Twins in the Bible

[duxrow]

TWINS IN THE BIBLE
:hug:
1) The most familiar are Esau and Jacob, Gen25:23, and the peculiar focus on their order of birth, with the body-language expression of Jacob grabbing the heel of the firstborn Esau. Gen 25:23 KJV "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger".

2) Then comes the twins born of Tamar in the parenthetical chapter 38 of Genesis. The scandalous story of Judah fathering Zarah and Pharez puts a special emphasis on the order of their birth when the midwife ties a scarlet thread to the firstborn (the one who first opens the womb).
Further reading reveals how Pharez is in the genealogy of David, but the line of Zarah is wiped out by Achan at Jericho. Josh7:1

3) Not a twin in the same sense, but Castor and Pollux, the Gemeni twins, are mentioned in Acts28:11. A book by E.W.Bullinger "The Witness of the Stars", narrates how the 12 constellations of the Zodiac told the story of the coming of Christ in those ages before writing came into being.

4) Was the Apostle Thomas a twin? He was also called Didymus (means "twin"), although I find no record of his brother anywhere. John11:16, 20:24, 21:2.

5) Manasseh and Ephraim, Gen41:51, are never thought of as twins, but having a father named Joseph and a grand-father named Jacob,calls to mind the same heritage of Mary in Matthew 1:16. Doesn't it? Or maybe not?

6) Triplets? The sons of Noah are a possibility. Ham is called the younger, and Japheth the elder, but that info may only indicate the order of their birth. Gen9:24, 10:21

Like Solomon sang, 7:3, Did I get all the juice from this orange ?? :lol:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The theme of two brothers is very interesting in the Bible. The blessing often goes to the younger which is an inversion of the normal order.

Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn, but the blessing went to Isaac.

Esau was Isaac's firstborn, but the blessing went to Jacob.

I haven't thought about this for a while, but it seemed like there was some sort of pattern here.

[sylvius]

TWINS IN THE BIBLE
:hug:
1) The most familiar are Esau and Jacob, Gen25:23, and the peculiar focus on their order of birth, with the body-language expression of Jacob grabbing the heel of the firstborn Esau. Gen 25:23 KJV "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger".

2) Then comes the twins born of Tamar in the parenthetical chapter 38 of Genesis. The scandalous story of Judah fathering Zarah and Pharez puts a special emphasis on the order of their birth when the midwife ties a scarlet thread to the firstborn (the one who first opens the womb).
Further reading reveals how Pharez is in the genealogy of David, but the line of Zarah is wiped out by Achan at Jericho. Josh7:1

3) Not a twin in the same sense, but Castor and Pollux, the Gemeni twins, are mentioned in Acts28:11. A book by E.W.Bullinger "The Witness of the Stars", narrates how the 12 constellations of the Zodiac told the story of the coming of Christ in those ages before writing came into being.

4) Was the Apostle Thomas a twin? He was also called Didymus (means "twin"), although I find no record of his brother anywhere. John11:16, 20:24, 21:2.

5) Manasseh and Ephraim, Gen41:51, are never thought of as twins, but having a father named Joseph and a grand-father named Jacob,calls to mind the same heritage of Mary in Matthew 1:16. Doesn't it? Or maybe not?

6) Triplets? The sons of Noah are a possibility. Ham is called the younger, and Japheth the elder, but that info may only indicate the order of their birth. Gen9:24, 10:21

Like Solomon sang, 7:3, Did I get all the juice from this orange ?? :lol:

Interesting,
Genesis 25:24,
And her days to give birth were completed, and behold, there were twins in her womb.

Rashi:

there were twins in her womb: [תוֹמִם is spelled] defectively [missing an “aleph” and“yud”], but concerning Tamar, it is written תְּאוֹמִים, with the plene spelling, [with an “aleph” and“yud”] because they (Perez and Zerah) were both righteous, but here, one was righteous and one was wicked. — [From Gen. Rabbah 63:8]

And strange, v. 22 makes already mention of "sons within her":
And the children struggled within her, and she said, "If [it be] so, why am I [like] this?" And she went to inquire of the Lord.

Rashi:

struggled: Perforce, this verse calls for a Midrashic interpretation, for it does not explain what this struggling was all about, and [Scripture] wrote,“If it be so, why am I [like] this?” Our Rabbis (Gen. Rabbah 63:6) interpreted it [the word וַיִתְרוֹצִצוּ] as an expression of running (רוֹצָה) . When she passed by the entrances of [the] Torah [academies] of Shem and Eber, Jacob would run and struggle to come out; when she passed the entrance of [a temple of] idolatry, Esau would run and struggle to come out.

Maybe that's why her name was Rivkah (Rebecca), because it is cognate to "r'veikah"= team (two or three animals yoked together).
For sure she did hold the reins.

[sylvius]

Via google you'll always find your own hobby horses:


http://www.google.nl/search?q=Rivkah+reveikah&rls=com.microsoft:nl:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADFA_nlNL454&redir_esc=&ei=BXb6T7GJMsrd8QOrw4mPAQ#hl=nl&rls=com.microsoft:nl%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADFA_nlNL454&sclient=psy-ab&q=Rivkah+r%27veikah&oq=Rivkah+r%27veikah&gs_l=serp.3...4766.5688.0.6422.2.2.0.0.0.0.406.656 .2-1j0j1.2.0...0.0.qt55JvUftWE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=c3af0f64297c198&biw=1280&bih=820

[sylvius]

6) Triplets? The sons of Noah are a possibility. Ham is called the younger, and Japheth the elder, but that info may only indicate the order of their birth. Gen9:24, 10:21


Genesis 11:10

These are the generations of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and he begot Arpachshad, two years after the Flood.

"Two years after the flood" - that must be the year 1658.
So Shem was born in 1558.

Genesis 5:32,

And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Genesis 8:6,

And Noah was six hundred years old, and the flood came about, water upon the earth

So they did'nt form a triplet ..

[duxrow]

The late-age birthdays of Noah's sons makes me compare to Abraham's old-age 'miracle'.
:yo:
Nothing I see to prevent the 3 boys from being triplets -- no matter how old each made it.. Agree with 1658 being 2 yrs. after Deluge (tho 1 yr. flood), and then sounds like Shem could've had discussion with Abraham! But the numbers get very confusing along here..:thumb:

[sylvius]

The late-age birthdays of Noah's sons makes me compare to Abraham's old-age 'miracle'.
:yo:
Nothing I see to prevent the 3 boys from being triplets -- no matter how old each made it.. Agree with 1658 being 2 yrs. after Deluge (tho 1 yr. flood), and then sounds like Shem could've had discussion with Abraham! But the numbers get very confusing along here..:thumb:

MalkiTzedek is said to have been Shem.

Abraham was born in 1948, so by then Shem was 390 years old.

The war of the four kings against the five, where Abraham gained victory in favor of the five, must have taken place when Abraham was 70 years old, since immediately thereafter the covenant between the pieces took place (Genesis 15), Shem being 460 years old by that time.

[duxrow]

:signthankspin:
Oh yes, Sylvius, Shem seems to have outlived all of that '2nd Ten' generation group. I've heard of him being Melchizedek but don't think much of it -- rather like to point out the thousand years from the cameo intro in Gen. to Ps110, and then ANOTHER thousand years to Heb6-9.

What kind of gouge are you using that gives you the mileage comparison between Shem and Abram? Too much figuring to suit me. hah!

[sylvius]

:signthankspin:
Oh yes, Sylvius, Shem seems to have outlived all of that '2nd Ten' generation group. I've heard of him being Melchizedek but don't think much of it -- rather like to point out the thousand years from the cameo intro in Gen. to Ps110, and then ANOTHER thousand years to Heb6-9.

What kind of gouge are you using that gives you the mileage comparison between Shem and Abram? Too much figuring to suit me. hah!

You can reckon it after.

http://mordochai.tripod.com/#top


Chronology of the Hebrew Bible


Adam died in the year 930;
Shet was born in 130 and died in 1042;
Enosh was born in 235 and died in 1140;
Keinan was born in 325 and died in 1235;
Mahalal'el was born in 395 and died in 1290;
Yered was born in 460 and died in 1422


Hanoch was born in 622 and then "was no more because God had taken him" in 987;

M'tushelah was born in 687 and died in 1656;
Lemech was born in 874 and died in 1651;
No'ah was born in 1056;


and the oldest of No'ah’s three sons was born in 1556.

But which of the three was the oldest? Certainly not Ham, who is referred to explicitly as being No'ah’s
"youngest" son in B'réshit 9:24. This leaves Shem and Yefet (and also forces the conclusion that the sons
are not being named in age-order in B'réshit 5:32 and 6:10, or in Divrei Hayamim Alef 1:4). So was
Shem the oldest of the three brothers, or was it Yefet? B'réshit 10:21 says

[Children] were also born to Shem—[he was] the ancestor of all Éver’s children…

but unfortunately the final phrase of the verse (ahi yefet hagadol) is ambiguous—it could mean EITHER
"…Yefet the Elder’s brother" OR "…Yefet’s older brother". The ambiguity is resolved by B'réshit 11:10,
which tells us that

…Shem was 100 years old when he gave birth to Arpach'shad, two years after the Flood.

This means that Shem was born 98 years before the Flood (in 1558), and hence two years after Yefet,
who was therefore the first son to be born, in 1556, and was thus the oldest of the three brothers.

The Flood itself began on "the 17th day of the 2nd month in the 600th year of No'ah’s life" (B'réshit
7:11) and ended on "the 27th day of the 2nd month" (B'réshit 8:14) "in his 601st year" (B'réshit 8:13)—

i.e. in 1656 and 1657, respectively. The total duration of the whole event, based on these dates, was
therefore a complete "calendar" year, plus an additional eleven days. That may not seem very significant
at first sight, but it should be remembered that a "calendar" year in Biblical terms means 12 lunar
months, or 354 days (because the average length of a lunar month is roughly 29½ days). Thus the total
duration of the whole Flood event, based on the dates given in B'réshit 7:11 and 8:13-14, amounted to
365 days—the precise length of a solar year.
No'ah lived 350 years after [the beginning of] the Flood (B'réshit 9:28), and died at the age of 950
(B'réshit 9:29)—in the year 2006.

No'ah died in the year 2006;

Shem was born in 1558 and died in 2158;
Arpach'shad was born in 1658 and died in 2096;
Shelah was born in 1693 and died in 2126;
Éver was born in 1723 and died in 2187;


Peleg was born in 1757 and died in 1996;
R'u was born in 1787 and died in 2026;
S'rug was born in 1819 and died in 2049;


Nahor was born in 1849 and died in 1997;

Terah was born in 1878 and died in 2083;
and Avram was born in 1948.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Via google you'll always find your own hobby horses:


http://www.google.nl/search?q=Rivkah+reveikah&rls=com.microsoft:nl:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADFA_nlNL454&redir_esc=&ei=BXb6T7GJMsrd8QOrw4mPAQ#hl=nl&rls=com.microsoft:nl%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADFA_nlNL454&sclient=psy-ab&q=Rivkah+r%27veikah&oq=Rivkah+r%27veikah&gs_l=serp.3...4766.5688.0.6422.2.2.0.0.0.0.406.656 .2-1j0j1.2.0...0.0.qt55JvUftWE&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=c3af0f64297c198&biw=1280&bih=820

Very true. And you can also see if anyone else is interested in your "hobby horse" by looking at how many pages Google returns. In your case, it returned three pages. Searching for things that relate to my "hobby horse" such as Bible Symmetry (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=bible+symmetry&oq=bible+symmetry&gs_l=hp.3..0j0i8i30l2.1119.5561.0.6554.14.13.0.0.0 .0.501.3102.0j2j6j2j0j1.11.0...0.0.3S9Im0atHFk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=48ce95a733504573&biw=1519&bih=689) yields 1.3 MILLION pages, and my article titled The Canon Wheel (http://www.biblewheel.com/wheel/Canonwheel_fullsize.asp) comes up in postition #1 at the top of the first page. :p

[duxrow]

:cool3:
Thanks, sylvius, for the link. My own dating is only off by 1 year, which I think may have to do with the one-year Flood -- but close enough for gov. work (used to say..)
Don't know about 'the oldest' -- found out the Ham and Japheth lines didn't lead to Abram, and not sure what order the trio were born, or whether it's important..:winking0071:

515

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:cool3:
Thanks, sylvius, for the link. My own dating is only off by 1 year, which I think may have to do with the one-year Flood -- but close enough for gov. work (used to say..)
Don't know about 'the oldest' -- found out the Ham and Japheth lines didn't lead to Abram, and not sure what order the trio were born, or whether it's important..:winking0071:

515
Those dates are wrong. The Bible does not tell us the month of the birth of each person, so each date is off by an average of 6 months. This means that the dates are off by the number of generations times 6 months. That's a ten years uncertainty after 20 generations.

[sylvius]

:cool3:


Shem did also outlive Isaac and Jacob.

Isaac was born in 2048, Jacob was born in 2108, Shem died in 2158, Ever in 2187.
Abraham died in 2123.
Esau sold his birthright on the day that Abraham died, so when he was 15 (and when Jacob of course was 15 too)
Isaac died in 2228
Jacob died in 2255

[sylvius]

Those dates are wrong. The Bible does not tell us the month of the birth of each person, so each date is off by an average of 6 months. This means that the dates are off by the number of generations times 6 months. That's a ten years uncertainty after 20 generations.
I thought it was a "rule" that the birthday coincides the dying day.
That it is reckoned with that.

[duxrow]

I thought it was a "rule" that the birthday coincides the dying day.
That it is reckoned with that.
:dizzy:
Wouldn't worry about it -- Myself never heard of a rule like that, and am thinking of how "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life". Interesting to
follow these numbers, but to what end? And does God allow us to round off numbers? And Jesus made a remark, John2l:22 about someone tarrying till he returned..
Don't know how that fits in exactly. Maybe gives a little more credence about Shem doing the writing or being Melchizedek. ha :eek:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I thought it was a "rule" that the birthday coincides the dying day.
That it is reckoned with that.
Then you thought wrong. There is not a word in the Bible that would support such a rule. It was just made up by someone who noticed that there would be no other way to invent doctrines based on those numbers if they adhered to what the Bible really says.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:dizzy:
Wouldn't worry about it -- Myself never heard of a rule like that, and am thinking of how "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life". Interesting to
follow these numbers, but to what end? And does God allow us to round off numbers? And Jesus made a remark, John2l:22 about someone tarrying till he returned..
Don't know how that fits in exactly. Maybe gives a little more credence about Shem doing the writing or being Melchizedek. ha :eek:
Yeah, I agree. It's pretty silly to worry about things like facts, truth, and reality when there is a whole world of fantasy just waiting to be taught by the "spirit."

As for Melkizedek we have some interesting identities relating him to Jesus Christ:

754 = My Holy Name = Yehoshua HaMeshiach (Hb: Jesus Christ) = Melkizedek King of Peace
(http://biblewheel.com/gr/gr_754.asp)

[duxrow]

Yeah, I agree. It's pretty silly to worry about things like facts, truth, and reality when there is a whole world of fantasy just waiting to be taught by the "spirit."

As for Melkizedek we have some interesting identities relating him to Jesus Christ:

754 = My Holy Name = Yehoshua HaMeshiach (Hb: Jesus Christ) = Melkizedek King of Peace
(http://biblewheel.com/gr/gr_754.asp)
:winking0071:
HaHa - What's meticulous to me, is nitpicky to the other guy -- Right? And vice versus, of course.
Melchi is an outstanding example of theophany or Christophany, like the swordsman to Joshua, or the 4th man in fiery furnace. Even so, he ties the accounts of Genesis, the Psalms, and Hebrews into a neat pkg. IMO. :thumb:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:winking0071:
HaHa - What's meticulous to me, is nitpicky to the other guy -- Right? And vice versus, of course.

That's a very interesting point!

But when I think about it, I don't see anything meticulous about the way you work the genealogies to get 66 generations or the number of years. Both lines of reasoning are based on assumptions that seem erroneous to me. But hey! That's just me. Carry on!



Melchi is an outstanding example of theophany or Christophany, like the swordsman to Joshua, or the 4th man in fiery furnace. Even so, he ties the accounts of Genesis, the Psalms, and Hebrews into a neat pkg. IMO. :thumb:
Yeah, those three are pretty good OT Christophanies. Though the one with one with Melkizedek is the only one with good NT confirmation.

[duxrow]

:focus:
RAM, I know you believe it's Mary's husband in Matt 1:16, but I'm equally or
moreso confident that it's her Father, and because that makes the Jacob there

her grand-father -- it means to me that he's been "grand-fathered in" :winking0071:

1. Mary had a husband and a father, both named Joseph! (As we do-Isa54:5).

2. The Joseph in Egypt wasn't in Jesus genealogy -- neither was her husband.

3. The 33 generations to David in 3 groups of TEN, is followed by another 33
generations to Jesus in the familiar 3 groups of Fourteen!

4. Every name in the 66 generations from Adam to Jesus is unique, except for
the name Jacob in the 63rd. No other repeats among the 66 names.

5. Many names in the Luke 3 genealogy are copy-cat repeats.

6. The Matthew line is the King Line of David -- the Luke line is the Priest Line
that goes from Nathan to Zacharias.

7. The name Joseph ('the Lord will add a son') applied to Benjamin in the OT,
but can't you see how it also applies to the betrothed of Mary?:p

[luke1978]

:focus:
RAM, I know you believe it's Mary's husband in Matt 1:16, but I'm equally or
moreso confident that it's her Father, and because that makes the Jacob there

her grand-father -- it means to me that he's been "grand-fathered in" :winking0071:

1. Mary had a husband and a father, both named Joseph! (As we do-Isa54:5).

2. The Joseph in Egypt wasn't in Jesus genealogy -- neither was her husband.

3. The 33 generations to David in 3 groups of TEN, is followed by another 33
generations to Jesus in the familiar 3 groups of Fourteen!

4. Every name in the 66 generations from Adam to Jesus is unique, except for
the name Jacob in the 63rd. No other repeats among the 66 names.

5. Many names in the Luke 3 genealogy are copy-cat repeats.

6. The Matthew line is the King Line of David -- the Luke line is the Priest Line
that goes from Nathan to Zacharias.

7. The name Joseph ('the Lord will add a son') applied to Benjamin in the OT,
but can't you see how it also applies to the betrothed of Mary?:p

It is written there are 77 generations from God to Jesus in Luke 3.

Are you saying the book of Luke is wrong?

This guy has a whole site devoted to this fact:

http://www.madewithouthands.net/6-76-Generations/html-txt/76-Generations-txt.html

I haven't read the whole link yet:

Extract:

The arrangement of the verses define the form and measures of the Holy of Holies

The arrangement of verses from Luke 3:23 to 3:38, where the generations of Jesus are listed in the King James bible, gives 3 names in verse 23, then 5 names per verse from 24 to 37 and 3 names in verse 38, this is 76 men born from Adam to and including Jesus, which is 75 men born between God and Jesus Christ. This gives a total of 77 persons including God and his son as the first and last.

The grouping of names in verses 24 through 37 defines 70 names, 14 x 5 = 70. If this is multiplied by the 3 names of verse 23 and then by the 3 names of verse 38, as 70 x 3 x 3 = 630, this defines the volume of a 28 board measure perimeter of the Holy of Holies in cubic cubits. According to the square board theory, each board of the Tabernacle was 1.5 x 1.5 x 10 = 22.5 cubic cubits in volume and there were 22 boards surrounding the Holy of Holies with a 6 board measure entrance area, for a total perimeter of 28 board measures, so 28 x 22.5 = 630 cubic cubits. If these same values are compared, as 3 + 3 x 70 = 420, this is = to the measure of the 28 board measure perimeter x the height of the boards, according to 28 board measures x 1.5 cubits per board x 10 = 420. The grouping of the names above also define the number of boards measured in the perimeter, there are 2 verses having 3 names each and 14 verses having 5 names each, if these values are compared, as 2 x 14 = 28, this is the total number of board measures of the perimeter. Similarly, 3 x 5 = 15, this is the square surface area of 1 board face, according to 1.5 cu. width x 10 cu. height, as 1.5 x 10 = 15. So defined in the grouping of the generations from God to Jesus Christ, as described in the gospel of Luke from the KJV, is the form of the 28 board measure perimeter of the Holy of Holies, according to the measure of this 28 board perimeter x its' height and the volume of this 4 sided perimeter, ( see illustration, "28 Board Measure Perimeter" ).

End Extract:

[sylvius]

:dizzy:
Wouldn't worry about it -- Myself never heard of a rule like that, and am thinking of how "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life". Interesting to
follow these numbers, but to what end? And does God allow us to round off numbers? And Jesus made a remark, John2l:22 about someone tarrying till he returned..

To my understanding John 21:22 is about Lazarus, Lazarus being the 318 trained servants with whom Abraham did gain victory over the four kings in favor of the five, Abraham being the master of whom Psalms 110 does speak: "Word of the Lord to my master"



:Don't know how that fits in exactly. Maybe gives a little more credence about Shem doing the writing or being Melchizedek. ha :eek:

Melchizedek is said to be priest to the most high God buyer of heaven and earth. (Genesis 14:19)

"Most high" might allude to midheaven, the Medium Coeli, right above the top of your head.

Buyer = "koneh"- from "kanah"= to buy.

The Canaanites said be tradesmen.

Genesis 38:2,

And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her.

Rashi:

Caaanite: Heb. כְּנַעִנִי [Onkelos renders] תַּגְרָא, a merchant.

That Melchizedek was Shem follows then from Genesis 12:6,

And Abram passed through the land, until the place of Shechem, until the oak of Moreh, and the Canaanites were then in the land.

Rashi:

and the Canaanites were then in the land: He [the Canaanite] was gradually conquering the Land of Israel from the descendants of Shem, for it fell in Shem’s share when Noah apportioned the land to his sons, as it is said (below 14: 18):“And Malchizedek the king of Salem.” Therefore, (below verse 7): And the Lord said to Abram: To your seed will I give this land. I am destined to restore it to your children, who are of the descendants of Shem. [from Sifra, end of Kedoshim]

[Richard Amiel McGough]

To my understanding John 21:22 is about Lazarus, Lazarus being the 318 trained servants with whom Abraham did gain victory over the four kings in favor of the five, Abraham being the master of whom Psalms 110 does speak: "Word of the Lord to my master"

Where in the world did you get the idea that Psalm 110 was talking about Abraham? Peter plainly says it speaks of Christ:

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[sylvius]

Where in the world did you get the idea that Psalm 110 was talking about Abraham? Peter plainly says it speaks of Christ:

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Psalms 110 is about Genesis 14.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Psalms 110 is about Genesis 14.
So you deny the words of Christ and Peter?

Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. 38 ¶ And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[sylvius]

So you deny the words of Christ and Peter?



The clue of it might be that the Messiah isn't son of David at all.

The Pharisees expecting a physical descendant of David as Messiah.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

The clue of it might be that the Messiah isn't son of David at all.

The Pharisees expecting a physical descendant of David as Messiah.
If Christ was the Messiah, then the Pharisees were wrong.

Are you denying Christ was Messiah?

[duxrow]

:attention:
Messiah/Messias
twice in Daniel / twice in John

Dan9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince.."

Dan9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.."

John4:25 "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. v26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he".

John1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

And Jesus absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David: from Jacob to Joseph, to Mary to Jesus is like from #63 to #66 in the pedigree of Christ! :thumb:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

And Jesus absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David: from Jacob to Joseph, to Mary to Jesus is like from #63 to #66 in the pedigree of Christ! :thumb:
Since when are Biblical genealogies reckoned through the mother's line? Christ was not the son of any man, so how could be be the "son of David" in any literal sense? Christians argue that he was "legally" the son of David because his step-dad was a literal son of David, but that means he was not the literal physical descendant of David.

[CWH]

Jess was literally called the Son of David, if He is not, why didn't He publicly rebuked them?

Matthew 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 9:27
And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Matthew 12:23
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Matthew 15:22
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Matthew 20:30
And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.

Matthew 20:31
And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Matthew 21:15
And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,

Matthew 22:42
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

God Blessed.:pray:

[duxrow]

Since when are Biblical genealogies reckoned through the mother's line? Christ was not the son of any man, so how could be be the "son of David" in any literal sense? Christians argue that he was "legally" the son of David because his step-dad was a literal son of David, but that means he was not the literal physical descendant of David.

:smash:
I never did buy into that 'legally' biz -- am thinking how 'Adam' was 'their' name, including Eve, and the male/female lines are a comparison/contrast similar to King-Priest. Looking back and seeing how all those generations included sons UNTIL we arrived at the proper count so Jesus would be #66. Planned ahead, I'm sure... :thumb:

While we're at it..
Father/Son two-some
Lk3 records: Neri, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Rhesa,

Whereas Matt 1 says: Jechonias, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud,

I figure two different sets, adding to our confusion. And You say??

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:smash:
I never did buy into that 'legally' biz -- am thinking how 'Adam' was 'their' name, including Eve, and the male/female lines are a comparison/contrast similar to King-Priest. Looking back and seeing how all those generations included sons UNTIL we arrived at the proper count so Jesus would be #66. Planned ahead, I'm sure... :thumb:

OK - if we follow that logic, then pretty much every Jew is a physical descendant of David. This is because of the way population dynamics work. Everyone is actually related to everyone else. Each person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, etc. It's exponential. 2N. Go back just N = 100 generations and you will find that you have

2100 = 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 ancestors!

Uh ... that's 1.2 x 1030 which is, of course, absurd. So what really happened? The folks who lived in the distant past are really the grandparents of everyone. We all descended from all the people that have any living descendants because of how populations mix. This is why genealogies are meaningless. Everyone is related to everyone. Everyone is a literal "son of David" and everyone is a literal "son of Abraham" and everyone is a literal "son of Esau." If those people have any living descendents, then we are all related. It's like a drop of ink in an ocean. It dissolves until a microscopic amount is found in every drop of water.



While we're at it..
Father/Son two-some
Lk3 records: Neri, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Rhesa,

Whereas Matt 1 says: Jechonias, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud,

I figure two different sets, adding to our confusion. And You say??
I say you are exactly correct. The genealogies just "add to our confusion."

The genealogies in Matthew and Luke are directly contradictory and cannot be resolved.

[duxrow]

OK - if we follow that logic, then pretty much every Jew is a physical descendant of David. This is because of the way population dynamics work. Everyone is actually related to everyone else. Each person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, etc. It's exponential. 2N. Go back just N = 100 generations and you will find that you have

2100 = 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 ancestors!

Uh ... that's 1.2 x 1030 which is, of course, absurd. So what really happened? The folks who lived in the distant past are really the grandparents of everyone. We all descended from all the people that have any living descendants because of how populations mix. This is why genealogies are meaningless. Everyone is related to everyone. Everyone is a literal "son of David" and everyone is a literal "son of Abraham" and everyone is a literal "son of Esau." If those people have any living descendents, then we are all related. It's like a drop of ink in an ocean. It dissolves until a microscopic amount is found in every drop of water. I say you are exactly correct. The genealogies just "add to our confusion."
The genealogies in Matthew and Luke are directly contradictory and cannot be resolved.Baloney!
:eek:
You just really don't get it, do you. How "Father to Son" goes right down the line until coming to the father who doesn't have a son--only a daughter. And how the Holy Ghostwriter is NOT trying to make it easy for us--we're supposed to STUDY if we want answers. Not saying i have all of them, but every now and then I do get answers which continue to clarify scripture and see how the Word is Truth. :thumb:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Jess was literally called the Son of David, if He is not, why didn't He publicly rebuked them?

Yes, Jesus was literally called the "Son of David." But that does not mean he was called the literal "Son of David."

Do you understand the difference?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Baloney!
:eek:

How can you say baloney? Are you saying that you didn't have two parents and four grandparents?

It appears you do not understand population dynamics.



You just really don't get it, do you. How "Father to Son" goes right down the line until coming to the father who doesn't have a son--only a daughter. And how the Holy Ghostwriter is NOT trying to make it easy for us--we're supposed to STUDY if we want answers. Not saying i have all of them, but every now and then I do get answers which continue to clarify scripture and see how the Word is Truth. :thumb:
I understand perfectly how some people think that the genealogy terminates in Christ's mother. Others disagree. But what does any of that have to do with the fact that everyone is a descendant of David?

[duxrow]

How can you say baloney? Are you saying that you didn't have two parents and four grandparents?

It appears you do not understand population dynamics.
We aren't (I'm not) speaking of nails in the horse-shoe.. Why did you think we were?
I understand perfectly how some people think that the genealogy terminates in Christ's mother. Others disagree. But what does any of that have to do with the fact that everyone is a descendant of David?
:bawl:
Everyone is a descendant of Adam, and related to Noah's 3 sons, but following the seed that's passed from father to son -- like our Heavenly Father has passed the "Incorruptible Seed" in the form of his son (the Word), so that WE can be called "son's of God", is the subject here. Not just sons, but also daughters, which ought to bless Rose no end. Let me say it again: the gender diff is similar to the King-Priest diff, having to do with why no marriage in Heaven.. OK? :yo:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:bawl:
Everyone is a descendant of Adam, and related to Noah's 3 sons, but following the seed that's passed from father to son -- like our Heavenly Father has passed the "Incorruptible Seed" in the form of his son (the Word), so that WE can be called "son's of God", is the subject here. Not just sons, but also daughters, which ought to bless Rose no end. Let me say it again: the gender diff is similar to the King-Priest diff, having to do with why no marriage in Heaven.. OK? :yo:
I don't follow your comment that "the subject here" is "so that WE can be called 'son's of God'". I was answering your statement that Jesus "absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David":

duxrow: And Jesus absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David:

Are you retracting this statement now?

And what about the evidence I gave that everyone is descended from David? Do you understand how population dynamics work, or do you still think it's all "baloney"?

[duxrow]

I don't follow your comment that "the subject here" is "so that WE can be called 'son's of God'". I was answering your statement that Jesus "absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David":

duxrow: And Jesus absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David:

Are you retracting this statement now?
And what about the evidence I gave that everyone is descended from David? Do you understand how population dynamics work, or do you still think it's all "baloney"?
:arghh:
Still baloney--no retraction. Let me try it another way though, seeing you're so dense. It's like the thread that connected to Rahab -- the thread that goes 'father to son' (follow it carefully!) from Adam to Seth (not to a diff son, but to Seth) and then the HG lays it out for you to follow to Noah.

But at Noah comes the fork in the road--which of the 3 boys do we follow? Shem, it turns out, is the one leading to Abram. The 'thread' goes in similar fashion all the way to the father of Mary-- and it hooks many of the books of the Bible together as well.. Two of the sons of David are in contention -- which way leads to Christ?? Think we've been over this ground recently, so will let it go at that.:pray:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:arghh:
Still baloney--no retraction. Let me try it another way though, seeing you're so dense.

It gives me the giggles when folks who don't understand basic population dynamics call me "dense." :lol:



It's like the thread that connected to Rahab -- the thread that goes 'father to son' (follow it carefully!) from Adam to Seth (not to a diff son, but to Seth) and then the HG lays it out for you to follow to Noah.

But at Noah comes the fork in the road--which of the 3 boys do we follow? Shem, it turns out, is the one leading to Abram. The 'thread' goes in similar fashion all the way to the father of Mary-- and it hooks many of the books of the Bible together as well.. Two of the sons of David are in contention -- which way leads to Christ?? Think we've been over this ground recently, so will let it go at that.:pray:
That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with our assertion that Christ was "absolutely the physical son of David"?

I think you are causing your face to get red. Just stay on topic and explain yourself clearly and I will understand.

Please remain calm! :D

[duxrow]

It gives me the giggles when folks who don't understand basic population dynamics call me "dense."
That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with our assertion that Christ was "absolutely the physical son of David"?
I think you are causing your face to get red. Just stay on topic and explain yourself clearly and I will understand.
Please remain calm! :D

RAM: I understand perfectly how some people think that the genealogy terminates in Christ's mother. Others disagree. But what does any of that have to do with the fact that everyone is a descendant of David?
:banghead:
Grandfather x 33, and tribe of Judah is how I mean 'physical' -- not from any of the other tribes, but of David's bloodline. The "Jacob to Joseph" in Matthew 1:16 should put you in mind of how the sons of Joseph in Egypt had a grandfather named Jacob.Only two Jacobs in scripture: both had a son named Joseph.
There are forty (count'em) names between the 2 Jacobs in the Pedigree. Stop giggling though, or you'll miscount.:lol:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:banghead:
Grandfather x 33, and tribe of Judah is how I mean 'physical' -- not from any of the other tribes, but of David's bloodline. The "Jacob to Joseph" in Matthew 1:16 should put you in mind of how the sons of Joseph in Egypt had a grandfather named Jacob.Only two Jacobs in scripture: both had a son named Joseph.
There are forty (count'em) names between the 2 Jacobs in the Pedigree. Stop giggling though, or you'll miscount.:lol:
I'm sorry, but I must be truly dense. I don't have a clue about how mere descent from Judah could be equated with "absolutely WAS physically the son of David." Your words shift around too much, and you write cryptic things like "Grandfather x 33." What was that supposed to mean?

[duxrow]

I'm sorry, but I must be truly dense. I don't have a clue about how mere descent from Judah could be equated with "absolutely WAS physically the son of David." Your words shift around too much, and you write cryptic things like "Grandfather x 33." What was that supposed to mean?
:dontknow:
Ram, sometimes I think you're just pulling my leg. I'm referring to the difference between physical and spiritual in that quote -- the diff between a bloodline connection and 'blood brother' or spiritual alike. Hope you weren't thinking how David and Jesus shook hands or met up somewhere in the past.. The 33 generations from Adam to Jesus are like a school teacher for the 33 from David to Jesus -- so David was ggggggggggggggggggggggrandfather of Jesus! OK? (imagine 33 g's)

Concerning the 'Rahab Thread'
When the pedigree trail, or thread, reaches 'brothers', then we have to decide which brother leads to Jesus, because the wrong brother will take you to a dead-end or over a cliff. (fig. of speech)

That's the way it is today also -- don't be led astray by listening to a wrong 'brother', but instead follow after Jesus, the Word. (literal)

It is written "the 'common' people heard him gladly", and that may be a loophole for you... (hope it's comfy)

[sylvius]

Where in the world did you get the idea that Psalm 110 was talking about Abraham?

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16331/showrashi/true


The word of the Lord to my master: Our Rabbis interpreted it as referring to Abraham our father, and I shall explain it according to their words (Mid. Ps. 110:1): The word of the Lord to Abraham, whom the world called “my master,” as it is written (Gen. 23: 6): “Hearken to us, my master.”

(...)

The staff of: [This is] an expression of support, as (above 105:16): “every staff of bread.”

The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion: When you return from the war and your men are weary and in pursuit, the Lord will send you Malchizedek, king of Salem, to bring out bread and wine (Gen. 14: 14).

(...)

Your people will volunteer on the day of your host: When you gather an army to pursue them, your people and your friends will volunteer to go out with you, as we find (Gen. 14:14): “and he armed his trained men, those born in his house,” and no more; and Aner, Eshkol, and Mamre volunteered by themselves to go out to his aid.

(...)

The Lord swore and will not repent: Since Abraham was afraid lest he be punished for the troops that he had killed, it was said to him (Gen. 15: 1): “Fear not, Abraham, etc.”

(...)

you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek: From you will emerge the priesthood and the kingship that your children will inherit from Shem your progenitor, the priesthood and the kingship, which were given to him. דִבְרָתִי מלכי-צדק. The “yud” is superfluous, like (Lam. 1: 1): “the city that was once so populous (רבתי).” Because of the speech of Malchizedek, because of the command of Malchizedek. You are a priest, Heb. כהן. The word כהן bears the connotation of priesthood and rulership, as (II Sam. 8:18): “and David’s sons were chief officers.”

(...)

The Lord: Who was on your right hand in battle.

has crushed kings on the day of His wrath: The four kings. He…

(...)

will execute justice upon the nations [into] a heap of corpses: This is the tidings of the ‘covenant between the segments,’ [in] which was stated to him concerning Egypt (Gen. 15:14): “But also that nation whom they will serve do I judge.”

a heap of corpses: Heb. מלא, a heap of corpses. מלא is an expression of gathering, as (Jer. 12:6): “have called a gang (מלא) after you” ; (Isa. 31: 4), “although a band (מלא) of shepherds gather against him.” Now where did He execute justice, making them a heap of corpses? (Exod. 14:30), “the Egyptians dead on the seashore.”

[sylvius]

Psalms 110:1,

נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי--שֵׁב לִימִינִי

"n'um hashem ladoni -- sheiv limini"
saying of the Lord to my master

"my master"= Abraham


Psalms 110:5,


אֲדֹנָי עַל-יְמִינְךָ

"adonai al-y'mincha",
"Lord at your right hand"

"Lord" -- the Messiah?

[duxrow]

:yo:Hi Sylvius, I don't see this as referring to Abraham, but more like the focus on the all-capital
LORD vs the first letter Lord, for the KJV readers anyway.

Psalms:110:1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalms:110:4: The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalms:110:5: The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

"At thy right hand" speaks of Jesus beside Jehovah, as in Acts 2:25.

Just my thinking -- not proficient in Hebrew, so maybe more to it. You think?:thumb:

[sylvius]

:yo:Hi Sylvius, I don't see this as referring to Abraham, but more like the focus on the all-capital
LORD vs the first letter Lord, for the KJV readers anyway.

Psalms:110:1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalms:110:4: The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalms:110:5: The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

"At thy right hand" speaks of Jesus beside Jehovah, as in Acts 2:25.

Just my thinking -- not proficient in Hebrew, so maybe more to it. You think?:thumb:

Pslams 110:1,
נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי "n'um hashem ladoni"

"adon"= master, "adoni" = my master. "adonai" = Lord, used for "hashem"= the four lettered Name (you cannot pronounce),

You say: "shma Yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echad" ("Hear Israel the Lord is our God The Lord is one")

v.4:
נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה "nishba hashem" = the Lord has sworn.

v.5:
אֲדֹנָי עַל-יְמִינְךָ "adonai y'mincha" = the Lord at your right hand

Rather confusing...

Did they change seat?

I think it means something else. You shouldn't make a "graven image" out if it.

[duxrow]

Not switching seats IMO, but rather puts emphasis on relation of Son to the Father.

Matt22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

[sylvius]

Not switching seats IMO, but rather puts emphasis on relation of Son to the Father.

Matt22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

The Greek makes it unclear.

For it has for "hashem" (Tetragrammaton), for "adon" (master) and for "adonai" (Lord) one and the same word "kurios".

KJV is wrong with it's use of capital letter "L".

That's why (and also because of many other "perversions") it is called KJPV, the King James Perversion ...


http://www.septuagint.org/LXX/Psalms/109

1. τῷ *δαυιδ ψαλμός εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου

2. ῥάβδον δυνάμεώς σου ἐξαποστελεῖ κύριος ἐκ *σιων καὶ κατακυρίευε ἐν μέσῳ τῶν ἐχθρῶν σου

3. μετὰ σοῦ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐν ἡμέρᾳ τῆς δυνάμεώς σου ἐν ταῖς λαμπρότησιν τῶν ἁγίων ἐκ γαστρὸς πρὸ ἑωσφόρου ἐξεγέννησά σε

4. ὤμοσεν κύριος καὶ οὐ μεταμεληθήσεται σὺ εἶ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα κατὰ τὴν τάξιν *μελχισεδεκ

5. κύριος ἐκ δεξιῶν σου συνέθλασεν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ βασιλεῖς

6. κρινεῖ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν πληρώσει πτώματα συνθλάσει κεφαλὰς ἐπὶ γῆς πολλῶν

7. ἐκ χειμάρρου ἐν ὁδῷ πίεται διὰ τοῦτο ὑψώσει κεφαλήν

[Richard Amiel McGough]

:dontknow:
Ram, sometimes I think you're just pulling my leg. I'm referring to the difference between physical and spiritual in that quote -- the diff between a bloodline connection and 'blood brother' or spiritual alike. Hope you weren't thinking how David and Jesus shook hands or met up somewhere in the past.. The 33 generations from Adam to Jesus are like a school teacher for the 33 from David to Jesus -- so David was ggggggggggggggggggggggrandfather of Jesus! OK? (imagine 33 g's)

OK - I was totally dense about "Grandfather x 33" as meaning "33rd paternal ancestor." That's because I don't believe in your table of 66 generations so I wasn't thinking along those lines. Sorry! :doh:

[Richard Amiel McGough]

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16331/showrashi/true
So you agree with Rashi and deny that Christ is Messiah?

Why then do you have any interest in the NT if you reject its central claim?

[sylvius]

So you agree with Rashi and deny that Christ is Messiah?

Why then do you have any interest in the NT if you reject its central claim?

I don't.

NT is written in Greek, not in KJV English.

Question put by Jesus:

"How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?"

And next:
"For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my master, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him master; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly."

In the Gospel of John Jesus called Lazarus out of the grave, Lazarus = Abraham's 318 servants, who assisted him in making his enemies his footstool.
So Jesus became the "true" master of Lazarus (= Eliezer = my God is help).
Because of this calling out of the grave the High Priest began to seek Jesus's death.
Sadducees don't like gematria.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I don't.

NT is written in Greek, not in KJV English.

Question put by Jesus:

"How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?"

And next:
"For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my master, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David therefore himself calleth him master; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly."

In the Gospel of John Jesus called Lazarus out of the grave, Lazarus = Abraham's 318 servants, who assisted him in making his enemies his footstool.
So Jesus became the "true" master of Lazarus (= Eliezer = my God is help).
Because of this calling out of the grave the High Priest began to seek Jesus's death.
Sadducees don't like gematria.

I'm not talking about the KJV. I'm talking about the Greek NT. It says the Psalm 110 is about Jesus. From what you have written, I get the impression that you think the NT is wrong and Psalm 110 is not about Jesus. Is this what you are saying?

[sylvius]

I'm not talking about the KJV. I'm talking about the Greek NT. It says the Psalm 110 is about Jesus. From what you have written, I get the impression that you think the NT is wrong and Psalm 110 is not about Jesus. Is this what you are saying?

I must think deeper on it.

There is some relation
Abraham - Eliezer - promised seed - Jesus - Lazarus - beloved disciple (= me).

[duxrow]

OK - I was totally dense about "Grandfather x 33" as meaning "33rd paternal ancestor." That's because I don't believe in your table of 66 generations so I wasn't thinking along those lines. Sorry! :doh:
Consider, Richard,
:pop2:Four verses of scripture tell us that David ruled seven (7) years in Hebron, and thirty-three (33) in Jerusalem:
2Sam5:5, 1Kings2:11, 1Chr3:4, 1Chr29:27

2Sam23:22: These things did Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and had the name among three mighty men.
v23: He was more honourable than the thirty, but he attained not to the first three. And David set him over his guard. v24: Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty..

Understand you don't buy the 66 gens, but maybe the 33 to David?

The 3 groups of ten generations: Noah#10 in Gen5 / Abram#20 / Boaz#30 and David#33, because Ruth 4:18 skips 3 names.

Just checking. Maybe doesn't amount to much...:bricks:

[sylvius]

I'm not talking about the KJV. I'm talking about the Greek NT. It says the Psalm 110 is about Jesus. From what you have written, I get the impression that you think the NT is wrong and Psalm 110 is not about Jesus. Is this what you are saying?



Romans 8:34 might allude to Psalms 110:

Who then is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus who died —more than that, who was raised to life —is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.


Which indeed might be about the secret of the 153 large fish, remission of sin, which is a gematrial thing.
"Sitting at the right hand" alluding to the world of gematria (like the number of 318 trained servants alluded to Eliezer).

[duxrow]

From Mt 1:16 it appears that Jesus had a father named Joseph and grandpa named Jacob, which would also be the case for Ephraim and Manasseh (twins, you think?) -- or more like Jew & Gentile? You think? :sCo_hmmthink:

[Unregistered]

The theme of two brothers is very interesting in the Bible. The blessing often goes to the younger which is an inversion of the normal order.

Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn, but the blessing went to Isaac.

Esau was Isaac's firstborn, but the blessing went to Jacob.

I haven't thought about this for a while, but it seemed like there was some sort of pattern here.

There is an interesting pattern here for sure.
In a series of discussion with an Israeli friend of mine, which are included in one of the chapters of her book The Gate of Heaven,
we wrote the following.


The Bible describes something that happened in the garden of Eden which is known as ׳the fall of man׳.
That was an incident that somehow transferred Adam?s rights to rule the earth, to satan. That?s why Yeshua
calls satan the ruler of this world (John 14:30, 12:31-33; Luke 4:5-6). And it seems as if satan had received
the right over every firstborn as well. For we see that God never chooses the firstborn up to the time of Moses.

The firstborn of Adam, Cain, kills his brother Abel, and God chooses Seth (Genesis 5 mentions all the line of the
chosen ones, disregarding the firstborn, Cain is not on the list). The generations before the flood end with
Noah, and his purpose was to bring through the chosen seed of God, Genesis 5:28-29: And Lamech lived a hundred eighty
and two years, and begat a son: And he called his name Noah, saying, this same SHALL COMFORT US concerning our work
and toil of our hands, BECAUSE of the ground which the Lord hath CURSED. Shem, Noah's son was God's chosen one among
the 3 sons of Noah.

They appear in the order "Shem, Ham, and Japheth" (Genesis 9:18, 10:1, 5:32), but Genesis 9:24 clearly states that Ham
is the youngest, which in turn shows us that the list is not according to the order of birth but according to God?s choice.
Additionally, Genesis 10:21 refers to Shem as "brother of Japheth the elder," which could mean that either is the eldest,
but we will see how this is clarified: The Bible tells us that Noah had children when he was 500 years old (Genesis 5:32),
and he was 600 years old when the flood came (Genesis 7:6). The Bible also tells us that Shem was 100 years old when
he begat his first son, and that was two years after the flood (Genesis 11:10), which tells us that Shem was 98 years old
at the time of the flood, so he cannot be the firstborn because Noah was 502 years old when Shem was born. Therefore, the
correct order of birth is: Japheth (the firstborn), Shem, and Ham (the youngest). Shem was the second child, and he appears
first on Genesis 5 because he was the chosen one.
Ishmael, Abraham's firstborn, loses his birthright to Isaac. God chooses Isaac (Genesis 17:21).
Esau, the firstborn of Isaac, loses his birthright to Jacob. God chooses Jacob (Romans 9:10-13).
Menashe, Joseph's firstborn, loses the birthright blessings to Ephraim (Genesis 48:14). God chooses Ephraim (as a foreshadow
of the church) through Israel/Jacob.

The Bible teaches us that God kills all the firstborn in Egypt, but of the children of Israel, God consecrates all firstborn taking back
the birthright of the firstborn as we see in Numbers 3:13: FOR ALL THE FIRSTBORN ARE MINE. On the day that I struck down all
the firstborn in the land of Egypt, I CONSECRATED FOR MY OWN ALL THE FIRSTBORN IN ISRAEL, both of man and of beast.
THEY SHALL BE MINE: I AM THE LORD.?

Then we see in Exodus 4 that God sends Moses back to Egypt to deliver God?s people out of slavery, and on the way, God wanted
to kill, either Moses or his firstborn (it is obscure). In either case, the reason was ?the circumcision of his firstborn son?. But his wife Zipporah
saves him by quickly circumcising her firstborn.
Exodus 4:21-26:
And the Lord said to Moses, ?When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power.
But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ?Thus says the Lord, ISRAEL IS MY FIRSTBORN
SON, and I say to you, ?LET MY SON GO that he may serve me.? If you refuse to let him go, behold, I WILL KILL YOUR FIRSTBORN SON.??
At a lodging place on the way the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and
touched Moses' feet with it and said, ?Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!? So He let him alone. It was then that she said,
?A BRIDEGROOM OF BLOOD," BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMCISION?. ַויִֶרף ִמֶמנוּ אָז אְָמָרה ֲחַתן ָדִמים ַלמוּלֹת׃ ?A BRIDEGROOM OF BLOOD," BECAUSE OF
THE CIRCUMCISION.

From the time of Moses onwards, the curse of the firstborn was broken, as it is written in Romans 5: ?death reigned from Adam to Moses?,
in other words, God?s gift of Life began from Moses.

Romans 5:14: Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses.

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This is just a short excerpt of course, but it is important to note that the order of blessing was reversed with Aharon and Moses. Aharon,
the firstborn, was the one that received the blessing of becoming the Cohen Hagadol succeded by his children, not Moses'.

The animosity between older and younger brothers was somehow brought to a new level of harmony

"A Song of Ascents. Of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is when brothers live in harmony! It is like fine oil on the head,
running down on the beard, running down Aaron?s beard over the collar of his robes.?"

The anointing of the firstborn fell again on a firstborn, God redeemed His firstborn just as He will redeem His people Israel in the coming times.

-C.