Hanukkah [Archive] - Bibles, Wheels, and Brains Forum

White

11-30-2007, 07:34 PM

Is Hanukkah in the Bible ?
Did Jesus participate in Hanukkah?
What is the background of Hanukkah?
Are you celebrating Hanukkah?
Should you be celebrating Hanukkah? :yo:

SHalom -Monique

Here are some of the answers from Jerry Golden - from The Golden Report:

Hanukkah :pray:
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2007
- written by jerry golden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kislev 24th until Tevet 2nd.

This year Hanukkah begins the night of December 4th. :thumb:

The Feast of Dedication' or Hanukkah, -- you will not find this Holiday in Lev. 23 with the seven Feasts of the Lord. But we find it in John 10:22 and other places as well. I think it may be necessary to do a little history here before going on; this will not be a history lesson, just a little background. :pop2:

The time was around 167 BC or, if you’re Jewish--BCE. Prior to this date a young ruler named Alexander the Great, ruled the entire ancient world. This period of time is referred to as 'the Hellenistic period' (Greeks). His untimely death caused a power struggle and four of his generals split up the kingdom. The one that ended up with Israel was Antiochus IV. This new Ruler of Israel commanded everyone to convert to Hellenism (Greek Metrology) and the Greek values that he held. Many did, even many of the Jews of the land because they found it to be a very civilized way of life.

But, there were those Jews who held close to the Torah and God’s way of worship and refused to embrace Hellenism. In fact, Antiochus gave the Jews an ultimatum, to either give up their distinctive customs, such as worshipping on the Sabbath (Saturday), Circumcision, and Kosher Laws, or die. :pray:

One of the first things Antiochus did was to desecrate the Holy Temple. He ordered the utensils, such as the Menorah, Altar, and Table to be defiled and torn down. Then to be certain that he had accomplished his job, he ordered a pig to be sacrificed on the holy altar. After doing all of that, he order that a Greek god Zeus be worshiped in the Temple. :mad:

When Antiochus heard that the people were murmuring and talking about revolt against him, he marched his troops to a town in the foothills called Modi’in. His plan was to erect a false god in the city and force the people to worship it. Modi’in was the home of a priest named Mattathias who had five sons. He and his sons revolted and killed the soldiers and began the revolt against this evil ruler. One of Mattathias’s sons was Judah, and he became the new leader and was quickly nicknamed 'Maccabee' (the Hammer in Hebrew). To bring this piece of history to a close we will just report that Maccabee and his men defeated the Greek armies and got rid of Antiochus.:D

The Maccabees now faced the task of restoring the Temple for Jewish worship to their Holy God. They cleansed the Temple and restored the furnishings. There was special attention given to the Menorah, for it symbolized the Light of God. They restored it and when they went to light it, they found there was a problem. This Menorah could only be used with special oil, and it took eight days to prepare such oil. They found enough of this special oil to burn only one day. To celebrate the victory of the battle fought for their religious liberty, they decided to light the Menorah anyway and allow the light of God to shine forth with its glory, even if but for a day. But God gave them a miracle, and the oil lasted eight days, until the new oil was made ready. So today we have the eight days of the Feast of Dedication 'Hanukkah.' It is also why you will see a nine branch Menorah instead of seven in most Jewish homes. It represents the miracle of the eight days the oil burned; the ninth branch (in the center) is the Shamash (Servant Lamp), which represents the Messiah. :thumb:

There are many customs and traditions that brings one closer to God and understanding of His greatness associated with this holiday, but I want to keep this as short as possible. Each night for eight nights a candle is lighted. The Shamash (the center) is always lit first, for it is from the Messiah that all light flows. It is then used to light each candle for the eight nights. Blessing is said and songs about Hanukkah sung. Gifts are given to the children each of the eight nights. During the lighting of the Shamash and the other candles are lit with the Shamash, the following blessings are said. I will try to write the Hebrew in English letters for you, I hope I do it correctly. :lol:

A little advice in lighting the candles, you place them in the Menorah from right to left, but you light them with the Shamash from left to right.

BARUKH ATAH ADONAI ELOHENU MELEKH HA-OLAM, ASHER KIDSHANU B’MITZVOHTAV L’HADLEEK NER, SHEL HANUKKAH. :pray::pray::pray:

Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has set us apart by your commandments and commanded us to kindle the light of Hanukkah.

So after lighting the candles and singing the Hanukkah songs, you set down for a festive meal, each night for eight nights.

So I will conclude with one Jewish recipe for 'Latkes' or to put it more simply 'Potato Pancakes.' ;)

Ingredients:

2 Eggs

3 Cups grated, drained potatoes

4 Tbls. Grated onion

¼ tsp. Pepper

2 Tbls. Cracker or matzah meal

½ cup oil or butter

Directions:

Beat the eggs and add the potatoes, onions, salt (to taste), pepper, and meal. Heat half the oil or butter in a frying pan and drop the potato mixture into it by tablespoon. Fry until browned on both sides. Keep pancakes hot until all are fried and add more oil or butter as required. Serve with Applesauce or sour cream. Serves 8.

Shalom, and Hag Same’ach, (Happy Holiday) Jerry Golden :yo:

Richard Amiel McGough

11-30-2007, 08:10 PM

Is Hanukkah in the Bible ?
Did Jesus participate in Hanukkah?
What is the background of Hanukkah?
Are you celebrating Hanukkah?
Should you be celebrating Hanukkah? :yo:

SHalom -Monique

Hi Monique,

Good questions. My answers:

Did Jesus participate in Hanukkah? ~ The Bible is silent on this, but there is no reason to think He did not, since He was a Jew and it was a memorial of a great Jewish victory celebrated yearly by His fellow Jews.

What is the background of Hanukkah? ~ That was answered well in you post.

Are you celebrating Hanukkah? ~ No.

Should you be celebrating Hanukkah? ~ No. But it seems fine if folks want to.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 03:58 PM

If RIchard did his job (I'm sure he did), we might have some more HANUKKAH info.
Shalom,
Monique
Uh-oh! Did I forget a "job" I was supposed to do? I don't remember promising any extra info on Hanukkah. I think the holiday is fine and is mentioned (in passing) in the Bible which confirms it's very old, but I don't have any ideas about why its important to us as Christians. Do you have any thoughts on that Monique?

Richard

White

12-04-2007, 04:14 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 04:21 PM

Hey Richard,
I sent you (Richard@Biblewheel.com) a Hanukkah quiz that I found on aish.com - It is quite interesting for the Hanukkah post - Actually, in my opinion, Hanukkah and Christmas go together. No Hanukkah, No Christmas. Both are considered Festivals of LIGHT and JESUS / Y'SHUA is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD. (John 1:14). And of course : JESUS IS THE NEW TEMPLE, but even more reason to celelbrate HANUKKAH which is actually a real holiday in celebration of the DEDICTION OF THE TEMPLE, while Christmas is the most beloved Holiday on the Christian Calendar, but now turned into a Commercial Feast rather than a SPIRITUAL SIGNPOST. But then all things are possible with GOD... even reconciling Hanukkah and Christmas. I put that into HIS HANDS.
Shalom and Happy Hanukkah
Monique
Hi Monique,

I got the email, but the link didn't work. Maybe if you posted the link here it would work. ... wait, I just tried it again and now it works ... go figure!

Thanks! That is a wonderful message. Jesus is truly the Light of the World.

Anyway, I got the message on the card, but I don't have the link to the "Hanukkah Quiz." Could you post it here?

Richard

White

12-04-2007, 04:23 PM

I found this article under Aish.com - Chanukkah

May Y'SHUA dance in Heaven knowing that HIS PEOPLE are still celebrating the Dedication of the Temple and the NEW TEMPLE - JESUS / Y'SHUA - is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD - thus Hanukkah and Christmas have their respective place in our world. May the Miracle happen as HE says in ROMANS 12:19:
VENGENCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY! SAYS THE LORD - and make that soon, please.

Shalom on this first day of Hanukkah, always thinking of Y'SHUA & His Plan
Monique

by Jonathan S. Tobin Chanukah is the last holiday into which we should be trying to shoehorn unrelated themes.

The holiday hijackers are at it again! First, Passover was transformed from an inspiring commemoration of the birth of the Jewish nation during the Exodus from Egypt into a catch-all festival that celebrates the rights of every afflicted minority and fashionable cause imaginable.

Now, it's Chanukah's turn.

This year, more groups are again seeking to use the old festival of lights to force feed whatever cultural or political theme appeals to them down the throats of the Jewish public.

Some who have jumped on the ecology bandwagon, now so pervasive in American culture, want to reinvent Chanukah as a "green" holiday, in which energy conservation and activism against global warming are foremost in our minds.

In fact, the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish Life and the Jewish Council for Public Affairs want us all to switch to more efficient "compact fluorescent light bulbs" -- though perhaps what they really want is for us to stop displaying those electric Chanukah menorahs in our windows altogether.

Saving Oil -- Get it?

The notion of using the idea of the Chanukah miracle of the one day's supply of oil in the holy Temple that lasted for eight days as a metaphor for conservation may be a stretch, but it is clever.

Not content to merely ride the ecology hobbyhorse this December, the JCPA also wants to use the season as a prop in its campaign to raise awareness of poverty. It is backing a "Candle of Righteousness" initiative that seeks to teach about the needs of the less fortunate by encouraging families to donate their holiday gifts to groups that help the poor.

That's a nice idea, especially since it can assist American Jewish parents in weaning their kids away from the idea of Chanukah as a Jewish Christmas in which the toys flow for eight days instead of one.

For all too many American Jews, Chanukah is merely a blue-tinsel copy of Christmas

But the good intentions and causes highlighted by some of these faux Chanukah campaigns notwithstanding, this trend is not something we should regard as entirely benign.

By making Chanukah more "relevant" to a host of contemporary issues, the promoters of these themes cannot only advance the causes they favor but also can, albeit indirectly, reintroduce their audience to the powerful message of their own traditions.

The truth is, for all too many American Jews, Chanukah is merely a blue-tinsel copy of Christmas or an androgynous celebration that can blend with it as the "Chrismukkah" cards and TV shows try to tell us.

Though the tension between the parochial Jewish aspect of our faith and its more universalist tendencies is as old as Judaism itself, Chanukah is not an empty metaphor into which non-Jewish narratives can be poured at will. It is, in fact, probably the last holiday into which we should be trying to shoehorn unrelated themes.

Far from being a Jewish version of "goodwill toward men" or any other trendy contemporary cause, the original story of Chanukah is about something very different: the refusal of Jews to bow down to the idols of the popular culture of their day, and to remain resolutely separate and faithful to their own traditions.

Even more to the point -- and so often completely eliminated from the stories we tell our kids and even ourselves -- Chanukah is the story of a particularly bloody Jewish civil war.

Wicked King Antiochus and his Syrian Greeks and their plans to force Jews to abandon the Torah and embrace Hellenism are surely the bad guys of the tale. But there's little doubt that for the original Maccabees, the real villains were the many Jews who embraced assimilation into the pervasive and seductive culture of the Greek world. It was these collaborators that Mattathias and his sons really wanted to wipe out -- and eventually they did just that.

Even though the descendants of the victors of this war were themselves a feckless and assimilated lot, whose misrule led eventually to domination of the country by Rome, the outcome of the original revolt has stood ever since as a warning against the dangers of discarding our faith for previously owned versions of others' beliefs.

That has to be a frightening message for an American Jewry which struggles to hold its own against the blandishments of the non-Jewish world.

The Original Theme

The message of the Maccabees is still strikingly pertinent to our current situation.

Yet for all of the changes in the Jewish world that have taken place in the last 2,200 years, the message of the Maccabees is still strikingly pertinent to our current situation.

Diaspora Jewry faces enormous challenges that threaten its future via assimilation, and Israel continues to remain under siege. So, maybe what Americans should be doing is using Chanukah to highlight something that might actually resonate with its true meaning: as a centerpiece of a campaign to expand and raise the quality of Jewish education in this country.

Going green may be trendier, but surely it would be more relevant to take up the fight of the Maccabees against forces that are destroying our traditions of learning. We could do this by finally rallying our communities to support the idea that day-school Jewish education ought to be available to more than just the rich among us. Similarly, we could increase our efforts to improve the quality of the synagogue schools for the Jewish kids who are sent there.

And perhaps instead of merely changing a few light bulbs, Chanukah would also be an apt time to try to get more American Jews to actually visit Israel, rather than just talk about it, a measure that is vitally important to the future of Jewish kids who may just be able to hold onto some shred of their identity.

It's no small irony that, while so many of us are working overtime to superimpose other causes, no matter how worthy, onto our traditions, many in the Arab and Islamic world are seeking to erase Jewish history altogether as part of their war against modern Israel. Such efforts may seem absurd to us, but when set against the knee-jerk universalism of much of Diaspora Jewry, their effectiveness should not be underestimated.

It may be that many of us are so alienated from our Jewish roots that secular holiday themes have more meaning to us than the Jewish ones. Yet rather than surrendering to this true December dilemma, this time of year should be a reminder that it takes the extraordinary efforts, as well as the faith of ordinary people, to keep the flame of Jewish civilization burning bright in each generation.

Our tradition teaches us that the victory of the Maccabees was ensured by faith. In order for that to happen, courageous individuals had to step forward. The same is true today. If they do, then perhaps American Jewry's leaders and organizations, who seem so eager to downplay the specific character of our holidays, will someday follow.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 04:32 PM

Hey Richard,
I sent you (Richard@Biblewheel.com) a Hanukkah quiz that I found on aish.com - It is quite interesting for the Hanukkah post - Actually, in my opinion, Hanukkah and Christmas go together. No Hanukkah, No Christmas. Both are considered Festivals of LIGHT and JESUS / Y'SHUA is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD. (John 1:14). And of course : JESUS IS THE NEW TEMPLE, but even more reason to celelbrate HANUKKAH which is actually a real holiday in celebration of the DEDICTION OF THE TEMPLE, while Christmas is the most beloved Holiday on the Christian Calendar, but now turned into a Commercial Feast rather than a SPIRITUAL SIGNPOST. But then all things are possible with GOD... even reconciling Hanukkah and Christmas. I put that into HIS HANDS.
Shalom and Happy Hanukkah
Monique
Hey Monique,

I found the quiz. It was pretty simple, just some basic facts about how the Jews celebrate the holiday.

I agree that Christmas is totally degraded into a fleshly Commercial Feast - that's for sure! And Hanukkah is significant in the history of the Jews back when they were still waiting for their Messiah. It was very important that they cleansed and rededicated the Temple after it was defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes because when their Messiah came the Glory of God once again dwelt in their Temple, until the day He declared "Your house is left to you desolate."

But praise God! His Glory now dwells eternally in the Living Temple of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord!

Richard

PS: What do you suppose a "reconciliation" of Hanukkah and Christmas would be like?

White

12-04-2007, 04:49 PM

White

12-04-2007, 04:52 PM

Hey RIchard,
Should we not move this to the Hanukkah post? And I'll pray about the Reconciliation aspect of the Hanukkah / Christmas feasts.
Shalom,
Monique

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 04:53 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 05:03 PM

Hey Richard,

I have a favor to ask you - would you please put your MENORAH that shows the symmetry of the BIBLE WHEEL MEDALLION on this site - also the tree of the Old and the New that spell out the words PRAISE. You might even find somebody who wants to buy your book, because of this Menorah/Hanukkah connection. Thanks my friend... and Happy Hanukkah! starting at sundown tonight and lasting 8 nights.
Shalom,
Monique
Sure Monique, here they are. I explain this one in The Sevenfold Light of God's Word (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/SevenfoldLight.asp):

http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/MenorahBible.jpg

And this one in The Bible as Menorah (http://www.biblewheel.com/Topics/menorah.asp):

http://www.biblewheel.com/images/Menorah_small.gif

And this one in the Capstone (http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Capstone.asp)article:

http://www.biblewheel.com/Art/ZechTrees_4b.jpg

God bless, and Merry Christmas!

Richard

White

12-04-2007, 05:21 PM

Hanukkah Links:

www.aish.com/quiz/takechanukahquiz.asp
Questions like
What does Chanukah mean?
The best place ot light the Menorah is?
History questions etc.

www.aish.com/chanukahbasics/chanukahbasicsdefault/The Ninth Candle.asp

The Shamash, meaning "servant" candle lights all the regular Chanukah candles. For Christians the shamash or Servant Candle is representing Jesus / Y'SHUA who said that HE came to SERVE. The Story explains that "The reason for this candle is that we are not allowed to use the regular Chanukah Lights for our own use; it is the job of the SHAMASH to provide us with light if we need it for some utilitarian purpose. (End of quote) But if we say that the Shamash - the Servant Candle - represents Y'SHUA - JESUS THE CHRIST - the whole festival makes perfect sense, because without the SERVANT CANDLE - Y"SHUA / JESUS - we would all be sitting in darkness.

Somehow, the Creator of Heaven and Earth will reconcile Judaism and Christianity, you shall surely see.

Happy Hanukkah
Shalom to Jerusalem & the Jewish People
Monique

White

12-04-2007, 05:27 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 06:19 PM

Hey Richard,

Calm down - of course they are "still HIS people", because they are JEWS - HIS race - and of course, again I clarify, that we are all HIS PEOPLE believing that JESUS /Y'SHUA is truly the WAY, the TRuth, the LIFE as explained in JOHN 14:6. And of course, I say it again, NO SALVATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING JESUS /Y'SHUA AS MESSIAH - I repeat : NO SALVATION WITHOUT JESUS or like my daughter put it a while ago :
NO JESUS, NO PEACE
KNOW JESUS, KNOW PEACE

SHalom with JESUS / Y'SHUA in the heart of all people, Jews, Christians and Muslims on this Hanukkah Festival - Amen

Monique

PS: Don't you love the color RED and bold, RIchard? God Loves all which does not mean that all love GOD. Happy Hanukkah!
Hello there my friend! :yo:

I hope you don't confuse passion for lack of peace. The two actually complement each other quite well. My soul is quiet and peaceful.

I agree RED BOLD CAPS can be effective, unless it is overused in which case it defeats its own purpose of drawing attention to specific words. It also is considered by most folks to be SHOUTING on the forum, which doesn't look very "peaceful."

Now as for the question of "HIS PEOPLE" you wrote: "of course they are "still HIS people", because they are JEWS - HIS race." I think that is a pretty serious confusion of what God means when He talks about "HIS PEOPLE" in the Bible. God does not have a "race." God does not deal with people in terms of their race. The only people that are now called "God's people" are BELIEVERS. It sounds just plain wrong to call unbelievers "God's People" because that contradicts the plain teaching of the Bible that says in Christ "there is no Jew or Gentile. What you suggest sounds like we need to rewrite the Bible to say "In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, except Christ Himself who is Jewish." I don't think so ...

Please consider the words written by Paul, the Apostle to the GENTILES:
Romans 9:23-26 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us [CHRISTIANS], whom he hath called, NOT of the Jews only, but also of the GENTILES? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them MY PEOPLE, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

God calls the Gentile Christians "MY PEOPLE." He never calls the unbelieving Jews "MY PEOPLE" in the New Testament. On the contrary, when His Jewish family members wanted to talk to Him, who did He say were His physical relatives?
Mark 3:31-35 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. 32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Jesus declared that He would deny His own MOTHER membership in His family if she did not do the will of God. How much proof do you need? The unbelieving Jews are have no special to being the "relatives" of Jesus. God does not consider the Jews "HIS PEOPLE" in any way different than any other group.

Another proof, consider again the words of Paul, the Apostle to the GENTILES:
2 Corinthians 6:11-18 O ye Corinthians [CHRISTIANS], our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. 12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. 13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be MY PEOPLE. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The idea that the Jews are "God's people" independent of their faithfulness to Him must be rejected as a false and carnal understanding of rhe Bible.
Do you see my point? When you declare that UNBELIEVERS are HIS PEOPLE you are denying the Gospel which declares that ALL PEOPLE of any RACE can become HIS PEOPLE by believing in JESUS CHRIST HIS SON. Why would you want to do that?

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

12-04-2007, 06:27 PM

Somehow, the Creator of Heaven and Earth will reconcile Judaism and Christianity, you shall surely see.

Happy Hanukkah
Shalom to Jerusalem & the Jewish People
Monique
I don't understand what you mean. What is there to reconcile? The Jews reject Jesus as Messiah, the Christians accept Jesus as Messiah. Exactly what is there to reconcile?

Richard

sula

12-04-2007, 06:53 PM

This article is the first of 8 that will be available at this website. I also am inclined to think this might help to add to the concept of combining Hanukkah and Christmas since both focus on the "Light of the World".

VIRTUAL CHANUKAH
POSTED 04 DECEMBER, 2004

Celebrating Chanukah Today

by Margaret McKee Huey
margaret@hueyhouse.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since 1996, our family has been in a state of transition concerning Winter holiday celebrations. As Christians, we were raised to celebrate and observe Christmas, thinking that it was indeed a Biblical holy day. Was not the account of the birth of the Messiah recorded for us in Luke 2? Was not the event so exciting that a multitude of angels appeared to the shepherds in Bethlehem to announce to them that the Messiah of Israel had been born? However, how many of our past Christmas celebrations have only had the simplicity of that wonderful message of, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:10-11)? Most of us who celebrated Christmas did not hold to this simplicity of observance. Instead, the Christmas we remember is full of traditional practices that have absolutely nothing to do with the event that the angels proclaimed happened in Bethlehem in the Land of Israel. And, it is safe to say, that it is these traditional practices that so many of us have been challenged to stop.

Are the events recorded in Luke 2 Biblical? Absolutely! May we remember and commemorate the birth of the Messiah and its proclamation by the angelic host? Most certainly! But we are not to continue to embrace the non-Biblical practices that have been handed down to us in ignorance by our forefathers. Why were they handed down to us in the first place, we must ask? Simply put, the answer for those of us who are not Jewish, is that our ancestors were not grounded in the ways of the Torah. They simply did not know any better. They did not know that we were not to mix the holy with the profane, and were largely ignorant surrounding the Jewish background of the Scriptures. But for those of us who have been awakened and have embraced a Messianic walk with the Lord, we can no longer have this excuse.

Personal Family Testimony

For our family, the walk of faith that has lead us to become Messianic has caused us to actively change three areas in our faith observance that are different from our Church upbringing. First, we now observe a Shabbat rest every week, instead of Sunday Church. Second, we now eat Biblically kosher, instead of anything that our palate desires. And third, we now observe the Biblical appointed times that are listed in Leviticus 23, instead of the Church holidays that were passed down from Catholicism to Protestantism. Has this transition been an easy one? No, family traditions are hard to change. But I am happy to say that within our own small family, we have been able to adopt the Biblical practices and drop the non-Biblical ones “fairly” easily. The main reasons that the changes have not been too hard are two-fold. First, we earnestly desire to be as Biblical as possible and to continue down that path that the Reformers did before us. Not all of them, unfortunately, received the full revelation on the Torah, the appointed times, Shabbat, the dietary laws, and the common heritage we share with Judaism. And second, we desire as a family to walk and to do and to be like our Messiah Yeshua in all things, as much as possible.

I can say that in the continual transformation that our family has been through to become as Biblical as possible, we have been able to put away our Christmas observance. Instead, we celebrate Chanukah. Of course, as stated in many of the preceding articles in this booklet, we are aware that Chanukah is not listed in Leviticus 23. It is considered an “extra-Biblical” observance. With that in mind, some in the Messianic community believe they have the liberty not to observe it. Our family has come to the conclusion that to observe Chanukah is to do another thing that Yeshua did. That alone is enough to observe the feast! In John 10:22-23, the following is recorded: “Then came Hanukkah in Yerushalayim. It was winter, and Yeshua was walking around inside the Temple area, in Shlomo's Colonnade” (CJB). How did I never see that Yeshua was in Jerusalem for Chanukah all those years that I was in the Church? The answer is so simple and one that we as Messianics see over and over again. The English translation for Chanukah is the “Feast of Dedication.” It never occurred to me to even find out what that was. Remember, in the Church I had been taught that the “Jewish holidays” were not for us. Even if I had seen the word “Chanukah,” it still would not have caused me to want to observe it.

Some people downplay Yeshua’s celebration of Chanukah by saying that “just because Yeshua was there at this feast, it doesn’t mean He was observing it since He was only on the portico.” Others put down the idea of our remembering the miracle of the oil for eight days. Consider the words of the First Century historian Josephus, who records the law and practice that Judah Maccabee instituted for Chanukah that was in place during the lifetime of Yeshua:

“Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honoured God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights” (Antiquities of the Jews 12.324-325).[1]

Family Observance

Our family has come to that place in our lives where memories of Christmas are just that—memories. We have extended family and friends who do not understand why we no longer have a Christmas tree, mistletoe, Santa Claus, reindeer, holiday wreathes, tinsel, Christmas stockings, etc, etc. In fact, they never understood why we did not have Santa Claus when we still celebrated Christmas! As much as I love my extended family and friends, I love my Savior more. It is He whom I wish to please! So, with that in mind, I want to share with you just a bit of our family celebration of Chanukah.

The wonderful thing about the Biblical holidays it that our Heavenly Father wants us to remember the great events of Ancient Israel by celebrating them! Chanukah has so many wonderful truths that we can celebrate. When Yeshua observed Chanukah, He did so in the very Temple that had been cleansed and rededicated by the Maccabees. As Josephus states, it was a time of great merriment and delight for the Jewish people. We, like they, can remember with great joy that the Temple had been restored, so that our Messiah could obey the commandments that He needed to perform there, as the Redeemer of Israel. We can rejoice in the rededication of the Temple and to then remember to rededicate our own “Temple” (1 Corinthians 6:18-20). We can light the candles of a chanukia, a nine-branched menorah, starting on the 25th of Kislev for eight days to remember the miracle of the oil. We can say the blessings over our meals and we can delight in being part of the household of faith. We can delight in joining our Jewish brothers by celebrating Chanukah with them.

Our family keeps a very simple holiday observance in mind. First, to our extended family and friends, we still send out holiday greetings, but not Christmas cards. Second, we still send holiday gifts, but not Christmas presents. And third, we can still invite them to a holiday meal, but not Christmas dinner. When our family and friends send us Christmas cards, we receive them as holiday greetings. When they send us Christmas presents, we receive them as holiday gifts. When they invite us to eat with them during Christmas, we go and enjoy the fellowship and love. They believe that they are reaching out to us at this time of year, because this is how they celebrate the birth of the Messiah. We receive their holiday tokens to us with the same love for the Messiah that they have.

As to our own observance in our home, that too is kept simple. We have always loved to center celebrations around the dinner table. Each night of Chanukah, we will have a special dinner, and say the prayers and light the appropriate candles on the chanukia. My husband or my son might read part of the account from the Books of the Maccabees. Traditional foods that have been cooked in oil are served to remind us of the miracle of the oil. When one of the nights is on Shabbat, we will celebrate it with our congregational family. All in all, we use the special days to delight in the Lord and in His goodness to us. Gifts can be given and exchanged during the holiday season, either one each night, or all at once. Songs can be sung at the table. A general feeling of family and fellowship should permeate each night. The love of the Messiah should be strongly felt in each home and the promise of His coming.

As to decorating one’s house, there are many things that can be done. We like to display all of our menorahs as decorations. We use small white lights in different areas of our house. The traditional colors for Chanukah are blue and white. These colors can be introduced around your home. In our home, that is very easy, because it already is our basic color scheme.

Lights, candles and festive color that now go with the wonderful meals that are planned for eight different nights! These are the basic ingredients for a wonderful time with your family, when you can all reflect on the Messiah, who is the Light of the World. What could be easier? It is so simple, and yet so rich in history and meaning. Our family can truly say that it is not missing out on anything during the holiday season!

Loving Each Other

If our extended family or friends question why we do not celebrate Christmas anymore, we make sure to let them know that even though we have stopped practicing non-Biblical traditions that Christmas now represents—we still very much believe in the Biblical account of the birth of Yeshua as it is recorded in Luke 2. We believe that He was probably conceived by the Holy Spirit during the Chanukah season and born nine months later during the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot). Although they usually do not understand what we are sharing, our Christian family and friends will certainly still see that we have not stopped believing in the Messiah. Consider the fact that, for many people, when you announce that you “don’t believe in Christmas because of all the pagan practices that have been added to the event,” they truly do not understand what you mean. They often think you do not believe in the virgin birth or in the Messiah anymore!

How do we deal with our extended family and friends who still do not understand why we are not celebrating Christmas like they are? Our family believes that this is a very special time of year! It is a time when people generally and genuinely want to reach out to others in the love of the Messiah. As Messianics, how can we act that such behavior is wrong? We cannot! We, who are to walk as Messiah Yeshua walked, must reach out to others in love at this time of year more than ever. Yeshua told us that people would know that we are His disciples by the love that we have for one another. We need to love our family and friends in such a way during the holidays that they will be drawn to us, and not repelled. For, dear friends, it is through our unconditional love for them that one day they will want to know what we know about walking like the Messiah. One day they will want to know why we have put aside the celebration of Christmas and are observing Chanukah. One day they will want to know why we love to walk as Yeshua walked. One day they will want to know why we have become thoroughly Messianic. So, let us reach out in love and show them the better way.

Let us enjoy this Winter holiday time within our households and rejoice in the history and drama of Chanukah! And in all things let us reflect on Yeshua our Messiah, who is the Light of the World.

Have a blessed holiday season!

NOTES

[1] Flavius Josephus: The Works of Josephus: Complete and Unabridged, trans. William Whiston (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1987), 328.

White

12-05-2007, 01:20 PM

I don't understand what you mean. What is there to reconcile? The Jews reject Jesus as Messiah, the Christians accept Jesus as Messiah. Exactly what is there to reconcile? :confused2:

Richard

Hi Richard,

You did it all with the Menorah on your Post - You connected the OLD & the NEW - reconciliation in full bloom. :thumb:

Why would GOD ALMIGHTY choose the menorah - which was given to Moses and then forget about it. It's part of Jewish life and you illustrate the connection with the Jewish People so well in your Menorah in your post above. God has a plan for all people but HE chose the Jewish People as his own. And therefore, let us never forget that HE IS IN CONTROL and HE is certainly able to reconcile all things to HIMSELF. Nothing is impossible with GOD. So let us hang unto HIM in all things and HE will straighten out our path.
:yo:
I have read in some ancient writings that Jesus was conceived on Hanukkah
and was born during the Feast of Tabernacle. That would be a great connection between Hanukkah & Christmas, both involving the beginning or start of life and the Birth of a child - in this case : JESUS / Y'SHUS, Son of the Living God.

Shalom, and Happy Hanukkah - 2nd night :pray::pray::pray:
Monique

White

12-05-2007, 01:27 PM

Richard wrote:
[/INDENT]The idea that the Jews are "God's people" independent of their faithfulness to Him must be rejected as a false and carnal understanding of the Bible.
Do you see my point? When you declare that UNBELIEVERS are HIS PEOPLE you are denying the Gospel which declares that ALL PEOPLE of any RACE can become HIS PEOPLE by believing in JESUS CHRIST HIS SON. Why would you want to do that? Richard[/QUOTE]

Hey Richard,

Read again what I wrote : John 14:6 : I am the way, the truth and the life, NO one comes to the Father but by ME (Jesus/Y'shua). Nowhere am I denying Christ - in the contrary, I have witnessed to them in person many times, starting at HANUKKAH in 1998 at their Hanukkah Dinner, at Kenesseth Israel Congregation, Orthodox Jewish Synagogue. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER denied Christ when I witnessed to the Jewish People (or any other people) I leave that up to Hagee...

Shalom, my brother, keep up the good work in defending all attacks against the TRUE and HOLY NAME of JESUS / Y'SHUA, my LORD & SAVIOR, always!

Happy Hanukkah :pray::thumb::pray:
Shalom
Monique

sula

12-05-2007, 01:36 PM

Hey there White, what a beautiful post about the Menorah, the reconciliation between Jew/Gentile......Judah/Ephriam. BRILLIANT!!!! PTL Also, I too have read about the possibility of Jesus being conceived on Hanukkah and being born during the Feast of Tabernacle. Talk about prophetic. Hashem is speaking to HIS people....and drawing them in.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-05-2007, 01:39 PM

Hi Richard,

You did it all with the Menorah on your Post - You connected the OLD & the NEW - reconciliation in full bloom. :thumb:
Amen to that sister! I couldn't agree more. :sunny:

Why would GOD ALMIGHTY choose the menorah - which was given to Moses and then forget about it.

He would never do that! He gave it as part of His Christian Revelation which began with the Jews and now is blossomed into the Christian Church that contians Jews and Gentiles, men and woman, everyone as ONE in Christ, Amen!

It's part of Jewish life and you illustrate the connection with the Jewish People so well in your Menorah in your post above.
It is part of the Christian life - the first Christians were Jews. And there is no difference now between Jews or Gentiles.

God has a plan for all people but HE chose the Jewish People as his own.
Correct ... He chose them to fulfill a purpose in His plan to fulfill His Promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many Gentiles. They fufilled that purpose, and now can join the party in Christ or remain cut off as a withered branch. I pray (with you!) that they will see the light of their Messiah.

And therefore, let us never forget that HE IS IN CONTROL and HE is certainly able to reconcile all things to HIMSELF. Nothing is impossible with GOD. So let us hang unto HIM in all things and HE will straighten out our path.

Actually, He already did that! He has reconciled (past tense) all things in Christ Jesus, though we are still "in progress" as His Kingdom covers the world:

Colossians 1:19-22 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 ¶ And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

:yo:
I have read in some ancient writings that Jesus was conceived on Hanukkah
and was born during the Feast of Tabernacle. That would be a great connection between Hanukkah & Christmas, both involving the beginning or start of life and the Birth of a child - in this case : JESUS / Y'SHUS, Son of the Living God.

Shalom, and Happy Hanukkah - 2nd night :pray::pray::pray:
Monique
Yeah, I've heard that somewhere too. Its kinda interesting, but we won't know the truth till we get to heaven and ask Him.

God bless you sister. Thanks for the understanidng post.

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

12-05-2007, 01:43 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-05-2007, 02:01 PM

The idea that the Jews are "God's people" independent of their faithfulness to Him must be rejected as a false and carnal understanding of the Bible.
Do you see my point? When you declare that UNBELIEVERS are HIS PEOPLE you are denying the Gospel which declares that ALL PEOPLE of any RACE can become HIS PEOPLE by believing in JESUS CHRIST HIS SON. Why would you want to do that? Richard

Hey Richard,

Read again what I wrote : John 14:6 : I am the way, the truth and the life, NO one comes to the Father but by ME (Jesus/Y'shua). Nowhere am I denying Christ - in the contrary, I have witnessed to them in person many times, starting at HANUKKAH in 1998 at their Hanukkah Dinner, at Kenesseth Israel Congregation, Orthodox Jewish Synagogue. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER denied Christ when I witnessed to the Jewish People (or any other people) I leave that up to Hagee...

Hello my friend, :yo:

I really hope we can get this simple little thing cleared up. There is no reason for us to be squabbling about something I never said nor intended to imply. I know you love Jesus and do not deny Him!

Please read my words carefully. I said "The idea that the Jews are "God's people" independent of their faithfulness to Him must be rejected as a false and carnal understanding of the Bible. "

Do you see that little word in bold red? I never said that YOU as a person would ever deny Christ! I never said that. Again, let me repeat, I never said that. Please try to understand what I did say. I said that the IDEA or TEACHING that the Jews are "God's People" independent of their faith in Christ "must be rejected as a false." Do you see that? I never said you were denying Christ. I said the teaching that ANYBODY could be considered "God's People" apart from faith in Christ is wrong.

I think we should seek to get over this silly problem with words. I am very careful about what I say, and I really mean what I say. So when I say that we shouldn't go around calling unbelievers "God's People" I mean it. But that doesn't mean that you can't love the Jewish culture and people and minister to them and pray that they see the light and pray that Christians lose whatever antisemitism they may have and even keep shabbat if that's what your heart desires! I never opposed any of that! I only oppose things that really strike a nerve, like saying that Christans should keep the OT law, or that unblelivers are "God's People."

Shalom, my brother, keep up the good work in defending all attacks against the TRUE and HOLY NAME of JESUS / Y'SHUA, my LORD & SAVIOR, always!

Happy Hanukkah :pray::thumb::pray:
Shalom
Monique
And shalom to you my sister and minister to the Jews for whom all true Christians pray that they might know their Redeemer!

Richard

PS: Thanks for taking the effort to talk to me and to write such great post. I pray our God continues to bless you as you serve in His Kingdom!

eliyahu

12-05-2007, 07:30 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-05-2007, 08:01 PM

The Jewish people are Biblically God's "chosen" people. That does not mean that being Jewish means automatic salvation any more than any gentile. Everything that God has offered to people like salvation, etc, has been through the Jews. the new covenant itself is with "Israel." Why the jealousy and personal offense? The wonder is that gentiles are freely offered salvation through Israel's Messiah by faith alone and not conversion to judaism.
Hello Eliyahu,

Welcome to our forum! :welcome:

I am really glad you have chosen to comment on this issue. The more it is talked about, the better chance we will have to come to a proper biblical understanding.

I know some of the conversation has seemed a little "emotional" at times, but I don't think there is any "jealousy" and the only "personal offense" that has happened seems to be based on simple misunderstandings.

As for your statement that "The Jewish people are Biblically God's "chosen" people" that is as far as it goes. Indeed, the Lord declared that He chose them in many verses, perhaps the most famous being this:
Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Folks can dispute whether God was speaking of all the physical children of Israel or only those who believed. But that is not a question any more now that Christ has come and sealed the New Covenant in His blood. God now declares that only those who believe in Him are counted as "seed." He declares Chirstians to be His "chosen people":
1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye [Christians] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The people of God are now defined soley as those who believe in Jesus Christ. But don't be confused. God didn't quit the Jews and start up with the Christian! Indeed, all the first Christians were true Jews who believed in YHVH. The unbelieving Jews were broken off the Olive Tree, and believing Gentiles were grafted in. God's people are defined as all who are in the Olive Tree. The carnal unbelieving children of Abraham are explictly stated to be "children of the flesh" and "not the children of God." (Romans 9:6-8).

I would be delighted to discuss this with you if you disagree with validity of my statements.

Richard

sula

12-05-2007, 10:17 PM

VIRTUAL CHANUKAH
POSTED 05 DECEMBER, 2007

Chanukah for the Two Houses of Israel

by J.K. McKee
editor@tnnonline.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The subject of what Messianic Believers are to be doing for the Winter holiday season can be very controversial. On the one hand, Messianics cannot, and should not, celebrate Christmas because it is non-Biblical and was created to be a replacement for the Biblical appointments of Leviticus 23. On the other hand, should Messianic Believers celebrate Chanukah, or the Feast of Dedication? Within the emerging Two-House Messianic community, as it is often described, there is debate over whether or not we should celebrate Chanukah. Primarily the debate surrounds the fact that oftentimes the celebration of Chanukah can become a replacement for Christmas, and the fact that Chanukah is not a Biblically mandated holiday.

If there is anything we must consider per this debate it is two things: (1) We must have an attitude that brings glory to our Heavenly Father, and (2) our actions must foster unity and understanding between Jewish and non-Jewish Believers. Sadly, like many of the issues that we face, the subject of whether or not we should celebrate Chanukah has two extremes: there are those who vehemently oppose its observance, and perhaps might even consider it a 'gross Jewish error.' And, there are those who go overboard in encouraging its celebration, in an effort to prove that they are 'better' than Christians who celebrate Christmas in ignorance. Neither one of these positions is right.

In this article, we examine the historical origins of the celebration known as Chanukah, Chanukah and Yeshua, and Chanukah as a special time for those who believe in the end-time restoration of all Israel.

The Prophecies of Daniel and the Rise of Antiochus

Before we can examine the issues pertaining to the celebration of Chanukah, we must first understand the historical origins of it, which actually precede the time of the Maccabees in Second Century B.C.E. Israel, going back much further to the exile of the Southern Kingdom to Babylon in the 500’s B.C.E. While in Babylon, the Prophet Daniel was shown visions of the future, which included both the immediate future concerning his time as Babylon would be overtaken by Persia, as well as the far distant future. One of these prophecies included the vision of the four beasts, representative of the empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome (and revived Rome in the end-times). The third kingdom, Greece (Heb. Yavan, !wy), would arise and would conquer the Persians:

'The he-goat, the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between its eyes is its first king' (Daniel 8:21).

Most expositors are agreed that this prophecy is a reference to Alexander the Great, the Macedonian king whose father Philip II had conquered the Greek Peloponnesus. Alexander continued his father’s legacy by extending his military campaign into Asia Minor, Egypt, Persia, and all the way into India. Alexander, however, died at the age of 33 in 323 B.C.E. in Babylon. After his death, his empire was divided among his four generals who took control of Macedonia, the Greek Peloponnesus, Egypt, and Syria. It is not surprising to know that ancient history tells us that these four kingdoms became rivals and often fought among themselves:

'As for the broken one, in whose place four arose, four kingdoms will arise from one nation, but lacking its strength' (Daniel 8:22).

A notable part of Alexander’s conquering of the ancient world was not only the extension of his rule, but also the exposure of the Greek language and culture into foreign areas. Macedonia itself, not considered to be Greek by the Greeks, had been Hellenized during the childhood of Alexander, who was tutored by Aristotle. Part of Philip’s, and later Alexander’s, military campaign, was to spread the way of life that had made Macedonia the power that it was. But, not everyone in the ancient world desired to be Hellenized or forced to become like the Greeks.

Prior to Alexander the Great, the Southern Kingdom of Judah returned from their Babylonian exile to the Land of Israel. Most of the Northern Kingdom of Israel/Ephraim had been dispersed into the ancient world, although some maintained their Israelite heritage and became assimilated into the Southern Kingdom. Israel was a vassal state of the Persian Empire, but later became engulfed in Alexander’s empire and became a province of Syria. Greek culture was slowly influencing the Jews, with many Jews abandoning the Torah and its commandments in favor of Greek customs and philosophies. It became increasingly more difficult for the Jews to maintain a Torah-obedient lifestyle with the policies of the Syrian Greeks.

Things got out of control when Antiochus IV of the Selucid dynasty came to power. He was called Epiphanes or 'God manifest.' Antiochus made it illegal for the Jews to practice the Torah, perform circumcision, follow the kosher laws, and worship in the Temple. He moved his troops into Jerusalem and desecrated the Temple by sacrificing a pig and erecting a statue to the god Zeus in it. This, and the subsequent events following, are recorded in the Apocrypha in the Books of 1-4 Maccabees:

'And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the cities of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and feasts, to defile the sanctuary and the priests, to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and unclean animals, and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, so that they should forget the law and change all the ordinances. And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die' (1 Maccabees 1:44-50).

Many commentators are generally agreed that Antiochus was an ambitious man, and he was making a political power play, demonstrating that he was more powerful than the Ptolemic Greeks of Egypt. 1 Maccabees 1:16-20 indicates that after defeating Ptolemy, he sought to subdue the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, solidifying his rule:

'When Antiochus saw that his kingdom was established, he determined to become king of the land of Egypt, that he might reign over both kingdoms. So he invaded Egypt with a strong force, with chariots and elephants and cavalry and with a large fleet. He engaged Ptolemy king of Egypt in battle, and Ptolemy turned and fled before him, and many were wounded and fell. And they captured the fortified cities in the land of Egypt, and he plundered the land of Egypt. After subduing Egypt, Antiochus returned in the one hundred and forty-third year. He went up against Israel and came to Jerusalem with a strong force' (1 Maccabees 1:16-18).

The Maccabbean Era

As you can imagine, the actions of Antiochus were not well received by the majority population of the Land of Israel. Lead by the retired priest Mattathias, many Jews opposed the oppression of the Syrian Greek invaders and sought to see them pushed out of the Land of Israel. Many of the Jews, fearing for their lives, succumbed to not following the Torah and would not follow the rite of circumcision or eat kosher. Many of them adopted Greek religion and wanted to 'blend in.'

As Antiochus’ army entered into the town of Modin, where Mattathias and his five sons were living, they tried to persuade them to forsake the Law of Moses and sacrifice to the Greek’s gods. Mattathias refused to give into their demands and proclaimed his loyalty to the God of Israel and to His Instructions:

'But Mattathias answered and said in a loud voice: ‘Even if all the nations that live under the rule of the king obey him, and have chosen to do his commandments, departing each one from the religion of his fathers, yet I and my sons and my brothers will live by the covenant of our fathers. Far be it from us to desert the law and the ordinances. We will not obey the king’s words by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left’' (1 Maccabees 2:19-22).

Mattathias then declares that any Jew succumbing to these demands was a traitor to the covenants and to the God of Israel, and he calls all to join him in a revolt:

'When he had finished speaking these words, a Jew came forward in the sight of all to offer sacrifice upon the altar in Modein, according to the king's command. When Mattathias saw it, he burned with zeal and his heart was stirred. He gave vent to righteous anger; he ran and killed him upon the altar' (1 Maccabees 2:23-24).

He then began a military revolt against the Syrian Greeks, killing those who opposed him. 1 Maccabees 2:26-27 describes his zeal like that of Phinehas in the wilderness:

'Thus he burned with zeal for the law, as Phinehas did against Zimri the son of Salu. Then Mattathias cried out in the city with a loud voice, saying: ‘Let every one who is zealous for the law and supports the covenant come out with me!’'

Mattathias would not live through his campaign to see the final victory over the Syrian Greek oppressors. The mantle would pass onto his son, Judas Maccabeus, who would lead the Jews in a revolt against the Seleucids that would take around three years. He was nicknamed 'Maccabee' which means 'hammer.' During this time, a guerilla-type warfare was carried out against the Syrian Greeks, while the Jews sought allies in the Egyptian Greeks or Ptolemies, the Spartans, and the Romans. Their military challenges and triumphs are discussed in the Apocryphal Books of 1-4 Maccabees.

The rise of Antiochus Epiphanes and the events of the Maccabbean Era were prophesied by Daniel after speaking about the division of Alexander’s kingdom into four regions. Daniel rightly prophesied that Antiochus would arise to expand his own kingdom, would come against the faithful ones, but would not die in battle:

'In the latter period of their rule, when the transgressors have run their course, a king will arise, insolent and skilled in intrigue. His power will be mighty, but not by his own power, and he will destroy to an extraordinary degree and prosper and perform his will; he will destroy mighty men and the holy people. And through his shrewdness he will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; and he will magnify himself in his heart, and he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human agency' (Daniel 8:23-25).

Antiochus was unable to stand against the Jews, many of whom faithfully resisted any attempt to Hellenize them, namely getting them to reject the Torah, circumcision, kosher eating, and the Temple service, and instead practice Greek religion. Antiochus believed himself to be a god, but later wasted away and died not in battle, but from a flesh-eating disease:

'But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him an incurable and unseen blow. As soon as he ceased speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels for which there was no relief and with sharp internal tortures—and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to hasten the journey. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. Thus he who had just been thinking that he could command the waves of the sea, in his superhuman arrogance, and imagining that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. And so the ungodly man's body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of his stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay' (2 Maccabees 9:5-9).

The Miracle of the Oil

The Maccabees drove the Seleucids out of the Land of Israel in the month of Kislev 165 B.C.E., which is in about the month of December. They had the task of cleaning up the mess that the Seleucids had left, notably in the city of Jerusalem and in the Temple complex. Antiochus’ forces had completely ransacked the Temple and made it into a haven of idolatry. The Temple needed to be cleansed of its defilement and restored to its previous position so proper sacrifices could once again be performed. Of all of the items of Temple furniture that had to be cleansed and rededicated, one of the most important was the great lampstand or menorah (hrAnm). The menorah required special consecrated oil in order to be lit.

As many of you are no doubt aware, modern observance of Chanukah is commemorated by the lighting of a chanukia, or a special nine-branched menorah. This is different from the menorah that was in the Temple that had seven branches. It is used because when the Temple was rededicated there was only enough oil to be lit for one day. However, the oil remained lit for eight days, allowing time for newly consecrated oil to be produced. Today a ninth candle or servant candle is used to light the eight candles of the chanukia to commemorate the eight days the menorah was lit. Chanukah (hKnx), meaning 'dedication,' became the nation’s commemoration of this miracle. The miracle of the eight days of oil is spoken of in the Talmud:

'What is [the reason of] Hanukkah? For our Rabbis taught: On the twenty-fifth of Kislew [commence] the days of Hanukkah, which are eight on which a lamentation for the dead and fasting are forbidden. For when the Greeks entered the Temple, they defiled all the oils therein, and when the Hasmonean dynasty prevailed against and defeated them, they made search and found only one cruse of oil which lay with the seal of the High Priest, but which contained sufficient for one day’s lighting only; yet a miracle was wrought therein and they lit [the lamp] therewith for eight days. The following year these [days] were appointed a Festival with [the recital of] Hallel and thanksgiving' (b.Shabbat 21b).[1]

What would have happened if the Maccabees had not stood up to Antiochus and his armies? Not only would they have succeeded in wiping out the Jewish people, either through military defeat or cultural assimilation, but Israel, in any form, would not have existed to give rise to Messiah Yeshua. We have ample reasons to celebrate Chanukah as Believers in Yeshua today, the foremost of which being that if the miracle of Chanukah had not taken place, there would be no miracle of Yeshua!

Chanukah and Yeshua

But what about Yeshua the Messiah? As Chanukah was established as a celebration in the mid-Second Century B.C.E., did our Lord and Savior celebrate it?

John 10:22 tells us 'Then came Hanukkah in Yerushalayim. It was winter' (CJB). The Greek source text actually uses the word egkainia (egkainia), which in most Bibles is rendered as the 'Feast of Dedication.' BDAG defines it clearly as 'festival of rededication…known also as Hanukkah and the Feast of Lights, beg. the 25th of Chislev (roughly=November-December) to commemorate the purification of the temple by Judas Maccabaeus on that date in 165 B.C.'[2] So what was Yeshua doing in Jerusalem during this time?

'[I]t was winter, and Yeshua was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, ‘How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Messiah, tell us plainly.’ Yeshua answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’ The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him’' (John 10:23-31).

Yeshua was present in Jerusalem during Chanukah. We may assume by His presence in the holy city that He was celebrating whatever was commemorated at that time. Notice that during Chanukah some Jews ask Him if He was the Messiah. Yeshua tells them that He has already demonstrated His Messiahship to them by His actions and that they do not believe. The quintessential statement made here is 'I and the Father are one.' The Hebrew word for 'one' used frequently in the Tanach is echad (dxa), and its Greek equivalent is heis (eiß). Echad is used in the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4: 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!' In proclaiming that He and the Father are one, Yeshua was proclaiming Himself to be Divine and to be of the same substance as God. By doing so, the Jews present wanted to stone Him as they believed He was committing blasphemy.

Celebrating Chanukah and understanding that Yeshua was in Jerusalem at this time is very important. It is especially important when we understand what Yeshua was doing and the questions that He was asked regarding His mission.

To be continued in next post

sula

12-05-2007, 10:18 PM

Cont' from previous post:

Chanukah and Scattered Ephraim

But what about Chanukah and the scattered House of Israel/Ephraim? The events surrounding the Maccabees and the rededication of the Temple in the Second Century B.C.E. primarily pertain to the Jewish people. The Northern Kingdom of Israel/Ephraim had been well scattered into the nations at least 400 years prior to the events of the Maccabees. Aside from a few Northern Kingdom Israelites who had joined themselves to the Southern Kingdom of Judah, there were no Northern Kingdom Israelites involved with the Maccabbean revolt or any of these events. Or were there?

The reason that there are no Northern Kingdom Israelites specifically mentioned in the account of the Maccabees has many non-Jewish Believers in the Two-House community wondering if the celebration of Chanukah is justified. This is because, believing themselves to possibly be of scattered Israel/Ephraim, they feel left out, as the focus on Chanukah is largely on the Jewish people. Others, because of Jewish pride that can possibly evidence itself in some, are offended at Chanukah and want nothing to do with it.

Neither attitude is fostering unity in the Messianic community today. The Jewish people have been the only faithful torchbearer of being recognizable Israel since the dispersion of the Northern Kingdom of Israel/Ephraim in 722-721 B.C.E. by Assyria. Our Jewish brethren have experienced several dispersions, persecutions, excommunications, forced relocations, pogroms, and a Holocaust. Yet, because of the tenacity of the Maccabees, and many other figures in Jewish history, they have remained faithful to the Torah and to the oracles of God. Non-Jewish Believers in the Messianic community today should be very thankful to rejoice in these Jewish triumphs—because they are all our triumphs. Furthermore, if we examine the account of the Maccabees, we will find that there were indeed a few scattered Northern Kingdom Israelites involved in the events.

Consider the fact that in the Biblical record, it is attested by the Jewish religious leaders that there were scattered Israelites among the Greeks: 'The Jews then said to one another, ‘Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He?’' (John 7:35). Certainly, as we know that the seed of scattered Israel/Ephraim would be 'a multitude of nations' (Genesis 48:19), we cannot limit these nations to an exclusive nationality. They were to become engulfed among the Gentiles and be indistinguishable from the Gentiles. However, the Greeks are pointed out by name as being one of those nationalities. It is only to be expected, as when the Northern Kingdom was under siege, many of those people no doubt left the Land of Israel to avoid capture. One of the first places they could have escaped to would have been to territory immediately north, i.e., Asia Minor and the Greek Peloponnesus. An argument could be made that these people, although mostly rebellious against the Torah and the ways of the Lord, brought godly wisdom with them that influenced classical Greece of the Sixth-Fifth Centuries B.C.E., which emerged approximately 100 years following the conquering of the Northern Kingdom.

Another important reference occurs in 1 Maccabees 12:6, 19-21. The high priest Jonathan is trying to secure the support of the Spartans, one of the dominant Greek city-states and a rival of the Seleucids, the Syrian Greeks: 'Jonathan the high priest, the senate of the nation, the priests, and the rest of the Jewish people to their brethren the Spartans, greeting…This is a copy of the letter which they sent to Onias: ‘Arius, king of the Spartans, to Onias the high priest, greeting. It has been found in writing concerning the Spartans and the Jews that they are brethren and are of the family of Abraham’' (cf. 1 Maccabees 14:20). He plainly attests that they were of 'the race of Abraham' (New Jerusalem Bible).

If it is indeed true that there were members of the scattered tribes of the Northern Kingdom present in the Greek areas, then some were indeed involved in the events of the Maccabees. Sadly, many of them would have been involved in the suppression of the Jews and the defilement of the Temple. Consider the fact that one of the reasons that Jews have a great disdain of swine and pork is because of what happened to the Temple. Alfred J. Kolatch states in The Second Jewish Book of Why, 'scholars have associated the deep Jewish aversion to the pig with the Hasmonean period in Jewish history (second century B.C.E.) when the Syrian-Greeks, led by Antiochus Ephiphanes, dominated the Palestine scene and tried to force Jews to sacrifice pigs in the Temple and to eat of their flesh.'[3]

This is one of the major errors of Ephraim: 'They shall not live in the land of [the Lord]. But Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria' (Hosea 9:3, LITV). The House of Israel/Ephraim is said to have a tendency toward unclean things in the Scriptures.

If there is anything that non-Jewish Messianic Believers must understand in regard to Chanukah is that Chanukah is the Festival of Dedication. It should not only be a time for us to rededicate ourselves to the Lord and to confess sin and cleanse ourselves of unrighteousness, but it should also be a time for us to reconcile with our Jewish brethren and realize that if it had not been for the steadfastness of Mattathais and his sons, there would have been no operating Temple during the time of Yeshua. The Jews might have been assimilated into the Seleucid Syrian Greek milieu and there would be no recognizable remnant of Israel today. We all must rejoice in the triumph of our Jewish brethren over evil and pledge ourselves to stand by their side.

Today’s Dilemma: Encountering Hellenism

One of today’s serious dilemmas is how Chanukah is handled in the emerging Two-House Messianic community. Because Chanukah often occurs in close proximity to Christmas, many people say Chanukah is a more Biblical celebration than Christmas, even though both holidays are not mandated in Scripture. Many, in wanting to expose the pagan nature of the Christmas tree, become vehemently opposed to commemorating the birth of Messiah Yeshua. Certainly, if Yeshua’s birth is to be commemorated, it is to be commemorated during the time of His actual birth, which many Messianics are agreed was probably during Sukkot or Tabernacles, making His conception sometime around Chanukah. But celebration of Chanukah should not be viewed as a replacement for Christmas. Celebrating Chanukah should be an occasion where we rededicate ourselves to God and to one another, as the Maccabees did to the Temple some 2,200 years ago.

Another serious problem is that Chanukah often becomes a time for unwarranted 'Greek bashing,' which oftentimes manifests itself in criticism and denial of the inspiration of the Greek Apostolic Scriptures. Hellenism, or Greek philosophy, is by no means something that we endorse, but definitions of Hellenism vary. As it concerns the time of the Maccabees, there are some very distinct definitions of Hellenism that must be taken into account that the Seleucid Greeks forced upon the Jews:

'And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the cities of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and feasts, to defile the sanctuary and the priests, to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and unclean animals, and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, so that they should forget the law and change all the ordinances. And whoever does not obey the command of the king shall die' (1 Maccabees 1:44-50).

The Hellenism that the Maccabees fought against included:

Following the Greek religion, which included the worship of multiple gods and images, and making sacrifices to them with unclean animals

A prohibition on animal sacrifices and prescribed offerings according to the Torah

A prohibition on keeping the seventh-day Sabbath

A prohibition on circumcision

A prohibition on studying the Torah and its ordinances, so the people would forget their covenant status with the God of Israel

Hellenism, as the Maccabees understood it, included these things. Are there Christians, and indeed liberal Messianics, that adhere to some of these things? Yes. There are those who believe that the Torah is unimportant, that the seventh-day Sabbath was done away with, that eating kosher is unimportant, that circumcision is unimportant, and that the Temple service is unimportant. I am not one of those who believes these things to be unimportant. These things are being restored to the Body of Messiah as we rapidly approach His return.

However, in fair balance to First Century history and the time of Yeshua, Greek language and Greek philosophy did exist in the world of the Messiah. Hebrew and Aramaic were the local languages of the Land of Israel, but Greek became the standardized language of the Eastern Mediterranean. NIDB states it correctly in saying that 'The fact that Greek became the language of literature and commerce throughout the ‘inhabited world,’ for example, was of inestimable importance to the spread of the gospel.'[4] If it had not been for Alexander the Great, the Apostles would have had a very difficult time in going out on missionary journeys, as there would have been a whole host of local languages they would have had to learn, rather than one standardized language. A Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint, was widely disseminated and was helpful in many non-Jews converting to Judaism prior to the First Coming of Yeshua.[5] The use of Greek in the First Century is no different than how the expansion of the British Empire in the Nineteenth Century, and American television in the Twentieth Century, have helped make English the dominant language of today. We should be thankful that English has the widespread usage that it has today; otherwise the restorations that are being accomplished to the Body of Messiah may not be taking place as easily as they are through communication with Believers worldwide.

Our Chanukah celebrations should not be a time for 'Greek bashing.' Those who would do so need to understand the history of the ancient world. Our Chanukah celebrations need to focus on the unity of all of Israel, that non-Jewish Messianic Believers need to repent of sins and rededicate themselves to the Lord and to their Jewish brethren, and that individually we need to clean our personal temples of any defilements that we may have.

Conclusion

As we focus on the Festival of Lights, we must not forget the Light of the World, Messiah Yeshua, and we must not forget the hardships and trials that the Jewish people have had to endure. We must be inspired by the dedication of the Maccabees to stand, fight, and even die for the truth of God. We must not succumb to the temptations of the popular culture, but stand for what we know is right, just, and godly. As all Israel is in the process of being reunited, non-Jewish Believers must remember their position, and the potential involvement of the Northern Kingdom Israelites in the events of the Maccabees. They must repent for past sins of persecution of the Jewish people. Jewish Believers must recognize their repentance and welcome them into the fold, and all of us must join together and rejoice in the miracle that the Lord God performed those many centuries ago as the menorah was lit for those eight days.

If you have been blessed by Outreach Israel Ministries and TNN Online this year, please consider helping us with a Special Year End Offering.

NOTES

[1] The Soncino Talmud. Judaic Classics Library II. MS Windows 3.1. Brooklyn: Institute for Computers in Jewish Life, 1996. CD-ROM.

[2] Frederick William Danker, ed., et. al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, third edition (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 272.

[3] Alfred J. Kolatch, The Second Jewish Book of Why (Middle Village, NY: Jonathan David Publishers, 1985), 318.

[4] Brewster Porcella, 'Alexander the Great,' in Merill C. Tenney, ed., New International Dictionary of the Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1987), 33.

[5] Consult Messianic author Tim Hegg’s comments on pp 39-42 of his book The Letter Writer (Littleton, CO: First Fruits of Zion, 2002). Hegg suggests that the Apostle Paul, while being a Rabbinical scholar and student of the Jewish Sage Gamaliel, likely also studied Greek language and philosophy at the same Rabbinical school. If indeed true, this would correspond with the historical understanding that Pharisaical Judaism was an active proselytizing religion (Yeshua condemned their manner of proselytizing in Matthew 23:15). Paul would not have studied Greek language, philosophy, and culture just for the sake of learning it, but for the sake of converting Greek-speakers to the religion of the God of Israel. The same should be our goal if any of us is called to the mission field: we must know about the people grouping to whom we are called.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-05-2007, 10:57 PM

Hey there Susan,

Thanks for posting this. Its a good read.

VIRTUAL CHANUKAH
POSTED 05 DECEMBER, 2007

Chanukah for the Two Houses of Israel

by J.K. McKee
editor@tnnonline.net

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The subject of what Messianic Believers are to be doing for the Winter holiday season can be very controversial. On the one hand, Messianics cannot, and should not, celebrate Christmas because it is non-Biblical and was created to be a replacement for the Biblical appointments of Leviticus 23.
Most of the article is fine, but unfortunately is started off with this gross error. Christians made Christmas to celebrate the birth of Christ our Savior. It was not created as a "replacement" of any Levitical "appointments" as should be obvous because there aren't any Levitical appointments in December! Granted, some Christians tried to avoid celebrating Easter on exactly the same date as Passover because of fights between them and some Jews, but that's a different issue. I find this divisive spirit of some Messianics to be very disturbing. But I am glad he understands the importance of unity, as demonstrated by his words I highlight red bold below:

On the other hand, should Messianic Believers celebrate Chanukah, or the Feast of Dedication? Within the emerging Two-House Messianic community, as it is often described, there is debate over whether or not we should celebrate Chanukah. Primarily the debate surrounds the fact that oftentimes the celebration of Chanukah can become a replacement for Christmas, and the fact that Chanukah is not a Biblically mandated holiday.

If there is anything we must consider per this debate it is two things: (1) We must have an attitude that brings glory to our Heavenly Father, and (2) our actions must foster unity and understanding between Jewish and non-Jewish Believers. Sadly, like many of the issues that we face, the subject of whether or not we should celebrate Chanukah has two extremes: there are those who vehemently oppose its observance, and perhaps might even consider it a “gross Jewish error.” And, there are those who go overboard in encouraging its celebration, in an effort to prove that they are “better” than Christians who celebrate Christmas in ignorance. Neither one of these positions is right.

<snip of good discussion of the origin of Hanukkah>

Yeshua was present in Jerusalem during Chanukah. We may assume by His presence in the holy city that He was celebrating whatever was commemorated at that time. Notice that during Chanukah some Jews ask Him if He was the Messiah. Yeshua tells them that He has already demonstrated His Messiahship to them by His actions and that they do not believe. The quintessential statement made here is “I and the Father are one.” The Hebrew word for “one” used frequently in the Tanach is echad (dxa), and its Greek equivalent is heis (eiß). Echad is used in the Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4: “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!” In proclaiming that He and the Father are one, Yeshua was proclaiming Himself to be Divine and to be of the same substance as God. By doing so, the Jews present wanted to stone Him as they believed He was committing blasphemy.
AMEN! I love it when Messianic believers understand who Jesus really claimed to be.

Celebrating Chanukah and understanding that Yeshua was in Jerusalem at this time is very important. It is especially important when we understand what Yeshua was doing and the questions that He was asked regarding His mission.

To be continued in next post
OK - I'll continue there ....

Richard

eliyahu

12-06-2007, 08:56 AM

My family and I are Gentiles and we are celebrating Hanakah. We have for a few years now and it is a rich time of blessing and celebration. I also see much eschatological signifigance in it.

eliyahu

12-06-2007, 09:16 AM

In re to RAM way back there. For sake of clarity I did not mean any person in particular when I said "personal offence" or "jealousy." Forgive me for my brashness. I am trying to jump in somewhere.
I do not say that the Jews are more spiritual or even saved based on their ethnicity. I do not think you beliefe that sort of thing either. I just would say that the whole issue of the promise being to the "seed" does not supersede the fact that the new covenant is made with Israel. If they respond in faith to the good news of the new covenant in Jesus' blood than they are added to the church in addition to their being part of Israel. Gentiles conversly are added to this new covenant with Israel by the same faith in Jesus. That is the mystery that Paul spoke of: that Gentiles are grafted in along with the believing in Israel by faith! This makes them children of Abraham and also to be "seed" in Messiah by faith. The seed will inherit the promises.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-06-2007, 11:13 AM

My family and I are Gentiles and we are celebrating Hanakah. We have for a few years now and it is a rich time of blessing and celebration. I also see much eschatological signifigance in it.
I would be intersted to hear more about the "eschatological signifigance in it."

Richard Amiel McGough

12-06-2007, 11:46 AM

In re to RAM way back there. For sake of clarity I did not mean any person in particular when I said "personal offence" or "jealousy." Forgive me for my brashness. I am trying to jump in somewhere.
Understood. No harm, no foul. Actually, it was good because if gave me a chance to affirm our basic unity and love here even when it might appear that we are bickering. Families are like that sometimes. The family of Christ is no exception.

I do not say that the Jews are more spiritual or even saved based on their ethnicity. I do not think you beliefe that sort of thing either. I just would say that the whole issue of the promise being to the "seed" does not supersede the fact that the new covenant is made with Israel. If they respond in faith to the good news of the new covenant in Jesus' blood than they are added to the church in addition to their being part of Israel. Gentiles conversly are added to this new covenant with Israel by the same faith in Jesus. That is the mystery that Paul spoke of: that Gentiles are grafted in along with the believing in Israel by faith! This makes them children of Abraham and also to be "seed" in Messiah by faith. The seed will inherit the promises.
Amen, AMEN, and AMEN! I believe that is a perfect expression of the Biblical truth. The New Covenant was indeed made with Israel, confirmed in the blood of Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost when 3000 Jews were saved. It was AFTER God made His New Covenant with both houses of Israel and Judah that He extended it to the Gentiles. I believe this is the fulfillment of the New Spirit and Two Sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37:11-28 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you [PENTECOST], and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. 15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one [in the Spirit of Christ] in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: [Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.] 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king [Christ] shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them [in the blood of Christ]: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [Fulfilled in Christ - 2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ] 24 And David my servant [Christ] shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd [John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. ]: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever [CHRIST!]. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant [New Covenant] with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [The Church = New Jerusalem = Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.] 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. We have a total, absolute, and complete fulfillment of this prophecy in the events of Pentecost and the establishment of the Christian Church in the first century. The fact that "David my servant shall be king over them" proves absolutely that the vision was SYMBOLIC of Christ and His Church, since we know that literal David is not going to be literally ruling in a future literal earthly Kingdom. Futhermore, all the promises about God dwelling with His People are explicitly declared to be fulfilled in the Church by Paul, and the imagery fits exactly with the SYMBOL of the New Jerusalem which has been proven beyond all doubt to represent the Church, the Bride of Christ, as it is written:
Revelation 21:9-10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This is the glory of TRUE ESCHATOLOGY - it is centered on CHRIST and it proclaims the GOSPEL. We can know with great certainty that this is the correct interpretation of this vision. Ten thousand pieces from every book of the Bible fit together with precision, elegance, and grace. Our certainty is then magnified another tenfold when we compare it to the false futurist interpretations which are fundamentally incoherent with logic, history, the Gospel, and the overall thematic flow of the entire Bible.

Or that's how it seems to me anyway. :D Please believe me that I am not trying to offend anyone who holds to a different view of eschatology! I'm just speaking freely the truth as I see it. I hope everyone on this forum will feel the same freedom (and passion) to express what they truly believe.

I would be delighted to know how others see this.

Richard

White

12-06-2007, 07:43 PM

Happy Hanukkah Everybody!

3rd night tonight -
Is is on 12/13/98 that I went to Kenesseth Israel for my first Hanakkah dinner where I met a Jewish man by the name of Goldfarb. He wanted to kow whether JESUS (yes, he said the name in that Synagogue) was the MESSIAH?
I told him : "Absolutely! I'll PROVE it to you!" I pulled out my New Testament in Hebrew and opened it up to Matthew 12:8 : "For the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath!" Mr. Goldfarb was quite puzzled and did not understand. SO I said : "Aren't you keeping the Sabbath Holy?" To which he answered : "Of course, I'm a Jew!" I replied : "Then here is says that HE IS YOUR LORD!" and I put the Hebrew New Testament away. Now Mr. Goldfarb was very anxious to learn more about what I knew and before he left, he came up to me and said : "But you would not convert anybody, would you?" The Holy SPirit inspired my answer : "What do you want to convert to? Y'SHUA is a Jew! You don't have to convert. All you have to do is ACCEPT HIM!" Mr. Goldfarb smiled at me, turned away and I could see that he knew that Y'SHUA / JESUS is Messiah.

On 12/26/1998, the LORD prompted me to attend that same Synagogue - Kenesseth Israel Congregation - for a Sabbath Morning Service. The reading : Ezekiel 37:15-28 - exactly as you have stated here RIchard. That was the entire reading of the Haftorah on that day, the day after Christmas, in 1998. The LORD had revealed this passage to me in 1997 concerning the Messianic Kingdom, especially 37:22 and for me Isaiah 49:22 became another important passage : "Thus says the LORD GOD: "See I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; they shall bring your sons in their arms and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders." I knew very little about the bible in 1997, but following the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT, HE brought me to that Orthodox Synagogue to learn the ways of my LORD. As a matter of fact, HIS prompting to me was : "THIS IS MY FATHER'S HOUSE! GO HERE!" Always having been a very obedient child to my earthly Father, I knew that I could not turn away, although I did try to argue when I answered : "But they don't love you!"
But I had to do what the HOLY SPIRIT asked of my and thus I entered that Synagogue for the first time around the Feast of Tabernacle in 1998. Now back for the 3rd time on 12/26/1998 The following week the LORD blessed me with the funds to get my house out of foreclosure. That only proved to me more that I needed to attend Synagogue on Saturdays, which I did till November 1999 (the Jewish New Year started on 9/11 in 1999) , when I asked Rabbi Chaim Goldberger to accept Y'SHUA / JESUS as Messiah. I was told to leave and if I should return, I would be arrested. Then the Holy Spirit directed my steps back to the CATHOLIC CHURCH, my childhood religion, where I worship daily, including SHABBAT (Saturday) morning and evening. May the LORD open their eyes to HIMSELF and may we pray and believe that HE truly has a GOOD PLAN for HIS PEOPLE, because nothing is too difficult for HIM. He inspired me to write these words on 5/19/1997 : "It is MY WILL to fulfill your heart's desire. Walk with ME, talk with ME, MY path will inspire." Follow JESUS / Y'SHUA all the way home!

May we all be obedient to the CALL of the LORD and may we know that "I can do all things through HIM who strengthens me" Phili[ppians 4:13 and "Vengeance is MINE, says the LORD. I will repay!" Romans 12:19. Liking the play on numbers, I found 1 King 12:19 stating : 'And Israel went into rebellion against David's House to this day." Interesting, is it not???

Fast forward to the Biblewheel and my own website www.watchandpray.com which is based on Revelation 21 - the New Jerusalem coming down grom Heaven... and the title of my personal Testimony is : "The Spirit and the Bride", Revelation 22... Interesting, Richard, especially since you have helped me with the Website. God works in mysterious ways, does HE not?

Shalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land on this 3rd day of Hanukkah
Monique

sula

12-06-2007, 08:50 PM

A Summarization of Chanukah Traditions

by Margaret McKee Huey & J.K. McKee

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The holiday of Chanukah, or the Festival of Dedication, is full of many customs and traditions that give our celebration great life and depth. During this time of year, we have the awesome opportunity to commemorate the work of God from some 2,200 years ago during the time of the Maccabees. If they had not fought against the Seleucid invaders of Israel, the Jewish people would have either been destroyed through war, or would have disappeared via cultural assimilation. Chanukah, as attested in the historical record, was mandated as a national celebration so that the community could remember the sacrifice of the Maccabees, and the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem:

'Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with gladness and joy for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Chislev' (1 Maccabees 4:59).

We have the wonderful opportunity to join with our Jewish brothers and sisters, and celebrate in the historical triumphs that are given for us in the story of the Maccabees. There is much for us to celebrate during this time, as we remember how God inspired a rag-tag army to fight a vastly superior force, and never give up until the goal of victory was achieved. We are to remember how the Maccabees fought off the cultural assimilation that they faced, which required them to deny the Torah and its commandments. We are to remember how the Maccabees rededicated the Temple to the God of Israel, restoring the vessels of worship and sacrifices to their rightful places. And, we are also to remember how Antiochus Epiphanes, the Seleucid king who thought he was a god, was ultimately judged by the True God he was trying to destroy.

As you can imagine, many customs and traditions have evolved in the centuries past when the Jewish community has remembered Chanukah. We have compiled the following list of elements that are included in traditional observance, followed by some things that we have adapted in our own family observance as Messianic Believers, which we believe will be helpful for you.

Lighting the Menorah

Lighting the menorah is probably the most common custom associated with Chanukah. The Temple menorah (hrAnm) was one of the most awesome and valuable pieces of worship, as well as one of the most difficult to replace. It is not agreed among Biblical historians whether or not the actual candelabra that the Maccabees originally lit was the actual Temple menorah, or something makeshift. One 'baraita [statement] states that the Hasmoneans could not use the candelabrum in the Temple since the Greeks had defiled it. They, therefore, took seven iron spits, covered them with zinc, and used them as a candelabrum (Scholium to Megillat Ta’anit)' (EJ).[1] Later traditions indicate that 'upon entering the Temple, the Hasmoneans discovered that the Greeks had defiled all the oil, except for one cruse, which contained enough oil to keep the candelabrum burning for only one day. A miracle, however, happened and they kindled it for eight days' (EJ).[2] The reason this was a miracle is that the oil that was used to light the menorah took eight days to be properly consecrated. The Torah says that the oil used was to be 'clear oil of beaten olives for the light, to make a lamp burn continually' (Exodus 27:20; cf. Leviticus 24:2), and the prevailing halachah of the day required that it took eight days for this oil to be produced. While some people today brand the miracle of the oil remaining lit for eight days only a 'legend,' the fact of the matter remains that Orthodox Jews, most Conservative Jews, and the vast majority of the Messianic Jewish community today, believe with great faith that it actually happened.

While today the chanukia, or nine-branched menorah for Chanukah, is often decorated elaborately, and there are various styles among different Jewish communities over the world, First Century chanukias would not have been as elaborate. 'There was in use in talmudic times the Greco-Roman polymixos, a many mouthed lamp which was made of clay, stone, or bronze with eight apertures for wicks fed by a central reservoir on whose surface geometrical or symbolic designs often appear' (EJ).[3] This may have been the model for the first chanukias. There is no uniform design that appears in archaeological or traditional evidence, but it is safe to assume that some kind of miniature candelabrum, either made of metal or clay, was used by Jews to commemorate this holiday.

We do know, based on Talmudic evidence, that the practice of kindling lights for Chanukah was present in the First Century world of Yeshua. In the First Century B.C.E., prior to the First Coming of Yeshua, there were halachic differences between the Pharisaical schools of Hillel and Shammai over when and how the menorah for Chanukah should be lit.[4] These halachic differences are primarily given to us in the tractates b.Shabbat 21b and b.Shabbat 23a of the Babylonian Talmud. Ronald L. Eisenberg notes in The JPS Guide to Jewish Traditions, 'Beit Shammai declared that eight candles should be lit on the first night, and thereafter they should be reduced by one on each successive day. The halakah, as usual, follows Beit Hillel, which argued for lighting one candle on the first night, two on the second night, and so forth. This view was based on the principle that in matters of holiness, one should increase rather than diminish.'[5]

As Messianic Believers today, who are striving to return to the First Century practices of the early Believers, we should likewise be following the rulings of Beit Hillel here, and light the chanukia one candle for the first night, two candles for the second night, etc. The Apostle Paul was a student under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), who was the grandson of Hillel, and would have adhered to Beit Hillel’s rulings.

Throughout Jewish history, there have been various ways members of the community have lit the chanukia. While in earlier times, olive oil was preferred to be used to light the chanukia, almost any oil can be used, and today the vast majority of people use candles. Eisenberg notes, 'Lighting only one menorah is sufficient to fulfill the mitzvah, but it has become customary among Ashkenazim for each person in a household to light his or her own menorah. Women are equally obliged to light the Hanukkah lamps, since they also were included in the miracle (Shab. 23a).'[6] The first candle to be lit is the shamash (vmv) candle, or 'servant' candle in the center, which is then used to light the first, second, third, and whatever other candles need to be lit on the respective day(s) of Chanukah.

Today, the custom of lighting the chanukia is usually performed in the early evening. Biblically, as the day begins in the evening, the first night of Chanukah begins at sundown. It is notable that Chanukah is not a high holiday, and thus work is permitted during the eight days, except on the Sabbath. On Shabbat the lighting of the chanukiah applies as though one were lighting the Shabbat candles, which is often performed a minimum of eighteen minutes before sundown. Furthermore, as Eisenberg remarks, 'The Hanukkah candles should burn for a minimum of a half hour. However, the general halakic opinion is that merely kindling the light fulfills the commandment.'[7]

We offer this information to give you a broad perspective regarding the lighting of the Chanukah lights in the modern Jewish community. Some of you, as you light your chanukia, may only be able to leave it lit for a short time. Likewise, some of you might have several chanukias, and have each member of your family—or even added guests for that matter—light their own. (Some may not want to do this because of small children and the added fire hazard!) Some of you may have more traditional chanukias, which are somehow modeled after the Temple menorah, or various other classical designs. Likewise, some of you may prefer the more neo-modern looking chanukias, or the various other non-traditional ones available today. However you choose to kindle the Chanukah lights during the eight days, have fun when doing it! Remember the rededication of the Temple, and that the Maccabees may have only been using iron bars for a makeshift menorah, especially if your chanukia is not as 'fancy' as those of others.

Eating Fried Foods

Feasting is a very important part of celebrating any of the holidays, be they Biblical, extra-Biblical, national Israeli holidays, or otherwise, in the Jewish community. Eating fried foods, in particular, is one of the great traditions surrounding Chanukah. More than anything else, eating fried foods has become a part of Chanukah so that celebrants might remember the miracle of the oil. In more Biblical times, eating foods cooked in olive oil was customary, but in more modern times, with various and diverse cooking oils, we see a wider variance of fried foods. The Ashkenazic communities in Germany and Central Europe frequently celebrated Chanukah by eating latkes, or potato pancakes fried in oil. Latkes are often garnished with applesauce, although modern condiments like ketchup, or even barbeque sauce, are becoming more commonplace when eating them. Sufganiot (sing. sufgania) are special doughnuts fried in oil that are quite popular in the Sephardic community, and in Israel today.

Of course, concerning anyone’s celebration of Chanukah, there are many more popular fried foods, from all over the world, that can be eaten at this time. These may also be eaten in the Jewish community during Chanukah, but are often more localized or regionalized. Some of our personal family 'fried favorites' to eat during this time include funnel cakes, beer-battered onion rings, Southern fried chicken (not fried in lard!), and a good British fish-n-chips. Deep fried turkey is also quickly becoming a popular dish in America today. As you commemorate Chanukah with the more customary latkes and sufganiot, you may wish to pull out some of your favorite 'fried recipes' that can be enjoyed during this wonderful time.

Eating Cheese and Dairy Foods

An interesting custom that has evolved in some segments of the Jewish community includes eating cheese and dairy foods during Chanukah. Eisenberg remarks that 'The tradition of eating cheese and other dairy foods is based on late midrashim that associate Hanukkah with the story of Judith…Although the Book of Judith…is set in the Babylonian period (sixth century B.C.E.) and thus seems to have no apparent connection with Hanukkah, medieval versions of the story relate it to the Hasmonean revolt.'[8] Relating the story of Judith to the events of the Maccabees may have been done to help include women in the celebration of Chanukah, and incorporate a story where a woman, Judith, was used in warfare. According to the story, Judith prepared a great feast for the general Holofernes, including cheese. When he was in a drunken stupor, Judith beheaded him and was able to help the Jews he captured escape. Some women in the Jewish community choose not to work during Chanukah in deference to the example of Judith.

Cheese blintzes are a very popular food at almost any holiday time in the Jewish community. These are crepes filled with a sweetened cream cheese or cottage cheese, sometimes also with fruit, and are often deep fried. In modern Israel today, eating pizza is also popular during the Chanukah season. Whether this is specifically because of the custom of eating cheese and dairy products during Chanukah, or simply because of the popularity of pizza, may never be entirely known!

Spinning the Dreidel

Spinning the dreidel became a popular game to play in the Jewish communities of the late Middle Ages, to deter people from playing cards and gambling, which had become the norm in some sectors. The word dreidel is derived from the German verb drehen, meaning 'to turn.'[9] Some believe that a form of the dreidel game was played by Jews during the Maccabean era when the Seleucids would inspect them to see if they were studying the Torah. The dreidel was played to make the Seleucids think that the Jews were gambling, instead of talking about the Scriptures among themselves.

A dreidel is a spinning top, based on dice that originally had the letters N, G, H, and S on its four sides, representing the German words nichts (nothing), ganz (all), halb (half), and shtell arein (put in). Jewish communities adapted the dreidel employing the Hebrew letter equivalents nun (n), gimel (g), hey (h), and shin (v). These four Hebrew letters also make up the acronym nes gadol hayah sham or 'a great miracle happened there.' In Israel today the shin is replaced by the letter peh (p) for po, changing the meaning to 'a great miracle happened here.' The dreidel game is often played using Chanukah Gelt, candy, or nuts.

Chanukah Gelt and Giving Presents

It has become customary for Jewish parents to give their children Chanukah Gelt during this time of year. Gelt is the Yiddish word for 'money' (Ger. Geld). Eisenberg remarks that 'Some have suggested that this practice relates to the minting of coins for currency by the Maccabees after restoring political autonomy to the Jewish people.'[10] In Eastern Europe Gelt was often given to children on the fifth night of Chanukah, as an incentive for them to continue in Torah study, which was robbed from the Jews by the decree of Antiochus Epiphanes. In successive generations the custom of giving Gelt to all children was replaced by giving chocolate coins wrapped in gold foil, and by giving presents, one per each night of Chanukah, to members of one’s household.

Singing the Maoz Tzur Hymn

One important Chanukah custom followed in the Jewish community is singing the hymn Maoz Tzur, meaning 'Rock of Ages.' It is to be a song of thanksgiving to God, as He is thanked for delivering the people of Israel from the Egyptian bondage, through the Babylonian exile, Haman’s plot to exterminate the Jews, and ultimately the victory of the Maccabees. An English form of Maoz Tzur was composed by the American Rabbis Marcus Jastrow and Gustav Gottheil in the Nineteenth Century,[11] and is the form that you will often hear on television and radio broadcasts focusing on Chanukah.

Reading the Books of the Maccabees

We believe that perhaps the most important Chanukah custom, aside from lighting the chanukia, is actually sitting down and familiarizing oneself with the story of the Maccabees. First of all, it is important that we in the Messianic community have a firm foundation in Biblical studies, and that we know the history of the 'elongated First Century' from the time of the Maccabees to the end of the First Century C.E. with the composition of the Book of Revelation. We have to understand that the establishment of the Hasmonean kingdom was the last time that Israel was an independent nation until the State of Israel was founded in 1948. Furthermore, the events of the Maccabees can help us understand the position of Judea in the larger world of the First Century B.C.E., as the Roman Republic was expanding in influence and consolidating the Mediterranean basin under its grasp.

The Books of 1-4 Maccabees, found in the Apocrypha, are historical, yet filled with important Biblical themes. We see the lives of Jewish men and women who are not afraid to die for their faith in the God of Israel. They have the confidence of knowing that they will be rewarded in the hereafter, and that those tormenting them will be punished severely and eternally by the Almighty. One group of Jews, captured and tortured by the Seleucids, had the following to say in a united voice as they faced certain death:

'Therefore, tyrant, put us to the test; and if you take our lives because of our religion, do not suppose that you can injure us by torturing us. For we, through this severe suffering and endurance, shall have the prize of virtue and shall be with God, for whom we suffer; but you, because of your bloodthirstiness toward us, will deservedly undergo from the divine justice eternal torment by fire' (4 Maccabees 9:7-9).

These are the kinds of stories that should inspire us as Messianic Believers today to not give in to the peer pressures of our worldly society. We should be thankful that we do not presently face the threat of death for worshipping the God of Israel as He requires of us. Those who lived in the period of the Maccabees did. We have to be inspired and deeply moved by the story of the Maccabees, as we should be by any martyrs of the faith, and commit ourselves to standing for the truth of the Lord in whatever situations we may face. As you read the accounts of the Maccabees, never forget their courage and sacrifice for us, who are the spiritual recipients of their actions. Never forget that if they had not stood for the truth against an overwhelming force, that there would have been no remnant of Israel for our Messiah Yeshua to have been born into, who is the Light of the whole world.

NOTES

[1] Moshe David Herr, 'Hanukkah,' in Enyclopaedia Judaica. MS Windows 9x. Brooklyn: Judaica Multimedia (Israel) Ltd, 1997.

[2] Ibid.

[3] Yitzhak Einhorn, 'Hannukah Lamp,' in EJ.

[4] Some of the other theological differences and similarities between the schools of Hillel and Shammai are examined the article 'You Want to be a Pharisee' by J.K. McKee.

[5] Ronald L. Eisenberg, The JPS Guide to Jewish Traditions (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 2004), 248.

[6] Ibid., 249.

[7] Ibid., 250.

[8] Ibid., 247.

[9] Ibid., 251.

[10] Ibid., 247.

[11] Ibid., pp 251-252.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-07-2007, 11:46 AM

As Messianic Believers today, who are striving to return to the First Century practices of the early Believers, we should likewise be following the rulings of Beit Hillel here, and light the chanukia one candle for the first night, two candles for the second night, etc. The Apostle Paul was a student under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), who was the grandson of Hillel, and would have adhered to Beit Hillel’s rulings.

Christians should not "follow the rulings" of any Jewish book that denies Jesus Christ. And as for the Apostle Paul being a student under Gamaliel, that is true. Paul was a Pharisee. Gamaliel was a pharisee. What did Jesus think of the "rulings of the pharisees?"

Mark 7:1-13 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. [according to their "rulings"] 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men -- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 ¶He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 "But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" -- ' (that is, a gift to God), 12 "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
How soon we forget the Holy Word!

Richard

sula

12-07-2007, 02:45 PM

Christians should not "follow the rulings" of any Jewish book that denies Jesus Christ. And as for the Apostle Paul being a student under Gamaliel, that is true. Paul was a Pharisee. Gamaliel was a pharisee. What did Jesus think of the "rulings of the pharisees?"

Richard, I think you are taking this out of context......and this is "only" your opinion.

Mark 7:1-13 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. [according to their "rulings"] 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men -- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 9 ¶He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 "But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" -- ' (that is, a gift to God), 12 "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
How soon we forget the Holy Word!

Richard

Obviously these men were Pharisees...they were JEWS!!!! Jesus is/was a JEW......Paul was Jewish......and what the above scriptures have to do with Hanukkah, I know not. The Pharisees ARE part of the Biblical history.

sula

12-07-2007, 03:02 PM

POSTED 07 DECEMBER, 2007

Teaching on the Chanukah Torah Portion
Numbers 7:1-8:4

commentary by J.K. McKee

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On the day that Moses finished setting up the Tabernacle, he anointed and consecrated it and all its furnishings, as well as the altar and its utensils. When he had anointed and consecrated them, the chieftains of Israel, the heads of ancestral houses, namely, the chieftains of the tribes, those who were in charge of enrollment, drew near and brought their offering before the Lord: six draught carts and twelve oxen, a cart for every two chieftains and an ox for each one. When they had brought them before the Tabernacle, the Lord said to Moses: Accept these from them for use in the service of the Tent of Meeting, and give them to the Levites according to their respective services (Numbers 7:1-5, NJPS).

Numbers 7:1-8:4 is the customary Torah portion that is read in the Jewish community throughout the eight days of Chanukah. Orthodox Jews will often read it through in various segments per day.[1] If we were following this day-by-day schedule of reading, then our selection for today, Chanukah Day 4, would be Numbers 7:30-41. However, for the sake of us all getting the most out of the text, I have chosen to only comment on Numbers 7:1-5.

The Torah portion for Chanukah appears in the narrative of the dedication of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. The events recorded are paralleled with the dedication of the sacred vessels of worship in Leviticus 8:10-11. Without a doubt, this selection was chosen by the Jewish Rabbis for us to compare the dedication of the Tabernacle and the sanctification of its objects of worship, with the rededication that the Maccabees had to perform when they cleansed the Temple after their victory over the Seleucids. Numbers 7:10 says, 'The leaders offered the dedication offering for the altar when it was anointed.' The Hebrew word for 'dedication' in this passage is, not surprisingly, chanukah (hKnx).[2]

1 Now on the day that Moses had finished setting up the tabernacle, he anointed it and consecrated it with all its furnishings and the altar and all its utensils; he anointed them and consecrated them also.

The Chanukah Torah reading begins by telling us that 'Moses finished erecting the Tabernacle' (ATS). Obviously, the text is recalling the story of how the Tabernacle was being established, which would be the mainstay order of worship for the Ancient Israelites until the construction of the First Temple by King Solomon. Moses did not 'build' or 'set up' the Tabernacle, nor did he fashion any of the furnishings, the altar, or the sacred utensils. These jobs were all given to Bezalel, Oholiab, and others, who were responsible for actually constructing the Tabernacle and performing the hard work behind. Yet, Moses is credited with its construction as the leader of Israel, who relayed God’s instructions regarding how it was to be built.

It was not until the Tabernacle was 'anointed and consecrated' (NJPS) that the work could be considered complete. The Hebrew actually reads v’yimshachem v’yeqadesh otam (~ta vDqyw ~xvmYw), employing two important verbs that every Messianic Believer needs to know: mashach (xvm) and qadash (vdq). Mashach means to 'spread a liquid (oil, paint) over,' often relating to 'cult objects' (CHALOT).[3] This is the same verb from which the term Mashiach (xyvm) or 'Messiah' is derived. Do we see important themes reminiscent throughout the Numbers’ account, at least indirectly? Yes. As Believers, we certainly see the majesty of God in the specific details of the Tabernacle furniture, as well as in the reality that in spite of the awesomeness of these implements, the best that the Tabernacle/Temple service could offer would be temporary atonement for one’s sin, requiring the Messiah Yeshua to come.

Of course, one of the aims of the Tabernacle’s implements being anointed was so that they could be 'sanctified.' Qadash, appearing here in the Piel stem (indicating intensive action), can mean 'to transfer something to the state of holiness (treatment in accordance with cult rules), dedicate for use before God' (HALOT).[4] It can also mean 'to transform someone to the state of holiness, dedicate' (HALOT).[5] In the immediate Mosaic context, obviously the utensils had to be anointed with oil in order to be consecrated, or made holy for the Lord’s work. Looking at this with the story of Chanukah in mind, the same utensils would have to be recrafted and reanointed in order for the Temple service to be reinstated. 1 Maccabees 1:21 plainly attests that Antiochus Ephiphanes 'arrogantly entered the sanctuary and took the golden altar, the lampstand for the light, and all its untensils.' But also on a personal level for us as Believers, each one of us has to receive the Divine anointing that only comes from us receiving Messiah Yeshua into our lives, so that we can begin the process of sanctification that comes with salvation.

The result of the Tabernacle vessels being anointed with oil and consecrated was so that now the Tabernacle could be used for the service and worship of the God of Israel. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch remarks, 'the entire sanctuary formed a single, integrated unit, in which every part had a sacred meaning and all of them complimented one another. Thus, they could not be sanctified piecemeal, but only when all had been anointed.'[6] Only when all of the Tabernacle tools, implements, and devices were anointed and consecrated could the Tabernacle be used.

Individually today, how many of us think of this? Perhaps it is easy for us as Believers in Yeshua to consider the importance of us receiving the Messiah into our lives and receiving His anointing. Perhaps its also easy for us to consider the sanctification process, whereby we are called to humanly decrease and be conformed to His image, continually becoming holy by obeying our Heavenly Father. But how many of us have thought about the fact that it was only when all the implements for the Tabernacle were sanctified and consecrated that it could be used?

Many of us come from religious backgrounds where we have been taught that our faith may only be a 'one-on-one' relationship with God, and that we are only accountable as individuals to God for our conduct. This is true to an extent, but we are also to function as a corporate Body of Messiah in His service. Perhaps v. 1 begs too many questions that we are unprepared to answer at this time, notably: How are we to all function together as a single unit, just like the Tabernacle? More than anything else during the Chanukah season, let us rededicate ourselves to the Lord, and make sure that we are individually anointed by the Holy Spirit and are in that process of being made holy.

2 Then the leaders of Israel, the heads of their fathers' households, made an offering (they were the leaders of the tribes; they were the ones who were over the numbered men).

After the consecration of the Tabernacle implements, the leaders of Israel come to Moses to offer gifts. There is some differences in translation, as the standard rendering is 'made an offering' (NASU) or 'made offerings' (NIV); but the NJPS has 'drew near' and the ESV has 'approached.' The verb qarav (brq) appears in the Hifil stem (casual action, passive voice), indicating that it means 'bring near, of presenting, rededication, or offering to' (BDB).[7] Because of its relationship to the noun qorban (!Brq), meaning an offering, most expositors have concluded that the text should be translated as indicating that they brought something. Ronald B. Allen notes, 'This type of language is particularly apt, for the leaders were ‘bringing near’ to the symbols of God’s presence their own gifts. These gifts were necessary and utilitarian.'[8] Of course, as we see later in v. 3, these men bring some major gifts for the Lord’s work.

What is interesting is who these ne’sei Yisrael (larfy yayfn) or 'chiefs of Israel' (ESV) were. No specific identification of them is made in the Biblical text, other than them being 'leaders.' However, referencing the Midrash Rabbah, Jacob Milgrom remarks, 'They had been foremen during the days of Egyptian enslavement, and willingly accepted beatings from their Egyptian taskmasters rather than punish their fellow Israelites for not meeting their quotas of bricks. As a reward, they were honored to bring these inaugural offerings'[9] (cf. Numbers Rabbah 12:16). This begs some interesting questions of why this text would be read during Chanukah. Is there a connection between the leaders of Israel bringing gifts to Moses and the work performed by the Maccabees?

If it can be assumed that the leaders of Israel were indeed the Israelite foremen who took the brunt of beating for their fellow countrymen, and they were then given the honor of being leaders of Israel, could parallels be made with the Maccabees who fought off the Seleucid invaders? Being in military service and fighting for a nation’s freedom is one of the biggest sacrifices anyone can make. It is a great honor, but it comes at a great cost to the individual. While not an exact parallel, 2 Maccabees 12:41-43 attests to the fact that while in the heat of battle the Maccabees remained faithful to the Torah, even collecting up the required payment for sin offerings to be made for them in the Temple:

'So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.'

Here we see that Judas Maccabeus was faithful to the God of Israel and His ways, even while fighting in the bush. Just as the Israelite foremen would have made sacrifices for their fellow man in Egypt, here the Maccabees are making sacrifices on the battlefield. They still pause and do the right thing in accordance with the Torah, and as such the Maccabees became the religious and political leaders following the end of the Seleucid-Greek dominance, similar to these leaders of Israel when the Tabernacle was dedicated.

The important parallel today is whether or not we will remain faithful to the God of Israel and 'take a beating' for it. Will the Lord be able to reward us when we enter His Kingdom and make us leaders? Perhaps we can take comfort in the Messiah’s words, 'Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets' (Luke 6:22-23).

3 When they brought their offering before the Lord, six covered carts and twelve oxen, a cart for every two of the leaders and an ox for each one, then they presented them before the tabernacle.

Here we see the description of the gifts that the chiefs of Israel bring before the Tabernacle. They bring 'six covered wagons and twelve oxen' (RSV). The Hebrew word rendered as either 'cart,' 'wagon,' or 'draught' is agalah (hlg[). It is related to the word egel (lg[), meaning 'calf' (TWOT).[10] What this would seem to indicate more than anything else is that these carts were very large, and 'Covered wagons would certainly be appropriate for transporting the sacred items.'[11] These were the right gifts for the right time. Just as all of the Tabernacle’s vessels were being consecrated for it all to finally function, the leaders brought additional components that may be used. This can be similar to our own individual lives, because as we find ourselves doing those things God prepares us for, He makes sure that we have all those extra components that we might need to assist us in life. We can see this happen by the Lord moving on friends or family to help us in a time of need, an unexpected occurrence in our personal favor, or even with our Father protecting us from things that we wanted to embark upon or experience, but would be harmful to our spiritual growth.

4 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 5 'Accept these things from them, that they may be used in the service of the tent of meeting, and you shall give them to the Levites, to each man according to his service.'

Some Jewish commentators have indicated that 'Moses was reluctant to accept the leaders’ offerings, which God had not commanded them to bring; the experience of Nadab and Abihu, who died when they brought unauthorized incense, was a frightening precedent…But God told Moses that the intention of the leaders was pure and their offerings were worthy of acceptance.'[12] The Lord tells Moses, 'qach m'itam' (~Tam xq, Qal imperative), meaning to 'Take from them.' The command from the Lord is not a passive 'receive these things,' but actually an active order to take them.

The result of Moses taking these things is stated in the text: 'Give them to the Levites as each man's work requires' (NIV). Moses was not to take the items for his exclusive usage, but to redistribute them for the Levites’ service. Moses was to be the intermediary between those stirred by God to give to His work, and Moses then gave those under his authority the things that they needed.

I have been unable to find any information in my reading of 1-4 Maccabees, or the various histories, any specific references that indicate when the Temple was cleansed, massive numbers of people gave over and above what was needed to rededicate it. I suspect that it was difficult, at first, to give to the rededication project as the Land of Israel had been under Seleucid occupation and the people were severely taxed. However, I am sure that many Jewish people had the heart to give, and gave of their time, energy, and resources in whatever way was economically possible, and that is why the Rabbis chose this selection for the traditional Chanukah reading. A critical component of the Chanukah season is having the heart to give unto the Lord, and the gift of service would have been required in order to clean the Temple of its defilements, and prepare it for renewed service to the God of Israel. Just as Moses received gifts to help the Levites in their service, so are gifts always needed today by those in the Father’s service.

The challenge regarding gifts is that we need to be willing to give to the Kingdom’s work when the Lord moves upon us, in whatever way we can. If not, just as there was a massive amount of work to be done for the Temple to be fully rededicated during the time of the Maccabees, the work might not be completed. Today in the Messianic movement, there is a great amount of work that is not being accomplished, ranging from the Biblical studies and theological books that need to be written, to the actual ministering to and counseling of people who are new to this understanding. Add to this the extreme amount of apologetical work that needs to be accomplished in light of the external, and even internal, controversies we face.

The only way that any Messianic ministry or congregation can function in the Kingdom’s work is to receive gifts to take care of the unforeseen things, just like the leaders of Israel gave huge covered wagons that the Levites could use. Moses was commanded to actively take these things. But what happens when there are no people who give? Does the Lord’s work get accomplished? It can be, but it is much more difficult and challenging. The heart of Chanukah, I believe, is for one to be generous in giving, just as was required for the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem some 2,200 years ago.

Bibliography
Allen, Ronald B. 'Numbers,' in EXP, 2:756-758.
Fox, Nili S. 'Numbers,' in The Jewish Study Bible, pp 297-301.
Hertz, J.H. 'The Book of Numbers,' in Pentateuch & Haftorahs, pp 596-601, 605.
Milgrom, Jacob. 'Numbers,' in Etz Hayim: Torah and Commentary, pp 805-811, 816.
Scherman, Nosson. 'Parashas Beha’aloscha,' in ArtScroll Chumash, pp 775-797.
_____________.'Parashas Naso,' in ArtScroll Chumash, pp 765-773.

NOTES

[1] Day 1 (7:1-17), Day 2 (7:18-29), Day 3 (7:24-35), Day 4 (7:30-41), Day 5 (7:36-47), Day 7 (7:48-59), Day 8 (7:54-59).

[2] Cf. Deuteronomy 20:5; 1 Kings 8:63; 2 Chronicles 7:9.

In these passages the verb chanak (%nx), and the word chanukah, are used in tandem to speak of dedicating something.

[3] William L. Holladay, ed., A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden, the Netherlands: Brill, 1988), 218.

[4] Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner, eds., The Hebrew & Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, 2 vols. (Leiden, the Netherlands: Brill, 2001), 2:1073.

[5] Ibid.

[6] Nosson Scherman, ed., et al, The ArtScroll Chumash, Stone Edition, 5th ed. (Brooklyn: Mesorah Publications, 2000), 765.

[7] Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and Charles A. Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1979), 898.

[8] Ronald B. Allen, 'Numbers,' in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. et. al, Expositor’s Bible Commentary, 12 vols (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), 2:757.

[9] Jacob Milgrom, 'Numbers,' in David L. Lieber, ed., Etz Hayim: Torah and Commentary (New York: Rabbinical Assembly, 2001), 805.

[10] Carl Schultz, 'lg[,' in R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, eds. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2 vols. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1980), 2:644.

[11] Allen, in EXP, 2:757.

Milgrom states that these 'Wagons [were] strong enough to carry heavy loads. Each draught cart requires the power of two oxen' (Etz Hayim, p 806).

[12] Scherman, 765

Richard Amiel McGough

12-07-2007, 07:22 PM

As Messianic Believers today, who are striving to return to the First Century practices of the early Believers, we should likewise be following the rulings of Beit Hillel here,
Christians should not "follow the rulings" of any Jewish book that denies Jesus Christ. And as for the Apostle Paul being a student under Gamaliel, that is true. Paul was a Pharisee. Gamaliel was a pharisee. What did Jesus think of the "rulings of the pharisees?"
Obviously these men were Pharisees...they were JEWS!!!! Jesus is/was a JEW......Paul was Jewish......and what the above scriptures have to do with Hanukkah, I know not. The Pharisees ARE part of the Biblical history.
Hey there Susan :yo:,

Did you notice the quote that I was responding to? My point was only that Christians should not be looking to the "rulings of the Pharisees" for any spiritual or religious guidance. Did Christ ever have a good word to say about the Pharisees? He condemned their manmade rules, and the unbelieving Pharisees set themselves against the Lord of Truth, Jesus Christ. Indeed, Saul the Pharisee did all he could to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ. So there is nothning in the BIBLE that would suggest any Christian should ever seek counsel from the first cerntury Pharisees to learn how to behave as Christians. Correct?

This exhibits major error of some segments of the "Messianic" movement. They despise truly Christian traditions and then teach people to follow the rules of first century Jews who rejected Jesus. I think that's a real problem.

I pray that peace and love and all good thing be your's in Christ Jesus our Lord!

Richard

Ps: As for your comment that "Richard, I think you are taking this out of context......and this is "only" your opinion." - well, I guess that's "only" your opinion, correct? Conversations don't get too far running down that road, do they?

sula

12-08-2007, 10:07 AM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-08-2007, 10:36 AM

You are exactly correct Richard....."opinions" are just that...and everyone has one.....I have mine also. The Messianic movement is not w/out it's diversities/problems as is the so called "christian" church of today. You put 3 Baptists, Methodists, whatevers in a room and you will have numerous opinions.
You got that right, sister! Part of me wishes it weren't so, but part of me delights in the diversity. I just wish folks differed on the "artistic" part of the faith and not on the foundation of it!

I don't believe for one minute this is the way the Lord our God intended it to be but we are human after all and we think we know best....better than God. The Pharisees are not worse/different than the "who's" we have today throwing their teachings/opinions around. The Pharisees could not agree either.

Excellent point. I am sure Paul retained much of what he learned as a Pharisee. Indeed, it was the Pharisees (as opposed to the Saducees) who held to the Hope of the Resurrection!
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

And the reason being is that when we get away from God's teachings, then we err and become confused. We gotta stick to the teachings of God and I know of only one place to go for those teachings. THE WORD.....as it is written..... The reason Jesus is condemning the Pharisees is because they had left the teachings of God.

100% Agreement! Amen! :thumb:

Jesus followed every teaching of HIS Father that was laid out in the OT. That is why HE is the perfect subsitute Lamb.....you see, that is where the true "WAY" is.....the NT is full of one argument after another......one desciple fussing w/another. Paul's entire ministry was about pulling believers "OUT" of legalism and back to the God provided teachings.....the Hebraic teachings. The NT believers and their "new" ideas were never intended to "replace" the teachings of the Father's. Compare the size of the OT to the NT......the OT had alot more to say than the NT. The NT is the recorded FULLFILLEMENT of God's promises and prophecies of the OT and that fullfillment is Jesus Christ....our salvation Lamb......NOT the replacement of everything in the OT. Jesus was not the "new and improved" message of the OT...HE was/IS the culmination of all of the "above" so to speak...not the replacement.

This paragraph brings up some issues that I would love to discuss with you. The Gospel is not merely "the Hebraic teachings" - the New Testament is the proclamation of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus and most of its message is in the OT only in types and shadows. The explicit message of salvation by grace through faith is explicitly declared only in the New Testament. This is the Gospel, the Good News, that you would never know if you only had a Hebrew Tanakh.

I agree that Christ is the fulfillment, not the replacement. Just like the Church is the fulfillment and blossoming of True Israel, not the replacement of fleashly Israel.

There is much to discuss here. I would be delighted to explore these ideas with you. I believe that the body of Christ could greatly benefit if we could work together to articulate the truth of God's Word on these point.

God bless you and keep you in His Perfect Peace!

Richard

sula

12-08-2007, 11:05 AM

I will be willing to attempt to discuss these issues w/you. But please understand, I am not the student that you are nor am I as well read as you are....but I do KNOW what I know....so far.....but God is not finished w/me and I am a work in progress.

I get a bit uncomfortable and perhaps this is in a lack of my understanding.....but this New Covenant/Old Covenant. As I see it, the so called New Covenant is the same......it is the fulfillment of the OC. The scriptures of the OT which really means 'covenant" is full of scriptures/prophecies of the coming Messiah, Jesus. I don't think there should be any separation between the two "testaments".....which are really covenants. God's planned never changed.....providing a Messiah was always HIS plan. The Bible should not be a divided piece of work......it is ONE continuational work of the HOLY WORD of God. Gen to Rev.....non-stop......no division.

Let me remind you that the entire Book...the Bible is ALL Hebrew...written by Hebrews, inspired of God to the Hebrews.....they ALL were Hebrews, Jesus is Hebrew, He came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Fleshy Israel???? Not sure what you mean here......fleshy as in sinful flesh???? Well, we certainly cannot leave out the "fleshy" Gentiles, now can we.

The discussion has begun, I guess.......

Richard Amiel McGough

12-08-2007, 11:55 AM

I will be willing to attempt to discuss these issues w/you. But please understand, I am not the student that you are nor am I as well read as you are....but I do KNOW what I know....so far.....but God is not finished w/me and I am a work in progress.

Hey there Susan,

I think we are COMPLETE EQUALS when it comes to discussing Scripture. Sure, we have different backgrounds and different levels of knowledge, but that only means that we can teach each other things that we otherwise wouldn't know. Our differences can be the source of much benefit for all parties concerned. The only potential problems I see are 1) If I ignored your valid points by hiding behind my supposed "knowledge" or 2) if you ignored my valid points by hiding behind your supposed "lack of knowledge."

Let us join together in the spirit of peace to search out the Word of God. It really can be a joy!

I get a bit uncomfortable and perhaps this is in a lack of my understanding.....but this New Covenant/Old Covenant. As I see it, the so called New Covenant is the same......it is the fulfillment of the OC.

This is an important issue. God did not say that the New Covenant was as "fulfillment" of the Old. On the contrary, God contrasted the two covenants, pointing out their difference, namely, that He would write His Law on our hearts rather than external tablets of stone as at Mt. Sinia:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The scriptures of the OT which really means 'covenant" is full of scriptures/prophecies of the coming Messiah, Jesus. I don't think there should be any separation between the two "testaments".....which are really covenants. God's planned never changed.....providing a Messiah was always HIS plan. The Bible should not be a divided piece of work......it is ONE continuational work of the HOLY WORD of God. Gen to Rev.....non-stop......no division.

I agree completely that the Bible is a unified book, but Scripture itself makes a distinction between the Old and the New Covenants, so I must do the same. Jesus said:
KJV Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Here "testament" means "covenant" of course.

And I agree completely that "God's plan" never changed, but I suspect then that we may differ about what His plan is. I say that the "Jewish stage" was just that - a stage in His unfolding plan of Redemption to bring forth the Christian Gospel of the Jewish Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World, the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. That is God's plan. It has never changed. It never will change. When God called forth Abraham He promised that he would be the father of many nations. The word nations is "goyim" which is usually translated as "Gentiles." God's plan was never restricted to the ethnic nation of the fleshly children of Abraham. God was always planning to bless the world through Jesus Christ. He called forth Abraham, and the Jews, to accomplish this purpose. They are not an "end in themselves."

Let me remind you that the entire Book...the Bible is ALL Hebrew...written by Hebrews, inspired of God to the Hebrews.....they ALL were Hebrews, Jesus is Hebrew, He came to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
This point is very dubious. I have researched the original Scriptures at great depth and have found strong evidence that all but three NT books were originally composed in Greek. The three possible exceptions are Matthew, Hebrews, and Revelation.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that the NT as a whole was originally composed in Hebrew? If so, please present it. If not, then why believe it?

Fleshy Israel???? Not sure what you mean here......fleshy as in sinful flesh???? Well, we certainly cannot leave out the "fleshy" Gentiles, now can we.

By "fleshly Israel" I mean the unbelieving children of Abraham that Paul talks about in Romans 9:
Romans 9:6-9 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
The Bible explicitly declares that that being a fleshly child of Abraham means nothing in itself. Only the children of promise are counted as "seed." God never made any promises to fleshly Israel.

God bless you sister. I really look forward to discussing these important issues. Now I gotta get back to my mundane work ...

Richard

sula

12-08-2007, 12:31 PM

I just completed listening to Parts A & B of this podcast teaching on the benefits/reasons/explanations there of in observing and understanding the scriptures concerning this study. I simply cannot find in anyway or matter to expand or improve on what is taught here. It appears that one will have to cut/paste or go to the website to listen to this podcast. It is very well worth it.
Shalom Chaverim!

I trust that everyone is having a blessed light-filled, Yeshua-centric Chanukkah.

*Listen to “Part A” of the audio version of this commentary from this link: http://www.graftedi n.com/audioParas hah/Chanukkah_ a.mp3

*Listen to “Part B” of the audio version of this commentary from this link: http://www.graftedi n.com/audioParas hah/Chanukkah_ b.mp3

*Download the written .pdf version from this link: http://www.graftedi n.com/images/ Parashot/ 10ChaggimChanukk ah.pdf

*Our web site can be accessed here: http://www.graftedi n.com/

“Reisheet chokhmah yirat ADONAI!”

(The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the LORD!)

--

Ariel ben-Lyman HaNaviy

Torah Teacher

http://www.graftedi n.com/

Richard Amiel McGough

12-08-2007, 04:57 PM

sula

12-08-2007, 09:17 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-08-2007, 10:00 PM

My answer to your post Richard is in that podcast link I sent you. I simply cannot say it any better...far from it......and actually there is nothing else to say/add. To discuss this further would only prove to be redundant. I did say I was open to further discussion however, that was prior to my hearing the podcast today.........I might mention here that the podcast includes even more info than the written text.
That's unfortunate for three reasons.

1) The podcast is not in a form I can directly reference on this forum without typing out a transcript.

2) I have no idea which parts of the podcast you thought were relevent to the issue we are discussing.

3) The last time you said that an article from a website "said everything perfectly" actually said almost nothing at all relevent to the topic we were discussing.

So if I were to speak frankly, I would have to tell you that your response seems like a cop-out to me. It would be very simple for you to respond directly to my direct questions if you thought you had good answers. For example, you asserted that the New Testament was written in Hebrew. I asked for evidence. You have given none. You said that the New Covenant was a continuation of the old, I quoted Scritpure that showed it was not, and you have not responded to that point. You said you didn't understand what I meant by "fleshly Israel" and I explained that, but you did not respond.

So basically, you have not responded to anything I wrote in that detailed response I gave to you.

Richard

sula

12-08-2007, 10:42 PM

No, Richard, I am not using this as a cop out. This states everything I believe in and agree with. ALL of it. EVERY BIT of it......Hanukkah, Torah, Law vs Grace, NT, Grace, Salvation all part of one package..no separation of one from the other.

Yes, the other pod cast I gave you was in error...it was not the one I thought it was and I apologize for that...

Also, I did not say specifically state that the whole Bible was written in Hebrew....I said it was written TO the Hebrews, BY Hebrews w/the exception of Luke perhaps...I am aware that most of the Nt was written in Greek as that was the language of the time. The OT as I understand it was mostly written in Aramic as that was mostly what was spoken. You misquoted me there.....or took a bit of liberty.....as you have done on other posts......I did not say anything the first time and I should have immediately this time and will most certainly next time. I've noticed how you will change one or two words.......quite subtly. I let it go......but I won't any more....I did notice......it did not slip my notice. But anyway, if you do not want to listen or comment on the podcast, that is your choice......but Ariel Ben Lymen speaks the truth on this subject. That my story and I'm sticking to it. I wish more people would listen to it.......it does make alot of sense. I grew up as a christian in the baptist church and I heard all this NT.....no law.....once saved always saved , pre-trib rapture nonsense....sorry don't mean to step on anyone's toes here but nothing about the "rest of the story" was ever mentioned. W/o thd OT, we woul have no NT. If one wants to understand the NT, they need to study in the OT. The NT means so much more to me now that I am learning of the the OT. Listen to the podcast.......w/an open heart that there just might be something here. I asked God for knowledge.....I asked for the golden delicious apples.....why would God give me a barrel of rotten apples. That goes directly against everything HE stands for. There IS something here, Richard.......step out of you box and give it a shot. You might be surprised.

sula

12-08-2007, 10:54 PM

VIRTUAL CHANUKAH
POSTED 08 DECEMBER, 2007

Teaching on 1 Maccabees 4:26-61

commentary by J.K. McKee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those of the foreigners who escaped went and reported to Lysias all that had happened. When he heard it, he was perplexed and discouraged, for things had not happened to Israel as he had intended, nor had they turned out as the king had commanded him. But the next year he mustered sixty thousand picked infantrymen and five thousand cavalry to subdue them. They came into Idumea and encamped at Bethzur, and Judas met them with ten thousand men (1 Maccabees 4:26-29).

1 Maccabees 4:26-61 is a selection of text that many people in the Messianic community will be reading, as it has been published with a variety of Torah reading schedules by some Messianic ministries. In our examination of the history surrounding Chanukah, I think it is prudent for us to examine a selection from this reading, to get a good idea about what was taking place during this time. All too often, we hear 'about the Maccabees' or 'about the Greeks,' but we often do not delve into what was actually going on.

Because of the uncertain authorship and dating of 1 Maccabees, it is not accepted as canonical Scripture by Jews and Protestants. George A. F. Knight speculates that 'Our author must have been living after the close of the period of which he writes (134 B.C.)…On the other hand, the author shows no effect of the advent in Palestine of the Romans, which occurred in 63 B.C. We suppose therefore that he wrote before that time. It is more than likely, then, that he finished his book soon after 104.'[1] The text as we have it today 'has come down to us in Greek. But that is certainly a translation from the original Hebrew text.'[2] The version of 1 Maccabees that we have was compiled with other Apocryphal texts as an adjunct for the Greek Septuagint, which is used in English translations today.

Today’s teaching comes from a section that begins after Judas Maccabeus defeats Gorgias at Emmaus, and right before he meets Lysias in battle. It demonstrates that at first the Seleucids thought they could easily defeat Judas and his guerilla army, with 'five thousand infantry and a thousand picked cavalry' (1 Maccabees 4:1), but are defeated by an inferior force of three thousand. I would recommend that you read 1 Maccabees 4:1-25 to get an important backdrop of what we will be examining today, as we see the Maccabees gaining momentum are greatly feared by their enemies.

26 Those of the foreigners who escaped went and reported to Lysias all that had happened.

Prior to Lysias’ engagement with Judas Maccabeus, 'foreigners' are said to have escaped and make their way to him. Previously, we are told, 'The Gentiles were crushed and fled into the plain…and all those in the rear fell by the sword. They pursued them to Gazara, and to the plains of Idumea, and to Azotus and Jamnia; and three thousand of them fell (1 Maccabees 4:14-15). The Greek text calls these men allophulos (allofuloß), meaning, 'of another tribe, foreign' (LS).[3] Knight indicates that these were mercenaries who were 'concerned only to earn their wages as soldiers.'[4] This might account for some of the reason why, as originally of a force of 5,000, they run from Judas Maccabeus and his army. But at the same time, it was Judas who appeals to his army, 'Remember how our fathers were saved at the Red Sea, when Pharaoh with his forces pursued them' (1 Maccabees 4:9). Judas further rallies his troops with the battle cry, 'And now let us cry to Heaven, to see whether he will favor us and remember his covenant with our fathers and crush this army before us today. Then all the Gentiles will know that there is one who redeems and saves Israel' (1 Maccabees 4:10-11).

Being defeated by those rallied from images of the Israelites’ Exodus from Egypt, these mercenaries wearily come to the feet of Lysias. Lysias was an extremely important man in the empire of Antichous Epiphanes, having been 'appointed regent of Syria and guardian of his son while he attacked Persia…Lysias sent Ptolemy, Nicanor, and Gorgias with a large army against Judas, but the Jews soundly defeated them near Emmaus' (ISBE).[5]

If you were in Lysias’ position, and you had just sent these men to defeat a rag-tag Jewish militia, and here the army comes fleeing for their lives—even if they were just mercenaries—what would you be thinking? You would be furious. You would feel that your subordinates could not take care of a simple task as crushing the Jewish uprising. Later, you might be thinking, that a bigger problem needs to be resolved. Lysias himself would now have to take care of it, as he was probably shaking his head in anger and disgust as to what had just transpired.

27 When he heard it, he was perplexed and discouraged, for things had not happened to Israel as he had intended, nor had they turned out as the king had commanded him.

V. 27 describes the attitude that Lysias had as he was hearing the report from the battlefield. The REB says 'He was stunned at the news, bitterly disappointed.' This is because Lysias’ plans of a simple military defeat of the Jewish guerillas had not worked. Now his army was defeated, and the revolt was gaining momentum. Lysias’ well-laid plans had not been executed as he had ordered. But it is not as though Lysias is just furious about his subordinates’ failure; he is also very concerned about himself, being the regent of Syria. Notice that the text tells us, 'the result was quite the opposite to what the king had ordered' (NJB). If you were in the position of either Lysias’ subordinates, or Lysias himself, you would be very concerned about your own life. In ancient times, most generals and military leaders who failed in combat were either expected to commit suicide in the face of defeat, or often faced execution.

Of course, we all know the real reason why Lysias is given this negative report: the God of Israel won out over His enemies. Knight makes the important observation, 'The Jews were fired by loyalty, faith, and trust both in God’s covenant and in the rightness of their cause.'[6] We need to understand that for the author of 1 Maccabees, the Jewish people are 'Israel.' This is difficult for many non-Jewish Believers in the Two-House Messianic community to understand, because while seeing themselves as a part of Israel, they often relegate the Jewish people only to the place of 'Judah.' However, at this time in Biblical history, 'Judah' was all that remained of recognizable Israel. The Apostle Paul himself refers to the Jewish people as 'Israel' in his teaching on the olive tree in Romans chs. 9-11. He says, 'they were entrusted with the oracles of God' (Romans 3:2).

During Chanukah, when we recall these events, we get to consider what the 'oracles of God' actually are. Many immediately conclude that these oracles are the Torah, and this would be a correct answer. But more and more studies into the Jewish background of the New Testament are revealing that when 'the Law' (Grk. nomos, nomoß) is spoken of by the Apostolic writers, it is in a much looser sense than just the Biblical books of Genesis-Deuteronomy. It does, in fact, include some of the Oral Torah. Are oracles from God found in the Oral Torah? A good litmus test to see whether or not someone in the independent Messianic community believes so, or does not believe so, is whether or not they are celebrating Chanukah. Let us not forget that if Judah, the recognizable remnant of Israel, had been destroyed, there would have been not only no operating Temple or Torah, but no Messiah to come into the world to save us from our sins.

28 But the next year he mustered sixty thousand picked infantrymen and five thousand cavalry to subdue them. 29 They came into Idumea and encamped at Bethzur, and Judas met them with ten thousand men.

V. 28 describes how seriously Lysias was concerned about the forces of Judas Maccabeus. In spite of how it is variably translated, the fact that Lysias takes 'the Jewish threat' seriously is obvious. He assembles 'sixty thousand picked infantrymen and five thousand cavalry.' His does this with 'the intention of finishing off the Jews' (NJB). Perhaps we can assume that Lysias knew the power of the Jewish religion, and had heard of the stories of the God of Israel. In spite of having superior numbers, as a polytheist Lysias would have believed that Israel’s God could intervene on their behalf. He would have believed his gods to be superior, but even so he wants the rebellion crushed in a speedy manner before God can act.

Knight explains that these events probably occurred in the Fall of 164 B.C., and that 'Lysias must have marched from Antioch S down the coast to Philistia, turned E, then N. He was now in the land where David had led his freebooters and where Saul and Jonathan had fought against the Philistines.'[7] Whereas the previous force only encountered a Jewish army of 3,000, here Lysias encounters an army of 10,000. Still outnumbered more than 6 to 1, there must have been an incredible amount of zeal in the Maccabees. Here they were fighting in the midst of their homeland, where their forefathers David and Jonathan, and even Saul, had fought off some of Israel’s most ruthless enemies. David S. Williams comments, 'Although Judas’s forces have grown, the Jews are still greatly outnumbered. Their subsequent victory against the larger forces assembled by Lysias carries forward the theme that strength comes from God, not from numbers.'[8]

How many of us have the courage and spiritual zeal inside of us to continue like the Maccabees? When we consider the role the enemy plays in battle, we can see that he is desperately concerned because he knows that he is fighting against God and cannot win. This was the case of Lysias as he must assume control of his forces and put down the Jewish rebellion himself. Of course, we know that he does not succeed.

Sometime in the future, Satan’s servant, known by various terms in Scripture such as the beast, the man of lawlessness, or simply the antichrist, is going to come to power. He is not going to succeed according to his master’s wishes. He is going to fail. In the end, at the end of the Millennium, Satan is going to be released to deceive the world. Satan is going to get his chance and will be in direct control of the events, not through an intermediary like the antimessiah. But he too, in the end, will fail:

'When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them' (Revelation 20:7-9).

Bibliography
Anderson, Hugh. 'Books of Maccabees,' in ABD, 4:439-454.
Brownlee, W.H. 'Books of Maccabees,' in IDB, 3:201-215.
Knight, George A. F. 'The First Book of the Maccabees,' in The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible, pp 588-599.
McEleney, Neil J. 'The First Book of the Maccabees,' in The Oxford Study Bible, pp 1197-1232.
Williams, David S. '1 Maccabees,' in New Interpreter’s Study Bible, pp 1551-1593.

NOTES

[1] George A.F. Knight, 'The First Book of the Maccabees,' in Charles M. Laymon, ed., The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible (Nashville: Abingdon, 1971), 588.

[2] Ibid.

[3] H.G. Lidell and R. Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994), 38.

[4] Knight, in Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible, 593.

[5] J.J. Scott, Jr., 'Lysias,' in in G.W. Bromiley, ed. et. al., International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 4 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988), 3:192.

[6] Knight, in Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible, 593.

[7] Knight, in Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible, 593.

[8] David S. Williams, '1 Maccabees,' in Walter J. Harrelson, ed., et. al. New Interpreter’s Study Bible, NRSV (Nashville: Abingdon, 2003),1563.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-08-2007, 11:14 PM

No, Richard, I am not using this as a cop out. This states everything I believe in and agree with. ALL of it. EVERY BIT of it......Hanukkah, Torah, Law vs Grace, NT, Grace, Salvation all part of one package..no separation of one from the other.

Ok - I'll listen to them with an open heart and mind and let you know how they (and the Spirit of God) speaks to me! :yo:

Yes, the other pod cast I gave you was in error...it was not the one I thought it was and I apologize for that...

Ah, I understand. Things like that happen all the time. Thanks for letting me know. Apologies accepted, of course!

Also, I did not say specifically state that the whole Bible was written in Hebrew....I said it was written TO the Hebrews, BY Hebrews w/the exception of Luke perhaps...I am aware that most of the Nt was written in Greek as that was the language of the time.

Oh! I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. Thanks for clearling that up. But actually I would say it was written BY Hebrews but not only TO them, since Paul directly addressed the Gentiles too. "For I speak to you Gentiles .." (Rom 11:13).

The OT as I understand it was mostly written in Aramic as that was mostly what was spoken.

Actually, very little is written in Aramaic (in Daniel and Ezra), the rest is all Hebrew.

You misquoted me there.....or took a bit of liberty.....as you have done on other posts......I did not say anything the first time and I should have immediately this time and will most certainly next time. I've noticed how you will change one or two words.......quite subtly. I let it go......but I won't any more....I did notice......it did not slip my notice.

You just made an accusation with out any evidence. That is contrary to Scripture. I have no idea what you are talking about and so am unable to respond. And you also added an insinuation that I did it on purpose with subtley like the serpent in the garden. That seems to indicate a bitter spirit. Please accept my appologies if I have offended you in some way. That was never my intent. I have never "subtly" changed "one or two words."

So now you have obligated yourself to proving your accusation with evidence (remember, all our words are recorded here) or publicly retracting it.

But anyway, if you do not want to listen or comment on the podcast, that is your choice......but Ariel Ben Lymen speaks the truth on this subject.
We'll see if he speaks the truth. I'm going to write a full review.

I wish more people would listen to it.......it does make alot of sense. I grew up as a christian in the baptist church and I heard all this NT.....no law.....once saved always saved , pre-trib rapture nonsense....sorry don't mean to step on anyone's toes here but nothing about the "rest of the story" was ever mentioned.

Stepping on toes? No way! Your singing in my choir when it comes to the absurdity of modern pop Christian eschatology like the pre-trib rapture that I can not find anywhere in the Bible.

And now you know why I am so upset with modern pop Christianity. After years of going to a Baptist church, it seems you still do not understand the Biblical relation between Law and Grace! Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying its your fault. Your pastors never taught you the truth. Probably because they were too busy trying warning you about the antihrist who was goiung to come back in 1981.

W/o thd OT, we woul have no NT. If one wants to understand the NT, they need to study in the OT.

Absolutley correct. But without the NT, the OT is DEAD.

The NT means so much more to me now that I am learning of the the OT.

I study the OT as the WORD OF GOD. I consider it every bit as significant as the NT. I see an absolutely UNIFIED BIBLE - one book made up of 66 books. All inspired by the True God.

Listen to the podcast.......w/an open heart that there just might be something here. I asked God for knowledge.....I asked for the golden delicious apples.....why would God give me a barrel of rotten apples. That goes directly against everything HE stands for. There IS something here, Richard.......step out of you box and give it a shot. You might be surprised.
God would never give you rotten apples. But He also would not give me rotten apples. Your mistake has nothing to do with what God has given you. Your mistake is that you teach people to "keep Torah" when God Almighty has made that impossible by declaring that if you do you will lose Christ.

We can find the solution to this issue quite simply and directly. Tell me what Paul meant when he wrote this:
Galatians 5:1-6 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 ¶ Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Can a man keep Torah and reject circumcision?
Can a man keep the NT and not reject circumcision?

Answer those questions and you will have answered the question if Christians should "keep Torah."

Richard

Richard Amiel McGough

12-09-2007, 12:35 AM

No, Richard, I am not using this as a cop out. This states everything I believe in and agree with. ALL of it. EVERY BIT of it......Hanukkah, Torah, Law vs Grace, NT, Grace, Salvation all part of one package..no separation of one from the other.

Hi Susan,

I read the PDF file that you linked (http://www.graftedin.com/images/Parashot/10ChaggimChanukkah.pdf). It began very good ... he presented an orthodox view of the Divinity of Jesus and everything seemed quite biblical until he tried to deal with the question of circumcision and obeying Torah. Here is the section where he erred:

The Righteousness of God
By Torah Teacher Ariel ben-Lyman HaNaviy

In his letter to Rome, Sha'ul wrote in 3:28 that God considers a person righteous on the grounds of trusting, which has nothing to do with the Torah (or as in KJV “deeds of the Law”). On the surface this seems problematic for my own teachings that consider Torah observance to be of great significance. Yet, the problem here is really more a matter of hermeneutics than of theology. What Sha’ul is really talking about when he employs the Greek phrase “ergon nomos”, translated here as “works of Law” is in actuality a technical phrase that the Judaisms of Sha’ul’s day employed to speak of the halakhah, that is, the proper way in which a Jew is to walk out Torah. Indeed, the prevailing view of the sages of the 1st Century held to the common belief that Isra'el and Isra'el alone shared a place in the world to come. Thus, if a non-Jew wished to enter into HaShem’s blessings and promises, such a person had to convert to Judaism first. To be sure, this is one of the primary arguments delineated in the letter to the Galatians.

But for Sha’ul no such ‘man-made” conversion policy existed in Scripture!
By contrast, Sha'ul taught most assuredly that Gentiles were grafted into Isra'el the same way that Avraham was counted as righteous by God in B’resheet (Genesis) chapter 15: faith in the promised Word of the LORD. Thus, the phrase “works of Law” has a Hebrew counterpart: ma’asei haTorah. What meaneth ma’asei haTorah? The Dead Sea Scrolls used this phrase as well, and since the discovery of those manuscripts we have now come to know that it refers to “some of the precepts of the Torah”, as adjudicated by the halakhah and by the particular community wielding the most influence. To be sure, the halakhah that teaches Gentile inclusion only by way of conversion (read most often as “circumcision” in Galatians) was naturally at odds with the True Gospel of Gentile inclusion by faith in Yeshua plus nothing! If we understand that quite often Sha'ul’s use of the term circumcision in Galatians is actually shorthand for “the man-made ritual that seeks to turn Gentiles into Jews” then the letter begins to make more sense Hebraically and contextually.

With this knowledge at hand we are now prepared to better interpret Sha'ul’s pasuk, “a person is considered righteous by God on the grounds of trusting which has nothing to do with the Torah…” as really saying, “a person is considered righteous by God on the grounds of trusting which has nothing to do with the conversion policy that seeks to make Gentiles into Jews first”!

There is the error, plain for all to see - underlined, bold, red. There is absolutley NOTHING in the Bible that suggests Paul was talking about any "man-made ritual." On the contrary, it is perfectly clear that Paul was talking about a primary command of Judaism - the Law of Circumcision given by Almighty God in the first book of the Torah to Abraham, the great father of our faith! This can not be disputed because he developed the same argument in Romans where he explicitly talked about Abraham receiving the sign of circumcision from Almighty God:
Romans 4:9-12 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Paul NEVER talked about circumcision as a mere "‘man-made' conversion policy." Paul was talking about the circumcision commandment that father Abraham received straight from the mouth of Almighty God:
Genesis 17:1-14 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an >>>everlasting covenant<<<, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. These are the fundamental Scriptures that the self-exalting "Torah Teacher Ariel ben-Lyman HaNaviy" (he calls himself "HaNaviy" which means "The Prophet!" :doh:) had to twist and pervert to "prove" his false doctrine of Torah Observance. He perverted the New Testament and twisted Paul's words by saying that he was talking about some meaningless human ritual, when in fact he was talking about one of the most significant covenants that Almighty God made with our father Abraham.

The "Prophet" Ariel ben-Lyman perverts Scripture to lead people back into the bondage of the Law.

Richard

White

12-10-2007, 09:49 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-11-2007, 12:30 AM

Hi Everybody, but especially Richard.

Circumcise then the foreskin of your heart and stiffen your neck no more -
Deuteronomy 10:16

I always found this verse fascinating - It ties circumcision together with obedience in a very illuminating way.

Hi Monique,

Yes, I agree, it shows the spiritual meaning of circumcision which is what it means in the New Testament.

Richard's questions:
Can a man keep Torah and reject circumcision?
No
Can a man keep the NT and not reject circumcision?
Yes (see below)

This article is about male circumcision. For Judaism's circumcision ritual, see Brit milah.

Circumcision is the removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis.[1] The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and cædere (meaning "to cut").

Circumcision predates recorded human history, with pictures in stone-age cave drawings and Ancient Egyptian tombs, though some pictures may be open to interpretation.[2][3][4] Male circumcision is a religious commandment in Judaism as well as in Islam,[5][6] and customary in some Oriental Orthodox and other Christian churches in Africa.[7]

Circumcision is most common in the Middle East, the USA and parts of Africa and Asia.

After all are not most Americans circumcised at birth, unwittingly following a ritual from the Old Testament, so I would say "yes" to your second question, RIchard. For those who don't know, Circumcision became the purifying tool the LORD used to get HIS PEOPLE into the Promised Land, therefore, the verse : Circumcise then the forskin of your heart
and stiffen your neck no more. Shalom !

Shalom & Happy Hanukkah - 7th night
Monique
I think you misunderstood me, and the BIBLE. The fact that some folks circumcise their children for health or social reasons means absolutely nothing in this discussion. Isn't that obvious?

When I asked "Can a man keep the NT and not reject circumcision?" I was talking about the BIBLE that says "if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing" (Gal 5:2). Your answer seems like word games to me. It doesn't deal with what the BIBLE is talking about. It doesn't deal with why Christians have always rejected the Judaisers who demand that we go back to "Torah keeping." Do you now understand what I am talking about? I'm talking about the plain teaching of the New Testament that warns us not to be entangled with the dead works of "keeping Torah." You do understand this, don't you? I mean, it is the topic we are talking about!

So let's try this one more time:

Does the NT teaching about physical circumcision contradict the command given in the Torah? If not, why not?

I say the answer is obviously "yes" because the Torah COMMANDS that every male must be circumcised, whereas Paul says that we MUST NOT OBEY THE TORAH in this case or we will lose Christ.

This is why this issue is so very important. The NT declares that the teaching of "Torah Observance" is ANATHEMA (ACCURSED, Galatians 1:9) because that would be a different Gospel.

The fact that this is what Paul is talking about is easily proven in many ways. For example, when legalistic Judaisers from James came, Peter fell into their ERROR and started eating kosher again. Paul told him to his face that he was wrong. This is just one example of the theme that runs through the whole book.

"Circumcise then the forskin of your heart and stiffen your neck no more" means that we must not stiffen our necks against the WORD OF GOD - and God's Word declares that Chirst fulfilled the law. Physical circumcision means nothing. God hates "Torah keeping" because He gave you Christ and wants you to receive His Gospel. That's why God destroyed His Temple and scattered the unbelieving Jews out of His land. God made it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to "obey Torah" because He doesn't want you to even try! God would HATE it if you offered a dead bloody physcial lamb in place of His Son Jesus Christ. So all the commands of the Torah are fulfilled in Him. No more physical temples. No more physical circumcision. No more physical Sabbath keeping. The Torah was just a shadow of Christ. The Light of the World is here. The Reality has replaced the Shadow.

Let Christ be your all in all. Do not replace HIM with dead works of Torah!

Peace in Christ!

Richard

White

12-12-2007, 07:47 PM

Hi RIchard,
I'm not playing any word games.
Actually I wanted to research which countries circumcise and which ones don't. Most of Europe is uncircumcised (and that might be the reason why they are so godless) while America, Israel and the Arab Countries circumcise. I always looked at Deuteronomy 10:16 as nailing the desires of the flesh to the cross. Most babies in America have no choice but they get circumcised automatically for health reasons, but I wonder whether even an unknown act can bring blessings from above? Just a thought...

I found these verses interesting:
John 7:22
Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath.

John 7:23
Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? -

Circumcision and Sabbath all in one verse, spoken by JESUS / Y'SHUA, who was so misunderstood then, and misunderstood even today.

*************
Richard says:
This is why this issue is so very important. The NT declares that the teaching of "Torah Observance" is ANATHEMA (ACCURSED, Galatians 1:9) because that would be a different Gospel.
*******
Monique quotes Galatians:

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Richard, Are Paul's words not directed to the Gentiles ?His Mission field is the Gentiles and he is greatly hated by the Jews even today because of this teaching which draws Jews away from Torah.

Is it amazing then that Jews and Christians have not been able to get together and jump over those hurdles? Yet that is what is needed and I pray that the LORD will open the eyes of both sides, without taking anything away from the LORD'S SACRIFICE on the Cross.

******************
Richard says:
The fact that this is what Paul is talking about is easily proven in many ways. For example, when legalistic Judaisers from James came, Peter fell into their ERROR and started eating kosher again. Paul told him to his face that he was wrong. This is just one example of the theme that runs through the whole book.
**********************
Reply:
I always found Pauls words difficult - did Paul not have Timothy circumcised in Acts 16 so that he caused no offense to the Jews? I wonder what Peter would have said to Paul in that case ? Something like "You preach that circumcision is no longer the LAW but then you have Timothy circumcised? Hypocrite!" It works both ways, does it not?

But the LORD worked with me on Matthew 5:17 - 20 in 1999, which are PLAIN spoken words which might illuminate the matter. Let's see what JESUS HIMSELF is saying ;
Matthew 5:17-20

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
(Let's not stop here but continue reading, please....)
18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

These are not my words, but the pure unchanged Words of our LORD & SAVIOR, as plain as can be. If Jesus meant that this is abolished once he goes to the cross, why is this not stated here. As a matter of fact, he made the "LAW" a lot harder - see following verses in Matthew 5:21ff.

******************************
Richard writes:
"Circumcise then the forskin of your heart and stiffen your neck no more" means that we must not stiffen our necks against the WORD OF GOD - and God's Word declares that Christ fulfilled the law. Physical circumcision means nothing. God hates "Torah keeping" because He gave you Christ and wants you to receive His Gospel. That's why God destroyed His Temple and scattered the unbelieving Jews out of His land. God made it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to "obey Torah" because He doesn't want you to even try! God would HATE it if you offered a dead bloody physcial lamb in place of His Son Jesus Christ. So all the commands of the Torah are fulfilled in Him. No more physical temples. No more physical circumcision. No more physical Sabbath keeping. The Torah was just a shadow of Christ. The Light of the World is here. The Reality has replaced the Shadow.

Let Christ be your all in all. Do not replace HIM with dead works of Torah!
**************************
Richard, please calm down - nothing is taken away from our LORD JESUS CHRIST by following HIS WAYS. HE is the LOVE of my life and that is why I want to learn more about HIS WAYS. I'm kind of PAUL IN REVERSE - but I would never give up JESUS / Y'SHUA for anything. HE IS THE LOVE OF MY LIFE and HE died for my sins as well as yours.

Thank you for making my point - I am learning about the JEWISH WAY OF LIFE because my Boss is a Jewish Carpenter and I feel closer to HIM if I can understand HIS JEWISH ways, even though that it is HIS BLOOD that set me free, it is HIS LIFESTYLE that is so unique and lovely and full of surprises. Just let's take Hanukkah which came to a close sundown tonight. To celebrate a miracle that happened almost 2200 years ago, worldwide by every religious Jew and others as well, can only bring us closer to the GOD OF ISRAEL or the Israel of God, whichever you prefer. In John 10:22 Jesus was on His way to the temple on the Feast of Dedication - on the way to HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, the Synagogue. We know that JESUS / Y'SHUA is the LIGHT of the world, but HE still went to the Synagogue to celebrate Hanukkah. Yes He did!

The 8 candles on the Hanukkah Menorah are lit with the 9th Candle, because the 9th candle is the "Servant" candle - just like Jesus came to "serve", so that the 8 other candles can be lit and just give light without being used to Create the Light. Jesus IS the LIGHT and the CREATOR of LIGHT and HE is waiting to set us all on fire with the Truth, because that's who JESUS is. "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME!" Jesus / Y'shua celebrated Hanukkah, that is good enough for me. It is actually a beautiful celebration and very peaceful, but of course celebrating Hanukkah does not get me to Heaven. It is by the BLOOD OF JESUS that one is saved. Period.

Now to finish out this Hanukkah Post, this was the reading this Morning in the Catholic Church, and it was definately a great Climax for the 8th day of Hanukkah. Just listen to this :

10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."
******
Let us have Peace knowing that we serve the Prince of Peace and that He died for all people, even the Jews who have rejected HIS Sacrifice to this very day. But may the LORD open our eyes, our ears, our hearts, to understand and to love one another because JESUS is our LORD and SAVIOR and ultimately HE will bring SHalom / Peace to all who follow HIS WAY, HIS TRUTH and HIS LIGHT. (Isaiah 2:2-2.5)

Shalom to Jerusalem & the Holy Land
Monique

kathryn

12-13-2007, 11:25 AM

Hello Monique.....I have a very dear friend who feels exactly as you do. My question to you is: "What you believe it means, to 'cast out Hagar the bondwoman and her son'? Blessings Sis, Kathryn

White

12-13-2007, 04:36 PM

Dear Kathryn,

This should be a new thread - and not be under this Hanukkah post - if you don't mind. I will answer as soon as possible, but I'll be looking for another thread. I'm a Jeweler and this is my busy time, thus I have some time restraints. Also, would you please elaborate on your question - Hagar is obviously the bondwoman with Ishamel her son, while Sarah is the Freewoman with Isaac her son. God's Covenant is with Father Abraham, Father Isaac and Father Jacob = 12 tribes of Israel - Genesis 49

I'll be looking forward to your new thread - Merry Christmas & belated Happy Hanukkah
Shalom
Monique

PS: It is the LORD who spoke to me about Judaism, I did not search it out -
starting on 1/1/1998 - but being OBEDIENT, I had to follow His orders just like Paul had to follow Y'SHUA OF NAZARETH against his own wishes. That's what I mean by "Paul in reverse", Paul was sent to the Gentiles, I'm sent to witness to the Jewish People, primarily. Even my profession makes that clear:
I'm a JEWeler.

kathryn

12-13-2007, 05:37 PM

Hello Monique...I can certainly understand how busy you must be, so don't worry about the response time. I will start a new thread if you still wish, when you have more time to respond. There has been alot on the subject already posted throughout the various threads, as it applies in so many areas. This applies directly to some of your comments in your Hanukkah post and it might be helpful for others of like mind,(such as my friend) if they can read your reply in context of your letter. If you have a moment, have a look at Galatians 4:21 through 31 and perhaps it will throw more light on the question. Perhaps it might be also be helpful, in order for me to understand where you are coming from, to address briefly, how you understand Heb. 7:12.."for when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. (this letter is addressed to the Hebrews)
Please don't think for a moment, that I am questioning your calling. Kathryn
Thank you for the Christmas and Hanukka blessings. May I extend the same to you and yours!
ps...I am Jewish by birth by the way:-)

White

12-13-2007, 11:11 PM

Dear Kathryn,
Let me answer with Romans 11:32 :
For GOD has shut up all in disobedience so that HE might show MERCY to all.

We are all disobedient - some more than others - and as such none of us deserve the Grace of God, but it is a free Gift made possible by the Sacrifice of our LORD Y'SHUA / JESUS.

Thank you Kathrine for understanding that it is the LORD who sent me to the Synagogue - as a matter of fact, since this is a Hanukkah Post, the first Hanukkah I attended was at Kenesseth Israel Congregation in St. Louis Park, MN, on 12/13/1998, yes exactly 10 Hanukkahs ago. I always ask the LORD to bring to me who HE wants me to talk to, thus I am sitting at this long table with all these lovely Jewish People.

But here is my post from page 5 :
****
Is is on 12/13/98 that I went to Kenesseth Israel for my first Hanakkah dinner where I met a Jewish man by the name of Goldfarb. He wanted an answer to the following question : "Do you believe that JESUS is the Son of GOd?"
I told him : "Absolutely! I'll PROVE it to you!" I pulled out my New Testament in Hebrew and opened it up to Matthew 12:8 : "For the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath!" Mr. Goldfarb was quite puzzled and did not understand. SO I said : "Aren't you keeping the Sabbath Holy?" To which he answered : "Of course, I'm a Jew!" I replied : "Then here is says that HE IS YOUR LORD!" and I put the Hebrew New Testament away. Now Mr. Goldfarb was very anxious to learn more about what I knew and before he left, he came up to me and said : "But you would not convert anybody, would you?" The Holy SPirit inspired my answer : "What do you want to convert to? Y'SHUA is a Jew! You don't have to convert. All you have to do is ACCEPT HIM!" Mr. Goldfarb smiled at me, turned away and I could see that he knew that Y'SHUA / JESUS is Messiah.
end of q uote ***

I felt led to talk to Rabbi Goldberger about conversion to Judaism, not knowing much at that time and following the Jewish Fast, Feasts and Festivals to the best of my knowledge, that was a logical step. I received Rabbi Goldbergers phone number and I called him the next day after the Hanukkah dinner. His first question was the same as Mr. Goldfarb's :
"DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD?" I thought about how we cannot DENY CHRIST if we want to enter Heaven, so I said forcefully :
"Well yes, HE is a Jewish Man, you know!" emphasis on JEWISH.
Rabbi Goldberger said : "We don't believe that God has a Son, we don't believe in THREE GODS, we believe in ONE GOD, we don't believe in Angels and life after Death. So if you want to convert you MUST RENOUNCE JESUS."

Rabbi Goldberger did not have any time to meet with me because he was going to visit Swiss Friends (God's sense of humor: I was born and raised in Zurich Switzerland)...

Then on 12/26/1998 the LORD again spoke to my
heart and sent me back to the Synagogue for the first Sabbath Morning Service. The Reading was Ezekiel 37:15-28 ~ and I will take the stick of the House of Judah, and I will take the stick of the House of Israel.... That was quite powerful especially since the LORD had revealed this exact Chapter to me earlier (especially Ezekiel 37:22 and Isaiah 49:22 for me) See my earlier post for details.

4 days later, as my house was going into forclosure, the LORD gave me the money to get it OUR OF FORECLOSURE and it has never been in foreclosure since. So I considered it a blessing from the LORD, who rewarded my faithfulness and my obedience and it goes without saying that the following Saturday I was again at the Synagogue attending their Shabbat morning service. That is how I learned about Judaism - by the guidance of the Holy SPirit and by being obedient to HIS demands / requests / truth ...

Rabbi Goldberger tolerated me for several months - I even received the Mikveh, the Jewish Purification Bath - on 5 different occasions (To purity the 5 nail wounds of Jesus / Y'SHUA, as the Holy SPirit told me quietly). I kept writing to him about Y'SHUA / JESUS quoting all the scriptures the LORD showed me. Someday it might become a book or part of a book. Of course, I never ever received a reply. But when I asked Rabbi Goldberger to accept Y'SHUA / JESUS as Messiah, he asked an Evangelical Pastor to tell me that if I returned to the Synagogue, I would be arrested. That broke my heart because I knew it broke the Heart of my LORD & SAVIOR. The "Police CHaplain Tony" even went so far as to tell me that I was a "disgrace to Christianity" - Haven't you ever read Galatians? he asked. My response : "Have you never read Matthew 5:17-21 ? Don't you want to be called GREAT in the KINGDOM OF GOD?" Pastor Police Chaplain Tony did not like my response and hung up.

I do understand the difficulties and when the time allows me I will answer your question concerning Galatians 4:21ff -
In the meantime - Shalom.

So much for my testimony, Kathryn. Are you a Jewish believer in JESUS / CHRIST? And coming from your side, do you keep any observances or none at all. I found the significance with the various Festivals amazing and I am glad that I'm able to follow them to the best of my knowledge.

Shalom
Monique

PS : The Rabbi did not chastise me for driving my car to the Synagogue, since I live 35 miles away, but I was asked to park my car further down the road and walk the 2 blocks to Shul. God is so good.

kathryn

12-14-2007, 01:06 AM

Hi Monique....Thank you for your beautiful testimony and for sharing it with me. I am blessed to hear of your courage and dedication. I have much to share with you, when I have a better idea of where you are coming from, by answering those two questions...but I understand you are pressed for time right now.
As I just wrote Richard, I've been keeping some late nights and I am falling asleep in my Ovaltine:-) Looking forward to talking to you in the near future. Your sister in Christ, Kathryn

Code breaker

12-14-2007, 09:07 PM

I'm totally confused. What do you mean when you say that the unbelieving Jews are HIS PEOPLE? The Bible says that only those who believe are "HIS PEOPLE." It doesn't matter who your mom or dad was. That's not how God defines HIS PEOPLE.

Hi Richard, Code breaker here.

I believe what White is saying is this: Jesus who currently is King and Messiah of the Gentiles i.e. the ten lost tribes of Israel, is technically still not King of Judah but in a futuristic or prophetic sense He already is.

This can be confirmed to some extent by Ezekiel using the metaphor of two sticks, one depicting Judah, and one Israel.

Ezekiel says in chapter 37:15-19 that these two sticks will be joined together and united in the Last Days, making them one house with one King, (Jesus).

The Prophet Zecheriah says this will happen when they "mourn and call upon the one they have pierced" Zecheriah 12: 10 (paraphrased). This mourning cannot occur until Judah is besieged by the nations of the earth Zecheriah 12: 2,3, or during the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's seventieth week.

In other words, Jesus who is currently King of Israel (the Gentiles), technichally still needs be officially accepted by Judah or the un-believing Jews before they can become His people as we are His people.

Happy Hanukkah Ram,

Code breaker.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-14-2007, 09:43 PM

Hey there Codebreaker! :yo:

Great to hear from you. It's been a while.

I'm totally confused. What do you mean when you say that the unbelieving Jews are HIS PEOPLE? The Bible says that only those who believe are "HIS PEOPLE." It doesn't matter who your mom or dad was. That's not how God defines HIS PEOPLE.
Hi Richard, Code breaker here.

I believe what White is saying is this: Jesus who currently is King and Messiah of the Gentiles i.e. the ten lost tribes of Israel, is technically still not King of Judah but in a futuristic or prophetic sense He already is.

That doesn't make any sense to me because I understand that "all authority" was given to Christ at His Victory, and He now is enthroned as King of kings and Lord of lords.

This can be confirmed to some extent by Ezekiel using the metaphor of two sticks, one depicting Judah, and one Israel.

Ezekiel says in chapter 37:15-19 that these two sticks will be joined together and united in the Last Days, making them one house (or one nation).

It seems clear to me that that prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost when God put His spirit in His People the Jewish Christians. God gathered the 12 tribes from all the nations of the earth, and joined the two sticks as one in Christ Jesus. That's why God said that "David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd" (Ezekiel 37:24) - obviously He was talking about Christ the Good Shepherd. This then in confirmed at the end of the prophecy:
Ezekiel 37:27-28 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

We know this was a prophecy of the church fulfilled in the first cerntury, because Paul told us that exactly:
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The reference to the Temple is obviously speaking of the New Testament Church, which is the Temple of the Living God, also known as the New Jerusalem revealed in Revelation 21:9:
Revelation 21:9-10 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

We know the New Jerusalem is the Church of God because that's what Hebrews tells us:
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfec
Thus we have a perfect integration Ezekiel 37 with the New Testament revelation of the Church of the New Covenant in Christ.

I see no future fulfillment in Ezekiel 37.

The Prophet Zahariah says this will happen when they "mourn and call upon the one they have pierced" Zechariah 12: 10 (paraphrased). This mourning cannot occur until Judah is besieged by the nations of the earth Zachariah 12: 2,3, or during the last 3 1/2 years of Daniels seventieth weak.

First, the Holy Bible declares that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled in the first century:
John 19:36-37 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. [Zechariah 12:10]
Do you agree with the Apostle John that Zech 12:10 was fulfilled? Are you suggesting there is going to be a double fulfillment? If so, why?

Second, Daniel's 70th week was also fulfilled in the first century. Otherwise the angel's words appear to be meaningless, since he said that everything would be completed in 70 weeks. He didn't say "in 70 weeks + 2000 years." There is no justification for a 2000+ year gap as far as I can see.

In other words, Jesus who is curently King of Israel (the Gentiles), technichally still needs be oficially excepted by Judah or the un-believing Jews before they can become his people as we are his people.

Happy Honukah Ram,

Code breaker.
I don't believe the theory that the Gentiles are the "ten lost tribes" but even if I did, I wouldn't believe that Jesus was only "their king" and not the King of the Jews as well as all creation. I don't believe in any of these theories that teach there is an ongoing distinction between Jews and Genitles. God joined the two sticks at Pentecost, and then He grafted the Gentiles into the Jewish Church, so now there is one new man and that's it. All this talk about Jews and a future temple and the 10 lost tribes seems to have nothing to do with anything I have read in the Bible. But I would be truly delight to dig deep into Scripture with you to determine the truth of these questions, my friend!

God's peace to you Codebreaker. I look forward to your response.

Richard

Code breaker

12-15-2007, 01:14 PM

Second, Daniel's 70th week was also fulfilled in the first century. Otherwise the angel's words appear to be meaningless, since he said that everything would be completed in 70 weeks. He didn't say "in 70 weeks + 2000 years." There is no justification for a 2000+ year gap as far as I can see.

Hi again Ram,

Let me start by asking you a question.

If Daniel's 490 years is already fulfilled, where's Jesus? Why isn't he ruling from his throne in Jerusalem? Are you in the amillennialist camp?

I can't fathom the idea that Christ first coming fulfilled all messianic Prophecies. Yes He did fulfill all spiritual prophecies that were promised to Abraham and spoken about by the prophets concerning are spiritual state including being grafted into the Israelite nation. But remember we replaced Israel only temporarily. For now there are two branches one righteous and one unrighteous. God will graft them back together at time of the fulness of gentiles. A time when all Israel will be saved. There's too many Prophecies that suggest otherwise, like Isaiah. 66:8 for instance.

That's were the gap theory comes in, I believe the 2000 years and counting time frame is being used by God to bring this about.

I believe this can be supported in part by the words of Jesus at the beginning of Jesus ministry, in Luke 4:18,19, jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 anouncing His ministry of reconciliation when he "proclaimed the year of the Lord's favor".

Interestingly Jesus roled up the scroll choosing to not finish the sentance that proclaimed God's favor becouse it ended with the words "the day of vegeance of our God". Or to put it plainly, this was the time of favor not a time of God's vegeance; at least not yet.

I know there's a group of believer's called amillennialist that say this vegeance of God was delivered in 70 AD, and that the kingdom of God and His rule is allready fulfilled through Christ Church the ekklesia. The problem I have with this allegorical view is that the prophecies pertaining to Christ Second Coming seem to have stopped being taken literally. I think this non literal stance of the events surrounding His "Second Coming" is a mistake as it was a mistake to not take His first coming literally. Look at what happened to the religous Jews of Jesus days?

Even so, I'm convinced the key to unlocking the why of why did Jesus stop in mid sentence of "proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor (he rolled up the scroll at this point) and the day of vegeance of out God," is becouse there is an unknown period of time that lies beween the favor (grace) and vegeance (wrath) that we call the gap. This gap is the time period where Christ ekklesia is being built up as a result of God's mercy on the gentiles, and his wrath against Judah (Jew's).

Ram, there seems to be two time lines, consisting of 2000 years. One that's being used to build up the Body of Christ, and one that's being used to discipline God's natural line Judah. These two time lines seem to be heading to the intersection called the abomination of desolation, spoken of by both Daniel and Jesus. This event will mark the countdown of the last 3 1/2 years before the prophecy found in Isaiah 66:8 and Ezekiel 37 among others, is fulfilled.

God bless you Ram

Code.

Richard Amiel McGough

12-15-2007, 02:42 PM

Hallo there Codebreaker! :yo:

I'm really glad you decided to join in on this discussion. I really want to dig deep with folks who hold different points of view.

Second, Daniel's 70th week was also fulfilled in the first century. Otherwise the angel's words appear to be meaningless, since he said that everything would be completed in 70 weeks. He didn't say "in 70 weeks + 2000 years." There is no justification for a 2000+ year gap as far as I can see.
Hi again Ram,

Let me start by asking you a question.

If Daniel's 490 years is already fulfilled, where's Jesus? Why isn't he ruling from his throne in Jerusalem? Are you in the amillennialist camp?

Where in Daniel 9 is there a prophecy that says Christ will be ruling from his throne in Jerusalem?

And yes, I am "amillennialist" - have you noticed that Rev 20 does not say that Christ will be ruling on earth? And that there are no prophecies anywhere in the entire Bible that say there will be a future Millennial kingdom? I have a rule that won't allow me to teach anything not clearly supported by at least two or three Scriptures. Therefore, I can not believe in a future earthly Millennial rule of Christ.

Do you recognize the New Jerusalem as the Church?

I can't fathom the idea that Christ first coming fulfilled all messianic Prophecies. Yes He did fulfill all spiritual prophecies that were promised to Abraham and spoken about by the prophets concerning are spiritual state including being grafted into the Israelite nation. But remember we replaced Israel only temporarily.

We never replaced Israel. Remember the Church born at Pentecost was made up of the Remnant of faithful Israel. Then the Gentiles were grafted in. There was never any "replacement." The unbelieving carnal children of Abraham's flesh were never given any promises by God. All of God's promises were given to the children of promise = the Church of Christ, as it is written: "Now we [Christians], brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" (Galatians 4:28).

For now there are two branches one righteous and one unrighteous. God will graft them back together at time of the fulness of gentiles. A time when all Israel will be saved. There's too many Prophecies that suggest otherwise, like Isaiah. 66:8 for instance.

Romans 11:26 does not say that "all Isreal will be saved" "after" the fulness of the Genitles comes in. The word "and so" means "in this way" not "then." As for Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Is there a reason we should not take this reference to "children" to be the same as those mentioned in Hebrews 2?
Hebrews 2:12-14 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
What makes you think Isaiah 66:8 is still future? why would you think it applies to anything other than the primary Gospel message of the entire Bible? True eschatology is the Gospel. It seems to me that a focus on carnal Israel is contrary to its most basic teachings.

That's were the gap theory comes in, I believe the 2000 years and counting time frame is being used by God to bring this about.

I believe this can be supported in part by the words of Jesus at the beginning of Jesus ministry, in Luke 4:18,19, jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1,2 anouncing His ministry of reconciliation when he "proclaimed the year of the Lord's favor".

Interestingly Jesus roled up the scroll choosing to not finish the sentance that proclaimed God's favor becouse it ended with the words "the day of vegeance of our God". Or to put it plainly, this was the time of favor not a time of God's vegeance; at least not yet.

I'm glad you brought that up! Its a perfect example of a very common error that needs correction. You are correct that Jesus stopped in midsentence because it was "not yet" the time of God's vengeance. But then Jesus declared the time of God's vengeance with absolute precision later in the same book:
Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
We know that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in the first century. We know this prophecy was fulfilled at that time because Jesus was answering the question about when the first century Temple would be destroyed. Thus we see the perfect clarity of the Holy Word. The days of vengeance came upon apostate Jerusalem in 70 AD. The passage you quoted does not support a gap theory. On the contrary, it is a primary witness to the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in the first century.

I know there's a group of believer's called amillennialist that say this vegeance of God was delivered in 70 AD, and that the kingdom of God and His rule is allready fulfilled through Christ Church the ekklesia. The problem I have with this allegorical view is that

Its not really accurate to call it an "allegorical view" because an allegory is a figure of speach used in fictional stories like "Pilgrim's Progress" where every actor plays a symbolic role, usually of an abstract concept. For example, the main character was a man named "Christian" who was attacked by a giant called "Despair" and got nearly lost in a city called "Vanity." To suggest that the preterist view treats the Bible like an allegorical story is a gross perversion of the truth. Now don't get me wrong! I'm not blaming you for this error. You've learned it from others. We are in the midst of a hermeutical war filled with erroneous polemics, (the word polemics comes straight from the Greek polemos = war) and we all know that Turth is often the the first causualty of war.

The problem I have with this allegorical view is that the prophecies pertaining to Christ Second Coming seem to have stopped being taken literally.
The "prophecies" of Christ's Second coming are filled with things that folks don't "take literally." So the first thing we need to do is to ESTABLISH the facts that we can know with great certainty, such as the first century fulfillment of the integrated prophetic complex of Daniel, Revelation, and the Olivet Discourse, and then we might have a hope to understand the prophecies of the Second Coming.

I think this non literal stance of the events surrounding His "Second Coming" is a mistake as it was a mistake to not take His first coming literally. Look at what happened to the religous Jews of Jesus days?

I would love to walk through this with you - verse by verse.

Even so, I'm convinced the key to unlocking the why of why did Jesus stop in mid sentence of "proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor (he rolled up the scroll at this point) and the day of vegeance of out God," is becouse there is an unknown period of time that lies beween the favor (grace) and vegeance (wrath) that we call the gap. This gap is the time period where Christ ekklesia is being built up as a result of God's mercy on the gentiles, and his wrath against Judah (Jew's).

As shown above, Jesus filled that "gap" Himself when He proclaimed the "Days of Vengeance" came in 70 AD.

Ram, there seems to be two time lines, consisting of 2000 years. One that's being used to build up the Body of Christ, and one that's being used to discipline God's natural line Judah. These two time lines seem to be heading to the intersection called the abomination of desolation, spoken of by both Daniel and Jesus. This event will mark the countdown of the last 3 1/2 years before the prophecy found in Isaiah 66:8 and Ezekiel 37 among others, is fulfilled.

God bless you Ram

Code.

I don't understand why you don't see Ezekiel 37 as fulfilled in the first century. God fulfilled His promise to put His Spirit in Israel (Ezek 37:14) at Pentecost, at which time He united the "two sticks" of the houses of Judah and Israel as one in Christ (Ezek 37:16) and then grafted in the Gentiles (Eph 2:15) to make one new man. This is confirmed in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31 that was made with both houses of Judah and Israel, and then the Gentiles were grafted in. All the prophecies cohere perfectly with the GOSPEL - for the Gospel is True Eschatology. And we have explicit confirmation that Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled in the New Covenant:
Ezekiel 37:26-28 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Paul declares that this was fulfilled in 2 Corithians. Note that the fulfillment involves both the Temple (Tabernacle) and God being with us:
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almight
And all this fits perfectly with the explicit teaching of Revelation that the New Jerusalem is the Church. Thus the preterist view of Revelation as fulfilled in the first cerntury fits perfectly with every other aspect of this integrated prophetic complex that was completed in the coming of our Great and Mighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, that's enough for a start.

God bless you my brother! Again, I would be truly delighted to dig deep with you on these issues.

Richard

Code breaker

12-16-2007, 01:27 PM

Richard Amiel McGough

12-16-2007, 01:42 PM

Hi again Ram,

Thank's for the info, I'll take a deeper look into all your comments. I can tell your very well versed in God's word. Though I don't agree with the amillennialist viewpoint, I do respect your intellectual prowess, I can certainly learn a few things. :pop2:

It will be a week or so before I can adequately respond to you arguments. It won't be on this Hanukkah thread. I will start a new thread or something.

God bless you,

Code

Hi White ;)
Hey there Code,

Sounds good! I look forward to your thoughtful response. And I am sure that I too will learn a lot.

And a new thread is a very good idea. They never seem to stay on any one topic, but it helps if we start them out on target.

God bless you my brother!

Richard

White

12-16-2007, 07:18 PM

Hi Richard,

Allow me to make an attempt to explain how and why I feel in my heart that I need to follow Torah Observance to the best of my knowledge. I think it will help you understand me better and all those who are in the same situation,
where the HOLY SPIRIT tugs at your heart and tells you to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul who was sent to witness to the Gentiles. Thus I say: I'm Paul in reverse- :lol: - my witness is to the Jewish People and Religious Leaders and unless I understand their customs my witness is empty and weightless. :pray:

IS there a difference between Judaism/Torah Observance and Messianic/Torah Observance? Are they the same??? yes/no!!! Torah Observance before the Cross imposed a curse/bondage on those that struggled to observe. For those whom it was a struggle, were doing it in their own strength and not by their faith in/and by the Grace of God. Abraham did it because it was on/in his heart and it was counted "unto him as righteousness". There were many others that were also "saved" by Grace prior to the Cross. They were righteous men and women. Jesus refers to them in the NT and ELIJAH and Moses appeared with Him on the Mountain of transfiguration, where Peter wanted to build 3 Sukkahs, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. (Feast of Sukkot / Tabernacle and Jesus "tabernacled" among us as HE is kept in the Tabernacle in the Catholic Church. )

As I mentioned many times and tried to convey in my many posts, it is NOT that we MUST observe TORAH to be saved. We are saved by the BLOOD OF CHRIST, but Messianic Torah Observance is done "Totally from within the heart". This desire for obedience in observing Torah comes from our believing faith in the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus/Y'shua - a Jewish Man and GOd's only begotten SON who died on the Cross to remove the curse/bondage that struggling to live an "observant" TORAH life put upon us. God knew that we could not/never would be able to live up to the demands of the "Law"...thus comes the struggle/curse. Confusing?

Once Christ's blood was shed for mankind, the curse was removed. Freedom to observe/follow Torah with JOY is now available to everyone who "believes" in the Messiah, believes in the heart and confesses with the mouth! :thumb:. And upon our receiving the Gift of salvation, God wrote HIS law upon our hearts. Therein lies our opportunity for beautiful, blessing giving obedience......to honor, LOVE, and obey our Heavenly Father. He has provided us the path to serve, honor, love and obey HIM in all things without the fear of curse. So if I light the candles on Friday night for Shabbat, or if I keep Hanukkah, Feast of Tabernacle, Passover or any of the other major Festivals (11 althogether), I do it because I want to feel closer to GOD, understanding HIS WAYS better and going out of my way to get closer to HIM by learning the Jewish way of life, which is 2000 years older than Christianity - (from 1995 BC with Father Abraham - the FIRST Jew - to Present , approx. 4000 years) and because Jesus says : "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE/LIGHT, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" - JOHN 14:6.

We know we will fail/sin as we are still in our state of imperfection and will stay in that condition until our "saved" soul departs our earthly body and ascends to the Heavens to be present for the Bridal reunion with our BrideGroom. We are a work in progress and herein lies the TRUTH that we are working-out our salvation.....our sanctification...our redemption... by being in tune with the HOLY SPIRIT, which will only come upon us once we have accepted JESUS CHRIST as LORD & SAVIOR. Amen. The Bible says that we may even "blaspheme JESUS" and repent, but the unpardonable sin is this: "Do not blaspheme the HOLY SPIRIT". Thus, when we walk with the HOLY SPIRIT and HE puts Torah observance on our hearts, we would grieve HIM gravely, if we did not follow His prompting. :pray::pray::pray: I pray that the LORD will reveal this hidden truth to you, RIchard. Isaiah Chapter 11 is a great Chapter to meditate on. (11:11ff)

The Mystery of the Torah lies in the Gospel of Christ. The Old concealed, the New revealed. GOD himself has divided the covenant........OT/NT, but they are not to be divided, they are to complement each other. God never intended for it to be divided. The Gospel is and always has been ONE GOSPEL and that is in our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE and only Son of God who shed HIS blood on the cross for all our sins, past, present and future.

I hope and pray that this will clarify my position and give you peace of mind, especially coming up on Christmas - which really refers to as "Christ's Mass", the most appropriate Mass would be the MIDNIGHT MASS on 12/24.

Thus let us scream for all to hear : Merry Christmas

SHalom to you and all on this Hanukkah post,
may the LORD have Mercy on us, His Servants,
and may HE bring Peace to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
with Jesus / Y'Shua in the hearts of all people. :pray::pray::pray:

Monique

White

12-16-2007, 07:32 PM

Addition: Pray some more :
I just read the following article after I posted the Hanukkah Post and I found it interesting that the Shabbat before Christmas the last Chapter of Genesis 49 is being read in all the Synaogogues. See below :

Torah Portion of the Week
Vayechi

The parsha, Torah portion, opens with Jacob on his deathbed 17 years after arriving in Egypt. Jacob blesses Joseph's two sons, Manasseh (Menashe) and Ephraim (to this day it is a tradition to bless our sons every Shabbat evening with the blessing, "May the Almighty make you like Ephraim and Manasseh" -- they grew up in the Diaspora amongst foreign influences and still remained devoted to the Torah. The Shabbat evening blessing for girls is "to be like Sarah, Rivka, Rachel and Leah.") He then individually blesses each of his sons. The blessings are prophetic and give reproof, where necessary.

A large retinue from Pharaoh's court accompanies the family to Hebron to bury Jacob in the Ma'arat Hamachpela, the burial cave purchased by Abraham. The Torah portion ends with the death of Joseph and his binding the Israelites to bring his remains with them for burial when they are redeemed from slavery and go to the land of Israel. Thus ends the book of Genesis!

* * *

Dvar Torah
based on Growth Through Torah by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

Before Jacob's death, the Torah tells us,

"And Ya'akov (Jacob) called to his sons, and he said, 'Gather together and I will tell you what will befall you in the end of days' " (when the Jewish people will be redeemed from galus, exile) (Genesis 49:1).
What did Ya'akov mean when he used the phrase "Gather together"?

When Ya'akov told his sons to gather together he meant that they should have achdus , unity amongst themselves. Only when there is unity among the descendants of Ya'akov can there be redemption. If there is not yet unity, it is not yet time for redemption.

With this we can understand what Yosef's brothers meant when they said to him later on (Genesis 50:16-7) that before Ya'akov's death he requested that Yosef forgive them. No where in the Torah is it recorded that Ya'akov asked Yosef to forgive his brothers. However, the commentary of the Shaloh tells us that the answer can be seen in our verse where Ya'akov asks the brothers to "Gather together". Ya'akov was asking all of them, including Yosef, for unity and the deep love that comes from unity. Where there is love, there is forgiveness.

This is a crucial issue for our time. People are very different from one another in many ways. However, if all the descendants of Ya'akov realize how important it is to have achdus, this unity will bring about a love that transcends the specific complaints one person has against another.

CANDLE LIGHTING - December 21
(or go to http://www.aish.com/shabbat/candlelighting.asp)

Richard Amiel McGough

12-16-2007, 11:42 PM

Hi Richard,

Allow me to make an attempt to explain how and why I feel in my heart that I need to follow Torah Observance to the best of my knowledge.

Hello my friend!

I am very happy that you have taken the time and the effort to explain you understanding of Scripture. It is most welcome here. :thumb:

I think it will help you understand me better and all those who are in the same situation, where the HOLY SPIRIT tugs at your heart and tells you to go against the Teachings of the Apostle Paul who was sent to witness to the Gentiles. Thus I say: I'm Paul in reverse- :lol: - my witness is to the Jewish People and Religious Leaders and unless I understand their customs my witness is empty and weightless. :pray:

Did you really intend that red sentence to come out that way? I mean, you don't really believe that God has directed you to go against the teachings of the New Testament do you?

IS there a difference between Judaism/Torah Observance and Messianic/Torah Observance? Are they the same??? yes/no!!! Torah Observance before the Cross imposed a curse/bondage on those that struggled to observe. For those whom it was a struggle, were doing it in their own strength and not by their faith in/and by the Grace of God. Abraham did it because it was on/in his heart and it was counted "unto him as righteousness".

Again, I must ask if you really intended this second red sentence to come out that way? The problem is that Abraham was declared righteous because of his FAITH, not because of His obedience to the Torah. That's the whole point of Romans 4:
Romans 4:11-12 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

There were many others that were also "saved" by Grace prior to the Cross.
All people who ever have been saved were saved by grace. No one was ever saved by the Law. The Law kills becuase of sin. It never saves anyone. "For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21)

They were righteous men and women. Jesus refers to them in the NT and ELIJAH and Moses appeared with Him on the Mountain of transfiguration, where Peter wanted to build 3 Sukkahs, one for Jesus, one for Moses and one for Elijah. (Feast of Sukkot / Tabernacle and Jesus "tabernacled" among us as HE is kept in the Tabernacle in the Catholic Church. )

As I mentioned many times and tried to convey in my many posts, it is NOT that we MUST observe TORAH to be saved. We are saved by the BLOOD OF CHRIST, but Messianic Torah Observance is done "Totally from within the heart". This desire for obedience in observing Torah comes from our believing faith in the saving Grace of our Lord Jesus/Y'shua - a Jewish Man and GOd's only begotten SON who died on the Cross to remove the curse/bondage that struggling to live an "observant" TORAH life put upon us. God knew that we could not/never would be able to live up to the demands of the "Law"...thus comes the struggle/curse. Confusing?

The error is that the Law does not help "perfect" your walk with God. That is why God inspired Paul to write to the Galatians. They thought that they would go back to the "Torah" and still be Christians. God said NO! Here's how Paul explained it:
Galatians 3:1-12 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you,Received ye the Spirit by the works of the LAW, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the LAW are under THE CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

God does not want you to try to obey Torah! That's why He sent Christ to die.

Once Christ's blood was shed for mankind, the curse was removed. Freedom to observe/follow Torah with JOY is now available to everyone who "believes" in the Messiah, believes in the heart and confesses with the mouth! :thumb:.

That teaching directly contradicts the Gospel as taught by Paul. If you want any Christian to accept your teaching, you MUST explain what God meant when He inspired Paul to write Galatians 5:1-9:
Galatians 5:1-9 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 ¶ Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

The "leaven" is the false doctrine of Torah keeping! Paul directly contradicts the circumcision commandment of the Torah to prove to you that no Christian should attempt to "keep Torah." This is the fundamental Gospel. If you reject this doctrine you reject the Gospel of Christ, regardless of how passionately you proclaim your love for Him. That is why God inspired Paul to begin the letter to the Galatians with these words:
Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was talking specifically abou the doctrine that Christians should "keep Torah."

And upon our receiving the Gift of salvation, God wrote HIS law upon our hearts. Therein lies our opportunity for beautiful, blessing giving obedience......to honor, LOVE, and obey our Heavenly Father.

Exactly correct! And does God command Christians to keep Torah? No! Therefore, if you want to obey God, you will obey His Word which tells you that you must keep the WHOLE TORAH without failing in a single point if you want to please Him through "keeping Torah." You are utterly deceived if you think that the mighty and the terrible God who gave His Son to redeem us from the curse of Torah is pleased to see HIS CHILDREN fraudulently playing with the Torah to please their own selves, as if they are doing something for Him! The sorry truth is that you are trampling God's Word underfoot when you disregard what He has revealed through His inspired Apostle.

He has provided us the path to serve, honor, love and obey HIM in all things without the fear of curse.

True! And who is that path? Jesus is the Way that leads to life. YOu have been been deceivd my friend if you believe that you will find the way to God through the Torah. Jesus is the Way! He died to free you from the CURSE of the Law. I am pleading with you to consider the Holy Word of Almighty God! He has revealed everything with perfect clarity in His Bible. Your doctrine of "Christian Torah keeping" is a heresy and an abomination in the sight of Almighty God.

So if I light the candles on Friday night for Shabbat, or if I keep Hanukkah, Feast of Tabernacle, Passover or any of the other major Festivals (11 althogether), I do it because I want to feel closer to GOD, understanding HIS WAYS better and going out of my way to get closer to HIM by learning the Jewish way of life, which is 2000 years older than Christianity - (from 1995 BC with Father Abraham - the FIRST Jew - to Present , approx. 4000 years) and because Jesus says : "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE/LIGHT, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME" - JOHN 14:6.

Yes, if you like to light your candles and act out the Jewish rituals of Shabbat, that is perfectly fine. The Bible says you can not be judged for that. But that is just your personal preference, and I simply could not care less what you do in that respect. You are utterly free, my friend. But that is not what we are talking about. You have presented Torah keeping as if it were a command from Almighty God. You have argued that we should keep Torah because it has not been "done away with." Those errors are so serous that God wrote a whole book (and many parts of many others) to warn HIS PEOPLE away from falling back under the Torah.

We know we will fail/sin as we are still in our state of imperfection and will stay in that condition until our "saved" soul departs our earthly body and ascends to the Heavens to be present for the Bridal reunion with our BrideGroom. We are a work in progress and herein lies the TRUTH that we are working-out our salvation.....our sanctification...our redemption... by being in tune with the HOLY SPIRIT, which will only come upon us once we have accepted JESUS CHRIST as LORD & SAVIOR. Amen. The Bible says that we may even "blaspheme JESUS" and repent, but the unpardonable sin is this: "Do not blaspheme the HOLY SPIRIT". Thus, when we walk with the HOLY SPIRIT and HE puts Torah observance on our hearts, we would grieve HIM gravely, if we did not follow His prompting. :pray::pray::pray: I pray that the LORD will reveal this hidden truth to you, RIchard. Isaiah Chapter 11 is a great Chapter to meditate on. (11:11ff)

Jesus Christ would never contradict His Own Word as revealed in the Holy Bible. And the Bible condemns "Christian Torah keeping" in no uncertain terms. Therefore, I see only three possibilities:

1) You misunderstood the prompting from God's Spirit,
2) You misunderstood the Scriptures,
3) been prompted by a spirit other than that of God.

The Mystery of the Torah lies in the Gospel of Christ. The Old concealed, the New revealed. GOD himself has divided the covenant........OT/NT, but they are not to be divided, they are to complement each other. God never intended for it to be divided. The Gospel is and always has been ONE GOSPEL and that is in our Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE and only Son of God who shed HIS blood on the cross for all our sins, past, present and future.

Yes, the Gospel is One Gospel. But hte Torah is NOT the Gospel! Have you never read what the New Testament says about the Torah?
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Have you not noticed that you write as if you have not read anything that the New Testament Epistles say about the Law? Why is that? Why do you ignore God's Word on this issue, and choose instead to go your own way? I have confronted you with these Scriptures over and over and over again for months on end and you have never responded to them! Please explain your understanding of Paul's teaching on the Torah. Please! This has been going on far too long.

I hope and pray that this will clarify my position and give you peace of mind, especially coming up on Christmas - which really refers to as "Christ's Mass", the most appropriate Mass would be the MIDNIGHT MASS on 12/24.

The unfortunate truth is, my friend, that it "clarifies" the sad fact that you have not responded to God's Word on this very important issue. I pray you will soon.

Richard

White

12-20-2007, 11:14 PM

Hello,
I posted this last Sunday night - see below GENESIS 49:1 especially - GATHER TOGETHER AND I WILL TELL YOU WHAT WILL BEFALL YOU IN THE END OF DAYS"

************
Dvar Torah
based on Growth Through Torah by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin

Before Jacob's death, the Torah tells us,

"And Ya'akov (Jacob) called to his sons, and he said, 'Gather together and I will tell you what will befall you in the end of days' " (when the Jewish people will be redeemed from galus, exile) (Genesis 49:1).
What did Ya'akov mean when he used the phrase "Gather together"?

***************
Attending my Catholic Church on Monday Morning - I was stunned to discover that the Church actually was reading the following :

GENESIS 49:2 then skip to 49:8-10

To make it clear: I found the above article and posted it, especially Genesis 49:1 and the very next morning, the following verse is read in all the Catholic Churches around the world :

GENESIS 49:2 "Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob, listen to Israel, your
father."

v. 8-10: You Judah, shall your brothers praise, your hand on the neck
of your enemies; the sons of your father shall bo down to
you. Judah like a lion's whelp.... 10 - the scepter never
shall depart from Judah, or the mace from between his legs.

It might not look to you that I walk with the Holy SPirit but I would say that this is pretty good proof that I am. Not only did the Catholic Church read exactly the continueing verse from Genesis 49 (the reading did start with verse 2, totally ignoring verse 1 and the jumped to verse 8-10 - in my opinion the most important passage in all scripture : "THE SCEPTER SHALL NEVER DEPART FROM JUDAH" but again, I want to stress that this will be AFTER the JEWS/JUDAH accept JESUS / Y'SHUA as MESSIAH on a large scale, not before.) - but at the same time this verse in Genesis 49:1 is talking about what will happen to the 12 tribes "in the end of days" - when the Jewish people will be redeemed from exile as Rabbi Zelig Pliskin states so clearly.

Last Monday was the only day the Church reads from this particular passage before Christmas, but I continually ask the LORD for Signs and Wonders to confirm my steps. This was a great confirmation that I am walking with the Holy Spirit contrary to Richard's last post claiming that I follow a "Spirit other than God's". May the LORD JESUS - My LORD and SAVIOR - be the judge on this matter and the state of my soul and not Richard.

I have continually stressed that my witness is to the Jewish People and as such I need to understand their customs and beliefs. That is why I said "I'm Paul in reverse" - Paul was sent to the Gentiles :
Acts 18:6
But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

As Genesis 49:1 clearly asks is that the "12 Tribes Gather Together" and my many posts on this forum have given witness to my work in this respect. The Holy SPirit is grieved when brethren "in Christ" attack each other, when it is crystal clear that GOD is not finished with the Jewish People, HE loves them and HE has a plan that is a plan for a hope and a future with MESSIAH Y'SHUA / JESUS. I would like to quote Paul who is the object of much scorn and misunderstanding especially when interpreted by the Rabbis who after nearly 2000 years proclaim that PAUL / SAUL taught against TORAH. But here are Paul's most famous words:

"Love is patient, love is kind,... love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the PERFECT COMES, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present, we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present, I know partially, then I shall know fully as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatet of these is L O V E. :pray::pray::pray:

When Jacob says "Gather together" he means "Gather together and love one another" - How then can we overcome the obstacles and proclaim the TRUE GOD of ISRAEL to the Jewish People, unless we practice what HE commands of us : "That is LOVE ONE ANOTHER" or as Corinthian 14:1 says : "PURSUE LOVE" for the sake of the KINGDOM of God. :yo:

Let us be open to the fact that the Bible is written by Jews for the Jews to save the Jews because JESUS says in John 4:22 : "You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because "]"SALVATION is from the Jews".[/COLOR]

SHalom to Jerusalem and the Holy Land
Shalom to Richard and the Biblewheel Gang this Christmas
Shalom to all who follow the leading of the Holy SPirit to unite & love

Monique

Acts 21:20
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
Acts 25:8
Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."Acts 28:17
[ Paul Preaches at Rome Under Guard ] Three days later he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: "My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.
Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Romans 15:27
They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Galatians 2:7
On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

And here is the most important passage concerning this post on Torah observance etc.

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law

I rest my case.
Merry Christmas - Happy New Year to all

Shalom Richard & Everybody.