according to the Bible. But even if it were, it would have nothing to do with the Muslim or Mormon practice of it because there is no reason to think that everything taught in Islam or Mormonism is true or good.
I always believe that men are naturally polygamous which is why many old men can still be sexually active even in their eighties and nineties whereas women "closed shop" by their fifties.

2. If polygamy is allowed by God and Muslims and some other culture, why not polyandry?
Because the religions were made up by men who were very sexist.
That is not an intelligent answer.
if one want to ensure that their generations were to survive and "fill the earth" is to produce as many offsprings as possible in order to offset infant mortality through polygamy. Polyandry is not an effective way to ensure the survivability of their offsprings. Imagine a woman having 5 husbands, she will not know for sure the child that she born belongs to which husband. Even if the husband were to draw lots so as to queue on who "goes in first", the last husband will have to wait 6 years in order to see the birth of his own child. And the poor woman will have to get pregnant every year in order to satisfy the husband's need for childbirth and everyday for their sexual desires. And if every of her husband wants 3 or 4 children each, the poor woman will have to be pregnant continuously for a few decades! She will die of childbirth before that! And who is going to look after the children, babies and household during these periods?

[
B]3. Do polygamy and polyandry have advantages over single marriage?
[/B]In some cases yes. For example, if there is an imbalance between the number of men and women. Too many women? Polygamy. Too many men? Polyandry. It's not a matter of morals at all.
That is not an intelligent answer also. You mean there were too many women in ancient days and thereby polygamy? Polygamy as I said was to ensure human survivability in ancient days to offset infant mortality so as to fulfill the commandment to fill the earth. Polygamy also helps to ensure that there are no unwanted women such as the crippled, insane, scarred, diseased, ugly etc. who would otherwise live as unloved, unwanted lonely virgins and with no children or companion to take care of them in their old age. Muslims were allow to have more wives only with the consent of the first wife and that the marriage is done with compassion to help the would be wives such as to help them get out of poverty, loneliness, diseases, depression etc.

4. Is polygamy and polyandry immoral?
Polygamy is obviously not immoral from a biblical perspective. But the Bible is silent about polyandry.
Agree with polygamy but not sure with polyandry. Obviously, polyandry is not an option in God's plan which is why there is no mention of polyandry in the Bible.

5. What is the difference between polygamy and polyandry compare to multiple divorces and remarriages, mistresses, concubines, multiple sex partners, adulteries, prostituition, wife/husband-swapping, one-night stand?
There are many differences. Marriage involves promises, so if you break promises with mistresses or adulteries, then that is immoral. But if your wife agrees and you are not deceiving the mistress then it is not immoral.

Things like prostitution and one-night stands are not moral issues so much as foolishness and risky because of health, pregnancy, and so forth. And they are usually foolish from a psychological/spiritual point of view too.

Spouse swapping is also probably foolish, but it's the decision of those who want to do it.
To me, such practices is no difference to polygamy and polyandry. It is a "by product" of single marriage in which people try to find ways and excuses to overcome the limitations of single marriages and the ban on polygamy so as to satisfy their polygamous and sexual urges.

6. Why did modern and Western societies reject polygamy and embrace single marriage?
Because that's what they were taught be the Church.
Not an intelligent answer. Non-Christian societies also reject polygamy and embrace single marriages too. Poor people obviously can only afford single marriage.
More likely is due to societal pressure to be fairer to women to ensure one-man one-woman policy. This is also to avoid conflicts over family issues such as property rights, custody of children, wives conflicts and jealousy etc.

[
B] 7. Is single marriage entirely good?
[/B]Not necessarily. It can be horrible if you are wed to a horrible person.
That's an intelligent answer. What if one married a woman who turned insane or who is infertile, alcoholic or who is of violent or adulterous nature etc. Same goes to the woman who married a single husband who may be a wife-beater, gambler , violent, alcoholic etc. This may lead to conflicts and divorces which we see commonly everyday. Broken families are one of the cause of anti-social behaviors in children. Single marriage is like taking a risk whereas in polygamy you have multiple variables in which you are unlikely to be so unlucky. Multiple marriages means multiple chances for the children to survive and grow up healthily and mentally as if one wife died the others can help look after them... surrogate mothers.

8. Is multiple marriages good?
Depends upon what you mean. And the situation. You can't make general statements like saying it's always "good" or "bad." That thinking is too simplistic.
May not be as it have some psychological and emotional effects on the children of the previous marriages.

9. What do you all think about same-sex marriage?
Any couple who desires to be married should be allowed to do so.
I am against same sex marriages because it is unnatural. It goes against the sanctity of marriage in which "a man must leave his parent and joined to his wife" for the purpose of inbreeding. It would be better in same sex marriage if one of the couple change into the opposite sex.

PS: It would be good if you quit making your stupid cracks about Rose. It's not very nice.
Take it easy, it is meant as a joke as I see Rose as a jumpy woman when it comes to male superiority or inequality over female.

God Bless Marriages.:pray:

CWH

07-29-2012, 07:46 AM

This is an article from a Muslim perspective why polygamy is allowed in Islam. The reasons seem that polygamy is more beneficial to monogamy. Don't get me wrong, I am neutral towards monogamy and polygamy as I do see benefits in both systems although I do believe that there are more benefits in polygamy (if done morally and with compassion rather than through lust) than monogamy which was why God allowed polygamy in the Bible. My conclusion is that polygamy is not wrong if it is done with compassion, kindness instead of lust. Same goes with polyandry.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/328/

Reasons Why Islam Permits Polygamy

Description: Some of the reasons why polygamy has been allowed in Islam, from population statistics to the physical nature of humans.
By IslamReligion.com
Published on 25 Apr 2006 - Last modified on 29 Mar 2011

All mandates of the religion of Islam are from God, the Wise, and thus one deduces that all things which are permitted are due to the fact that their benefit to the self and society outweighs their harms. When one analyzes the reasons and results of the allowance of polygamy, it will be found that indeed the rulings of the religion of Islam are truly those which suits all times and places, as their source is God Almighty, the Wise and the Knowledgeable.

As the Quran indicates (4:3), the issue of polygamy in Islam is understood in the light of community obligations towards orphans and widows. Islam, as a universal religion that is suitable for all times and places, can not ignore these compelling obligations.

Islamic polygamy addresses the social problems of prostitution and extramarital affairs common in the West. Instead of cheating - infidelity is one of the top reasons for divorce in the West - Islam allows a man to marry more than one wife, with full recognition of the rights of both of them. The basic principle in Islam is that men are held responsible for their behavior towards women just as women are responsible for their behavior towards men.

The number of women in the world exceeds that of men. The surplus is a result of men dying in wars, violent crimes, and women outliving men.[1] The upsurge in homosexuality further increases the problem. Bertrand Russell wrote, “And in all countries where there is an excess of women, it is an obvious injustice that those women who, by arithmetical necessity, must remain unmarried should be wholly debarred from sexual experience.”[2] Polygamy, then, is the only responsible solution for this predicament.

Country[3]

Male Population

Female Population

Russia

46.1%

53.9%

UK

48.6%

51.5%

USA

48.8%

51.2%

Brazil

49.7%

50.27%

Let us take the US as an example. Why are extramarital affairs so widespread? “What makes this state of affairs possible, of course, is a supply of willing women. Most are single, both because of the growing numbers of unmarried women (there are 34 million in the United States today) and because single women generally have more free time and energy than do their married counterparts. Consider these statistics: One out of every five women today has no potential mate because there are simply not enough single men to go around. A 25-year-old single woman faces a serious undersupply of available men to start with, and the situation gets worse the older a woman gets. Divorced men are much more likely than divorced women to remarry (and they tend to marry younger women), so that there are more than twice as many single women as there are single men in their 40s. Indeed, a woman who divorces at 35 today is likely to remain single for the rest of her life. Caught in a demographic bind while seeking greater autonomy, more and more single women are opting for involvement with married men.”[4]

In addition, surplus of women who are not financially maintained by a husband is a cause of increased prostitution in the society. For example, Germany has 0.96 males/female. Under Germany’s welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including being a prostitute in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit![5] A 1994 study found that 16% of 18-59 year old men in a US survey group had paid for sex (Gagnon, Laumann, and Kolata 1994).

Furthermore, the problem of the unbalanced sex ratios can worsen during times of war. The WWII war-bride phenomenon is a case in point. After the WWII there were 7,300,000 more women than men in Germany alone (3.3 million of them were widows). There were 100 men aged 20 to 30 for every 167 women in that age group. Many of these women needed a man not only as a companion but also as a provider for the household in a time of unprecedented misery and hardship. The soldiers in the victorious Allied Armies exploited these women’s vulnerability. Many young girls and widows had liaisons with members of the occupying forces. Many American and British soldiers paid for their pleasures in cigarettes, chocolate, and bread.[6]

Polygamy is an alternative to divorce in case of some marital problems. Instead of divorcing a sick or infertile wife, Islam permits a man to marry another woman while taking care of the first if she chooses to stay with him.

The teachings of Islam, including polygamy, conform to human nature. Men and women differ in their desire for sexual variety. These differences are universal. According to evolutionary scientists men are “hard-wired” to spread their seed. Men everywhere - whether single or married - want more sexual partners than women do. The Islamic solution provides the only responsible alternative to the naturally ingrained desire in men.[7]

There is a universal biological constraint in male and female reproduction. A woman’s reproductive capacity declines after her 20s and ends with menopause, but even a man in his 70s retains the ability to father children.[8] Polygamy is a solution for a man who desires more children, especially in traditional, agrarian societies. This may seem irrelevant in the Western context where childbearing is increasingly becoming independent of marriage. Polygamy is also an alternative for a man who desires to satisfy his natural sexual relations within the bounds of marriage, but whose wife may be averse to them due to age or sickness. Moreover, Islam prohibits sexual relations during a woman’s monthly cycles. Therefore, the prolonged menstrual period of the woman which prevents the husband from having sex with her, or a man whose sexual urge is not satisfied by one wife, may marry another. Islam permits such men to realize their desire within a legal framework, making them responsible for their sexuality, so he does not have to resort to cohabitation or prostitution.

Institutional polygamy controls the spread of sexually transmitted diseases like Herpes and AIDS. Such venereal diseases spread in promiscuous societies where extra-marital affairs and prostitution are widespread. This may be due to a husband’s bringing back the diseases he is infected with in an extramarital affair when he returns back to his ‘monogamous’ relationship with his wife.

One can clearly see that there are many benefits which result from the allowance of polygamy. Many societal ills are left untreated, if not created or worsened, due to modern restrictions placed on polygamy. One should not always regard their culture and time the most superior in history, but rather they should analyze customs, traditions and beliefs based on solid and tangible facts. When people do so, keeping and open mind and heart, they will draw nearer and nearer to the truth until it becomes clear as the light of day.

God Blessed.:pray:

CWH

08-03-2012, 04:04 AM

As I have said before, I am neutral in regards to polygamy and monogamy as I know that there are both advantages and disadvantages. It is interesting to see what people said about polygamy and monogamy. This is from a blog with related links:

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Monogamy Pro: It's easier, less fighting, legal, consistency.

Monogamy Con: Consistency, some people get bored. During fights there is no outside influence to assist. Less income. One will probably have to stay home to take care of children, meaning there is half the income, with more expense.
--
Polygamy Pro: More people around to help pay bills, take care of children, take care of house work/yard work. If two are fighting, they can turn to the other(s) in the relationship for their opinion. More love and support for every one.

Polygamy Con: More people in the relationship. More chances of fighting. Illegal (in my area at least).

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080205132926AAA49eA

God Bless marriages; let no man put asunder.:pray:

Alternate

10-08-2012, 07:19 PM

Well, I don't really believe the authority of holy texts, Bible, Quran or otherwise.

"the issue of polygamy in Islam is understood in the light of community obligations towards orphans and widows" - but this is not in reality. Men marry women who are younger than themselves not widows. A man would have to be forced or have something big to gain for marrying a widow. More often than not, marriage n polygamous marriages is for financial reasons rather than love or obligations.

And another thing a polygamous husband does not mean a faithful husband. The bible has many cases of this. King David for example committed adultery, even if he had many wives at that time. So an argument that says a polygamous husband is a faithful husband is not correct.

Also, The male-female ratio you given is near to 50-50. Using mathematics, that should support monogamy than polygamy. Just think, say a man could have two wives, then the required ratio for this to be adequate is 1-2 or 33.33-66.66. If more is allowed say a man could take 4 wives then the ratio would increase to 1-4 or 20-80. With just one look it is quite easy to see that 50-50 is closer to all the male-female ratio statistics you given that say 33.33-66.66 or 20-80. If we implement polygamy, then many men would not have a woman to wife.

To make this even clear lets make a case scenario: we have a community of 100 , and to make it more near to real world statistics, there would be 49 men and 51 women. Then we apply polygamy where a man could marry two women then, 49 men need 98 women, that of course would not work in this case. The best fit is: 25 men married to 50 women, 1 man married to one woman, 23 men unmarried. This would become worse if the men are allowed to have more wives. When a man is able to marry 4: 12 men married to 48 women, 1 man married to three woman, 36 men unmarried. Compare these to monogamy: 49 men married to 49 women, 2 women unmarried. Which of the three cases do you think is better? And those unmarried men with their very great need for sex with multiple women what would they do? Fornicate with the married women?

It is clear that your solution shifts from a few unmarried women to lots of unmarried men. In my mind, polygamy just worsen the problem.

Then you argue that extramarital affairs is because of the number of willing women. That argument ignores the other side, that is, there are also a number of men that are willing to have extramarital affairs. As many people say, it takes to to Tango. Your argument puts the blame solely on the women when in fact men also has to bear the burden of blame too. Not to mention, polygamy does not really offer a solution for this because instead of unmarried women we had unmarried men. Also affairs does not always happen between married men with unmarried women, affairs also happen between married men and married women.

And your case of unmarried women being a cause for increased prostitution is quite wrong. Most unmarried women are widows given the fact that men has shorter lifespan that women. But then men's lifespan is not that short, they are not in the average of 20 or so, they are up to 70! And when a man die at 70ish then the wife would be 70ish also, that is not an age for prostitution. Not to mention, in the Bible, prostitution is also prevalent even if polygamy is in practice!

The more stronger reason why women prostitute themselves is poverty. Just think, a woman needs money to live and since she is improvised she has no education which also means that she can't have jobs. There are few avenues left and most are not really that good: theft, burglary, scamming, and... prostitution. There other reasons of course like support for substance dependence and forced prostitution. If you want to find the fault please focus on the real main cause.

Then, you use a crisis argument, that is during way, men population drops. This is rather true in a regard but think of other crisis situations and their result. During recession, crime rates increase. During famine, violence increase. When earthquake strikes, it's rather tempting to relieve broken stores and such of food and resources without permission (theft). That is in crisis situations, temptation for doing the 'wrong' things increases... but in such situations, does that make such actions good? Also, this argument is moot when there is no war. With efforts to prevent war, women being allowed in war and other things, men population begins to equal the women's.

"Polygamy is an alternative to divorce in case of some marital problems." - Well, this is true but polygamous men rarely use this reason for marrying other women. It doesn't matter if their previous wife is sick or not. They could marry another woman in either case so such condition doesn't offer much wieght as you thought.

"conform to human nature" - this is one of the arguments that people use that most fail to evaluate closely. Natural does not equates to good and by nature we had conflicting natures. It is in our human nature to fornicate, to murder, to steal, to deceive and other evils. If we had to conform to our human nature, then there would be no restraint. Fornication, murder, theft, deception, etc.. You should have noticed that half of the good is from restraining from doing the bad.

"There is a universal biological constraint in male and female reproduction." - again, nature does not equate to good or right. All sorts of fulfilling our urges results to many personal and social problems. Urges for gorging food results to obesity. Urges for revenge results to various crimes. Urges of lust results to adultery. You must realize that doing good does not mean doing the easy things. Most Good are difficult. Think about it.

As for polygamy controlling the spread of STD, the same could be said to monogamy. It could even be argued that monogamy, if followed, is more effective than polygamy. If the couple is faithful to each other, transmission through sex would be almost impossible. As for extramarital affairs, one night stands, prostitution and such; polygamous men are just as susceptible to it as monogamous men. History is loaded with unfaithful polygamous men (just think King David). There is even one ridiculous cartoon about it. It shows an Indian rajah facing his harem and this is what he said to them: Sorry, I'm in love with another harem. It is wrong to think that fulfilling a man's desire for multiple partner is a way to prevent extramarital affairs. A polygamous man does not mean a faithful one.

I can clearly see that polygamy doesn't have that much benefits as you believe. As for your ending statement, wise words... but you should have been following it too.